Comments on: 14.7 out of 45. An endorsement for the junta? http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/ New perspectives on mainland Southeast Asia Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:28:26 +1100 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Thailand’s army leaders not better than Burma’s « Rule of Lords http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/comment-page-1/#comment-429086 Thailand’s army leaders not better than Burma’s « Rule of Lords Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:27:06 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/#comment-429086 [...] takeover is supposedly popular — a claim made repeatedly after September 2006 that has since been proven false — the window of opportunity will not remain open for long. Its leaders must calculate and [...] [...] takeover is supposedly popular — a claim made repeatedly after September 2006 that has since been proven false — the window of opportunity will not remain open for long. Its leaders must calculate and [...]

]]> By: Nine good men and true http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/comment-page-1/#comment-206005 Nine good men and true Mon, 22 Oct 2007 23:11:18 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/#comment-206005 [...] though the NCCC was selected by the coup makers, Medhi argued that their mandate derives from the electorate’s endorsement of the new constitution. He signalled that the NCCC will be active in pursuing corruption and [...] [...] though the NCCC was selected by the coup makers, Medhi argued that their mandate derives from the electorate’s endorsement of the new constitution. He signalled that the NCCC will be active in pursuing corruption and [...]

]]> By: nganadeeleg http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/comment-page-1/#comment-147862 nganadeeleg Fri, 24 Aug 2007 23:24:00 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/#comment-147862 <i>"At this moment in Thailand’s political development a rejection of Thaksin is in effect a vote for network monarchy."</i> Pundit can answer for himself (if he so desires). IMO neither choice is wholly acceptable, particularly in the long run. Given that choice, at this moment in Thailand's political development, I would choose a monarchy network over a Thaksin network because I think the latter has less of a conscience and is therefore much more dangerous. “At this moment in Thailand’s political development a rejection of Thaksin is in effect a vote for network monarchy.”

Pundit can answer for himself (if he so desires).

IMO neither choice is wholly acceptable, particularly in the long run.

Given that choice, at this moment in Thailand’s political development, I would choose a monarchy network over a Thaksin network because I think the latter has less of a conscience and is therefore much more dangerous.

]]> By: Republican http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/comment-page-1/#comment-147360 Republican Fri, 24 Aug 2007 10:09:42 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/#comment-147360 Reply to Bangkok Pundit: you have a fantastic blogsite, but on this point I’m afraid we may have to agree to disagree. No doubt in a referendum in which 25 million people have cast their ballots there will be numerous reasons for voting yes, no, informal or staying away. But what I don’t quite understand is why it appears (at least from your short comment) hard for you to accept that some people might actually WANT to vote for Thaksin given the chance. His party had three very big election victories; he was hugely popular primarily due to the appeal of his grass-roots policies; Thailand’s economy recovered and grew relatively rapidly under Thai Rak Thai’s management; “Thaksinomics” received much praise internationally; and Thaksin himself is now the only Thai (Asian?) to have managed to buy an English Premier League football team and lure the former team manager of the English national team as his manager (just consider what that means to the Thai voter: Sven-Goran Eriksson, former manager of England, now works for Thaksin). Not only that, but the former Thai Rak Thai party ran a prominent no-vote campaign. The areas where the no-vote was highest were Thai Rak Thai territory. Thai Rak Thai = Thaksin. QED? I hope I haven’t misrepresented you, but you seem to have fallen for the fallacy which Somsak Jeamthirasakul calls the สองไม่เอา position: the rejection of both the royalist-military dictatorship and the rejection of Thaksin. Strategically it is a fallacy, because the only way to defeat the dictatorship and the interests that support it – primarily the king – is through a movement based on the legitimacy of the democratic mandate of the electorate. Before September 19 this electorate was largely controlled by Thai Rak Thai, and even after almost a year of dictatorship the party is still very popular. In terms of one’s own political stance you ought to realize an inconvenient truth here, that is that a rejection of Thaksin amounts to a rejection of the democratic wishes of the majority of the Thai people – under the conditions of a truly free and fair election without interference from the “network”. At this moment in Thailand’s political development a rejection of Thaksin is in effect a vote for network monarchy. As I say, I hope I have not misinterpreted your position; if so, I will look forward to further debate. Reply to Bangkok Pundit: you have a fantastic blogsite, but on this point I’m afraid we may have to agree to disagree.

