New Mandala

48 responses so far ↓

• 1 nganadeeleg // Aug 11, 2008 at 5:03 pm

  Running a scare campaign is not so easy when the bogeyman flees with his tail between his legs.

  But he has also basically handed them an admission of guilt, which helps to justify their stand against him.

  IMO his cries of unfair treatment do not stack up – if anything the courts seem to have been very lenient on him and his family over the years.

  As for his claims of assassination attempts, that is sad, but I find it hard to believe that the threats would be any more than previously – remember this is the man who was very tough on the southern insurgency and was the front man in his drug war extra-judicial killing spree.

  I wonder, did he notify the authorities of such threats?

  Will be interesting to follow the $2 billion money trail!

• 2 jonfernquest // Aug 11, 2008 at 5:22 pm

  “…if anything the courts seem to have been very lenient on him and his family over the years.”

  Yep. A real judicial system with teeth, that will hopefully masticate on other powerful people too.

  Predictable western worshippers of pure raw demographic vote count and the overwhelming power this hands to poorer sections of the country will lament this turn of events. Hopefully, the center Bangkok can get on with the important business of diversifying Thailand’s economy out of agriculture, breaking of the political mire it was stuck in.

• 3 matty // Aug 11, 2008 at 5:30 pm

  Maybe what AW meant was “New Mandala and Andrew Walker will miss Thaksin!”. Because Andrew’s champion of Thai democracy and defender of the rurally constipated had bolted to exile after his wife Potjaman was judicially convicted for tax evasion (the evidence to convict was just overwhelming) and Thaksin had seen the judicial writing on the wall.

  But it had always been Thaksin’s belief that only a ‘majority vote’ in an election should be the judge of his sins or virtues. Perhaps Andrew Walker and New Mandala believe so too?

• 4 Observer // Aug 11, 2008 at 7:26 pm

  “… hopefully masticate on other powerful people too.”

  Only if they too get in the way of the more powerful people running the courts.

  I have no problems getting rid of Thaksin, but the old boss isn’t any better.

• 5 david w // Aug 11, 2008 at 8:44 pm

  We will soon see just impartial the judiciary is. How committed to the rule of law. Will they aggressively follow up on the red card case involving the Democrats? Will the Democrats be threatened with dissolution? Or will all of that fade into silence…

  Sadly, I predict the latter. They seem to quite enjoy their status as privileged (and protected from criticism) servants of the King.

• 6 fall // Aug 12, 2008 at 12:47 am

  But Thaksin’s no-show in the Supreme Court could be most costly for the PAD and the Democrats. Running a scare campaign is not so easy when the bogeyman flees with his tail between his legs.

  The PAD and Dem does not need the actual person to be here, or have you forgotten that their complain started long before Thaksin flew back to Thailand?
  Without looking at PAD announcement, I would dare bet they would announce another victory and proceed onward to topple the so-called puppet-government and Thaksinocracy…

• 7 Thad Williamson // Aug 12, 2008 at 7:51 am

  surprised there isn’t more activity on this thread…but it isn’t the better question not who wins or loses in the short-term from this, but what possibilities a truly post-Thaksin political landscape might present? Is there any plausible hope of re-constituting a political force that included the better aspects of Thaksin’s policies (discussed by Andrew elsewhere) with a recommitment to the ideals of the ‘97 constitution? just a naive question from a distant observer, but I’d be curious to see more discussion of that.

  Still another possibility, of course, is that freed from the Thaksin obsession the Dems might actually now spend time laying out a constructive program for how they would govern better than the incumbents.

• 8 Jim Taylor // Aug 12, 2008 at 11:22 am

  Hardly anyone has noted some important facts:
  1. the media’s persisted brainwashing and demonisation of Thaksin since (and indeed before) 2005 and the continuing distorted and biased anti-Thaksin reporting cheerled by the lunatic Sondhi Lim and his mob of so-called “democrats” intent on bringing the country & elected government down to emplace its own minority government;
  2. The emplacement by the 2006 coup cronies of high level judiciary that no one can touch has made any fair hearing impossible for the ex-PM or his family (would anyone of the readers stay in Thailand and cop this under these circumstances?)
  4. All the innuendos and allegations about Thaksin are without substance but have been taken as fact in itself. Whether we like it or not, he in fact acted within the law during his political tenure (though the question of whether his actions were “appropriate” are quite another matter). He was rich before entering politics not from politics.
  5. If anyone wants to know why TRT and PPP were elected and why they are pissed off by PAD’s actions listen to the popular electorate in the countryside or the migrant poor in the city who seem to know more about “democracy” than the intellectuals, cartels, mafia, Democrat-voters and mid-level government officials who lost their under-table benfits during Thaksin’s government.
  Readers should not rely on the Nation or that equally propagandised the Manager, but try and access Thai language alternatives web-sites that circumvent the Sondhi and friends controlled mainstream media.

• 9 matty // Aug 12, 2008 at 1:59 pm

  It would be nice if as Thad Williamson suggested the Thai nation would begin to move forward and quickly lay to rest the sordid Thaksin chapter. The Thaksin bubble had burst, the Thai judiciary had reasserted its independence and Thai rule of law had regained credibility in the process.

  There will be whiners like Jim Taylor who would continue to ascribe ‘judicial bias’ even where meticulous judicial process was observed in Thaksin’s or Potjaman’s case. Many Thais actually believed Thaksin & the Shinawatras did not deserve due process considering the rampant police death squad killings, sans due process, during Thaksin’s anti-drug madness while in power.

