Scouring the Thai government’s official news coverage, a brief item caught my attention.
The King is currently being honoured as the “Father of Thai Innovation” in an exhibition at the Queen Sirikit National Convention Centre. One focus of the exhibition is royal activities where “the King’s innovation has succeeded in turning acidic soils in some parts of the south into arable land, thus improving local people’s livelihood”.
I assume the exhibition is open to the public. In light of recent debates here at New Mandala that have focussed on self-sufficiency and royal ideas, readers in Bangkok may be keen to see the exhibition for themselves.
62 responses so far ↓
1 Raja Pikhaat // Oct 8, 2006 at 6:15 pm
The King’s “success” in draining the Bachoh peat forests (paa phru) in Narathiwat did initially reduce the acidity of the soil and reduce flooding.
But after a couple of years, acidity actually increased and surrounding lands became unsuitable for cultivation or support of villagers. Flooding also increased.
Drainage dried out the upper layer of peat soil during the dry season and made the land much more susceptible to fires. The soil became highly compacted and eroded easily, allowing the pyrite layer that is underneath the top layer of soil to be exposed to the air. Oxidation turned this into ferrous sulphate and released strong sulphuric acid. Thus, during the rainy season, the lands that the drainage canals passed through also became acidic, ruining it. In addition, compactation of peat layer soil actually *increased* flood levels near the drained areas. For full details, read the UN Environmental Program’s 1988 report on Sustainable Development of Natural Resources.
In Thailand, the word responsibility (“rab phid chob”) literally means “accept failure and favor”. Despite his good intentions, the King should take full responsibility for the destruction of the peat forest and the livelihood of the people of Narathiwat.
2 Vichai N // Oct 8, 2006 at 7:32 pm
I did pick peg you all as ‘malicious’ anti-Thai monarchy recruited by Thaksin to nitpick and quibble on Thailand’s most revered institution, HMK.
Why did it take you all so long to show your ugly faces?
By the way you better rush out all your materials because your paymaster Thaksin would soon be running out dirty cash to pay you all. The asset/corruption commissions are working double-time and guess what, each day about a dozen mega-corruption by Thaksin & Gang just kept popping up!
Come on boys . . . rush your printing presses. Forget about scholarly research and all that bull . . . your high-falutin style will impress no one!
3 Ant // Oct 9, 2006 at 12:21 pm
Do you think we are surprised by this? Are we supposed to think that the same wouldn’t/couldn’t be said of any Thai primeminister or, for that matter, any Thai person in a position of significant power in Thailand, were all subject to the same scrutiny that Thaksin is at the moment?
For the record I am reasonably cautious of any institution that can, through law, censor criticism to the degree that the institution of the Thai monarchy can. Anti-Thai monarchy I am not but nor am I ingnorant of some of its less glorious moments in history (see 1976 coup, again). and how often times the world seems to be happier to embrace “the emperor’s new clothes” as failed project after failed project is called a success such as environmental ventures and agricultural projects that HMK has been involved in… I think we all know the success and failures of the Doi Tung opium erradication/crop substitution project and the numerous dams around the country for example, as well as the decades of monoculturural re-aforestation that occurred until the nineties. This one in Narathiwat is just one in a lolng line of many.
4 Patrick Jory // Oct 9, 2006 at 1:08 pm
Thanks Raja Phikhaat for the interesting post about the destruction of the Bajoh forest in Narathiwat by a royal project, no doubt one of many dismal failures of royal projects that can not be declared failures because of lese majeste. Could I draw your attention to another royal project that has ruined the livelihoods of hundreds of thousands of villagers in Nakhon Si Thammarat province, the Pak Panang Basin Development Project. The Pak Panang basin region was once the rice bowl of southern Thailand, and rivalled the rice production of the Rangsit region. This royal project involved building a number of dams and irrigation systems which would divide the Pak Panang basin into a “salt water zone” and a “fresh water zone”. The king took the major role in conceiving and overseeing the project, with the military, the bureaucracy and crony contractors carrying out the implementation. The result has been an environmental catastrophe, destroying the unique “3 water” ecosystem of the region which has lead to the extinction of fish species, greatly increased soil salinity, the dying out of local vegetation including valuable economic species such as the nipa palm, water stagnation, increased flooding, and the resulting increased impoverishment of the region. Villagers had no say whatsoever in the implementation of the project. Disasters such as this one are only possible because once a project has the royal brand it is impossible to criticize. A perfect example of Thai-style democracy.
5 Ant // Oct 9, 2006 at 7:31 pm
Both very interesting and well detailed accounts (Patrick and Raja). Do either of you get the impression that the present monarch’s activities resemble more a fascination for the potential of environmental engineering and experimentation, with the Thai state as his work shop, than a well thought out or innovative execution of a project/ideas? I certainly do, and in my experience and contra to the received wisdom regarding the popularity of the king, know many a lower ranking govt official and local farmer who often bemoan this very point. Father of innovation I think is stretching it a bit as with out critique and feedback how can someone be innovative…the UN gave him an award for what outside of Thailand is called horticulture, if I remember correctly…are we to see “Emperor’s new clothes” become replaced in the English vernacular by “Kings innovation”, another Siamese contribution to the langauge, like “white elephant” before it?
6 Vichai N // Oct 9, 2006 at 8:58 pm
You can practice all your doctoral prattle in this forum . . I learned that new word yesterday: BLOVIATE.
The word applies to you all exactly.
Dr. Jory, Dr. Walker and the The Little Ant. Enjoy your conference dears.
7 Raja Pikhaat // Oct 9, 2006 at 9:14 pm
Patrick Jory, let me provide some context to the others for what the horror the King inflicted upon Pak Panang.
Pak Panang is an estuary, the largest in South Thailand. The Pak Panang river plays a channeling flood waters during the rainy season into the Gulf of Thailand. Similar to the Chao Phraya, Mekhong, and Yellow River deltas, the lands along the Pak Panang river were incredibly fertile. The estuary itself played an important role in the ecosystem, and the seas around it were rich in fish and sea-life. Pak Panag was the rice-bowl of the kingdoms of Nakhon Srithammarat for over 2,000 years.
Like all estuaries, Pak Panang is prone to flooding when water can’t reach the Gulf fast enough and passes through homes and agricultural land. The major event that got the King’s attention was the 1989 flood.
The King’s idea was to widen and dredge the estuary to increase the natural capacity of the river to carry floodwater. The problem was that during the dry season, the saltwater of the Gulf would creep upstream, ruining the land in the area. Significantly increased salinity levels have been measured all the way up to Cha-uat district, 100KM up the river!
The King’s solution to this was to build massive levees to prevent saltwater incursion. This really screwed up the ecosystem in the area, as Patrick noted.
Today, Pak Panang is a wasteland, with abandoned rice-mills along the riverbanks and the stench of rotting stagnant salty water from the river. The government talks of “rehabilitation” of Pak Panang and the people have been forced to take hand-outs – HAND OUTS! – from western aid agencies. Kings had ruled in Pak Panang since the ancestors of the Chakri were still illiterate farmers in China, and today that once proud people have to rely on handouts…
Patrick also mentioned how the King micromanaged the projects, helping to line the pockets of his “chlear’ers”. The entire project cost over $600 million – that’s US dollars, not Baht. PM Banharn’s construction companies made over $100 million on the project.
