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	<title>Comments on: Too long on the privy</title>
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	<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/09/20/too-long-on-the-privy/</link>
	<description>New perspectives on mainland Southeast Asia</description>
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		<title>By: Ed Norton</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/09/20/too-long-on-the-privy/comment-page-1/#comment-561088</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2008 02:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=3047#comment-561088</guid>
		<description>To the &quot;I agree with Surayud&quot; brigade:  you also agree with much of the elite debate in the 1990s over what became the 1997 Constitution. There the idea was to get &quot;good&quot; and perhaps &quot;great&quot; people into parliament via the party list. Look what happened. The simple point is probably that elite attempts to manipulate electoral outcomes is doomed to failure because elections can be unpredictable - those folks out there, the so-called chao ban, don&#039;t think like the elite and tend to want an outcome that suits them.

Of course, this idea of getting the &quot;best people&quot; also assumes that the good and the great don&#039;t manipulate things to suit themselves when in power (no evidence of that in Thailand, right?).

jonfernquest might want to look at who is organising and benefiting from nasty motorcycle taxi riders (and even the motorcycle police) riding up the sidewalks. I think Crutch regularly comments on such things in his Sunday column in the Bkk Post. That might be a source for more comment on this item.

On &quot;Unfortunately, everyone does this because there is literally no land near forest areas with deeds. All of it is forestry department land&quot;: not quite accurate as it depends very much where you are and what you mean by title. For example, in many areas near national parks, land users have tax certificates which allow use of the land. Not a &quot;deed&quot; or a &quot;title&quot;, but a right to continuous use for something like subsistence. I believe you&#039;ll find that this is what Surayud had/has. His wife commented on this in the press. 

The question is whether his house fits the meaning and intent of the use rights granted. I&#039;d have thought that this was unlikely. That plenty of others do this seems true, but what has happened to all those arguments about rule of law and getting someone for even small infractions (such as Samak).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To the &#8220;I agree with Surayud&#8221; brigade:  you also agree with much of the elite debate in the 1990s over what became the 1997 Constitution. There the idea was to get &#8220;good&#8221; and perhaps &#8220;great&#8221; people into parliament via the party list. Look what happened. The simple point is probably that elite attempts to manipulate electoral outcomes is doomed to failure because elections can be unpredictable &#8211; those folks out there, the so-called chao ban, don&#8217;t think like the elite and tend to want an outcome that suits them.</p>
<p>Of course, this idea of getting the &#8220;best people&#8221; also assumes that the good and the great don&#8217;t manipulate things to suit themselves when in power (no evidence of that in Thailand, right?).</p>
<p>jonfernquest might want to look at who is organising and benefiting from nasty motorcycle taxi riders (and even the motorcycle police) riding up the sidewalks. I think Crutch regularly comments on such things in his Sunday column in the Bkk Post. That might be a source for more comment on this item.</p>
<p>On &#8220;Unfortunately, everyone does this because there is literally no land near forest areas with deeds. All of it is forestry department land&#8221;: not quite accurate as it depends very much where you are and what you mean by title. For example, in many areas near national parks, land users have tax certificates which allow use of the land. Not a &#8220;deed&#8221; or a &#8220;title&#8221;, but a right to continuous use for something like subsistence. I believe you&#8217;ll find that this is what Surayud had/has. His wife commented on this in the press. </p>
<p>The question is whether his house fits the meaning and intent of the use rights granted. I&#8217;d have thought that this was unlikely. That plenty of others do this seems true, but what has happened to all those arguments about rule of law and getting someone for even small infractions (such as Samak).</p>
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		<title>By: jonfernquest</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/09/20/too-long-on-the-privy/comment-page-1/#comment-560373</link>
		<dc:creator>jonfernquest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 04:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=3047#comment-560373</guid>
		<description>&quot;I agree with Surayud&quot;

Me too. You have to start somewhere. Conundrum: Need a strong leader (like Thaksin)  who is not using the economy (telecom concession and authority as Prime Minister) to make himself invulnerably rich. Anand fit the bill. Surayud tried to get the &lt;i&gt;chao baan&lt;/i&gt; motorcycle taxis off the sidewalks which they zoom along at expressway speeds and occasionally hit pedestrians who are using them the way they are supposed to be used but &lt;i&gt;ao jai chao baan&lt;/i&gt; is the watchword.

