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	<title>Comments on: PAD, consumed democracy and self-dramatization: A comparative view from Taiwan</title>
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	<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/10/20/pad-consumed-democracy-and-self-dramatization-a-comparative-view-from-taiwan/</link>
	<description>New perspectives on mainland Southeast Asia</description>
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		<title>By: Srithanonchai</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/10/20/pad-consumed-democracy-and-self-dramatization-a-comparative-view-from-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-571372</link>
		<dc:creator>Srithanonchai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=3297#comment-571372</guid>
		<description>&quot;I am appalled at the lack of critical thinking skills exhibited by the supposed upper stratas of Thai society such as doctors, pilots, “scholars”, media editorialists, government and military officials, etc.&quot; &gt;&gt; Exactly!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I am appalled at the lack of critical thinking skills exhibited by the supposed upper stratas of Thai society such as doctors, pilots, “scholars”, media editorialists, government and military officials, etc.&#8221; &gt;&gt; Exactly!</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/10/20/pad-consumed-democracy-and-self-dramatization-a-comparative-view-from-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-570803</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:47:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=3297#comment-570803</guid>
		<description>I appreciated Christian Schafferer&#039;s essay and photos. Since I don&#039;t know anything about Taiwan&#039;s experience with New Democracy I can&#039;t comment on that aspect.  

Regarding doctorJ&#039;s comments, I think the people of Thailand need democracy AND critical thinking skills and wisdom. I am appalled at the lack of critical thinking skills exhibited by the supposed upper stratas of Thai society such as doctors, pilots, &quot;scholars&quot;, media editorialists, government and military officials, etc.  

They consistently display a form of knowledge but one that is without real content. If this is the best this society can do then they are in really bad shape for the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciated Christian Schafferer&#8217;s essay and photos. Since I don&#8217;t know anything about Taiwan&#8217;s experience with New Democracy I can&#8217;t comment on that aspect.  </p>
<p>Regarding doctorJ&#8217;s comments, I think the people of Thailand need democracy AND critical thinking skills and wisdom. I am appalled at the lack of critical thinking skills exhibited by the supposed upper stratas of Thai society such as doctors, pilots, &#8220;scholars&#8221;, media editorialists, government and military officials, etc.  </p>
<p>They consistently display a form of knowledge but one that is without real content. If this is the best this society can do then they are in really bad shape for the future.</p>
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		<title>By: doctorJ</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/10/20/pad-consumed-democracy-and-self-dramatization-a-comparative-view-from-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-570649</link>
		<dc:creator>doctorJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 08:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=3297#comment-570649</guid>
		<description>THIS COMMENT IS ON MY OWN BEHALF AND SELF INTEREST

To me the PAD phenomenon is nothing more than ridiculous stage show by some circus clowns. Trying desparately to draw  as much people as they can to achieve their political goal(which has nothing to do nor benefit the royal monarch). 

But this doesn&#039;t mean Thaksin is not guilty. He also did a lot of damage to this country(there had been alot of comments on this issue already, and not the main point of discussion here).

PAD doesn&#039;t consume democracy, but PAD mislead people, guide them to the wrong direction, the very dangerous direction, to the verge of civil war. Only when people can come to their sense in time, we  may avoid further bloodshed. 