When the people of Nakhonsrithammarat demonstrated against the projects, he shut them up by linking the projects to the prestige of his thrown by declaring that he wanted the project finished by his 50-year Jubilee in 1996. Then he said “We don’t want to be confronted with protests. It is tiring and useless.”
The King salted the earth of Nakhon, but the people of Nakhon are proud and fierce and with long memories. The simpletons of Bangkok and Isaan might listen to his propaganda, but Nakhon people will not rest until they see justice.
8 Patrick Jory // Oct 9, 2006 at 10:13 pm
Many thanks Raja Phikhaat (how do you get by with that name?) for filling in the gaps. You have an excellent knowledge of the project. You forgot to mention the “Build a House for Our Father” project, which entails the construction of a new palace at Pak Panang right next to the dam project which the king will never visit – just like the other one at Phromkhiri, ha ha – which has costed hundreds of millions of baht. Can you believe it that now they dare to ask for donations to complete it?!). This is the bitterness the villagers have to swallow. Yes, “horror” is not too strong a word for the way they’ve been treated.
And these poor villagers have to endure the “Holy Foot of the Powerful Lord Over our Head” preaching to them about self-sufficiency, after his project has destroyed that very thing!
But I am not as confident as you that the “people of Nakhon” will see justice.
9 nganadeeleg // Oct 9, 2006 at 11:28 pm
Patrick – presumably you have written to the palace raising your specific concerns regarding the “people of Nakhon”?
What was the response?
10 Ant // Oct 10, 2006 at 12:51 am
From 1989 through to 1992 I was working in Northern Thailand in the province of Chiangrai and towards the end of 1992 was struck by an anomolous appearance of three Akha villages in a previously uninhabited area that occurred over a period of about two months or so. Talking to some of the people in the village myself and some Thai colleagues managed to ascertain that the villages (and villagers) had come from doi tung where they had had to flee as they were unable to support themselves and their families due to extortion by govt (royal project) officials and as the opium erradication through cash crop replacement scheme failed due to lack of roads and transport for their goods, less than a year later all three villages had been rounded up by police and expelled to Burma. In practice sethakhit phor pieng is, for those who are touched by the royal projects probably better translated as “sub-subsistence economy”, I’m not an economist (or Dr of anything for that matter) but according to my sums that would translate to “poverty economy”.
11 Vichai N // Oct 10, 2006 at 1:33 am
Dr. Patric Jory, Dr. Andrew Walker and the little Ant,
All I asked you to do is to articulate how you all arrived at that ridiculous lie that Thailand’s Sufficiency Economy was designed to keep Thailand’s poor POOR. And you have not responded for more than week now.
And now you start rattling of little nonsense about acidity here and there at some changwats in Thailand that to be truthful I am totally unawares about.
If all the lies you print here are true, how is it that none of these were ever reported by Time Magazine, Newsweek, Far Eastern Economic Review or any of the thousand independent publications around the world?
12 Ant // Oct 10, 2006 at 9:30 am
Anyone care to recount, for Vichai’s sake, the details of the 2002 expulsion of the two far eastern economic review journalists for reporting about Thaksin’s attack on the King, after the world press rallie behind them when they were imprisoned and going to be charged with lesse Majeste? This is all I remember.
13 screwed-up thai // Oct 10, 2006 at 3:04 pm
there is a movement / effort now of elivating the old man to be buddha equal like!! tell me the difference between north korean and thailand. while the first has the gut to face the world, holding on to its nonsese but true to its hearts ideology, the latter is rather a “performing arts” for the last 60 years of survival, and happy times!! disguised in the modern society. the latest act is the birthday party. u wonder what would happen if the coup took place before the party? how many would show up?
sick of being cursed as thai!
so naive.
14 Confused // Oct 11, 2006 at 4:15 am
Ant,
The two journalists weren’t imprisoned and it was Thaksin who blacklisted them from re-entering the country, not the king. Ask the two journalists for yourself (they’re British). And they didn’t commit the lese majeste, Thaksin was angry that the article ridicule him so he charged them for committing lese majeste. Thaksin brought that charge against them to save his own face, you know put the blame on someone else. Next time get your facts straight. And keep your brain clean because it is a mess.
15 Bangkok Pundit // Oct 11, 2006 at 8:24 am
Confused: Blacklisted them for re-entering the country? They were never deported, let alone blacklisted. Perhaps, you should read up on Supreme Court cases on lese majeste and see how strictly the law was enforced.
Did Crispin and Tasker make mention of the Royal Family in the FEER article? Yes, they did. Given the strict line that the Supreme Court has taken when interpreting the lese majeste law, it was certainly no suprise that the police would take action.
Case in point, how about the young man in the 1980s who advocated that Thailand should abolish the monarchy and set up a republic? Was that lese majeste? The court thought so and sent him to jail for 8 years.*
* Streckfuss, David Eirich. 1998 . “The poetics of subversion: Civil liberty and lese-majeste in the modern Thai state.” Ph.D. dissertation, The University of Wisconsin-Madison p218
16 ngandeeleg // Oct 11, 2006 at 9:07 am
A thai repubic – sounds interesting, however I think I would prefer the King to be the ’strongman’ rather than another type of strongman.
17 Vichai N // Oct 11, 2006 at 12:47 pm
What is with you guys . . now BKKPundit has to come to rescue Dr. Patrick Jory, Dr. Andrew Walker and that ubiquitous little Ant?
I caught you with that lie “Sufficiency Economy will keep the Thai poor POOR”, I aske you all to articulate how you arrived at your authoritative conclusion, with or without help of Dr. BkkPundit, and you keep on your diversions and evasions. That was a trick by Thaksin S. that did not work, may I remind you guys.
If you lied, then admit it!
That is the reason I continue to believe that you created this forum to carry on a malicious campaign of misinformation, for the benefit of your patron Thaksin Shinawatra, against the Thai monarchy!
Now I am beginning to wonder whether any of you have real doctoral degrees guys . . . Some university at Houston, Texas perhaps?
18 Ant // Oct 11, 2006 at 6:58 pm
Confused,
my point was not that the king had done anything nor that the journalists were jailed, rather that the potential for such action is an immanent reality in Thailand and a likely outcome of any critical reporting on the king . The Journalists were held in police custody and were going to be expelled until the international press got behind them and stopped it. Point is, report about the king in a negative way and you aren’t going to get away with it, nor is the article likely to see the light of day for too long, this in response to Vichai’s question regarding the journalistic evidence of the discussion regarding the failure and consequences of the Kings “innovative” projects.
