New Mandala

78 responses so far ↓

• 1 Joy // Mar 3, 2009 at 10:59 am

  Many thanks for this article.

• 2 Susie Wong // Mar 4, 2009 at 2:23 am

  The setting: All of the name mentioned in the article have three characteristics. First, they had lived in Thailand before or still living there. They know Thai society well. Second, they come from various walks of life with different backgrounds and professions. Third, they are the achievers in their own fields of expertise. They are either a successful political leader, writer, academic professor, engineer, politician, political journal editor. Obviously, they are educated and capable of having analytical thinking to form their own opinion.

  At issue: Why the best achievers Thais or foreigners who are capable of reasoning have difficulty with lese majeste law?

• 3 Jason Geddes // Mar 4, 2009 at 11:50 pm

  At issue: Why the best achievers Thais or foreigners who are capable of reasoning have difficulty with lese majeste law?

  People all over the world no matter their education , no matter their status, recognize a repression when they see it. The example of Harry Nicolaides who received permission to publish yet was arrested anyway, found guilty anyway, and sentenced to an absolute abuse of privilege sentence, anyway is just one example of tyranny within Thailand. Somehow i know there will be many many other examples of why this law should be removed for the good of Thailand.
  The issue i have with your comment Suzie is how do you justify a government enforcing such an abusive law, despite granting an author permission to publish??

• 4 Susie Wong // Mar 5, 2009 at 1:47 pm

  Jason, Thank you for giving me a feed back. Actually, I mean the opposite to what you understood. In other words, I have the same position as yours on the issue. I guess next time when I write I should elaborate my point more instead of assuming the reader will understand what I mean.

  I am 100% against oppressive authoritarian cruel lese majeste law.

  I was indifferent about politics earlier till I see injustice happened to good patriot Thai people. Since then I have been expressing my views against this cruelty. You can read my views in other articles in the New Mandala. I feel very painful to see those who fight to better other people life be shakled in Thai prison. They received emotional stress beyond describable for trying to lift up the life of others.

  I follow news about their lives especially Dar Torpedo, Thanapol Eawsakul, Suwicha Thakor, Chotisak Onsoong, Nakbangsai, Boonyuen Prasertying, Jakrapob Penkair, Giles Ungpakorn. I respect, admire, and worry about them.

  They all are my hero!
  I stand by them and I will fight for them!

• 5 Jason Geddes // Mar 6, 2009 at 3:23 pm

  No problems Suzie sorry if i have misunderstood. I once was a moderator on a thai forum that brought this issue to my attention. I too oppose such tyranny and am appalled at not only how the Thai monarchy treats foreigners, but also how they treat their own people. Thus i put my real name to articles opposing such tyranny. I am extremely glad Harry is home now, he lives not to far from me, and i wish him all the best. I am appalled at not only his and the treatment of Thais pertaining to Lese majeste to the point i have written numerous times about the issue on my blog , as well as in news sites…

  Thanks for the response clearing up your position ..

• 6 pkk // Mar 9, 2009 at 11:09 am

  go to hell or just leave the country in peace…take all your families with you if they understand what you are thinking and doing . If you are certain you are right post your address on the web and see what happen.Basta rd.

• 7 Nudi Samsao // Mar 9, 2009 at 2:00 pm

  Dear pkk: It’s not nice using foul language. Whatever you want to express, you can do so politely. The world would be better for carrying you in it.

• 8 amberwaves // Mar 9, 2009 at 9:11 pm

  pkk said: go to hell or just leave the country in peace…take all your families with you …

  Isn’t that a thing! I said the same thing to the fellows who staged the September 2006 coup… and the funny thing is, Gen. Saprang actually took my advice and brought some of the family along to Europe — for a week, anyway, and a cost to the taxpayers of 7.2 million baht.

• 9 another thai // Mar 10, 2009 at 10:25 am

  some thai pp are so arrogant and ignorants,please see above comment from ( PKK) , shame on you , why don’t you look at other pp comments and see what sort of language do they use ? no wondered why Thailand is no longer peaceful and full of angry pp.

• 10 Jason Geddes // Mar 10, 2009 at 5:13 pm

  Its Ok, another Thai, we know pkk is not representative of all Thai people. Like all nations, Thailand is made of people with different opinions. However stating an opinion in the fashion pkk has, only proves there is real issues in Thailand, something we already know.
  Abuse and threats are not an indication of open honest government.

• 11 stephan // Mar 17, 2009 at 11:54 pm

  we always thought, the law on issue does not protect a family, but the constitutional head of state, symbol of thailands pride, love of its people and deep believes of most buddhists.
  just ty to go into any church in america and proclaim aloud that jesus is dead. or that you are simply more popular than jesus (just like lennon said it once). you may experience a protest storm and you will be punished severely, even up to death-threats.
  in germany so-called holocaust-deniers languish in jail.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial
  in america today you will be detained in guantanamo if you dare to express sympathy for the 9/11 pilots. most peoples in the world seem to have their ‘majesties’ and are vigorously defending them……

• 12 Jason Geddes // Mar 18, 2009 at 9:06 pm

  Your quite right in that Stephen, yet should we ignore these issues? Each and every point you have raised, are problems, real hypocrisies within our societies. Although the holocaust deniers languishing in jail doen’t really faze me, for while i am an none believer in religion, there is much evidence to support the extermination of jews during WW2 ?
  The right or wrong of that is somewhat irrelevant 60 years later.
  However the issue on this particular thread is Thailands repugnant law of lèse majesté and while some may claim it as a cultural matter, the truth is it is a law used to intimidate and repress not only the Thai people, but also foreigners whom come from a different cultural background that allows such behavoir.
  Comparing the Thai monarcvhy to Christianity is truly absurd, the guy is just another man whom abuses the law to lock up dissenters, or even authors of fictional books. Frankly i think man kind would be better off without religion of any form, much less rulers that pretend to be god like.

• 13 Ralph Kramden // Mar 19, 2009 at 8:43 am

  stephan just shows his ignorance of the lese majeste laws and of foreign countries, their laws, practices and implementation:

  “just ty to go into any church in america and proclaim aloud that jesus is dead.” – it has been done many times. If you were even remotely interested, you might even watch the documentary film “Religulous” by Bill Maher who goes further and says that all religion is hocus pocus.

  The John Lennon analogy is stupid. He was criticised, his records burned, etc., but he was out of jail, and even interviewed again and again on his comments. He wasn’t locked up and refused bail.

  “in america today you will be detained in guantanamo if you dare to express sympathy for the 9/11 pilots.” To be honest, I am unsure of this claim; I certainly haven’t heard it before. So maybe stephan can tell us which of the persons on the list of detainees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guantanamo_Bay_detainees) was held for this offence? Certainly some of those who were and are held at Guantanamo have proclaimed support for the 9/11 hijackers, but these are held for reasons other than this. So, any evidence?

  “in germany so-called holocaust-deniers languish in jail” – true, but look at how it is implemented: (1) An insult shall be prosecuted only upon complaint. If the act was committed through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) or making them publicly accessible in a meeting or through a presentation by radio, then a complaint is not required if the aggrieved party was persecuted as a member of a group under the National Socialist or another rule by force and decree, this group is a part of the population and the insult is connected with this persecution. The act may not, however, be prosecuted ex officio if the aggrieved party objects. When the aggrieved party deceases, the rights of complaint and of objection devolve on the relatives indicated in Section 77 subsection (2). The objection may not be withdrawn.

