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	<title>Comments on: Southern insight</title>
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	<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/</link>
	<description>New perspectives on mainland Southeast Asia</description>
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		<title>By: Mark Woodward</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/comment-page-1/#comment-663579</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Woodward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 05:39:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/#comment-663579</guid>
		<description>I am not in any sense a specialist on the Deep South of Thailad. Most all of my research has been on Islam in Indonesia and on the compartive study of ethnic and religious conflict. I was in the region for a brief time a couple of weeks ago. I would appreciate any comments on the following tentative observations.

Ponkok were described as the &quot;core&quot; &quot;center&quot; and &quot;heart&quot; of the Malay-Mus;im community. The absence of mass Muslim organizations such as the Indonesian NU and Muhammadiyah is striking.

Pondok range from quite modern, inter-net savy &quot;schools&quot; that teach at least 50% secular subjects to very traditional schools that teach only religius subjects and rely heavily on Jawi text.

The pattern of attacks on institutions and persons, Buddhist monks, Thai Gov schools by Muslims, and Pondok, Mosques and Imams by Buddhists is typical of religious violence throughout the world.

Theoretical literature would lead to the hypothesis that separitist insurgency and communal violence are merging. This is a very dangerous sign.

The Thai authorities appear to be contemptuous of Muslim-Malays describing them as simple people not much interested in civilization. They focus development activities on subsistence agriculture, fish and poultry production and speak of &quot;winning hearts and minds&quot; 

This combined with efforts to arm and train Thai-Buddhist paramilitaries do not bode well for the future.

I am familiar with trans-national jihadi movements and saw andheard almost nothing to indicate that these figure significantly in the conflict.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not in any sense a specialist on the Deep South of Thailad. Most all of my research has been on Islam in Indonesia and on the compartive study of ethnic and religious conflict. I was in the region for a brief time a couple of weeks ago. I would appreciate any comments on the following tentative observations.</p>
<p>Ponkok were described as the &#8220;core&#8221; &#8220;center&#8221; and &#8220;heart&#8221; of the Malay-Mus;im community. The absence of mass Muslim organizations such as the Indonesian NU and Muhammadiyah is striking.</p>
<p>Pondok range from quite modern, inter-net savy &#8220;schools&#8221; that teach at least 50% secular subjects to very traditional schools that teach only religius subjects and rely heavily on Jawi text.</p>
<p>The pattern of attacks on institutions and persons, Buddhist monks, Thai Gov schools by Muslims, and Pondok, Mosques and Imams by Buddhists is typical of religious violence throughout the world.</p>
<p>Theoretical literature would lead to the hypothesis that separitist insurgency and communal violence are merging. This is a very dangerous sign.</p>
<p>The Thai authorities appear to be contemptuous of Muslim-Malays describing them as simple people not much interested in civilization. They focus development activities on subsistence agriculture, fish and poultry production and speak of &#8220;winning hearts and minds&#8221; </p>
<p>This combined with efforts to arm and train Thai-Buddhist paramilitaries do not bode well for the future.</p>
<p>I am familiar with trans-national jihadi movements and saw andheard almost nothing to indicate that these figure significantly in the conflict.</p>
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		<title>By: New Mandala &#187; Sticking to the southern script</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/comment-page-1/#comment-84153</link>
		<dc:creator>New Mandala &#187; Sticking to the southern script</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2007 04:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/#comment-84153</guid>
		<description>[...] where cultural differences were more profound. In my question I referred to the argument put by McCargo that key dimensions of the southern conflict could be understand in terms of the conflict between [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] where cultural differences were more profound. In my question I referred to the argument put by McCargo that key dimensions of the southern conflict could be understand in terms of the conflict between [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Srithanonchai</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/comment-page-1/#comment-68428</link>
		<dc:creator>Srithanonchai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 04:33:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/#comment-68428</guid>
		<description>DW: One of these PhD students is Sascha Helbardt from the University of Passau, Germany. A few weeks ago, he finished his first four months of initial field orientation. Now, he is back in Germany to try to get funding for a longer stay. The quote above is from him. 

Of course, you are quite right in your remarks about the (im)possibility of doing substantial research in the South. Doing research on a situation without being able directly to analyze the major actors leaves you with a black box and doing research on the effects this black box has, or on factors that supposedly contribute to the shape of the box, rather than with opening this box and look what&#039;s inside.