  But in the end Thaksin could not demonstrate courage nor conviction when the going got tough. No Aung Sang Suu Kyi our Thaksin Shinawatra . . . But instead: “Thailand’s wimp of the decade” will be Thaksin’s historical footnote.

• 10 nganadeeleg // Aug 12, 2008 at 2:28 pm

  If today’s article in the Bangkok Post by Pradit Ruangdit is true, it seems like the Samak government had advance notice of his intentions, advised him to flee, and possibly aided in the planning & execution.

  Hard to believe that a government would do such a thing – completely throwing rule of law out the door would put them on a very slippery slope indeed!

• 11 Anon I. Mouse // Aug 12, 2008 at 4:46 pm

  Having lived in Thailand most of my life I am surprised by the comments made.
  The last election was totally rigged. In the area I live I witnessed this personally. However this was not the first time for such like. It is normal and happens at every election.
  Under the Thaksin regime some 3000 people were killed in the war on drugs. After investigation it was determined around half had nothing to do with drugs.
  All has been swept under the table.
  Do you think this man Samak is any good? Do you know of his past?
  He was the one who ordered the army to shoot on the protesters sometime ago in the late 70’s.
  The PAD is representative of a large percent of the population. Mostly educated people unlike the supporters of Thaksin who are generally not too educated rural types.
  The general feeling in Thailand is that the current government has failed as it’s only purpose seems to be changing the constitution so all the corrupt politicians can avoid prosecution.
  It is time for a change wouldn’t you say so?

• 12 Thad Williamson // Aug 13, 2008 at 4:24 am

  What do people make of this analysis of “a post-Thaksin Thailand” from the Bangkok Post by Thitinan Pongsudhirak?

  http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/topstories.php?id=129552

  Particularly notable it seems is his closing statement:

  “Mr Thaksin’s economic and bureaucratic reforms, income redistribution schemes, and policy innovations that boosted Thailand’s competitiveness in the global economy should be retained as much as the corruption, cronyism and abuses of power should be dealt with. It is imperative for the conservative alliance behind his political decapitation to accept that not all of what Mr Thaksin stood for was wrong. Unless his opponents come to terms with what is positive about his legacy, Thailand’s crisis is likely to persist.”

• 13 manning sawwinner // Aug 13, 2008 at 11:36 am

  Thank you, Jim Taylor, for your perceptive comment. I happen to agree that Mr. Thaksin is being unjustly treated. It makes me worry about the lopsided Thai mentality.

• 14 Sidh S. // Aug 13, 2008 at 9:57 pm

  Khun Manning, so the judiciary should behave like it did in 2001 assets concealment case? A justly treatment for you is to see all the crimes and abuses as a long series of “honest mistakes”? Besides, what unjust treatment are you talking about? He’s not in jail is he?

  No, justice meted out to the rich and poor is still starkly different. There are many innocent victims of PMThaksin’s War on Drugs who will NEVER see justice. PMThaksin got a fair trial and then he was ALLOWED to flee.

  Thad #12, I agree with AjarnThitinan – but I am certain the politicians of any color will continue many of PMThaksin’s policies (even the Democrats), especially as they are now guaranteed vote winners. So Thai society will have it both ways, PMThaksin is ’seen’ to be punished (but not really – unless they also seize his assets that is) and his better policies continued.

  And as I have always suspected (re past postings), that it is PMSamak who is the master manipulater here. The aging, Master Politician has, at the end of the day, got the better of PMThaksin. He has realized his 40 year old dream of becoming PM without having to invest a cent – and has now gained significant political capital in the PPP government from scratch. PMThaksin seemed to have forgotten that PMSamak is fully aware that his is a one-term prime minister – so he will stretch this as long as he could and would not work to PMThaksin’s impatience. All PMSamak has done through the years is say the right things – like the verbal bashings of the PAD and the courts. I hope, for the sake of the country, that he can do better now that PMThaksin has retreated (hopefully permanently) and now that the judiciary has set precedents on how lawmakers who break the law will be dealt with.

  What we need now are brave reformers – policians, bureaucrats, civic society – to reform the police and military (and also education). Is PMSamak up to the task – or do we have to wait for the next election?

• 15 Ladyboy // Aug 14, 2008 at 10:22 pm

  Sidh, now that Thaksin is out of the way do you think that the judiciary should now turn its gaze to the past actions of HMK as outlined by Republican, Somsak et al on this blog?
  As you say: There are many innocent victims of …who will NEVER see justice.

• 16 karmablues // Aug 15, 2008 at 3:14 am

  Finally, a good opinion piece about the Fugitive in the International Herald Tribune.

  http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/13/opinion/edthai.php

  Inoculating Thailand against one-man rule

  August 13, 2008

• 17 Srithanonchai // Aug 15, 2008 at 5:26 pm

  # 8 The reporting in Thai newspaper indeed is annoying. Until now, we don’t even have any (as far as I can see) substantial legal interpretation of the verdict regarding Pojaman, etc. The public sphere is so awash with prefabricated discoursive elements that it is very hard to keep an independent point of view. As for the courts, ever since the king’s command in April 2006, judicial independence has been even more in question than before. Let’s see how the Ratchada land case will turn out.

• 18 Bangkok Pundit // Aug 15, 2008 at 9:17 pm

  Srithanonchai : Given I am apparently a paid Thaksin hack, I think the court’s interpretation of the law was fair. It is the most solid case.