  (2) If the memory of a deceased person has been disparaged, then the relatives indicated in Section 77 subsection (2), are entitled to file a complaint. If the act was committed through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) or making them publicly accessible in a meeting or through a presentation by radio, then a complaint is not required if the deceased person lost his life as a victim of the National Socialist or another rule by force and decree and the disparagement is connected therewith. The act may not, however, be prosecuted ex officio if a person entitled to file a complaint objects. The objection may not be withdrawn. (…)

  This is quite different from LM.

• 14 nganadeeleg // Mar 19, 2009 at 8:58 am

  “Comparing the Thai monarcvhy to Christianity is truly absurd, the guy is just another man whom abuses the law to lock up dissenters, or even authors of fictional books.”

  Which guy????

• 15 stephan // Mar 20, 2009 at 6:54 am

  @14 nganadeeleg
  it’s all about believes, if you share them or not.
  this ‘guy’ is king, semi-devine, head of the buddhists in thailand.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhumibol_Adulyadej
  one can compare him with nobody else,
  coz nobody else is so much respected and loved by his people,
  even not the pope.

  @13 Ralph Kramden
  you are not fair. it’s a fact, that most people have some kind of ‘majesty’
  (greatness = to be respected above everyhing else).
  few examples were used:
  christians have jesus,
  muslims have mohammad,
  some have nothing,
  some have their children
  and thais have their believes, including the king.
  none of them likes it,
  when others insult them by pretending that their believes are worthless.
  the worst offenders are the u.s.a.:
  there a doctor was convicted to 25 years in prison for nothing else
  but for agreeing to provide medical treatment to wounded!
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafiq_Abdus_Sabir
  john lennon was shot dead in new york
  and your list from guantanamo does not contain any reasons,
  why these people were detained (a major reason for critics)
  although many agree with you, that holocaust-denial should not be a crime,
  it’s a german ‘lese majesty law’, protecting the ‘majesty of german teachings’.

  @12 Jason Geddes
  you say you are non believer, we tolerate this
  you say the holocaust doesn’t faze you after 60 years, your right!
  but why don’t you tolerate and respect the believes of thai people?
  if i would call your laws ‘repugnant’,
  used to intimidate and repress me, would you be happy?
  most likely you would say:
  if you don’t like my laws, stay out of my home.
  i even share your personal believes about religion,
  but that does not allow me to go into a church & insult the worshippers.
  to all of you: freedom is first the freedom of others.
  tolerance is not an emotion, it’s a behaviour……

• 16 Eric // Apr 1, 2009 at 3:39 pm

  Stephan, you are wrong about the ‘guy’. The King does not prosecute lese majeste cases himself. In fact, he has expressed dismay that this law is abused for political purposes. He has pardoned many lese majeste violators. What is disappointing is that he has not issued a decree barring any further prosecutions under this law; as a result, lese majeste suspects spend months in jail under horrendous conditions, before eventually being pardoned. Why not declare the lese majeste law null and void? If the King has so much influence on Thai society, he certainly has the power to make this law unenforceable. Doing so would remove a major impediment to Thailand’s progress on basic rights and freedoms.

  The real problem with lese majeste is not the King, it is those nationalist Thais who use the law as a weapon against anyone who disagrees with them on anything relating to the monarchy. Any Thai on the street can file a lese majeste complaint against another Thai, or a foreigner, if the complainant feels that an insult or disrespect has been shown against the King, Thailand, Thai culture, the Thai flag, etc. Believe it or not, failing to stand for the national anthem in a cinema has resulted in lese majeste charges! In the USA, failing to stand for the national anthem may result in angry stares or comments, but criminal charges would be unthinkable. In Britain, there are no lese majeste laws to ‘protect’ the Queen and the royal family, and the British tabloids constantly dig up dirt on certain royal family members, but by and large the monarchy is viewed positively, as a source of pride for the British people. Why can’t things be the same in Thailand? Instead, politicians, academics, and even ordinary people must be extremely careful what they say, for fear of being dragged off to one of Thailand’s infamous prisons.

• 17 dantampa // Apr 2, 2009 at 5:43 pm

  [quote]Stephan, you are wrong about the ‘guy’. The King does not prosecute lese majeste cases himself. In fact, he has expressed dismay that this law is abused for political purposes. He has pardoned many lese majeste violators.[/quote]

  That raises an interesting point: We all know about the high profile farang cases which get the attention of the international press, but:

  1. Has the King ever pardoned a Thai convicted of lese majeste. If so, how recently and how often ?

  2. Has the King ever attempted to end the punitive practice of denying bail in lese majeste cases, in effect punishing people with imprisonment no matter what trial result or pardon follows ?

  3. Has the King ever specifically called upon Parliament or the Judiciary to alter or reform the the lese majeste laws to prevent their abuse ?

  It seems to be that the institution wants its cake and eat it too. It purports to have decried (in one speech made over a reign of six decades ) the abuse of lese majeste, but has does nothing to correct the situation, other than to “pardon” people who have already been severely punished by pre-trial imprisonment without bail.

• 18 Jason Geddes // Apr 2, 2009 at 10:47 pm

  @12 Jason Geddes
  you say you are non believer, we tolerate this,

  Good for you, tolerate you say , hardly an understanding perspective..

  
  you say the holocaust doesn’t faze you after 60 years, your right!
  but why don’t you tolerate and respect the believes of thai people?,
  that is not what i said, but in fact i respect the Thai people i just do not respect on law and the Thai govts abuse of it to repress their own people.
  if i would call your laws ‘repugnant’,
  used to intimidate and repress me, would you be happy?
  most likely you would say:
  if you don’t like my laws, stay out of my home.

  Actually i actively protest unfair laws in my own country too.
  
  i even share your personal believes about religion,
  but that does not allow me to go into a church & insult the worshippers.

  if you shared my religious views you would never put one foot in a church, i believe they are all criminal frauds of the worst kind.
  
  to all of you: freedom is first the freedom of others.
  tolerance is not an emotion, it’s a behaviour……
  freedom is freedom for everyone , that means all Thais, not just the royals.
  tolerance is accepting that not everyone will like you or your point of view, yet Le Majeste doesn’t tolerate anything but nice comments pertaining to the Thai king. Thats not free nor tolerant.

• 19 stephan // Apr 2, 2009 at 10:52 pm

  we repeat it again:
  the ‘lese majesty’ protects the thai people & their believes & the king as a symbol,
  NOT as a person.
  foreigners may have the excuse of not knowing the thai culture,
  but thais have no excuse for mud slinging.

  the occasional ‘abuse’ of a law is a matter for the courts.
  you may not want ‘libel’ or ‘defamation’ to become legal,
  just because they are sometimes ‘abused’.

  former prime-minister samak was NOT ousted for cooking
  but for breaching & neglecting the constitution he had sworn to defend.
  the guy who sat during the hymne was NOT charged for sitting
  but for the willful & needless provocation of sacred thai believes.

  when in rome, do as the romans do!
  in asia society & family are way above the individual.
  if you don’t like that, stay in your supreme own country
  but don’t come here to teach us what you think is wrong or right.

