New Mandala

59 responses so far ↓

• 1 nganadeeleg // Sep 2, 2008 at 11:04 am

  Nick: There are conflicting reports and everything is blurred at the moment, but it is hard to escape the fact that whenever the Reds get involved, violence is not far away.

  It’s a pity they cannot exercise more control, or they might just fall into a PAD trap (and I’m not talking about a war battle)

• 2 Jotman // Sep 2, 2008 at 11:36 am

  My round-up of early-morning reports out of Bangkok, including a video:

  http://jotman.blogspot.com/2008/09/mobs-police-clash-in-bangkok.html

• 3 rookie // Sep 2, 2008 at 11:45 am

  When PAD members with yellow shirts stormed NBT and Govt House, some people don’t consider these as violent actions ? Some people conveniently condone these illegal acts. Anyway, three cheers to Samak for declaring a state of emergency. Please arrest these nine PAD leaders quickly.

• 4 rawingwong phonpiak // Sep 2, 2008 at 1:02 pm

  Second the motion by Rookie.

• 5 nganadeeleg // Sep 2, 2008 at 2:28 pm

  Perhaps it was not just the action of Red’s hotheads (who could not control themselves), and was something more orchestrated?

  Just like PAD seems to have backers in higher places, so does the UDD/DAAD, including ‘links’ to the PPP – the final outcome might provide some more insight.

• 6 Nick Nostitz // Sep 2, 2008 at 6:12 pm

  The fighting tonight was awful.
  Additionally to the report by Nirmal i can say that it is confirmed that PAD used guns. There were shell casings found at the space that was occupied by PAD during the clashes. And i have seen them firing a handgun on the opposite site of the road while i was caught in between the groups, ducking at an entrance of the UN building.
  So far, reports are that 3 UDD guys got killed. The country is slowly descending into chaos, and more violence might be coming later.

• 7 kusons // Sep 2, 2008 at 9:25 pm

  The Reds Started It – Don’t Forget! As a person who was in the PAD Government House compound at that point in time, let me give you some facts:

  1. NPK (Ngor Por Kor or whatever their current name is) aka “Reds” as per their flags and scarfs, started out from Sanam Luang (approx 3-4kms) and attacked PAD position at Makawan Bridge area. As nganadeeleg mentioned, it is not clear yet, but what I heard from the PAD stage reported “15,000 strong, with 5,000 armed with knifes and batons, with Taxis with White Flags and 70 or so motorcycles and Police leading the way”, but clear that the Reds Started the Violence.

  2. As it was around midnight and PAD were not in full-power, the news came to abit of a surprise during the Woodstock-Like-PAD Rock Concert stage of this NPK mobilization. PAD leaders sent PAD strong-men to be deployed to the defense positions; PAD protestors (mostly women in their 45-60 year olds ) were told not to be afraid. However, 15 minutes or so later during the tense minutes even though singing rock songs through the teeth [that tense!], Chamlong came to the stage and asked for 300 PAD strong men to reinforce the Makawan Bridge Defenses- which Chamlong led the rally point himself. [I was going to join, but in the process - and a funny aside- was accused of being a NPK spy most likely based on my stature but that's another story] It was quite nerving at the moment.

  3. Some good news came about as the PAD Defenses did repel the NPK attack. I wasn’t there but heard from Friends on the phone that shots were fired (and heard later on TV PAD person admitting it on self-defense, a separate discussion) and to “get the hell out of there” but could not abandon the older woman in the area. Nevertheless, I think with the well prepped defences, at most 101 days trained strong-men/guards, against the mercenery, just-arrived thugs (PPP need to save money, since its 500THB up to 1,000 THB per day they are spending to buy these thugs). PAD did not continue to crush the repelled NPK (heard that Chamlong said defense, not offense).

  4. Woodstock-style PAD-style Rock Concert protest continued on in the night, in a much lighter air and jovial mood, with the older ladies pepped up – much different from during the clash moments. Later on the stage and all the way to morning, PAD leaders proclaimed 2 PPP leaders in the area — and most likely linked the NPK to PPP — which could bring PPP down.

  I stop here, but just to give you the perspective of whats happening. PAD however controversial they may do, are good people; In fact, during midnight, we did some Buddhist prayers to give Merit to all the advsersaries (Thaksin, Samak, NPK, etc)- merit that they get to realize the wrongdoings and churn out something good. PAD doctors claimed on stage they are bringing the NPK injured to help heal — because the NPK people aren’t bad -but used — all by the root cause of it all – Thaksinism, which they seek to rid.

  I hope some of you guys up there also realize, that PAD intent of breaking a door/pushing people to get inside a compound is very different kind of violence of NPK thugs trying to bash PAD with a iron bar (and PAD vice versa in defense).

• 8 matty // Sep 2, 2008 at 11:33 pm

  Other than ‘nganadeeleg’, I have yet to find anyone with a semblance of a possible start of a solution that could bring parties to seriously negotiate between themselves, and, reduce the dangerous tension.

  The Thai parliament was given the opportunity to rise to challenge but had failed (no need to point fingers who or which parties share the most blame) the Nation. Samak’s pompous pugnaciousness plus the PAD leaders’ ridiculous stance combine to create a tragedy in the making .

  The comical caricatures of the players involved add to the surreal dread we all feel about the events unfolding . . . I feel like unleashing a torrent of laugh to ease my own tension . . . but instead myself cursing at everyone responsible for the deadly serious lunacy that unfolds.

• 9 nganadeeleg // Sep 2, 2008 at 11:35 pm

  Kuson: Thanks for the report Kuson – Don’t you think it’s time everyone went home, and allowed a cooling down period for each side to reflect on what is happening?

• 10 Ralph Cramden // Sep 3, 2008 at 1:30 am

  I wonder if kuson considers that he might be a pawn in the PAD leaders’ hands? kuson is getting information only from them. Independent news reports are quite different (here I mean from reporters for international agencies). The pro-government side started it? Forget everything that PAD did (even just in the last week) and you can make such a claim.

• 11 Nick Nostitz // Sep 3, 2008 at 3:11 am

  “kusons”

  I am very sorry – but the bold and uncompromising “The reds started it – Don’t forget!” is the sort of attitude that has made this situation the catastrophe it is. And no, the shooting was not just self defense – because the shooting continued after the main clash in side sois. I know that because i heard the bullets coming out of those dark sois.

  A clear fact is, that regardless who “started it” (and there we have different views, because i don’t see yesterday as the start but an escalation) – a solution has to be found so that Thailand does not get damaged even worse. That generally means a compromise, and not adhering to one side’s demands, especially not of a group that has illegally occupied Government House, attacked a TV station, refused lawfully issued arrest warrants, played every dirty and unconstitutional trick – circumventing a constitution that some of their own backers helped to write – which would not be tolerated in any country i am aware off, and would be classified as treason.

  Instead of standing there as some sort of a fighter for the nation – you should better start finding a solution – because the solution offered by PAD is obviously not working and acceptable to the legally elected government.

• 12 Bob // Sep 3, 2008 at 3:39 am

  “BUT THEY STARTED IT!” How childish.

  Bleh. Give me a break, both sides.

  The Government should be using teargas and batons to restore law and order. PAD leaders should be arrested and the UDD should go home.

• 13 karmablues // Sep 3, 2008 at 5:00 am

  kuson, some people appearing on a TV news program tonight have speculated that the armed pro-government thugs were sent into “PAD Land” to provoke violence so that Samak can announce the Emergency Decree.

  As for the PPP – NPK link, I think it’s always been obvious. Their leaders who go on stage to speak have included PPP MPs, eg. Krung Srivilai and gov-related persons, eg. Uthai Saegkaew, younger brother of Deputy Transport Minister.

  As for PPP MP presence during the attack, the Nation has reported that Surathin Phimarnmekhin, PPP MP from Udon (this province again?!?), was at the scene and got head injury and treated with two stitches. His secretary denied that he was there to lead the pro-government group into PAD and explained that he was merely there to visit his constituents who had traveled from Udon. (personally, I wonder why visit so late at night/early morning).

  Disturbingly, TV news (can’t remember which channel) reported that NPK Leaders have declared that if the army does not remove PAD from gov house by end of tomorrow, NPK will have to do the job themselves. Hopefully it’s just an empty threat, but who knows?

• 14 amberwaves // Sep 3, 2008 at 5:14 am

  re Kuson’s interesting and valuable account:

  I think you have to concede that what is said from the PAD stage is not necessarily what is true.

  Do you really believe this?
  “15,000 strong, with 5,000 armed with knifes and batons, with Taxis with White Flags and 70 or so motorcycles and Police leading the way”

  I don’t know anyone who does – what was the point of saying it from the stage, then? To instill a fighting spirit?

  But is does show a certain sense of fairness — the PAD are as willing to inflate the crowd figures of their adversaries just as they do for themselves, though to a much lesser degree.

