This post contains my personal impressions of the “Red Armies”. Over the years, I have concentrated much more on the pro-government forces than the “Yellow People”. I have found, and still find, the “Reds” a far more captivating phenomenon. The general stereotype is that these people are just duped, uneducated villagers, hired thugs, bought by Thaksin, and therefore not worthy of recognition.
In the real world, I find among the “Reds” a far wider political diversity of opinion than found in the anti-government groups. There is no common ideology, and I have seen the constant growth of political awareness in the two years I have been hanging around them. There is constant disagreement on many issues, which, on the one hand, makes them far weaker than the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) in protest tactics. Yet, on the other hand, this is how democracy grows.
As a comparison – when I disagree with members of the PAD about ideology, I often end up in very uncomfortable debates, and have to deal with often completely unreasonable views. One of the most glaring examples occurs when I bring up the fact that nowadays most western journalists are not exactly pro-PAD: the general answer to this point is that Thailand was different, that Thai people can be very happy without western luxuries such as cars, and can simply grow rice. This is usually the answer of urbanites that have not spent a day of their life growing rice or doing one bit of manual labor.
Yet, when disagreeing with the points of the “Reds”, I often experience rather challenging, and very educating, discussions.
I have never been scared or felt intimidated while hanging out and taking photos among the “Reds”. And I have not been asked, as with PAD, to report only from their side and relay just their view points.
The “Reds” in battle on 2 September 2008.
La’or Biathong, 56, and his wife Bunchu. Both came from a village near the provincial town of Korat to the pro-government protest against PAD with 30 relatives and friends. La’or was caught up in the fighting. He said,”I was not armed, I tried to hold back other unarmed protesters, and pull out injured. I came here because i love democracy, and cannot accept that the PAD wants to have only 30% elected, and 70% appointed representatives in the parliament. I wish both sides could forget and make up, because otherwise the country gets destroyed.” La’or was beaten by a group of PAD fighters with clubs: he has fractured both arms, 26 stitches on his scalp and his back is covered by marks from slingshot projectiles.
Chaba Singhaglangpon, elder sister of Narongsak Krobthaisong (56), who was beaten to death by PAD fighters during the street violence of the 2 September 2008, picks up the corpse from Watchila Hospital for transport to a temple where it will be laid out for 7 days.
“Red” guards hold up a newspaper with photos of them in the street violence in the early hours of 2 September 2008 that killed and injured friends. They said, “Then we went with empty hands, we only had machetes, wooden and iron bars, and they had guns. This is not going to happen anymore like this.”
Are the “Reds” paid? I have no idea? Some are definitely being paid, how many, how much – I don’t know. And anyhow, that is not really a point that has ever been of much interest to me because, paid or not, I have found a genuine belief in their cause even in the most uneducated villager, or in the hardest fighter on their side. I have had the opportunity to also have very open conversations with many people from their leadership, an opportunity I was never given by the PAD. With PAD you are there to listen to what they have to say; critical comments are definitely not welcome. And even the most outrageous conspiracies you have to swallow.
Members of the “Udon Lovers” group in Bangkok.
Wanchai Paipanna, founder of the pro-government group “Udon Lovers”, in front of about 30,000 members.
About 1000 members of the “Udon Lovers” gathered at Udon Thani City Hall to welcome former Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej’s cabinet.
Of course the “Reds” are also very much part of Thailand’s patronage networks – there are shady godfathers involved, and there are strategies that are very difficult to reconcile with democratic ideals. Yet, these people are aware of this, and are often uncomfortable with this inevitable fact of life in Thailand. But, generally speaking, most I spoke with do know that this is part of a process of growth that should one day be overcome here – even some of those shady characters themselves said so.
PAD is as much part of this same system, yet I rarely hear similar self-reflective admissions from their side. I only see increasing paranoid fanaticism, clearly steered by the leadership. So, for example, in the PAD camp around Government House, almost every hour there are rumours of impending attacks by groups from the “Reds”, a strategy to keep them always on edge, and in a tight unit: very military-style.
