Regular readers will recall that back in mid-March, Andrew and I made a post titled “A Thai Studies Boycott?“. It asked some questions of the 2008 Thai Studies conference to be held at Thammasat University in Bangkok. That post was prompted by a New Mandala reader who proposed a boycott of the conference.
Shortly afterwards we followed that initial post with an update on the discussion that exploded here and elsewhere. In response to these discussions Chang Noi penned a balanced article on the proposed boycott. The Nation’s elephant argued that the mere “call for a boycott signals something important…[about] what can be said inside and outside the country”.
The issue has now been highlighted again by an open letter Thongchai Winichakul has written to “friends who are interested in the Thai Studies conference 2008″. It is available in full from the Thai-Laos-Cambodia listserve archive.
He writes (my emphasis added):
I assume that you have heard the call for a boycott of the conference. I am not convinced by the boycott call, but I realize that there is no absolute reason either way. The purpose of this message is not to argue about it. It is for those who will attend, to ask you to help make the event as worthwhile as we can in this circumstance.
The April 15 deadline for submission is approaching. I am sure that it will be extended, as usual. But we should take the matter seriously. A good presence of these panels that are critical to the current situation would send a strong message to the Thai public and would reflect the concerns of our academic community. These critical panels/papers, I believe, are the better way to respond to the coup/ post-coup Thailand.
Peter Bell and Jim Glassman are organizing a panel on the Sufficiency Economy. We need more papers/ panels that are critical to the coup, the military, Prem, the undemocracy, the new and old constitutions, the judiciary, the Crown Property Bureau, the super-conservative cultural trend and the “Cultural Surveillance” Department, the call for Buddhism as the National Religion, widespread censorship of internet accesses, the crisis among Thai intelligentsia, Thai-style democracy, the “Yellow Fever”, and the past, present and future of the monarchy, and more. The panels/papers may not be exactly about the current situation but address the various aspects related to or help us understand those current issues.
Thongchai’s full letter is definitely worth a read. New Mandala readers who remain unconvinced by the call for a boycott may want to join Thongchai and support his effort to attract more critical papers and panels to the conference.
Thongchai also writes:
I had an opportunity last week to talk to the organizer of the ICTS10. They confirmed that the conference is an academic event and those proposals would be accepted. Ji Ungpakorn’s proposal against the coup was already accepted. There is no plan for a special celebration of anything beyond a typical Thai event of this scale – such as the opening by the Princess. How reliable those words are — it is up to us to test.
Unlike Thongchai, New Mandala has yet to receive a reply to our enquiry regarding the “academic” nature of the 2008 Thai Studies conference. This was, for obvious reasons, one of the key concerns raised by the proposer of the boycott.
Thongchai has now suggested a list of topics for a concerted “anti-boycott”. He advises putting critical energy into using the Thai Studies conference to debate the kinds of issues that are so often discussed here on New Mandala.
So, what do New Mandala readers think of Thongchai’s list of possible panels and topics? Are there any other potentially controversial Thai Studies issues that are just crying out for some serious academic scrutiny? Is anybody here going to get involved in this effort?
As always, your thoughts and comments on this important issue are very welcome.
56 responses so far ↓
1 patiwat // Apr 14, 2007 at 6:53 am
Does the fact that many Thai academics are under the junta’s payroll have anything to do with this?
2 John Francis Lee // Apr 14, 2007 at 9:31 am
Singapore has the solution to those formerly beyond their control speaking up at a conference within their borders : “foreigners should not abuse their privilege by interfering in our domestic politics”
Europe MPs ‘gagged’ by Singapore
I wonder if the Thai government will emulate the one in Singapore? I know that there’s supposed to be a civilian government in Thailand by the time the conference is held… but that will be after 15 rather than the originally forecast 12 months of military rule, if it actually does take place. And with an appointed senate, for starters.
I think Thongchai’s got the right idea in going forth to meet the situation rather than recoiling in disdain.
3 thorn // Apr 14, 2007 at 9:47 am
P’Patiwat
“Academics included Wuttipong Piebjriya-wat, Sophon Supapong, Narong Phet-prasert, Somkiat Osotspa”
You must be kidding me to agree with the article that they (at least the first two) are academics.
4 somsak jeamteerasakul // Apr 14, 2007 at 10:42 am
But why should the sorts of papers TW suggests be presented at THIS Conference? Suppose only a handful of such papers canbe presented because, after all, not many people have been working on such topics, wouldn’t a boycott (including by those who may not be specialists in “various aspects related to or help us understand those current issues”) be more effective in “send[ing] a strong message to the Thai public and would reflect the concerns of our academic community”?
P.S. Even if there is no more special celebration than the opening by the Princess – a “typical” function of such event, you might say – wouldn’t that opening itself be happening in not so typical circumstances? In other word, should one not view a ceremony only at its outward – more or less the same-as-usual (i.e. “typical”) form, but in its historical context? And how about the organizer’s already declared aim of BEING PART OF HMK’s 80th Birthday Celebration? Surely, that’s not “typical”? I certainly don’t recall any previous ICTS coinciding with the King’s 80th Birthday Celebration or a Coup d’tat widely believed to be engineered by the Palace circles?
