Comments on: Lèse majesté and the BBC http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/ New perspectives on mainland Southeast Asia Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:28:26 +1100 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: The lèse majesté plot thickens http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/comment-page-2/#comment-471427 The lèse majesté plot thickens Mon, 09 Jun 2008 13:14:10 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/#comment-471427 [...] this does happen from time-to-time it isn’t an everyday event.  So…why were they so [...] [...] this does happen from time-to-time it isn’t an everyday event.  So…why were they so [...]

]]> By: Frank G Anderson http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/comment-page-2/#comment-468195 Frank G Anderson Thu, 05 Jun 2008 04:03:01 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/#comment-468195 The current controversy over the PAD, pro and con, reminds me that Thailand's greatest divisiveness problem may not be in society itself but in opposition circles wherever they may be at any particular time. There is a great deal of calling to always conform or be harmonious, and that seems to get in the way of people, leaders and groups from committing to the basic issues and allowing others to have different views. The current controversy over the PAD, pro and con, reminds me that Thailand’s greatest divisiveness problem may not be in society itself but in opposition circles wherever they may be at any particular time. There is a great deal of calling to always conform or be harmonious, and that seems to get in the way of people, leaders and groups from committing to the basic issues and allowing others to have different views.

]]> By: Frank G Anderson http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/comment-page-2/#comment-468185 Frank G Anderson Thu, 05 Jun 2008 03:42:22 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/#comment-468185 Understood. Thanks. I tend to think big, and boycott to me meant a real boycott, organized and widespread. Matter of inference. Sorry. Understood. Thanks. I tend to think big, and boycott to me meant a real boycott, organized and widespread. Matter of inference. Sorry.

]]> By: Hobbit http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/comment-page-2/#comment-468121 Hobbit Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:58:54 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/#comment-468121 Frank - I am not naive enough to think that the sort of pseudo-exotic escape that Thailand offers combined with the ease of expense, is something the average punter will give up in order to make a political statement. I have loved the time have spent there. I was simply pointing out that dissuading even a few people can spread the awareness and the internet is the perfect tool for the job ... should someone feel so inclined. Frank – I am not naive enough to think that the sort of pseudo-exotic escape that Thailand offers combined with the ease of expense, is something the average punter will give up in order to make a political statement. I have loved the time have spent there. I was simply pointing out that dissuading even a few people can spread the awareness and the internet is the perfect tool for the job … should someone feel so inclined.

]]> By: Frank G Anderson http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/comment-page-2/#comment-467818 Frank G Anderson Wed, 04 Jun 2008 13:07:01 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/#comment-467818 I have listened to, watched and read what Jakrabhop said and it's not an unusual mix of vested interests and cloudy thinking with some absolute truth tossed in. He was very brave here in Thailand to say what he did, that is for certain. Having just come out of a conversation with a friend yesterday who was one of the senior drafters of the 2007 charter, I brought up the issue of the intent of the charter vis-a-vis the monarchy. In short, the reply was that the intent was not to change anything. In going further, I was told that while the concept of democracy involves free speech, that even open discussion of the role of the monarchy was itself likely to expose the king and monarchy to possible criticism. Thus open discussion is not going to be permitted. I brought up the contradiction between this and the king's own words that he wanted to hear criticism if he did something wrong, but got the "Yes, but..." reply. Loyal royalists here won't allow the lese majeste law even be reformed, much less revoked. However, there was also a private hint given by a Thai colleague that if HM passed away that no. 2 would not be accepted because of his lack of character and wrongful behavior. Just how the Thai people were going to make their displeasure known was not answered. As well, no. 2 is not known as a humanitarian in dealing with issues. I have listened to, watched and read what Jakrabhop said and it’s not an unusual mix of vested interests and cloudy thinking with some absolute truth tossed in. He was very brave here in Thailand to say what he did, that is for certain. Having just come out of a conversation with a friend yesterday who was one of the senior drafters of the 2007 charter, I brought up the issue of the intent of the charter vis-a-vis the monarchy. In short, the reply was that the intent was not to change anything. In going further, I was told that while the concept of democracy involves free speech, that even open discussion of the role of the monarchy was itself likely to expose the king and monarchy to possible criticism. Thus open discussion is not going to be permitted. I brought up the contradiction between this and the king’s own words that he wanted to hear criticism if he did something wrong, but got the “Yes, but…” reply.
Loyal royalists here won’t allow the lese majeste law even be reformed, much less revoked. However, there was also a private hint given by a Thai colleague that if HM passed away that no. 2 would not be accepted because of his lack of character and wrongful behavior. Just how the Thai people were going to make their displeasure known was not answered. As well, no. 2 is not known as a humanitarian in dealing with issues.

