Sufficiency economy is now a notion that pervades numerous aspects of Thai government operation. Sometimes this may signal a real shift in policy but more often, I suspect, it represents a superficial symbol of loyalty to the prevailing wisdom. This proliferation of “sufficiency economy” is obviously of some concern to Kobsak Pootrakool, an analyst from the Bank of Thailand. During his presentation at The Australian National University last week he indicated several times that there is a real risk of “sufficiency economy” being misunderstood and misrepresented in the post-coup rush to adopt its label. His approach was rather more purist and even scriptural. He spent a lot of his time examining the king’s statements about sufficiency economy, extracting from them the essential meanings of moderation, reasonableness and self immunity. This was an eloquent, if rather general, presentation and was largely consistent with the outline of sufficiency economy theory contained in the UNDP’s Thailand Human Development Report (discussed previously on New Mandala). A key argument put forward by Kobsak was that sufficiency economy does not just relate to rural people or the agricultural sector (though this is the sector that furnished his most detailed examples). He was at pains to emphasis that sufficiency economy also applied to the rich – moderation for example may mean buying a half-million dollar house instead of a ten-million dollar house (a rather brave example, I thought, when discussing royal theory). But at the same time he indicated that the progress of sufficiency economy in the Thai business sector was rather limited.
A second presentation was made by ANU economist, and expert on the Thai economy, Peter Warr (based on a paper he had written with Chintana Sandilands). He examined the sufficiency economy approach from a number of different perspectives, linking some of the kings statement’s both with Buddhist belief and developments in the Thai economy over the past few decades. Most interesting was Warr’s discussion of the relationship between sufficiency economy theory and recent economic research on happiness. A number of researchers who have surveyed happiness internationally have found that happiness tends to increase with rising per-capita-GDP but that the increase starts to plateau once national affluence reaches a certain level. Here is one such graph which I have grabbed from the web (I have roughly inserted the trend line):
Warr pointed to a seeming commonality between this research and the sufficiency economy approach (which he prefers to call the “economics of enough”). What the happiness research indicates is that there is a level of “sufficiency” or “enough” beyond which happiness will increase only very modestly. As such it would be moderate, reasonable and risk-averse to not seek to push income or expenditure beyond this sufficiency threshold. In other words, some economic research points to the good sense behind the sufficiency economy approach.
Warr’s presentation raises interesting questions. As one audience member pointed out the graph would appear to indicate that the sufficiency economy approach applies most logically to those on high incomes – it is high income earners who are getting a minimal happiness dividend for their increased income. By contrast, increasing the income of low income earners is likely to significantly increase happiness. So, a progressive tax system that reduced the income of the rich (and only marginally reduced their happiness) and allocated it to the poor (making them much happier) would have a significantly positive effect on gross domestic happiness. A redistribution of government expenditure from urban to rural areas would have a similar impact. I wonder if these approaches to sufficiency economy will be taken up by the Surayud regime?
Following Warr’s presentation, I spoke about the UNDP’s Human Development Report and its enthusiastic endorsement of the sufficiency economy approach. My presentation was based on my previous posts to New Mandala, so I won’t repeat my comments here.
Overall, the seminar was a useful discussion of the sufficiency economy concept from various perspectives. Kobsak’s presentation indicated that there are likely to be many approaches to sufficiency economy within the Thai government – ranging from the rather purist (his approach) to the more overtly pragmatic, political and cynical. It is easy for commentators (like me) to overlook this diversity within the state.
Some other comments raised at the forum:
Kobsak several times said that he and the Bank of Thailand were “worried” by people adopting the “sufficiency economy” as a cover for continuing to operate the same, often controversial, projects. He agreed that there had been little research done on just how well the various “royal” and sufficiency projects actually worked, due to the general fear of criticising anything connected to H.M the King.
An analogy to communism (another doctrine with high ideals and ugly state enforcement) was drawn by some audience members, which Kobsak diplomatically chose not to respond to.
I was interested to note a strong “anti-vice” aspect of Kobsak’s presentation. For example, when asked how New Theory farms managed to produce enough of a surplus to enable people to pay off their debts, he said that because people farming in the new way worked constantly (as opposed to just at planting and harvest time) they had no time to drink or gamble They were thus able to save significant amounts of money and pay their debts (which in itself suggests why this kind of farming doesn’t appeal to the young… ). I found this extremely reminiscent of a Puritan ethic (a la Weber) and rather inconsistent with the usual story, which in my experience is that the debts are paid by selling off farmland and new theory subsistence farming takes place on the remainder.