5 Guantanamo // Apr 14, 2007 at 1:17 pm
If Thongchai’s very courageous agenda of critical issues is going to be put forward at the conference, then a boycott would actually stifle free debate about the current state of Thailand. This letter is a much-needed voice of leadership among the current hysterics.
6 Srithanonchai // Apr 14, 2007 at 2:20 pm
Thongchai’s seem to be a voice of reason.
7 patiwat // Apr 14, 2007 at 6:08 pm
thorn, Thai standards for “academics” aren’t very high…
8 Pig Latin // Apr 14, 2007 at 7:11 pm
If the interim government’s position was really interim, why is there such concern over the topics that may be discussed? If anything, an interim government should be promoting dialog.
An instance in history where dialog was promoted can be seen with de Gaulle and the introduction of the impossible Fourth Republic (not in that there was a coup, but there was a nation in disarray). Possibly for a similar outcome the guillotine may have to be wheeled out in Thailand – that way there would not just be Buddhist, nationalised enlightenment – but civil enlightenment too…!
(ps apologies if this site now becomes irrationally censored in Thailand for my reference to the fina.. i mean A solution….
)
9 amberwaves // Apr 14, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Thongchai, who was certainly Thailand’s prophet without honor last year for accurately warning where things were headed due to the unthinking and self-righteous anti-Thaksin movement, is surely right again.
It seems to me that in this case, a boycott amounts to an evasion — by all sides. All it says it that a few people are pissed off at Thailand. That doesn’t even force any kind of response. To engage on the critical issues much better exposes where things stand, for better or worse.
I am also uneasy with promoting the concept of boycotts, when in the field of Southeast Asian studies we have seen examples of governments “boycotting” scholars, i.e., denying them visas (I’m thinking of Suharto’s Indonesia, specifically, and Burma as well.) Wouldn’t it be better to hold the moral high ground on this sort of thing?
10 Sawarin // Apr 14, 2007 at 8:13 pm
Nobody can really speak on the behalf of the others. I neither wish to speak for anybody nor do I intend to be sarcastic, but I would appreciate it if the organiser of the 10th ICTS, Thongchai, New Mandala, or anyone who ‘have the concern’ in Thailand’s current state of democracy can clarify me with this issue:
The following is copied word-to-word from the webpage of the 10th ICTS:
‘Thammsat University, the second oldest university in Thailand known for its academic excellence in humanities and social sciences, and the Thai Khadi Research Institute, the first institution in Thailand to devote itself to Thai studies, invite scholars from all disciplines and intellectual perpspectives to participate in the 10th International Conference on Thai societies in a Transnationalized World. The conference is a continuation of a well-established academic tradition which aims to promote research and in-depth study of Thai culture and society as well as to provide a forum for academics to present their viewpoints and research findings. Besides the academic focus, the conference will be an event to celebrate the auspicious occassion of the 80th birth anniversary of His Majesty King Bhumibol Adulyadej in recognition of His Majesty’s great benevolence and life-long work for the well-being of the Thai people’.
The line four lines is my reason for not submitting a proposal to this conference. This webpage has been on the internet for many months. There’s no sign which suggests the Thai Khadi Research Centre will do anything to amend it. After New Mandala has written to the organiser, and after the boycott proposal has been going round for some time, there is yet an official line to inform and ensure me that my participation in this conference will not, literally and figuratively, become part of the regime that prevents the cause of democracy in Thailand. Particularly, I’d like to know for sure how the organiser(s) will coordinate with the media. Every international conference, no matter big or small, is generally reported in newspapers. The papers in Thailand will be very keen to report on this one (I don’t need to say more on the media issue).
I doubt that Thongchai will receive many ‘critical papers’ on the important issues he raised. The chance of receiving critical papers for this conference is likely to stem from the people who are thinking of boycotting it. Many thanks for your attention everyone.
11 Tosakan // Apr 14, 2007 at 10:12 pm
I think somebody should submit a paper called “An argument for a Thai republic” and expose the academic freedom charade in Thailand for all its worth.
Or why not invite Paul Handley to speak on a panel about Why the King Never Smiles? That way he can be held accountable, not only for his courage, but for the errors in the book also.
Let us be honest: There won’t be any Thai academics writing anything remotely controversial, especially in regards to the monarchy.
And I seriously doubt that foreign academics are going to upset the hosts.
All this talk about academic freedom and promoting discussion of controversial issues really is a lot of bullshit.
It will be an kissass festival with a lot of self-congratulatory academics patting each other on the backs for their mediocre work, plus many heart felt homages to the king thrown in for good measure.
When all is said and done, I hope Thai undergraduate and graduate students give all these academics the finger, because in my humble opinion, it is the Thai academy that has failed to sustain democracy in Thailand more than any other institution.
75 years later?
What exactly is the legacy of the Thai academy in preparing Thais for a democratic global age?
Now that is a paper I would read.
12 Jon Fernquest // Apr 14, 2007 at 11:43 pm
How are a couple of papers at conference really going to change anything?