With all its growing pains, I do find among the “Reds” some fascinating social and political development. There are mostly people from the lower classes who are in part of a process of growing political awareness (and more than a few with a very keen sense of politics, and the problems of Thai society); and there are people of the middle classes who are in the process of shaking off typical Thai imprints. Over these last two years I have seen things in constant ideological and political flux. Perhaps never has politics in Thailand captured so many people that have previously never been very involved.
Importantly, ”Red” politicians are approachable for the people, many times I have seen these politicians surrounded by their voters. Some may argue that this is only a strategy to blind people, but I view this as the beginning of real democracy – people want and get representatives they can identify with, they can touch and talk to, feel close to (of course, Samak as a Prime Minister was a bit of an enigma in this motley bunch, as he is not exactly a politician that is easy to get close to in any way).
Government spokesman Nattawut Saikua with some of his many fans.
Eccentric Udon Thani MP Suratin Pimanmekin with a “Red” crowd.
I can’t say where this is going, but it definitely is going somewhere very interesting and will change Thailand profoundly. This the beginning of mass participation in politics where many don’t just follow a prescribed ideology. Compared to this I view the PAD as a group that claims to positively change Thai society, but with the methods of turning the clock back, of being inspired by fear of the unknown, distrust of any democracy where even the villagers get a equal vote, and with the ideals of an idyllic Thailand that has never existed other than in the minds of theorists.











Excellent post Nick! Keep them coming!
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In summary Nick N says of the Reds, in pained phrases of course: ” . . .paid to vote. paid to fight (and terrorize). but nice folks these Reds . . . because Nick N can take pictures and intelligently discuss with them . . .”
Uh uh . . .
But I agree with Nick N only in that the PADs are definitely much worse . . . stubborn opinionated asses . . . all of them.
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Nick has it right…
Come to think of it, the Reds are definitely more intelligent than the Yellows. They can at least think for themselves.
I am very proud to be a Red. This is a beginning of a long fight but I’ll be right by their side.
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Nice post Nick. I appreciate your well-written and honest descriptions of the realities of being a poor Thai citizen trying to have some control over the things affecting their live. My conversations with my Thai friends here in Bangkok, who are mostly motorcycle taxi drivers, guards, food sellers, etc. reveal the same dynamics. Many of these people seem to be struggling with trying to reconcile their traditional thinking patterns, beliefs and habits with newer ideas and new possibilities.
In my experience they may be relatively uneducated but they are not stupid, and they certainly can understand when somebody is trying to disenfranchise them and keep them down. Many of them have a very well developed political understanding. Every person I’ve talked to knows about the 70/30 scam and understands what it means. They resent that their votes were negated by PAD and the military when they did the coup against Thaksin. And they resent that PAD is trying to do it again. They are not happy about any of this, at all. They have expressed to me that they have been patient for a long time with all the anti-democratic activities of the PAD types but that the time is coming when their patience will end.
For their own good (the elites) as well as the rest of the country, I hope and pray the elites back off and accept the inevitable – which is that once people taste freedom and empowerment they will never go back and that therefore the elites will have to learn to live with their “lessers” having a seat at the power table. The elites can choose to either calibrate the rate of change by minimizing and delaying it as long as possible in order to minimize their pain, or they can dig in to try to preserve their power, wealth, perks and status and thereby risk a massive explosion. The choice is theirs at this point.
A great PAD leader said about the poor, “They are dogs. We kick them.” For everyone’s sake I hope he realizes that there about 60,000,000 dogs and only about 5,000,000 kickers.
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Fantastic commentary Nick, all of your photos are very ‘alive’ too.
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Two pictures highlight important problem.
One is that of Kwanchai Paipanna. What is he doing out of jail? This guy unashamedly admitted on TV and radio to leading the violent attack on the PAD supporters in Udon not long back and that he would be ready to use violence to expell any PAD supporters out of the province as long as he is still alive.
This is shows a problem with Thailand, people contiunue to worship criminals like these without question. Same with the PAD supporters who are blindly worshipping Sonthi and Chamlong, both who also should be in jail by now.