Kobsak also remarked that the “sufficiency economy” morality was better than the Thaksin government’s 1 million baht funds because the villagers just spent the money on “TVs, mobile phones and motorbikes”, whereupon (at least in the case of the phones) it flowed back to the pockets of “you-know-who”. Various people pointed out that the 1 million baht fund is not really all that large compared to the amount of economic activity in villages. It often translates to about 20,000 per household, whereas households often have debts of 50,000 or more.
Personally I think that giving every farmer in Thailand access to a TV, mobile phone and a motorbike would be one of the best possible things you could do; the power to access information (eg find out what crop prices are, where good jobs are, what the weather will be like tomorrow) is one of the best tools for lifting people out of poverty, and improving their physical mobility certainly doesn’t hurt either. There have been studies in both Thailand and Laos showing the positive economic transformation effect of mobile telephony, which is more than can be said for the sufficiency economy.
I’ve sometimes speculated that the fear of a “mobile peasantry” in Thailand’s elite goes back to the Sakdina days, when farmers were tattoed with the location they were supposed to be and whipped if they were found elsewhere. How you’d trace the evolution of an attitude like that though is beyond my historical research skills.
Quality comment or not?
0
0
“they had no time to drink or gamble. They were thus able to save significant amounts of money and pay their debts … I found this extremely reminiscent of a Puritan ethic (a la Weber)”
I is also what the Chinese Thais have been saying for decades to justify why they were rich while the Thai Thais were poor!
Quality comment or not?
1
0
Weren’t the first officially sanctioned brothels, gambling dens, etc set up to cater to the imported Chinese labour market? Not very consistent with that point of view…
Quality comment or not?
0
0
Pathetic. Only a moron could not see that sufficiency economy discourse has only one, political (NOT economic) purpose: to destroy Thaksin and Thai Rak Thai.
Did anyone at the seminar ask what would happen if one openly criticized sufficiency economy and its chief theorist in Thailand? Did anyone ask whether the Crown Property Bureau was practising sufficiency theory? Did anyone point out that, besides the fact that this theory can only survive by virtue of lese majeste, it has been put into practice by a royalist dictatorship? Say what one likes about the “evil” Thaksin, at least he gave people a choice whether they wanted to use his economic theory or not; the king forces it upon his people at gunpoint. Then he gets foreign academics to discuss it at learned seminars, thus giving it some pathetic credibility which no doubt they will use back home for royalist propaganda purposes. One would have thought a centre of Thai Studies like the ANU would have been able to see through this game. Instead they actually take it seriously! When will the ANU, SOAS and the rest of these international Thai Studies centres realize how they are being used for domestic political advantage?
So Warr is buying into “sufficiency theory”? Unbelieveable. No better statement of the bankruptcy of international Thai Studies, when no-one will speak the truth to a dictatorship. While the ANU is debating the niceties of sufficiency theory, the regime is closing down websites, censoring the media, threatening demonstrators, disbanding mass political parties, all at the barrel of a gun, and constantly seeking (and receiving) legitimacy for its actions from the king.
In Thailand real academics ridicule (secretly of course) sufficiency “theory” (if that is a term we can apply to scarcely coherent ramblings), but at the ANU Thai Studies academics (with one honourable exception) take it seriously.
Quality comment or not?
2
1
Well, the collective cliches of people do not necessarily have to conform that well with historical reality. But the Chinese point of view has a certain level of support since their economic role in Thailand is a lot more prominent than that of the Thais. Even the Thais themselves perceive it this way (sorry for the generalizations). Obviously, not all Chinese made it to become Charathiwats, while not all Thais remained on the ricefields, in the palace, or in the bureaucracy.
Quality comment or not?
0
0
Republican,
The situation is a bit more complex than you make it out to be. Yes, the proliferation of sustainability theories, each more meaningless than the next, is intended almost purely as an assult on Thaksinomics. The fact that these have come pouring out after the coup has several causes, one of which is clearly a push from the junta. It is also clear that the applications of suffficiency economy are often just rebranded Thaksin policies.