&lt;i&gt;Chao baan&lt;/i&gt; Klong Toey chicken market and &lt;B&gt;vector for avian influenza&lt;/B&gt; (covered in chicken poop, occasionally flooding chicken poop) occupying the only sidewalk to Sirikit subway station in &lt;B&gt;central business district&lt;/B&gt;. &lt;i&gt;Ao jai, ao jai, ao jai....&lt;/i&gt;.  (I&#039;m just reflecting demographically vote-wise inferior middle class opinion here)  Thailand has always accommodated poor people in every way possible. The myth is that Thaksin started this. 

&quot;...forgets his encroachment of the Khao Yai Tieng’s forest reserves for his own house. &quot;

Unfortunately, everyone does this because there is literally no land near forest areas with deeds. All of it is forestry department land. There are vaste swathes of land being farmed around Chiang Rai on this sort of land. Go ask any tuk tuk driver to show you some land for sale and then start inquiring into the deed status. For a smilar area try Khun Kawn waterfall on the old Chiang Mai highway out of Chiang Rai. Once you get to the beautiful point all the houses are luxury villas for the elite. Chao Ban also benefit from these &quot;flexible&quot; rules. Take the new road in back of Mae Sai which was dirt a couple of years ago with a formal government sign saying no squatting. Locals bought plots there for pennies and sold for millions. Welcome to Wild West Thailand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I agree with Surayud&#8221;</p>
<p>Me too. You have to start somewhere. Conundrum: Need a strong leader (like Thaksin)  who is not using the economy (telecom concession and authority as Prime Minister) to make himself invulnerably rich. Anand fit the bill. Surayud tried to get the <i>chao baan</i> motorcycle taxis off the sidewalks which they zoom along at expressway speeds and occasionally hit pedestrians who are using them the way they are supposed to be used but <i>ao jai chao baan</i> is the watchword.</p>
<p><i>Chao baan</i> Klong Toey chicken market and <b>vector for avian influenza</b> (covered in chicken poop, occasionally flooding chicken poop) occupying the only sidewalk to Sirikit subway station in <b>central business district</b>. <i>Ao jai, ao jai, ao jai&#8230;.</i>.  (I&#8217;m just reflecting demographically vote-wise inferior middle class opinion here)  Thailand has always accommodated poor people in every way possible. The myth is that Thaksin started this. </p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;forgets his encroachment of the Khao Yai Tieng’s forest reserves for his own house. &#8221;</p>
<p>Unfortunately, everyone does this because there is literally no land near forest areas with deeds. All of it is forestry department land. There are vaste swathes of land being farmed around Chiang Rai on this sort of land. Go ask any tuk tuk driver to show you some land for sale and then start inquiring into the deed status. For a smilar area try Khun Kawn waterfall on the old Chiang Mai highway out of Chiang Rai. Once you get to the beautiful point all the houses are luxury villas for the elite. Chao Ban also benefit from these &#8220;flexible&#8221; rules. Take the new road in back of Mae Sai which was dirt a couple of years ago with a formal government sign saying no squatting. Locals bought plots there for pennies and sold for millions. Welcome to Wild West Thailand.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaimook</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/09/20/too-long-on-the-privy/comment-page-1/#comment-560175</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaimook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 05:47:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=3047#comment-560175</guid>
		<description>PC Surayud: &quot;if voters could make informed judgements when casting votes, then national and local governments would be run by good and just politicians&quot;

Did a google search on &quot;informed voters&quot; , clicked around a bit, and found surprising information about the Americans. It appears that even American voters are &quot;abysmally uninformed&quot;!

&quot;5 Myths About Those Civic-Minded, Deeply Informed Voters&quot;
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/05/AR2008090502666.html

Academic type material:
&quot;When Ignorance Isn’t Bliss. How Political Ignorance Threatens Democracy&quot;
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa525.pdf

Perhaps, the way towards the solution is for the assumption to be that voters are very likely to make uninformed choices at elections, and how to limit the negative consequences/impacts of such uninformed choices.  