There is a Thai PhD student at the University of Muenster, Germany, also working on the South. But it seems that he could not go down to the field, probably because of security concerns. I don&#039;t know his name. There should be one or two more people doing work there, but I have no concrete information about them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DW: One of these PhD students is Sascha Helbardt from the University of Passau, Germany. A few weeks ago, he finished his first four months of initial field orientation. Now, he is back in Germany to try to get funding for a longer stay. The quote above is from him. </p>
<p>Of course, you are quite right in your remarks about the (im)possibility of doing substantial research in the South. Doing research on a situation without being able directly to analyze the major actors leaves you with a black box and doing research on the effects this black box has, or on factors that supposedly contribute to the shape of the box, rather than with opening this box and look what&#8217;s inside.</p>
<p>There is a Thai PhD student at the University of Muenster, Germany, also working on the South. But it seems that he could not go down to the field, probably because of security concerns. I don&#8217;t know his name. There should be one or two more people doing work there, but I have no concrete information about them.</p>
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		<title>By: david w</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/comment-page-1/#comment-68180</link>
		<dc:creator>david w</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:06:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/#comment-68180</guid>
		<description>Srithanonchai: Thanks for the suggestions of works to be on the lookout for. I have a copy of Duncan&#039;s recent AAS paper, which was informative as it was filled with on the ground recent empirical details I haven&#039;t previously heard about. Can you provide the names of the PhD students so locating their future work will be easier?

My greatest worry given the need for more on the ground information &amp; documentation AND a paradigm shift in conceptualization and analysis is that because the violence is so severe and unrelenting we are likely to always be looking at events in the rear view mirror of a rapidly accelerating car. All scholarly work is inevitably retrospective, especially regarding contemporary events. But given the dilemma that access to informants is so much harder now than in the past and access to fieldsites is so much more restricted and fragmented than was possible in the past, it is hard to see how scholars can rethink issues in the South in a broadly informed and comprehensive manner. Which makes whatever work does emerge even more valuable, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Srithanonchai: Thanks for the suggestions of works to be on the lookout for. I have a copy of Duncan&#8217;s recent AAS paper, which was informative as it was filled with on the ground recent empirical details I haven&#8217;t previously heard about. Can you provide the names of the PhD students so locating their future work will be easier?</p>
<p>My greatest worry given the need for more on the ground information &amp; documentation AND a paradigm shift in conceptualization and analysis is that because the violence is so severe and unrelenting we are likely to always be looking at events in the rear view mirror of a rapidly accelerating car. All scholarly work is inevitably retrospective, especially regarding contemporary events. But given the dilemma that access to informants is so much harder now than in the past and access to fieldsites is so much more restricted and fragmented than was possible in the past, it is hard to see how scholars can rethink issues in the South in a broadly informed and comprehensive manner. Which makes whatever work does emerge even more valuable, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Sawarin</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/comment-page-1/#comment-67976</link>
		<dc:creator>Sawarin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 08:47:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/#comment-67976</guid>
		<description>My commentary in 7 is for the researchers BP cited in his link.

Many people are still confused and applied the terms &#039;state&#039; and &#039;nation&#039; interchangeably. The meaning of &#039;nation&#039; goes beyond state and there are variations on the way in which it has come to be received by its people.

Anthony D Smith is the one to read for ethno-religious nationalism (and on the entire history of nation/nationalism debate really). John Sidel has a good paper on nationalism in Indonesia last year (it dealt with nationalism as fear/anxiety). John Breuilly is engaging in the role of education/intelligentsia in nationalism (that&#039;s what he told me when I met him a year ago anyway).

