From The Nation:
As far as the media were concerned, Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej and Foreign Minister Noppadon Pattama were “defeated” in first day of the censure debate in the House of Representatives. Headlines in almost all local newspapers backed the opposition Democrat Party saying Samak and Noppadon had lost the battle. The Democrat Party, like butchers, had chopped up the nominee government in Parliament, they said. … Many newspapers devoted the majority of their space in yesterday’s editions to the speeches and information provided by the speakers from the opposition. It is widely know that Samak’s government has no ability to communicate with the public, nor any ability to shape public opinion. Both Samak and his foreign minister Noppadon were seen in a negative light because of their connection to former Prime Minister Thaksin. The public realised long ago they were doing everything to favour Thaksin. … Prime Minister Samak himself is a media unfriendly figure. He never offers sweet words.
The electorate, it seems, is well informed about the faults of Samak and his government. There is vigorous debate in parliament and enthusiastic media coverage.
So why not let the electorate decide?
17 responses so far ↓
1 nganadeeleg // Jun 26, 2008 at 11:29 am
So why not let the electorate decide?
see what I just posted in the ‘Leave the PA(S)D’ alone thread.
People like Samak should be unelectable (especially after his Burma, Tak Bai & 1976 comments).
I know, Samak is not the only one who has a smell around him, but please ask yourself: Is that as good as it gets?
2 Reg Varney // Jun 26, 2008 at 1:10 pm
I think the Nation is wrong and is just in campaign mode (as is the Bangkok POst at present, and looking increasingly like the rabid Nation). Thai Rath has given pretty good coverage of things like Preah Viharan (and their circulation dwarfs Nation). The debates have been on TV.
nganadeeleg: Hopefully Samak is not the best available. However, his comments on these things do not necessarily make him unelectable any more than Aphisit’s untruths and rabid nationalism make him unelectable.
Leaving aside that the electorate has now voted for TRT/PPP to be the government 3 (or 4) times, we need to acknowledge that a whole swathe of potentially good politicians have been neutered by the banning of TRT (and I don’t mean the whole 111).
Related to your other post (on the Peoples Alliance Against Democracy), for the legal system to work properly it needs to be reformed. How is that going to happen? When the military was in power they managed the courts in a way that leaves many seeing them as compromised. The vicious circle needs to be broken somewhere, and my bet would be that that will only happen under an elected government that has a decent opposition in place, keeping tabs on it, raising scandalous issues etc.
What we have now is a long way from that. It is a (crappy) government unable to operate because of continual opposition from those who never accepted the election result. In parliament the Democrats are just PADised in their debate. Where are the Dems showing any independence and capacity? It is a circus.
3 dukdeek yoakyeg // Jun 26, 2008 at 1:47 pm
The only hope is for Thailand to become a new state or a protectorate of the United States and to let Americans run the country. In one generation those existing crooked politicians of all parties will disappear so that Thailand can start fresh. If you don’t like this, what alternative have you got? I see none viable.
4 nganadeeleg // Jun 26, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Reg (on the buses?) Varney: When the military was in power they managed the courts in a way that leaves many seeing them as compromised.
Which military in power are you referring to?
Presumably not the 2006 coup mob, because the compromise was on well before they came to power.
It is a circus
I will agree with you on that point.
btw, did you read today’s editorial in the Bangkok Post about Preah Vihear?
Do you accept they made some reasonable points about the issue, or do you just put it down to them being in campaign mode?
5 Somsak Jeamteerasakul // Jun 26, 2008 at 2:17 pm
People like Samak should be unelectable (especially after his Burma, Tak Bai & 1976 comments).
I know, Samak is not the only one who has a smell around him, but please ask yourself: Is that as good as it gets?
“Some people” who supported the bloody Sarit regime, and acted (not just “comments”) on October 6, 1976 should not have been in high position, etc., but should have been put on trial and suffered long jail terms.
Any one who can “smell” only Samak must have severe nasal disorder. In fact the person should have his brain checked.
6 Sidh S. // Jun 26, 2008 at 3:11 pm
I agree Andrew and the electorate will get to decide if there’s no coup and bloodshed – but we also have to give credit where credit is due. HOW DID WE GET TO THIS CENSURE DEBATE?