Conference attending? A slight variation on the “research trip” funded with pot of cash received to do research which, in the end, no one does. How many of those meaningless reports have I picked up off the shelves, only to put them back immediately.
The Thais who “really” do research who I know, live and breathe their subject matter, but e.g. thei linguistic research was dismissed by the administration for not generating money for research trips. A big joke.
The university I worked at got a grant from the Keenan Institute for an international collaborative project to get people started doing research. What did most Thai Ajaans do? Research? No, they assumed this haute air of **supervising the research** of the visitors from other SEAsian countries who received grants to do research. I presented a paper, even though I had already left after being thoroughly ripped off, cheated, and lied to, like countless other foreigners in the education sector.
The real problem is that there are bad people doing bad things everyday and only making a show of honourable behaviour to their King. (immigration police who slept with the Karen children/workers at a guesthouse near Mae Sot I was staying at before going upriver to Manerplaw was perhaps the first nauseating instance, I can remember) IMHO the institution of kingship is not the problem, the problem is selfish people using the institution of kingship for their own selfish goals, and also just plain laziness. Observations from a grunt working on the front lines, IMHO where more people need to be if they want to change things.
13 I wonder // Apr 15, 2007 at 5:50 am
If somsak brave/dare enough, why don’t he present his critical paper esp his critical point to the monarchy in this conference …
14 nganadeeleg // Apr 15, 2007 at 9:42 am
We need more papers/ panels that are critical to the coup, the military, Prem, the undemocracy, the new and old constitutions, the judiciary, the Crown Property Bureau, the super-conservative cultural trend and the “Cultural Surveillance” Department, the call for Buddhism as the National Religion, widespread censorship of internet accesses, the crisis among Thai intelligentsia, Thai-style democracy, the “Yellow Fever”, and the past, present and future of the monarchy, and more.
Here’s a topic for you academics to consider:
- Does the King pay lip service to the Thai people, or the Thai people pay lip sevice to the King?
15 nganadeeleg // Apr 15, 2007 at 10:26 am
Here’s a few more possible topics:
- Honest incompetents, or corrupt Demagogue – what’s better for Thailand?
- Is the King being made a scapegoat for the failure of democracy in Thailand?
- What do the King, Thaksin & the Jatukam Ramathep amulet all have in common?
- Why is a super-rich capitalist seen as the saviour of the rural poor?
and most important:
- How to stop the southern insurgency turning into another Sri Lanka or Palestine?
16 saraburian // Apr 15, 2007 at 1:22 pm
Re: #13 I wonder
I think Somsak conceded openly before that he’s not brave enough and he’s scared of the jail term. Who wouldn’t?
17 Jon Fernquest // Apr 15, 2007 at 4:12 pm
One useful and straightforward paper would be to collect old newspaper clippings of articles that refer to lese majeste but which, apparently as an act of self-censorship, never provide the details of what the offending party actually did, i,.e what everyone wants to know. This is what Streckfuss seems to do sometimes. I haven’t read his dissertation yet. Just a surgical enumeration of facts without emotion. As a controlled experiment you could have a Farang give the paper in one room and a Thai in another and a Burmese in another, the same paper that is, and see if the respective audiences heard completely different papers, despite the papers being identical.
18 amberwaves // Apr 16, 2007 at 8:37 pm
There certainly seems to be a lot of hostility toward the Thai Studies conference in general. Or at least, the hostility towards academics seems pretty undifferentiated. What’s that all about? I can’t speak to the quality of the presentations, but the agenda of the last conference seems like it was compelling. See:
http://www.niu.edu/thaiconf/Program%20Booklet%20FINAL%203-25-05.htm
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but wasn’t the genesis of Kevin Hewison’s work on the Thai monarchy in a paper about Monarchy and Democracy” presented at one of these conferences? (Or was it at an AAS meeting?) Was that not useful?
19 Thongchai // Apr 24, 2007 at 7:26 am
There was one ICTS hosted by Chula after the 1976 massacre (not sure 1977 or 78). There was a call for boycott at that time too. Did it have any impact? Even people who support the boycott here cannot recall it.
There was another ICTS in Kunming in 1990, after the Tian-an-men Square massacre. There was a call for boycott as well, in fact even stronger and broader than to ICTS but to so many other relations with China. Did the boycott to ICTS work? Did it have any impact?
Why not? Did both events deserve a boycott stronger than the current one? A comparison may not be the right question. Just for further thinking.
I am not anti-boycott because a boycott in itself is not right or wrong. The reasons behind it are normally not conclusively right or wrong either. It is a measure to oppose what we do not like. I am simply not convinced (at least not yet) that I should do it in this case at this time. But I am not going to fight against those who want the boycott either. They have reasons. I just think there are possible battles to be fought, and probably harder ones, i.e. for open discussions on the issues that may seem improbable.
Yet, I can do as one individual can. Others have their own respectable decisions. Sucess, fantasy, failure, how many critical papers, panels, people would be accepted, I do not know. But pushing the limits in this case is worth an effort.