• 19 Fonzi // Aug 16, 2008 at 8:17 am

  So of my detractors might have a heart attack, but I think Thaksin crying about not receiving justice is pretty pathetic, especially when I think he did use those same instruments of power to protect himself and his cronies while he was in power.

  However, those detractors who might have had a heart attack from what I just wrote seem a little hypocritical to me.

  What is up with all the rants about Thaksin’s so-called extrajudicial killings during the “War on Drugs” and his policies in the South?

  The Surayud regime had plenty of time to investigate and bring to justice all those police officers, generals, and bureaucrats that supposedly supported Thaksin during his murderous rampages and actually pulled the triggers and earned the profits from that mayhem and death, yet nothing was done at all. Kraisak Choonhavan set up a special committee during the Surayud era to find the perpetrators responsible for the murders during the “War on Drugs.” How many were prosecuted?

  Thaksin was not an island all unto himself who was personally killing people. Others were involved. They are still living freely in Thailand as we speak. They are not in exile hiding from the law. And nobody seems to be complaining about them.

  People love to complain about Thaksin. But Thailand’s problems come down to the law not being applied equally to everybody and is used as a tool to destroy political enemies instead of serving justice and the Thai people.

• 20 nganadeeleg // Aug 16, 2008 at 10:26 am

  People love to complain about Thaksin. But Thailand’s problems come down to the law not being applied equally to everybody and is used as a tool to destroy political enemies instead of serving justice and the Thai people.

  At the risk of giving you a heart attack, Fonzi, I agree.

  However (and sorry to harp on about Thaksin), on this site and others, there has been a lot of barracking for Thaksin as some sort of savior, when he was really just part of the same old problem.

  At further risk of heart attacks, Republican, Somsak J & others might be surprised to know that I do have sympathy for their cause, however IMO continuing to support Thaksin after he had shown his true colors did not help and, if anything, has setback their cause.

  And no, I don’t think they were/are in his pay – I just think they are desperate after all these years.

• 21 matty // Aug 16, 2008 at 1:02 pm

  Aha Fonzi my worthy adversary still ranting about the hypocrisy of the righteous Thais who are now (belatedly?) singling Thaksin for the carnage during anti-drugs and the South flare-up. Fonzi and Bangkok Pundit both at least cannot be faulted for their consistency about the inconsistencies, they believe, of Thai justice in the case of one Thaksin Shinawatra.

  Plenty of time, Fonzi says, the junta appointed PM Surayud had enough of to put the stakes on that blood thirsty extra-injudicious Thaksin. Now Fonzi you must be ranting… Unless you were suggesting PM Surayud at that time to employ mass arrests and coercive methods to get confessions and other rushed evidence against Thaksin on the extra-judicials. (Not to mention of course other national priorities at those precarious immediate post-coup times?)

  But of course Fonzi and Bangkok Pundit both believe Thai justice should ‘consistently’ be pursued in the order of bottoms up to the ladder and sequentially, before Thaksin Shinawatra should be tried.
  Meaning every police death squad shooters by rank first, before Thaksin and all past government leaders still living directly or indirectly responsible for any previous extra-judicials, before Thaksin. (That is fairy tale justice, fair and consistent, that would satisfy Fonzi and Bangkok Pundit).

  But I could really be stricken by a heart attack or stroke if Thailand somehow sometime get the courage to formally/judicially try Thaksin and/or any his police death squad cohorts for the anti-drugs killing madness during Thaksin’s rule.

  My faint heart can take only so much . . .

• 22 jonfernquest // Aug 16, 2008 at 1:45 pm

  “…he was really just part of the same old problem.”

  The conflict could very well enter round two with PAD versus the banned TRT executives trying amend the constitution so they can repeat more “old problems,” namely politics as a competition to stack the government full loyal cronies that will help you extract rents.

  For example, the current ICT minister is the protege of Vatana, currently holed up in a Cambodian hotel trying to evade punishment for the ADB financed waste treatment project he used as a wealth generating machine. Supposedly, the ICT minister stacked the ministry with loyal family members:

  http://www.bangkokpost.com/140808_News/14Aug2008_news95.php

• 23 Srithanonchai // Aug 16, 2008 at 5:05 pm

  Bangkok Pundit: “It is the most solid case.” This might very well be the case. What I am asking for is not any opinion on the case, which are plenty. I am asking for a solid legal interpretation for non-lawyers, which does the case justice. Have you seen any (in Thai or English)?

• 24 Sidh S. // Aug 16, 2008 at 5:34 pm

  Ladyboy#15, it is up to people affected to file court cases to the judiciary. I suppose you can too (just use your real name) – as Republican, AjarnSomsak etal could. And PMThaksin is not “out of the way” – he merely flee bail – and that is why I am very disappointed. Having PMThaksin in jail will send chills to all other perpetrators of state abuse – even those opposed to him.

• 25 Jim Taylor // Aug 17, 2008 at 8:09 pm

  Let me quote something from the independent “Asia Sentinel” in 2007/in case some of you dont know, or maybe dont want to know??