• 15 Dog Lover // Sep 3, 2008 at 8:21 am

  Karmablues: “kuson, some people appearing on a TV news program tonight have speculated that the armed pro-government thugs were sent into “PAD Land” to provoke violence so that Samak can announce the Emergency Decree.” We can speculate all kinds of things, but this is an odd speculation indeed. Presumably not from the same speculators who speculated that PAD wanted violence so that there would be a military coup?

• 16 Dog Lover // Sep 3, 2008 at 12:26 pm

  More on kusons belief in PAD. The Bangkok Post now confirms: “The dead man was identified as UDD member Narongsak Krobthaisong, 55, the Narenthorn Emergency Response Centre said.” So why was Suriyasai emotional about the death of a PAD demonstrator? Maybe it was the same PAD demonstrator who was “killed” in Udorn a few weeks ago? PAD leaders are opportunists to the nth degree but the faithful believe anything they fabricate.

• 17 kuson // Sep 3, 2008 at 3:29 pm

  I have to respect some of the comments you have up there. I feel Karmablues has the closest to my understanding of the situation. Here are my comments:

  Amberwaves, Dog Lover:
  I quote Nganadeeleg “There are conflicting reports and everything is blurred at the moment, but it is hard to escape the fact that whenever the Reds get involved, violence is not far away.” That is the reason I put it in quotes, because you don’t get the true picture until after the fact, when investigations are carried out.

  Here’s more insight: “The Reds start at Sanam Luang numbering 15,000 or alot. Most of the non-violent woman in the second lines are ones that are tricked in brought in by having been told they were going to funeral of Yod Rak and disperse before reaching the clash site. Those who reach the clash site number in the thousands”.

  More interesting information for NM readers: [ The Reds are clearly fresh recruiters who are paid by the day. In being paid by the day, the PPP recruiters must minimise cost by deploying them into the intended violence right away. This brings a few advantages to PAD: NPK/UDD (drunks) don't have time to it is easy to blend into the NPK/UDD crowd to get information of their whereabouts; But definitely, it is very hard how big a crowd is; Imagine you're in wembly stadium, you see a crowd, and wonder -- how many people are there in here? Its very hard to count, so estimations can be quite out of the mark ]

  Dog Lover, there is so many information from so many news sources who the dead man is, and perhaps maybe there are more than 1 ? [BTW, I am a Dog Lover too]

  Conclusion: Only when the Dust Settles, do we know the truth. I or PAD leaders can give as much information as the Dust can reveal. What only matters is, after the dust settles, what is the truth.

  Bob: It was quite clear I was talking about the situation “Reports on Last Nights Clash”- at a micro level- which I mean the the UDD (or NPK or the Government Mob) Started this fight by intentionally attacking PAD position.

  Its as clear as daylight – Bob, if you and I were adversaries, and our house were 100 meters apart, and I scream in my house “I’m going to slap you Bob!”, and on my way I scream “I’m going to Slap you bob!”, and in front of your house I scream “I’m going to Slap you bob!”, and give you a good Slapping. Naturally, you should give me a good kicking and you can point as clear as daylight, that I started it and go to the Thai Police if you think they still function.

  I was not talking about at the Macro-Level, where I might say that Thaksin Started it all by all his own corruption doings, and in distinct to other politicians that flee, he continued his struggle to save his rear-end and wasting all our time in Thailand and discussing in New Mandala.

  Nick, I respect you for being in that situation and that facts you have on gun shots. If the shots continued after UDD/NPK retreated, thats a shame on the shooter. [at this point in time, I don't have more information on the shooter, of if anyone died or was injured from the shots] But as in my analogy up there, it doesn’t stop the fact that, UDD/NPK attacked the PAD position, nor did PAD walk all the way to Sanam luang to do the shooting. And nevertheless I share the same condemnation on Going Offensive, especially the UDD/NPK or gunner.

  Ralph: About being a Pawn, I think I am using PAD as a Pawn as opposed as being used (as many silent Thais are using PAD as a Pawn) -I’m using PAD to be my WatchDog of the Government (and hopefully future governments) to protect my and my country’s interests [Don't forget PAD also represents the Poor]. And I feel I have to contribute to PAD, and thus my appearance and try to involve in some of the rallies. And I feel alot of other Thais should contribute the same.
  Conclusion: We (Thais) all use PAD – mostly indirectly. So we should contribute to help them somehow, which is at least support them behind TV.

  Guys, I don’t think anyone in PAD likes sitting in the demonstration compound; It is uncomfortable, hot, sticky. The toilets, until recently, were not available. Taking a bath? I don’t know. They travelled from out of provinces, unlike me who stay overnight and take a comfortable bath at the Pathumwan Princess Sports Club or in the comfort of sitting on some clean, dry, private bathroom at home . So I think their doing at their personal levels to ultimately see the end of Thaksinism, and introduction of a Thai Political Watchdog/Bulldog is a sacrifice that I greatly respect and salute to. And I feel they will continue until the objective is met.

  And for now, I think PAD is the only vehicle that I can use for corrective action to get the Basic Principles Right [Good Versus Evil, Intelligence vs Blind/Bought, Sustainable vs Short Term ], even though Breaking the Law [which seems to really hits NM's nerves].

  The Principles Will Win.

• 18 Nick Nostitz // Sep 3, 2008 at 4:20 pm

  “kuson”:

  Only one thing is wrong with the house analogy – the PAD is not sitting in their house, they have seized a house that never belonged to them in the first place.

  I don’t blame the shooter that much – i blame the ones that have sent him there in the first place.

• 19 kuson // Sep 3, 2008 at 5:20 pm

  “Nick”

  Thanks for the proofread. You are right, I can’t use “my House or Bob’s house” because Sanam Luang does not belong to the Reds as Government House does not belong to PAD. For that, I would like to change from using the word house to “camp” instead, at your point, to correctly describe the situation.

  But that does not change my words that for that event, that: the Reds started the violence that early morning [apparently the Reds are the used people, who never knew each other before, trampled over each other, not rescuing their own fallen, received money, and many tricked into the situation -- quite the PPP tactics to control the North and North East; No wonder PAD do help these poor souls --"uneducated gullibles" - despite their violent doings]. These Reds also intend to do much more, including lay arson to the surrounding area to push push the blame to PAD.

  Nick, I think the people behind the Reds are much more devious than, those that you accuse are “the ones that have sent him there in the first place” (though use of guns is definitely not a PAD policy).

  Lastly, I agree with you. PAD break the Law, and that not good and I’m not going to defend them against that, and I am hoping most of you don’t ONLY dwell on that. But as I said, The Basic Principles are much more important, and Protecting That is what its about.

  Lets lighten up, go see”The Dark Knight”, and you know what I’m talking about!

• 20 amberwaves // Sep 3, 2008 at 5:42 pm

  Interesting again, though it would also be interesting to have you discuss why PAD “guards,” after repelling the mob, chased them down and ganged up on targets who fell, beating and kicking them, in one case to death (and there are several videos showing this, though I don’t know if they are shown on ASTV.)

  >And for now, I think PAD is the only vehicle that I can use for corrective action to get the Basic Principles Right [Good Versus Evil, Intelligence vs Blind/Bought, Sustainable vs Short Term ], even though Breaking the Law [which seems to really hits NM's nerves].

  People who define a struggle as good vs evil tend to be a bit scary in their close-mindedness and what lengths they are willing to go to in support of their struggle. (On a big scale, think Osama bin Laden and George W. Bush.)

  As for Intelligence vs Blind/Bought, you are articulate, but friends who have interviewed a lot of PAD supporters down at Government House have trouble getting people to explain why they are there beyond “Thaksin and Samak are bad, they are immoral, I know because it was on ASTV.”

  They also parrot what they hear from the stage about anyone who does not buy the PAD line hook, line and sinker (e.g., foreign media, Prof. Thitinan). The word that comes to my mind is “sheep,” not intelligence. What you are really doing is defining PAD supporters as intelligent because they are PAD supporters, right? Not a very strong debating point, I’m afraid.

  >Thai Political Watchdog/Bulldog…
  I take it you mean that you support the idea that the legislature should be more an appointed body than an elected one. If that’s what you mean, please say so. If you mean something else, could you elaborate?

• 21 kuson // Sep 3, 2008 at 6:38 pm

  Amberwaves:

  Your Point#1:
  Interesting again, though it would also be interesting to have you discuss why PAD “guards,” after repelling the mob, chased them down and ganged up on targets who fell, beating and kicking them, in one case to death (and there are several videos showing this, though I don’t know if they are shown on ASTV.)