20 Srithanonchai // Apr 24, 2007 at 3:01 pm
It would help if the organizers were more transparent in their operations. Until now, visitors to their web site have no way of knowing who actually is on the committee that will decide about panels and papers. Emails often are not answered. There still is no list of suggested panels. They could sure learn something from how the organization of the EUROSEAS conference in September in Naples is handled.
21 WhiteElephant // Apr 24, 2007 at 8:07 pm
I agree with Thongchai and I want to add that a BOYCOTT MEANS NOTHING.
Are you muzzling yourselves by boycotting this event?
Are you academics or cowards?
Go to the conference, submit your papers…and when you are at the podium eloquently state what you need to say.
Odd how so many academics who aren’t even citizens of Thailand are terrified to voice their concerns.
If this message is not posted then clearly you have proven my point.
22 Historicus // Apr 26, 2007 at 1:56 am
For amberwaves: Hewison’s paper on the monarchy and democratisation was not presented at an ICTS or an AAS, but at a small workshop in Perth in 1993.
Has there been any outcome yet on Thongchai’s (and other) critical panels suggested to the conference organisers?
23 Historicus // Apr 27, 2007 at 1:15 am
Just a little follow up on my question above regarding the acceptance or otherwise of Thongchai’s panels – still keen to know. But I note the response of the junta to the Time Asia comment on the king and their immediate rebuttal stating again that the king wasn’t involved in the coup in any way. What does this mean for an open discussion of the king, palace and the coup?
24 Srithanonchai // Apr 27, 2007 at 2:24 am
Well, any honest academic would never want to discuss what the honest military had said did not exist, right?
25 New Mandala » New ICTS deadline // Apr 27, 2007 at 12:22 pm
[...] to 15 June 2007. So it will be quite a wait to see if how liberal the organisers are in accepting panel and paper proposals which stray into sensitive [...]
26 ANANTH // Apr 30, 2007 at 7:18 pm
I do not understand kind of ‘panic atmosphere’ among Thai studies scholars on this occasion.
IF their works are REALLY or TRULY academic . why do they have to worry too much?
27 New Mandala » Report on SOAS event in London: “Thailand after the Coup” // May 30, 2007 at 10:31 pm
[...] after the coup”. Unfortunately, very little of what was said touched on the big issues that must figure in any analysis of the post-coup situation [...]
28 EDISON BARUA // Aug 23, 2007 at 7:43 pm
I am a buddhist monk and Ilive in thailand. I want to attend there.Thank you.
29 Somsak Jeamteerasakul // Jan 7, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Some body has just posted the following email on FawDiewKan webboard.
Dear Participants
Thailand is currently in mourning for Her Royal Highness Princess Galayani Vadhana (the King’s elder sister) who passed away on Wednesday 2nd January 2008. The princess at one time was a Thammasat University permanent faculty member. At the moment, the government has officially called for 15 days of mourning and has asked the public to wear black during this period.
In this regard, we would like to ask for your understanding. We respectfully request that all participants wear black or dark clothing for the duration of our conference.
Thank you for your kind co-operation.
Thai Conference Organizer
The Thai Khadi Research Institute,
Thammasat University
e-mail: thaiconference.event@gmail.com
Note: In case that you are not attending the 10th International Conference on Thai Studies to be held on January 9-11, 2008 in Bangkok, we would like to apologize and please ignore this e-mail.
I’m not going to the Conference and didn’t received the email. But may I suggest the following to all non-Thai academics, as well as all Thai who are not in bureaucracy and state enterprises and are not bounded by their codes:
Write back to the Conference Organizer telling them that this email is an insult to your intelligence, that you’re not obliged to act as requested and, most importantly, the current massive propaganda campaign in the name of “morning for the Princess” is in violation of democratic principles that you will not comply.
30 Republican // Jan 7, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Hahaha. Well it’s a nice idea. But if the non-Thai conference participants have already signed up and paid to attend a conference organized to honour a king who has given his full support to the overthrow of a democratically-elected government and to the dictatorial regime it installed I think it is probably unlikely that these same participants are going to make a fuss of this latest violation of democratic principles. After all, it’s simply a matter of switching one’s attire from yellow or pink to black.
31 Dickie Simpkins // Jan 7, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Dear K. Somsak,
In this post you are going too far:
read this line again:
“We respectfully request that all participants wear black or dark clothing for the duration of our conference.”
It is not a command.
While there is what you call, a massive propoganda campaign, this particular example of a ‘request’ is NOT a good example.
Try pointing out the black themes in all the news casters and endless talk about her on public tv and radio, then you would have a good point.
good day.
32 Srithanonchai // Jan 7, 2008 at 9:30 pm
“It is not a command.” >> You might be right. But it is not a command merely in a technical sense.
33 Somsak Jeamteerasakul // Jan 8, 2008 at 12:04 am
Dear K. D.S.
I’m afraid you should read my suggest more carefully yourself.
First of all, nowhere did I said the Organizer “commands”.
But more importantly, why would you think this “request” is not part of the massive propaganda campaign goin on right now?