• 20 Jason Geddes // Apr 3, 2009 at 12:41 am

  you still havent justified the abuse of power in locking up people for having an opinion contrary to your own. BTW i have never suggested my country is superior to yours, nor have i been to your country and told you what is right and wrong. However i do have the right to express my opinions on this , and any other forum, that your lese maajeste laws are repressive and inhuman. You can make all the excuses for tyranny in your country you want, but the fact remains your king is not a god nor is he, or any govt official that enforces such repression , worthy of anything but contempt.

• 21 stephan // Apr 3, 2009 at 7:08 am

  @jason geddes:
  we don’t understand why you are so angry. your words:
  “… i have never suggested my country is superior to yours,
  nor have i been to your country and told you what is right and wrong.
  However i do have the right to express my opinions on this ,
  and any other forum…”

  because you still insist to impose
  YOUR very personal perception of ‘freedom’ on other people,
  let me give you one very last example:

  YOU may believe to have all the right to express YOUR opinion
  on the question if YOUR mother, wife or daughter is a bitch,
  but YOU do NOT have any right to express YOUR opinion
  about MY relatives.
  would YOU perhaps be so kind & fair
  to admit that this is a huge, decisive difference?

  if thai people believe that their king is devine,
  who are YOU to tell them that they are dead wrong?
  you may think you are liberal, where in fact you are intolerant.

  we would not clash if you say: “i don’t like thailand because….”.
  that is your good right, you don’t need to love this country.
  but we are in serious trouble as long as you say:
  “thailand needs to change” or
  “i, jason need to change thailand, coz i know better”.

  don’t behave like an american imperialist world police, please.
  if you do have any more problems, please do respond……

• 22 Ralph Kramden // Apr 3, 2009 at 7:29 am

  Stephan: Why not do some research? Maybe you can even do a bit of reading on the lese majeste law and the cases involved? The you could have informed opinions rather than beliefs and imaginings.

• 23 Jason Geddes // Apr 3, 2009 at 1:23 pm

  if thai people believe that their king is devine,
  who are YOU to tell them that they are dead wrong?
  you may think you are liberal, where in fact you are intolerant.
  I dont claim to be liberal nor tolerant. in fact i am definitely not tolerant of fraud, deceit nor govts that deny the rights of their civilians the right of free opinion.
  If the Thai people have been conned into believing their king is “devine” that is indeed deceitful, your king is nothing more than a sham dictator.
  You can mince words all you like, at the end of the day Thai people are still in jail for having an opinion contrary to yours, for that you and the Thai people should be outraged.
  I can not change Thailand , only the good people of Thailand can do that, however i can express an opinion contrary to the propaganda machine that runs Thailand, unlike the good people of Thailand that are imprisoned for displaying any form of dissent.

• 24 Nudi Samsao // Apr 3, 2009 at 2:26 pm

  I would like to nominate General Prem, President of the Privy Council, to the task of moderating the lese majeste law. It would be a great opportunity for him to do something productive for both the royalty and the common folks.

• 25 stephan // Apr 3, 2009 at 4:23 pm

  @ralf #22
  soso, you BELIEVE others should do a bit of reading!
  can you IMAGINE, that we did that already?
  on what information about us is your opinion based,
  or should we say biased?

  now that we know YOUR believes & imaginations,
  where are your arguments?
  and don’t forget please:
  you need not share other peoples believes,
  but you must respect them,
  especially when you are a guest in other peoples country.
  or do you need to learn respect first?

  if one comes into your house & insults your mother,
  he’d be chucked out on his ears faster than a lightning flash,
  or would you sit down with him & discuss his insults,
  while your little sisters hearts are bleeding?

  why don’t you people start your holy crusades
  to save other peoples souls in your own house first?

• 26 Srithanonchai // Apr 3, 2009 at 5:05 pm

  Man gets 10-year jail term for lese majesty

  The Criminal Court Friday sentenced a man to ten year imprisonment for posting a picture deemed insulting the monarchy on a website.

  Initially, Suwicha Thakho was sentenced to be jailed for 20 years but the court commuted the jail term by half after he pleaded guilty.

  He was charged with violating Article 112 of the Criminal Code and violating the computer crime act.

  The man wept upon learning of his sentence.

  The Nation April 3 2009

• 27 Srithanonchai // Apr 3, 2009 at 5:37 pm

  Here are links to an article by Borwornsak Uwanno, secretary general of the King Prajadhipok Institute (KPI) on the lese majesty issue. He sees it as a “distinctive character of Thai democracy.” However, he wants abuse to be limted by giving the Attorny General the sole right to file complaints.

  http://www.kpi2.org/kpith/downloads/Article_Dr.Borwornsak_02-04-09.pdf (English version)

  http://www.kpi2.org/kpith/downloads/Article-th_Dr.Borwornsak_02-04-09.pdf (Thai version)

• 28 Michael // Apr 4, 2009 at 1:06 am

  Thanks, Srithanonchai (Mrs, I see), for this link #26. It’s an extremely well-written and beautifully-reasoned document, & wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could believe that argument in the Thai legal system (not to mention the parliament) could be as informed, lucid & freely expressed.

  Interestingly, Kh. Borwornsak states that it all hangs on intent, i.e. if it can be shown that the accused had the *intent* to injure the person & position of whoever is alleged to have been the Royal victim, then the allegation can be deemed proven, & vice-versa.

  That doesn’t appear to have been a consideration in the case of Harry N . Of course Harry pleaded guilty, so we can’t really criticize the judges (& we couldn’t in any case, because in Thailand it is illegal to do so), but surely intent would have been taken into account in the lengthy police investigation prior to the trial, & it appears glaringly obvious that he had no intent to injure anyone. In fact, it seems clear that he took steps to ensure that he wouldn’t.

  As for the young man who is now languishing in prison for refusing to stand for the anthem, I would be intrigued to know how intent came into his case. But I never will, because no transcripts are made in any trial in Thailand, merely judges’ summaries, and in cases of Lese Majeste nothing is made public anyway.

  Nevertheless, in an area where there has been a great deal of misinformation, Kh. Borwornsak has provided a very useful overview of the issue, both in Thailand & internationally.

• 29 Michael // Apr 4, 2009 at 12:44 pm

  Sorry, the link is on Srithanonchai’s #27, NOT 26. Recommended for everyone with an interest in LM.

• 30 R. N. England // Apr 4, 2009 at 3:43 pm

  The problem with the lèse majesté law is that it is unjust and tyrannical. It has the potential to catch large numbers of innocent people, who would then be treated extremely unjustly. The absurd injustice of the Thai lèse majesté law would be completely appropriate for the plot of a Gilbert & Sullivan operetta scoffing at aspects of the British constitution that resemble asiatic despotism.

  The argument that everything would be OK if it were applied unchanged, but sparingly at the discretion of some official or other, is not, I think, one that one that would be accepted by jurists in legally more mature countries. That would be an open invitation for the selected official to use it on his enemies. Hence the ironic suggestion in this thread by Nudi Samsao that General Prem could play this rôle.