The other picture which bothers me is that of Udon MP Surathin. He is basically the mafia godfather type politician. Again why are decent folk cheering these shady mafia types like heroes? Is it for lack of better choice? Are the honest, ethical politicians staying out of politics since don’t want to get hands dirty? Or are these types not having the “eccentric” character or speaking capabilities to entertain crowds and therefore don’t become popular (the TV stars/singers turned politicians never seem to have problem geting MP seats). This points to another problem of Thai society. How we can get people to understand that they need to scrutinize the politicians better.
If massage parlour king Chuwit ever gets elected as governor in Bangkok, I am moving out of the City as a matter of principle. He treats women as merchandize and sells them and is a womanizer who is not ashamed to have photos taken on dates with new faces of teenage looking young ladies time and time again. Please any fellow Bangkokers reading NM, don’t vote for him!!!
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Thai politics is in a mess, the army not responding to the government,Gen.A.. is meddling in politics with his commentaries,he should shut up and do the job that he is supposed to do. the PAD episode will cost dearly in the long run to Thailand., and it already started. They want to change the government, be a political party,but they know they would never win. Who in his right mind would want a 70/30. Amidst all that turmoil the king is silent. I only hope it will be better for all soon.
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“Are the honest, ethical politicians staying out of politics since don’t want to get hands dirty?”
The honest, ethical what?! What a lovely planet they must live on.
Power is power is power and what is the point of being a governor if you cannot take photographs with hot girlies?
I think it is time that we all realised that these idealised middle class ideas of democracy coming out of Bangkok can only work under truly revolutionary circumstances:
I propose to the elites in Bangkok that the city split off from the rest of Thailand and become the “Thirty-percent Democratic Kingdom of Krungthep” banishing everyone who doesn’t conform (remarketing itself as a Singaporean-like trade hub) and then allowing Isan and parts of the north to be forcibly reunited with Laos (they certainly shouldn’t be able to vote about it) and similarly the other smaller regions could be left to ferment or any Suranaree-like revolts be pacified by the larger established states.
We need to acknowledge that the only places where democratic ideals do actually translate into practice are resource rich countries where living conditions are relatively homogenous and where ideas about political philosophy have not been tied to one silly idea about who has the final absolute word about what is right and wrong (as in opposed to resource rich countries where established elites have gained so much wealth and converted this wealth into so much power and influence that the very breath of alternative opinion is sucked out of the air before it can be uttered). For the ideas that the Bangkok middle class have about a puritanical democracy to work, Thailand would essentially have to take on Nordic characteristics – an abundance of resources that everyone wants to buy, a relatively ethnically homogenous (and small) population with a universal minimum living standard who are happy living through weird annual weather extremes and who have so little to do with their lives other than hunt whales and produce silly eighties pop songs that quibbling over free opinions has become an amusing past time.
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“Kaimook”:
you posted:
“This is shows a problem with Thailand, people contiunue to worship criminals like these without question.”
I don’t think that this is entirely right. Indeed, this is very much part of Thailand’s problems. Yet, you will find many voices in the “Reds” that are very critical of the involvement of people like Sae Daeng, and others.
Sometimes it is better to accept Thailand with all its problems, and learn how to go from there, than only having a picture in mind how Thailand should be, and forgetting the now existing Thailand with all its complex problems.
It is a long way to a more egalitarian society – it can’t just be ordered from top down, excluding the disenfranchised sectors of society, it has to develop with the participation of those.
I do accept the existence of these powerful figures, the problems they cause, but also that in this society of patronage they also do fulfill an important social function.
They may be “Mafia”, but the “clean” system of civil service and judiciary follows a similar pattern of patronage of which the small man is generally excluded from, and in need of help has to resort to the system of patronage offered by these “shady” figures, of which he has access to.
What interests me personally most though is the rising political awareness of the small man. Because that is what one day will gradually change the system of patronage, and not screaming by the privileged for “moral” politicians or appointees that represent the system of patronage maybe even more than one or the other industrious godfather.