However, claiming that the King forces this on people at gunpoint is somewhat misleading. I would agree that the junta is forcing a lot of this at gun point, literally.
However, it is not at all clear that they are actuially acting on behalf of the King. Rather it seems that they are claiming to be Royalist because it deflects criticism and has always worked in the past.
I expect that the cominmg months will show that the army acts for the army. It may get very difficult to claim to be acting on behalf of the King, when he is around to deny it.
Quality comment or not?
0
0
You are certainly right in thinking that the SE thing is being treated as a fashion item by both the conniving and the crass. Here are a number of recent examples of the stupid SE bandwagon.
http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showthread.php?p=14981&posted=1#post14981
Thailand elite are absolutely shameless on issues like this. Where else would the rich go round telling the poor how to live within their means when it is blatantly obvious that they they have absolutely no experience of the subject? Even the dreaded Thaksin had to pretend he came from a modest background. Not to mention the fact that we are constantly bombarded with how frugal life was in a Swiss canton after WW2.
Some people will even steal people’s pauvity given half a chance.
Quality comment or not?
0
0
What the happiness research indicates is that there is a level of “sufficiency” or “enough” beyond which happiness will increase only very modestly. As such it would be moderate, reasonable and risk-averse to not seek to push income or expenditure beyond this sufficiency threshold. In other words, some economic research points to the good sense behind the sufficiency economy approach.
Also makes good sense for the planet.
Quality comment or not?
1
0
Republican:
Actually, the use of “sufficiency theory” against Thaksin and the political and economic aspirations of rural people was explicitly raised by several people; myself and Andrew among them. The fact that royal projects are protected from scrutiny and that “sufficiency economy” is linked to the anti-thaksin agenda of the coup (“sufficiency democracy”) was a key point of Andrew’s presentation, which met no disagreement. Kobsak agreed that royal projects needed much more scrutiny.
The point was also made (by Warr) that the king has been talking about sufficiency economy, etc since 1974 (in the wake of the oil shock) and then it hit the headlines again in 1997 (the currency crisis and stock crash). Both of these are well before Thaksin came on the scene. Though “sufficiency economy” is being used as a weapon against Thaksin now, it significantly pre-dates him as a concept and cannot therefore be said to have only one purpose. Many of the people who embrace it now (eg Sulak Sivaraksa) have been outspoken anti-establishment types for 30 years.
Did anyone point out the risk of lese-majeste if you criticised sufficiency? Yes. Did anyone point a finger at the crown property bureau? Yes. Even people other than Andrew IIRC.
In sum, I would say we take it seriously enough to criticise it as a set of ideas. If there’s an idea, good or bad, on the face of the globe that hasn’t been used as an excuse to point a gun at someone else, I haven’t come across it yet.
Quality comment or not?
1
0
Over three centuries of trail and error, the West is epistemologically exhausted. Needs cannot be fulfilled, and when looked around, progress, if found any, seems to be walking on the opposite lane of happiness.
But never mind, as long as ‘the grass appears to be greener on the other side’.
The search for progress will continue.
Good luck in your journey, educated ones.
Quality comment or not?
0
0
The general idea behind sufficiency farming seems to be universally applicable. For instance, a local school teacher I know (father of a friend in Chiang Rai) grows rice, pumpkin, other vegetables and has a fish pond that supplies food that the family eats during the year. This feeds the three of them and can probably continue feeding the teacher, his wife, and his wife’s mother even after retirement in the near future. Many families seem to do this, so the general sufficiency farming idea probably could probably be seen as an extension of existing best practice in some successful rural communities. Exposure to global economic forces can cause dislocations as evidenced by 1997 so an economy needs to protect itself. The motivations behind having a sufficiency economy are probably pretty universal in the developing world.
Despite everyone wanting to explain the right way to think about sufficiency economy though, the idea seems to mean something different to everyone as evidenced by the following article:
04 June 2007
Privy Councilor advises nation to emulate ants
The Privy Councilor advised the nation to apply the ant’s way of life in their daily lifestyle, especially the virtues of perseverance, endurance, cooperation, and self dependence.
Privy Councilor Ampol Senanarong (อำพล เสนาณรงค์ ) hosted the opening of a museum building at Kasetsart University, which aims to function as a center of research. Mr. Ampol conducted a speech on Living like Ants under a Self Sufficient Economy. He said that despite the ant’s small stature, the animal is hard-working, possesses great fortitude, cooperation, and self dependence.