• 31 stephan // Apr 4, 2009 at 8:09 pm

  @Srithanonchai #26
  we wept too about the insult
  the man should have wept BEFORE he deliberately violated thai laws.
  he pleaded guilty and was charged
  with violating Article 112 of the Criminal Code and violating the computer crime act
  so why the crocodile tears? remorse??
  we’ve seen even mass-murderers weeping in the electric chair.
  but most of them were NOT weeping about their deeds or their victims,
  NO they were weeping in self-pity!

• 32 dantampa // Apr 4, 2009 at 9:52 pm

  I found that article by Professor Borwornsak of the King Prajadhipok’s Institute as superficial at best and intellectually dishonest at worst, filled with irrelevant comparisons to other laws, civil or unenforced for ages as crimes, and resorting finally to the paternalism that always seems to be the last refuge for defending lese majeste as a major crime.

  One particulary disingenuous comment stands out when the author writes:

  “It was unfortunate that Mr. Nicolaides had not petitioned to the King before being imprisoned. Had His Majesty the King learned of his plight before the court issued its verdict, Nicolaides’ case might have been dropped. A number of earlier cases were, as the attorney-general and prosecutors in charge of those cases could testify. ”

  Since Harry Nicolaides was arrested on a secret warrant at Bangkok airport, and was then jailed immediately without bail, one wonders how the writer could even suggest that he might have petitioned the King before being incarcerated.

  Moreover, the suggestion that the palace was unaware of this farang Nicolaides’ case before the verdict was rendered seems preposterous. If true, the lot of royal advisors in and out of the Privy Council should all be fired.

  The only positive aspect of the article is the suggestion at the very end that lese majeste be reformed to allow only the Attorney General to initiate such prosecutions.

  One wonders if that’s the real reason the article was written: to put into motion some mechanism to get this lese majeste genie back into the bottle before it upends the institution it’s supposed to be defending.

• 33 Jason Geddes // Apr 5, 2009 at 2:11 pm

  The tears of an oprressed Thai are in no way the same as self pity tears that the dictators of Thailand will cry, when they are held to account by the Thai people. The tears cried by those found guilty under lèse majesté laws, are Thailand bleeding, bleeding internally until eventually she ruptures in outright indignation.
  Those whom present and enforce lèse majesté , falsely presenting le majeste as a valid law or a vital part of a supposed democracy , which Thailand certainly is not, will be one day held to account, for repressing the Thai people into blind obediance.
  Only when you see the tears cried by the dud king and his enforcers will you know tears of self pity Stephen. Until then i suggest yopu open your eyes to the suffering caused by your supposed divine king and his supporters, in their attempts to prop up what can only ever be seen as a repressive regime.

• 34 Srithanonchai // Apr 5, 2009 at 5:11 pm

  Dantampa:

  “One wonders if that’s the real reason the article was written: to put into motion some mechanism to get this lese majeste genie back into the bottle before it upends the institution it’s supposed to be defending.”

  I guess so. After all, Ajarn Borwornsak is an important member of the royalist circles. And he took care to derive his suggestion from a long quote of a speech by the king.

  Thus, I guess that this piece was written with a purpose (BU is not a private public intellectual, after all), and it indicates some internal discussions in the relevant circles, just as Dej Bunnag had pointed out earlier that palace circles were aware of the problems of lese majeste.

  In this context, one might mention that Chermsak is back on TV, and his first act was to have Suchit and Visit praise the monarchy. One or two days later, Pramual Rujanaseri (of “Royal Powers” fame) and a privy councilor were also on TV doing the same. Different factions of royalists seem to be battling it out…

• 35 another thai // Apr 6, 2009 at 8:08 am

  Stephen >>> i am sorryto say this but your comments here are so pathetic and arrogants , and don’t tell me that i must love the king as well if i am thai , there are plenty of real criminals out there where the police force should be act ,the real act not innocent people,no one die for being insult.

• 36 Stephan // Apr 6, 2009 at 10:37 pm

  @ another anonymous coward #35
  nobody tells YOU to love (you are perhaps incapable of loving).
  we kindly ask you to ‘respect’ (but you are perhaps incapable?)
  the REAL criminal is still fugitive and thousands have died.
  that’s our concern, not yours or someones crocodile tears……

  @jason, the merciless hunter & cursed for his breaking promises:
  #33 quote:
  “The tears of an oprressed Thai are in no way the same
  as self pity tears that the dictators of Thailand will cry,
  when they are held to account by the Thai people.”

  YOU will be held to account by the thai people
  as soon as you set foot here
  & will cry your self pity tears as others did before you.
  but do not say you were not warned:
  “do not provoke the anger of the thai majority!”
  it seems so easy to insult others from some safe havens.
  we call that ‘cheap talking’
  & oppression of the believes of the thai majority.
  do YOU want to become the dictator of thailand?
  if not, “leave them kids alone!”

• 37 Jason Geddes // Apr 7, 2009 at 1:14 pm

  You are showing your true colours Stephen and the true colours of the repressive and vile nature of lèse majesté. If only the Thai people had the right of free speech we would know their opinion, but that’s just not the way your divine king operates is it?

  Threats against foreigners whom know the truth of your king and his repressive nature, will not stop the world from knowing how he operates.
  Your threats and abuse i find most amusing. It seems you think we should revere your king under threat of lèse majesté were we to put foot in Thailand. So it is true your king rules by fear not from a point of earned respect.
  Whats the bet your real name isn’t Stephen either???

• 38 amberwaves // Apr 7, 2009 at 2:50 pm

  Judging by Stephan’s curiously rambling remarks, I think New Mandala has welcomed its first royalist ganja smoker.

  Hey man, chill!

• 39 michael // Apr 7, 2009 at 4:30 pm

  Stephan’s repetitive, boring, unoriginal & abusive comments are dragging this discussion down. Does the webmaster allow them as “high quality”?

  How can he call someone an “anonymous coward,” when he doesn’t identify himself? Many people on this blog use pseudonyms, for very good reasons: we live in a repressive society full of cretinous, obsessive bigots like Stephan, who would harm us if we were as open as we could be in a democracy.

• 40 Jason Geddes // Apr 7, 2009 at 4:33 pm

  So everyone that denounces this lèse majesté as being repression, of not only the Thai people ,but foreingers also, will be put on a list of “not welcome in Thailand, charge them if they land”. We should focus on making that list as big as possible by spreading the word pertaining to Thai repression and using Stephan as their example of how they operate.

  A divine king has no need for enforcing the public’s perception of him, a truly divine king wins over public perception by his deeds not by legislation.
  i applaud the adding of my name to your list Stephen, as i applaud any name on that list, that rebukes the divinity of your repressive regime that rules Thailand. I will applaud the day Thailand becomes a truly free country where any Thai can express their opinion without fear of persecution.

• 41 Jason Geddes // Apr 7, 2009 at 6:10 pm

  Michael, while i understand your angst at Stephens comments , the admin here has to allow them to be published, so we can see what we are up against.. The fact he has threatened me only serves to show just the type of administration the Thai people live under. His comments only serve to live as an example of why lèse majesté is indeed a repressive and tyrannical style of government.
  freedom of speech allows for all comments even ones we find most despicable.
  Is Stephens example of lèse majesté what the Thai people claim to worship ? I do not think so. i think Stephen is confusing fear with adulation.

