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	<title>Comments on: Nation, religion and monarchy in the fight against Thaksin</title>
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	<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/08/13/nation-religion-and-monarchy-in-the-fight-against-thaksin/</link>
	<description>New perspectives on mainland Southeast Asia</description>
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		<title>By: Jim Taylor</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/08/13/nation-religion-and-monarchy-in-the-fight-against-thaksin/comment-page-1/#comment-535791</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=2623#comment-535791</guid>
		<description>(re-Bystander) There is nothing to do with Thammakai and Thaksin, anymore than the Crown Prince and other royalty at one time patronized the temple as they do at many temples around the country.  So I cannot see where the “obvious” comes in? Thaksin also went to many temples, mostly in the north, but was not particularly inclined towards any sect. Neither did Thammakai claim Thaksin as their follower.  The Acting Supreme Patriarch Somdet Kiew appointed in 2004 is the most senior monk and from the more numerous Mahanikai. It was appropriate for him to be placed in that position to ensure good relations between the two Nikai.  The government tries to alternate the position in discussion with the king, though historically the Thammayut has dominated. This is another example of spinning to try and show connections between Thaksin and a disgraced new religious movement. Good work boys- keep it up!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(re-Bystander) There is nothing to do with Thammakai and Thaksin, anymore than the Crown Prince and other royalty at one time patronized the temple as they do at many temples around the country.  So I cannot see where the “obvious” comes in? Thaksin also went to many temples, mostly in the north, but was not particularly inclined towards any sect. Neither did Thammakai claim Thaksin as their follower.  The Acting Supreme Patriarch Somdet Kiew appointed in 2004 is the most senior monk and from the more numerous Mahanikai. It was appropriate for him to be placed in that position to ensure good relations between the two Nikai.  The government tries to alternate the position in discussion with the king, though historically the Thammayut has dominated. This is another example of spinning to try and show connections between Thaksin and a disgraced new religious movement. Good work boys- keep it up!</p>
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		<title>By: matty</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/08/13/nation-religion-and-monarchy-in-the-fight-against-thaksin/comment-page-1/#comment-534721</link>
		<dc:creator>matty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 03:27:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=2623#comment-534721</guid>
		<description>I wait with bated breath for more Jim Taylor tall tales.

But I still prefer to hear the dirty secrets  direct from the horse&#039;s mouth - Thaksin.    The songs Frank Shinawatra can sing, with Jim Taylor providing the second vocals, to the entranced Thai judges . . .  rap music anyone?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wait with bated breath for more Jim Taylor tall tales.</p>
<p>But I still prefer to hear the dirty secrets  direct from the horse&#8217;s mouth &#8211; Thaksin.    The songs Frank Shinawatra can sing, with Jim Taylor providing the second vocals, to the entranced Thai judges . . .  rap music anyone?</p>
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		<title>By: Bystander</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/08/13/nation-religion-and-monarchy-in-the-fight-against-thaksin/comment-page-1/#comment-533838</link>
		<dc:creator>Bystander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 02:06:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=2623#comment-533838</guid>
		<description>Some minor quibble:  &quot;Russia C130&quot; ?  I don&#039;t think that&#039;s right.  But whatever.

The religious angles of the ongoing saga is very interesting and has not be discussed much.  What&#039;s missing here is the role (whether active /passive) of Dharmakaya sect.  The sect is pro-Thaksin, obviously.  The acting supreme patriach that Thaksin promoted is said to be sympathizer/protector of the sect.   IIRC, the Dharmakaya abbot is supposed to be defrocked but the matter get shoved onto a backburner or something like that.  There&#039;s also the group called Yuwasangha (young monks) with a very militant/ anti-PAD website.  There&#039;s also a large gathering of monks at Sanam Luang that antagonizes the early PAD protest.    Just bits of details that I&#039;m reminded of, upon reading this article.

