It bodes ill for Thai democracy that a limited and narrow street-based movement has the upper hand in overthrowing an elected government.
- Thitinan Pongsudhirak quoted in ”Standoff”, Bangkok Post, 21 June 2008. I should add that if anyone finds an arguably better quote on the current stalemate in Bangkok please feel free to post it in the comments.
22 responses so far ↓
1 nganadeeleg // Jun 21, 2008 at 11:33 pm
On face value, your quote sounds good, but don’t forget why they are protesting, and would they be protesting if the government had acted differently?
As for quotes, I’ve got a couple for starters:
“Be patient with the headache-inducing situation until July 2,” Thaksin told reporters Monday. “Mars moving close to Saturn causes the headache. When Mars leaves, the situation will ease.”
and
The general admitted Mr Thaksin wanted to invest in joint natural gas development, but said that the project required further talks.
”I insist we’ve never talked about a trade-off between Preah Vihear and natural gas with Mr Thaksin,” Gen Teah Banh said. ”How could we make such an agreement?”
2 jonfernquest // Jun 22, 2008 at 2:13 am
Ngana Daen: “On face value, your quote sounds good, but don’t forget why they are protesting, and would they be protesting if the government had acted differently?”
Yep, they are preventing designer constitutions tailored to certain business interests. They cannot not protest. Furthermore, the protesters are part of a delicate equilibrium between Samak, the military, Thaksin, the Democrat opposition, members of the PPP, so His Majesty the King’s words seem to favour no one but encourage Samak, a little ambiguous so as not to favour anyone, neutral, the most important thing: non-violence [Pali: ahimsa], or at least that’s the way I read it. These are not the violent riots you normally see on TV in other countries.
3 fall // Jun 22, 2008 at 2:35 am
After 2006 PAD protest, those who go up the stage compete under Democrat banner and many won an MP. But after government coalition form without Democrat. Those people took off their (MP) jacket and put on so-called “people’s democracy” and go up stage again. That is not democracy.
- translate and reword from government deputy spokeman, TV interview.
4 A Headline From "Not the Nation" // Jun 22, 2008 at 4:23 am
A headline (and subheadline) from “Not the Nation”
People’s Alliance for Democracy Protests Against People, Alliances, and Democracy
Anti-Thaksin, pro-coup group demands mob rule, election nullification, and legislation by unelected elites
http://www.notthenation.com/pages/news/getnews.php?id=518
5 jonfernquest // Jun 22, 2008 at 3:27 pm
fall: “But after government coalition form without Democrat. Those people took off their (MP) jacket and put on so-called “people’s democracy” and go up stage again. That is not democracy.”
Well, not going to debate with you what exactly democracy is, since there is only a family of interrelated definitions, or what a constitution is, but one thing is clear, both have checks and balances, both can be manipulated by big money business interests, and both are extremely overdetermined concepts.
I guess, one can abandon oneself to the definitions of western intellectuals like, Clark medal winner economist Acemoglu, but as everyone knows, Thailand and Thais have never been colonized by the west, either politically or intellectually. Good on them.
6 jonfernquest // Jun 22, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Well, can’t even post with links removed from posting.
Must not be the spam filter that is preventing posting.
Perhaps some secret government blog blocker psych-war weapon.
7 jonfernquest // Jun 22, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Utter amazement.
Last posting actual made it to New Mandala.
Actual posting intercepted somewhere in cyberspace.
8 Reg Varney // Jun 22, 2008 at 8:06 pm
It is clear what the PAD wants – they are the chosen tools of those who were disappointed by the December election result. The military, palace and other assorted conservatives opposed to Thaksin/Samak/TRT/PPP thought the Dems could win the election. They didn’t and they can’t accept the result. So they are overturning it. Forget the buddhist nonsense for this is power politics plain and simple.