  Details of the Battlefield- it is a battelfield mechanics issue. Why pad guards will continue to beat the living daylights of an opponent is proportional to how much they were beaten at first – emotional factor- so no debate point. [I reccomend you to look at a reference movie: Saving Private Ryan- the GIs who were shot at in Omaha beach broke Geneva Conventions by firing on the Germans even if they surrendered. It was done on emotions, and by conventions not correct]

  Your Point #2: People who define a struggle as good vs evil tend to be a bit scary in their close-mindedness and what lengths they are willing to go to in support of their struggle. (On a big scale, think Osama bin Laden and George W. Bush.)

  As for Intelligence vs Blind/Bought, you are articulate, but friends who have interviewed a lot of PAD supporters down at Government House have trouble getting people to explain why they are there beyond “Thaksin and Samak are bad, they are immoral, I know because it was on ASTV.”

  They also parrot what they hear from the stage about anyone who does not buy the PAD line hook, line and sinker (e.g., foreign media, Prof. Thitinan). The word that comes to my mind is “sheep,” not intelligence. What you are really doing is defining PAD supporters as intelligent because they are PAD supporters, right? Not a very strong debating point, I’m afraid.

  It is scary how you fail to agree with the “PAD Parrots” that “Thaksin (and or Samak) are Dark Side” which are result of already quite intelligible conclusions with evidence.

  I’m quite sure many have been Thaksin supporters before — Including Myself– and listen to the “Reds” radio quite often to understand them, so your point of “PAD being sheep that is close-mindedness and what lengths they are willing to go to in support of their struggle” may not be 100% true. Having been in both camps, understanding each parties motives, is already good enough to be above sheep level which you widely accuse;

  My point is, the Intelligence comes from the search for Truths, the personal convincing of oneself, which I do believe many-most of PADs hold this conviction. (Having said that, however, I need to say that not all people in PAD have equal intelligence as we all in the world. That is why I mention, to simply stick to the Principles of it).

  Your Point#3:
  Thai Political Watchdog/Bulldog…
  I take it you mean that you support the idea that the legislature should be more an appointed body than an elected one. If that’s what you mean, please say so. If you mean something else, could you elaborate?

  Nope, that’s not what I said or meant. That may be Sonthi’s thinking which was on a basis of eradicating Thaksinism should the majority of North and NorthEast people not have fair access to the Truth (which PPP want to keep these people as “sheeps”). If they have fair access to PAD information, I personally believe that this Appointed Body System is not necessary, and the Government, however elected, will be much cleaner than this current government.

  What I meant is with PAD’s as Political Watchdog is, they have (by objective or not) instilled to the people of Thailand to be more active, and to help audit their own government from mischief. In the past, people just voted, and then left the government all the freedom to do things without scrutiny. Because of the PAD phenomenon, people have become more active and looking after their government and bad people will have to think twice before they even think of going into elections. And with this, everyone will win – if this Political Watchdog stays in a more limited role.

  In general I think PAD is the best champion to correct whats wrong in Thai political situation and society at the moment; If you agree with me Thaksin is from the “Dark Side” and his system must be eradicated, My question to you is, do you have any better alternative to PAD? If you don’t agree with me on “Thaksin on the Dark Side”, then lets simply agree to disagree, to save NM debate space.

  Thanks for your comments anyway.

• 22 Nick Nostitz // Sep 3, 2008 at 9:12 pm

  “Kuson”:

  From where is stand right now, i care less and less about principles. I just found out that one of the guys that got killed that night i have joked around with only half an hour before he was beaten to death, while i took photos of his group of friends. That gives me a more than an uncomfortable feeling.

  That night i have seen murder in the eyes of the people of both sides, and that hasn’t yet completely sunk in – at the march of the UDD i have accompanied, and during the clashes.
  It was simply insane. I have most of the time of the heavy fighting duck at an entrance of the UN building where i was caught between the lines when PAD overran the UDD guys. Projectiles flew around, and guns were fired uncomfortably close.
  There was a PAD guy with completely crazed eyes running towards us, his iron bar raised in his hands. I have just held my hands up, and shouted at him repeatedly in Thai that i am a journalist, and after a short while he turned away and kept on chasing the UDD guys.

  A bit later, when the cops have managed to get in between during a lull, the UDD guys have captured a PAD guy, and started stomping him to the ground. Some UDD guards tried to protect him from the onslaught of the crowd. I took first several pics, stopped taking pictires when i realised how serious this was, and then also tried to stop people from the crowd. The UDD guards managed to get him then into one of the waiting Watchila ambulances.

  And this, i fear, is nothing against what may come. So, excuse me please, for me this is not about principles anymore, but how to find a solution so that we won’t see this sort of thing anymore.

  Violence is the way of both camps. Please do not excuse the actions of the side you chose to support. This whole situation is inexcusable, and PAD has a very large part of responsibility, regardless any principle.

• 23 Dog Lover // Sep 3, 2008 at 10:07 pm

  kuson: I admire the tenacity of your beliefs even when so much suggests to me that you are mistaken.

• 24 Bangkok Pundit // Sep 3, 2008 at 10:08 pm

  As for the PPP – NPK link, I think it’s always been obvious. Their leaders who go on stage to speak have included PPP MPs, eg. Krung Srivilai and gov-related persons, eg. Uthai Saegkaew, younger brother of Deputy Transport Minister.

  If Nor Por Kor = PPP, does PAD=Democrats? Democrat MPs have also been speaking on stage at PAD rallies.

• 25 Dog Lover // Sep 3, 2008 at 10:09 pm

  kuson: “In general I think PAD is the best champion to correct whats wrong in Thai political situation and society at the moment”

  You mean their racism, hyper-nationalism, opportunism and anti-democratic politics are the best for Thailand in the current situation.

• 26 karmablues // Sep 4, 2008 at 1:39 am

  Bangkok Pundit, there are also links between PAD and the Dems. I think NM readers know about those links already. However, kuson didn’t know any details about the NPK-PPP links, so I gave some to her.

• 27 amberwaves // Sep 4, 2008 at 2:32 am

  >My question to you is, do you have any better alternative to PAD? If you don’t agree with me on “Thaksin on the Dark Side”, then lets simply agree to disagree, to save NM debate space.

  Well, I agree we should agree to disagree.

  As for an alternative, the answer seems obvious – how about the courts?
  They certainly aren’t part of the Thaksin power structure, and were acting against Thaksin even before the PAD put the pressure on.

• 28 matty // Sep 4, 2008 at 4:54 pm

  “To Samak: When reporters asked you about the dead man, you shot back belligerently: ‘Whose side was he on?’ Your eyes tell all. The heartlessness. The cruelty. When you started dividing even among the dead, we knew we could not let you carry on.” – from BangkokPost Sep5

  Most of you must have surely read this commentary at Bangkok Post, worth deserving a re-read at NM.

  Statemanship is sorely lacking in Thailand’s PM. And lacking that quality almost guarantees that Samak won’t be PM and proxy for Thaksin for much longer.

• 29 sumeth // Sep 4, 2008 at 8:17 pm

  none of this came as surprise to us in Thailand. Samak has been trying to use violence to stop the PAD for weeks but the police and the army would not go along with his plans. So then he always came out to make statements to foreign reporters that he was the one who would not use force… this was simply not true.

  Timeline:

  Last week ending we heard the news that Thaksin was about to sell his football club, and that he had been speaking to PPP again.

  Newin Chidchob flew to London to meet with Thaksin.

  Next day the deal to sell Manchester City FC was signed.

  On the same evening PPP ministers were overheard organizing a mob of paid recruits from the northeast who would be shipped to Bangkok to attack the PAD at government house.

  The mob arrived in Bangkok in rented buses, were fed sufficient alcohol to make them easy to manipulate, armed, and sent to beat up the PAD. The rest is history.

  Samak was so happy when he heard that a PAD member had been killed (it was not until alter that we heard it was one ofd the “reds”).

  The point is this – it is the Samak-led government which is inciting people to violence and even hiring thugs to begin the process. More are being recruited at this very moment, and are on their way to Bangkok.

  Is this democracy? Is this how elected governments normally behave in a civilized society?

  I think not.

  kuson – you have now experienced the dark and violent aspect of Thai society. All of us here are aware of this but somehow, perhaps due to the need for tourist dollars, we take great pains to deny it and hide it from the watching world.

  matty – I have to disagree with you, however much I hope I am wrong, I believe that Samak will not back down, that the army will not be able to maintain its non-involvement much longer, that a bloodbath is coming, and that after all is over, nothing will change, and some new reincarnation of PPP backed by Thaksin Shinawatra will arise like a phoenix from the ashes.

  Pigs just cannot take their snouts out of the trough – in the same way that leopards cannot change their spots.

  Now perhaps you will begin to understand why some people want a change in this electoral system, in which the popular vote can be bought for a couple of dollars a head.