The Privy Councilor said that members of society are currently lacking in virtue, with lack of kindness, selflessness, or morality. Mr. Ampol revealed that if humans acted like ants, then the nation will develop further.
Reporter : RTI-Reporter06
http://thainews.prd.go.th/newsenglis…d=255006040035
Maybe he is thinking of Aesop’s fable:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ant_and_the_Grasshopper
Quality comment or not?
0
0
I do hope the King has some less scurillous people on his Privy Council than this Khun Ampol.
Quality comment or not?
0
0
Sufficiency Economy surely is a noble ideal but, as usual people will pay respect to it, but not act on it. Everyone can draw examples from their own life I’m sure. For English teachers in Thailand there is an annual conference purportedly for all English teachers in Thailand but the fee is 2,500 baht and and it is held in expensive places like Bangkok, most schools are not willing to pay this fee, and most teachers can’t go. Last year it was even billed as an international conference, which is fine, but an effort to draw in teachers in rural schools who cannot attend, before entering the prestigious and profitable international MICE (Meetings Incentives Conferences and Exhibitions) tourism market would probably be more in accord with Sufficiency Economy. I just received a notice of another English teaching conference in Thailand Friday that I know I won’t be able to afford. It’s really laughable that conferences that should be venues for knowledge building and intellectual exchange are seen as business ideas. THey should hold it in the school auditorium for free.
Quality comment or not?
1
0
It is the utter hypocrisy of sufficiency theory that I find breath-taking. When one looks at the way the Thai royal family actually lives, not to mention the king’s own history of supporting megaprojects for Thailand’s economic development, and then watch him endorse a coup and at the very least “allow” a military junta that has just stolen a trillion baht budget to enforce his pseudo-”theory” at gunpoint, while at the same time forbidding Thais from criticizing the theory on the pain of a 15 year jail sentence for lese majeste (if not worse), well, to me, if one actually takes such a theory “seriously” then it demeans the academic institution involved.
Quality comment or not?
0
0
A happiness index? There is no greater depressing aspect to Western culture than to have a happiness index. How.. nice!
Tonight we sleep under floral manchester!!
Note the comparable purchasing power of Columbia and Russia. Russians depressed yet polemically, the Columbians are happy?
Quality comment or not?
0
0
From my experience, I don’t think that there is a great degree of difference in the happiness of Germans and Thais. Thais might even be happier.
Quality comment or not?
0
0
http://www.bangkokpost.com/050607_front.jpg
The PRD article failed to note that he was making a speech at the opening of an ant museum. The caption reads
“Preserved specimens of various ant species from the Halabala wildlife sanctuary in Yala and Narathiwat provinces are on display at the Ant Museum, run by Kasetsart University’s forestry faculty.— PATTANAPONG HIRUNARD”
Not that this factlet changes anything said here since.
Quality comment or not?
1
0
gave me a real chuckle to read that ‘academics’ were discussing the grand “Sufficiency economy” theory. I thought everyone knew that it had as much meaning as yellow shirts and yellow wristbands. Thais are required to pay lip service to such foolishness, but I never thought foreigners would give it a second thought. I wonder if anyone at the presentation has actually been in a Thai village in the last 10 years.
Quality comment or not?
0
1
I agree with Johnny Appleseed. This academic discussion of SE is giving it a credibility it simply does not deserve. A bit like the yellow shirt thing and foreigners adopting that and the right-wing ideology that goes along with it (BTW, one foreigner did tell me that he couldn’t see any govt officials unless he wore some yellow; not sure if this is widespread).
In Thailand, it is quite clear that SE is an ideological device to mark out the military-installed government as different from Thaksin.
The chief proponents and enforcers of the SE are the military and its govt, and there is remarkable pressure to get on board. That these wealthy members of the elite (with their Porshes, Ferraris, big and expensive houses on golf courses, holiday houses in the mountains and expensive watch collections) is sickening.
Quality comment or not?
0
1
Historicus, don’t you think that this is a problem of the elite all over the world? Your tone is quite patronizing.
Quality comment or not?