  QUOTE
  ‘The 2006 constitution empowers the same anti-Thaksin bureaucrats, judges, soldiers and royalists that tinkered with and rewrote the law for political gain, leading many voters to tire of an elitist power struggle that is heavy on buzz words like “democracy” and “human rights” but light on any tangible steps to make them a reality. Even a cursory glance at the state of independent bodies now should give anti-Thaksin zealots who claim to love democracy cause for concern. The Election Commission just oversaw a referendum on a constitution that two of its five members helped to write and that allows them to maintain their jobs for the next six years. The National Counter Corruption Commission has taken a back seat to the Assets Examination Committee, a junta creation that froze Thaksin’s money on dubious legal grounds. A seven-member committee comprised mostly of judges will now appoint nearly half of the new 150-member Senate, which is tasked with overseeing independent agencies.

  Indeed, most worrying is the judiciary itself. The troubles began in April 2006, when King Bhumibol Adulyadej made a speech telling judges “to solve the problem” stemming the political stalemate that had gripped the country since Thaksin initially dissolved Parliament in February 2006.

  Since then, nearly every major court decision has been laced with political overtones, infuriating legal experts who fear the judiciary’s independence has been compromised. Moreover, the new constitution grants new powers to judges to appoint members to key independent bodies, giving them more powers outside the courtroom that threaten to undermine their objectivity.

  The recent disclosure of taped conversations held last year between two judges and an unidentified bureaucrat reveals the extent to which Thailand’s judiciary skirted the law to void the boycotted April 2006 election and toss the previous election commissioners in jail. The Asian Legal Resource Centre (ALRC), in conjunction with the Asian Human Rights Commission, has posted a transcript of the conversations on its website with the following caveat: “Although the authenticity of the recording had not been confirmed at time of going to print, it has not been denied.”

  Jakrapob Penkair, a former Thaksin government spokesman now leading anti-coup demonstrations, aired the taped conversation at a public rally in May. Police are now seeking to bring charges against him under a coup group order that bans the airing of wiretapped conversations without authorization.

  The most damning part of the conversation quotes Supreme Court Secretary Virat Chinvinijkul revealing that the courts had already agreed on a verdict before the cases ever went to trial, according to the ALRC transcript…
  All of the major court decisions over the past year put political expediency ahead of justice. As if playing by a script, the courts nullified the April 2006 election, tossed the election commissioners in jail, dissolved the Thai Rak Thai party and banned its executives for five years.

  Now the generals have issued arrest warrants for Thaksin and his wife Pojaman for conflict of interest for the 2003 purchase of a prime land plot (in what was a transparent tendering process on a piece of land that no one then wanted). More warrants are expected in the coming weeks…’ ENDQUOTE

  Interestingly, it is the same persons selected by the military that control the judiciary and have secured extended positions who are currently pursuing the same causes initiated in 2006 by the military-Democrat Alliance and its fabricated story on former PM Thaksin. It is also jealousy and power; desire by Thaksin’s former business friends such as Sondhi Lim- an indebted wannabe tycoon. Sondhi had asked Thaksin to “bury” his debts under the table post-2007 crisis to which Thaksin correctly refused. The vendetta continues as the story teller spins his lies incessantly day in day out over the past four years to an audience made receptive by the coup’s (kor Mor Chor) propaganda machinery. This controls today most of the print and electronic media. Please keep an open mind.

• 26 Greg R // Aug 18, 2008 at 1:06 am

  It took a long time for Thaksin and Thailand to believe that he would not walk off scot free under the PPP.

  Its too early to tell whether his fall from grace will have any lasting effects as a lesson for would-be corrupt Thai politicians, or on the confidence of the Thai public – many of whom seem to believe that money is the ultimate guarantor of power and influence and that democracy is mainly a mechanism for channelling funds to cronies – in the democratic system of government.

  One thing that strikes me is that how the Surayud government, a short phenomonen of little over a year, may come out of this period of history looking quite good.

  Castigated by the media by the Thai media for its economic conservatism and its seeming inertia (particularly in comparison with the dynamism of the Thaksin megaproject era) and by many common people who grumbled about the “sedikit mai di”, Surayud may in time be seen as a great embodiment of the Clint Eastwood admonition that “a man’s got to know his limitations”.

  It appears that Surayud set himself a few non-negotiable objectives; draft a new constitution, hold new elections within a year, and set in train a fair and objective legal process to investigate the allegations of corruption. He focussed on these tasks and little else, other than restoring Thailand’s image internationally and dismantling a few of the more questionable Thaksin populist economic schemes. He weathered much criticism about having done little to freeze Thaksin’s wealth or to ensure that a conviction would occur within the lifetime of his government. It appears that he maintained a considerable distance from General Sonthi and the National Security Council, more than they would have liked. And in the end, he got the job done, in only a little more time than the foreign governments would have liked.

  He has faded quickly into the obscurity, but in choosing to concentrate on doing a few things very well, his impact on future Thai politics and history may be disproportionate.

• 27 Jim Taylor // Aug 18, 2008 at 8:47 am

  A last riposte to this blog (sorry with spell-check on this time!) :
  Just for another insight check out the following as alternative social and political comment to the Sondhi/PAD (& Democrat-former Khor Mor Chor Alliance) propaganda machine:
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_i5CljFpP8
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRcj9WDo_lU

  Readers may also wish to check alternative media sites such as:
  “Thai E-News (Hi Thaksin)” and “Nocoup.org” both of which were blocked from time to time during the coup years by the coup’s well paid web censors. Much of this is in Thai but there are some English bits.