• 30 kusons // Sep 4, 2008 at 9:26 pm

  Nick:your “Culture” Shock; Thanks very much for your details of the accounts; I honestly thought that in being a photo-journalist (professional or hobby), you would have understood the insanity and violence that is associated in a struggle between 2 factions where “foot soldier/ aye-aye Sir” type persons and/or “uncertainty on heavy handedness of the other side” are involved;

  In Thailand we’ve seen it in October 16, Black May where you would not imagine, basing on your own principles, that soldiers would fire onto protesters. Whether it be instilled propoganda (”The Protesters are danger to Our King!”) or Fear (”are those people approaching us going to just shout, or shout and baton, or shout and baton and knife, or shout and baton and knife and gun us?”) and the rest become emotional and chaos.

  Unfortunately this is not a 1st World protest where two sides are white collar people who definitely come unarmed and at most fist fights happen [And thus I think your disappointment in both PAD and NPK/UDD/DAAD].

  Even though the Objective of that night was NPK to clearly beat PAD out of the government house (100% physical intent), and PAD Guards to defend the perimeters and repel the NPK, I do know NPK were defeated and if it weren’t for Chamlong (who led reinforcements to Makkawan Bridge as I was in the Gov House) who stopped counter-attacking since the idea was to defend only. PAD were definitely prepped to know how far NPK was going to go: seeing the Thammasat incident, the Udon Incident, it was natural the preparation was heavy.

  I can perhaps reflect your “Culture Shock” back to say, this is the reason why “Thai Style Democracy” should never be judged by “1st World Democracy”- politicians are different (same faces in 20-30 years, no resignation on scandal), voters are different (not politically active, some fully informed, easy-forget “mai pen rai”, many can be bought) which is very different dynamics overall, and thus I think with PAD in the picture, they augment the media to Watchdog the Politicians, at the same time give information to the Voters and thus breaks the vicious cycle of “bad politicians coming in by vote buying, and then raking up for the next election, loop”, but this is a different discussion altogether on how to break this vicious cycle.

  Despite all this, I go on to say (as PAD has done), to observe minutes of silence for the event and especially the deceased. And on behalf of the ugliness that has happened, I agree with you both have been violent in that specific instance, and sorry for you that you were disappointed that you expected higher principles from both sides. I hope you be extra careful in your next endeavors to give us graphic images of the events.

  And I hope you, like me, can accept that each time there is a bashing between NPK-PAD things will be this ugly – and every Thai in the street is always wary because it has been the norm. And we should condemn these Master Minders

  At the mico-level, this looks like: PAD successfully defeated NPK, and get NPK links . However, the Macro-Level PPP game was to use State of Emergency to get back control; This seemed so similar to Noppadol’s case of Khao Phra Viharn Temple, where at a Micro-Level: Noppadon did something unconstitutional, and was “resigned” kicked out – seemingly PAD victory , where at a Macrolevel PPP game was possibly to sealed Thaksin meaty deals with his corrupt counterpart in Cambodia.

  What I am alluding to is, these planned violences and chess moves are part of a skillful orchestration from Thaksin-PPP, who in my opinion do not give a hoot for the well-being of the people he hired, which as you had said in this thread some comments ago, we should jointly condemn those who “are pulling the strings” at the suffering of the people (maybe from some posh London penthouse somewhere or a shopping at Harrod’s).

• 31 matty // Sep 4, 2008 at 9:27 pm

  (From Sumeth – “I have to disagree with you, however much I hope I am wrong . . . Now perhaps you will begin to understand why some people want a change in this electoral system, in which the popular vote can be bought for a couple of dollars a head.”)

  Change of course is all desirable Sumeth . . . but change must be achieved peacefully and within the accepted decorum of a law-abiding society. Whatever has become of Chamlong Srimuang’s creed of non-violence? If I get the impression that PAD is intent on achieving their version of change (not adequately articulated btw) at all costs, even if much of Bangkok burns in their quest, I am not alone.

  I believe that good courageous people can still effect change by working, resisting and protesting within Thailand’s current political system. In a country where a wide income gap exists, and where educational and occupational opportunities are not equitably shared, Thailand’s democracy, warts-and-all still, continues to develop and be accepted by these very poor people who suffer the most iniquities and view their hope for the future by the power of one-man-one-vote.

  Removing that power from these people because some corrupt ‘elected leader’ in the past had abused the system (other alternatives you could think could just be abused and worse Sumeth!) is neither moral, constructive and progressive.

  Samak Sundaravej I personally believe had corrupted the ideals of Thailand’s democracy by his proxy ways and by his declared agenda to pardon Thaksin Shinawatra via constitutional amendment. But having said that, I will not be mislead by charlatans like Chamlong Srimuang and Sondhi Limthongkul and PAD who will insist that anyone who do not subscribe to their call for total rejection of the current Thai system is neither democractic, moral or good.

  I may be decadent but I will not be regressive.

• 32 kusons // Sep 4, 2008 at 9:37 pm

  Amberwaves Thanks for your reply – and I do agree the Courts are a good alternative. I suspect PAD is sensing the Government’s doing every mischief in every second it can delay the court cases, and thus the need to Stop it in its Tracks by taking action. (like a ‘retreating’ German Panzer stopped by a P51 Mustang in Saving Private Ryan)

  Karmablues, Sumeth Thanks for the information! You guys are definitely on the situation. Karmablues, BTW, I’m a guy

• 33 kusons // Sep 4, 2008 at 10:13 pm

  Sumet: A demon’s thought: maybe no need to change the electoral system, but just beat the PPP Devils in their own game:

  1. Lowest Cost – Make it Mandatory for the Electoral to Swear during the Ballot Box that “To the Holy Beings That I Worship, that I Shall Not Vote for the Party that Buys Votes. If I do, I impose myself for a lifetime of Damnedness”. The uneducated gullibles are very afraid to “Animism, Hinduism, and Spritualism” anyway, and should comply -especially if they believe in “Sa-ban” (Swearing), the same type they swear to when they receive vote buying money. We should now prevent vote buying by up to 50% I believe.

  2. Higher Cost – As alot of PAD do sponsor poor people to education, they can: Sponsor 1 Vote per person to prevent vote buying;
  A. Pay 500THB per head for people to come to read & understand PAD information why Thaksin is not an option — nothing about vote buying. Pay an extra 500THB if they come a Certified Instructor.

  B. Pay 500THB per head, to Vote anyone except PPP or its other virulent strains. Any lawyer can confirm to me that this is legal, to pay someone not to vote for anyone except a party?

  3. High Cost – Get the Government to pay 500THB as a bonus for everyone to show up during elections and Vote. This may make people compelled to vote — at least they get something by voting, but still susceptible for “Rakers” who get both Government and PPP money.

  Each interesting ways can be done alone, or in combination.

  For Democratic Purists, you’d probably want to just not read this Devil’s Advocate/ BatMan Tactics; As per Sumet’s comments, I am just thinking out loud to how to “Least Adjust the Electoral System while putting in a few mechanisms to get the Uneducated Gullibles to Vote without being Bought by the Dark Side Thaksin”.

  I personally believe my #1 is a Low-Cost, High Effectiveness Winner, without the need of expensive costs, and hope someone can put it into the Election Laws.

• 34 Nick Nostitz // Sep 4, 2008 at 10:56 pm

  “kusons”

  I believe you completely misinterpret the situation. Taxin has not organized the Government House siege, that was PAD, and that has escalated the situation beyond the tolerable. In no country of the world this would have been tolerated.
  What we are in now is clearly a long planned and well executed revolution supported by military factions, and whose leaders have a proven distrust of anything resembling democracy. The country is collapsing, and the way i see things developing – that has been part of the strategy.
  Why could possibly one scream “Gu Chart” and at the same time disable with incredible accuracy every single thing that makes a Nation work, and not even try the constitutional avenues that this system allows, by a constitution they themselves helped writing, and not the government?

  Working as a journalist is more than hazardous under those conditions, especially the constant threats of PAD “Naclop Srivichai”. I am not talking about getting in the line of fire – i knew that this might happen.
  I have found the PAD rather hostile to every attempt of journalism, their leaders are not willing to engage in talks, they are only mouthing propaganda, most of it lies, such as the constant warnings of imminent attacks by UDD, and much similar. As a journalist i feel not safe in the PAD camp, and i know that many other journalists, Thai and foreign, have exactly the same view. We do discuss that often.
  Yet, i have never been threatened by UDD. I have been able to hold talks with most of their leaders. I was able to ask critical questions.
  I am never asked there to report from their side, as i always get by PAD.

  About the quality of the present government we may not disagree much. I also do not particularly like this government. But PAD is out to destroy the whole system, and replace it with something the vast majority of Thais will never accept.

  Who started it? In my view it clearly was Sondhi Limthongkul and the PAD. This led to a military coup, and from there only one escalation after the other, mostly driven by PAD, followed by crude and inefficient tactics by a government clearly overwhelmed by this.

  PAD feels attacked because it marched to Government House? Police has attempted to clear this completely illegal occupation, was nearly successful, used minimum amounts of violence (I was there), with court orders, until 30 Senators and Abhisit clearly in cohorts with PAD have subverted the course of the law, and sent this situation into a debacle.
  PAD threats of cutting of electricity and water only added to the Chaos.
  Because that is the only logical explanation i can see for PAD activities – creating maximum amount of Chaos.