Vichai,
You are impossible to reason with. All of your arch nemisis list have responded to your sufficiency-economy proof question, in one form or another. No one is lying about it. Its what we think and are critiquing the concept based on the fact that we believe that it is keyed to the detriment of the poor. Further “proof” could be provided but apart from ubiquitous l’il ol me, I don’t think the others take you seriously enough to bother responding. I would say to you, what’s so hard to understand about a response to poverty or being poor of, ” learn to live within your means” as being a call for the perpetuation of poverty. It doesn’t rally the poor to aspire to more than what they have, to attempt to attain say a middle-class level of living, on the contray it tells them not to, ipso facto is keyed to keeping them poor. Do you understand?
19 nganadeeleg // Oct 11, 2006 at 7:30 pm
My understanding of the Kings ’sufficiency economy’ is that it does not only apply to the poor, but to all classes.
I still think it is more an ‘anti greed’ philosphy than an aim to keep poeple poor.
20 Confused // Oct 11, 2006 at 8:07 pm
nganadeeleg made good short comments in several posts above, why doesn’t anyone listen?
21 Ant // Oct 11, 2006 at 8:16 pm
At best it is a status quo philosophy that if you are poor stay poor if you are middle-class stay middle-class and if you are rich (like the King) stay rich…neofeudalism, perhaps?
22 ThaiTruth // Apr 21, 2007 at 5:02 am
HMK once told students around October 1973 to “study. That is your duty, leave politics alone.” While military men were refusing to stay in their barracks. Then again, in the 90s, he said, “They can say I am political. Even though I am King, I am also a Thai, I have my right to say my opinion.” Hardly fulfilling the duty of a constitutional monarch, and not to mention, using double standards. I think he spoke about double standards later on, but not in an apologetic way. I’d rather have a republican strongman than an “Xerxes–I am a god and am above criticism” type.
23 nganadeeleg // Apr 21, 2007 at 9:46 am
I’d rather have a republican strongman than an “Xerxes–I am a god and am above criticism” type.
This is from the King’s 2005 birthday speech:
“Actually, I must also be criticised. I am not afraid if the criticism concerns what I do wrong, because then I know. Because if you say the king cannot be criticised, it means that the king is not human”
ThaiTruth: Is your prefered strongman a Thaksin type?
(accepting criticism, apologising or even admitting mistakes were not his strong points)
24 Srithanonchai // Apr 21, 2007 at 6:30 pm
But the King’s statement was only aimed at publicly criticizing Thaksin, not at opening up the King for criticism!
25 Srithanonchai // Apr 22, 2007 at 2:09 am
King’s “Sufficiency One” unvailed:
King’s new aircraft arrives, with ‘Air Force One’ in reserve
The “Air Force One” that served then prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra is now a spare aircraft for His Majesty the King.
His Majesty’s new personal aircraft is a Boeing 737-800, which left Seattle, Washington, on Sunday and landed at 11.30am yesterday, after making refuelling stops in Hawaii and Saipan.
“Air Force One”, an Airbus ACJ319, carries the official name “Thai Khu Fa”, from the building inside the Government House compound. The name will be removed and replaced by “Royal Thai Air Force”. The plane will also be repainted in traditional livery, white on the fuselage with light and dark blue stripes from nose to tail.
A Boeing 737-400, which currently serves as the King’s aircraft, will be decommissioned in three years after 13 years in operation, Air Force spokesman Group Captain Monthol Satchukorn said.
The Air Force has another Airbus, a 319-300 model, to use as His Majesty’s spare plane. Both Airbuses are available for members of the immediate royal family.
The Boeing 737-800 was produced exclusively by the American manufacturer to honour His Majesty’s 60th year on the throne.
Boeing was chosen as the supplier because Air Force pilots and maintenance crews are thoroughly familiar with Boeing airliners.
The new 737-800’s passenger cabin will be decorated by artists from the Fine Arts Department and fitted with emergency medical equipment and a noise-reduction system.
The Nation April 21, 2007
26 Ad // Apr 22, 2007 at 3:58 pm
For his years of unstinting service and dedication to the Thai people and for his excellent Kingship of Thailand, by ’sufficiency theory’ HMK Bhumibhol deserve more than sufficiently deserved to be rewarded.
Why? Were you, Srithanonchai, suggesting a rename for the King’s new plane?
I myself would have been sufficiently insulted myself if Thaksin’s old plane is offerred to me. I would take economy class anytime rather than ride in Thaksin’s old plane or cars.
27 gaudiefreak // Oct 11, 2007 at 2:47 am
The Thai monarchy is not what it seems.
The king, Bhumibol, is protrayed as the great, ‘apolitical’, kind gracious, figurehead who often steps in to save Thai democracy.
In fact, in the late 1950’s he – as well as “monarchy Inc.” – sided with Sarin, a brutal dictator, a vain womaniser, an opium trafficker, and a brutal murderer and torturer.
This is the kind of “mates” the king of Thailand has courted in the past to preserve the Chakri lineage. His sentiments often lie on the side of the fascists.
In the late 1990’s, when Nobel Peace Laureates convened in Bangkok to show solidarity for Aung San Suu Kyi, the democracy leader imprisoned in Burma, they were astonished to hear the King of Thailand state that the military regime was the best form of government for Burma. This is a junta that tortures and kills people – Buddhist monks included (of the Theravada school to which Thailand also subscribes)
Indeed, the “Siam Cement Company”, a huge industrial conglomerate established by a former king of Thailand around the turn of the 19th century – and which is still mainly owned by the Thai Crown today – has extensive business interests in Burma. This is a company, owned in large part by the king of Thailand, that does business with thugs that kill and beat up Buddhist monks.
And yet the King of Thailand – thanks to the extensive PR lobby that promote gullible adoration of the monarchy by its people – is potrayed as a “dammarajah”, almost a Buddha incarnate.
The last New Year speech, the King of Thailand states the he is an ordinary man, and that it is right for people to question or criticise him, as it is just to criticise any leaders in a supposed “democracy”.
It’s just that if anyone did so, they’d be charged with the severe lesse majeste laws and probably sent to prison. These are the same lesse majeste laws that the King’s privy council is seeking to strengthen in the new constituion Thailand is currently developing after the last coup. Embellisments to this constitution ban media coverage of any cases involving lesse majeste, as well as increased legal protection for members of the pirvy council (the representatives chosen by the king).
No-one belittles the Thai people’s humble adoration of a magical mystical figure of a fairytale king. But it might be a good idea for the country as a whole to start opening its eyes to a few harsh realities.
Read “The King Never Smiles” by Paul Hanley, and you might get an altogether different picture of the “apolitical” monarch of Thailand.
28 gaudiefreak // Oct 11, 2007 at 1:45 pm
By, th’ way: that last comment was very rushed. I meant to say : “Sarit” – NOT “Sarin”
Sarit was the brutal dictator and opium trafficker with which the Thai Royal family aligned themselves.
When Sarit went to the US (who was also a very good mate of Sarit – both he and the Thai king were enlisted by the US as “Cold War Warriors”)….the king publicly presented Sarit with a bouquet of flowers.
There are countless copies of documents down on record that support the fact that the the brutal Sarit was the monarchists’ “strong arm man”. During this period, the Thai Royal family invested in business ventures with the ruling generals. These generals were involved in legal and illegal activities.