• 42 Ben Shingleton // Apr 8, 2009 at 1:25 am

  Not wishing to stoke the fire here, but Jason, I think you would find that over 90% of normal, hard working Thai’s would find your dismissive attitude towards the King very offensive….. Although I think I understand your reasons, could it be possible that you are trying to force your opinions on people that don’t want them? I mean, if somebody puts their hand on a hot stove, they should expect to get burned? Right?

  Everybody knows how sensitive the Thai’s are to their King, but I think that’s the way the Thai’s want it, isn’t it? Quite easy to find out, go and talk to normal Thai’s, as I do, you will find virtually all will tell you, they don’t like people insulting their King….

• 43 Jason Geddes // Apr 8, 2009 at 10:32 am

  Rofl too funny Ben , me forcing my opinion , ha haha ha ha stop it your killling me . i bet the thai people dont even see this page.

• 44 nganadeeleg // Apr 8, 2009 at 1:56 pm

  Ben has raised an interesting point about people not wanting to know others opinions.

  I think that is a big part of the current problems in Thailand.

  Such rigid sticking to ones own opinions without being prepared to consider (or even listen to) other opinions often leads to unnecessary conflict.

  Here we go again……

• 45 michael // Apr 8, 2009 at 3:35 pm

  Jason #41: My remarks re. Stephan’s posts, in #39, are regarding his breaking of the rules of this site, as outlined in the ‘Please note’ para. , before the comments form. That is all. I have no objection to anyone vigorously putting forward a viewpoint different from my own, provided they argue the case & support it with substantial reasoning & evidence. On another thread I declared my appreciation of Prof. Borwonsak’s paper on LM, despite my utter rejection of the LM law & all of the arguments I’ve seen in support of it, because he presented his argument (such as it is) clearly & provided some specific information. I’m very tired of the posts on this site which repeat the same old litany of ‘we love the king & you don’t, so get out & mind your own business, ‘ or ‘when in Rome,’ and other such rubbish. Their inclusion drags the discussion down to a very unintelligent level (similar to the rabid Bangkok Post blogs), & makes it very difficult to move on. When the posts are not only repetitive & lacking in content, but also abusive & ranting, as Stephan’s are, entire threads begin to look like the work of the Stephans & the boring sexpat-retirees who sit around in the cafes of Hua Hin, endlessly repeating the same old uninformed urban-mythical dogshit.

  I think the trick is to exercise editorial rights of excision at the stage where a poster gets repetitive. The odd stabby little prick like pkk#6 enables a laugh & reminds us of the status quo., so I wouldn’t like to see it nuked.

• 46 Nicholas Farrelly // Apr 8, 2009 at 3:45 pm

  Thanks Michael,

  We certainly do delete a fair number of comments, and those that satisfy the criteria of “repetitive ranting” are usually best left offline. On the other hand, we try our best to keep things fair, and certainly appreciate the efforts of NM’s many commentators. Sometimes we do let through more abusive comments (like some on this thread, for instance) just to ensure that the “debate” is heard. As things heat back up again in Bangkok I expect there will be much more to come. And then the accusations, for the umpteenth time, that New Mandala is a paid-up component of Thaksin’s grand plot to take over the world…

  Best wishes to all,

  Nich

• 47 Dickie Simpkins // Apr 8, 2009 at 4:39 pm

  Damn Nick,

  You could’ve fooled me… I was so convinced that NM was part of Thaksin’s plan to rule the world… one obscure academic site at a time!!

  Jason: I understand what you mean in relations to your post of Stephan, but in all fairness (as Ben said) when the Thai public are fed up of the LM law, they will rise to defeat it… its a thing about people and repression really, too much of it creates an opposite and often violent effect. The problem with the red shirt movement is that they still haven’t (in the minds of most people) been able to seperate the Privy Council from the Head of State as the line drawn between their ‘public’ and their ‘private’ roles are not very clear. As such, LM used to protect them as well, this latest uprising, if successful, will have 2 effects, the good one that will set up a reformation process of the LM Law, its use and applications, as well as remove the ‘network’ from all political power. If not, it will be very bloody and we don’t really know who will win… at this juncture, we cannot say for sure where the silent majority stand… do they still stand with the protections of their institutions, or do they want a large revolutionary process.

• 48 Jason Geddes // Apr 8, 2009 at 8:13 pm

  Thailand was seen as the second most corrupt country with a grade of 7.63, but PERC said foreign investors were more concerned about political stability.

  http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25309467-5005961,00.html

  Says a lot for the current regime in Thailand. The silent majority will never know the worlds perception of their country due to repressive internet censorship in Thailand.

• 49 stephan // Apr 8, 2009 at 9:39 pm

  @michael #39, 45 and many others (too many to mention them all)
  quote: “…repressive society full of cretinous, obsessive bigots like Stephan…”
  just another example of those who pretend to defend “freedom of speech” and “human rights”.
  obviously my comments and attempts to defend the rights of the thai people found many critics.
  some of them frothing from their mouths.
  let’s stay cool, this is an exchange of opinions, not a war, isn’t it?
  it is widely accepted that some people fear this “repressive society”
  so much they use an alias name,
  but still identifiable as individuals and recognizable with their comments.
  anonymous = without character (oxford dict)

  we live in thailand, talk with many thais everyday and visit their homes as guests.
  if anyone of you would simply do the same you will find:
  1. the houses of most thais display prominently one or more pictures of the royalties,
  although there is no law to demand this and nobody ever was charged for not doing so.
  they all do this out of love & respect alone.
  2. whenever someone talks about the monarchy in private,
  you will find them caring,
  expressing individual thoughts and
  even preferences towards one or the other member of the royal family.
  this is common and totally legal.
  especially the question of succession to the throne is often discussed controversially.
  so again, no censorship whatsoever of private individual opinions.
  3. however if somebody would insult any royal member,
  he will most likely be thrown out of the house faster than he can regret.
  this is again the natural & perfect right of each host against trespassers in his house.
  4. thais are not different from anyone else in this world in this respect.
  every trespasser of hospitality has to be removed immediatelly.
  what do you do – dear reader, if your so-called guest starts to insult
  your mother, sister or anything else sacred to you?
  5. it now happened that the vast & overwhelming majority of thai voters
  have repeatedly & constantly voted for a constitutional monarchy,
  with the king as head of state, army & church.
  they did that of their own free will & gladly,
  not different from most other people like the english.
  in fact they repeated their votes unanimously 18 times in 75 years.
  no law demanded it, nobody forced them.
  that is democracy, that the people decide their conditions of state.
  righteously no aliens are allowed to interfere.
  6. if now foreigners, strangers, aliens or ‘colonial’ powers come from abroad
  to tell the adult independent & mature thai voter that he votes wrong
  that he loves the wrong people, that he believes the wrong believes,
  then thais usually do not like those trespassers very much.
  7. if you would come here and ask them they will confirm this.
  they will receive you with their famous smiles & friendliness
  as long as you respect them & their clearly expressed volition.
  8. but please do not try to critisize them, their convictions, believes
  and institutions,
  considered by THEM to be sacred, in PUBLIC.
  the thai mentality is very strict about people who try to make them lose their face.
  9. people who like to critisize in public are generally not welcome in asian societies,
  particularly when they are not from the family and insult any family member.

