New Mandala

25 responses so far ↓

• 1 Bruno // Jan 20, 2009 at 7:11 am

  Do you remember fellow who put grafitti in one ot the SE Country ? Malasia if I am not mistaken!
  As a result he got 20 or 40 lashes. prescribed by local judge! All western press started to make big noise about non democratic aproach to our graffiti man. After he was relised from prison he came back to US and did the same to US cars or walls. This time nothging happened to him. Reason?We are living in permissive society. I do what I feel like to do.
  Same story with our hero Nicolaides. He was working as a teacher in Thailand, insulted Thai Dynasty and he is surprised when judge gave him 3 years along sentence?
  Is he a stupid? I dont know ! But sometimes you should pay for you dids or to think twice. Muntadar al-Zaidi who was playing with his 2 boots during Bush Jr visit in Bagdad as a result had broken ribs .
  So in my opinion Thai judge was too lenient toward Mr Nicalaides. If you are in Rome you do like Romans!

• 2 Ms Ada Bsiz // Jan 20, 2009 at 8:33 am

  I don’t understand why someone working or visiting another country be stupid enough to smuggle drugs or critisize the government or break laws ?

  Nicolaides worked several years as an “English” teacher in Thailand (having presumably not found suitable employment in Australia). So he is not just a tourist or a bag-packer passing through.

  But hey ! Write a book critisizing a “fictitious” Prince and King … that would definitely guarantee notoriety.

  And I suppose, after his release, he will write the inevitable book about his Thai “ordeal” and hard life in prison …

• 3 Mark // Jan 20, 2009 at 10:14 am

  Bruno & Ms Ada Bsiz you are both vigourously defending (presumably) your countries law but fail. How can a fictitious character in a novel be interpreted as a reference to the Thai royalty? unless there is another agenda? perhaps a Thai teacher wanting Harry’s job? who knows whats behind this but it certainly appears to be something else other than a real insult to the Thai royalty. It’s hard to respect such a law when it can be interpreted in any way the court officers decide. the written word especially english is open to interpretation – hell there are people that make a living interpreting other peoples work. Shakespeare is continually being interpreted.
  Have you read the “offending” novel? I understand that it’s a novel that sold only a few copies – this action will ensure that the novel is now read much more widely. It is already circulating on the web.

• 4 Trent // Jan 20, 2009 at 10:26 am

  “Is he a stupid?” Well I’ll let others here decide the implications of your statement.

  Taking what I think you meant by that question, isn’t it far less intelligent to blindly follow an outdated, draconian ruling than to question the same? I take the point IF you are aware of local laws that can imprison you it may be unwise to go against them but by all accounts Nicolaides was completely unaware of this law and that an arrest warrant had been issued when he was taken at Bangkok International airport.

  Surely what is happening here at the most fundamental level is a statement from the Thai royalty and government that you have no right to free speech, whether your a foreigner or thai national.

  Without that basic right you and I would not be stating our opinions on this website!

  Have some compassion for a human being who I am sure IS going through an ordeal in prison. The very experience and its conditions surely dictates that.

• 5 Thorn // Jan 20, 2009 at 10:45 am

  I have read Harry’s book, and such a tiny amount of it refers to the Thai Monarchy (5 lines from 200 something pages). The whole story of his novel is about something else, totally unrelated to the Monarchy. I believe this is more of an innocent crime, he obviously had no intention to use his book to criticise the Thai monarchy. His case cannot be compared to any of the cases given by the comments above.

  I feel so sorry for him. Please do not readily criticise him without knowing enough information on what he actually did. The only crime he did was just the clumsiness that harmed no one but himself. In addition, he just fell victim of the present madness of Thai politics. His charge was driven by the fear of the Thai conservative that their monarchy will be exposed to the fair analysis by foreign media. The treatment that Harry received at the moment is so cruel and unjust. He deserves an apology from Thailand, and support from foreigners.

• 6 Ralph Kramden // Jan 20, 2009 at 11:02 am

  These responses are getting cretinous. One really has to wonder about their reasons for writing such silliness. Can’t get their facts right or their spelling. None of these persons have read the book because it just isn’t available. They don’t question whether there can be good laws and bad laws and nor do they question the political uses of laws. One suspects there are particular reasons for never having been on NM and then suddenly showing up with uniformed rants.

  By the way, if you did want to think about the case, the BBC has an excellent report on the Nicolaides case, and in the circumstances, quite brave.