  You just wait and see how you will like the “New Thailand” that may arise out of this insanity. I already know that it really scares the Shit out of me.

• 35 Ed Norton // Sep 4, 2008 at 11:22 pm

  I am wondering if the bloggers who state so-called facts (e.g. sumeth) can link their claims to actual evidence that is at least subject to a modicum of checking. Is there much point to wild accusations? We have enough of these from PAD leaders.

• 36 nganadeeleg // Sep 5, 2008 at 9:20 am

  Ed: Perhaps Nick Nostitz can enlighten us regarding some of Sumeth’s assertions in post #29 , particularly the following:
  - PPP involvement with the Red’s
  - use of Rented buses
  - recruitment & payment for services
  - primed with alcohol
  - arms (weapons)

  Much of the other stuff, although plausible, is a combination of some facts, rumours & speculation.

  Kusons: Good to see you are thinking outside the square/circle

• 37 Nick Nostitz // Sep 5, 2008 at 1:29 pm

  “nganadeeleg”:

  Democrats are highly involved with yellows – PPP are highly involved with the reds. But don’t forget – Yellows were formed first – both before the coup, and again after the elections. The initiative is clearly carried by yellow.
  And additionally – there is far more army involvement with yellows – in training of the Naclop Srivichai up to army officers having taken part in the fighting on the streets as well, on the side of the yellows.

  Both sides use rented buses.

  Payment for services is done on both sides, maybe more on the side of the reds. To what extend is very difficult to say. What i can say though, this is not such a simplistic issue, what i feel is more important is that regardless of payment – people taking part on both sides are convinced of their righteousness. From my personal talks feel that yellow is several steps more fanatic though, and far less open to any criticism, and far more hostile to contrarian views.

  Nobody is “primed” with alcohol – most reds are from Isaarn and the North. In those villages alcohol is a culture. If you have ever spent some time in those villages then Lao Khao is drunk every day, is integral part of social life.
  Many yellow fighters are high on Bai Kratom – police pulled in their attempt of clearing the streets of government house a huge sack of Bai Kratom, and displayed it to the media. And this definitely was not planted. The aggression level of yellow fighters is very high, a Nation TV reporter filmed me when i was threatened by a group of Naclop Srivichai for trying to take their photo, i don’t know though if the clip appeared at their website.

  I have been aware of both sides being armed since the first Thammasat meeting of PAD after the elections. PAD brought wooden sticks, the UDD splinter groups rocks (at that time it was only a small group that protested, a not the majority of UDD – and i know for a fact that the main UDD leaders were not even aware of them at the time).
  After the PAD used guns during the street fight, you can expect that if it comes to the next fight – there will be more firearms used by both sides. There are claims that UDD also used guns during the street fight and wounded one PAD fighter, yet all the gunshots i have heard during the fight came from the side the PAD held. Of course i can’t completely exclude these claims, i can only state what i have seen and heard.
  Also afterwards, in the sois, the PAD has shot out of the dark Sois, while UDD has used slingshots. I have been uncomfortably close to that.

  Right now there is a small window of opportunity as the reds have decided to retreat for a while. If there is no retreat from government house under whatever conditions by PAD very soon, and the Southern fighters go back where they came from – i expect that fighting will continue, and then it’s going to be ugly.

  Don’t underestimate the seriousness of the situation.

• 38 nganadeeleg // Sep 5, 2008 at 2:24 pm

  Thanks, Nick.

  Many commentators have said that PAD want violence to break out as it helps their cause, but they do not appear as ready to start it as the Red’s are.

  Whilst the PAD are definitely not non-violent, it does sound like things can be controlled as long as the Red’s stay away.

  Sorry to raise the question, but I wonder if you are being objective regarding the’ involvement’ of the PPP with the Red’s when you compare it to the Democrats with the PAD, because from a distance it does look to me that the involvent of certain elements of the PPP is more hands on than the Democrats.

  btw, Do you honestly think the government has done all it could have to resolve the crisis (non violently)?
  (or is that too political a question for a photo-journalist to answer?)

• 39 Nick Nostitz // Sep 5, 2008 at 4:46 pm

  “nganadeeleg”

  Because very few foreign journalists have spent much time with the UDD before and after the elections, i naturally had to not just take photos ( unpaid, unsold and unpublished at the time, fortunately this has changed now) but also into the political background.

  My personal impression is that the PAD is far more advanced in strategy and tactics, including media spin. The UDD and the government are amateurish against them, and therefore always appear as initiators of violence, crude and primitive. Which they aren’t.

  The PAD is masters in cornering the government. Don’t underestimate this. A while ago i was made aware that for at least three months the PAD has built a nationwide underground network, command structure, and as it appears now – fighting troops as well, with heavy involvement of pro-PAD military factions of both retired and active officers.
  That, in retrospect, could also shine a somewhat different light on the ugly Udon incident.

  The Democrat involvement was rumored for a long time, for me it became absolutely clear how high it is was when Abhisit (and the 30 senators) came to the rescue of the nearly defeated PAD at the day when police nearly managed to clear the streets around Government House (with minimal violence and valid court orders!). This was active collaboration, to give the PAD inside Government House time to restructure, and chase police away from the streets. I would very much like to see both Abhisit and the 30 Senators being charged for this.
  This went way beyond their confines as parliamentarians and senators, to disrupt a court ordered ongoing action by the police.

  Regardless if one likes the Government, or not (and i do not like it) – what the PAD and their backers do has to be defined as an attempted revolution. Their political aims – 30:70 is an attempted overthrow of the constitution and democracy with unconstitutional methods, such as the completely unprecedented ongoing illegal occupation of Government House, the attack on NBT, the closure of several airports, threads and attempts to disrupt vital functions of country and legally elected government. There simply is no law that would permit these actions.

  For now it appears that the government has bought itself some much needed time, but expect a worsening of the situation soon. Because it is obvious that the PAD will not give up before they have achieved their aims, or lost.

• 40 nganadeeleg // Sep 5, 2008 at 7:12 pm

  Nick: I accept the government has had many forces fighting against it, but I still cannot help thinking that they have brought much of the current turmoil upon themselves.
  (Just like Thaksin would probably still be in power if he chose to pay proper & fair taxes)

  I said months ago what PPP should have done was put their proposed draft constitution to parliamentry debate, and then put the final draft to a public referendum.

  If PPP had done that, the PAD would not have a leg to stand on, and even if they had staged this audacious protest, Samak would have been able to justify nipping it in the bud.

  On reflection, I think PPP have been so hamstrung because deep down they know they have not been doing the right thing, and therefore could not justify decisive action to quell the protest.

  I still do not think it is too late to start doing things right!
  (hint, hint to any PPP power brokers who may be reading this )

  No doubt the PAD would not be satisfied (they never are), but if PPP had developed and explained a more consultative process, publicised what they have done to accommodate genuine concerns, get court approval for removal of the protesters, announce a final deadline with warning to disperse for your own safety etc, then they would have been well justified (in fact compelled as a good/competent government) to go ahead with the dispersal in a compassionate way

  The 6 months delay EC referendum dealay is not really that bad – all PPP has to do is agree now that they will consult regarding the constitutional amendments and propose a new ‘peoples’ constitution – sounds good and keeps everyone happy, whilst they will still probably get what they want in the end anyway!

  Referendums can take place later, but they would have done enough to diffuse the standoff, and force the PAD to go home.

  PS. Sorry to regurgitate parts of what I have already written over at Bangkok Pundits site, but I have not had time to start again or put it up on my ‘blog’ page.

• 41 kusons // Sep 5, 2008 at 7:16 pm

  Nick: I think you’re panicking that PAD is bringing down the country. I think PAD is more Principled, than Thaksin, PPP, Samak, Government combined. That’s my personal feel.

  PAD tactics intentionally would be that South Korea used once successfully , where to get their Government to resign, everyone – white collar, blue collar etc. stopped work. The government resigned after a few days, and that was it. Its a psychological game that can bring the country down, but PAD betting Samak won’t go that far; However, as the Unstatesman Samak won’t back down you can see that PAD has backed down in turning off the water and internet gateways etc. So, not as much chaos as you think, Nick?

  Taxin has not organized the Government House siege, that was PAD,…

  Who started it? In my view it clearly was Sondhi Limthongkul and the PAD. This led to a military coup, and from there only one escalation after the other, mostly driven by PAD, followed by crude and inefficient tactics by a government clearly overwhelmed by this.

  But PAD is out to destroy the whole system, and replace it with something the vast majority of Thais will never accept.
  