All in all, though, I think the religious angles is mostly tactical maneuverings by both sides, to galvanize support/ open new avenues for attack, etc.  Neither side strike me as particularly religious/ spiritual.  I suspect they both didn&#039;t give a damn about religions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some minor quibble:  &#8220;Russia C130&#8243; ?  I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s right.  But whatever.</p>
<p>The religious angles of the ongoing saga is very interesting and has not be discussed much.  What&#8217;s missing here is the role (whether active /passive) of Dharmakaya sect.  The sect is pro-Thaksin, obviously.  The acting supreme patriach that Thaksin promoted is said to be sympathizer/protector of the sect.   IIRC, the Dharmakaya abbot is supposed to be defrocked but the matter get shoved onto a backburner or something like that.  There&#8217;s also the group called Yuwasangha (young monks) with a very militant/ anti-PAD website.  There&#8217;s also a large gathering of monks at Sanam Luang that antagonizes the early PAD protest.    Just bits of details that I&#8217;m reminded of, upon reading this article.</p>
<p>All in all, though, I think the religious angles is mostly tactical maneuverings by both sides, to galvanize support/ open new avenues for attack, etc.  Neither side strike me as particularly religious/ spiritual.  I suspect they both didn&#8217;t give a damn about religions.</p>
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		<title>By: Bystander</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/08/13/nation-religion-and-monarchy-in-the-fight-against-thaksin/comment-page-1/#comment-533820</link>
		<dc:creator>Bystander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 01:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=2623#comment-533820</guid>
		<description>Well, I guess then ThaiCrisis can demonstrate the &quot;right&quot; way of doing it by &quot;getting to the point&quot; and put your real name and address there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I guess then ThaiCrisis can demonstrate the &#8220;right&#8221; way of doing it by &#8220;getting to the point&#8221; and put your real name and address there.</p>
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		<title>By: nganadeeleg</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/08/13/nation-religion-and-monarchy-in-the-fight-against-thaksin/comment-page-1/#comment-532729</link>
		<dc:creator>nganadeeleg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 08:32:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=2623#comment-532729</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Leaked sources indicate that Thaksin’s billions have been used by these same people taken out of his domestic bank accouts (at the time frozen)...&lt;/i&gt;

If true, that&#039;s a big story - I look forward to hearing more from Jim or others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Leaked sources indicate that Thaksin’s billions have been used by these same people taken out of his domestic bank accouts (at the time frozen)&#8230;</i></p>
<p>If true, that&#8217;s a big story &#8211; I look forward to hearing more from Jim or others.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Taylor</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/08/13/nation-religion-and-monarchy-in-the-fight-against-thaksin/comment-page-1/#comment-532164</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 23:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=2623#comment-532164</guid>
		<description>Ukrist presents some important points though muchof this already known to many readers. However, there is a postscript that needs to be added for a fairer hearing. Political scientists have been slack on probbing for truths.