• 7 David Brown // Jan 20, 2009 at 12:18 pm

  note that Thai law also prohibits:

  Section 133: Whoever, defaming, insulting or threatening the Sovereign, Queen, Consort, Heir-apparent or Head of Foreign State, shall be imprisoned from one to seven years or fined from two thousand to fourteen thousand baht, or both.

  so, also be careful what you say about Kevin Rudd, Putin, the pres of Kazakhstan, etc while in Thailand

  unless you are a member of the Thai ruling elite or its supporters (pro tem) in which case you are probably allowed to say anything you like about anyone

• 8 borporchai // Jan 20, 2009 at 1:07 pm

  If we were to uphold a law jailing people for saying idiotic things about others then many of us who contribute to this website would be behind bars.

  The irony is that for people to have any self-conscious responsibility for what they say, they must be given the freedom to say it, and in many cases this results in ‘irresponsible’ expressions, which then partially fill websites like this one with nonsense. But if they are not given the freedom to say what they want, then equally, they cannot be held accountable for what they say.

  In an environment where the slightest hint of negativity in statements about royalty in Thailand leads to jail terms, it is not possible to take seriously anyone who says they ‘love’ the king. Well, of course they do! They simply don’t have the opportunity, or have never had the chance to developed the will, to express ideas about power and authority in a more sophisticated way. And they react violently to the suggestion that their particular force-fed view of power and authority causes violence against people who have different ideas, thus confirming that very violence.

• 9 Cam // Jan 20, 2009 at 2:29 pm

  Bruno are you serious? I know your beliefs are medieval and primitive, but the fact is, speaking on behalf of Australians, we view this as a total misgiving of justice. In this country we enjoy certain rights under our national constitution and one of them is freedom of speech. This right is integral for the process of democracy. This attitude id in Rome do like Romans is the just the kind of narcissistic thinking and belief system of an individual with a limited education. I find it disgusting the state of Mr. Nicolaides situation as it is widely known the primal conditions of South East Asian gaols. Knowing Thai people quite well I can assure you they look at this in a bad light. Even though it is there King and he is very revered by them, they have an attitude that suggests foreigners are allowed their views as well as the next one. After all when Thai students come to this country we receive more than our fair share of criticism of the Queen and of our Government. So please have some compassion for this mans situation, and open the gates of your enclave as it does you a great deal to understand what happens outside the walls.

• 10 Frank G Anderson // Jan 20, 2009 at 6:00 pm

  My experience with the Thai courts…

  Back in December 2005, after having been maligned, defamed, incited against, threatened and assaulted, my Thai wife appeared in court as plaintiff against a local radio personality and benefactor of a local Buddhist abbot. The trial took three days to complete.
  I was one of the witnesses and observers.

  When one monk testified to confirm our version of events, the village idiot – that is, defendant – shouted out three times, “Your honor, he’s lying.” Did the judge admonish her? Not at all.
  Outside in the court hallway, when I mentioned to my wife that any stupid evidence that was submitted would not be accepted by the court, the idiot happened to be standing nearby. She went to the judge and screamed that I had called her stupid. So what did the judge do? He got everyone together and condescendingly admonished everyone not to talk bad about the other.

  Lessons: Justice is difficult to find anywhere, but in Thailand you will be looking longer than in most other places, save perhaps Burma and Saudi Arabia. Even when a Thai screams out in open court during a hearing that the witness is a liar, the judge did nothing. When he was lied to, he took action. So why would Harry expect much different?
  Any compassion, any tolerance, any sense of decency on the part of those who felt miffed by that short paragraph in Harry’s book? Not at all.

  I really don’t know what can be done about this Thai style Salem witch trial. I would not mind joining a boycott, protest, campaign or other, but what can we accomplish? Anyone for a letter-writing campaign addressed to the CP directly?
  Surely this would thin our the expatriate population in Thailand…

• 11 thy // Jan 20, 2009 at 6:02 pm

  What’s more, the charge against Nicolaides is based on a THAI TRANSLATION of the 3 sentences in question. We will never know if it is even an accurate translation because the judge declared that nobody was allowed to repeat the offending words in court.

  I urge everyone here to encourage as many people around the world to follow this case, as well as that of of Giles Ji Ungkaporn and others so that something is done to stop this madness.

  How much worse are things in Thailand going to get before they get better?

