Comments on: The return of the king http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/ New perspectives on mainland Southeast Asia Mon, 23 Nov 2009 03:46:18 +1100 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Teth http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/comment-page-1/#comment-372238 Teth Sun, 02 Mar 2008 14:51:30 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/#comment-372238 Jon, from your latest post, I really hope you see my point with regards to your standards for calling people heroes. "When soldiers start acting in ways worthy of respect, they are heroes." -- Such a way is by not staging a coup. But if Sonthi had never staged a coup, you would've never called him a hero. I stand by my point that you cannot begin calling everyone a hero just for doing their job. They have to do their job in exceptional and treacherous circumstances, display bravery and adherence to their principles for them to be called heroes. The Generals such as Sonthi or Saprang? No, their job was not to stage a coup or seize power. And no, what they did didn't help anybody nor was it a display of bravery of courage or lofty principles. Jon, from your latest post, I really hope you see my point with regards to your standards for calling people heroes.

“When soldiers start acting in ways worthy of respect, they are heroes.” — Such a way is by not staging a coup. But if Sonthi had never staged a coup, you would’ve never called him a hero. I stand by my point that you cannot begin calling everyone a hero just for doing their job. They have to do their job in exceptional and treacherous circumstances, display bravery and adherence to their principles for them to be called heroes.

The Generals such as Sonthi or Saprang? No, their job was not to stage a coup or seize power. And no, what they did didn’t help anybody nor was it a display of bravery of courage or lofty principles.

]]> By: Dog Lover http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/comment-page-1/#comment-372184 Dog Lover Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:31:22 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/#comment-372184 johnfernquest: "That they’ve learned to **not kill** people in certain contexts is noteworthy and praiseworthy." When they learn not to kill civilians in contexts such as Tak Bai maybe then they deserve some praise. To praise them for - at the moment - not " hav[ing] thrown a monkey wrench in the works but they didn’t" seems giving them way, way too much credit. Historically, they are unworthy of praise or respect. Presently, one act of (presumed) good judgment hardly constitutes an historical watershed. johnfernquest: “That they’ve learned to **not kill** people in certain contexts is noteworthy and praiseworthy.” When they learn not to kill civilians in contexts such as Tak Bai maybe then they deserve some praise. To praise them for – at the moment – not ” hav[ing] thrown a monkey wrench in the works but they didn’t” seems giving them way, way too much credit. Historically, they are unworthy of praise or respect. Presently, one act of (presumed) good judgment hardly constitutes an historical watershed.

]]> By: jonfernquest http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/comment-page-1/#comment-371445 jonfernquest Sun, 02 Mar 2008 04:12:23 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/#comment-371445 "Let me get this right. The military leaders who ran a coup in the name of preserving democracy and protecting the monarchy and thereby overthrew a popularly elected and popular government (albeit one that was flawed in many ways), imposed martial law, fixed a constitution and so on are heroes." Yep. May not seem like it now, but give historians some time. A bloodless coup nowadays makes a hero. Soldiers kill people. That's their job. That they've learned to **not kill** people in certain contexts is noteworthy and praiseworthy. I remember a lecture by McCoy on torture in the Phillipines at SEASSI at University of Wisconsin in which he described an interview with Gringo Honasan with his aquarium of piranhas and James Bond toys in the background. When soldiers start acting in ways worthy of respect, they are heroes. If you can see the implicit contradictions and ironies of events over the last year and a half, maybe you should look a little closer. “Let me get this right. The military leaders who ran a coup in the name of preserving democracy and protecting the monarchy and thereby overthrew a popularly elected and popular government (albeit one that was flawed in many ways), imposed martial law, fixed a constitution and so on are heroes.”

Yep. May not seem like it now, but give historians some time.
A bloodless coup nowadays makes a hero. Soldiers kill people. That’s their job. That they’ve learned to **not kill** people in certain contexts is noteworthy and praiseworthy.

I remember a lecture by McCoy on torture in the Phillipines at SEASSI at University of Wisconsin in which he described an interview with Gringo Honasan with his aquarium of piranhas and James Bond toys in the background. When soldiers start acting in ways worthy of respect, they are heroes.

If you can see the implicit contradictions and ironies of events over
the last year and a half, maybe you should look a little closer.

