New Mandala

12 responses so far ↓

• 1 Clean out of magic bullets!? // Oct 8, 2008 at 11:53 am

  How about long strings of 4-letter words? The only real way to express my true feelings about every poo-yai 9regardless of political allegiance) in this country

• 2 Khun Stillwater // Oct 8, 2008 at 1:57 pm

  Four 4 letter words.

  1) LIES

  Tear gas in Bangkok is incredibly effective.
  It has the ability to blow off toes, shred skin and cut off limbs.

  The lie is only tear gas was used to disperse the crowd.
  A crowd which did not attempt to climb the walls of Parliament, and could not lay hands on the gate due to the PAD guards.

  Chew, before you swallow the lies in the mainstream media which continued to play dramas and game shows as the police used dirty bombs on protesters.

  Continue to feast on the lies by those who dare discuss the “pathology of anti-democracy” when such persons have never listened to PAD ideals live, on stage, still streaming right now and to the very end.

  Another four letter word 2) “Kaam” (the Thai pronunciation of karma) for those who murdered Nong Bo (age 28) and those who malign the movement she and her family believe in and will still participate in (based on the words of her mother and father).

  All the false accusations against PAD whether committed in ignorance or for the sake of academic fluff still becomes “Kaam”.

  Some of those who fought alongside the students in the 70s, are with PAD because they are finishing the war which started those years.

  This is the last battle done out of 3) LOVE for their country and motivated by 4) HOPE that there is the possibility of a better tomorrow.

• 3 Srithanonchai // Oct 8, 2008 at 5:41 pm

  “when such persons have never listened to PAD ideals live, on stage”

  Perhaps, those who have indeed listened (with an independent mind) to the ideals by watching speakers on stage, by watching the Video-CDs sold at the place, by reading the PAD’s version of the “Voelkischer Beobachter” (Phuchatkan, or Manager, Sondhi’s propaganda mouthpiece), or watched the endless 24-hrs. tirades of hatred on ASTV, would be even more inclined to vigorously reject the PAD as a threat to the limited democracy Thailand has been able to develop over the past few decades.

• 4 Khun Stillwater // Oct 9, 2008 at 1:10 am

  Sawasdee Srithanonchai,
  This is why I know people here who claim to study the PAD agenda are exaggerating.

  If you indeed view ASTV with your “independent mind” you would know that Sondhi has stopped attending the brain storming sessions for new politics and left it to Khun Piphop.

  You would know this if you do indeed watch ASTV. You don’t have to watch it live, this info is also on manager.

  Sondhi’s “New Politics” is discussed in English here:
  http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/JI09Ae01.html

  I agree about “limited democracy Thailand has been able to develop over the past few decades”. It’s the type of democracy which uses very interesting tear gas against civilians and then accuses a young female victim killed by such devices as carrying a bomb in her purse as she walked alongside her own mother and sister.

• 5 Nick Nostitz // Oct 9, 2008 at 12:13 pm

  I have been very busy the last days, but i hope i can find some time to make a more extensive post with pictures on what i have seen at the 7th of October.
  I have seen Police only using teargas grenades, no “dirty bombs”. They had rubber bullet guns, but i have not seen them using them.
  I do believe the reason that limbs have been torn off is that those grenades were from older Russian manufacture, and not more modern and less lethal ones. Also, when people are tightly packed, the explosive power is naturally higher.
  The problem is with police being badly under budgeted. They did not use so called “excessive” force. I do absolutely believe that it was the right decision to use gas grenades, as it avoided more direct hand to hand confrontation, which would have most definitely cost far more lives.
  From what i have seen, police has used appropriate force, and would have been justified to use much harsher methods.
  It is horrible that people lost their limbs, i have seen several of those injuries. Police did not go out intending to hurt people that way, but they had to use what equipment they have had.

  PAD, as portrayed by their supporters and members, was not peacefully protesting. PAD has used handguns (at one moment bullets shot by PAD were flying around me), they have used iron balls and screws in slingshots (i have a large bruise from one of them on the stomach, resulting from a PAD attempt to attack metropolitan police headquarters at midday). They have also flung their own teargas grenades, and other explosive devices, which i have seen on numerous occasions during that day and night.

  PAD has used cars and lorries trying to overrun police, i have seen several such attempts, which were only stopped by police firing teargas grenades directly at those vehicles. I have photographed one police officer who was over run by such a car, and injured.

  Please do not forget – the law was on that day on the side of police, and not PAD. PAD was, and still is, an armed group whose purpose is escalation, including the use of extreme violence against its opponents. Regardless the picture they and their supporters try to paint.