Why would the Organizer feel the need to issue such “request”? To foreigners, no less. They are not Thai civil servants. Whether or not they’d choose to wear black during this time is none of the Organizer’s business. The Princess herself had NO state or official position AT ALL. She’s just the King’ s sister. This last point is very importnat. It proves the whole campaign, now almost a week old, almost 24 hours daily, is in direct violation of the FUNDAMENTAL democratic principle, namely that this country is NOT an absolute monarchy. There is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION for such campaign – the “request” in question included – for an unofficial person. (Unless of course it’s an abosolute monarchy. Then the Royal Family can designate anybody they’d like the whole contry to morn to dead.) Thus there’s absolutely no justification for anyone not bounded by the Thai civil servant codes to comply to such campain-’reguest’.
34 Freedom is not free. // Jan 8, 2008 at 12:34 am
In Thailand, if my boss or the header of my department says ‘request’. That completely means ‘command’ in a polite way. If I do not follow his request, I will be blamed. That’s Thai culture.
have a good day.
35 Srithanonchai // Jan 8, 2008 at 2:23 am
Somsak: “Whether or not they’d choose to wear black during this time is none of the Organizer’s business. ” >> May I add that private business companies have also “encouraged” their employees to wear black, etc. Employers have just as little business regarding this issue as have organizers of an international conference. Also note the collective in the latter’s opening sentence, “Thailand is currently in mourning…” Who is this “Thailand”, and how come that the organizers can speak for it?
Is this yet another example for a prevalent elite-communitarian social outlook with the corresponding culture and politics of c0nformity?
36 polo // Jan 8, 2008 at 3:26 am
Hi, previous should read”
“Seriously, even Somsak should go, and all those of like-minded should wear pink armbands on their black sleeves with “Fah Diawkan” written on it.”
37 Republican // Jan 8, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Hold it, I seem to remember in the “Thongchai Affair” – the debate here on NM over Thongchai’s article in The Nation in which he presented royalist arguments – that Thongchai was very upset that he should be challenged to commit lese majeste (by directly criticizing the monarchy) because of the effect that it might have on his career or even his safety, including that of his family:
“…The fact is I am SCARED of the lese majeste law too. In fact for a foreigner like Republican [Thanks Thongchai, for trying to reveal my identity - Rep.], the worst that ever happens is to be deported. But for a Thai like me — a jail term, plus whatever to my parents and extended family inThailand…” [#117, http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/2006/07/28/the-king-never-smiles/#comment-271969
So I take it, then, that Thongchai is NOT going to commit lese majeste at the ICTS – and of course, I would sympathise with the reasons. So why then bother to organize a conference panel on the monarchy if you can’t talk about it freely?
I just can’t see how academic debate about the monarchy at the ICTS can be freer or superior to the debate here on NM, or to some of the debates on Thai webboards like Fa Dio Kan or Prachatai.
Isn’t the whole reason for a conference (apart from the networking, catching up with friends, filling up the CV, “thiao”, celebrating autocratic king’s birthdays, contributing to royalist academic propaganda campaigns, etc.) that it provides the opportunity for scholars in a particular field from all over the world to present and debate their research in the interests of furthering knowledge? If you can’t do that then why attend such a conference in the wake of a royalist coup? How can you avoid being used for the purposes of royalist propaganda?
38 Somchai // Jan 8, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Dear Mr.Somsak,
Having read through that “note” , I have no idea or feeling that it’s a command. I think it’s only to ask for kind cooperation from attendee who may or may not follow such guidance.
With regard to the announcement from Government, there is no such control/command over people in Thailand to wear black/white suite for mourning. It’s Thai people to follow with conciousness. In addition, in the “note” , they said Princess was one time faculty member of Thammasat. It’s no doubt to follow.
To top it off, most of us follow to dress up black suit because we respect King and Royal Family. If you watch TV, you’ll see many people crying and of course, they’re real crying with sadness.
In you/your family funeral, will you wish all of us dress up red instead?
I’ve read your various articles regarding Royal Family and wonder whether or not Royal Family did something wrong to you. Why do you always say a lot to blame King & Royal Family? You may say you didn’t but in fact your article still point out that way. I don’t feel that I have restriction to do / do not in this country.
Don’t be “democrazy syndrome” until you’re blind and blame everything.
39 Srithanonchai // Jan 9, 2008 at 2:08 am
“If you watch TV, you’ll see many people crying and of course, they’re real crying with sadness.” >> Well, obviously, TV would not show those who could not care less!
40 Teth // Jan 9, 2008 at 3:05 am
In you/your family funeral, will you wish all of us dress up red instead?
But she’s not my family.
I’ve read your various articles regarding Royal Family and wonder whether or not Royal Family did something wrong to you. Why do you always say a lot to blame King & Royal Family? You may say you didn’t but in fact your article still point out that way. I don’t feel that I have restriction to do / do not in this country.
Because they have done bad things for the country, things which are not allowed to be discussed in Thailand.
Don’t be “democrazy syndrome” until you’re blind and blame everything.
I wonder who’s actually the blind one?
Don’t be a “King-crazy syndrome” until you’re blind and blame things on the “stupid Isaan people”.