Anyhow, googling about Surathin, i found following fascinating post in some web board about him, and i hope that i get a chance to ask him in person one day about this, because i am very intrigued(maybe someone here has some more information):
THAI MP FROM UDON THANI JAILED IN PHONTHONG PRISON
Police Lt Colonel Suratin Pimanmekin, former MP Udon Thani (Thailand) was jailed nine years by a Lao court on October 19 2000. The Lao court claims he pleaded guilty to the charge of spying and as their story goes, they also say he was found digging for precious minerals without a license when they arrested him March 28 2000 at a hut behind Vat Tai Airport in Vientiane. The Lao authorities claim to have confiscated two ore detectors, a survey cope and a diary.
Before the Lao court delivered their sentence, the Thai embassy had asked to have a lawyer present, but the judge rejected the request and said it was too short notice. That sounds fair doesn’t it?
I met Suratin Pimanmekin when I was arrested and sent to Phonthong Prison in Vientiane Lao PDR. His cell was next to mine where he shared with five others and he gave me food when I had none. He collected wild lilies from the fish pond inside the Prison grounds and placed them at what we called the Buddha Tree, centre-most in the prison.
As the months went by, we became good friends and I called him ‘Pa’ (Father) while he called me “Look” (daughter) and together we gave each other hope that someday we would go home.
The one thing that matters most in Phonthong Prison is that you survive and without the help of friends, you may not live to see your freedom day. As a former Thai Policeman and an influential one at that, I doubt ‘Pa’ would have been charged with anything less than what he got and surprised he wasn’t charged with more.
I remember Suratin Pimanmekin or as I call him “Pa” and how he always had a piece of food to share even if it was his last. He took care of the ‘Pi Ba’ (crazy people) and taught me to look beyond what I think I see, as what matters, often are the things we see when we look more deeply.
I hope the Thai government will think kindly of ‘Pa’ and not forget him as I remember him daily. I know he will still be helping others in Phonthong Prison to survive. Chok dee Pa.
Kay Danes
Former Political Prisoner (Laos)
Source: Vientiane Times (at Readers Email Section)
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This is something new? What a field-day for a Trotsky-ite on training wheels. How fun! Let’s try to break up the state one more time. Ready, get set, go:
“Thus we find that during the parliamentary period, MPs from Isan were always the most critical of the government, and on many occasions they banded together to demand development funds for their region. We have also seen that of all the regional politicians, leaders from Isan were the most militant and dedicated to the well-being of their constituencies. Thus challenges to “political stability” and “national unity” usually came from Isan.” (Thak Chaloemtiarana (2007) Thailand the politics of despotic paternalism, Cornell Southeast Asian program, page 130)
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A positive sign: the Emergency Decree was lifted an hour and a half ago.
Really good reporting, Nick: balanced, fair, based on the evidence of observation and interviews. Everything you say concurs with discussions I’ve had with my Thai friends, from ordinary working-class people (many of whom are from rural families – ‘reds’), to academics and senior civil servants (almost all PAD).
As you say, the PAD are inflexible. On the other hand, I’ve noticed that the reds do seem to be changing – not that they’re becoming pro-PAD, but they seem to be more willing to engage in self-reflection (they DO quite openly admit that they have been manipulated by local politicians and ‘godfathers’, and that it will have to stop, eventually ) and analysis of social problems (Is this because they finally see a tiny glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel?). On the other hand, the PAD are typically rigid, dogmatic and blinkered. And I also get the impression that PAD have absolutely no willingness to look at the plight of the rural people, let alone compassion for them, or concern for the short- and long-term damage that the prolonged PAD demonstration may be doing to Thailand.
I especially like your final paragraph. Let’s hope the current situation doesn’t lead to further coups, violence, etc. A revolution would probably lead to the same result as a military coup: dictatorship. Whereas a slow and steady (well, probably fairly rocky) movement of mass-participation in social change will eventually lead to the freedom that all (except the greedy) want.
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Just one question to all: If the Reds demand ‘payment first’ before deed, why all the fuss about the ‘virtues’ of the Reds?