  those who want to censor them, deny them their right of self-government,
  insult their most sacred believes and want to force a foreign culture on them
  can continue to rant anonymously or under aliases.
  but they should not call themselves ‘uebermensch’ (nietzsche)
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cbermensch

• 50 stephan // Apr 8, 2009 at 11:20 pm

  @jason geddes #48
  why do you hate thailand so much?
  what you post are mostly defamations or outright lies
  in fact we can and do receive billions of internet informations
  including your own derogatory remarks about thailand,
  the herald sun & perc corruption info.

  corruption in thailand is without doubt a serious problem,
  but by far not as grave as your dubious source says.
  a morereliable source seems to be:
  http://www.icgg.org/corruption.cpi_2008_data.html
  which lists thailand with a grade of 3.5, well above its neighbors.
  maybe your own perception censors the better data?

  if there is censorship here it is mostly against child porn & paedophiles
  which come in hordes from your countries!
  but don’t tell us that you despise thailand therefore……

• 51 stephan // Apr 8, 2009 at 11:54 pm

  @ben #42
  thank you for your contribution
  just one tiny little change we would like to suggest:
  you said:
  “if somebody puts their hand on a hot stove, they should expect to get burned?”
  we suggest instead (hope not to alter your intention):
  “if somebody does want to get burned, they should put their hand on a hot stove.”
  do you see the tiny little difference? it is important!
  your sentence implies an accident, only idiots do it purposely,
  my sentence implies an intention/consequence to get burnt
  some children seem to look & look & look around
  until they see a fire or a stove somewhere.
  then they have nothing better to do than to get their fingers burnt.
  but a hot stove is not for children who don’t understand heat.
  loving parents do not allow their children to touch.
  khao djai mai? (thai for: do you understand)?

• 52 stephan // Apr 9, 2009 at 12:12 am

  @jason #43 quote:
  “Rofl too funny Ben , me forcing my opinion , ha haha ha ha stop it your killling me .
  i bet the thai people dont even see this page.”
  what a ‘high-quality original contribution to the discussion’.
  so short & sweet!
  you can bet that many thai people, high & low, do see it indeed.
  we seriously suggest new mandela to publish part of the ip-address,
  like bangkok post does it, so that we know at least what country posters come from.

• 53 stephan // Apr 9, 2009 at 7:26 am

  @jason #41 quote:
  “…The fact he has threatened me…”
  fact? we have never ever threatened you or anybody else !
  with what you feel threatened remains your secret.
  you have no time to give any evidence because you are so busy to insult thai people?
  it is obviously more YOUR style to threaten people
  who have never done YOU any harm.
  deliver the evidence/quote or apologize
  if you’re a man who is not gutless, jason!

• 54 nganadeeleg // Apr 9, 2009 at 9:39 am

  Stephan: Have you read Handley’s book, The King Never Smiles?

  If not, I would highly recommend you do so, as if you have an open mind, it might help to gain some insight about how the current situation has come about.

  as for the possible threats – your comment#36 included the following:

  YOU will be held to account by the thai people
  as soon as you set foot here
  & will cry your self pity tears as others did before you.
  but do not say you were not warned:
  “do not provoke the anger of the thai majority!”
  it seems so easy to insult others from some safe havens.
  we call that ‘cheap talking’
  & oppression of the believes of the thai majority.
  do YOU want to become the dictator of thailand?
  if not, “leave them kids alone!”

• 55 Jason Geddes // Apr 9, 2009 at 11:08 am

  Thanks nganadeeleg apparently Stephen has no idea what he writes. His post at #53 is incredulous .
  Stephen :
  Claiming a person whom objects to Thailands law of lèse majesté therefore he must hate Thailand and its people is as nonsensical an argument, but is typical, of what you have posted here so far. Do see if you can be objective , and stick to the point rather than posting abuse and threats..

  The Thai people are a wonderful people, how do i know , that Sir is my business . The Thai leadership is a totally different story to the Thai people.

• 56 Ralph Kramden // Apr 9, 2009 at 4:42 pm

  Stephan at 25: My point to you was that if you showed evidence of informed opinions in your posts you might be taken seriously. You don’t do that. I have no opinion on the content of your posts until you say something that makes sense and can be debated.

• 57 Michael // Apr 9, 2009 at 11:32 pm

  Stephan: Your definition of ‘anonymous’, for which you cite the OED, is misleading, since it is far from the primary one, which is ‘not named, not identified.’ (This is not a quote from the OED, BTW. Its true, nevertheless.) It seems that you, who comment as “Stephan,” hardly an identifying name, are obsessed with insulting posters who do so anonymously. Isn’t that rather hypocritical?

  You have also given the impression that you are Thai, and speaking on behalf of Thais. I doubt that this is true, because your rather poor English identifies you as a European, probably German (your name, as well as some of the language constructions you use, point to this.) Of course there’s nothing wrong with being a German, except when you mislead people, as stated in the first sentence of this paragraph.

  BTW, you seem to have endless time to write your comments, and have virtually hijacked this thread, although all your posts seem to be written on behalf of Thais. This seems odd, since there are quite a few Thai contributors to NM, who seem quite capable of writing their own posts. Do you think they need you? A lot of them seem to have a much better concept of argument than you, who on the other hand show yourself to be simply argumentative. And most of them speak only on behalf of themselves, which seems fairly rational & balanced, good qualities in a debate.

  Many non-Thai posters, probably most, either live here or spend quite a bit of time here, in answer to your comment about ISP addresses. Not that that confers any more rights on them than those who are simply interested in joining in a discussion of an absurd law which is not protecting anyone who it ostends to protect, but is functioning as an instrument of repression and causing enormous suffering to its alleged violators & their families, as well as everyone here who would like to participate in free discussion of history, society, national identity, and politics, just as people in other countries (including your own anonymous one, I would think) may do.

  Just to erode your accusation of anonymity as far as I can safely go: I am Australian, I work in Thailand as an academic, my political position is ’song mai ao’ (I really have very little respect for either position, based on what I have observed, but I don’t like the way the current government got in & I suspect that the PM is a ‘2-headed snake’), I don’t discuss Thai politics with my students (unethical), I observe the normal standards of respect required here in relation to the monarchy & I don’t have any desire to insult the King, &, as I have already stated, I regard the LM law as it is currently being used, as pathetically stupid, anachronistic, barbaric, a ‘front’ for keeping people under the thumb, & entirely in the worst interests of the development of Thailand. And I speak only on behalf of myself, I don’t use ‘we,’ as you habitually do.

  I would also suggest that you do a little reading in the area of Thai history. Your tub-thumping statements re. constitutional ballots are incorrect.