  I should rewind way back to early 1990s when Mr. Toxin was foreign minister. My sister was working in a project there and word was, he was doing business deals during this Official Trips. While he wasn’t known then, and that isn’t death-sentence violation, but it is not hard for him, with his brilliant mind, corrupt way of business, to advance in his career path to the Monster he is currently now.

  FYI, Mr. Toxin preceded PAD, as A comes before B,C,D,E and F In the matter of fact, PAD came up as a response to Toxin’s Mischievous Deeds, so if you can’t see who began this this is another reason we’d better agree to disagree.

  SCENARIO: Lets just say, without PAD, this Government that you don’t like will continue its Bulldozing Monstrousity UnOpposed, and while you’ll have a good time getting to talk and having pleasant interviews, enjoying the peace with your expatriate salary, good fitness clubs, Thai smiles, etc, the people suffering are the Thais — and NOT middle class and upper class Thais like me who can afford to stay apathetic if we want, but the Poorer Thais who belive their PPP goverment is doing some Sustainable Policies of Giving Out Money for them to buy Mobile Phones and Motorbikes and Pickup Trucks (Read: 3 year shelf life), happy enough to be poorer and poorer, while the government Sells off Their Country and rake in Ugly Money. The Thai Government will spend the money on building some budget Expensive Parliament (50% goes to who?), while spending much lesser to keep the People Dumbed Down.

  And don’t think all people who currently suppport PAD support the 70-30 government Sonthi is proposing either.

  OTHERS
  I have found the PAD rather hostile to every attempt of journalism, their leaders are not willing to engage in talks…i know that many other journalists, Thai and foreign, have exactly the same view

  IMHO: Nothing wrong with you Nick, but the reason why PAD probably suspects foreign media is the same reason why you and probably most Western-Ideal-Democracy persons blanket impose on the situation that is unique as in Thailand [this thread covered in my above discussion and elsewhere in NM], and present it ugly. So quite normal if they are belligerent, knowing you might blindly impose Western Standards, like Filling up a Car with Benzine Engine with Diesel Fuel.

  Both sides use rented buses.

  IMHO: PAD Buses come from PAD provinces throughout Thailand, who join the protest. NPK buses, come to carry out the commando missions to beat down pad (buses paid by the day I suspect)

  Payment for services is done on both sides, maybe more on the side of the reds…. From my personal talks feel that yellow is several steps more fanatic though, and far less open to any criticism, and far more hostile to contrarian views.

  IMHO: Reference to PAD’s suspicion to you Nick (Journalists) [hey -listen, when In the Government House I was suspected on being a spy as well but I cleared myself; They are very attentive for spies and from you here, journalists]; Also, it is so expected that the “Reds” (who many are tricked into coming to Bkk, or bought) should be “agreeable people” because they don’t want to Change the government (aside many being clueless), whereas “Yellows” (who are quite tired from attending the Marathon 100+ days dispute, having to break laws, having to fend themselves against “Red Hitmen” when outside the PAD areas) are quite knowledgable about what they want already, and are there to Change the government! So its quite so easy to predict that Nick.

  Most reds are from Isaarn and the North. In those villages alcohol is a culture
  Many yellow fighters are high on Bai Kratom
  

  IMHO: Alchohol is like “Free Beer on the House” in Western Pubs, and designed to be an incentive to bring in the crowds (”Guys! Come to Bangkok! You get 500-1000THB, and guess what — FREE ALCOHOL! Hooray!”); I’m not sure about the Kratom, but know from another PAD that it gives a drug effect of “happiness” but non-narcotic, popular in the south.

  Despite all our differences, perhaps what we can agree are these future scenarios:

  CASE 1) NO PAD:If you want PAD to disperse and use the Normal Corrupt PPP + their willingness to do Corrupt ways to win, then we may be seeing this government for 4 years, Constitution is Patched by Majority Governemnt, Thaksin probably coming back on the 3rd year. I’m not sure you’ll be happy with this, but alot of Western People will probably be Proud that Thailand is a Western Democratic Country, but Thailand in deep s**t. [Just look at PPP party. Look at Samak. Look at Chalerm. Look at Jakrapob. Look at their "Unsustainable Policies". Look what they can do at the expense of common good]

  CASE 2) PAD LIMITED: PAD disperses, but pressure the government to let the Courts cleanly continue to pursue and * somehow * prevent the Government from Changing the Constitution, which is Highly Unlikely, then we may *just* get by with PPP dissolution, and Thaksin still in “Exile”. This option still allows PPP to return, and Thaksin find a comeback, without any solidarity movement to uproot Thaksinism. I’m quite sure you’ll be happy this, Western People still Proud that Thailand is Western Democratic Country, but Thailand problems (PPP+Thaksinism) aren’t solved.

  CASE 3) PAD ACTIVE: PAD continues to prevent government from clowning around to save Toxins A**, prevent change of constitution. PAD backs down when the Solitary Samak “doesn’t care country going to chaos, I want my seat”. PAD ensures PPP, Thaksin prosecuted -THE ROOT CAUSE OF 10+ YEARS OF PAIN. PAD then either does the (70:30 -which I’m personally not in favor nor I think the Democrats will accept ) OR Educates the North+NorthEast before the elections and we get a cleaner government, where possibly Democrats get over 50% of the majority. With PAD as Watchdog, we should have a much cleaner government.

  Which one will you — or anyone of us–choose , or do you have other opinions about future scenarios that should work (Please label them Case 4, Case 5, etc.)? Or are you simply packing? (ref your “Don’t underestimate the seriousness of the situation.“)

• 42 Ed Norton // Sep 5, 2008 at 10:31 pm

  Thanks Nick. Useful insights indeed. And it is most useful for me that kusons keeps writing his long defenses of PAD and their tactics and proposals. Confirms my negative views of this group and its supporters.

• 43 amberwaves // Sep 5, 2008 at 11:28 pm

  >(from nganadeeleg) btw, Do you honestly think the government has done all it could have to resolve the crisis (non violently)?

  Since the PAD hasn’t made a single conciliatory gesture, refuses to make any unless Samak resigns and violently resists arrest and police orders, what do you have in mind?

  Please, this is not a particularly imaginative government, help them out!

• 44 Nick Nostitz // Sep 6, 2008 at 12:41 am

  “nganadeeleg”, “OTHERS”:

  I am sorry, i can’t afford to engage in long term future speculation of imaginary scenarios. Working this mess on the ground means that every single day the scenario completely changes, and the outcome is absolutely open, with momentarily advantages for PAD due to their expert tactics done by covert warfare specialists.
  What you see is not what is going on.

  Not just me, the foreign journalist, is threatened regularly – Thai journalists work under much worse conditions there. It does not mean that all PAD people threaten us, i have met of course many well meaning people, and many people that have had serious thought of pulling out because there are several things that do not sit right with them.
  The most common complaints of those people:

  1: the behavior of the Naclop Srivichai
  2: the attack on NBT
  3: the occupation of government house
  4: the 70:30 “new politics”
  5: the Preah Vihear issue

  But discussion inside PAD is not encouraged, the ideology is prescribed by the leadership. Who does not follow is seen as a supporter of the government – eg. the enemy.

  East different than the west – that is the same old argument that has been used by both right and left wing autocrats of the region for a very long time to excuse their dictatorships. Often this argument is senselessly repeated by many that have never been even in the west, or have a very myopic view of both cultures – usually through their Cartier glasses.

  Cultural exchange between East and west goes way back into the stone age, there is no basic difference between the dreams of freedom and self realization, unless suppressed by a catastrophic education system.
  Many of the unwashed masses may not have great education certificates, but their life experience often outweighs the one of our proud middle classes here. During the last 20 years many villagers have worked extensive periods in foreign countries, have married foreigners, and have seen what more advanced countries offer their citizens. It is my experience that there is an increasing knowledge under those sectors of society of what they don’t have, and what they should get.
  PAD, and who stands behind them, is in their way. Thaksin/TRT/PPP may not be the most ideal bringers of such goods, but they do reflect the aspirations of those sectors that vote for them. As long as no other party is speaking to them – they have no other choice than voting for those.

  Instead of supporting PAD illegal and unconstitutional tactics – parties such as the Democrats should get their goddamn shit together, and start competing on a democratic plateau. Which until today they still haven’t.

  And that is what is destroying Thailand, not some fuzzy PAD conspiracy theories connected to Thaksin the evil one to excuse one’s own completely illegal, outrageous and intolerable strategies that pull Thailand into maybe the most critical situation it has been since it turned into a modern nation state.

• 45 kusons // Sep 6, 2008 at 5:21 am

  Guys a clarification for any offense I may have made:

  I quote myself “You and probably most Western-Ideal-Democracy persons blanket impose on the situation that is unique as in Thailand”. This may probably offends many to most of Western Readers here, but let me explain where I’m coming from:

  I was educated in an international school in Thailand, and later a Thai University; I do not despise Western-Ideal-Democracy. In fact, I think it is the best form of Government, as long as the population is ready for it- which they are. Most Western 1st World People are educated , and educated enough that if there were any protests, you wouldn’t see people with steel bars, knives and guns facing one another.