41 Dickie Simpkins // Jan 9, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Republican: you said
“So I take it, then, that Thongchai is NOT going to commit lese majeste at the ICTS – and of course, I would sympathise with the reasons. So why then bother to organize a conference panel on the monarchy if you can’t talk about it freely?”
Ok. Agreed.
But lets get away from nitpicking here. I would think that it is a ’step’ to openness, despite how little the baby step is, it is movement. And to me, more logical than your braveheart skirt wearing, face-painting revolution call in the streets; or hard-hitting alias-hiding discussions in internet web boards.
The fact that this discussion is picked up by the Bangkok Post, and covered for the general media is pretty significant.
And this is coming from someone with a pro-HMK bias.
Going back to Ajarn Somsak, I agree with you on your arguments, but not your conclusion. Based on your arguments, I agree that no ’state’ money should go into the funeral… but your arguments do not point into the case that one should ‘not’ wear black to respect a former Professor who is also sister of His Majesty.
just my 2 cents.
42 Somchai // Jan 9, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Dear Mr./Ms.Teth,
Mind your words especially the last phase.
I’ve never realized that the stupid word is from the educated people like you. I don’t know why you still separate Thai in each. It’s no reason to discrimiante people lie you did.
When you say “Because they have done bad things for the country, things which are not allowed to be discussed in Thailand”, it should be witnessed by firm evidence. It should not be just novel or just gossip. Please show evidence.
Surely, Princess was not one of your family and you can do everything you want. No one force you to dress up as annouced. When you feel bad, it’s just your feeling and no one can force you to feel the same. You can dress up with colorful everydays. No one blame you .I don’t understand why you choose “criticize “but not critique.
Just show evidence if you feel sure on your belief. Thailand goes bad now due to ourselves. Anyway, blame others is better than ours , right?
Should you wish to prove your theory, go to Grand Palace and shout out loud. See how many people are your side. Don’t be worry, I’ll bail you out and support your brave as you are expressing your idea and harmless anybody. However, don’t kill or hurt others who don’t think the same as I can’t bail out in this point.
Moreover, I want to point out “freedom” still belongs to everybody as long as it does not harm others. Just take it. No one steal from you.
Look ! we can discuss in this issue in many webboard with harmless. Why do you still think that it’s restricted!
43 Pracharat // Jan 9, 2008 at 4:54 pm
“In you/your family funeral, will you wish all of us dress up red instead?”
Yes, I wish my funeral will be a joyful one.
Not so long ago Thai’s funeral was a ‘fun’ event with plays and music until ‘modernization’ around 100 years ago.
44 Teth // Jan 10, 2008 at 1:52 am
I’ve never realized that the stupid word is from the educated people like you. I don’t know why you still separate Thai in each. It’s no reason to discrimiante people lie you did.
Surely you must understand sarcasm and me mocking you?
A question for you, should I prove my “theory” by “going to Grand Palace and shout out loud. See how many people are your side.” Or should I “show evidence”? Make up your mind, is this going to be decided by a deluded and brainwashed popular vote or by evidence?
Just show evidence if you feel sure on your belief. Thailand goes bad now due to ourselves. Anyway, blame others is better than ours , right?
The issue is not whether I criticize myself. I certainly do critically examine myself, but the real issue is whether my argument is valid.
I have presented evidence many times in this web blog if you so wish to go back and read. What I can guarantee is that it is in no way based on rumors or gossip. And, I also can guarantee that Paul Handley’s book the King Never Smiles is not based on gossip either (even though it mentions gossip, the actual evidence is solid and well researched). As long as you take off your tinted glasses, sir, then let’s have a proper discussion. Otherwise, you will simply be defending the indefensible.
Look ! we can discuss in this issue in many webboard with harmless. Why do you still think that it’s restricted!
Same sky books’ webboard was recently shut down and 2 people were imprisoned last year for lese majeste. Lese majeste is not a libel case as there needs to be no proof of “truth” or “valid criticism for the public interest.” Surely this must be apparent to you. You also do realize that many websites are banned in Thailand and the book the King Never Smiles is not sold in any bookstore in Thailand.
45 Somchai // Jan 10, 2008 at 2:00 pm
“Same sky books’ webboard was recently shut down and 2 people were imprisoned last year for lese majeste. Lese majeste is not a libel case as there needs to be no proof of “truth” or “valid criticism for the public interest.” Surely this must be apparent to you. You also do realize that many websites are banned in Thailand and the book the King Never Smiles is not sold in any bookstore in Thailand”
But many people can buy TKNS, right ? although it’s banned. I’m sure you had it and of course, I read it thoroughly. If you feel that Lese Majeste Law must be fixed, why don’t you go to study the Law whether it can be done. To fix law, I think there must be signature from various people. Why don’t you gather people and show your concern in formal and polite way to parliament.
For TKNS, as mentioned earlier, I read it through but do not believe it at all. It’s a good book but still contains some emotional idea of writer. Anyway, it’s just a book with critism but without proof.
Bear in mind, I was born in Issarn and live there. You blamed on Issarn people and never been aware that they are clever than you ; a sophisticated ,civilian and educated middle class . Although you may say it’s just your sarcasm, it’s still in your mind to look down “Issarn” . Not wise, man.