• 58 stephan // Apr 10, 2009 at 2:08 am

  @jason #41 & nganadeeleg #54
  first, when you intervene on behalf of others,
  be careful what you attack/defend/protect.
  the quote in #54 from my post #36 does not contain any threat.
  what threat? to whom?
  we just did ‘quote’ that one will be ‘held to account’ for his deeds.
  we would have said: ‘brought’ or ‘called’ to account.
  and once again: “we” did not say this.
  it was simply a quote of /reference to jason’s post #33 (and clearly stated as such!).
  if YOU believe that to be a threat,
  why do you critisize the reference but not jason & his original threat?
  double standards? hypocrisy?

  now to your dubious book with the strange title.
  we couldn’t suppress a smile! or do YOU NEVER smile?
  if somebody insists: YOU never smile, would you be pleased or upset?
  please spare people books which so obviously contain lies even in their title.
  who likes conspiracy theories? who likes mud-slinging?

  apropos mud-slinging
  that leads us to the great mud-slinger.
  yes, we are talking about your leadership of mud-slingers.
  this time not about lèse majesté as YOU try to change the subject.
  it was solely about you trying to put thailand into a worse light than it deserves.
  about corruption, about your dubious source, about wrong numbers.
  what else but sheer hatred? was it just lack of knowledge?
  lack of symphasy? lack of brains?
  tell us your problem! we may absolve you, SIR…….

  and we do hope so very much that we can return to the topic
  and forget your ‘finger-pointing’
  the main question remains:
  who can decide on thai believes, constitution & laws?
  the thais themselves or YOU?

• 59 stephan // Apr 10, 2009 at 2:19 am

  @ralf #56
  are you joking?
  “…if you showed evidence of informed opinions in your posts
  you might be taken seriously. You don’t do that.
  I have no opinion on the content of your posts until you say something that makes sense and can be debated..”
  you show nothing, we argue with reason
  what more do you want?
  ask a question ‘that makes sense’ and we can debate it!

• 60 Ralph Kramden // Apr 10, 2009 at 7:53 am

  Stephan: no, not joking, just waiting for you to write something coherent and informed. I can’t debate with you if you say nothing in these categories. You are ranting with no evidence.

• 61 Jason Geddes // Apr 10, 2009 at 2:55 pm

  stephan // Apr 10, 2009 at 2:08 am

  @jason #41 & nganadeeleg #54
  first, when you intervene on behalf of others,
  be careful what you attack/defend/protect.

  What do i have to be careful of?

  Stephen you make accusations and threats , merely because i post my opinion which is contrary to yours. I have made no threats nor abused you? Learn to play by the rules of common civility. Offering an opinion is not “intervening on behalf of others”.

  I concur with the others here, you have posted noting of consequence to support lèse majesté and responding to your inane attacks is merely a waste of time, detracting from the real issue that the Thai government use the law of lèse majesté, to repress not only Thai people but foreigners as well.
  It is used to create fear amongst those whom would speak out against wrongs, they use it to legitimize an illegitimate ruler, a man not worthy of the psition he holds.
  They use it to promote a false impression of divinity, That this mere mortal is somehow above all others, beyond reproach?
  A real king has no need to rule by repression, to rule by fear or to create a false sense of divinity , ie place himself above all others. A real king leads by popular demand, not by fear.
  Unfortunately while presented as a popular king the truth , in lèse majesté, has shown he is obviously a very insecure little man not worthy of his position.
  The Thai people deserve better.

• 62 stephan // Apr 11, 2009 at 1:45 am

  @jason #61
  nganadeeleg #54 has intevened on your behalf & you even thanked him for this #55
  but you complain again about alleged “threats”.
  obviously your brother did not know, that it was YOU who threatened first
  and that we were just ‘mocking’ YOU with YOUR OWN words.
  quote from YOUR post #33:
  “…self pity tears that the dictators of Thailand will cry, when they are held to account… ”
  thus we warned HIM to be careful,
  not to make a fool of HIMself. he did not listen or respond,
  but you seem to speak/attack/defend for him now.
  are you twins, sworn eternal mutual support?
  or why the two of you are not speaking for yourself but for others??
  this behavior does only confuse readers.
  is it that what you want?

  all readers here know in the meanwhile,
  that YOU are the attacker, starting with your post #3 on Mar 4, 2009 at 11:50 pm, then #5 & #10
  and we are the defender, starting to defend with #11 on Mar 17, 2009 at 11:54 pm
  we just could not stand your ongoing rants against thailand no more.
  and we did refer to your insults point by point.

  but we tell you what:
  we are tired of your rants without one single serious argument
  why do YOU think the thai people are too stoopid to govern themselves.
  why should YOU ignorant avenger think you know better than these lovely people of 63 million.
  and we swear that at least 62,9 million even don’t bother about LM or YOUR long rants.
  if YOU want to protect freedom, go & join the freedom-fighters in iraq & afghanistan
  but leave the thai people alone, please

• 63 nganadeeleg // Apr 11, 2009 at 1:08 pm

  Stephan: If you are inside Thailand you might have difficulty purchasing the book, but if you look hard enough you should be able to find it.

  IMO, there’s probably not much point engaging further until you have read it (so you at least can see another side to the story you have always been told).

• 64 nganadeeleg // Apr 11, 2009 at 1:09 pm

  PS. Stephan, you might have to be careful in seeking out the book (I don’t want to put you in any trouble or in jail!)

• 65 Jason Geddes // Apr 11, 2009 at 1:09 pm

  Oh poor Stephen learn to read English there was no threat .

  But most of all please define “we ” whom do you claim to speak for ? all of Thailand perhaps ?

• 66 Jason Geddes // Apr 11, 2009 at 9:31 pm

  http://photojourn.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/thailand-on-the-edge-ahead-of-mass-pro-democracy-protest/

  It appears as Stephen doesn’t read the news. Above is a little truth behind the reality of Thailand at the moment.

  As well today the Asean summit was invaded by protesters , and postphooned, although it is doubtful any Asean nations leaders would attend were the event rescheduled.
  Martial law has apparently being implemented and two protestors taken to hospital with gun shot wounds.

  Lets hope the protesters get what they want a truly demorcratic Thailand not the farce they have now.

• 67 Jason Geddes // Apr 11, 2009 at 9:45 pm

  Correction, in my previous post i said “Martial law has apparently being implemented” which is incorrect, i should have said ”
  a state of emergency has been declared”
  I apologize if my error has offended anyone.

• 68 stephan // Apr 12, 2009 at 8:04 am

  @nganadeeleg #63 & 64
  you really behave like an incorrigible troublemaker.
  this book is the opinion of just ONE single man.
  it is contrary to the believes of 63 million thais.

  YOU can read and believe what YOU want,
  but why do you want to force your lectures & believes on others?
  why don’t you provide its contents for all of us?
  perhaps not allowed by laws in your country??
  check out the ‘lese majesty’ laws of those
  whose ‘majesty’ is ‘god mammon’.
  far more worshipped than information, freedom & democracy

  do you recite from the ’satanic verses’ to a muslim?
  or bring some caricatures of muhammad into an islamic country?
  thailand, its buddhists (95%of the thai population)
  & the king as patron, protector,
  “Upholder of the Buddhist religion, and Defender of the Faith”.
  are much more liberal than other societies.

  but you push on & on to force everybody to worship YOUR god
  and read your dirty books and hatred pamphlets.
  look how you behave when someone just doesn’t WANT to obey.
  seems to be integral part of a ‘christian education’
  to know the difference between good & evil, heaven & hell
  but we do NOT believe in YOUR hell……

  btw: you may find this book, together with Harry Nicolaides’
  Verisimilitude in the thai national library in bangkok,
  because in thailand, as in every country
  subscribing to international copyright conventions,
  a publisher is required to submit
  two copies of a printed work to the national library.

  and finally, we (the author & his friends)
  don’t like neither unions nor censorship.
  but we believe that weak people like
  children & exploited need to be protected,
  by the strong & by the law, but not by troublemakers!