• 12 Bruno // Jan 20, 2009 at 6:43 pm

  Dearest Fellows!
  Personally I am not one who is promoting laws in foreign countries! In my own – different matter!
  I never visited countries which in my opinion dont support human rights and I will not do it in the futur! But if for this or other reason (dont say never *)))I will find myself in one of them I will act according to local customs and laws.
  Imposing Australian, US or European so call “democracie” in this or other part of the world allways are finishing badly. Best example Irak. Junior was trying to export american democracie and as a result almost 650.000 or 800.000 today are dead!
  If Nicolaides decided to go to Thailand looking for job – he had all rights to do so. But he should not be involved in local politics. Or maybe this way he was trying to advertise his book?

• 13 Dickie Simpkins // Jan 20, 2009 at 6:54 pm

  Poor Poor Harry.

  We can agree to disagree on many many political actors, events, and the implications of fact.

  But I hope we don’t disagree on the middle-age draconian treatment given to Harry Nicolaides. The poor guy… it’s not as Bruno says “when in Rome…”

  there is a right to decency.

  The LM law can exist, I do not call for an abolishment of it. I just state, as always, that the ‘injured party’ be the complainer, not some obscure police man.

  so sad

• 14 Jason // Jan 20, 2009 at 7:11 pm

  I plan on leaving Thailand next month after ten years living here. Thailand is descending quickly into an even more polarized society, where the rich get away with murder (literally!) and the poor and those foreigners who become a ‘problem’ are thrown in jail.

  If you live in Thailand, be well aware you can be arrested and charged for making any statement about a person in power and there’s nothing anyone will do about it. Thais are known to be apathetic about most things, so they’re certainly not going to protest these ridiculous lese majeste laws either.

  If you’re a tourist, I recommend you steer clear of Thailand. Why spend your money supporting this new regime (and that’s what it is, it’s not a government) that will do nothing to help the poor but will only continue to prop up the rich and socially elite.

• 15 Bruno // Jan 20, 2009 at 7:54 pm

  Thorn // Jan 20, 2009 at 10:45 am

  I have read Harry’s book, and such a tiny amount of it refers to the Thai Monarchy (5 lines from 200 something pages). The whole story of his novel is about something else, totally unrelated to the Monarchy.
  ——-
  Visit Hyde park (Speakers corner!!!) if you never did before. Say something against Queen – and you are going to be arrested by policeman.
  Is that a democracy? – you are asking. Et pourtent UK is at heart of european democracy!

• 16 Macca // Jan 21, 2009 at 4:43 am

  Surely these cases (Harry and Giles Ungpakorn) inflicts further damage to Thailand’s already torn standing in the international society, and I believe the new government realizes this. The usages of LM-laws don’t sit well with the modern image they are trying to project of themselves.

  Even if the ideologists in the present government apparently jettisoned certain fundamental democratic traits (e.g. ‘one-man-one-vote’), they do seem sincere about implementing their version of democracy, ‘good governance’- policies, accountability, human rights, and so forth. (See for example BBC.com interview with FM Kasit Piromya).

  So on freedom of speech and the Thai media, I’m just curious, doesn’t people here at NM harbor any hopes of Thailand returning towards a more open media environment (like in 1997-2001) now that Thaksin is out of the picture?

  I mean, isn’t there a chance, even a likely possibility, that the new government’s policies, provided that they manage to stay in power, will generate an increasingly open environment for freedom of speech in Thailand, or am I being excessively optimistic here?

• 17 Nick Nostitz // Jan 21, 2009 at 6:58 am

  “Macca”:

  There is very little hope. All evidence, contrary to Democrat rethorics, points to the sad conclusion that things will be worse than under Thaksin very soon.
  Read between the lines.

• 18 Ralph Kramden // Jan 21, 2009 at 7:35 am

  Macca: Read this thread here at NM, which lists Democrat actions (rather than rhetoric): Defending the taboo – the royal response.

• 19 Frank G Anderson // Jan 21, 2009 at 9:37 am

  Bruno’s remarks about imposing foreign values on Thailand have some merit, but only some. In principle this argument is solid enough, but it ignores the collective nature of mankind in terms of the basic principles that we should all enjoy and have a right to protection, etc.
  While the comparison is stretched, it’s like your neighbor pounding his wife and children to a pulp and you keeping out of it because you don’t want to become involved.
  Mankind is involved with one another. When we cite wrongness of interference in the plight of others, when we deny wrongdoing because if is not “our” wrongdoing, then we do a disservice to others. As well, the lese majeste laws are being abused and illegally enforced, over and aboover any western interpretation of the situation.
  Should anyone interfere in this mad process on LM? Absolutely. We are not Joan of Arcs or Christs, but when we back off from standing up for what’s right – no matter national context – we fail to honor our fellow man.