There must be a paradigm shift in the study of the South. Time is running out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My commentary in 7 is for the researchers BP cited in his link.</p>
<p>Many people are still confused and applied the terms &#8217;state&#8217; and &#8216;nation&#8217; interchangeably. The meaning of &#8216;nation&#8217; goes beyond state and there are variations on the way in which it has come to be received by its people.</p>
<p>Anthony D Smith is the one to read for ethno-religious nationalism (and on the entire history of nation/nationalism debate really). John Sidel has a good paper on nationalism in Indonesia last year (it dealt with nationalism as fear/anxiety). John Breuilly is engaging in the role of education/intelligentsia in nationalism (that&#8217;s what he told me when I met him a year ago anyway).</p>
<p>There must be a paradigm shift in the study of the South. Time is running out.</p>
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		<title>By: Srithanonchai</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/comment-page-1/#comment-67963</link>
		<dc:creator>Srithanonchai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/#comment-67963</guid>
		<description># 7: A &quot;concept of nation without geography&quot; is also merely a concept, i.e. an imagination. That does not mean that it has not very real behavioral consequences, on the opposite. In Marokko, the state is worried, because the concept of nation propagated by Islamist forces is not the country of Marocco, but rather the Muslim-Arab Nation. In the case of Southern Thailand, however, the geographical focus seems to be rather clear, although some religous references might certainly go beyond the three provinces. It is important to note, as you do, that the previous ethnic nationalism seem to have been replaced by groups that are mlilitantly Islamistic.

# 1: Regarding your interest concerning the factor of &quot;fear&quot;, at the cent AAS conference in Boston, Marc Askew presented a paper antitled &quot;Landscapes of Fear, Horizons of Trust: Dealing With Danger in Thailand&#039;s Insurgent South.&quot; Maybe, we will see this in print at some later point of time. The author of this paper has just started his second round of field data collection in Pattani. Duncan McCargo had also done many months of field work in Pattani, mainly on political aspects, including the Islamic Council elections. He is now writing up his book. A number of PhD students has also taken up the South as an object of study. But research is dangerous. One of them, collecting data in Narathiwat, told me, &quot;I would like to collect some more data in rural areas, but this is life-threatening.&quot;

So, some more publications will certainly see the light, sooner or later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p># 7: A &#8220;concept of nation without geography&#8221; is also merely a concept, i.e. an imagination. That does not mean that it has not very real behavioral consequences, on the opposite. In Marokko, the state is worried, because the concept of nation propagated by Islamist forces is not the country of Marocco, but rather the Muslim-Arab Nation. In the case of Southern Thailand, however, the geographical focus seems to be rather clear, although some religous references might certainly go beyond the three provinces. It is important to note, as you do, that the previous ethnic nationalism seem to have been replaced by groups that are mlilitantly Islamistic.</p>
<p># 1: Regarding your interest concerning the factor of &#8220;fear&#8221;, at the cent AAS conference in Boston, Marc Askew presented a paper antitled &#8220;Landscapes of Fear, Horizons of Trust: Dealing With Danger in Thailand&#8217;s Insurgent South.&#8221; Maybe, we will see this in print at some later point of time. The author of this paper has just started his second round of field data collection in Pattani. Duncan McCargo had also done many months of field work in Pattani, mainly on political aspects, including the Islamic Council elections. He is now writing up his book. A number of PhD students has also taken up the South as an object of study. But research is dangerous. One of them, collecting data in Narathiwat, told me, &#8220;I would like to collect some more data in rural areas, but this is life-threatening.&#8221;</p>
<p>So, some more publications will certainly see the light, sooner or later.</p>
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		<title>By: Sawarin</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/comment-page-1/#comment-67690</link>
		<dc:creator>Sawarin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:26:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/#comment-67690</guid>
		<description>Finally, a number of people are heading towards the right direction. I&#039;d like to add a few things briefly.

: Researchers need to go down to the ground. Go to the pondok (ponoh) religious schools. Access would be extremely difficult around this time (I visited some at peace time). The ones you should be studying normally don&#039;t let you in. Study the role of &#039;toh kru&#039; and remember education is a process of &#039;socialization&#039;.

: I fear that this may be &#039;Nationalism&#039; of most complicated kind. It is &#039;re-li-gi-o-us nationalism&#039;. Psychologists (to study cause of ideology/mind), anthropologists (to study ethno-symbolism), and religion comparativists need to get involved. Historians and political sociologists have to move beond an understanding which suggests the &#039;nation&#039; is an imaginary construct (or isn&#039;t real). Islam transcends modernity. It provides a strong base to a concept of nation without geography and doesn&#039;t necessarily require printed materials to spread Nationalist idea (the fact that something like kitab jawi exists and they are still teaching it has some implication to the idea of ethno-religious homeland?) 

