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	<title>Comments on: Observing an electoral fiction</title>
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	<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/</link>
	<description>New perspectives on mainland Southeast Asia</description>
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		<title>By: James Haughton</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-179236</link>
		<dc:creator>James Haughton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:32:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/#comment-179236</guid>
		<description>Re: 13, 15, 23, 24, Corruption at the top and honesty at the bottom:
I&#039;ve just reread Kasian Tejapira&#039;s &quot;Toppling Thaksin&quot;  (New Left Review 39, May 2006) which rather presciently predicted the palace was prepared to take more exteme action against Thaksin. It points out that on 3rd October 2003 the King made a speech against corruption and mobilised the &quot;monarchical network&quot; against corruption, peaking in televised anti-corruption hearings in December 2005. Since the TI index rating for Thailand began to climb in 2003, it may well be that the country became cleaner at low levels due to royal action, rather than any leadership from Thaksin&#039;s government.

I also note, however, that the 2006 and 2007 figures are now in: 
http://www.transparency-thailand.org/en/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=13&amp;Itemid=1

and they show a sharp decline in Thailand&#039;s ratings (back down to 3.3), which must be laid at least partly at the door of the coup government who have held power all of this year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: 13, 15, 23, 24, Corruption at the top and honesty at the bottom:<br />
I&#8217;ve just reread Kasian Tejapira&#8217;s &#8220;Toppling Thaksin&#8221;  (New Left Review 39, May 2006) which rather presciently predicted the palace was prepared to take more exteme action against Thaksin. It points out that on 3rd October 2003 the King made a speech against corruption and mobilised the &#8220;monarchical network&#8221; against corruption, peaking in televised anti-corruption hearings in December 2005. Since the TI index rating for Thailand began to climb in 2003, it may well be that the country became cleaner at low levels due to royal action, rather than any leadership from Thaksin&#8217;s government.</p>
<p>I also note, however, that the 2006 and 2007 figures are now in:<br />
<a href="http://www.transparency-thailand.org/en/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=13&amp;Itemid=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.transparency-thailand.org/en/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=13&amp;Itemid=1</a></p>
<p>and they show a sharp decline in Thailand&#8217;s ratings (back down to 3.3), which must be laid at least partly at the door of the coup government who have held power all of this year.</p>
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		<title>By: nganadeeleg</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-165031</link>
		<dc:creator>nganadeeleg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/#comment-165031</guid>
		<description>Restorationist: I am unable to answer your question - I have never suggested, and cannot see any good reason, for a blind eye to be turned to the manipulation of politics (by anyone).

I do not see any need for me to spend my time repeating the various criticisms of the coup and the &lt;b&gt;assertions&lt;/b&gt; of palace involvement - there are ample commentators doing that, here at New Mandala, and elsewhere.

I prefer to spend my time pointing out the &lt;i&gt;somnamna&lt;/i&gt; aspects of certain actions, in the hope that some academics here might take that on board.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Restorationist: I am unable to answer your question &#8211; I have never suggested, and cannot see any good reason, for a blind eye to be turned to the manipulation of politics (by anyone).</p>
<p>I do not see any need for me to spend my time repeating the various criticisms of the coup and the <b>assertions</b> of palace involvement &#8211; there are ample commentators doing that, here at New Mandala, and elsewhere.</p>
<p>I prefer to spend my time pointing out the <i>somnamna</i> aspects of certain actions, in the hope that some academics here might take that on board.</p>
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		<title>By: Restorationist</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-164684</link>
		<dc:creator>Restorationist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/#comment-164684</guid>
		<description>nganadeeleg  suggests that I should &quot;worry more about the blind eye that the electorate turns to wrongdoings - if that eye was opened there would have been no chance of a coup,&quot; and adds &quot;Play the partisan game if you want, but I would prefer for the groundwork to be laid such that coups would no longer be considered necessary or possible.&quot;

I repeat my question - why should we turn a blind eye to the current manipulation of politics by the palace-royalist military? If nganadeeleg  thinks that this manipulation is likely to lay the groundwork so that coups don&#039;t happen again, then nganadeeleg  is, IMO, doing no more than supporting the institution of a political system that is likely to lead to further corruption and elite control. Look at the dinosaurs lining up for their turn at the national buffet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nganadeeleg  suggests that I should &#8220;worry more about the blind eye that the electorate turns to wrongdoings &#8211; if that eye was opened there would have been no chance of a coup,&#8221; and adds &#8220;Play the partisan game if you want, but I would prefer for the groundwork to be laid such that coups would no longer be considered necessary or possible.&#8221;</p>
<p>I repeat my question &#8211; why should we turn a blind eye to the current manipulation of politics by the palace-royalist military? If nganadeeleg  thinks that this manipulation is likely to lay the groundwork so that coups don&#8217;t happen again, then nganadeeleg  is, IMO, doing no more than supporting the institution of a political system that is likely to lead to further corruption and elite control. Look at the dinosaurs lining up for their turn at the national buffet.</p>
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		<title>By: Srithanonchai</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-164615</link>
		<dc:creator>Srithanonchai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:03:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/#comment-164615</guid>
		<description>I actually share your opinion, nganadeeleg: If Thaksin had acted differently, a coup would not have happened. Right until the Shin Corp sale, he was in largely safe waters. Only this sale started the process of providing not so much the reasons for the coup, but the excuses for the engaged groups that they had to give themselves to allow them do what they knew (or should have known)  was wrong from a democratic perspective.

