I am extremely busy the last week, so please excuse me if i have not read any of the debate other than my name coming up in your comment.
Propensity of violence – the situation is insane, both sides have murder in their eyes.
Yet – yesterday it was only PAD who fired shots, not UDD.
3 UDD guys got killed, and several also injured by gunfire. Shell casings were found at a place that was held by the PAD during the clashes, that was on the opposite side of the road, where i ducked. I believe that i have seen PAD fighters firing guns, but i am not 100% sure.
Later, when PAD sent probing parties into the small side sois, shots were fired as well at UDD fighters from those sois.
Nirmal Gosh also heard bullets whizzing past him, clearly from the PAD camp.

Nobody knows what is going to happen tonight. If there is a new round of fighting, things might easily escalate. The only hope i am having now is that somehow both sides can be persuaded to back down, and not just one side. That also means that without a PAD withdrawal from Government House, there will be no chance for peace.

It seems to me that where they go, violence seems to follow.

To me it does not seem like the PAD has the same propensity to violence as does the UDD/DAAD.

Is the difference due to the respective leaders of each group (doubtful in Sondhi’s case), or due to the type of supporter each group attracts?

With foreboding shall we all greet tomorrow’s morning because both the PAD and Samak’s government will ‘NOT BACK DOWN’. And heaven forbid the ‘showdown’ because neither side won’t back down! But knowing the intransigence of Chamlong-Sondhi and the pugnacity of Samak, I get sick that the outcome could be worse than my direst fears.

Political lessons learned from revered authors (of names long forgotten) dictate a reasoned conclusion that Samak Sundaravej will be within his constitutional authority and duty to protect the Office of the Thai Prime Minister (and related government ministries) by all means, including force, if necessary. The PAD had gravely overreached , the PAD and their leaders had deliberately broken the nation’s laws and had defied the Thai constitution with their current protests.

But tomorrow or the next when blood starts being spilled on the streets, and, the protesters are gassed and violently struck with police truncheons TO ENFORCE THE LAW I will be feeling an angry despair that the lawless protesters had failed, and, the victorious Samak Sundaravej will continue to sit, rightfully, as Prime Minister of Thailand.

It seems the same old issues have been around for years and will be around for quite some time to come, so I dont see why they need to bring it all to a head this week.

Give Samak a chance to govern – if he has not taken the right lesson from this weeks events then there will be other (more appropriate) times to resume the protests.

btw, since when did addressing legitimate concerns have to mean disenfranchising Isaan and the North?

For PAD to demand a legitimate government to resign is impossible, however, if for withdrawn the constitution amendmend for say 2 years in exchange for the PAD to stop protest and PAD leaders turn themselves in. That could be a starter deal each can bring to negotiation table.
If the PAD willing to attend the table, that is…

Somehow, that is non sequitur. The mob has clearly lost its legitimacy, but future minority opinions that respect the law and don’t play this dangerous game (after all that is what it is) still have the same voice.

P.S. Here is an example of a slick operator: Sondhi L. And here is an example of manipulated masses: PAD crowds. Yep, so let’s disenfranchise all of Isaan and the North and allow only Bangkok, Kanchanaburi, and the South a vote.

There is no need for me to comment on what it would mean if PAD has a complete victory, but would a complete victory by Samak/PPP be the best outcome?

The stakes are so high now, that such a victory would basically say the government only needs to win elections – there is no need to be concerned with minority viewpoints – as long as the majority vote for us we can do what do what we like!

In most western countries we can live with election outcomes because there are functioning checks and balances to overcome the tyranny of the majority, but we all have seen how those checks and balances are continually manipulated in Thailand
(by all sides).

Also in most western democracies, we know the majority of the voters have a reasonable standard of education, and know that if the government acts badly, firstly the checks and balances will keep them under control, and if that fails the people will – at the next election.

(That’s the theory anyway, although lets wait until the next US election result to see if it still works that way, or has western democracy evolved to something else again?)

In Thailand, it has not even reached the ‘in theory’ stage because the level of education of the masses is relatively low, and they are also relatively poor.
Lets leave whose fault that is to another post, but IMO that leaves too much opportunity for slick operators to manipulate the masses.

Whether they are hoodwinked, seduced or co-erced becomes irrelevant, and all that counts is who won the election, and without functioning checks and balances that becomes bad democracy.

So whilst I would hate to see PAD have a complete victory, I think it is in the best interests of Thai democracy that Samak/PPP at least be seen to be acknowlegding and addressing the legitimate concerns of the PAD rank & file, at the same time as they dismiss and ridicule the more outlandish claims of some of the PAD leadership.

I like your argument.

Wonder what the intellectuals and media would say if the poor farmers from the North and Isaan decided, hey, we are going to go take over The Manager, The Nation, Chamlong’s leadership school in Kanchanaburi, ThaiPBS, the faculty offices at the universities, the offices of the corporations that are financing these mobs to stand up to the fact they are being disenfranchised by proto-fascists once again.

After all, they would just be exercising their right to protest just like the PAD.