]]> By: Reg Varney http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/comment-page-2/#comment-467753 Reg Varney Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:24:53 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/#comment-467753 Larry: "Please read them all, most people agree that Jon and Jak are guilty." The point is that they shouldn't even be investigated under this law that stems from feudal mentalities. But even if there is such a law in place, no one with half a brain could possibly consider Jonathon guilty of anything like lese majeste. The charges publicised to date are simply crazy. For Jakrapob, as a nice story in the Nation a week or so ago pointed out, much worse was said in parliament about the king and monarchy a few decades ago. This is J's punishment for daring to speak out against a decrepit system (of which he is a part, of course). Larry: “Please read them all, most people agree that Jon and Jak are guilty.” The point is that they shouldn’t even be investigated under this law that stems from feudal mentalities. But even if there is such a law in place, no one with half a brain could possibly consider Jonathon guilty of anything like lese majeste. The charges publicised to date are simply crazy. For Jakrapob, as a nice story in the Nation a week or so ago pointed out, much worse was said in parliament about the king and monarchy a few decades ago. This is J’s punishment for daring to speak out against a decrepit system (of which he is a part, of course).

]]> By: Frank G Anderson http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/comment-page-2/#comment-466516 Frank G Anderson Mon, 02 Jun 2008 23:24:26 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/#comment-466516 Boycott? 3 June 2008 It's tough to set aside time to write when the USA campaign is going blazing hot! It's a tough call to ask for a boycott of Thailand, yet, the country's elite and selfish many have been asking for it for a long time. Human rights issues are first and foremost impetus for the idea of a boycott, but so is criminal complicity in the failure to warn those thousands in the south before the tsunami struck. I will forever regret Thai society, media and political leadership not going ahead with an investigation and public report of what really happened. Of course, the same thing goes for Khrue Sae, Takbai, and all those Octobers in the past that have left blood on the streets. Boycott?

3 June 2008

It’s tough to set aside time to write when the USA campaign is going blazing hot!

It’s a tough call to ask for a boycott of Thailand, yet, the country’s elite and selfish many have been asking for it for a long time. Human rights issues are first and foremost impetus for the idea of a boycott, but so is criminal complicity in the failure to warn those thousands in the south before the tsunami struck. I will forever regret Thai society, media and political leadership not going ahead with an investigation and public report of what really happened. Of course, the same thing goes for Khrue Sae, Takbai, and all those Octobers in the past that have left blood on the streets.

]]> By: Hobbit http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/comment-page-2/#comment-465594 Hobbit Sun, 01 Jun 2008 21:06:46 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/#comment-465594 Frank - thank you for taking the time to post here. The heart ache of this process is destructive and painful, even if, at the same time, it seems so ridiculous to onlookers. I can personally attest that this situation is extremely unpleasant for Jonathan and his whole family, both Thai and British alike. This pain is compounded by the seemingly random insults that many people seem compelled to post, as though being demeaning somehow strengthens their cause. Quite the opposite - it makes the insulters look petty and baseless in their accusations and methinks does little to promote respect for the very insitution they claim to be defending. The one comfort I take in this vendetta on the internet is that plenty can be done to spread this information on the internet not just for the detriment of the people targetted, but also to discourage people from going to Thailand and patronising a country that allows such injustice. The anonymity of the internet cuts both ways. Frank – thank you for taking the time to post here. The heart ache of this process is destructive and painful, even if, at the same time, it seems so ridiculous to onlookers.

I can personally attest that this situation is extremely unpleasant for Jonathan and his whole family, both Thai and British alike. This pain is compounded by the seemingly random insults that many people seem compelled to post, as though being demeaning somehow strengthens their cause. Quite the opposite – it makes the insulters look petty and baseless in their accusations and methinks does little to promote respect for the very insitution they claim to be defending.

The one comfort I take in this vendetta on the internet is that plenty can be done to spread this information on the internet not just for the detriment of the people targetted, but also to discourage people from going to Thailand and patronising a country that allows such injustice. The anonymity of the internet cuts both ways.

]]> By: Larry http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/comment-page-2/#comment-465428 Larry Sun, 01 Jun 2008 17:35:52 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/#comment-465428 Frank: I remember your case and you were innocent, a victim of street scum. These cases do seem to be very suspicious. Please read them all, most people agree that Jon and Jak are guilty Frank:

I remember your case and you were innocent, a victim of street scum. These cases do seem to be very suspicious. Please read them all, most people agree that Jon and Jak are guilty