29 sueksit nanhuay // May 28, 2008 at 2:40 pm
So we have this father of abrasive innovation, to be exact. And nowadays we have this super-being before whom even the Buddha must take a far second place.
30 k2h // May 30, 2008 at 6:58 am
I think that the “image-makers” who work behind the scene should be well rewarded for the making of super-being before whom even the Bhuddah must take a far second place, you can say that again Khun Sueksit Nanhuay!!
31 Mariner // May 30, 2008 at 12:51 pm
I guess if the authorities haven’t the guts to close down this website we can expect to see more of the likes of Vichai N posting their apologist comments as a sort of rear guard action. To me it’s all very simple: we have all (kings, queens, roadsweepers) done good things, bad things, acted intelligently, acted stupidly. Is it really too much, Mr. Vichai, to admit as much? to admit the plain simple truth?
32 Jop // May 30, 2008 at 8:16 pm
I saw some saying the doi tung project was a failure. But in fact The Doi Tung Development Project was awarded permission by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) to affix the UNODC label on Doi Tung products.
The UNODC label reads: “United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. The sale of this product contributes to the achievement of drug free world. Through alternative sustainable development, villagers who once depended on opium production and use can now earn secure legitimate incomes by making these products.”
See the following news article just to prove how successful the program is considered:
http://www.unodc.un.or.th/photo-news/2006/05-doitung.html
It is a shame that people smear others with lies. I hope none of those guilty of this are Thai because the King has done so much for Thailand.
Shame on you.
33 Jop // May 30, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Would like to share with you all further the fact that the King is internationally renown for his development/humanitarian achievements:
1) UN Development Programme (UNDP)’s Human Development Lifetime Achievement Award
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=18625&Cr=Thai&Cr1=
2) Norman Borlaug Medallion http://www.worldfoodprize.org/press_room/2006/october/thai-king-borlaug-medallion.htm
3) United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) awarded His Majesty the Philae Medal in recognition of His Majesty’s outstanding contributions in rural development and quality of life promotion.
4) the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) awarded His Majesty the UNEP Gold Medal of Distinction in recognition of long dedicated, exemplary and eminent contributions to the improvement of the environment and nature conservation.
5) the World Bank presented the Award of Recognition of technical and development accomplishment in the promotion of the vetiver technology international.
6) the United Nations International Drug Control Programme (UNDCP) presented the Award of Appreciation in recognition of His Majesty’s outstanding contributions to drug control efforts in Thailand.
7) the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) awarded His Majesty the Agricola Medal in recognition of HisMajesty’s devotion to the well-being and happiness of all people in Thailand, particularly those who till the soil, lend the waters and nurture the forests.
9) the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) presented the Tele Food Medal in recognition of His Majesty’s dedication to Thailand’s agriculture development, with the aim of raising the farmers’ standard of living and establishing food security.
10) the World Health Organization (WHO) presented theWHO Plaque in recognition of His Majesty’s unstinting and powerful moral leadership and example in public health.
11) International Merit Award, in recognition of His Majesty’s contribution to the use of vetiver for soil conservation and environmental improvement, presented by the International Erosion Control Association
12) ICCIDD Gold Medal, in recognition of His Majesty’s leadership, guidance and direction to the National IDD Control Project, presented by International Council for the Control of Iodine Deficiency Disorders (ICCIDD)
13) Lions Humanitarian Award, in recognition of His Majesty’s passionate and personal interest in, and devotion to, improving the quality of life and well-being of the Thai people, especially in the areas of health and education, presented by the International Association of Lions Clubs
14) UN-Habitat Scroll of Honour Award (special citation) in recognition of His Majesty’s outstanding contribution to sustaining habitats and improving the quality of the Thai people’s lives, presented by United Nations Human Settlements Programme
Ok, I am gonna stop now because to list any more would be pointless as i don’t think any more proof is needed to make my case. I had also not bothered to provide all links to prove the truth of the above as anyone who wants to check can just do an online search for themselves.
So I can expect that some here are gonna say all these respectable international organizations were all “fooled” into thinking that the King is worthy of receiving these awards?
Are some gonna argue that the King got them because of his status? Because that is certainly not true. Show me a monarch of any other country that has received even half the amount of awards the Thai king has.
So it’ clearly not about status. It is about achievements. Worthy achievements.
34 Teth // May 31, 2008 at 5:28 am
So I can expect that some here are gonna say all these respectable international organizations were all “fooled” into thinking that the King is worthy of receiving these awards?
No, but can you name anyone else have received these awards?
Its called international diplomacy. Just like how HMK probably has the most number of honorary degrees to his name.
Let me do a little critical analysis of your medal list.
1) UN Development Programme (UNDP)’s Human Development Lifetime Achievement Award – HMK was the first ever recipient of this award. They may not have created it for him, but its far from prestigious–yet.
2) Norman Borlaug Medallion
Again, HMK is first to receive this prize, which is itself a “second place” prize for people who not normally get a “World Food Prize”.
Basically is HMK second tier to these Laureates?
3) United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) awarded His Majesty the Philae Medal in recognition of His Majesty’s outstanding contributions in rural development and quality of life promotion.
A search in Google for the Philae Medal shows only 4 pages of results (if you search “Philae Medal” with the parentheses). Most of these results are websites from Thailand, but the only non-Thai website mentioning the Philae Medal and UNESCO says that “UNESCO itself is selling a ‘Philae Medal.’ Struck in gold, silver and bronze, the medal commemorates a campaign that will not only save “The Pearl of Egypt” but, when the mammoth job is completed two years from now, provide it with a new setting worthy of the old.” Apparently the Philae Medal is part of a campaign to save Philae.
The link
You can buy a Philae medal from Unesco here
4) the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) awarded His Majesty the UNEP Gold Medal of Distinction in recognition of long dedicated, exemplary and eminent contributions to the improvement of the environment and nature conservation.
I cannot even find who else has received this award. The UNEP’s website only lists 2 awards it gives, the Sasakawa Prize and Champions of the Earth.
UNEP Awards
And so forth…. Most of these prizes are not on any main page of their respective agencies. Surprising, seeing that these prizes are supposed to publicly honor their recipients? Not good if most of the world doesn’t know the prize exists.
Google searches for these prizes will usually bring up Thai websites. Surprising again? So much for “international” recognition. As I said, they are acts of diplomacy.
The whole point of this is not to “smear” HMK as you claim. I merely want Thai people to take a step back and view the monarchy is a reasonable light. Or is it only acceptable to give the monarchy over-the-top praise?
BTW, these prizes don’t make him the “Father of Thai innovation”. Hopefully you can spot the ridiculousness of “Thai innovation”.
35 Reg Varney // May 31, 2008 at 11:46 am
Well done Teth. Excellent work. Most of these awards are given to the king because Thai diplomats are ordered to go out and find awards that he can receive. It is all a part of the myth-making.
Jop – read something, anything, critical of the king and stop being such a propagandist.