What people in this country need right now is not democracy, but critical thinking, and WISDOM. May God bless them wisdom. May God save them from these wicked CLOWNS!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>THIS COMMENT IS ON MY OWN BEHALF AND SELF INTEREST</p>
<p>To me the PAD phenomenon is nothing more than ridiculous stage show by some circus clowns. Trying desparately to draw  as much people as they can to achieve their political goal(which has nothing to do nor benefit the royal monarch). </p>
<p>But this doesn&#8217;t mean Thaksin is not guilty. He also did a lot of damage to this country(there had been alot of comments on this issue already, and not the main point of discussion here).</p>
<p>PAD doesn&#8217;t consume democracy, but PAD mislead people, guide them to the wrong direction, the very dangerous direction, to the verge of civil war. Only when people can come to their sense in time, we  may avoid further bloodshed. </p>
<p>What people in this country need right now is not democracy, but critical thinking, and WISDOM. May God bless them wisdom. May God save them from these wicked CLOWNS!</p>
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		<title>By: Contributor</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/10/20/pad-consumed-democracy-and-self-dramatization-a-comparative-view-from-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-569836</link>
		<dc:creator>Contributor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:41:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=3297#comment-569836</guid>
		<description>That is one of the best contribution for New Politics in Thailand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is one of the best contribution for New Politics in Thailand.</p>
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		<title>By: jonfernquest</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/10/20/pad-consumed-democracy-and-self-dramatization-a-comparative-view-from-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-569790</link>
		<dc:creator>jonfernquest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:55:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=3297#comment-569790</guid>
		<description>South Korea and Taiwan have already undergone massive economic transition over several decades under non-democratic regimes and cannot reasonably be compared to Thailand. 

Divisive democratic institutions in Thailand over the same period have made it essentially a rudderless ship. 

In economics there is the question of whether an emerging market economy ever musters enough political will to become a prosperous modern economy.

South Korea, Taiwan, and China have been able to do this. Thaksin had the requisite political willpower but the same left-leaning forces pushing for his reinstatement now on grounds of democracy, were exactly the forces working against his push for the economic liberalization of the economy back then.

This is the sort of political schizophrenia exhibited by so many political actors in Thailand that makes the country weak. 

Ultimately, the only way to increase the share of the economic pie for farmers, is to increase the size of the economic pie for everyone in the society, i.e. economic growth.

Unlike South Korea and Taiwan very little research has been done on the political economy of Thailand&#039;s industrialization, for instance of the Eastern Seaboard under the Prem cabinets. Most research is  focus on the agricultural hinterland. Until this work is done how can Thailand be compared to countries that have managed to fully industrialize themselves?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>South Korea and Taiwan have already undergone massive economic transition over several decades under non-democratic regimes and cannot reasonably be compared to Thailand. </p>
<p>Divisive democratic institutions in Thailand over the same period have made it essentially a rudderless ship. </p>
<p>In economics there is the question of whether an emerging market economy ever musters enough political will to become a prosperous modern economy.</p>
<p>South Korea, Taiwan, and China have been able to do this. Thaksin had the requisite political willpower but the same left-leaning forces pushing for his reinstatement now on grounds of democracy, were exactly the forces working against his push for the economic liberalization of the economy back then.</p>
<p>This is the sort of political schizophrenia exhibited by so many political actors in Thailand that makes the country weak. </p>
<p>Ultimately, the only way to increase the share of the economic pie for farmers, is to increase the size of the economic pie for everyone in the society, i.e. economic growth.</p>
<p>Unlike South Korea and Taiwan very little research has been done on the political economy of Thailand&#8217;s industrialization, for instance of the Eastern Seaboard under the Prem cabinets. Most research is  focus on the agricultural hinterland. Until this work is done how can Thailand be compared to countries that have managed to fully industrialize themselves?</p>
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		<title>By: David Reid</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/10/20/pad-consumed-democracy-and-self-dramatization-a-comparative-view-from-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-569630</link>
		<dc:creator>David Reid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 01:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=3297#comment-569630</guid>
		<description>While I agree with this article&#039;s conclusion, the introduction about Taiwan is extremely flawed. I am confused as to what constitutes a &quot;new democratic movement&quot; in Taiwan. Anti-democratic movement might be a better way to describe it as elements of the KMT never accepted the election losses in 2000 and 2004. 

It was not until allegations of corruption associated with President Chen became public in 2006 that anything that could be said to resemble a people&#039;s movement came into being. Even then the red shirt protests were extremely partisan in nature, with the use of a former dissident who had fallen out with the DPP and come into the KMT fold being used to give the protests credibility. 