• 6 Ed Norton // Oct 9, 2008 at 1:05 pm

  I have to say that I do not understand Khun Stillwater’s response to Srithanonchai. “People here [NM?] who claim to study the PAD agenda are exaggerating.” Exaggerating what?

  Then we are told that if we were true students of PAD and objective viewers of ASTV we’d know that Sondhi Lim has “stopped attending the brain storming sessions for new politics…”. But then we are referred to recent comments by the person allegedly uninvolved. What is the point of these comments? Are we being told that Sondhi is no longer folowing this agenda, that he has been sidelined or something else?

  And, in Khun Stillwater’s first post we are told that the “mainstream media” is covering things up? Which mainstream media? I read the Bangkok Post and the Nation pretty regularly and their coverage seems remarkably pro-PAD. What is being hidden?

  That some of those who fought against the military are still with PAD and finishing that fight is an interesting observation. The irony is that these people now stand with PAD alongside those who were trying to kill them in the 1970s and after (e.g. Panlop, who publically states that he killed commies for a living). How has that happened? Who has been converted to which cause?

  No answers I’m afraid, just questions.

• 7 Khun Stillwater // Oct 9, 2008 at 1:13 pm

  Nick Nostitz, thank you for the thoughtful comments and please stay safe in these trying times. Without you we would not have a true eyewitness to these trying times.

  I have seen Police only using teargas grenades, no “dirty bombs”. It would have been amazing for you to see a dirty bomb exploding with the naked eye due to the sheer velocity of debris being flung. You would only see the results of debris shattering nearby walls, people or other objects.

  They had rubber bullet guns, but i have not seen them using them.

  I’m glad you did not witness the use of bullet guns. This is what we have on footage: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TR9swxDq4_Q
  I appreciate the officer who wanted his friend to exercise restraint.

  The problem is with police being badly under budgeted.
  But ofcourse. There is however a difference between being badly under budgeted and skimming by the higher ups. You’d think they’d have more funding given how many kick backs they get for allow drug lords to pander their poison to the people unobstructed (well they provide some obstruction to keep their jobs).

  PAD, as portrayed by their supporters and members, was not peacefully protesting.
  It’s very interesting how an ENTIRE social and political movement is condemned due to the action of the few criminals amongst their midst. Even I don’t accuse all policemen of being corrupt intimidaters who resort to excessive violence due to lack of training.

  PAD and slingshots: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CsVP66OYXus

  They have also flung their own teargas grenades, and other explosive devices, which i have seen on numerous occasions during that day and night.
  I like your usage of “own teargas grenades”. You know alot about PAD it seems. I assume you know without a doubt THEY MADE IT RIGHT? Because you know everything and saw everything.
  On the PAD stage it was stated (with full knowledge they are filmed by undercover cops in the crowd) that some members would throw back tear gas canisters which did not detonate. One PAD member did this and out of his ignorance his hand was blown off. I’m impressed by your eyesight by the way.

  PAD has used cars and lorries trying to overrun police, i have seen several such attempts, which were only stopped by police firing teargas grenades directly at those vehicles. I have photographed one police officer who was over run by such a car, and injured.

  PAD did in fact use cars and lorries to form barricades. I saw the photo of the policeman lying under a car.

  The driver was shot in the eye.

  If you took that photo you would see the windshield penetrated by a small object.

  The driver lost his eye.

  I’m glad he was not driving faster otherwise something worst would have happened.

  Please do not forget – the law was on that day on the side of police, and not PAD.

  The law is and will always be not on the side of the people but on THAKSIN’S SIDE, which is the “democratic” way. Right?

  We will not bother discussing how the police shot tear gas *straight into the crowd and not point the barrel upwards towards the sky and other fascinating images where they demonstrated lack of professionalism. None of that is important when it is directed against a group of people you do not agree with.

  Regardless the picture they and their supporters try to paint.
  I know you mentioned that you are busy now.
  Since you took photos, please post vids or slideshows on youtube or other free hosting site to share.

  There are many photos/vids out there for people to view.

  The issue is Thais are tagging their videos in their language and it’s very annoying to try and search for footage on youtube.

  As a footnote, those here familiar with the student movements of the 70s know the term “agent provocateurs” who infiltrate crowds with arms and explosives. There are lurkers here who know very well that the brutality committed against Thammasat and other Uni. students was possible because some “students” ALSO USED VIOLENCE TOWARDS THE POLICE TO GET THE BALL ROLLING.

  Were they really students? Or were they planted amongst students to spy on the movement and also to emerge at key times?

  I’m surprised that such well-informed folks here don’t know the #1 rule in civilian suppression: JUSTIFY YOUR VIOLENCE BY MAKING THE OTHER SIDE VIOLENT.