As for the 111 TRT board members: Who should have been punished is a mute question, because the Political Party Law only allowed for dissolution and collective punishment (this was not a criminal case). Still, the decision was unlawful. Not because it retroactively applied a coup group announcement, but because the circumstances of the case could never be subsumed under the articles of the law (destruction of democracy, endangering of national security). 

The dissolution decision was the fourth instance of using the law as a political tool (1: Thaksin&#039;s acquittal in 2001); 2) nullification of the election of April 2006; 3) getting rid of the old ECT and appointing a new ECT).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually share your opinion, nganadeeleg: If Thaksin had acted differently, a coup would not have happened. Right until the Shin Corp sale, he was in largely safe waters. Only this sale started the process of providing not so much the reasons for the coup, but the excuses for the engaged groups that they had to give themselves to allow them do what they knew (or should have known)  was wrong from a democratic perspective.</p>
<p>As for the 111 TRT board members: Who should have been punished is a mute question, because the Political Party Law only allowed for dissolution and collective punishment (this was not a criminal case). Still, the decision was unlawful. Not because it retroactively applied a coup group announcement, but because the circumstances of the case could never be subsumed under the articles of the law (destruction of democracy, endangering of national security). </p>
<p>The dissolution decision was the fourth instance of using the law as a political tool (1: Thaksin&#8217;s acquittal in 2001); 2) nullification of the election of April 2006; 3) getting rid of the old ECT and appointing a new ECT).</p>
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		<title>By: nganadeeleg</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-164541</link>
		<dc:creator>nganadeeleg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:55:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/#comment-164541</guid>
		<description>Dickie: Yes I would support an amnesty for most of the 111 because
I think the verdict was too harsh and cast the net too wide.
 (IMO, only the executive and anyone with direct involvement should have been punished)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dickie: Yes I would support an amnesty for most of the 111 because<br />
I think the verdict was too harsh and cast the net too wide.<br />
 (IMO, only the executive and anyone with direct involvement should have been punished)</p>
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		<title>By: nganadeeleg</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-164513</link>
		<dc:creator>nganadeeleg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:29:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/#comment-164513</guid>
		<description>I think the democratic process had moved along,  especially after the 1997 constitution, and I actually thought that coups were a thing of the past - but who knew a Thaksin would come along!

I&#039;m no fan of Sondhi L, or the Thai military, police or aristocracy, however I still think that all this blame on the Bangkok elite, media and certain academics for laying the ground for a coup misses the point - if Thaksin had modified his behavior, been less manipulative, shown some humility and paid fair taxes, then there is no way a coup would have been possible, because Thailand &lt;b&gt;had&lt;/b&gt; moved on since the early 1990&#039;s.  
Even if the old guard wanted a coup, there is no way it would have been acceptable had Thaksin been straight instead of manipulating the institutions in his favor. 

Dickie: I&#039;m not so concerned about appointed senators, because many good people refuse to play the political game for fear of being dragged down into the dirt (and unfortunately many who have something to offer are virtually unelectable unless they have the right connections &amp;/or money)

As long as the media &amp; public scrutinize the senate appointments, and call out any ill qualified appointees, then I actually think there is more chance of getting better senators under the appointment method than by direct election.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the democratic process had moved along,  especially after the 1997 constitution, and I actually thought that coups were a thing of the past &#8211; but who knew a Thaksin would come along!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m no fan of Sondhi L, or the Thai military, police or aristocracy, however I still think that all this blame on the Bangkok elite, media and certain academics for laying the ground for a coup misses the point &#8211; if Thaksin had modified his behavior, been less manipulative, shown some humility and paid fair taxes, then there is no way a coup would have been possible, because Thailand <b>had</b> moved on since the early 1990&#8217;s.<br />
Even if the old guard wanted a coup, there is no way it would have been acceptable had Thaksin been straight instead of manipulating the institutions in his favor. </p>
<p>Dickie: I&#8217;m not so concerned about appointed senators, because many good people refuse to play the political game for fear of being dragged down into the dirt (and unfortunately many who have something to offer are virtually unelectable unless they have the right connections &amp;/or money)</p>
<p>As long as the media &amp; public scrutinize the senate appointments, and call out any ill qualified appointees, then I actually think there is more chance of getting better senators under the appointment method than by direct election.</p>
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		<title>By: Srithanonchai</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-164413</link>
		<dc:creator>Srithanonchai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:12:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/#comment-164413</guid>
		<description>nganadeeleg: 

Societal formations and its components, here the polity, normally move very slowly. There had not been any coups since 1991, there had been a new constitution and a number of elections. Political communications in rural areas have increased tremendously due to the decentralization process, which is, however, far from perfect. I am not impressed by the political parties, and neither by the politicians. But, then, I am also not impressed by Thai journalists, businessmen, bureaucrats, teachers, and university academics. Their good luck is that they don&#039;t have to pass through election processes for getting their jobs, that they will normally keep them even if they work lousily and are corrupt, and that they are not under constant observation by the public and the mass media. 