9 Nicholas Farrelly // Jun 22, 2008 at 8:48 pm
Sorry Jon,
The sometimes temperamental NM spam filter has, in the past day, been doing lots of work. As you know, it is sometimes over-zealous. Please accept our apologies for this inconvenience. I have now found and posted all of your comments. If anyone else is in the same position please don’t hesitate to let me know.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
10 fall // Jun 22, 2008 at 11:07 pm
Jon: both have checks and balances, both can be manipulated by big money business interests, and both are extremely overdetermined concepts
Well, it would be nice to have TV show debate the definition of democracy according to PPP vs PAD version. They could try, but I doubt there would be a definite resolution.
IMO, democracy is overrated. It is basically a majority mandate on electing a leader. And hopefully the joker would do half a good job as promise.
“It had been said that Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time”
The PAD view PPP as using democracy pretext for a mean to an end, which is rural majority mandate to totalitarian rule.
But there had been little discussion about the PAD itself and what mean or end it would lead to. IMO, it seem like the PAD advocate to urban elite minority mandate to totalitarian rule itself. That has even less to do with general definition of democray, but more like a new sakdina or oligarchy.
11 goodbye Thailand // Jun 23, 2008 at 1:19 am
High caste, Its suck, they ‘ere support this mob by collaborate with democrat party, Thai people have known better that Gen.Prem ’s behind the scene, he ’s just revenge Samak who was baste him on stage every time during the campaign for general election last year.
all political party of Gen.Prem lose out, his plan absolutely failed, so he used PAD to press the outside and used Democrat party and feudal servant senator to press inside.
12 jonfernquest // Jun 23, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Reg Varney: “They didn’t and they can’t accept the result. So they are overturning it. Forget the buddhist nonsense for this is power politics plain and simple.”
No one referred to Buddhism at all. Why gratuitously insult the religion like this?
“Power politics” is simply redundant. The definition of politics is “actions or activities concerned with achieving and using power in a country or society.”
As for power, the TRT tried to suck all power in the land into a single gigantic political vacuum bag, disregarding the fact that there are other important interest groups in the country. That was a mistake.
Democracy is a good thing, the western religion of democracy as demonstrated here, that doesn’t recognise that there are other important political and economic interests and parts of a country that are essential to its proper functioning, that are not reflected in sheer vote numbers, will always find itself subject to developments like this, Anek Laothamatas’s “Tale of two constitutions.”
That rural farmers have a voice is important, that they have a voice that drowns out everything else obviously leads to problems, as we’ve seen, whether you call it democracy or not. It results in incompetent governments, the bullying of the free media, the legal system, etc. The essentialism that tries to reduce everything to one cause, for instance, one person Prem thwarting Democracy, is just ridiculous and laughable. Street protests can “bode ill for Thai democracy” and still be absolutely essential. The leaders of the protests can be monomaniac losers, while still be heroes performing an essential task.
Perfectly reasonable people like Supachai found the coup to be a blessing, despite (or perhaps because of) western warnings that this was not acceptable behaviour:
http://www.readbangkokpost.com/business/shin_sale_and_coup/supachai_on_the_economic_bless.php
13 Reg Varney // Jun 24, 2008 at 12:46 am
jonfernquest: I seldom agree with much of the stuff you write, often because it is underlain by a self-proclaimed buddhism that I find pathetic and sometimes pedantic. I should observe that I am happy to be accused of insulting (gratuitously or any other way) the religion (or any religion) – so I am 2-0 at the moment having also insulted the monarchy on NM. I don’t claim any expertise in any religion, so I will depart this line to find a point of agreement.
I don’t think these PAD leaders are monomaniacs; they have more than one obssession. However, I do agree that they are performing an essential task. I certainly don’t agree that these “maniacs” can be heroes (unless you see their task as getting rid of another government that was elected only a few months ago).
BTW, “power politics” is a term that is well used by political scientists. It is very often related to international relations, but is usually used to refer to desire and action to protect one’s own interests (especially by elites) by threatening others with aggression that may be military, economic or political. Power politics implies that it is in someone’s interests to be able to harm others. It also implies the strength of self-interest over other interests.