1
0
SE, OTOP, Village fund– no matter the name they all aim to keep the poor poor. if you want to help people you educate them and teach them a skill that gives them money, power. the middle class in Thailand live well because they possess skills that led to good jobs. the average villager ends up in a factory or doing construction work, often having to leave their children back home with grandma. all of the time and money wasted on these schemes while children go through school and graduate without anything to help them find proper employment. this is the problem of thailand and the SE is going in the opposite direction.
BTW, the king recently received a brand new Boeing 737 for his personal use. how does that fit into the SE?
Quality comment or not?
0
0
Sufficiency mass transit: anybody for a Thai-designed and built mass transit system?
“Suwat said self-reliance in technology and human resources was needed if Thailand was to reduce construction costs and operating and maintenance expenses.
“Otherwise, we will have to import both technology and experts, as we do today,” he said.
Nakorn of the SRT supported Suwat. He said the current Skytrain and underground services were dependent on foreign technology and experts.
“Half of the cost of these projects is for foreign companies’ technology and experts. People who control their operation and maintenance are foreigners,” Nakorn said.
Suwat suggested looking to Korea. “It has planned its mass-transit projects well. Instead of importing technology and experts, it funded its own human resources with the cooperation of the state, universities and industry.
“After the first project was completed it had a great skill asset able to develop a second, and so on. Now Korea is looking to export this talent and technology.
“We are still dependent on foreigners even after we have built two mass-transit projects,” Nakorn said.”
The Nation, June 10, 2007
Next suggestion would be to start a Thai-led re-invention of the car, the computer, and the mobile phone. It might work if the Thais were Koreans or Japanese…
Quality comment or not?
0
0
SE sounds like a wonderfully patronising statement to the have-nots of the world, “Do not aspire to anything more, because you may risk that the sky will fall on your head one day”. If Thai people think that the status quo in Thailand is economically enough, then a short trip to Isaan or the South should probably change their view pretty quickly.
Of course people should live within their means in the long run as I am sure the people of the US will find out in a few years time when they have to fund their deficit. Of course people should be prudent to minimise the shocks that come along in anyones lifetime. Ideally individuals should make their own provision without having to rely on the state and for those that cannot the state should provide.
However, the rural poor are getting royally ripped off endlessly by their country. They are scammed on food prices, they are scammed on government spending projects and the only answer that SE can provide is “This is the way life is, make provision since you should take care of yourself while I go and buy another Mercedes.”
Happiness indexes are a ridiculous measurement, and so subjective as to be absolutely worthless. If you have a subservient population, and I am sitting in one not too far north of Thailand right now, they are bombarded with so much politicised nonsense that they are brainwashed into believing they are happy. The sun in Thailand improves my happiness no end, whereas ask a Brit in mid winter if he is happy and see the results.
Of course money is not the fountain of all happiness, but neither is being told that “Sorry mate, the rambuthan price collapsed because me and my buddies get together as a cartel and collapsed it. Cheer up, be happy, better luck next year, oh by the way, that loan repayment.”
I have never heard such a worrisome policy in a developing nation as suficiency economy. We have all heard the stereotypical nonsense that Thais don’t know how to handle money and that Chinese do etc etc. There are more fundamental problems that the Thai rural poor do not actually have any money to handle. I have worked in agriculture in Thailand, and Thai farmers are no less smart with their money than American farmers.
The endless chasing of agricultural success in Thailand means that there is a real incentive for the rich to keep the poor in the fields which really only serves to feed the country and to line the pocket of mass of government and business people in Bangkok with their dirty dealings.
The last thing Thailand needs is for its poorest to be told, “Be happy with what you have.” To increase the wealth of a man earning 100 USD by 10% is a far cheaper, economically beneficial and easier project than to increase a millionaires wealth enough so he buy another Mercedes.
If Thailand does not get this right very soon, the rural masses who have had a taste of someone who gave them everything will be wanting someone who can give it them again.
Quality comment or not?
1
0
I’m quite sad on how the “Sufficiency Philosophy” is being criticized, when really IMHO its about:
PHILOSOPHY
Achieving your Optimum Output sustainably– on doing the best you can with (the resources) you have, whilst having time to do other good and fun things! And for Thais, do that with the Award Winning Smile, and That’s it!
I think the philosophy is quite timeless and like any good “common sense”, is another common sense.