If the ultra-assertive PAD weren’t protesting/pressuring, on the whole, peacefully – it is highly likely that PPP, like TRT before it, will do anything to avoid and/or disrupt censure debates (remember PMThaksin’s Liverpool buying saga blanketing all media reporting of a censure debate???). You know as well as I do that “democracy” does not end at the ballot box. A working democracy has functioning, effective and transparent checks and balances. I am sure you and I have watched ‘Question Time’ on ABC occasionally – or ABC newsmen/women putting the hard questions to prime ministers and ministers of the day on TV. Do you see that kind of accountability in TRT/PPP? Has PMThaksin or PMSamak really faced that kind of grilling by the Opposition/media that is allowed to properly function? If you endorse ‘Mercedes-Benz S-Class’ quality democracy for Australia, then I expect you to maintain the same standard for Thailand (unless you also endorse PMThaksin’s “double standards”) – and not an outdated ‘Ford Model T’ democracy you seem to be prescribing. It seems quite disingenous otherwise.
If you do not accept a Labour government backbencher threatening a pub-worker with “DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?” line, then your blogs should also be calling for Chalerm’s resignation right away… Stop throwing the words democracy, election, checks-and-balances, accountability around so lightly. Start demanding accountability and transparency of Thai politicians as you would Australians. Demand, in your blogs, that the poor Thais, urban and rural alike, get a democracy worth defending too.
7 Sidh S. // Jun 26, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Reg Varney, I have proposed that one of the best way to get to some semblance to a rule of law for the country is to have all alleged corruption cases against PMThaksin, Thailand’s most powerful man – in terms of both wealth and political capital, be transparently tried in court.
A reason for PAD’s latest round of civic-assertiveness on Bangkok’s streets is PPP’s proposed constitution amendment that will, amongst other things, white-wash PMThaksin’s cases. If PMThaksin feels ‘100% innocent’ as he claims, then let the cases be tried in court without fear or favour and political and other interferences. Apart from PPP’s constitution amendments, the latest actions by his team of lawyers, if true, seems to further confirm my previous points that there are solid evidences to convict PMThaksin and family…
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/06/26/headlines/headlines_30076552.php
“Thana had argued in his earlier testimony that it was a mistake, as his driver got the wrong box for him to deliver to the court official.
The “wrong” box contained money intended for a land purchase, while Thana’s wife was said to have filled another bag with chocolate candy.”
The news also made Thairath’s headlines:
http://www.thairath.co.th/offline.php?section=hotnews&content=94831
ตัดสินขนม 2 ล้าน คุก 6 เดือน หน.ทนายทักษิณ [26 มิ.ย. 51 - 03:53]
I am a bit skeptical myself that one of the world’s smartest man like PMThaksin can fall on such crude bribe cases. Is this a man desperate and cornered? Is this also related to his appearance at GenAnupong’s Mother’s funeral to intentionally meet PMPrem and PMSurayud? Is this also because PMSamak is too independent and out of control???
Is he running out of money and needs the unfrozen of the billions in assets to contine the battle (to fund another election campaign?)? Can the courts be bribed with billions instead of two million? Is the money needed to buy Ronaldinho for ManCity? Is it needed for a big investment on Kong Island in Cambodia, said to be behind the smooth agreement between the Thai and Cambodian government concerning Khao PraVihear?
Sorry, it’s just my curiousities (and wild speculations, admittedly) – and maybe Thailand’s immediate political future hangs in a few of these questions…
8 nganadeeleg // Jun 26, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Somsak J: “Any one who can “smell” only Samak must have severe nasal disorder. In fact the person should have his brain checked”
I said: “I know, Samak is not the only one who has a smell around him, but please ask yourself: Is that as good as it gets?”
Just clarifying that my nose is in order.
9 Reg Varney // Jun 26, 2008 at 7:40 pm
nganadeeleg: Yep, saw the BP editorial. Liked the Sanitsuda piece much better.
10 Reg Varney // Jun 26, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Sidh: Why just Thaksin? There are any number of cases that could be taken up. Sure, get Thaksin in a transparent process, but get others as well.
Maybe those responsible for political murder in various horrible events (1973, 1976, the war on drugs, etc.). Maybe former ISOC man Panlop (who admits to murder and had a major role at Kru Ze and is now a PADite).
But as nganadeeleg points out, the courts are not exactly squeaky clean and haven’t been for a long time (and the 2006 coup group added considerably to this). And, the connections between all the nodes of the elite are so extensive that the big cases often fall by the wayside because they threaten to bring down too many others.