14 jonfernquest // Jun 25, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Reg Varney: “I certainly don’t agree that these “maniacs” can be heroes (unless you see their task as getting rid of another government that was elected only a few months ago).”
There you go again. Ritual oblations to the democracy god. If the democracy god gets elected and then systematically pushes around everyone until they join his religion, making him richest man on earth, people will oppose democracy god by whatever means necessary. Good on them.
When will you ever stop echoing the word “democracy” (like a hairy chimpanzee at a zoo) and take a good critical look at what’s inside it, when it is put in practice. Then I will clap and feed you a peanut.
15 Reg Varney // Jun 25, 2008 at 4:34 pm
jonfernquest: Before you dole out peanuts find the spectacles you use for reading. Where was the word “democracy” used? I do see the word “election” but even the PADites don’t associate that with “democracy”. Their use of “democracy” in their name apparently refers to a Thai-style democracy (which does have the support of god-like figures). On PAD definitions of democracy see Bangkok Pundit: PAD Advocating Sufficiency Democracy
Posted by Bangkok Pundit | 6/23/2008 10:34:00 PM
“It is certainly no surprise that they are a fan of Thai-style democracy or sufficiency democracy, but it is not often you get details of what they want. Suriyasai Katasila is quoted in Thai Rath as suggesting a new way of “electing” MPs with 30% being elected and 70% being selected/chosen (การจัดให้มีการเลือกตั้งสมาชิกสภาผู้แทนราษฎร (ส.ส.) 30% และคัดสรรจากภาคส่วนต่างๆ อีก 70%). He says this is because the parliament cannot solve political problems.”
Can’t get the Thai Rath story to open via the web to confirm BP’s story, but it certainly sounds like Suriyasai’s general approach (remember he comes from the Confederation for Democracy). Oops, there’s that word again.
Finally, I can’t help but ask: when was the last time you heard a chimp, hairy or otherwise, speaking in a zoo? Saying anything at all, let alone about democracy? Maybe you are hanging around with the wrong crowd if you are hearing chimps speak?
16 Bangkok Pundit // Jun 26, 2008 at 6:06 am
Reg: Kapook has the Thai Rath article.
17 Reg Varney // Jun 26, 2008 at 11:52 am
Great, thanks. Got it now. Fabulous stuff. Good to see that the meaning of “Thai-style democracy” has changed only ever so little since Sarit’s time. The transformation of opportunistic social movements (if that term applies to CPD) through their collaboration with royalists and other conservatives has been remarkable.
18 jonfernquest // Jun 26, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Reg Varney: “Where was the word “democracy” used? I do see the word election…”
O no, now you’re nitpicking with words, does “election” mean “democracy” ?
Well, Reg, I’ll let you think about that, take the whole day, if you want…
Meanwhile, in the real world, last night, the minute Korn (a securities industry expert) brought up dismissal of the DSI person handling the Thaksin asssets concealment case, PPP starting running massive interference trying to delay the whole thing to the TV cutoff time, so no one could see it, wonder who they are working for?
Let the electorate decide, let the electorate decide,…the electorate is only part of the constitution, there are also laws, the judiciary, the SEC, all of which have been systematically thwarted and underminded…
Instead of wasting a whole day trying to decide whether “election” means “democracy” I’d go read the article on the telecommunications industry in Pasuk and Baker’s recent Thai Capital volume, try using your time more productively…
And then while you’re at, just to introduce a nice healthy note of skepticism on that oft repeated phrase, “let the electorate decide,” read a nice biography of Mussolini, a democratically elected king displacer, who concentrated all power in his own person, who even had his own gang of loyalists named the black shirts (the opposite of yellow shirts) running around Italy, not unlike the extrajudicial use of power favoured by Thaksin…
19 Reg Varney // Jun 26, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Thanks jonfernquest for your remarkable response. How you tie yourself in knots.
If you are following the PAD stuff you’d know that they have long claimed that electoral mandates don’t matter if “the people” are enraged or unhappy in some way. So I am not nitpicking. I was simply assuming that you did not equate elections and democracy (so why accuse me of that sin?).