Part of development is generational, meaning that people who look at politics through their experiences of the past 40 to 60 years will by and by be replaced by new generations whose socio-political starting points will be considerably different in many respects. Simply speaking, Kamnan Pho&#039;s kids are foreign-educated, etc.

Maybe, I am too jai yen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nganadeeleg: </p>
<p>Societal formations and its components, here the polity, normally move very slowly. There had not been any coups since 1991, there had been a new constitution and a number of elections. Political communications in rural areas have increased tremendously due to the decentralization process, which is, however, far from perfect. I am not impressed by the political parties, and neither by the politicians. But, then, I am also not impressed by Thai journalists, businessmen, bureaucrats, teachers, and university academics. Their good luck is that they don&#8217;t have to pass through election processes for getting their jobs, that they will normally keep them even if they work lousily and are corrupt, and that they are not under constant observation by the public and the mass media. </p>
<p>Part of development is generational, meaning that people who look at politics through their experiences of the past 40 to 60 years will by and by be replaced by new generations whose socio-political starting points will be considerably different in many respects. Simply speaking, Kamnan Pho&#8217;s kids are foreign-educated, etc.</p>
<p>Maybe, I am too jai yen.</p>
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		<title>By: Dickie Simpkins</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-164321</link>
		<dc:creator>Dickie Simpkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/#comment-164321</guid>
		<description>nganadeeleg,

I&#039;ll answer that question (if you don&#039;t mind).

Nope. Nein. Nyet. Nahin. Iya. Mai.

I wish I knew more languages to say no in.. though I&#039;m more interested to learn how to say &#039;yea baby yea&#039; Austin power style in many languages.

At least until Thai Democracy can give equal representation in parliament (be it an upper house) wherein each province gets 1 or 2 elected representatives, I think not.

I was kinda happy (at first) upon reading that there will be 1 senator per province. But I hate the idea that the remainders will be &#039;selected&#039;. Absolutely disgusting concept. Either way, i hope the next government will amend that and maybe compromise at somehere between 20-22 &#039;appointed&#039; senators only. That way we can have a 100 seat senate, and reduce by more than half the damn selected senators. Then hopefully down the road somewhere, we can rid of them fully.

I have a question for you ngadeleeg: Do you support giving amnesty to the 111 executives provided they recognize and apologize their wrongdoing?

cheers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nganadeeleg,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll answer that question (if you don&#8217;t mind).</p>
<p>Nope. Nein. Nyet. Nahin. Iya. Mai.</p>
<p>I wish I knew more languages to say no in.. though I&#8217;m more interested to learn how to say &#8216;yea baby yea&#8217; Austin power style in many languages.</p>
<p>At least until Thai Democracy can give equal representation in parliament (be it an upper house) wherein each province gets 1 or 2 elected representatives, I think not.</p>
<p>I was kinda happy (at first) upon reading that there will be 1 senator per province. But I hate the idea that the remainders will be &#8217;selected&#8217;. Absolutely disgusting concept. Either way, i hope the next government will amend that and maybe compromise at somehere between 20-22 &#8216;appointed&#8217; senators only. That way we can have a 100 seat senate, and reduce by more than half the damn selected senators. Then hopefully down the road somewhere, we can rid of them fully.</p>
<p>I have a question for you ngadeleeg: Do you support giving amnesty to the 111 executives provided they recognize and apologize their wrongdoing?</p>
<p>cheers.</p>
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		<title>By: nganadeeleg</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-164280</link>
		<dc:creator>nganadeeleg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/#comment-164280</guid>
		<description>Srithanonchai:  It still gets back to corruption, in one form or other.

Do you think the democratic process has moved along at all in the last 15 years?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Srithanonchai:  It still gets back to corruption, in one form or other.</p>
<p>Do you think the democratic process has moved along at all in the last 15 years?</p>
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		<title>By: Srithanonchai</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-164171</link>
		<dc:creator>Srithanonchai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 07:56:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2007/09/10/observing-an-electoral-fiction/#comment-164171</guid>
		<description>&quot;that coups would no longer be considered necessary or possible.&quot; &gt;&gt; More like: &quot; So that coups cannot any longer be retroactively be justified with reference to the electorat&#039;s supposed ignorance.&quot; The NPKC coup, btw, was not justified in this way, as far as I can remember.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;that coups would no longer be considered necessary or possible.&#8221; &gt;&gt; More like: &#8221; So that coups cannot any longer be retroactively be justified with reference to the electorat&#8217;s supposed ignorance.&#8221; The NPKC coup, btw, was not justified in this way, as far as I can remember.</p>
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