  A couple of quick points: Sondhi’s hate campaign against Thaksin continues as the story teller spins day in day out on his ASTV. TRT’s former PTV, managed by a warrior friend from Sanam Luang demo days in 2007 and now Deputy Gov Spokesman Natthiwut Saikua, got their license taken away because of its associations with Thaksin, while Sondhi’s ASTV which is (not coincidently) PAD’s centre stage electronic platform continued untouched to scream irrational abuse at former PM Thaksin and…lese-majesty (though Sondhi walks free while poor Da Torpido says the same thing on her radio program but is currently in jail). I stayed in a forest monastery in Northeast Thailand with a key coup-maker in 2005 and know for a fact that the coup was planned sixteen months beforehand and indeed even further back. The whole thing was well orchestrated under Prem’s hand.

• 28 Reading // Aug 18, 2008 at 11:49 am

  Actually,

  the troubles began years before 2006, when Thaksin corrupted the courts to allow him to skip jail for asset concealment.

  It took the King to remind the courts that their duty is to do their job justly.

• 29 Jim Taylor // Aug 18, 2008 at 11:55 am

  Actually, the courts could not hold him accountable in accordance with the law as it had existed even in the Democrat days – unless you want to change the law which post-2006 coup-makers and their friends want to do to achieve their ends.

• 30 nganadeeleg // Aug 18, 2008 at 2:03 pm

  It’s hard to hold anyone accountable when they are allowed to simply run away.

  So much for Thaksin wanting to clear his name in the courts!

  Judging by Jim’s series of posts it looks like the propaganda war might again be in full swing – the Thaksin side always was better at spin, and it’s looking increasingly likely the escape to London was just a tactical retreat.

• 31 Bangkok Pundit // Aug 18, 2008 at 4:22 pm

  Matty said “But of course Fonzi and Bangkok Pundit both believe Thai justice should ‘consistently’ be pursued in the order of bottoms up to the ladder and sequentially, before Thaksin Shinawatra should be tried.”

  Can you point where I said that others should be tried before Thaksin is tried?

  Srithanonchai said “I am asking for a solid legal interpretation for non-lawyers, which does the case justice.”

  I did a couple of posts on the issue looking at the law. What specifically were you after?

• 32 Sidh S. // Aug 18, 2008 at 10:46 pm

  Jim Taylor #27 said “… I stayed in a forest monastery in Northeast Thailand with a key coup-maker in 2005 and know for a fact that the coup was planned sixteen months beforehand and indeed even further back…”

  Jim, could the coup been hatched since 2001 when GenSurayud was ‘bumped upstairs’? PMThaksin personally called GenSurayud to ask “P’Aed, would you stage a coup?” GenSurayud came back as PM after the coup – you would have spot the obvious link?!

  Jim, Vatana just got a 10 year jail term:
  Court sentences Vatana Asavahem to ten years in jail in:
  http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/08/18/politics/politics_30080855.php

  Hmmm… the courts must have “already agreed on a verdict before the cases ever went to trial”!!??

  And Jim#29 “Actually, the courts could not hold him accountable in accordance with the law as it had existed even in the Democrat days – unless you want to change the law which post-2006 coup-makers and their friends want to do to achieve their ends.”

  You’ve probably gone way too far there, Jim. Please do your homework before making such shocking statements (otherwise you are guilty of spinning lies). We all know PMThaksin should not have got off the 2001 assets concealment case. Anyone who read the court transcripts will see that the evidences were solid (as they are in KhunYingPotjaman’s case – and probably cases pending if only PMThaksin had the guts to face them). I am sure you were one of the many people who had ask over many years “where is the evidence of PMThaksin’s corruption”? Now that there are evidences, have the guts to see it as it is – corruption and abuse of power.

  And PMThaksin is NOT AN ISOLATED CASE. Since the passage of the 1997 Constitution, there have been a string high profile convictions from such as MajGenSanan of the Democrats, KamnanPoh (Chonburi godfather), and now Vatana Asawahem (Samutprakarn godfather). These are certainly positive developments in Thai society/democracy.

  To aid in Thailand’s democratic growth, you are better off highlighting PMThaksin’s and TRT’s better past policies than cowardly discrediting checks and balance institution doing their job properly – as PMThaksin is doing…

• 33 matty // Aug 19, 2008 at 2:13 pm

  I am not sure why that loquacious Fonzi had not responded. Fonzi (#17) appears to remain unconvinced that the “Thaksin’s so-called extrajudicial killings during the War on Drugs” even occurred while Bangkok Pundit, if memory had not deserted me, on the other hand questioned the accuracy of the number of police death squad kills (personally I suspect there were actually more police death squads killings than reported or estimated).

  But I confessed I shot extrajudicial-like with my #21 poster that BP and Fonzi demand ‘consistency in Thai justice’ before Thaksin should be tried. I merely wanted to draw their attention to the questions in my mind about where BP and Fonzi stand on the issue of Thaksin’s extra-judicial killing responsibility. Because both Fonzi and BP, if not downright evasive, are very defensive about Thaksin every time the issue of the extrajudicial police death squads killings crop up in the blogs.

  Without further ado BP and Fonzi: Do both of you still believe that Thaksin did not preside over, and direct, the anti-drugs killings that resulted in thousands of villagers killed during Thaksin’s rule?
  (I am NOT asking whether or not Thaksin should be judicially tried for his role in the extra-judicial police death squad killing affair because it looks like it is not going to happen).