• 69 nganadeeleg // Apr 12, 2009 at 11:22 am

  “you really behave like an incorrigible troublemaker.
  this book is the opinion of just ONE single man.
  it is contrary to the believes of 63 million thais”

  If those 63 million read the book they might get a better understanding of WHY they believe what they believe.

  Stephan: FWIW, here is a copy of my review of the book:
  http://nganadeeleg.blogspot.com/2009/01/revisiting-touchy-subject.html
  (originally posted as comment #33 on New Mandala’s longest thread)

  I accept that I am a little bit of a troublemaker, but my motive is not to cause harm, rather to try to make things better for the many (which might mean that things are a little worse for a few).

• 70 stephan // Apr 12, 2009 at 12:24 pm

  @nganadeeleg #70
  we take back the word ‘troublemaker’
  as far as any negative implications are connected with it.
  there are indeed a few constructive troublemakers,
  without this world would be a sadder place.
  we have read your review and found it well thought out.
  we recommend it (the review, NOT the book!) to other readers.

  the succession is the biggest problem
  and openly discussed here in thailand,
  just not in public, thais would not like that!
  your suggestion is the widely preferred option.
  but it’s all up to the king and it is a difficult decision.
  he himself said: “i’m only human”.

  what we do not understand is just one little aspect.
  you know that this ‘biography’ is not authorized by the king
  and not welcome by the majority of thai people who love HIM.
  nonetheless you don’t mention it and owe an explanation. why?

  and finally: did you ever ask any believer WHY he believes?
  strange question, isn’t it?

• 71 nganadeeleg // Apr 12, 2009 at 5:29 pm

  @ Stephan: On the second question, yes I have asked WHY and get the usual responses. If I probe a little further and suggest perhaps reading the book to round out their knowledge, the usual response I get is: I don’t want to know!.

  I’m sorry, but I don’t really understand your first question.

• 72 Ben Shingleton // Apr 13, 2009 at 12:43 am

  Hi, I would like to add something else to this discussion.

  Do any of you realise, the King of Thailand never actually chose to be the King in the first place…….It was a position he had no choice but to take.

  Think about that for a second……………….

  Being a King, despite what you may believe, isn’t exactly an enviable position…..

  Do you realise how seriously hard the man has had to work, throughout his entire life? The responsibility? The responsibility of his family? The responsibility of an entire nation?

  All looking to him.

  These people, they have to work every single minute, of every single hour, of every single day…

  And for one reason and one reason only, for the benefit of Thailand.

  I’m sorry, but all of you who believe the King has other agendas, other than the good of the Thai people, are mistaken, and therefore your arguements are redundant.

  You show me one single incident when the King has ordered, or been seen to be responsible for the distress or harming of a single individual throughout the entire duration of his reign?

  Does anyone have any evidence of that?

• 73 z // Apr 13, 2009 at 1:22 am

  “…You show me one single incident when the King has ordered, or been seen to be responsible for the distress or harming of a single individual throughout the entire duration of his reign?”

  Someone in such a high position of power (and those surrounding him)will certainly be very careful not to leak out any evidence that reveals the discrepencies between reality and carefully constructed images. Despite this, those who spend just a little time researching abt Thailand will find plenty of evidence which suggests that Thai people have been forced to believe in only one side of the story.

• 74 Mariner // Apr 13, 2009 at 2:31 am

  Yes, you put it beautifully. I say in all sincerity that I really couldn’t agree more! I’ve been in Thailand for many years and never pass up an opportunity to read or listen to authoritative sources on royal doings (the Nation, Bangkok Post, Thai TV, Thai radio). Over the years I’ve been here, I really can’t recall any criticism of substance of his Majesty at all -indeed, I could say the same of the crown prince and princesses. Thailand is a fortunate nation indeed . Long Live the King!

• 75 Jason Geddes // Apr 13, 2009 at 10:52 am

  The current events in Thailand hardly relate to Thailand being a fortunate country at all.
  The fact that there are people inThai jails under the charge of lèse majesté makes an absolute mockery of what you have just posted Z.Unless of course your claiming that they have been wrongly charged?

  And sorry but a king that has influence to remove the charges of lèse majesté against his own people or foreigners but doesn’t, is as guilty as any other person whom uses that law to repress free speech.

• 76 z // Apr 13, 2009 at 11:41 am

  @Jason Geddes: what I meant to say is that although I have no personal malice agaist the King, I’m sick of being told (by mainstream media/discourses)in Thailand abt how great he is. Ben (above me) challenged people to provide a piece of evidence that shows the king as being involved in less than benevolent incidents.
  of course, I couldn’t agree with u more abt someone allowing others to use LM in his name is equally ruthless or even more ruthless than those who directly order others to go to jail for no good reason.

• 77 z // Apr 13, 2009 at 12:46 pm

  From my own recent observation, Thai sites and blogs have been actively discussing (and vehemently condemning)how certain groups of people/networks have been trying to damage and even abolish ‘the institution’ (in Thai : “Lom Lang Sataban”). Taking into accounts news abt a number of ordinary, relatively powerless Thais being punished for lese majeste, I wonder why no one raises the issue of the ‘instistution’ using its immense power and extended ‘network’ to shut up the people ruthlessly. Well, it’s just a rhetorical question though..the answer is obvious enough. To be honest, I myself am not againt the instituition per se at all if only it could remain neutral, open and refrain from abusing its position (either directly or indirectly) for its own benefits. But this is not the case otherwise how could people are thrown in jail simply because they want to criticize it. The gov could have accepted the recent proposal abt LM reform by academics. “The institution” could have come out to make it clear that it does not want LM law to be used to ‘protect’ its reputation, but all we see is ’silence’ and more people being jailed for LM.
  Yet, I’m not sure if Red-shirted people’s victory (if they really could win) will do good to Thailand’s LM situation. MR T(the big sponsor of Red Shirt Rally this time?) is clearly conservative and does not seem to bother much abt the plight of the underdog or those who are maltreated so I don’t see much hope in Red.

• 78 Jason Geddes // Apr 13, 2009 at 4:17 pm

  Sorry Z i misread that i should have addressed it to Ben.

  lèse majesté is indeed an example of the king being responsible for “the distress or harming of a single individual” throughout the entire duration of his reign? To think otherwise would be decetpive. He has the power to pardon or have the charges dropped.

  I too don’t know if the Red Shirts ,are the answer but at least they are giving it a shot.

  from an Australian news site :
  
  UPDATE 12.37pm: THAI troops have used tear gas to disperse anti-government protesters in Bangkok, injuring 68.

  Protesters hurled molotov cocktails and stones after soldiers moved in to clear a key road junction in the capital which demonstrators calling for the resignation of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva had blocked overnight.

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