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Nick, nice reporting. Spot on.
Kaimook…What’s your problem with people supporting Kwanchai Paipanna when the Sonthi and Chamlong crowd, who according to you aren’t in jail, but “should be”, aren’t? Have you ever been oppressed? Have you ever had to fight for your freedom? The people I know aren’t worshiping those guys without question but in fact have plenty of questions but are grasping for any chance for self-determination (while holding their noses), since the Paipanna’s of the world are there only options. What would you do? Write a blog post and wait for someone else to do what needs to get done?
And since PAD started the violence what’s your problem with others responding in kind? Yeah, violence is terrible. What would you do if someone swings a golf club at your head, occupies the seat of government, literally craps all over it, and says your vote only counts at 30%? Tuck your tail and say “yes boss” or fight for justice and freedom? I think I can guess your answer.
Regarding Chuwit and your threat to leave Bangkok if he’s elected, you have shown your true nature as a weasel. In my country, every four years, the usual Hollywood liberals vow to leave America if a conservative President is elected. Every time I hope they follow through, but they don’t, because they’re weasels. And somehow I know you won’t move out either. I bet there’s a few folks up in Buriram who’d love to connect with you.
Sorry if this comes across as impolite, but I’m rather fed up and sick of how impolite the Thai elites are towards my “un-elite” Thai friends and the vast majority of the people of this country. Frankly, Sondi’s and the “invisible hand’s” 30-70 idea is beyond impolite.
Most Sincerely,
Fufu
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Thanks for the photo’s Nick – an interesting contrast to other ‘reds’ photo’s which are available.
It all sounds promising, but unless they drop the blinkered loyalty to Thaksin they are no better than the PAD.
Also, both sides are happy enought to incite violence, but the ‘reds’ seem to have a greater demonstrated propensity to instigate it.
Lets support the good Thaksin/TRT policies, but how does turning a blind eye to his wrongdoings help things get better?
Blind loyalty is a problem no matter which side it is on.
What’s needed for things to get better is for the people in both the ‘red’ and ‘yellow’ camps to each turn a bit ‘orange’ and be prepared to give consideration and understanding to the concerns of the other side.
Those ‘orange’ folks need to abandon their respective ‘red’ and ‘yellow’ camp leaders, leaving only the unreasonable hardcore believers (nutters or paid lackeys) remaining as a fringe groups which can easily be sidelined due to their unreasonableness->lack of support.
The resolution to this mess has always been relatively simple.
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“nganadeeleg”:
you said:
“It all sounds promising, but unless they drop the blinkered loyalty to Thaksin they are no better than the PAD.”
It would have helped them if the Democrat Party, or any other party, would have developed and communicated policies to them. I can’t blame them for choosing the only party that actually has developed those policies, communicated them, and also went through with those promises.
There is a lot less blind loyalty to Thaksin than you imagine, people there are aware that Thaksin has more than a few faults.
But what can they do when faced with the only other choice a party that now openly supports the PAD, instead of thinking of some sort of policies of their own?
PAD is still sitting in Government House, the leaders can continue to evade their arrest warrants, Sondhi L. can come and go as he pleases, has meetings and safe houses all over Bangkok, because he gets such a high level protection that police can’t do a thing about it.
And you wonder why the more violent parts of the reds start dominating the show? The legal system now is so blatantly partial, the police is not allowed to do their work – so what do you expect?
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Nick, it’s a pity those moderate elements are not more vocal, especially when Thaksin was ruling – if only they or the TRT could have moderated his worst excesses, the ground conditions for a coup would never have arisen, and Thaksin/TRT would most likely still be in power, and the country would not be so divided now.
Ditto for the PAD, most of which clearly want a better outcome for all Thai’s – despite the picture you paint of them.
IMO, an uncompromising PPP with an overriding agenda to restore Thaksin to power is not what the country needs – are the ‘reds’ you know capable of seeing that?