36 Jop // May 31, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Yeah, i read some critical remarks about the King and felt compelled to say something. It was the feeling of injustice of people making unfair criticism.
In any case, it seems there are people here who, once they read some positive comments made about the King, are just as quick to jump in and try to refute it.
While Kofi Annan clearly made a point to say that this was the first ever UNDP Lifetime Award being granted to anyone, obviously making a point that the King’s achievements was truly so exceptional that he deserved something new to be distinguished from others, the spin doctors here were quick to suggest otherwise.
Funnily enough, the spin doctors also want us to believe that Thailand has a very talented foreign service who could go around the world and manage to convince intelligent people in international organizations to believing Thai “myths”. You know what? There are people who look at the facts before believing things. But clearly, these are not the kind of people these spin doctors wish to associate themselves with in here.
I can understand people disagreeing with the idea of the monarchy as an institution but I find it rather disappointing that there are some people who seem to immediately dislike the King simply because of his status as a monarch. I am sure there are atheists who strongly disagree with the idea of religion, but that doesn’t mean it is right that they should go around and ,for example, try to convince others that the praises Mother Teresa receives is all due to myth-making and her legion of Christian priests, sisters and believers who travel everywhere spreading the “myths”.
Why are people afraid to say I disagree with the monarchy institution, but I do admit the King has done many things out of his compassion and love which benefits innumerable poor and needy people in Thailand.
Are these the same people who are afraid to admit that most of the democratically elected leaders in Thailand have, in sharp and utter contrast, brought about so much harm and grief to the Thais through their corruption, abuse of power and unlimited greed and selfishness.
37 Mariner // Jun 1, 2008 at 1:53 am
It’s not so much that anyone dislikes the king because he is the king. What people dislike, I suspect, is the concealment of the truth, the endless sycophantic idolizing and the suppression of anything critical of the man.
To the Jops of this world I have a question: can you give any examples at all of criticism of the king which you consider fair and valid? No one’s perfect, are they?
38 Teth // Jun 1, 2008 at 3:55 am
I hope you realize that you’re rolling around in irony when mentioning spin-doctors.
Again, this is not about what the King “deserves” (whatever that is in your mind). Its about the propaganda. Getting the King these awards is hardly a sign of a competent Foreign Service. Getting him the Nobel Peace Prize would truly be talented, regardless of whatever an outgoing UN Secretary General says. If the King’s achievements go beyond any other human being’s, why don’t we just make him the Supreme Ruler of the Universe? For everything else, there’s a few worthwhile Prizes lying around already, no need for any new ones.
The propaganda surrounding the King is hardly a “Thai myth.” As many Thais see through it as foreigners are deceived by it. When a foreign diplomat works with Thai officials, its easy to only see one side of the story and very easy to oblige their pride by awarding an unknown award or even making one up.
Your argument here relies almost entirely on perceptions. You compare and compare, but the truth is, these awards mean not a lot. I am not a spin doctor nor do I want to see the monarchy abolished. If you insist that I am merely spouting “spin”, why don’t you answer those questions I posed in my post above? Or how about you buying me a Philae Medal from UNESCO?
Just open your eyes and accept the fact that these “awards” are as meaningless as the honorary degrees the royals hold. You can continue to think of them as benevolent supermen, that is your choice, but please don’t try to delude us (and yourself) by overplaying the significance of these awards. You should see the number of medals the Burmese generals wear.
As a Thai, I view monarchy pragmatically. They will rise and fall, they will come and go. If Thai history is any precedent to go by, even regicide can be justified (King Taksin, anyone?). If it has outlived its usefulness, it must go.
39 Jop // Jun 1, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Well, it is not difficult to see the kind of prejudices and biases that some people have in here.
So, you spin doctors can cling on to your prejudices and live in your fantasy world. A world where there is an unholy alliance between hardcore Thai royalist diplomats and the others whom you would probably call the “closet royalists”. These, in your world, would include the UNDP, FAO, UNESCO, UNDCP, FAO, World Bank,WMO, WHO, etc. Yeah so all these organizations and Thai diplomats have come together, to what you probably consider as an axis of evil, who have over the years made several secret deals behind closed doors to spread Thai royalist “myths” to the world. The UN has surely prostituted itself to the royalists, since Kofi Annan made clear of his intention when he presented the first ever UNDP Lifetime Achievenment Award to the King that it was, to quote him, “help draw attention to Your Majesty’s visionary thinking beyond the borders of the Kingdom of Thailand”. Oh, but now that Ban Ki-moon is the new secretary-general, maybe, just maybe, he will see the light and righteously lead all the UN organizations out of this axis of evil.
I suspect that If we were to put some of the spin doctors here on a couch, it may be revealed that their true anger stems from, what I would call, the fake royalists. Those yellow-tie and pin-bearing hypocrites who appear on Thai television to appease the masses by pretending to be royalists. To me, that does not only include people like Jakrapob and others in the current government who often come on television wearing the yellow tie and the royal pin, but any conservative elites in the military who, while claiming to be royalists, similarly do things for their self interests to the detriment of national interests and the Thai people. While these people brandish their yellow ties and royal pin and prance around in their yellow polo shirts on the weekends, these people never follow what the King teaches. These people may bow when they meet the King, they may be quick to accuse others for lese majeste, but the King is not truly in their hearts.
So the spin doctors can take that path. The one in which the actions of some fake, elite royalists – who are in fact the minority of royalists – has clouded their objectivity and led them to their dislike of all and any royalists and even the King himself. It doesn’t matter anymore that the King has spent his entire lifetime dedicated to the people of Thailand, travelling and working in the rural areas to better understand the poor and disadvantaged. In fact in the past 40 years he has only stepped outside of Thailand once to neighbouring Laos (yeah, the spin doctors are now rushing to google.com to dig up something on this fact to spin on), so that he could spend more time with his people in Thailand and improve their lives.
I and I dare say the majority of Thais, on the other hand, have chosen a different path. We have chosen to love our King. We have chosen to respect him and put him firmly in our hearts. We have witnessed his dedication to his people and his country and we have been inspired by him. While this online discussion is going on, most of the true royalists are out in the open, working the land, yes even on the weekend. They are working the land with their King in their hearts and they have since their early years been inspired by him to make their living honestly and to try to live a modest life so that at the end of the day they will have more to share with their community. These are the people that many foreigners who travel to Thailand have come to love for their simplicity, honesty, kindness, compassion, gentleness, politeness, etc. and not some of those Thais who prance around in the city in their yellow shirts (or more recently black) while busily trying to work their own way to the top of the corporate ladder as their foremost priority, having forgotten about Thai values, having forgotten about giving back to the community, about the fact that there are still many poor and needy people in the rural areas. But the King never forgets about them. Just as they have him in their hearts, he has them in his heart.