No doubt in a referendum in which 25 million people have cast their ballots there will be numerous reasons for voting yes, no, informal or staying away. But what I don’t quite understand is why it appears (at least from your short comment) hard for you to accept that some people might actually WANT to vote for Thaksin given the chance. His party had three very big election victories; he was hugely popular primarily due to the appeal of his grass-roots policies; Thailand’s economy recovered and grew relatively rapidly under Thai Rak Thai’s management; “Thaksinomics” received much praise internationally; and Thaksin himself is now the only Thai (Asian?) to have managed to buy an English Premier League football team and lure the former team manager of the English national team as his manager (just consider what that means to the Thai voter: Sven-Goran Eriksson, former manager of England, now works for Thaksin). Not only that, but the former Thai Rak Thai party ran a prominent no-vote campaign. The areas where the no-vote was highest were Thai Rak Thai territory. Thai Rak Thai = Thaksin. QED?

I hope I haven’t misrepresented you, but you seem to have fallen for the fallacy which Somsak Jeamthirasakul calls the สองไม่เอา position: the rejection of both the royalist-military dictatorship and the rejection of Thaksin. Strategically it is a fallacy, because the only way to defeat the dictatorship and the interests that support it – primarily the king – is through a movement based on the legitimacy of the democratic mandate of the electorate. Before September 19 this electorate was largely controlled by Thai Rak Thai, and even after almost a year of dictatorship the party is still very popular. In terms of one’s own political stance you ought to realize an inconvenient truth here, that is that a rejection of Thaksin amounts to a rejection of the democratic wishes of the majority of the Thai people – under the conditions of a truly free and fair election without interference from the “network”. At this moment in Thailand’s political development a rejection of Thaksin is in effect a vote for network monarchy.

As I say, I hope I have not misinterpreted your position; if so, I will look forward to further debate.

]]> By: nganadeeleg http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/comment-page-1/#comment-146510 nganadeeleg Thu, 23 Aug 2007 02:47:11 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/#comment-146510 Pundit: <i>"...who to choose?"</i> Pundit: The answer is to keep trying new ones (instead of rewarding or recycling the same old corrupt ones) Even give some youngbloods a go - if they don't perform, they can always be voted out later! Pundit: “…who to choose?”

Pundit: The answer is to keep trying new ones (instead of rewarding or recycling the same old corrupt ones)

Even give some youngbloods a go – if they don’t perform, they can always be voted out later!

]]> By: Bangkok Pundit http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/comment-page-1/#comment-146345 Bangkok Pundit Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:41:37 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/#comment-146345 Ngandeeleg: But if there are no good alternatives, who to choose? The answer nobody doesn't really cut it. It is easy to say they are all bad, but someone has to be the leader. Ngandeeleg: But if there are no good alternatives, who to choose? The answer nobody doesn’t really cut it. It is easy to say they are all bad, but someone has to be the leader.

]]> By: Bangkok Pundit http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/comment-page-1/#comment-146340 Bangkok Pundit Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:37:33 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/#comment-146340 Republican: With respect, I disagree. I know some "no vote" people and they certainly didn't like Thaksin, they just hate the CNS. I also know some Thaksin supporters who abstained and voted yes. Republican: With respect, I disagree. I know some “no vote” people and they certainly didn’t like Thaksin, they just hate the CNS. I also know some Thaksin supporters who abstained and voted yes.

]]> By: Republican http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/comment-page-1/#comment-146136 Republican Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:36:45 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/#comment-146136 Half the country remains under martial law, the government is controlled by a royalist dictatorship, the mass Thai Rak Thai party has just been destroyed, its leader exiled and his assets seized, the mass media is totally controlled by the regime, the military and bureaucracy have thrown hundreds of millions of baht into a Yes campaign, and the rubber-stamp legislature passes a bill imposing a ten-year prison sentence on those found guilty of “influencing or persuading” the way people make their choice in the referendum – and yet 42% of the electorate still vote “No”. Of course, the “No” vote is a vote for Thaksin and Thai Rak Thai. Given the royalists’ repeated public denunciations of Thaksin as an enemy of the throne, if I was the king – not to mention all the interest groups that live off the monarchy – I would be very worried. Half the country remains under martial law, the government is controlled by a royalist dictatorship, the mass Thai Rak Thai party has just been destroyed, its leader exiled and his assets seized, the mass media is totally controlled by the regime, the military and bureaucracy have thrown hundreds of millions of baht into a Yes campaign, and the rubber-stamp legislature passes a bill imposing a ten-year prison sentence on those found guilty of “influencing or persuading” the way people make their choice in the referendum – and yet 42% of the electorate still vote “No”.

Of course, the “No” vote is a vote for Thaksin and Thai Rak Thai.