To call Chen Shui-bian a dictator and liken him to Thaksin is also completely unwarranted. Whatever flaws Chen might have had he  did a lot to promote democracy and the rule of law. Extra-judicial killings and disappearances that happened in Taiwan during the KMT martial law era are now a thing of the past. Whereas in Thailand these things continued to happen during Thaksin&#039;s time. 

To say that corruption became worse during Chen&#039;s presidency is also a false assumption. Instead strengthening of the rule of law meant that senior politicians from both sides of politics were subject to corruption investigations. It is disappointing that the DPP came to power promising to eliminate corruption, but many of its members instead became a part of the corrupt system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree with this article&#8217;s conclusion, the introduction about Taiwan is extremely flawed. I am confused as to what constitutes a &#8220;new democratic movement&#8221; in Taiwan. Anti-democratic movement might be a better way to describe it as elements of the KMT never accepted the election losses in 2000 and 2004. </p>
<p>It was not until allegations of corruption associated with President Chen became public in 2006 that anything that could be said to resemble a people&#8217;s movement came into being. Even then the red shirt protests were extremely partisan in nature, with the use of a former dissident who had fallen out with the DPP and come into the KMT fold being used to give the protests credibility. </p>
<p>To call Chen Shui-bian a dictator and liken him to Thaksin is also completely unwarranted. Whatever flaws Chen might have had he  did a lot to promote democracy and the rule of law. Extra-judicial killings and disappearances that happened in Taiwan during the KMT martial law era are now a thing of the past. Whereas in Thailand these things continued to happen during Thaksin&#8217;s time. </p>
<p>To say that corruption became worse during Chen&#8217;s presidency is also a false assumption. Instead strengthening of the rule of law meant that senior politicians from both sides of politics were subject to corruption investigations. It is disappointing that the DPP came to power promising to eliminate corruption, but many of its members instead became a part of the corrupt system.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Turton</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/10/20/pad-consumed-democracy-and-self-dramatization-a-comparative-view-from-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-569629</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Turton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 01:41:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=3297#comment-569629</guid>
		<description>Excellent work, Christian. I think it would be greatly strengthened, beyond mere comparison, if you went further in showing how the Red Ants in Taipei were more than mere carnival, but out and out fraud. For example, Shih&#039;s connection to a well-known anti-Chen embezzler who lives in China, the fact that his followers later sued him, his close and concealed connections to the KMT -- and of course, the regular appearance of corrupt KMT politicians at the protests. The whole thing was a fraud run by pro-KMT forces and Shih a willing tool. The two protests even have a connection -- Shih met the embezzler in Thailand, and afterwards he went to Thailand to speak on activism. 

Michael Turton
&lt;a href=&quot;http://michaelturton.blogspot.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The View from Taiwan&lt;/a&gt;
PS: Thanks for that time you and the other Christian saved my life in Taichung after the traffic accident. If you hadn&#039;t appeared, I might have received a severe beating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent work, Christian. I think it would be greatly strengthened, beyond mere comparison, if you went further in showing how the Red Ants in Taipei were more than mere carnival, but out and out fraud. For example, Shih&#8217;s connection to a well-known anti-Chen embezzler who lives in China, the fact that his followers later sued him, his close and concealed connections to the KMT &#8212; and of course, the regular appearance of corrupt KMT politicians at the protests. The whole thing was a fraud run by pro-KMT forces and Shih a willing tool. The two protests even have a connection &#8212; Shih met the embezzler in Thailand, and afterwards he went to Thailand to speak on activism. </p>
<p>Michael Turton<br />
<a href="http://michaelturton.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">The View from Taiwan</a><br />
PS: Thanks for that time you and the other Christian saved my life in Taichung after the traffic accident. If you hadn&#8217;t appeared, I might have received a severe beating.</p>
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