Thaksin and leaders before Thaksin had clearly employed Panlop’s deadly talents that allowed this mad dog to remain untouchable.

Who knows? . . . Perhaps when Thaksin’s judicial trial begins, Thaksin Shinawatra himself will ’sing’ about Panlop and many others and they would all go down together.

Nothing extenuates Thaksin’s transgressions against his Thai people . . . nothing! That Thaksin helped millions of Thai villagers with his populist policies is true. But it is also unconscionable and unpardonable that Thaksin’s politics was maliciously divisive and deeply corruptive.

It is difficult to ‘respect’ any political system with a Thaksin Shinawatra (or a Marcos or Mugabe, et al) leading, directing, and eroding Thai judicial institutions and checks & balances. That perhaps explain, but not excuse, the flowers and the garlands that was Bangkok’s gleeful Thai welcome to General Sonthi’s tanks.

It is moronic for Colum G (#71) to chide a Thai with his puerile “The constitution should have the same level of respect that you would have for your child (because that’s whose should inherit it), not a hard drive that an elite formats when things aren’t working.” Colum G should have directed his elementary lesson about the Thai constitution to a certain Thaksin Shinawatra and his gang of TRT bullies.

“Dramatic semantics” I will take as a compliment. And ‘you think’ Nick N was talking about ‘inconsistent justice’ – - – so what? You think Thaksin’s injudicious extra-consitutional police killings were ‘consistent’? Educate me man . . . educate me!

for your first response, you could just as easily be talking about the privy council. Therefore, you only highlight that there are many instances of injustice in Thailand, Thaksin being one.

for your second response – I should have made REAL italicized. You are one person of many saying that Thaksin corrupted Thai democracy. That you refuse to acknowledge anyone other than Thaksin and the TRT as responsible for corrupting Thai democracy only serves to lessen your appreciation of a -real- democracy.

Thailand hasn’t given democracy a chance to flourish because the system is not respected by you, one citizen of many. Go on say “but Thaksin didn’t respect the system” again!! Why weren’t you better than Thaksin by preventing a coup out of your respect for the system? You -one citizen- of many, are accountable. You cannot argue that getting rid of one constitution and replacing it with another is respectful. It would be tantamount to saying “I drowned our child in the bath peacefully because it had been corrupted! Now a year later, we have a new updated model.” The constitution should have the same level of respect that you would have for your child (because that’s whose should inherit it), not a hard drive that an elite formats when things aren’t working.

for your third point, if supporting a democratic system means to you that I am a Thaksin, TRT or PPP supporter, then theres nothing I can say.

You said:

“And it was certainly looking very bright for the country after the passage of the 1997 Constitution until he came along (and , to be fair, he was great in his first 1-2 years ofcourse, DREAM TEAM cabinet line up, great policies, quick action etc.).”

Well, that is a question of perception. While things in the city indeed started to look nicer soon after the crises, the situation in the villages deteriorated badly.
Many villagers position would be: ‘First came the financial crises, and we lost all our jobs in the city, and had hardly no income at all back in the village, and then came the Democrats along, and did nothing for us.’
Don’t you remember the arrogance many urban dwellers who stated that they were hit much harder by the crises because they can’t keep up with their payments for their cars while villagers supposedly could always go to the village, plant rice and scavenge for food? What a incredible misconception of these people’s lifes, in line with the later idea that SE would be accepted by those villagers (Andrew’s research has clearly proven the opposite).

Basically, after the ‘97 crises the drugs have taken such a firm hold in many villages that in several i am aware off you could not find anybody below the age of 40 who was not a regular user. For many of those villagers Thaksin was and still is a hero – he stopped drugs, he introduced the first universal healthcare scheme (and didn’t just talk about it), and he initiated micro loan schemes that enabled those people to take loans with comparatively low interest.

I personally did not like Thaksin, not during the first one or two years, as many civil liberties were taken away. I was shocked when after the second year it came to the drug war killings.
After the second election i felt that things started to normalize again somewhat, no more gross human rights violations. I was sort of happy first when Sonthi Limthongkul started his TV shows from Thammasat, but only until i heard his first speeches, and i was revolted by the extreme nationalism.
Only then, with the formation of the PAD did i realize that Thaksin’s most outspoken critics were far more anti-democratic than TRT. It has been a learning curve for me.
It’s not that i like Thaksin, but i dislike his most noisy opponents even more. I nowadays view Thaksin as a precursor to democracy and a more egalitarian system, in the way that sometime after Thaksin, if he would not have been ousted by a coup, people one day would have voted him out of office as soon as another party would have been a viable option.