]]> By: Dog Lover http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/comment-page-1/#comment-370182 Dog Lover Sat, 01 Mar 2008 10:27:37 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/#comment-370182 jonfernquest : Let me get this right. The military leaders who ran a coup in the name of preserving democracy and protecting the monarchy and thereby overthrew a popularly elected and popular government (albeit one that was flawed in many ways), imposed martial law, fixed a constitution and so on are heroes. They are heroes because they did not do worse than this. They they broke the law and scrapped a constitution and then passed laws to protect themselves makes them somehow unpunishable. Yeh, right. jonfernquest : Let me get this right. The military leaders who ran a coup in the name of preserving democracy and protecting the monarchy and thereby overthrew a popularly elected and popular government (albeit one that was flawed in many ways), imposed martial law, fixed a constitution and so on are heroes. They are heroes because they did not do worse than this. They they broke the law and scrapped a constitution and then passed laws to protect themselves makes them somehow unpunishable. Yeh, right.

]]> By: Teth http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/comment-page-1/#comment-370141 Teth Sat, 01 Mar 2008 09:55:52 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/#comment-370141 Jon, I know what you mean, but I had hoped your standards were higher. To call them "heroes" is WAYYY over the top, first, because they seriously undermined the country for their own greed (not only for money but for power). Secondly, they knew they could not have stayed on with the current state of civil politics which is why they tried underhand tactics like the NLA law machine or the new security bill. So they were pretty much forced to do what they've done. Heroes? No. All they deserve is no revenge since they actually kept their promise. Jon, I know what you mean, but I had hoped your standards were higher. To call them “heroes” is WAYYY over the top, first, because they seriously undermined the country for their own greed (not only for money but for power). Secondly, they knew they could not have stayed on with the current state of civil politics which is why they tried underhand tactics like the NLA law machine or the new security bill. So they were pretty much forced to do what they’ve done.

Heroes? No. All they deserve is no revenge since they actually kept their promise.

]]> By: jonfernquest http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/comment-page-1/#comment-369871 jonfernquest Sat, 01 Mar 2008 05:32:59 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/#comment-369871 Teth wrote: "...if you were to praise somebody every time they do something they’re supposed to, you’ll be out of breath really soon." The historical pattern is political involvement of military followed by less political involvement, from coup maker rent seeker to narrowly focused professional soldier. This pattern holds true almost everywhere I look. South Korea used to be ruled by a brutal military regime. The military has made the transition to professional army. Same in Chile. In the Phillipines coups don't seem to be as effective as they used to and non-military PMs are the norm. I would start with the historical pattern, then go to what should be the case. What should be the case should have a reasonable relation to what can be the case. If you look at this way, Sonthi and the rest of the coup makers are heroes for not pressing it further and the forces that be in Thai society will recognise this and at least not punish them for this. It could have been a lot worse. Teth wrote: “…if you were to praise somebody every time they do something they’re supposed to, you’ll be out of breath really soon.”

The historical pattern is political involvement of military followed by less political involvement, from coup maker rent seeker to narrowly focused professional soldier.

This pattern holds true almost everywhere I look.
South Korea used to be ruled by a brutal military regime.
The military has made the transition to professional army.
Same in Chile. In the Phillipines coups don’t seem to be as
effective as they used to and non-military PMs are the norm.

I would start with the historical pattern, then go to what should be the case. What should be the case should have a reasonable relation to what can be the case.

If you look at this way, Sonthi and the rest of the coup makers are heroes for not pressing it further and the forces that be in Thai society will recognise this and at least not punish them for this. It could have been a lot worse.

]]> By: Thad Williamson http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/comment-page-1/#comment-369794 Thad Williamson Sat, 01 Mar 2008 04:23:09 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/#comment-369794 Sidh is presumably referring to the FA's rules on giving permits to non-EU players, which actually are pretty rigorously and consistently enforced (though occasional exceptions are made). The Thai players Manchester City have signed are nowhere close to meeting the requirements for a permit, hence they've been farmed out to the affiliates. Thaksin does appear to have played his hand pretty brilliantly over the last 9 months or so. Sidh is presumably referring to the FA’s rules on giving permits to non-EU players, which actually are pretty rigorously and consistently enforced (though occasional exceptions are made). The Thai players Manchester City have signed are nowhere close to meeting the requirements for a permit, hence they’ve been farmed out to the affiliates.

Thaksin does appear to have played his hand pretty brilliantly over the last 9 months or so.

]]> By: Teth http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/comment-page-1/#comment-368737 Teth Fri, 29 Feb 2008 19:25:40 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/#comment-368737 "but he couldn’t ‘buy’ English working permits" - Sidh, you speak as if the British bureaucracy is a shining beacon we should aspire to. You're having a laugh. An independent commission comes out every week, perhaps, slagging the government or top civil servants. And people like the FA illustrate the British bureaucracy's general idiocy, really. They can choose to be "nice" to someone and completely anal to another... “but he couldn’t ‘buy’ English working permits” – Sidh, you speak as if the British bureaucracy is a shining beacon we should aspire to. You’re having a laugh.