• 20 Thorn // Jan 21, 2009 at 11:47 am

  Bruno,

  Actually, I just watched a TV program that made fun of the British Queen and Prince Harry. Let’s see whether that TV program producers and actors will be arrested.

  In addition, if possible, please remind me of the last time that the UK police arrests anyone for violating the Lèse Majesté law.

• 21 GoodnessGraciousMe // Jan 22, 2009 at 8:28 pm

  A couple of observations:

  1. ” … he will write the inevitable book about his Thai “ordeal” and hard life in prison …”. Perhaps he will write a book, which would doubtless sell better than the original offending tome (but which presumably wouldn’t be available at Bangkok Airport bookstalls with all the other ‘Set In Thailand’ stuff). Levity to one side, I’ve been inside numerous Bangkok and provincial prisons, as well as Pentonville, thankfully only visiting, and anyone who thinks that life inside is easy is deluded.

  2. There is no LM law in the UK. The fact is that it’s been open season on the British Royal Family for several decades now. British libel law, which places the onus on the person who says they’ve been libeled to prove that what’s been said about is NOT true, rather than requiring the person accused of libel to prove that something is true, plays a large part in that.

• 22 Sidd // Jan 25, 2009 at 1:54 am

  This seems to be a very unlucky incident as well as a very stupid one.
  The King and the Royal family are the face of the Kingdom of Thailand so to critisize them in any way would be a very stupid thing to do indeed. Thailand is not Australia and laws and lifestyles are very different. The King is thought as by the Thais as almost a god. The Royal family is very important indeed to the people of Thailand.
  Why would anyone critisize the Thai Royal family anyway, especially in Thailand? Anyone in their right mind would have thought and known they could or would be charged and jailed under Thai laws with the publication of this book containing negative comments written about the Royal family.
  Hopefully with a Royal pardon he can have his sentence reduced as this suffering is not good for him or his family but if this is not achieved he will have to undergo alot of suffering for the next 3 years. Such a disapointment and a terrible mistake.

• 23 Frank G Anderson // Jan 25, 2009 at 1:51 pm

  “Anyone in their right mind” is another way of begging the question, making anyone questioning the monarchy’s role or behavior, or criticizing it, as out of his or her mind and thus illegitimate and unjustified.
  It should not be necessary to reiterate the fact, FACT (eff ay see tee) that Harry did not criticize the monarchy or even the Crown Prince, but that he alluded, in a fictional work, that there were rumors regarding the prince which there are.
  So he did not criticize nor did he defame.
  But that is what he was put up on the cross for anyhow. As to who is in their right mind, I ask those who ask this question to examine facts and not feelings, to adjudge reality and not theoretical fancy, to assess Thailand’s obligations both within and outside of Thailand in the human rights, democracy and freedom of speech areas and try to conclude, based on these observations, that Thailand is in the right on this case.
  In my mind it is way off base, and I believe that a valid logical argument can not be won by those offering otherwise.

• 24 Ralph Kramden // Jan 25, 2009 at 11:53 pm

  Sidd has come up with a couple of silly posts to NM so far. This one is interesting because s/he tries to tell informed persons that there is no reason or reasons to criticise the monarchy in Thailand. Clearly, Sidd never reads anything, not even the previous posts in the same thread. Propaganda is one thing. Repeating it is naive, and to quote Sidd, “a very stupid thing to do indeed.”

• 25 Frank G Anderson // Jan 26, 2009 at 12:05 pm

  I will have to agree that Sidd is oversimplifying and ignoring the problem as well as its nature.
  Thailand is bound by religion, ethic, law and covenants it has signed to abide by international law in the field of human rights and freedom of expression. Citing geographical differences does not address the issue in the least. Whether you are Australian in Australia, Thai in Thailand, an American in Burma or a Frenchman in Spain, you are entitled to certain minimal rights and protections, over and above those being interpreted and handed out to you by people with wrongful vested interests at heart.
  Thailand has to abide by legitimate and minimal human rights laws and ethics, and it has not been doing so since day one. To argue that “they are different” and “So we can’t say anything” is pure irrational apathy, confused perhaps by a sense of being an outcast as a foreigner here.
  How can you, also, argue against criticizing the king when even he says it’s what he wants? He does not make slips of the tongue so easily. It’s just that the elite cordon that encircles is not going to allow this to happen, and will use hook and crook to make sure it does not. By hook and crook is meant daily regimentation, nationalist orchestration and denunciation of well-meaning critics.

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