  Thailand is different. And as everyone saw, both NPK, PAD were and in some cases had to be armed even if they knew better [if you understand the mechanics of Nuclear Arms buildup in your neighbor, you'd probably wont stay still]. The food is different. The culture is different. The understanding of Human Rights is different. Education level is different. The number of poor is different.

  What I am saying is, it is unfair to put Western-Ideal-Democracy and judge Thailand by, because it is very different. And now is an even special case, when we have Corrupt Characters with Corrupt Values have infiltrated a “seemingly rightful Elected Government”. Thailand is in a very sick stage, and in my opinion, PAD is the only medicine that is strong enough to have effect on Sick Thailand. If we wait another 4 years, let alone 1 year, Cancer Will Take over and it will be too late.

  I agree with every single one of you that what PAD are doing is not correct as per a democracy should be. But like “Martial Law” provisions, I really believe this is a special case.

  Again, sorry if I offended any Westerner on the abovementioned regard.

• 46 nganadeeleg // Sep 6, 2008 at 9:35 am

  Amberwaves: Please, this is not a particularly imaginative government, help them out!

  For at least a week now I have been posting here and and at Bangkok Pundits site as well as at Absolutely Bangkok.com (as Hobby), and even posted a few suggestions here: http://www.nganadeeleg.blogspot.com

  My basic argument has been that we all know the PAD has been unreasonable, but they are not the ones in power, so I have turned my attention to whether the government has been reasonable.

  Some think merely being elected makes the government reasonable, however I think they could have done more to be seen to be reasonable (without giving in to unreasonable demands).

  Had they done that (basically all they had to do was be more consultative on the constitutional amendment issue), then they would have been well justified in nipping in the bud the PAD ‘inundation’ of government house, and things would not have been allowed to escalate to the brink.

• 47 nganadeeleg // Sep 6, 2008 at 9:45 am

  Nick said: “Instead of supporting PAD illegal and unconstitutional tactics – parties such as the Democrats should get their goddamn shit together, and start competing on a democratic plateau. Which until today they still haven’t.”

  I don’t recall there being really that much difference in the policies each party took to the last election.

  I am wondering how else they can compete – the masses don’t seem overly concerned with integrity or even statesmanship.

  It seems to me like they have to go into the provinces and build a network from the ground up – that will not be easy, and in many cases could be life threatening – it’s a lot easier to just buy the existing networks!

• 48 Nick Nostitz // Sep 6, 2008 at 3:05 pm

  “nganadeeleg”:

  You said:

  “I don’t recall there being really that much difference in the policies each party took to the last election.”

  That basically only underlines my point – Democrats in the last elections thought copying with slight variations long standing TRT/PPP policies is enough to convince rural voters to vote or them.
  They still don’t understand – people are not stupid. They have seen that this was just a copy, and do not trust the Democrats.
  TRT/PPP have also over the years built a very strong basis in their main areas, where local party members are in regular contact with the electorate.

  The Democrats have not yet developed their own elaborate policies that set them apart from TRT/PPP. They may have a countrywide network of party offices, but rarely in contact in villagers.

  “kusons”:

  You said:

  “Again, sorry if I offended any Westerner on the abovementioned regard.”

  The tragedy of your view is that it is not westerners who may feel insulted, which anyhow does not really matter, but that these very common views held under especially Democrat Elites is what the electorate of TRT/PPP is perceiving as highly insulting.

  Because it is them that demand western style democracy (or better – a more egalitarian society which i believe is neither western nor eastern), and they find these aspirations reflected by TRT/PPP. And most of them are fully aware that TRT/PPP may not the most ideal party, but a step towards democracy, while they view the other parties as the same old elites.
  I can only repeat – these people are not stupid, and they are not as easily duped as many imagine.

  Economically dominating sectors of Thai society have often not the slightest idea about the way of life, the aspirations, and the perception of their fellow Thais who live in economically more repressed situations in the northern and northeastern villages, and in the industrial suburbs where the biggest support for TRT/PPP is.

  I have sat together with UDD guards a day or two after the violence, including with people who have also taken active part in the Udon attack. I had suprising discussions with them, very open, and very educating. Most there did not point out the basic differences between west and east, but looked at the situation more as a question of development. The discussions were very reflective, and they were also very self reflective about their own actions.

  I wish that there would be a possibility of a forum where people of your background could meet and discuss on an equal level with these people without all the huge barriers of Thai classism.

  Why can i as a westerner (of upper class background) sit and discuss with these people, sit and discuss with people of your background, but there is hardly any avenue where you Thais can do that yourselves?

  PAD/Democrats think they know what is best for these people – but they do not sit and listen to them, learn what they think and are.

  Simply tragic – now we seem to have moved beyond discussion, and different views are fought out in the streets.

• 49 Srithanonchai // Sep 6, 2008 at 5:10 pm

  #45 “Again, sorry if I offended any Westerner on the abovementioned regard.” >> There is no reason to frame your comment in the farang/Thai mode. In fact, you have offended the many Thais who have been trying to argue against this sort of panhaoon-ness by supposedly educated members of the Thai public that you have expressed so nicely here.

• 50 Sidh S. // Sep 6, 2008 at 8:33 pm

  Very lively debates here!
  Nick#48:
  “I wish that there would be a possibility of a forum where people of your background could meet and discuss on an equal level with these people without all the huge barriers of Thai classism.”

  I have called for that forum since our discussion on the Udon incident – and hence I always pointed the finger at the TRT/PPP government for NOT PROVIDING THAT FORUM in their past 6-7 years IN POWER (and going as far as suppressing press freedom)… I am glad that we now agree on this.

  I also agree with Kusons and nganadeeleg that the PAD phenomenon arose from PMThaksin/TRT extreme excesses. To put it bluntly in Thai terms its “NaDan” to deal with “NaDan” (Thick face Vs Thick face)…

  While I don’t agree with PAD’s attack on NBT or occupation of the Government House, it baffles me that on the night of the 1st, you probably heard the speech first hand from the UDD leadership inciting violence at Sanam Luang and the order to march 2-3KMS to ATTACK PAD at Government House; you probably marched with this crowd, armed and hungry for blood; you were in right in the middle of the melee – yet you ACCUSE the PAD of being the aggressor!!!???

  From my point of view, it is NON OF THE UDD’s business here and let the government, police/military, law courts deal with the PAD. If they want to protest, stay put at Sanam Luang…

• 51 Nick Nostitz // Sep 7, 2008 at 12:42 am

  “Sidh S.”:

  I accuse PAD as being the aggressor because it has committed unconstitutional and illegal actions in order to stage an insurrection and a revolution, with the aim of overthrowing the democratic system embedded in the constitution, and to replace it with their “new politics”.

  With their backers subversion of the legal system at every single step of PAD protests, they have set the stage for this and future anarchic incidents here in Thailand.
  Police has tried to deal with PAD – they were stopped by 30 Senators and Abhisit’s appearance at the scene at a crucial moment of an ongoing court ordered operation.
  The courts have issued warrants against the leaders, yet they hide behind their mob, and police is not allowed to do a thing against this outrage.
  The government is obviously not able anymore to do what every other country would do – declare a state of emergency, disperse the protesters with whatever means necessary, charge the leaders with treason, and get back to business of governing the country.
  Encircle them, what police has tried, starve them, let protesters come out, arrest any Naclop Srivichai and the military personal in the compound, and everybody known in a leading position.

  So we can get to the business of moaning about the government without more people getting killed in the now resulting anarchy.

  The longer the legal system is disabled by high ranking PAD backers, the more of such anarchic attacks will result. Until we find ourselves in a situation that has completely gone out of anybody’s control – and that seems exactly what PAD leaders want.

  There simply was no need to do all this by the PAD. The courts were working even in their favour as the Pojaman conviction has shown. The Samak government is a weak coalition government that nobody would have expected to survive this legislative period.

  If you support the PAD – then you do support a ultra-conservative, ultra-nationalist movement that wants to overthrow democracy by unconstitutional means.

• 52 nganadeeleg // Sep 7, 2008 at 11:18 am

  Nick: As you are a photo-journalist, may I suggest that you stand back and consider whether you are truly impartial in this matter.

  Continuing my quest for constructive proposals, what’s so hard about doing this:

  1. Samak/PPP acknowledge that the constitutional amendment will be put to a new round of consultation to create a new ‘peoples’ constitution.

  2. PAD then can either go home (hopefully), or if they choose to stubbornly stay, they can be forced home.

  That way there are no clear ‘winner take all’ victors, and ultimately the Thai people will be the winners.

  Having learned from the past, all sides can put up their views on the constitution problem areas, argue robustly, try to reach consensus, and if that is not achievable, the remaining contentious issues can be decided by the people.