What I think it really IS is this: Draw a Line for supply going up, and prices coming down. Draw another line for demand going up and prices going up. Where the lines intersect is the Optimum Output. (So if you have so much brains to supply, Go Ahead Now. If you have so much love, Go Ahead Now! If you have huge Talent, contriubute! Just Do It, have fun, grow sustainably!)
MIDDLE PATH
I think it extends from “the Middle Path” — avoiding extremes, but attaining continual growth sustainably, so you don’t burn out in what you do.
Doing the above help Thailand in the context of, for the sub-poor: not wanting more than you can afford. Theft (plus other crimes), Drug Problem, Stupid Investments, Prostitution stem from that. For the Poor, its about achieving this output on a constant basis AND grow. For street workers keep up the legal work, for the poor but educated, keep up the grunt and keep on toiling. For the medium to rich, its about living a Balanced Life, for a happy family.
MOVING FORWARD SUSTAINABLY
So, its not about Stomping your Foot Where You Are. Its about Progressive Growth in a Sustainable Manner. Can this bad?
I would suggest that people try to get this at a Philosophical level rather than socking it out at an implementation level. If it doesn’t fit the philosophy, then better not go with it.
How it matters to the Thai Economy?
1. “Don’t only Be a Branch Office Economy” – Geez do we have to buy *everything* Sure, if its too complex we can buy, but if we can do (i.e. a) the government sponsors b) the people are ready c) it makes economical sense based on the required resources)
2. “Thaksinism” fails the “Sufficiency Economy” mainly because the objective is already flawed, but because it involves giving money away recklessly for elections, rather than giving away the sustainable know-how for people to live sustainably; Sorry for bringing Thaksinism that high for comparison, really, IMHO its only about getting One Man to the “Richest Man In The World” spot – the objective.
Whilst Capitalism and Democracy Go Hand In Hand, IMHO, “Sufficiency Philosophy” is a “Middle Path” version of Capitalism, though does not strive “Fullest Profit”, but rather, a “Sustained Optimum Output” — which may or may not be Wealth. So to me, it is a higher form.
But since it is not as easy to measure as Capitalism is (Counting Money is Easy), the vagueness of what one considers “Success” is what is causing the confusion.
So I’d advise people to just stick to the Philosophical Level, and you’ll never get lost in its application. (IMHO).
Quality comment or not?
0
0
And yes, I support Thais, all the poor and not-poor ones, to strive the “Sufficiency Philosopy” until they hit the optimum point — at a point when they are Not A Burden To Anyone Else (the government in form of social security, to the family in terms of loans etc.) and up and all the way up the graph gradually!
Quality comment or not?
0
0
Boy! kuson, you have bought the whole kit of elite nationalism. Even the king’s view that welfare makes the plebs lazy! No wonder Thaksin/TRT is so threatening! Hope you get out to the border and fight those nasty Khmer. Seriously, you should sit down and read the criticisms of SE. But I suspect the support for SE is ideologically driven, so the criticism may not matter. But none of your points seem to address the criticisms that were made. You simply state: SE good, Thaksin bad. That gets the debate nowhere.
Quality comment or not?
0
0
Hehehe! Reg, are you stating that “SE bad, Thaksin good”? Let’s have some clarification of your standpoint too so the debate can start.
Quality comment or not?
0
0
Any good sites for reading criticisms of SE, Reg? (I’m quite new here
).
IMHO, Yes Reg, I think it is more ideological but people try to pin it with substance. As I mentioned, its best and easiest to just go back to the Intentions and Start from there [Like Designing], rather than get lost in the context of implementing something where “Success Measurement” is quite non-existent.
I think it is the same as the understanding of Buddhism in Thailand. Its easy to get lost in the Mechanical Context (Go to Temple, Pray, Give this Hindu god some bribe [no one even questions why there is a Hindu god in the first place!], ask for some holy number, Release the Birds, etc etc), and lose the very simple Fundamental Principles (Nirvana, Non-Self, Silp 5) altogether! They try to pin Buddhism with ‘substance’, and lose it altogether.. hahaha.
So I’m hoping that people would take “Sufficiency Philosophy” (not economy as I never touched SE –maybe I’m not supposed to even type my stuff under this thread!) for what it is — a very good guideline for striving for the Optimum.
IMHO.
P.S. Sorry I got into the dirty word Thaksin — I should never have, but his system is Never based on Sustainability, and shouldn’t even be mentioned here.
Quality comment or not?
0
0