• 34 Jim Taylor // Aug 19, 2008 at 6:33 pm

  In relation to the judicary (which even PPP cannot reform unless the Constitution is changed) What checks and balances? checks and imbalances more likely; precisely the problem of why fairness cannot be shown in the current judicial climate. As long as there are emplaced Anti-Thaksinites in the courts with a further 10 year tenure (offered earlier as a “bribe” by the military) with a clear manadate to get Thaksin whatever then the result can be predicted. I would challenege all readers to show the evidence against Thaksin- not heresy or rumours spread by Sondhi Lim (that includes Sidh S. [by the way - why are you folk scared to show your real names??]). In anycase, do not measure Thailand with a Western democracy where there are real checks and balances. The problem is that people who hate Thaksin are never going to change their attitudes whatever facts are shown in front of them. Hence, why am I wasting my time writing this now???

  The junta needed to make sure their servants remain in charge of the Constitutional Tribunal for the following nine years. All lawsuits filed against the junta and their servants, like the lawsuit of the Asset Examination Committee which issued various illegal assets freezing orders, and any future lawsuits by those harmed by the coup, will be heard by the junta’s selected group of obedient servants. Just like the tribunals which followed the orders of the junta’s leader to ban the Thai Rak Thai Party.
  This is what the leading independent law lecturers of Thailand had to say about this issue last year before the election (which showed once again that Thaksin and his policies were much loved by the masses):
  “It is eminent that the Proposed Draft confers extensive and additional power and authority on the Judiciary. For example, all selections of personnel for those independent government bodies setup by virtue of the Constitution will require approval by the President of the Supreme Court or his designated person as well as the approval by the President of the Administrative Court and the Chairman of the Constitutional Tribunal or their designees. In regard to the judiciary, the Proposed Draft involves the judiciary in politics through the nomination and selection process. Further, all political disputes shall now be subject to the judicial branch through its ‘criminal division for politicians’. Any disputes in relation to the (forthcoming) election will also be decided by the judiciary, not by holding a new election”. It is clear that the judiciary will monitor and balance the political activities but there is no mechanism to monitor and balance the power of the judiciary!

  Did anyone of the readers, as I did, spend many nights at Sanam Luang in the rain in June/July 2007 talking to the ordinary folk who actually care about Thailand?? Has anyone spent time talking to rural folk and hearing their passion and sincerity about the man they admire for doing so much for the country??

• 35 matty // Aug 19, 2008 at 10:19 pm

  Jim Taylor as always compel me to cry a river for Thaksin.

• 36 Sidh S. // Aug 20, 2008 at 12:01 am

  “I would challenege all readers to show the evidence against Thaksin”

  Jim Taylor, the courts have produced transcripts of the convictions so far (there’ll be so much more if only PMThaksin did not flee). I will assume that your Thai is fluent as you seem so sure of what you say. THOSE ARE EVIDENCES, proven through court processes, that you can quote here and dispute for all the world to see. I will be the first to believe you if can really carry this out convincingly, well supported with your water-tight evidences. Until you do that, you are only spinning rumours/lies (like good ol’ Karl Rove).

  I have my doubts you’ll even attempt it and will go on spinnin’ away (in which case, I will discontinue this conversation). Unlike previous coups, this is no kangaroo court. If that was the case, PMThaksin would have been convicted within weeks or months of the coup. The AEC painstakingly investigated and built up evidences over almost two years. In fact many senior to mid-level bureaucrats resisted collaboration with AEC for fear of PMThaksin’s return (he did and many have already paid by being removed to inactive positions).

  I don’t dispute the fact (the only fact you mentioned) that PMThaksin is popular amongst rural voters who benefit from his policies (many of them certainly good and should be continued). I strongly dispute the fact that you see him as totally innocent of all corruption and abuses of power – when even the man himself has admitted making “honest mistakes” and being “not perfect”. It makes me wonder where you have been living all those years (apart from getting chummy with a “key coup maker” at a forest monastery in 2005 – if only you warned PMThaksin then!!!).

• 37 nganadeeleg // Aug 20, 2008 at 9:45 am

  Jim Taylor: We have heard some of your opinions, so why not enlighten us further with some facts regarding:
  - how the frozen 73 billion baht has already been spent
  - how the coup was planned 16 months or more beforehand (by Prem?)

  We’ve already heard your opinions on the appropriateness of tinkering with the institutions, checks & balances of democracy and placing obedient servants into positions of authority (something I’m sure Thaksin would never even have dreamed of doing)
  
  so lets also hear your opinion regarding the following:
  - the role of Pol. Lt. Col. Thaksin Shinawatra in the war on drugs extra-judicial killing spree
  - the use of nominees, maids, tax havens etc to avoid taxes in general, and by a government leader in particular
  - the appropriateness of politicians family businesses being specifically benefitted by govt policies, and the wife of a PM doing land deals with govt bodies
  - concealing assets (on more than one occasion)
  - the initial handling of the renewed southern insurgency

  I’m all for giving credit to Thaksin where it’s due, but what purpose does blindly ignoring, or worse, defending his wrongdoings serve?