  Leave the courts to deal with the PAD leaders, Samak, Thaksin & Co (or if that is just too hard ‘politically’ give them all a one off blanket amnesty in the name of reconciliation, and a 10 year political ban to go with it!)

• 53 Nick Nostitz // Sep 7, 2008 at 4:30 pm

  “nganadeeleg”:

  I constantly think about my “impartiality” in this situation.

  One thing to consider – my role as a journalist is within the confines of a Democracy, sort of the fourth estate of a Democracy. Without Democracy – there can be no impartial journalism, there will be no guaranteed rights and freedoms of speech.
  PAD aims to replace Democracy with their “New Politics” – and this is is the same sort of Democracy in name only as, for example, East Germany called itself “German Democratic Republic” but in fact was a Stalinist dictatorship.
  PAD has already proven sufficiently to me, that they have very little respect for impartial journalism, critical questions are not permitted, are discouraged, journalists are threatened regularly at rally sites.

  I am bound by the laws of a democracy. PAD has set itself completely apart, is because of the ongoing illegal and unprecedented occupation of Government House completely outside any constitutional right to demonstrate.

  Furthemore – their actions are already affecting the poorest of the poor already. And that i see as maybe my most important role as an engaged journalist – giving a voice to those sectors that are threatened by exploitation.
  In my wife’s village, the poor can’t find day labor anymore. The quarry in which my wife’s brother works is on strike, and he sits at home – broke. Farmers can’t sell their produce anymore because the mill labors are on strike, and of course therefore they can’t hire harvest labor. Not that most of these workers want to strike, but the Unions ordered it.

  My “impartiality” is within the confines of a democracy, and it does not include a group that is completely outside it, and furthermore, tramples over the rights of the weakest of society.

  Of course, i am very uncomfortable with the resulting almost anarchic actions of pro-government forces – but read me – these are logical reactions to the present situation that were initiated by the decision of the PAD to leave the confines of constitutional resistance to a government they don’t support, including the dismantling of the legal system y their not anymore that shady backers – parts of the army, the Democrat Party, certain members of the Senate, and other social conservative forces.

  I would have no professional problem with PAD camping in, let’s say, Lumphini Park, and staging from there regular marches. I might not like their aims, but that would be within their constitutional right. But that they have left behind the day they started at Makhawan Bridge, the moment they have built an countrywide underground network with the aim to topple the democratic system.

• 54 kusons // Sep 8, 2008 at 1:04 am

  Nick: As you are a photo-journalist, may I suggest that you stand back and consider whether you are truly impartial in this matter.
  I second nganadeeleg on that. Nothing wrong with that Nick,

  I like what Sidh is saying – let the Government Make a Forum!

  Let Thailand have a National Forum where Yellows and Reds can come up and give all the information – Free information [How bad Toxin+PPP have been, How bad PAD have been] and very democratic. Then people are left to decide what they want to choose.

  I bet 1,000,000,000,000,000% that the Democratic Republic of Deutschland (TRT/PPP) will not want their “Reds” to have access to this information, having benefited from Controlled Information they have for the Reds –remember the pushback PAD received at Udon?.

  Yellows always had mainstream Government media, and only when they hit PAD information, they get hooked — they were never imposed to believe in stuff from PAD.

  Ok, lets let the Courts decide . [meanwhile the Academics and Students happily join PAD ... ]

• 55 matty // Sep 8, 2008 at 3:14 am

  Everybody believes they are impartial, journalists and academics particularly, and politicians and generals more specially.

  But everybody seem to agree Thai democracy now needs defending. Thaksin said so, without much conviction because of corruption-extrajudicial killing taint, and Thaksin had a great fall. Thaksin’s nominee Samak Sundaravej also is now saying so . . . and emulating his master Thaksin, Samak Sundaravej also now ludicrously wishes to address and educate the United Nations about the precarious state of Thai democracy (deja vu?). But PAD also believe they too are 70/30 democrats by obstructing mega-corrupts like Thaksin, or his proxy, from completely corrupting Thailand’s political development.

  Now outraged Western journalists/academicians like Nick Nostitz or Andrew Walker believe they know more about how Thailand’s democracy should develop . . . and Thailand was/is already in the right path (of development) even with deeply flaswed Thaksin or his proxy Samak at PM. But by what prescience could you both (Nick and Andrew) claim that the obstruction of Thaksin and his proxy Samak Sundaravej, by rather far-out moralistic pretenders,Chamlong/Sondhi, was Thailand’s unique ‘breakers’ to dangerous politics under the guise of democracy?

  Thaksin’s and Samak’s self-seeking democracy versions are very dangerous, have no doubt about that. When vote-buying, intimidation, thugs (Reds) and deep corruption culture are encouraged (backbone of Thaksin/Samak democracy version), Thailand will rapidly be consumed by the poisons these politicians inflict on the land.

  Chamlong and Sondhi’s PAD will NOT get very far with their ridiculous 70-30 democracy idea. But they have already succeeded with educating the Thais that politicians like Thaksin and Samak, parties like TRT and PPP, when in power endanger the future of Thailand.

  The Thais will now make their own history . . . with or without bloodshed . . . and we all can only bear witness and pass judgement . . .

• 56 nganadeeleg // Sep 8, 2008 at 9:23 am

  Nick: I also posed the question for 3 main reasons:
  1. I understand what you are saying about ‘democracy’ and just thought it might be beneficial for you to take a step back and consider the other view which I would summarise as:
  ‘Democracy’ does not seem to be working too well with the type of politicians elected in Thailand, so lets try to come up with a new system.
  (OK – the model they came up with is wrong, but that does not mean the question was necessarily wrong).

  2. I do not think you adequately addressed Sidh’s:
  While I don’t agree with PAD’s attack on NBT or occupation of the Government House, it baffles me that on the night of the 1st, you probably heard the speech first hand from the UDD leadership inciting violence at Sanam Luang and the order to march 2-3KMS to ATTACK PAD at Government House; you probably marched with this crowd, armed and hungry for blood; you were in right in the middle of the melee – yet you ACCUSE the PAD of being the aggressor!!!???
  From my point of view, it is NON OF THE UDD’s business here and let the government, police/military, law courts deal with the PAD. If they want to protest, stay put at Sanam Luang…

  3. I am increasingly frustrated that very few commentaters (let alone the actual players) are really interested in a solution, and it seems the only thing of importance is victory.

  I am still waiting for my constuctive suggested solutions to be shot down in flames, or better still to be taken on board.

  I will try again, and offer this reasonable solution where PPP are seen to be doing the right thing for the people, not giving in to mob rule, and the country will be better off for it:

  (1). Samak/PPP acknowledge that the constitutional amendment will be put to a new round of consultation to create a new ‘peoples’ constitution.

  (2). PAD then can either go home (hopefully), or if they choose to stubbornly stay, they can be forced home.

  That way there are no clear ‘winner take all’ victors, and ultimately the Thai people will be the winners.

  Having learned from the past, all sides can put up their views on the constitution problem areas, argue robustly, try to reach consensus, and if that is not achievable, the remaining contentious issues can be decided by the people.

  Is that not a way forward?

• 57 amberwaves // Sep 9, 2008 at 4:48 am

  >I will try again, and offer this reasonable solution where PPP are seen to be doing the right thing for the people, not giving in to mob rule, and the country will be better off for it:

  >(1). Samak/PPP acknowledge that the constitutional amendment will be put to a new round of consultation to create a new ‘peoples’ constitution.

  (2). PAD then can either go home (hopefully), or if they choose to stubbornly stay, they can be forced home.
  ——————————————
  Yes, put succinctly like that it is a very good solution. It’s a pity that Samak has neither the wit nor the will nor the inclination to implement it.

  Another matter is how could the PAD be forced home? You are really counting on them leaving voluntarily — Samak should take that bet — but what if… ? Tear gas? State of emergency to mobilize a massive amount of troops to arrest people one by one?

  Though the ball should be in Samak’s court, these are not idle questions.

• 58 nganadeeleg // Sep 9, 2008 at 8:50 am

  Another matter is how could the PAD be forced home?

  Assuming PPP did as above, and PAD did not see the light & did not go home, then the forced dispersal should be put in the hands of the experts.
  (presumably police & military).

  I’m no expert, but I imagine tear gas & water canons, together with large numbers of shielded forces would be needed – but really all Samak would have to do is instuct them to co-ordinate their efforts and to use their best planning to minimise force & casualties, and he will have been seen to have done the right thing (even if it goes wrong!).

• 59 matty // Sep 9, 2008 at 10:36 pm

  Time for the PAD to disperse and go home, following the judicial conviction of Samak Sundaravej for conflict of interest. There is no more point to their continuing the protests . . . and the longer PAD people linger at the Government House, the more imminent the danger of needless violence flaring up.

  After PAD disperses, the PAD leaders should immediatley and peacefully surrender themselves to the police to face charges.

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