About success of coup.  After the coup we have faces like Chalerm and Chaiya on cabinet seats! There&#039;s even rumor as reported in the papers about Chalerm getting the justice minister portfolio in the upcoming cabinet!! The cabinet during TRT was certainly not as &quot;ugly&quot; as under PPP and was more competent.  So no more coups please!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PC Surayud: &#8220;if voters could make informed judgements when casting votes, then national and local governments would be run by good and just politicians&#8221;</p>
<p>Did a google search on &#8220;informed voters&#8221; , clicked around a bit, and found surprising information about the Americans. It appears that even American voters are &#8220;abysmally uninformed&#8221;!</p>
<p>&#8220;5 Myths About Those Civic-Minded, Deeply Informed Voters&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/05/AR2008090502666.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/05/AR2008090502666.html</a></p>
<p>Academic type material:<br />
&#8220;When Ignorance Isn’t Bliss. How Political Ignorance Threatens Democracy&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa525.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa525.pdf</a></p>
<p>Perhaps, the way towards the solution is for the assumption to be that voters are very likely to make uninformed choices at elections, and how to limit the negative consequences/impacts of such uninformed choices.  </p>
<p>About success of coup.  After the coup we have faces like Chalerm and Chaiya on cabinet seats! There&#8217;s even rumor as reported in the papers about Chalerm getting the justice minister portfolio in the upcoming cabinet!! The cabinet during TRT was certainly not as &#8220;ugly&#8221; as under PPP and was more competent.  So no more coups please!!!</p>
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		<title>By: fall</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/09/20/too-long-on-the-privy/comment-page-1/#comment-560153</link>
		<dc:creator>fall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 03:16:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=3047#comment-560153</guid>
		<description>Name one country where democracy bring &quot;good and just&quot; leader.
And whose standard is &quot;good and just&quot;, does forest encroaching meet the bar?  

Theoretically, since judges are suppose to be &quot;good and just&quot;.
Do we see anyone hail Somchai (former judge)?

If you want &quot;good and just&quot; goes Judiocracy, Democracy bring &quot;popular&quot; leader.  It is not the best, but it  allow those elected to be replace through ballot box.  But Judiocracy, or any appointed MP, will have to be replace by blood on the street...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Name one country where democracy bring &#8220;good and just&#8221; leader.<br />
And whose standard is &#8220;good and just&#8221;, does forest encroaching meet the bar?  </p>
<p>Theoretically, since judges are suppose to be &#8220;good and just&#8221;.<br />
Do we see anyone hail Somchai (former judge)?</p>
<p>If you want &#8220;good and just&#8221; goes Judiocracy, Democracy bring &#8220;popular&#8221; leader.  It is not the best, but it  allow those elected to be replace through ballot box.  But Judiocracy, or any appointed MP, will have to be replace by blood on the street&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: rookie</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/09/20/too-long-on-the-privy/comment-page-1/#comment-560138</link>
		<dc:creator>rookie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=3047#comment-560138</guid>
		<description>It is the case of the pot calling the kettle black. Surayud accused politicians of being corrupt but he conveniently forgets his encroachment of the Khao Yai Tieng&#039;s forest reserves for his own house. 

On the occasion of the second anniv. of the coup yesterday (19 Sept), Gen. Sonthi B was strangely quiet and offered no comments. The reason is quite obvious -- his Four-Step Campaign to get rid of Thaksin and his influence has utterly failed.  Lessons for any ambitious and greedy military officers: if you hate politicians and accuse them of being corrupt, you yourself should not grab the cookies in the jar while you are in power, ok ? I wonder where Saprang, Bannawit, and others are these days ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is the case of the pot calling the kettle black. Surayud accused politicians of being corrupt but he conveniently forgets his encroachment of the Khao Yai Tieng&#8217;s forest reserves for his own house. </p>
<p>On the occasion of the second anniv. of the coup yesterday (19 Sept), Gen. Sonthi B was strangely quiet and offered no comments. The reason is quite obvious &#8212; his Four-Step Campaign to get rid of Thaksin and his influence has utterly failed.  Lessons for any ambitious and greedy military officers: if you hate politicians and accuse them of being corrupt, you yourself should not grab the cookies in the jar while you are in power, ok ? I wonder where Saprang, Bannawit, and others are these days ?</p>
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		<title>By: nganadeeleg</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/09/20/too-long-on-the-privy/comment-page-1/#comment-560131</link>
		<dc:creator>nganadeeleg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 23:59:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=3047#comment-560131</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll try my luck, and see if this comment makes it through.

I agree with Surayud - just take a look at many of the politicians in power locally &amp; nationally - Local mafia connections dont appear to be a hinderance to a political career!

I&#039;ve kept it short &amp; sweet - it&#039;s up to you whether I&#039;ve met the other criteria!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll try my luck, and see if this comment makes it through.</p>
<p>I agree with Surayud &#8211; just take a look at many of the politicians in power locally &amp; nationally &#8211; Local mafia connections dont appear to be a hinderance to a political career!</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve kept it short &amp; sweet &#8211; it&#8217;s up to you whether I&#8217;ve met the other criteria!</p>
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