A year or so back the junta had requested that Sodhi L. ask Luang Ta Maha Bua for access to the Reserve Funds. This was refused. Sondhi never again returned. Luang Ta may have ben set up in the proceeding two years by Sondhi and his friends who attempted to get close to the revered monk and continue to mis-inform him of political and economic realities. These funds were established with the economic recovery of the nation post-2007 under Thaksin&#039;s management- a fact which critics do not acknowledge. A year after the 2006 coup the coup-makers and friends squandered  massive amount of the nation&#039;s wealth for nice fascist toys and an impressive and extensive propaganda campaign to discredit Thaksin (seemingly effective even today). They used the Sangha as only one means to achieve this rift. Leaked sources indicate that Thaksin&#039;s billions have been used by these same people taken out of his domestic bank accouts (at the time frozen) so Thaksin had to be found guilty at any cost- even changing the law and emplacing judiciary that were anti-Thaksin and pro-Democrat (who were in alliance with the military for their own ambitions). Thaksin therefore has to be found guilty and he must be imprisoned. The outcome has already been determined way back. The 2006 Constitution reflects the desparation of these folk to protect their illegal acts. The real puppet Master is not Thaksin (re-Andrew Walker) but Prem. That is another story and too long to relay here. The coup-makers and friends cannot be touched as long as the 2006 Constitution is not changed. Hence the desparation by these people not to change the Constitution. As it stands PAD are now proposing 70-30 system whereby 70% of lower house are &quot;selected&quot; (by guess who?), while 30% are elected.This is not &quot;democracy&quot; by any stretch of the imagination; neither is the arrogant urban, elite attitude that the peasantry are stupid and don&#039;t know anything. I would argue that they know more about true democracy than PAD.  You have all been duped.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ukrist presents some important points though muchof this already known to many readers. However, there is a postscript that needs to be added for a fairer hearing. Political scientists have been slack on probbing for truths.</p>
<p>A year or so back the junta had requested that Sodhi L. ask Luang Ta Maha Bua for access to the Reserve Funds. This was refused. Sondhi never again returned. Luang Ta may have ben set up in the proceeding two years by Sondhi and his friends who attempted to get close to the revered monk and continue to mis-inform him of political and economic realities. These funds were established with the economic recovery of the nation post-2007 under Thaksin&#8217;s management- a fact which critics do not acknowledge. A year after the 2006 coup the coup-makers and friends squandered  massive amount of the nation&#8217;s wealth for nice fascist toys and an impressive and extensive propaganda campaign to discredit Thaksin (seemingly effective even today). They used the Sangha as only one means to achieve this rift. Leaked sources indicate that Thaksin&#8217;s billions have been used by these same people taken out of his domestic bank accouts (at the time frozen) so Thaksin had to be found guilty at any cost- even changing the law and emplacing judiciary that were anti-Thaksin and pro-Democrat (who were in alliance with the military for their own ambitions). Thaksin therefore has to be found guilty and he must be imprisoned. The outcome has already been determined way back. The 2006 Constitution reflects the desparation of these folk to protect their illegal acts. The real puppet Master is not Thaksin (re-Andrew Walker) but Prem. That is another story and too long to relay here. The coup-makers and friends cannot be touched as long as the 2006 Constitution is not changed. Hence the desparation by these people not to change the Constitution. As it stands PAD are now proposing 70-30 system whereby 70% of lower house are &#8220;selected&#8221; (by guess who?), while 30% are elected.This is not &#8220;democracy&#8221; by any stretch of the imagination; neither is the arrogant urban, elite attitude that the peasantry are stupid and don&#8217;t know anything. I would argue that they know more about true democracy than PAD.  You have all been duped.</p>
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		<title>By: annonomous</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/08/13/nation-religion-and-monarchy-in-the-fight-against-thaksin/comment-page-1/#comment-530219</link>
		<dc:creator>annonomous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 06:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=2623#comment-530219</guid>
		<description>of what i have read so far of the responses , you  kind of get the idea that  the writing was on the proverbial  wall for some time.  of what i have also read of thai history is that coups have been part of the political land scape in thailand for some time. it goes back as far as the early 1930s. And every now and again when things do not go a certain way they should , &quot; hey guess what !! &quot; . Its coup  time. What can the thai people do to stop this ? . You kind of get the impression , not too much.  It all ways seems that who ever gets elected  will run thailand like its there personal piggy bank. Where are the checks and balances ? .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>of what i have read so far of the responses , you  kind of get the idea that  the writing was on the proverbial  wall for some time.  of what i have also read of thai history is that coups have been part of the political land scape in thailand for some time. it goes back as far as the early 1930s. And every now and again when things do not go a certain way they should , &#8221; hey guess what !! &#8221; . Its coup  time. What can the thai people do to stop this ? . You kind of get the impression , not too much.  It all ways seems that who ever gets elected  will run thailand like its there personal piggy bank. Where are the checks and balances ? .</p>
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		<title>By: Observer</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/08/13/nation-religion-and-monarchy-in-the-fight-against-thaksin/comment-page-1/#comment-529035</link>
		<dc:creator>Observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=2623#comment-529035</guid>
		<description>I disagree with the contention that the coup was peaceful. Rolling tanks through towns, like the Thai army did here or the Soviets did in Hungary is an act of violence regardless of the degree of resistance. 

If I walk into a liquor store with a pistol and the clerks just hand me money, it was still not a peaceful transaction.

If Thai people had resisted the military they would have been slaughtered like they were in 1992 – and I was here for both coups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree with the contention that the coup was peaceful. Rolling tanks through towns, like the Thai army did here or the Soviets did in Hungary is an act of violence regardless of the degree of resistance. </p>
<p>If I walk into a liquor store with a pistol and the clerks just hand me money, it was still not a peaceful transaction.</p>
<p>If Thai people had resisted the military they would have been slaughtered like they were in 1992 – and I was here for both coups.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Nostitz</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/08/13/nation-religion-and-monarchy-in-the-fight-against-thaksin/comment-page-1/#comment-528954</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Nostitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=2623#comment-528954</guid>
		<description>&quot;Karmablues&quot;:

This is Oliver Pye&#039;s and Wolfgang&#039;s Schaffer&#039;s research into the PAD - &#039;Anti-Thaksin Movement in Thailand: an Analyses&#039;, which was included into the Special Edition of the Journal for Contemporary Asia.
I honestly do not know why this research was included in the otherwise excellent publication, because there is a far more competent paper on the same topic available.