]]> By: Frank G Anderson http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/comment-page-2/#comment-464367 Frank G Anderson Sat, 31 May 2008 08:50:55 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/04/09/lese-majeste-and-the-bbc/#comment-464367 31 May 2008 The Bangkok Post reported today that Col. Wattanasak filed a fresh lese majeste complaint against Jonathan Head of the BBC related to the FCCT panel discussion. Having been publicly accused myself of lese majeste by an overzealous monarchy-patronizing insincere and apparently half-insane Thai but not having had to undergo detailed investigation because there was no evidence (and charges were based on fraudulent claims), I can personally attest to the horrendously painful atmosphere that criminal lese majeste charges in Thailand can produce. People of ill-will, ignorant and indignant for perceived but unprovable in courts outside Thailand slights - but totally forgiving of their own religious and social irresponsibilities - seem to take glee in persecuting others using the monarchy as The Big Hammer. There is little desire on the part of these sanctimonious troublemakers to arrive at a just resolution of social misunderstanding (on their part), but only to punish and denounce. The lese majeste law is Thailand is really little other than a tool of the police to whip deviants, and is used with distasteful enforcement and punishment. Yes, there are those who are guilty of lese majeste, but why not get this tool out of the hands of the zealots and into the hands of the monarchy itself? Thai police are not to be entrusted with this serious breach of the human ethic. They are, like the rest of Thai society, often unethical, duplicitous, self-serving and ignorant of the negative human conditions they help perpetuate in the Land of Smiles. The level of sanctimony in Thailand is indeed nauseous, and sadly too often exposed in so-called defense of the revered monarchy. His Majesty himself has many times told the Thai people - who apparently are not listening closely enough - that they have double-standards and cause him headache and trouble by proceeding with lese majeste cases. Why not take a hint and revamp the procedure? It needs it. I have asked the Thai police to revamp it based on the following )and of course, have not received any reply): 7. In addition to the request for an investigation into criminal conspiracy and negligence leading to human rights abuses, I respectfully and humbly ask authorities to kindly review the process of filing lese majesty charges for possible reform as the process is conducted here in Thailand. It seems, for example, that it would be a significant ethical improvement in the process if those making charges of lese majesty were required to: 7.1. sign a sworn statement [affidavit] that the lese majesty accusation is true, accurate and fair to the best of their knowledge. 7.2. sign a separate statement/paragraph that they are aware of possible legal consequences (civil and/or criminal) should the charge be unsupported or determined to be false, etc. 7.3. sign a statement/paragraph that they have no personal motivations or prejudices against the person charged and that the lese majesty complaint is made on the basis of full ethical consideration toward all concerned. 7.4. That local police registering the complaint also sign a statement that they feel the charge is warranted to pass on to central authorities for prosecution, and that a copy of this statement, with supporting documents, is provided to the accused at the time of filing. 7.5. The person accused of lese majesty should also have an early opportunity to make a statement to police before they send the complaint to Bangkok. Although the lese majesty complaint is a unique and serious matter here in Thailand, it has often been abused by those with vested interests, unfair bias and even criminal motives. The police are in a unique position to determine this, and should provide everyone involved at the early stages with an opportunity to respond to the local charge before it becomes an official charge. I am, of course, interested in any comments. 31 May 2008

The Bangkok Post reported today that Col. Wattanasak filed a fresh lese majeste complaint against Jonathan Head of the BBC related to the FCCT panel discussion.
Having been publicly accused myself of lese majeste by an overzealous monarchy-patronizing insincere and apparently half-insane Thai but not having had to undergo detailed investigation because there was no evidence (and charges were based on fraudulent claims), I can personally attest to the horrendously painful atmosphere that criminal lese majeste charges in Thailand can produce. People of ill-will, ignorant and indignant for perceived but unprovable in courts outside Thailand slights – but totally forgiving of their own religious and social irresponsibilities – seem to take glee in persecuting others using the monarchy as The Big Hammer.
There is little desire on the part of these sanctimonious troublemakers to arrive at a just resolution of social misunderstanding (on their part), but only to punish and denounce. The lese majeste law is Thailand is really little other than a tool of the police to whip deviants, and is used with distasteful enforcement and punishment. Yes, there are those who are guilty of lese majeste, but why not get this tool out of the hands of the zealots and into the hands of the monarchy itself? Thai police are not to be entrusted with this serious breach of the human ethic. They are, like the rest of Thai society, often unethical, duplicitous, self-serving and ignorant of the negative human conditions they help perpetuate in the Land of Smiles.
The level of sanctimony in Thailand is indeed nauseous, and sadly too often exposed in so-called defense of the revered monarchy. His Majesty himself has many times told the Thai people – who apparently are not listening closely enough – that they have double-standards and cause him headache and trouble by proceeding with lese majeste cases. Why not take a hint and revamp the procedure? It needs it. I have asked the Thai police to revamp it based on the following )and of course, have not received any reply):

7. In addition to the request for an investigation into criminal conspiracy and negligence leading to human rights abuses, I respectfully and humbly ask authorities to kindly review the process of filing lese majesty charges for possible reform as the process is conducted here in Thailand. It seems, for example, that it would be a significant ethical improvement in the process if those making charges of lese majesty were required to:
7.1. sign a sworn statement [affidavit] that the lese majesty accusation is true, accurate and fair to the best of their knowledge.
7.2. sign a separate statement/paragraph that they are aware of possible legal consequences (civil and/or criminal) should the charge be unsupported or determined to be false, etc.
7.3. sign a statement/paragraph that they have no personal motivations or prejudices against the person charged and that the lese majesty complaint is made on the basis of full ethical consideration toward all concerned.
7.4. That local police registering the complaint also sign a statement that they feel the charge is warranted to pass on to central authorities for prosecution, and that a copy of this statement, with supporting documents, is provided to the accused at the time of filing.
7.5. The person accused of lese majesty should also have an early opportunity to make a statement to police before they send the complaint to Bangkok. Although the lese majesty complaint is a unique and serious matter here in Thailand, it has often been abused by those with vested interests, unfair bias and even criminal motives. The police are in a unique position to determine this, and should provide everyone involved at the early stages with an opportunity to respond to the local charge before it becomes an official charge.

I am, of course, interested in any comments.

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