11 Sidh S. // Jun 28, 2008 at 12:17 am
Reg Varney, once PMThaksin is convicted, many others in the elite (his family, colleagues, senior bureaucrats, police and soldiers etc…etc… of many shades and orientations) will come down with him (one sad thing is that many are just caught up in the corruption net, being not brave enough to disagree with orders from up high). PMThaksin will make sure of that (at least those that involve his former allies, present enemies)… That is if ALL CASES investigated reaches the courts – if only a selection makes it, then some people are being left off the hook. Fans of PMThaksin should cry foul then… This may be a huge corruption purge that will set Thailand on a new track – a vibrant rule-of-law which underpins a rejuvenated democracy… It is a big IF though…
12 Reg Varney // Jun 28, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Sidh: Oh, I get it now, only those associated with Thaksin were responsible for 1973, 1976, 1992.
13 Sidh S. // Jun 30, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Reg Varney, let’s deal with the present injustices first, where evidences still abound, when witnesses are still alive and their memories are still sharp. Taking these critical steps may lead to a higher possibility that past injustices will be addressed at a societal level… Do you think it is possible that Thai, or any society for that matter, can come together and say let’s deal with all past injustices first and present injustices will take care of itself?
14 Reg Varney // Jun 30, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Sidh: You commit a grave injustice and to those associated with the events of 1973, 1976 and 1992, and especially those families who suffered terrible losses. On your question – yes, I do.
15 Sidh S. // Jul 1, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Ah, quick to convict Reg! Injustices are injustices, Reg, no debates there. Your answer to my question is “yes” – then I ask you “How”?History tells us that some take longer to be addressed than others, many are not and with many often not addressed within the victims and/or perpetrators lifetime. Take the injustices suffered by the Stolen Generation of the indigenous population in Australia, committed mainly through the first half of last century (if I am not wrong). Australian society has finally built up enough ‘consensus’, evolved enough to say “sorry” (if it can be called a consensus, as I know many Australians who disagreed with PMRudd). However, most of the victims and perpetrators have long passed away.
In that regards, my point is only grounded in the realities of the present. If Thai society (elites and general populace; urban and rural etc.) are not disturbed enough, do not see grave injustices at Krue-se, Takbai, Sabai Yoi etc…etc… to prosecute the perpetrators, most of whom are still living and in positions of power, then there’s little chance that the cases of 1973, 1976 and 1992 gets its time in the courts (at least, it has been symbolically marked with monuments on Bangkok’s Ratchadamnoen Avenue, tied closest to Thailand’s political evolution). At the grassroots level, if murderers of activists in the rural area such as KhunCharoen Wataksorn are not caught and convicted as yet – and no one in the present elite (of any political color – and most of the general population) are not calling for blood – what are the chances, Reg?
If the present don’t have the tools to convict present injustice, we don’t have any to address the past. Thai society needs to build up a strong culture of the rule-of-law that is tied closely with respect for basic human rights. We need a truly independent, pro-active judiciary branch – and, right now, they have the opportunity (with society watching, and learning it is hoped) to cut their teeth against the most powerful person in Thailand, PMThaksin and his cronies. These cases, if carried out transparently will set Thai society, democracy into new directions and also go a long way to build up those ‘tools’ to address past injustices.
16 Reg Varney // Jul 1, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Sidh: “Do you think it is possible that Thai, or any society for that matter, can come together and say let’s deal with all past injustices first and present injustices will take care of itself?” I didn’t answer your question correctly. I didn’t mean to imply that present or recent injustices should be ignored. I was answering that I do think societies can deal with past injustices. Examples can include places like Northern Ireland, some parts of the US South and South Africa. So in the general sense, my answer remains yes.
By the way, the stolen generations injustices were a part of a longer process of reconciliation that began, I would argue, in the early 1970s.
My comment about your “injustice” was heartfelt. The memories of people involved in these tragedies is sharp as well and their voices deserve to be heard.
As to whether Thailand can deal with past injustices, I have serious doubts. But I also doubt that dealing just with Thaksin will make a difference to the generalized culture of lack of accountability for injustice.
17 Time to go home // Jul 7, 2008 at 8:55 am
[...] a vigorous no-confidence debate in parliament, during which the opposition was said to have “chopped up” Samak and his cabinet colleagues. On the back of the PA(S)D protests the media have been [...]
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