Pye&#039;s and Schaffer&#039;s research has several factual mistakes, such as simply taking over the numbers presented by PAD and the Nation, without re-checking their validity.
They also overstate the influence of NGO&#039;s and others, and have misinterpreted the Royalist influence (read Winitchakul and Ungpakorn, who both also have different views on these points).

Please compare this research with Michael Nelson&#039;s &#039;People&#039;s Sector Politics in Thailand: Problems of Democracy in Ousting Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra&#039;.

I do find Michael Nelson&#039;s research far more competent, and the facts presented do correspond to what i have found. Also the present position of the PAD as a group has re-confirmed Nelson&#039;s research, and not Pye and Schaffer&#039;s.

Here&#039;s a link to Nelson&#039;s paper:

http://www.cityu.edu.hk/searc/WP87_07_MNelson.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Karmablues&#8221;:</p>
<p>This is Oliver Pye&#8217;s and Wolfgang&#8217;s Schaffer&#8217;s research into the PAD &#8211; &#8216;Anti-Thaksin Movement in Thailand: an Analyses&#8217;, which was included into the Special Edition of the Journal for Contemporary Asia.<br />
I honestly do not know why this research was included in the otherwise excellent publication, because there is a far more competent paper on the same topic available.</p>
<p>Pye&#8217;s and Schaffer&#8217;s research has several factual mistakes, such as simply taking over the numbers presented by PAD and the Nation, without re-checking their validity.<br />
They also overstate the influence of NGO&#8217;s and others, and have misinterpreted the Royalist influence (read Winitchakul and Ungpakorn, who both also have different views on these points).</p>
<p>Please compare this research with Michael Nelson&#8217;s &#8216;People&#8217;s Sector Politics in Thailand: Problems of Democracy in Ousting Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra&#8217;.</p>
<p>I do find Michael Nelson&#8217;s research far more competent, and the facts presented do correspond to what i have found. Also the present position of the PAD as a group has re-confirmed Nelson&#8217;s research, and not Pye and Schaffer&#8217;s.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a link to Nelson&#8217;s paper:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cityu.edu.hk/searc/WP87_07_MNelson.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.cityu.edu.hk/searc/WP87_07_MNelson.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: jonfernquest</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/08/13/nation-religion-and-monarchy-in-the-fight-against-thaksin/comment-page-1/#comment-528943</link>
		<dc:creator>jonfernquest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=2623#comment-528943</guid>
		<description>Detailing the maneuverings of elite and the ideology that they inevitably employ only skims the surface and gets rather tiresome after a while.

How the opinion of different sections of the electorate in Bangkok has changed and evolved with respect to Thaksin over the last eight years would be far more interesting to learn about than elite maneuverings and grudge matches.

Many in Bangkok must be fed up with Thaksin for a variety of reasons.  Because of the barbaric approach he took to solving many problems in the South (Tak Bai, Krue Se) or the &quot;war on drugs.&quot; For concentrating all power in one party and then using it to push people around, e.g. the media. For using divisive politics, clearly a huge division exists between the center and the periphery that needs to be healed. For milking the telecoms industry for everything it was worth (detailed in the &lt;i&gt;Thai capital&lt;/i&gt; paper that the current author co-authored with Chris Baker). The Sondhi protests started escalating exactly when Thaksin sold Shin Corp to Temasek. This was the crucial breaking point. By now, many probably would just like to get rid of him so that Thailand can get rid of street protests and return to some semblance of stability. Continued political conflicts are not good for  investment, business, revenues, or incomes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Detailing the maneuverings of elite and the ideology that they inevitably employ only skims the surface and gets rather tiresome after a while.</p>
<p>How the opinion of different sections of the electorate in Bangkok has changed and evolved with respect to Thaksin over the last eight years would be far more interesting to learn about than elite maneuverings and grudge matches.</p>
<p>Many in Bangkok must be fed up with Thaksin for a variety of reasons.  Because of the barbaric approach he took to solving many problems in the South (Tak Bai, Krue Se) or the &#8220;war on drugs.&#8221; For concentrating all power in one party and then using it to push people around, e.g. the media. For using divisive politics, clearly a huge division exists between the center and the periphery that needs to be healed. For milking the telecoms industry for everything it was worth (detailed in the <i>Thai capital</i> paper that the current author co-authored with Chris Baker). The Sondhi protests started escalating exactly when Thaksin sold Shin Corp to Temasek. This was the crucial breaking point. By now, many probably would just like to get rid of him so that Thailand can get rid of street protests and return to some semblance of stability. Continued political conflicts are not good for  investment, business, revenues, or incomes.</p>
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