Right now i see a step back into the weak governments of the 90’s, maybe even into premocracy, if PAD gets their way. Or even worse – a possibility of descending into the political and social instabilities of the 70’s, yet on a larger scale with more social sectors involved.

I am sorry, i do not share your optimism. I think it will take a long time before Thailand gets back to political and social stability. Why is the PAD still out there sprouting extreme nationalism, and their infantile “new politics”?
Thaksin has left the house, and there are far more immediate problems to take care of. A weakening economy, huge price rise of basic necessities, and a police force whose most capable officers are bound up in observing these demonstrations, while drugs are making a huge comeback, and these officers would be desperately needed to fight that.
And doing that they have to listen to the worst insults slung at them from the PAD stage, while the equally corrupt military is praised by the PAD. They have to watch and can’t do anything while the PAD is parading with metal bars, golf clubs, baseball bats and slingshots.

Have you any idea how many police officers from all over town are busy round the clock with especially the PAD demonstrations, and to a smaller part with the counter demonstrations – officers who would be needed to fight drugs and the rise in crime?

I basically agree, except I’m not so sure about the “nobody here disputes that” bit.
I think the emphasis should be placed on pushing for them all to have their day in court (instead of defending Thaksin just because others are untouched)

If the people who make up the TRT valued democratic systems of governance, they would have had no need to sabotage checks and balances, done away with the rule of law, abuse people’s human rights on large scale, suppress freedom of expression, and steal excessively from the people…. they would not have screwed up the whole system in this manner.

Who are you to say there wasn’t real democracy in Thailand under Thaksin? One citizen?
No. Many people said it.

This time the tanks won’t be rolling in? Why not?
ok, maybe they will roll in, if Thaksin camp do another Udon-style brutal attack on the protesters. I forgot, we can never underestimate the Thaksin camp. Sorry.

If Thaksin is your devil, stop telling everyone else so he’s theirs too.

Yes, I’ve described a lot of Thaksin wrong-doings. I’ve quoted Human Rights Watch’s condemnation of him as a “serious human rights abuser” who should be put on trial, and views of respectable scholars such as Baker, Pasuk and Connors on his dismantling of democracy. But I do find it surprising that you would from all this come to the conclusion of “devil”. My own guess is that most would say, “Gosh. What a horrible person. Hope he goes to jail like the rest of the other criminals.” or perhaps some may say, “Thailand surely deserves better than this!” But, that you – a seemingly keen Thaksin supporter – would conclude “devil” after hearing about his wrong-doings is rather surprisingly if I may say.

The most severe violation that happened under Thaksin were in my opinion the drug war killings. Yet, the investigation under the military government came to the conclusion that there is no direct link provable between the orders to kill thousands of people and Thaksin. Which is a very convenient result.
I have in several posts here argued that the drug war killings were only possible because of the active collaboration between all different power networks in Thailand, both formal and informal – military, police, civil service, politics and palace – as has been tradition in Thailand whenever a real or perceived threat to society arises and won’t disappear by itself (there are several historical precedents).

I have already quoted once a key speech commenting on the drug war killings specifically, again – the 2003 birthday speech of H.M. the King:

“Victory in the war on drugs is good. They may blame the crackdown for more than 2,500 deaths, but this is a small price to pay. If the prime minister failed to curb [the drugs trade], over the years the number of deaths would easily surpass this toll. The lives of many officials are lost in working to bring the drug trade under control. These figures are often not counted, but it could be as high as the number of victims in the war on drugs.”

I hope i don’t need to explain any further how complex this particular issue is.

The assorted Human Rights violations in the South were also notable. Yet, the person who has given the order to attack Krue Sue Mosque – Gen. Panlop Pinmanee – has even been made special adviser to ISOC under the military government. The responsible officers for Tak Bai were also not tried during the time of the military government, so their only punishment remains which was dished out during Thaksin’s government – a whopping sent off to inactive posts until things calmed down.

As to the other pending court cases, and how questionable they are, you should read following article from Asia Sentinel:

http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=536&Itemid=31

Much of what Thaksin did was at least questionable, and inappropriate – i believe nobody here disputes that. But it was in collaboration with many that are now his outspoken opponents, who raise his questionable actions into levels of crime they might not belong, or, where they clearly belong, they are not prosecuted, and his collaborators and beneficiaries are not even mentioned.
Demonizing Thaksin, by distorting facts, and going on a witch hunt does not serve Thailand or its people – it only serves his opponents who benefit from the same system that allowed Thaksin to rise.

I understand it is easy to apply such an impertinent tone from the position of anonymity, but it will not lead to a productive discussion. So, please, for the sake of the discussion, be more civil, please.