• 38 Jim Taylor // Aug 20, 2008 at 11:27 am

  Thaksin is not perfect- as he would say himself. Who is? Especially in politics. But we need to take a broader vision and not get blocked by personality. Those under him claimed he was a taskmaster. But those spent time in Thailand would know that during his years government worked efficiently, the economy was growing, the poor were getting benefits through decentralisation and the best public health scheme in the region. He got rid of the massive underground lottery mafia and channelled the money into higher education for poor students. This was all transparent and accountable. Thaksin knew what was wanted but at the time, especially in his second term, was at times short of consultative processes with civil society and some academics as he tried to make short cuts. He felt that people themselves should take responsibility for grassroots initiatives and funds management (though not always successful in a number of villages [I was working with CD training/workshopping at the time and know this much]) – thus taking power/funding opportunities from a number of NGOs. These same people, and senior government officials used to the old ways, many who I have been working with for twenty years since the Prem Government in the 1980s, saw their benefits and influential voices disappearing as new technocrats and people’s advisors came on board. He introduced a reform “People’s audit” system which for the first time made government accountable to the people down to the grassroots. His tackling violence in the south and drug cartels was left to his lieutenants. He took Thailand out of the Chuan Government’s inactive mess post-1997, which was riddled with controversy over illegal land dealings involving Democrat MPs and he was able to pay back the IMF. The story goes on. What you folks see is only that he was rich, very rich, and the rest you listen to is the propaganda by interests and powers that long wanted him out of the way so that they could maintain the status quo ante. You remind me of the Thai fable of the blind persons trying to describe the elephant.
  As for the evidence? if the judiciary is stacked, which is clearly is, then how can even the evidence be trusted? It is a circular argument. The coup-makers spent sixteen months and many person-hours and funding trying to pin him down with hard evidence. They would have liked nothing more than to justify the coup which was starting to be criticised underground. They could find none in the end. Last year the electorate had a free choice and voted for a government that could follow a similar political and economic model to pull Thailand round after the devastating period of the coup management and its wasting away of the country’s coffers. You know nothing but claim to know it all. That is a dangerous position.

• 39 nganadeeleg // Aug 20, 2008 at 8:14 pm

  According to Jim Taylor, Pol. Lt. Col. Thaksin/PM had no involvement in the war on drugs & he “left it to his lieutenants

  So are you saying he had no control or authority during his time as PM, or that he was merely negligent?

  Are you also saying you can see no evidence whatsoever of use of nominees, maids, tax havens etc to avoid taxes, or asset concealment?

  If there was no evidence of anything, why would Thaksin run?
  Surely the truth would come out in court, and if the charges were groundless Thaksin should have no difficulty clearing his name, be vindicated & regain respect?

  IMO, after the Pojaman verdict, he saw that he would not be able to buy the courts anymore, leading him to choose a tactical retreat and let his spin doctors go to work on his behalf.
  That spin process is already in full swing.

  I look forward to you addressing directly the matters I raised in post #37 above, and here’s another request: – Can you please provide a critique of why the Pojaman tax case verdict is wrong
  (just saying the judiciary is stacked doesn’t cut it – you will have to do better than that!)

  “You know nothing but claim to know it all. That is a dangerous position”.
  

• 40 Jim Taylor // Aug 21, 2008 at 6:39 pm

  Here isan open letter by Democratic Activist and Journalist Tavivoot Chulavachana
  7/2/1907

  QUOTE
  Dear International Press

  A Protest Note of In-Justice Being Done on Thailand’s Former Prime Minister, Thaksin Shinawatra

  Grabbing the head-lines in Bangkok are two high profile cases, one bought about by the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) and another one bought about by the junta’s appointed Corruption Probe Body.

  The DSI case is being used to bring Thaksin back to Thailand, from England. The Corruption body case was used to confisticate Thaksin’s assets in Thailand.

  On both cases, those responsible for the cases have issued statements relating to the charges. In The DSI case, a company gave up the right to exercise a capital increase plan to Thaksin’s daughter and another company sold back shares to Thaksi’s family held company in a short time, after having bought the company from Thaksin’s family. The DSI concluded from these two events, that the company are therefore nominees of Thaksin’s family all along.

  If this was proven by the courts as true, that the company was indeed a Thaksin’s family nominee, Thaksin is guilty of not telling the stock market of significant shares transfers, second not telling the anti-corruption body in declaring all assets of politician, and third, of hiding the true level of ownership in a company, hurting small share-holders.

  The validity of the argument by DSI, is telling of the type of circumstantial evidence bought against Thaksin, in such an important case, that could see Thaksin brought back to Thailand, when the junta leader, have expressed viled threats on Thaksin’s life.

  The second case, used to confisticate Thaksin’s assets, is equally circumstantial, an weak in nature. By law Thai politicians can’t hold assets in companies that does business with the state, such as the telecom empire Thaksin built before entering politics. So he sold the company to his sons and daughters. To prove Thaksin never sold the company to his sons and daughters, the junta appointed corruption body said, Thaksin lent money to his childerns through promissory notes, where the interest on the promissory notes tied to the dividens his children received from the telecom empire he sold to them.

  Again, the validity of this argument by the junta appointed body, is equally circumstantial and weak in nature.

  In finance, there are many reasons why a company will choose not to participate in a capital increase plan and choose to give the right to someone. This hardly qualifies the company as a nominee. Then the question about the reason behind the length in holding a company before selling it, is even more in numbers. Then the sheer fact that interest expense is tied to dividend received, is hardly enough to say, the one receiving the dividens is the owner of the company.

  These two cases illustrated the length in “connecting the dots and level of interpretation” Thai suthorities are using against Thaksin.