Best of luck to everyone researching the South.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Finally, a number of people are heading towards the right direction. I&#8217;d like to add a few things briefly.</p>
<p>: Researchers need to go down to the ground. Go to the pondok (ponoh) religious schools. Access would be extremely difficult around this time (I visited some at peace time). The ones you should be studying normally don&#8217;t let you in. Study the role of &#8216;toh kru&#8217; and remember education is a process of &#8217;socialization&#8217;.</p>
<p>: I fear that this may be &#8216;Nationalism&#8217; of most complicated kind. It is &#8216;re-li-gi-o-us nationalism&#8217;. Psychologists (to study cause of ideology/mind), anthropologists (to study ethno-symbolism), and religion comparativists need to get involved. Historians and political sociologists have to move beond an understanding which suggests the &#8216;nation&#8217; is an imaginary construct (or isn&#8217;t real). Islam transcends modernity. It provides a strong base to a concept of nation without geography and doesn&#8217;t necessarily require printed materials to spread Nationalist idea (the fact that something like kitab jawi exists and they are still teaching it has some implication to the idea of ethno-religious homeland?) </p>
<p>Best of luck to everyone researching the South.</p>
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		<title>By: Bangkok Pundit</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/comment-page-1/#comment-67620</link>
		<dc:creator>Bangkok Pundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:58:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/#comment-67620</guid>
		<description>Nganadeeleg: Thanks for your nice comments.

I started to post a comment here, but it got to big and without a preview window, I decided to post it over at my blog.

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2007/04/rethinking-thailand-southern-violence.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nganadeeleg: Thanks for your nice comments.</p>
<p>I started to post a comment here, but it got to big and without a preview window, I decided to post it over at my blog.</p>
<p><a href="http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2007/04/rethinking-thailand-southern-violence.html" rel="nofollow">http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2007/04/rethinking-thailand-southern-violence.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Srithanonchai</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/comment-page-1/#comment-67304</link>
		<dc:creator>Srithanonchai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/#comment-67304</guid>
		<description>The situation in the South started to get worse at the end of 2001/beginning of 2002. Quite some recruitment and training must have preceded that initial upsurge, certainly also preceding Thaksin becoming prime minister. However, he had certainly made matters worse by his approach.

As far as I can see, Surayud had expressed his sorrow concerning the lady killed and burned by the insurgents. Please, correct me, but I cannot recall a similar statement regarding the killings of Muslim youth in Pattani and Yala. Have the perpretrators been arrested, and are they under investigation? All I heard were execuses of the kind, &quot;They acted in self-defense.&quot; Is this the emphasis on justice Surayud had announced as the cornerstone of his policy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The situation in the South started to get worse at the end of 2001/beginning of 2002. Quite some recruitment and training must have preceded that initial upsurge, certainly also preceding Thaksin becoming prime minister. However, he had certainly made matters worse by his approach.</p>
<p>As far as I can see, Surayud had expressed his sorrow concerning the lady killed and burned by the insurgents. Please, correct me, but I cannot recall a similar statement regarding the killings of Muslim youth in Pattani and Yala. Have the perpretrators been arrested, and are they under investigation? All I heard were execuses of the kind, &#8220;They acted in self-defense.&#8221; Is this the emphasis on justice Surayud had announced as the cornerstone of his policy?</p>
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		<title>By: nganadeeleg</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/comment-page-1/#comment-67113</link>
		<dc:creator>nganadeeleg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/04/16/southern-insight/#comment-67113</guid>
		<description>Thaksin may have inflamed the situation, but it&#039;s gone way beyond that now.
Patiwat: The soft handed approach was never going to be a quick fix, and in any case it appears to not have been followed up on the ground as evidenced by the latest killings of muslim youths in Pattani &amp; Yala.
If those incidents are not properly investigated and appropriate punishment delivered, then Surayud/Sonthi/Saprang (Prem?) are no better then Thaksin.
Bangkok Pundit&#039;s site is the place to follow the southern insurgency: http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thaksin may have inflamed the situation, but it&#8217;s gone way beyond that now.<br />
Patiwat: The soft handed approach was never going to be a quick fix, and in any case it appears to not have been followed up on the ground as evidenced by the latest killings of muslim youths in Pattani &amp; Yala.<br />
If those incidents are not properly investigated and appropriate punishment delivered, then Surayud/Sonthi/Saprang (Prem?) are no better then Thaksin.<br />
Bangkok Pundit&#8217;s site is the place to follow the southern insurgency: <a href="http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/</a></p>
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