These Thai people whom many have had the chance to encounter and come to love are the exact same people, if they were to see some of the comments made about the King by the spin doctors in here, would be quick to jump into the King’s defence out of their love for him. But in the circumstances, it happens to be that the overwhelming majority of the Thais have mostly been silenced by their lack of access to the internet, some by their lack of English skills, a few by their own wisdom to refrain engaging in fruitless arguments with those who lack objectivity, all the while as some of their other fellow countrymen have joined hands with some other Western internet surfers in a campaign of online false accusations against the person who they hold most dear in their hearts. These millions of Thais would be deeply and truly saddened, as I am, to see that this was going on. So I wish that they could go on without having to bear witness to this and to lead their lives in peace with their King in their hearts and continue to be inspired – by their King’s generosity, integrity, compassion and dedication – to do good for their families and communities and to be good citizens of the country.
40 nganadeeleg // Jun 1, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Jop: I find your post #39 quite interesting, and agree with some of your points.
Can you please advise where, amongst your spin doctors, fake, conservative & elite royalists, would you place the Privy Councilors?
I would also be interested to know who it is that appoints the Privy Councilors, and what are the qualities they have exhibited that makes them suitable appointees for the position?
41 Mariner // Jun 1, 2008 at 6:59 pm
So, Jop, do you think any of the contributors to this column should be charged with lese majeste and imprisoned? Just curious.
42 Teth // Jun 1, 2008 at 11:01 pm
So, Jop, you now go into a little tirade about biases. Again, wallowing in irony.
I am no spin doctor and no conspiracy theorist either. But look beyond your yellow-tinted glasses and your “King can do no wrong” attitude (which the King himself lambasted) and try to see the light.
The UN stands for international diplomacy. Not human rights, not human development, not peace, not justice. Look at all the condemnations against Israel that are instigated by her enemies in the UN. Other countries who don’t hate Israel play along to condemn Israel purely for diplomatic reasons. Is that a conspiracy?
Is it any surprise the US invaded Iraq without UN approval? The UN is all about diplomacy, and creating a few awards, saying a few diplomatic words, et cetera. When Syria can be a member of the Human Rights Commission, it doesn’t mean much. The truth is that there is no conspiracy, you simply do not understand how the UN works. If you want to know why it is such a fragile gathering, google what happened to the League of Nations. Hence its emphasis on diplomacy and meaningless consensus.
Jop, you haven’t bought me a Philae Medal yet. You haven’t even mentioned it! Or are you going to categorize this as a “false accusation” and “spin” and simply avoid mentioning it?
Lastly, I suspect that the Thais without internet access would only be able to see and hear one side of the story. Shame.
43 Teth // Jun 1, 2008 at 11:04 pm
BTW, a little Jop to English dictionary.
Apparently, objectivity n.: agreeing with, or in consensus with Thai royalist propaganda
44 Jop // Jun 2, 2008 at 2:26 pm
To Teth,
Well, this is typical of the tactics of the spin doctors. First, we assassinate the character of the King. And next up the UN and all its agencies and then out of desperation, look down on all the rural people in Thailand which you have now singled out from the rest of the population as “Thais without internet access”.
So your true colors are showing. So is the level of your intelligence and your perspective on things, eg. “The UN stands for international diplomacy. Not human rights, not human development, not peace, not justice”. Well most people do know that the UN’s work has contributed significantly to the great advancements made in human rights, development, peace and justice during modern history. Well, but I guess since the UN and its agencies made some positive comments about the King and endorsed his achievements, now all of those organizations’ work and the things that they did for humanity, all those UN people tirelessly working away for the greater good in refugee camps, etc, well all that just doesn’t matter anymore. They must be smeared and looked down upon at all costs. The same way how whatever the King has done for the poor and needy – who in your view are those “Thais without internet access who can only see on side of things”- in Thailand doesn’t matter to you either.
And you seem to be so obsessed with that Philae medal issue which I find odd since anyways it is just one of the 30 something international awards (my previous post didn’t list out all the awards) the King has received. Talking about awards, let me take this chance to tell you that the King has also received the Berkeley Medal from the University of California, Berkeley. http://awards.berkeley.edu/berkeleyMedal.cfm
Yeah, so in that fantasy world of yours, renown US academic institutions are too willing to risk their reputation by being a part of the axis of evil involved in secret deals to spreading Thai “myths”. Watch out all the spin doctors out there who are Westerners, cause that person sitting next to you on the bus, though white and seemingly intelligent, could be a closet royalist too.
Well, back to the Philae Medal issue, let me answer it this way for you. You can go out and buy as many philae medals as you like and store them up in your living room, but I am willing to put all my money on the table, that in your entire lifetime you will never be presented with one by UNESCO. There’s a difference with buying one and being presented with one. That’s pretty obvious I would have thought.
By the way, so you say the institution of the monarchy has outlived its usefulness and “must go”. And how do you plan to do that? Thailand is a democracy you know. Oh but I guess in your kind of democracy, the views of the “Thais without internet access” (as you referred to them) just don’t matter anymore. Otherwise, if they do matter, perhaps you and your group are waiting for that right moment when you can start some sort of crusade to cleanse the heretical Thais, in particular those rural people without internet access, from their primitive, traditional, superstitious beliefs about their King whom they ignorantly worship as their God. But guess what, your crusade will fail. You will find that the bonds of mutual love and affection between the Thai people and their King are truly hard to break.
45 Jop // Jun 2, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Mariner,
Well, I have spent too much time here already and am glad to at least had the chance to see that there are people like nganadeeleg here who dare to say that they actually agree to some things coming out of the mouth of a royalist.
In any case, my intention here was not to engage in debates about the King. I stumbled upon this blog by accident and read the posts on this topic on the King’s Exhibition, and it was apparent that most of the comments made on this topic were really one-sided, with thugs who would quickly jump in to scare away anyone who might want to express the other side. Anyways, I’ve now presented the other side of things and people can judge things for themselves.
But as to your question about lese majeste, the King made clear on his birthday speech that he disagreed with it, but these comments were unfortunately ignored. Guess the politicians/legislators want to keep it as a useful tool for their political games.
My views on this topic resembles that of former PM Anand. Please see his comments on the topic in his answer to Macan-Marker, the first question.
http://www.panyathai.or.th/wiki/index.php/Shane_Come_back
So do I think some people here should be charged with lese majeste?
To be honest, no. But I would like to see them sued for defamation. But unfortunately the King would never, ever do that and third parties, I think, cannot sue on someone else’s behalf.
46 Mariner // Jun 3, 2008 at 1:41 am
Without meaning any disrespect to his majesty I cant help feeling that his attitude towards the lese majeste laws must be somewhat ambivalent. On the one hand, HM clearly appreciates that the laws protect him from criticism and thereby assist those who would cultivate an adoration of himself amongst the Thai populace. On the other hand, the king is aware that the western audience from who he also seeks approval (presumably) regards such laws as an appalling infringement on self expression.
I wonder if critics might argue that his majesty is playing both fields at the same time: condemning the lese majeste laws publicly (catering to ‘the west’) but privately determined that these laws remain in force to sustain the royal image.
I think that you would agree on one point: if the laws were not in place the king would not be held in such high regard. Many suspect there are skeletons in the cupboard (you’ve heard the rumours).
