If you want to attack PAD and protect Thaksin and his puppet at the very least you ought to quote PAD. Isn’t that the way to go? Or are you going to keep trying to interpret through weak inferences from English sources. It’s like everyone has become a clone of the overwhelmed Dan Rivers who called PAD “elite” but then does a video of how the train station is empty because the train workers are on strike. Or is he saying unionized workers are “elite”. What’s happening is there are statements made in the media or blogs such as this one which are contradictory to what is going on in PAD as we speak.

Attack PAD by studying their FREE STREAMING MEDIA right here:
http://www.manager.co.th/ Left column red button. Don’t just sit there and study ONLY the English media.

You seem to be saying in your recent post that governments should not offer policy choices (roads, railways, bridges, development funds, social welfare etc.) to voters as incentives for them to vote for them.

Ed, you may be in too much of a hurry to be reading my posts carefully.

How is it legal to trade votes in for contracts which benefit certain elders/village headmen or local powerful businesses? In the end the regional elites still benefit from these deals.

That’s how you monopolize a region’s businesses and at the same time intimidate voters to vote a certain way. It’s almost how some missionaries work—you gotta convert to get the fringe benefits of food and water which the incompetant government could not provide. The incompetant gov. being corrupt vote buying admin.

You call this rural development and “social welfare” when I’m talking about private businesses teamed up with politicians to secure an area.

Two different things.

A social project by Thaksin comes to mind Baan or Ban Ua-Arthorn project. Google it and see how well that scheme worked out.

Populist ideas are fine—if they aren’t corrupt.

But we don’t have to discuss only contracts. You can even pull in drugs into the mix. Read “Drugs for Votes” http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/topstories.php?id=124480 (sorry it’s a PPP example–my bad)

Ed How would that be organised so that there was no competition on policy? .

There should be competition—but the competition gets destroyed if politicians are always going to favor certain contractors over the other. It’s localized “special interests” disenfranchizing voters from choosing what they want.

firstly thanks very much for your nice comments

I think the main point here is that while everyone carries on about vote buying, its the policies, such as decentralisation of contracts and work into a region that is probably much more important in determining votes…..

so, a party that has attractive policies can leave the vote buyers in their dust…. and I think thats what has happened in Thailand…. the PAD and the traditional power brokers are just slow learners and dont know how to live in the new Thailand…

maybe the traditional politicians actually spent more money that the TRT and PPP but still lost! no wonder they are upset

I don’t know about pre-election polling in very rural far flung places. I’ve never read of pre-election poll stats taken in those areas although I assume if one were to research this someone has to simply ask the local abbot at the temple who he thinks his lay followers would choosel.

Just wanted to add to your list: non-cash vote buying. I found it fascinating that very very cheap gifts can be handed out sort of like tickets to claim a cash amount later on after the elections are done with and the box removed. Then how is one to appraise the gift/item and at the same time find where they claim the cash?

I know that sounds weird but coming up with an average amount to buy one vote is hard because there is local skimming by village elders so you can imagine if the village elder gets a budget to sway the vote he may end up keeping a good portion. If a villager decides to provide info on the amount he received—how is an investigator supposed to determine the original large sum given to the village headman?

It’s certainly hard to get hard numbers on “vote buying”.

The issue is vote buying may be too specific a term.

Vote swaying is more like it. You don’t have to hand out cash as people walk away from the box. In fact cash may be too obvious. Vote buyins has evolved and become very sophisticated. Take into account that at the local level, strongmen have jobs and angle for contracts.

You don’t transfer money into an account. That’s so passe! You give contract jobs in construction or other form of employment. Keep the contract coming, keep the villagers, who are your employees working. That’s the sad part. Some people need it to survive.

All is well.

Oh dear, I just convinced myself vote buying is okay and if I can’t find cashed check stubs or money transfer records it doesn’t exist on a very large scale.

One other element in vote swaying (not unique to Thailand) is Thaksin and “Buddhism”.

Thaksin have tapped into the Dhammakaya elite. What Dhammakaya is in Pathum Thani (well their main complex but they have 2?branches in the USA).

Do you think that Dhammakaya’s several thousand strong supporters if swayed by their abbot, Dhammachayo, to vote for the PPP or its future incarnations has any influence? Thaksin made $$$ donations to the temple.

Yes ofcourse this happens in the USA too where the GOP’s strategy has always been to use the church to do their promo.

I go for voting by all the Thai people every time instead of the corrupt few raping the country as usual

I think the PPP elite count for more than a “few”. You forgot to count Thaksin’s overseas associates who are also in on the game.

I’d like to see more voter education. Have you all noticed the LACK of voter reading material distributed in the rural areas? That’s another key issue—education. Elections are decided in rural karaoke bars, temples, factories and everything is done VERBALLY.

If our average voter wanted to study the facts–he or she has very little to study (other than the roadside billboard). If flyers are made how many are actually distributed?

David have you heard about Samak’s national referendum idea?

It should work out well since Thaksin sold Man-City shares (or the whole team I can’t recall at all). If Thaksin’s bank account is happy, he wins again. Just watch.

does anyone know if anyone has tried to do the numbers on vote buying?