I must be assessing your position correctly – despite its rather confused argument – for if you did equate elections with democracy, then you would want to have TRT/PPP in place as the elected government. Instead, the gist of your argument about Mussolini is that elections and/or democracy don’t work. Scrap the lot. That’s even more radical than Suriyasai!
My knowledge of Italian politics is rather patchy. However I do know that Mussolini was elected in 1921 but that the Fascists came to power by way of the March on Rome, essentially a coup. As Wikipedia has it: “The March on Rome was a coup d’état by which Mussolini’s National Fascist Party came to power in Italy and ousted Prime Minister Luigi Facta. The ‘march’ took place in 1922 between October 27 and October 29. On October 28, King Victor Emmanuel III refused his support to Facta and handed over power to Mussolini. Mussolini was supported by the military, the business class, and the liberal right-wing.” Sound familiar.
I have read the recent Pasuk and Baker book (and all of their others) and found it fascinating. I am currently reading Ockey’s book which has an argument that political participation (not sure if you’d see that as equated with democracy) is intrinsic to Thai political structures, especially at the village level, and that this politics has been suppressed by the elite. Interesting reading.
I have no comment on the part of the debate you mention as I didn’t see it, but I have no problem agreeing that corrupt politicians /former politicians shouldn’t be protected from a transparent legal process.
What about the chimps you converse with? Any word from them on these weighty matters?
20 nganadeeleg // Jul 1, 2008 at 4:30 pm
An oldie, but a goodie (by guess who?):
Quite simply rural people accept payments from everyone and vote for whoever they wish. This is a complex sociological issue, but my feeling is that these payments should be seen as a demonstration of the ability of candidates to direct resources to the villages within their electorate. This is what rural people quite properly expect of their parliamentary representatives and distribution of funds prior to an election is a widely accepted way of demonstrating this willingness and capability.
Classic!
21 karmablues // Jul 4, 2008 at 12:20 am
so it is apparent from nganadeeleg’s quote at #20 that he too has been conversing with chimps on weighty mattters
22 macca // Jan 23, 2009 at 3:31 am
I realize this thread is more or less dead, but amid all the gloom surrounding thai politics lately, I felt like making a contribution with little cheering up factor.
And what better then, than fresh quote from everybodys favourite, be it love-to-hate or love-to-love, Thai politician:
Noji Shibata : Do you regret your decision to become politician?
Thaksin Shinawatra: Yes, certainly I do. Maybe I am being punished for something I did in my former life…You see, I lost my money and assets. Politics is a job which must be handled by “Doraemon” not by “Nobita”…
/end quote
I wonder if when he refers to himself as Japans anime ambassador, immensely popular also in Thailand, he realizes how apt the comparison actually is.
I mean, those familiar with Doraemon should know that even though Nobita is the major screwup in the series, Doraemons futuristic gadgets always end up putting him in far worse situations.
Improving Nobitas future turns out to be a task no abundant little Catsin can handle.
In one of the rumored season finales of the series, as revealed by the creator, Doraemons battery power runs out leaving Nobita ‘out of robot’.
Nobita then chooses to study hard and eventually becomes a professor in robotics. He resurrects Thaksin, sorry Doraemon, and lives happily ever after.
The lesson? Doraemons eye catching gadgets was never what Nobita needed to success in life.
He needed to learn and appreciate the true value of friendship, putting others before himself, of honest work. Something like that…
Also from the same news article (see “the nation” article linked below), we learn that Thaksin is running low on dough. He can only afford the suite at one of the lesser 5-star hotels in Dubai, AND he had to sell his premier league football team .
Some people really have it rough..
Interview with Thaksin published in Asahi Newspaper on January 17, 2009
I got it from a secondary source though:
Excerpts of the interview in The Nation, Thu jan 22nd
“With less money, Thaksin lives a costly life abroad.”
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/01/22/politics/politics_30093933.php
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