Given the royalists’ repeated public denunciations of Thaksin as an enemy of the throne, if I was the king – not to mention all the interest groups that live off the monarchy – I would be very worried.

]]> By: Sidh S. http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/comment-page-1/#comment-145154 Sidh S. Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:35:14 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/#comment-145154 More than anything else, maybe the 'yes' vote is a pragmatic Thai vote - less a support for the junta or a no against Thaksin. It's a 'let's get on with life', apolitical vote. Contrary to how many commentators view this refendum that there is 'no choice' - the choice may be obvious for most Thais a (hopeful) return to normalcy Vs. extended political uncertainties. Students of Thailand and Thai society would know better that idealism isn't part of mainstream Thai cultural practice, ruled by pragmatism and compromise. This naturally disappoints many Western observers and Western-trained Thais. Ofcourse, there are aspirations to become 'modernized' and truly 'democratic' but there seem to be no hurry to get there (for most see it as impractical?). The 1997 'People's Constitution' was an ideal blueprint for both - but Mr.Thaksin organized an 'oligarchs coup' that focused on modernization but neglected democracy/rule of law/human rights... In this context, maybe the 'no' vote is simpler to explain especially its predominance in North and Northeastern provinces. Again, I will argue even that is a practical vote, not necessarily merely an affirmation for Thaksin's patronage, but for formal policies that are directly responsive to their needs. Practical politicians, of any party, will know what to do for the upcoming election - and what to do when they are government... I am painting a rosy picture towards 'normalcy' - it is what I am speculating is in the mind of Thai voters on Sunday. This, ofcourse, can easily disrupted by ambitious generals and Mr.Thaksin protecting his every baht of wealth... More than anything else, maybe the ‘yes’ vote is a pragmatic Thai vote – less a support for the junta or a no against Thaksin. It’s a ‘let’s get on with life’, apolitical vote. Contrary to how many commentators view this refendum that there is ‘no choice’ – the choice may be obvious for most Thais a (hopeful) return to normalcy Vs. extended political uncertainties.

Students of Thailand and Thai society would know better that idealism isn’t part of mainstream Thai cultural practice, ruled by pragmatism and compromise. This naturally disappoints many Western observers and Western-trained Thais. Ofcourse, there are aspirations to become ‘modernized’ and truly ‘democratic’ but there seem to be no hurry to get there (for most see it as impractical?). The 1997 ‘People’s Constitution’ was an ideal blueprint for both – but Mr.Thaksin organized an ‘oligarchs coup’ that focused on modernization but neglected democracy/rule of law/human rights…

In this context, maybe the ‘no’ vote is simpler to explain especially its predominance in North and Northeastern provinces. Again, I will argue even that is a practical vote, not necessarily merely an affirmation for Thaksin’s patronage, but for formal policies that are directly responsive to their needs. Practical politicians, of any party, will know what to do for the upcoming election – and what to do when they are government…

I am painting a rosy picture towards ‘normalcy’ – it is what I am speculating is in the mind of Thai voters on Sunday. This, ofcourse, can easily disrupted by ambitious generals and Mr.Thaksin protecting his every baht of wealth…

]]> By: nganadeeleg http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/comment-page-1/#comment-144459 nganadeeleg Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:13:48 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/08/20/14-out-of-45-an-endorsement-for-the-junta/#comment-144459 Great post serf. Apart from the heading offshore aspect, I agree entirely (unusual for me). That's why I've been banging on for months about the electorate having to be more discerning. The only way things can get any better is if the electorate keep turfing out (rejecting) politicians until finally they get the idea that they need to change (improve). I had no problems with giving Thaksin a go, but he should have been rejected once his true colors were apparent. I know it's more complex when there are vested interests, no good alternatives, and obvious dangers, but at least it would be a start. That's also why I am really pissed off at TRT for rolling over to Thaksin instead of moderating his worst behaviors. (look where it has got them !) Great post serf.
Apart from the heading offshore aspect, I agree entirely (unusual for me).

That’s why I’ve been banging on for months about the electorate having to be more discerning.
The only way things can get any better is if the electorate keep turfing out (rejecting) politicians until finally they get the idea that they need to change (improve).
I had no problems with giving Thaksin a go, but he should have been rejected once his true colors were apparent.
I know it’s more complex when there are vested interests, no good alternatives, and obvious dangers, but at least it would be a start.

That’s also why I am really pissed off at TRT for rolling over to Thaksin instead of moderating his worst behaviors.
(look where it has got them !)

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