(ps. To the Thai authorities which regularly monitor the contents of this site, please accept that I will really make an effort to more restrained in my comments in the future. )
47 Teth // Jun 3, 2008 at 2:54 am
Jop,
Look at what I have said again.
If it has outlived its usefulness, it must go.
Never did I say it must go. This is a good example of you not listening to what I actually have to say.
Next, when I said:
Lastly, I suspect that the Thais without internet access would only be able to see and hear one side of the story. Shame.
I said it in a tongue-in-cheek manner. I referenced the fact that you think Thais without Internet access are unable to express their overwhelming support for the King and I agree. They will not be able to express their support, but in the meantime neither will they be privy to other information that can be found on the Internet. I was only saying what you were saying.
I do understand the difference between being presented a prize and buying a prize. But I thought the whole point was that the King was presented with prestigious, internationally recognized prizes that can’t be bought on the market, like a Nobel prize?
This ties into the whole point about the UN and its diplomacy policy of giving out empty prizes. You say:
And undeniably the UN has done good things for the world. But what about its puzzling condemnation of Israel? What has the UN been able to do in Gaza? Aren’t UN peacekeepers abusing children? Why has the UN allowed genocide to continue in Sudan? Simple. The UN is an organization that needs to maintain diplomacy and national sovereignty and a good way to get to people’s hearts is by giving gifts. This doesn’t mean I am suggesting the UN or U Berkeley are part of a conspiracy. In fact, it is far from that straw man argument you have constructed.
Take your yellow-tinted glasses and try reading my comments again. I can assure you that I never insinuated there is a conspiracy, all I said was that many international organizations are fond of sweet talk and empty praises. That’s why its called diplomacy.
BTW, Jop, I never assassinated the King’s character. I only tried to critically examine these international prizes. After all, shouldn’t we be wary of flattery from the outside? Maybe they have a plan…. (Oh no!)
48 Reg Varney // Jun 3, 2008 at 10:34 am
Jop: Thanks for your tirade of royalist nonsense. None of what you say is unfamiliar to anyone who studies the monarchy and its role in Thailand. Teth showed you the deal on the awards. Senior Thai diplomats know that they are sent out to seek awards for the king and other royals – even the crown prince has received honorary degrees. Believe away, support PAD and the army.
49 Sidh S. // Jun 3, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Ah KhunJop, you’ve happened to enter the wrong site! This is, on the whole, an anti-monarchy website and displays of royalty will often be torn to shreds in NM (and a fellow Thai, Teth, has been especially effective in chasing all royalist Thais off the site!).
As a un-networked monarchist, I remain engaged as it is also a very high quality Thai and Southeast Asian Studies blog (the best I know of) – where you can get updates on the best research. And I also enjoy the generally high quality opinions expressed here (with big academic names in the area interviewed by Nicholas Farrelly – and even commenting on blogs occasionally).
If you are a fellow academic, I hope you stay engaged as you will certainly find it very useful, if not intellectually stimulating. As a fellow royalist (with “yellow-tinted” glass!), I hope you do! It can get lonely here!
50 nganadeeleg // Jun 3, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Thanks for posting your views on lese majeste, and the link to Anand’s opinion.
Anand is a slick operator:
Incidentally, it is not only the Thai people, but even the Thai government. Every time there is a book published which was critical of the king, the people who are very nervous about this thing would be the government. They would ban the book, they would ban the film, they would ban this, they would ban that; they would block this, they would block that. Do you know why? There is a reason for that. They were fearful that if they did not do anything, they would be castigated by the people. So, in fact, you can not blame the government. They merely responded to the perceived feelings of the people.
Like you and Anand, I don’t like the lese majeste law, but I also think Anand’s comments are a bit of a cop out, and he really is trying to have the cake and eat it too.
There are numerous matters where governments need to lead the people away from relying on their base instincts, and IMO overhaul of the lese majeste laws is a prime example.
btw, you have not yet answered my questions about the Privy Council (see comment #40 above)
51 nganadeeleg // Jun 3, 2008 at 7:10 pm
my above comment is addressed to Khun Jop
52 Arthur McBride // Jun 5, 2008 at 2:18 am
Having lived and worked in Thailand for about 18 years, I have noticed recently a greater willingness among ordinary Thais from many walks of life to take me in their confidence and share private criticisms of HMK and associated royal institutions. For example, development workers complaining about problems caused by the Royal Projects, a housewife criticizing the lavish expense of the Princess’s funeral preparations, businessmen remarking on unfair business practices of the CPB. I guess one can’t say whether this is a trend or not, but it is certainly a departure from the conventional script of unquestioning fealty, which so many followed with a sense of national duty, especially when speaking with foreigners.
Furthermore, there is never anything ideological or political about these comments. Neither Taksin nor PAD is lurking in the shadows. One gets the sense of people slowly adjusting themselves to a new social order–coming soon– in which some of the old taboos have expired or transformed, and the actual state of the nation must be appraised in the glare of daylight. There’s also a measure of anxiety in witnessing the death of the monarchy and at the same time realizing that Thailand has failed to evolve a viable political system.
Before anyone calls me an anti-royalist, I protest on the simple grounds that I am not intelligent enough to shape my thoughts and assertions to conform to such a formal concept.
53 Jop // Jun 5, 2008 at 3:12 am
Mariner,
to your following comment:
“critics might argue that his majesty is playing both fields at the same time: condemning the lese majeste laws publicly (catering to ‘the west’) but privately determined that these laws remain in force to sustain the royal image.
I think that you would agree on one point: if the laws were not in place the king would not be held in such high regard”
My personal view is that the King was being sincere when he spoke about the fact that he should also be subject to criticism. He made a point to say that he would pardon anyone who was convicted of lese majeste, and which he did when a Swiss man was later convicted for the offence. I truly believe that he will stick with what he has said and will continue to pardon any further convicted persons.
In any case, I don’t think the lese majeste law is something which sustains the royal image. It has been the King’s dedication and love to his people which has led to his immense popularity.
The lese majeste law protects the entire monarchy institution. But if look at all the royals, you will see that the King is vastly the most popular. So how come the others who are similarly protected aren’t anywhere near as popular?
Another thing I want to point out is this. And anyone who knows anything about Thailand will know that this is true. The Thais regard the King as their father. They feel it so strongly because they know that the King regard them as his children, it shows in his actions. Fathers often have to put on the stern face, but they also have a heart of gold. And the children know that.
Now think about this. Would a family allow someone into the house at dinner time, and let him start pointing a finger at the father saying, “Look everyone, I have my sources which I believe to be reliable, and there is reason to believe that your father is this, your father is that, he did this, he did that, and you have all had this way over rosy picture of him.. etc” Well to be honest, even in a Western context, what could you expect to happen, except be asked to leave fairly immediately?
The Thais regard him as their father and he has come to have this special place in everyone’s hearts through his actions. No other royal – who are also protected by lese majeste – has the same connection with their people. So quite frankly, even without lese majeste, I truly believe things wouldn’t be any different.