In the town I live , who say like you say about our King is “sin” in our belief. King gave a lot to our people at my province and my town. I can say I grew up because of his mercy to grant the free education and find carreer to our people in town through his project.
Mr. Teth who is a civilian guy. I warn you. Don’t separate people only if they live in Issarn. I can say in Issarn, people love their King wholeheartedly. If you wish to separate this country, just go on looking down people. One day, it becomes true.
My first comment is just to disagree with Somsak who is always sarcatic Royal Family so I asked what they did to Somsak. In the note of Thamasart, as I said many times, it’s just to ask for cooperation to dress up properly. Princess was one of member of Faculty and I just wonder why Somsak still thought that it’s command.
Come to another point, Mr.Teth, I said we’ve our own freedom. I have never felt I’ve been locked or forced to do this or do that but every action must be under law. I can’t hurt you coz it’s not legal, right?
You mention about the website”samesky books” was closed but now it’s opened. I suggest you study why 2 people were put in jail. Is it proper when we still have law to govern?
We know law still exist but if we still break it in this criminal action, no doubt to put in jail. Although no Lese majeste , we still have defamation law.
If you wish to change our Royal Family to be like in UK, you can. Just go to the parliament as suggested. If you don’t have hidden agenda in your intention, it’s in order.
Well, you and Somsak still have freedom to say without charge , right? What is the restriction? If you use critique, no one arrest you but on the other hand, if you aren’t polite not only to Royal family but others , you will of course be put in jail.
Simple logic!
46 Teth // Jan 11, 2008 at 7:11 am
Right…..clearly you haven’t read the book either that or you are too overcome with your own personal relationship with His benevolent majesty. Stop saying its without evidence and actually tell me what it says it false.
Did the King not support dictators? Was the Palace not silent in the 6 Oct massacre? In fact, was it not the King’s forces who instigated the massacre? You ask what he did to me and I tell you that’s what he did to Thailand.
Now tell me is that not “proof”?
Here is the definition of sarcasm and irony, because it seems you don’t properly understand it: the expression of one’s meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
That means I DID NOT ACTUALLY SAY ISARN PEOPLE ARE STUPID! Get that into your head: I was mocking the people who normally think like you, as they usually look down on Isarn people.
In the meantime, he also supported military coups, dictatorships, and massacre of students. Always two sides to a story, eh?
I can also tell you that there will be people in Isarn who don’t love the King, whether you like it or not. Not many, but there will be. And what if I’m a civilian? The Thai military certainly cannot defend the country when they’re too busy destroying it. The police? What are they good for?
I wish to change it like France, not the UK.
Sorry, but if I actually used “critique”, I would be put into jail. I remain free because I remain anonymous while Somsak probably remains free because he watches what he says and says things that are “interpretable.”
Simple logic!
ปล. ผมว่าหากเราสนธนากันด้วยภาษาไทย ผมอาจจะเข้าใจคุณมากขึ้น and vice versa
47 churai // Feb 14, 2008 at 3:10 am
อยากรู้จังเกิดอะไรขึ้น แปลไม่ออก
48 Sidh S. // Feb 14, 2008 at 5:29 pm
A late happy new year Teth!
I see the trench warfare still runs on (here with KhunSomchai). Relative to you, I am in the ‘opposite trench’ and, like many Thais (not all I agree with you), I have been in mourning. Like many Thais, I wore black/white and I paid my respects at the Grand Palace (I wasn’t ‘forced’ – as I’ve mentioned in a post before, I will never be caught in pink unless my Mum forces me to as I usually give in to her. My Aussie friends don’t understand why at this age I still do what she says!). Frankly, I will say losing HM Princess Galayani felt much like when I lost my grandmother some years ago. You may say that there are absolutely no evidences of the good things she did for the Thai people televised round the clock on TV after she passed away but I just prefer to be “deluded” and secure in the belief that here was someone who did wonderful things for the country which really makes me feel good… Just a greeting from my side of the trench. Cheers.
49 Teth // Feb 15, 2008 at 8:31 am
Hello, Sidh, and belated Happy Chinese New Year to you. I’ve actually refrained from this trench warfare on New Mandala lately seeing as the blog authors have chosen to focus on other issues besides Thailand, so Thailand has been a bit off the radar (compared to previously) and so have I. But greetings, regardless!
Its good that you have faith in something, and I won’t take that away from you. But again, I remain in my trench and alas hopefully even when the Christmas carols are over we will be able to see each other in a more reasonable light.
50 Land of Snarls // Feb 16, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Teth, re. your post#46, ‘I wish to change it like France, not the UK,’
are you advocating bloody revolution? I would hope not! But, given that this statement is possible to be interpreted conveniently in this way, and that it is relatively easy to trace internet blogsite posters , it may be a good idea to clarify this.