I wrote down some ideas on how to structure a reearch project:

Vote Buying
========
-check any pre-election polling
-seats in contention
-swinging voter identification
-party/politician competition
-how many votes could be bought (at 400B per vote?)?
-what was the winning margin in each electorate?
-estimate how many votes that would actually need to be bought on one side?
-what if both/multiple sides were buying votes, needing additional funding to achieve a given result?
-voter success in accepting money and not changing their actual vote (secret ballot)
-what evidence is there?
-what is the total amount of vote-buying that is proven?
-how much is not proven?
-are there plausible reasons why this money has not been traced?
-are there any conclusions that have been published by election observers about the Thai election practices?
-is there a conclusion, vote-buying is/is not a significant factor in Thai “free and fair” elections?
…….
very simplistically
a friend of mine suggested that perhaps 100M Baht could be spent
so, dividing by 400B per vote gives 250,000 votes max influenced
about 40M voters, margin 2M?
not enough money

so my conclusion is that its a beatup:

buying votes – I dont believe made a significant difference to the
election results (its the policies stupid…. through 4 democratic elections in a row!

compare this with the PAD offer
some corrupt rich people “nominating” the members of parliament for their own benefit?

I go for voting by all the Thai people every time instead of the corrupt few raping the country as usual

as someone said, the losers in elections always have ego issues, its a
measure of civilisation how they control it

Sometimes I overestimate people on NM. I thought this was a place to voice ideas/opinions (with evidence) or to guide people to educational resources. Not a place to poke fun of usernames. After all, like in other public forums you have pretenders hiding behind false identities all the time. Even people who talk to themselves and support their own posts under another id. It happens and I’m sure we’ve met them!

Jim an example of the bullshit generated against Thaksin
bullshit Thaksin can’t seem to dispel with evidence.

It’s not just Thaksin—it’s also the DAMAPONG FAMILY which needs to be examined closely.

The courts were in his pocket, otherwise he would not be allowed to tour the world on a “vacation” from politics. Come on, we gave him a headstart and he still has his passport.

This thread was about the PAD strategy and attempts to understand it but it evolved into how Thaksin is a poor, poor victim in all of this and the fall back to the issue regarding PAD and the military. The thing is when it comes to political ideas, rarely anything is “new” under the sun. Some American parties try to emulate their predecessors and even borrow ideas from across party lines. If Ed is being sincere then PAD needs better ideas.

Ed there is little evidence of the mass vote-buying they claimed for the December election

Ed you may want to take this issue to the courts Thailand’s Election Commission has ruled that the governing People’s Power Party commited electoral fraud in December polls and should be dissolved.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hG71oGl1LokvZphtDQZzL44nzc3QD92UCSF80

Sondhi’s mistake was to even discuss his new politics and should have kept it simple to just pointing out the obvious rather than confusing people.

1) Samak is a puppet (even few Thaksin supporters here can deny this).

2) Thaksin still plays politics and will continue to still be involved
“The news agency added that PPP members have already registered a new political party, which is expected to be housed in a building owned by Thaksin.”
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/09/02/thailand.protests/?iref=mpstoryview

Shouldn’t you all be cheering that Thaksin has turned into a political hydra. Thaksin will be with Thailand for a long time.

3) Thaksin is interfering in the judicial system
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.cambodia/2008-06/msg00592.html
If he wasn’t such a stingy man and gave 5 million instead of 2—there would be no problem (^_^). It was such a petty little case compared to the matter forever swept under the rug google “Thaksin extrajudicial killings”. PAD should have nailed him on this count.

Funny how some democracy loving westerners overlook HUMAN RIGHTS.

In closing Ed a vested interest group of thugs who what to regain some vestige of the past when the military rule . You can say the same of Thaksin.

Thaksin has classmates and associates in the police and military–I’m more concerned with a pro-Thaksin coup against Samak. Thaksin’s thugs are well armed and have leaders who are proud to appear in the media such as : ขวัญชัย ไพรพนา . Look him up….

Further, an example of the bullshit generated against Thaksin and the TRT can be seen by exposing the influential political scientist Chai-Anan Samudavanija a key drafter of the illict 2007 Constitution.
This is from the independent Thai e-news web site. It was Chai-anan who behind Article 7 to appoint a PM outside of the election process and who collected a petition of ninety-five gullible (at the time) academics to present to the king. The king refused. This led to the coup. During the current PPP Government he started again the rumour about the Finland rebellion group intent on bringing the monarchy down and replacing it with a Republican system. This was a spin of huge proportions implicating Thaksin a couple of years back. Chai-anan works for Sondhi Lim and writes for his Manager publication- another opportunity for fiction spin. He supports the 70:30 clause and says that Thailand should not be a nation of full democracy but go backwards to the ancien regime dominated by the kharatchakan (government officials) system. He recently told Thai folk not to worry if there is another coup and to ignore what outsiders say (after all -look at the Philippines or Indonesia!)
Before the election there was a rumour that the military were going to field a political party and- guess what? -Chai-anan was the man who wanted to be the military’s prima donna. According to this article he has even greater personal ambitions (see thaienews@googlegroups.com). They run exposé of these people regularly.

PAD’s idea of a new political system simplified in English.

Sometimes it’s better to stick to exactly what is said by PAD rather than try to derive or interpret what is said.

While I understand Ed Norton’s concerns there is also a flipside to their ideas. Nothing can really stop vote buying and we can assume it will continue—the appointed representatives from various labor related groups could still look out for the interest of their constituents.

An example would be that many farmers for instance are influenced to vote a certain way which may end up hurting their interests, however their union leader can still maintain the right to vote in the exact opposite direction.

In this case the farmer has his/her choice and yet still exert pressure on their occupational representative if they choose to.

I’m noticing that many people would rather oppose PAD than realize the possibility of a clean and more efficient government.

But maybe I have missed the point.