An independent commission comes out every week, perhaps, slagging the government or top civil servants.

And people like the FA illustrate the British bureaucracy’s general idiocy, really. They can choose to be “nice” to someone and completely anal to another…

]]> By: Regime of images « Rule of Lords http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/comment-page-1/#comment-367521 Regime of images « Rule of Lords Fri, 29 Feb 2008 05:02:25 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/#comment-367521 [...] Andrew Walker, The return of the king, New [...] [...] Andrew Walker, The return of the king, New [...]

]]> By: Sidh S. http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/comment-page-1/#comment-367427 Sidh S. Fri, 29 Feb 2008 04:01:43 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/02/28/the-return-of-the-king/#comment-367427 Considering this "regime of images", in December before the elections, I expected PMThaksin's return to be a much grander affair, hundreds of thousands of supporters and live concerts - maybe even the whole triumphant Manchester City team with either the League Cup, FA Cup or a fourth spot in the Premiership. Circumstances seemed to have changed to make PMThaksin decide on an earlier return (MC's and PMSamak's performance, Yuth "the fridge" red card etc...etc...)... I won't dwell any more on that - but there is a cause to celebrate considering the court cases against PMThaksin will now progress (even if power and money may hold sway again at the end of the day, but as BangkokDan noted, the media and civil society will follow this very, very closely). On this occasion, it is about the "regime of images" as AW suggested. Of all past and present Thai politians, only PMThaksin actually mastered this "regime of images" on par with the world's best (American politics comes to mind as Srithanonchai noted). The buying of Manchester City FC alone makes for an excellent case study. I will give just one example of this - a few months ago, Sven-Goran Ericksson, MC's manager flew to Thailand to buy three promising Thai national footballers, which made headlines in the country. The question is where are they now? Last I heard they were farmed out to the Swiss league but may still not get to play (I have no doubt, if PMThaksin has his way, they'll feature in some matches - but he couldn't 'buy' English working permits)... Yesterday on PMThaksin's return to Thailand, he flew in with two MC players - goalkeeper Kasper Schmeichel and midfielder Kelvin Etuhu. Schmeichel has this to say: "He is a very genuine guy with very genuine feelings for the club. City lie very close to his heart and the way he has supported the club since he came in has proved that." The coup-makers and their constitution writers didn't seem to think that at all - and we have a constitution that is designed narrowly to clamp down on one man's demonstrated excesses. It is a less democratic constitution for a less democratic leader. Base on that analysis, I maintain that it is common wisdom that PMThaksin was expected to come back to politics all along... The fact that the party wasn't that big (at least as I have visualized it) already speaks volumes. Considering this “regime of images”, in December before the elections, I expected PMThaksin’s return to be a much grander affair, hundreds of thousands of supporters and live concerts – maybe even the whole triumphant Manchester City team with either the League Cup, FA Cup or a fourth spot in the Premiership. Circumstances seemed to have changed to make PMThaksin decide on an earlier return (MC’s and PMSamak’s performance, Yuth “the fridge” red card etc…etc…)… I won’t dwell any more on that – but there is a cause to celebrate considering the court cases against PMThaksin will now progress (even if power and money may hold sway again at the end of the day, but as BangkokDan noted, the media and civil society will follow this very, very closely). On this occasion, it is about the “regime of images” as AW suggested.

Of all past and present Thai politians, only PMThaksin actually mastered this “regime of images” on par with the world’s best (American politics comes to mind as Srithanonchai noted). The buying of Manchester City FC alone makes for an excellent case study. I will give just one example of this – a few months ago, Sven-Goran Ericksson, MC’s manager flew to Thailand to buy three promising Thai national footballers, which made headlines in the country. The question is where are they now? Last I heard they were farmed out to the Swiss league but may still not get to play (I have no doubt, if PMThaksin has his way, they’ll feature in some matches – but he couldn’t ‘buy’ English working permits)…

Yesterday on PMThaksin’s return to Thailand, he flew in with two MC players – goalkeeper Kasper Schmeichel and midfielder Kelvin Etuhu. Schmeichel has this to say:

“He is a very genuine guy with very genuine feelings for the club. City lie very close to his heart and the way he has supported the club since he came in has proved that.”

The coup-makers and their constitution writers didn’t seem to think that at all – and we have a constitution that is designed narrowly to clamp down on one man’s demonstrated excesses. It is a less democratic constitution for a less democratic leader. Base on that analysis, I maintain that it is common wisdom that PMThaksin was expected to come back to politics all along… The fact that the party wasn’t that big (at least as I have visualized it) already speaks volumes.

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