51 jonfernquest // Feb 17, 2008 at 2:13 pm
“You may say that there are absolutely no evidences of the good things she did for the Thai people televised round the clock on TV after she passed away but I just prefer to be “deluded” and secure in the belief that here was someone who did wonderful things for the country which really makes me feel good…”
Her promotion of French literature and classical music makes her a hero during a time when brain bandwidth is being soaked up by soap operas and celeb magazines like TV Pool or Spicy or…..or loud noisy point and shoot video games with stacks of “virtual” corpses, a noticeable addition to the noise pollution of Bangkok, rows and rows of these deafening games have been placed by Carrefour in their otherwise very nicely French designed food courts reducing them to the lowest common denominator too.
It’s really too bad that people don’t get the **deeper message of HM Princess Galayani’s example.**
52 Teth // Feb 17, 2008 at 11:01 pm
Snarls, I’ve never supported violent changes. If you refer to a previous exchange I had, you’ll find that the practicality of turning into a republic without bloodshed was discussed and I expressed that foremost non-violence is one of the most important criteria.
And if you were to view the history on both sides of the Channel, you will realize that both Britain and France suffered violent revolutions (a king was beheaded on both sides). Therefore, the contrast I was drawing between Britain and France only had to do with the present nature of the heads of state.
53 Land of Snarls // Feb 18, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Thank you Teth. My interpretation of what you have written was in line with your comments in #52. My intention was to caution you that others who may be monitoring this site may choose to conveniently misinterpret, if you give them openings to do so.
In the current political climate, one doesn’t like to see people being unnecessarily reckless. Even in Britain & France (2 democracratic countries which you refer to), at present the security forces are inclined have their own agenda, & to be somewhat hyperactive & make erroneous assumptions based on their citizens’ use of the internet.These are 2 countries with fairly good justice systems, administered by people who in many cases have a love of law & liberty, so it is possible for some of those who are victims of unjust accusations to regain their freedom…after lengthy & expensive legal procedures. Here, things may be somewhat different.
You may be interested to look at the Reporters Without Borders site (http:www.rsf.org ). They have some interesting Media downloads.
Jonfernquest, I couldn’t agree with you more re. Phra Pinang. She was indeed a positive influence. Her encouragement & promotion of civil society organisations, for example, was a real & active contribution to the development of a more democratic society, in which everyone can actively participate. Those who choose to interpret such effort as mere PR for the Establishment are cynical & stupid. The organisations she worked with still exist, & will continue, some of them will provide models for other democracy-promoting projects, & they will be training people in skills necessary for change.
Those who think that a healthy society can come from political parties, revolutions, coups, etc. (i.e. from above), are seriously deluded. Fundamental change in society can only come from fundamental change in the behaviour & thinking of individuals and communities.
54 Teth // Feb 19, 2008 at 2:24 am
Snarls, thank you for your concern.
With regards to Phra Pinang, the fact that she did not meddle in politics or play a role (or so it seems) and actually did spend time (not as publicized while she was alive) promoting the charities and organizations that interested her is credit to her. But once again, her death was an opportunity for the royalist propaganda machine to exploit. She was a good influence on Thai society as you say, but not an exceedingly great one as the propaganda machine exaggerates it to be. But that is not her fault as it was all done post-mortem. To be clear, that is a criticism of the propaganda machine. Phra Pinang’s legacy is better celebrated in her good initiatives and her relative distance from politics.
And ditto with regards to your last paragraph. So many Thais love to blame others when it comes to why “chart mai charoen”.
55 Teth // Feb 19, 2008 at 2:31 am
P.S. With regards to government monitoring, the ICT ministry hasn’t caught the people who hacked their website in defiance of the Cyber Crime Act, right? Even with that three day deadline set by Minister Sittichai…
Nor have they been able to identify the people who posted those YouTube videos. So why bother with minnows like me. Heck, even those on Samesky are still going at it!
56 Sidh S. // Feb 21, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Jonfernquest and Land of Snarls, thanks for sharing my deep appreciation of Phra Pinang’s work.
And thanks Teth. Actually we spend most of the time outside of those ‘trenches’ – as you have mentioned, Thailand is very much off the international radar now that its government is elected. We were in trenches due to circumstances than anything else. In many ways, I find that sad, as it is elected Thai governments that need as much scrutiny, if not more, from us as the monarchy – especially those who seek to really understand the workings of Thai society. After the elections, the bashing the monarchy, ‘network-royalists’, ’sufficient economists’ season seems over – and NM seem to now care less about current political events. For a truly balanced view, let’s now really concentrate on the Shinawatra’s movements as well as the many highly influential figures from Isan like Newin or the North like Yongyuth – or even the old fox PMBanharn. Let’s discuss and analyse Jakrapob and his agendas more. Many of the banned 111 politicians are still making lots of moves behind the scenes through nominees. Let’s have some fun unraveling these fascinatingly entwined networks and connections. There’s so many ‘character developments’ needed here before a more complete story can be pieced together. I am sure NM participants are more than capable of undertaking these tasks. The question is does our interests extends that far? Are we able to see Thai society beyond this self-imposed rigid frame of the monarchy?
The “chart mai charoen” statement is interesting. I wonder if other ‘developing’ countries have a similiar problematic relationship with “kwamcharoen” (what is it exactly anyway?).
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