  Please also note the penalty of such offense if proven by the Thai courts as true. These crimes are not corruption crimes but crime of “breaking small technicalities”. And please note the level of prosecution, such as seeking to arrest Thaksin as international criminat back to Thailand when the juta leader have issued viled threat against Thaksin’s life. And second, used the charges to confisicate a business empire built before Thaksin entering Thai politics.

  This note is meant to educate readers of what is occurring in Thailand and to protest the “prosecution”of Thaksin, with so little hard evidence.
  UNQUOTE

  Tavivoot Chulavachana

  //www.Thai-Journalist-Democratic-Front
  “We are fighting for democracy and justice in Thailand”

  Readers can also check underground alternative sites (away from the media dominated fascist PAD propaganda) such as:

  Thai-grassroots.com
  truethaksin.com
  thaksin.net
  nocoup.org
  Thai E-News

• 41 Jim Taylor // Aug 21, 2008 at 6:50 pm

  OK boys, something else to reflect on re: interference in the thai judicial system. Mr Jarun bhakdithanakul who is the current constitutional court was appointed the permanent secretary of the ministry for justice, committee to draft the current constitution by kor mor chor. Recently, he applied to sit in the above court while the anti psd protested his application. As a result, he is now sitting there in the constitutional court to judge thaksin’ s case. Also, he was the person responsible for spreading the story about thaksin’s lawyer bribing court officers a while ago. Now the supreme court asks for evidence that he claimed to have but he said that he had already passed it on to por por chor ( anti corruption body). This body, as we all know, is composed mobs who hate thaksin such as klanarong chantik, etc.. It gets better..more to come (watch this page!!)

• 42 nganadeeleg // Aug 22, 2008 at 8:18 am

  Jim Taylor: Again you have failed to answer direct questions, and instead continue with the spin.

  Are you concerned at manipulation of the judiciary per se, or only because Thaksin no longer seems to be able to stack it in his favor?

  Its all crocodile tears, because you know that when Thaksin complains about the judiciary not being fair, what he is really saying is that it’s not fair that he cannot buy them (or the tax officials) anymore.

• 43 Jim Taylor // Aug 24, 2008 at 3:28 pm

  Another example of obfuscation by blog name nganadeeleg. It is not just Thaksin who is pissed off with the corrupt judiciary by according to recent NIDA polls conducted with over a thousand (urban) Thais 40% now believe the judicial system is being manipulated to attack Thaksin. One foreign legal advisory firm noted that Thailand is entering new waters on the subject since traditionally nearly 100% of Thais respected the courts: he said is a recent i/v “I have never seen Thais criticising the courts as casual as this before”. see http://thaiintelligentnews.wordpress.com/. Come on boys – time to wake up!

• 44 Jim Taylor // Aug 24, 2008 at 3:35 pm

  BTW, links to the mischievous Puppet Master Prem? Yes- it first sounds odd that the PAD will pick this Tuesday as the big day for the climatic move against to government since normally big rallies by these goons is reserved for the weekends when people are free from work to join. But this Tuesday falls on Prem’s 88 birthday and according PAD a day under lucky signs!!??

• 45 nganadeeleg // Aug 25, 2008 at 9:05 am

  Jim Taylor: I ask you direct questions and you avoid the question – I will leave it up to readers which of us is practicing obfuscation.

  Upon re-reading this thread, I can see that you have partly answered some of my questions in you post #8 above.

  “All the innuendos and allegations about Thaksin are without substance but have been taken as fact in itself. Whether we like it or not, he in fact acted within the law during his political tenure (though the question of whether his actions were “appropriate” are quite another matter).”

  I disagree that there is no substance and think many of the allegations deserve to be tested in court – which, btw, is more of a chance than the drug war & Tak Bai victims were given.

• 46 matty // Aug 25, 2008 at 3:46 pm

  I googled and I searched but I just can’t locate that NIDA poll Jim Taylor (#43) claimed was just done recently and reflected Thai people’s losing faith in their judicial system. Jim Taylor, you’re not NOW reduced to fudging facts and polls to defend the disgraced Thaksin, are you?

  But my question to you Jim Taylor is why in the hell is Thaksin Shinawatra running sooo pissing scared . . . even to the extent of forfeiting his frozen Baht 76 billion to the authorities? (Personally I would defend to death my measly, but all earned honestly Baht 2.0 against anyone.) And his sudden attack of fear immediately after his wife Potjaman was convicted of tax evasion and after one of his lawyers also convicted for attempting to bribe the judges . . .

  If Thaksin Shinawatra would not dare face the judicial music while his nominee-Samak is PM and his ex-TRT party (now PPP) members are still running the government, not to mention his numerous police general friends and army general friends, still in power, then just when, if ever, will Thaksin Shinawatra gather the courage and the conviction to defend himself , and his principles, and his beloved democracy, in person in Thailand.

  Criminals when found guilty do easily turn to color yellow. And I suggest to you Jim Taylor that your hero Thaksin (while himself not one to endear himself to the Thai royalty) now ironically finds himself in color deep blazing embarrassing yellow!

• 47 Bangkok Pundit // Aug 25, 2008 at 8:13 pm

  Jim: Are you able to provide a link to the NIDA poll? I note that the website/blog you refer to mentions the poll, but that also contains no link.

• 48 matty // Aug 26, 2008 at 12:45 pm

  Hello?

  What happened to Thaksin’s voluble handyman Jim Taylor?

  nganadeeleg, bangkok pundit and matty await your response or have you ran out of cock-and-bull stories?

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