  This is the major weakness of PAD. They can’t do profile checks of any schmuck off the street who put on a yellow shirt.

• 8 nganadeeleg // Oct 9, 2008 at 1:44 pm

  Nick: I appreciate your efforts and look forward to your extensive post.

  Please keep it objective (without bias), as we already have more than enough propaganda to sift through.

  Hobby

• 9 Khun Stillwater // Oct 9, 2008 at 2:30 pm

  Ed Norton Exaggerating what?
  Exaggerating that they “study” PAD.

  Then we are told that if we were true students of PAD and objective viewers of ASTV we’d know that Sondhi Lim has “stopped attending the brain storming sessions for new politics…”.

  You don’t have to be a “student” of PAD. That’s not the point of my comment—it is a simple observation of mine that people who “observe” or study PAD know much less than they claim.

  Sondhi has said he stopped attending brain storming sessions for new politics. This was stated on the PAD stage. Khun Piphop is heading that part of PAD. I am stating this because NM can’t keep up with this movement (understandably since we have other responsibilities) and keep discussing Sondhi’s New Politics when anyone who watches PAD knows he is no longer involved with it. I’m trying to inform you [NM] community members.

  And, in Khun Stillwater’s first post we are told that the “mainstream media” is covering things up? Which mainstream media?

  Channels 3,5,7,9 NBT. They didn’t bother to cover even the events of Oct. 7. When they did they went so far as to accuse the man of losing his leg as being a begger who dressed up his wound (his leg was recovered by the way). As stated in my post regular programming continued as police moved to the protest area. I’m sorry I can’t record anything for all you. If you are BKK please just turn on the TV next time (if there is a next time).

  I read the Bangkok Post and the Nation pretty regularly and their coverage seems remarkably pro-PAD. What is being hidden?

  This must be their unbiased coverage: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/topstories.php?id=131190

  “HOstages”? Ed, is this an example of “Pro-PAD” coverage on the Post?

  That some of those who fought against the military are still with PAD and finishing that fight is an interesting observation.

  One example: Therdpoom Chaidee
  Former Communist. He’s one of the 9 with a warrant out for his arrest.

  He is one of MANY amongst PAD. People who have taken to the PAD stage include a woman by the name of “Savitri” (forgot last name) who is famous for singing for the student refugees in the jungle. She was a hardcore student protester. Numerous people who have come on stage have stated their backgrounds very succinctly.

  Another is a female senator(?) Malika Kaewgaw (who was in front of Parliament on Oct 7) and has been with PAD for all these months.

  If I knew you were interested…I’d note their names and try to transliterate them for you. These people are just “representatives”…most of them are union leaders who come on stage briefly to announce they’ve arrived (at the gov. house).

  Some of these people have mentioned their former close acquaintance with a Thai academic abroad (who is anti-PAD but toned down his protective stance for Thaksin).

• 10 Srithanonchai // Oct 9, 2008 at 5:33 pm

  Khun Stillwater:

  What are you rambling about? You seem to be a fanatic PAD follower (don’t know though whether you subscribe to what Giles had called PAD’s “ultranationalist fanaticism,” maybe, you are only in favor of the “New Politics” part). So, what’s the use arguing with you?

  By the way, I also have a whole pile of Thai-language newspaper articles–mostly from Phuchatkan–on my desk. Partly stupid, partly scary stuff (especially that about a “Thai-style people’s democracy” and the PAD’s vanguard role in this, and articles by chief demagogue Pramote Nakornthap), I would say…

• 11 Ed Norton // Oct 10, 2008 at 12:09 am

  khun stillwater: I disagree with you on Nation and Bangkok Post. Choosing one article tells us nothing. An unbiased reading of the Nation since 2005 shows it as remarkably pro-PAD.

  On the former communists, I did not require names. I know them. My question was this: The irony is that these people now stand with PAD alongside those who were trying to kill them in the 1970s and after (e.g. Panlop, who publicly states that he killed commies for a living). How has that happened? Who has been converted to which cause?

• 12 amberwaves // Oct 10, 2008 at 4:50 am

  Stillwater

  >Some of these people have mentioned their former close acquaintance with a Thai academic abroad (who is anti-PAD but toned down his protective stance for Thaksin).

  It’s pretty clear whom you are talking about. What “protective stance for Thaksin” are you referring to? Please provide some examples. Not hearsay.

  One hopes they will be more convincing than your evidence of anti-PAD media.

  I’m tired of this rubbish that anyone who opposes the PAD is pro-Thaksin.

  Put up or shut up.

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