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Nick, as Jim Taylor might be losing steam, here are some questions I tried posting in the coup thread which you might care to address:
Even IF Jim’s version is near the truth, he should be bitter not only at the forces opposed to his party, but also towards his party for its failures, in particular he needs to realistically assess:
1. Would a coup have been possible if Thaksin had not done the Shin corp tax free deal?
2. Would PAD still have any chance of being allowed to remain occupying government house if the PPP coalition government had opened up the constitution amendment to a consultative process with the aim of a new peoples constitution (instead of another one imposed to suit the needs of the current power)?
3. Should a political party put the interests of its benefactor(s) above the interests of the country?
Neither side can legitimately claim the high moral ground – Just because one side is unreasonable (or hopeless?), doesn’t mean the other side has to stoop to the same depths!
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Quote: “Then we went with empty hands, we only had machetes, wooden and iron bars, and they had guns. …”
Empty hands? What did they think they were going to use the machetes for, clearing the jungle?
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Why is it that in discussion groups such as this one – many seems to be hell-bent on trying to win points on how smart I am – I know more than you and my opinion is the only one worth considering because “I know”.
What I know is, that at the end of the day the Thai people will settle their problem in their own way, whether to the satisfaction of outsiders is irrelevent as it is solely their business . In addition, the opinion of non-Thais on what the Thai people should or shouldn’t do is about as useful as t*ts on a bull – why waste time writting pages of pointless analysis on whether the “reds” are better / worse than the “yellows”, PAD is better than PPP etc. – who cares, certainly not the people of Thailand who are the ones directly involved in this current situation.
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I can understand the disgust with Samak, and Thaksin before him, but it is difficult to see why there is no real public focusing around the issue of threats to democracy. Why is it that the “I can’t stand Samak/Thaksin but object to the PAD” crowd so small? (would that be the orange crowd?).
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Artisi’s comments are totally inappropriate and simply wrong. Just one example: “who cares, certainly not the people of Thailand who are the ones directly involved in this current situation.” Every Thai I have spoken to over the past 2 years is vitally interested. Every newspaper in Thai is full of this stuff. The web blogs are, likewise, crammed with discussion of this. The argument that what happens in Thailand only matters to Thais (however defined) is unworthy of further comment.
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Ed Norton, the point being made re; ” who cares, certainly not the people of Thailand who are the ones directly involved in this current situation. ” was implying that the people of Thailand are not interested in advise from outsiders – NOT, they are not interested in their own internal problems.
Further, I too have spoken with and been involved with many Thai people over 6/7 years from family, subsistance farmers, academics, and business people from all levels of society – many of these people will listen to and acknowledge your views should they ask you but I don’t kid myself that what I say will make any difference to the direction of events in Thailand.
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Red good, Yellow bad! I mean, Yellow good, Red bad! My fascist elites whipping the people into a law-defying frenzy are better than yours–more righteous, intelligent, thoughtful, and–wait for it–democratic. My pure-hearted, empty-handed, machete-wielding off-duty motorcycle taxi drivers are more peaceful than yours. Your illegal acts are a despicable affront to democracy; mine are the unavoidable duties of the concerned citizen. My rich, vociferous, well-protected leaders speak to the common man; yours are mere manipulators. My contempt for law, constitutionalism, justice and integrity are mere red herrings cooked up by ungenerous detractors; yours reveal a fundamental hypocrisy. Fortunately, we are united in our love for Nation, King, Religion. What intelligent person can choose sides in this circus?
“I would trade every patriot in the county for one tolerant man”– EB White.
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Trough all the PAD rallies, the downfall of the Thaksin regime and the junta we talked and you always had concise and accurate information on the situation on the ground. Once again you have used your wide knowledge about thailand and the diverse factions that make up it’s society to relay this through your article.
None of us knows how this will end but I truly hope that the poor will not lose what they have managed to gain so far. It is important for a country to measure it’s wealth by the way they treat the poor and infirm. If PAD gets it’s way they will no doubt treat them badly and if that happens Thailand will be morally bankrupt for generations. Our kids, kids will still be trying to dig out of the hole created.
Well done my friend, take care…
Marty
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