Especially in an Asian context, the family is held sacred. The King as the people’s father is held sacred and must be protected. We don’t need laws to protect him. The Thais will always protect him out of their love and respect for him, not just as the father of the land, but much more personally as their own father too.
54 Reg Varney // Jun 5, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Jop: Arthur’s post suggests that you are not correct in your simplistic assertions about the king and Thais feelings. I just did a quick survey of 3-4 Thais near me and they all disagreed with the idea of the king being the father. It is simply ideological nonsense and a relatively recent creation. Your observations are no more than one person’s beliefs so why foist them on the whole Thai population?
The budget that goes into creating and maintaining these royal myths (which you either believe or feel compelled to parrot) is enormous. Why? It is to protect an institution that **needs** to be protected.
The argument that the king doesn’t want lese majeste laws holds little sway. This is the usual beat-up that the king really doesn’t want these laws but that nasty others keep using it. Plenty of academic research has been done on this. The impact of the LM laws are to frighten and to silence. That suits the interests of the palace and the conservative elite.
That outsiders should not criticize the king – the implication of your comments on fathers – is rejected. If a father does wrong, he can be criticized, in any family. This also applies to “Asian” families – you have a large sample there and of great variety and diversity.
But, hey, you believe all this paternalistic nonsense, so what difference does it make for you to hear otherwise. Be happy in your royalist beliefs and feel great joy in all of the royal propaganda on TV, relish Thongdaeng’s achievements, and so on.
55 nganadeeleg // Jun 5, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Jop said: He made a point to say that he would pardon anyone who was convicted of lese majeste, and which he did when a Swiss man was later convicted for the offence. I truly believe that he will stick with what he has said and will continue to pardon any further convicted persons.
Is that from his 2005 speech, or somewhere else?
I have never seen his ‘I can be criticized’ speech interpreted as a guarantee that all will be pardoned, and if true then why do people keep making the charge when police & court time will inevitably be wasted?
56 Sidh S. // Jun 5, 2008 at 8:08 pm
“…I just did a quick survey of 3-4 Thais near me and they all disagreed with the idea of the king being the father.”
Out of curiousity Reg Varney, so what did the 3-4 Thais thought about HMK?
I do agree with Arthur McBride’s observation – although it probably predates his 18 years residency, albeit in private (as Thais are often quite critical people in private – especially with close friends and family). That it is being expressed more publicly does reflect Thai society’s evolution (higher income, higher education, more urban lifestyle, new communication technologies etc.) – and HMK will have observed that in saying that he can be criticized. The future trajectory is quite obvious (more likely Japanese-style constitutional monarchy than British). I am an optimist here and I think society is on a very slow crawl towards a more effective rule of law and checks and balances of power (where the military can no longer rationalize coups based on corrupt politicians – as they’ll be effective independent judicial/civic mechanisms to address that)… It might be faster depending on how conflicts between PMThaksin/PPP, PAD, and the new “White” movement are resolved…
57 Jop // Jun 5, 2008 at 9:26 pm
khun nganadeeleg,
Well, it was interpretated as such by the Nation newspaper (see below) which seems to be an accurate interpretation of what the King actually said (see below also).
I think people are still going to press charges because as a political attack, having been charged and convicted with lese majeste would still cause the person under attack to carry the social stigma of someone who has caused injury to the King. In non-politically motivated cases, there are many people out there who would get very emotionally angry at, for example, the Swiss man’s actions and they would feel that the right thing to do is to press charges and would thus go ahead with it.
interpretation by Nation newspaper:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/specials/60thking/dec5.php
Translation of relevant part from the King’s speech:
“[Under] previous kings, even rebels were not sent to jail, were not punished. King Rama the VI did not punish rebels. During [the time of] King Rama IX, who were the rebels? Actually, there had never been. I also followed the same way: Do not send them to jail, but release [them]. If they are in jail, release them. If they are not in jail, I will not sue because I am in trouble. A person who is insulted is in troubled. People who violate the King, and are punished are not in trouble but the King is in trouble. This is strange. Lawyers like to launch suits and send them to jail.”
58 Reg Varney // Jun 5, 2008 at 10:14 pm
According to the king (via Jop): “[Under] previous kings, even rebels were not sent to jail, were not punished. King Rama the VI did not punish rebels. During [the time of] King Rama IX, who were the rebels?” He doesn’t know his Thai history very well, does he.
59 Reg Varney // Jun 5, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Sidh S: You should get out and about more. There are plenty of Thais outside the middle class and elite (the implication of your comment on technology etc.) who are highly critical of the palace. I believe that is why there is so much sensitivity at present.
On your question, the point is that Jop claims to speak for all Thais. I object to this assertion. My friends see this notion of “father” as an inelegant feudal ideology being foisted on 21st century Thais (of course that is my interpretation of rather more blunt statements).
60 nganadeeleg // Jun 5, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Thank you Khun Jop.
In light of the King’s words, I would now like to know why all the legal scaremongering about lese majeste?
It seems a jail sentence is the least of the worries, which should also mean that legal fees can also be minimized – is the secrecy/lack of transparency the main cause of concern?
Of course, aside from jail, the other big risk would be some sort of discrimination against you making a living, or possibly violence from a fanatic or a mob (which is probably on a par with the general risk in Thailand from speaking your mind or treading on someone’s toes), however I don’t think the King is the one who should be blamed for that.
In light of the embarrassment that LM causes the King, I am surprised that more creative lawyers have not made a counter LM claim, especially in the more frivolous cases – everyone gets tainted – if that happened more maybe the stupid law will get removed!
61 Sidh S. // Jun 6, 2008 at 8:20 pm
I agree Reg Varney, I implied modern urban life – regardless of wealth. The sensitivity, however, is due to politics than anything else and every side of politics has over-played the LM card (except PMSurayud’s government who didn’t slap PMThaksin with one – even with GenSonthi’s accusations).
I agree with Khun Jop’s notion with HMK as the “father” of the people – so that makes it 2 to 3 for your survey and your friends win by a vote. If you conduct your survey in NM, then there’s a large possibility that they’ll be only our two votes! I think it will likely be closer if you surveyed randomly on the streets of Bangkok.
Or it may just be Asian Confucian paternalism (and phrases like “the UN is not my father” doesn’t quite have its effects in a Western context)? At the end of day, I think it is just different realities and that is only natural…
62 Reg Varney // Jun 8, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Sidh S. I think that you raise an interesting point when you use the term “Asian Confucian paternalism”. Like the Asian Values debate, where LKY assumed that all of Asia was Chinese-Confucianist, you seem to make similar assumptions. This is interesting because maybe we have to look at how Chinese and perhaps Confucianist the “Thai” elite really is. My guess is that a lot of the current political debate is not about rural-urban but about rootless Sino-Thais and their identity politics vs. ethnic Thais and their lack of identity issues. I realize that this rather unthoughtout comment raises an issue of race, but increasingly I feel that there is a need to reconsider this in the Thai context. I’d be interested in your thoughts and those of other NM contributors, even if this is off-topic for this thread.
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