New Mandala

64 responses so far ↓

• 1 Rofen // Mar 4, 2009 at 6:30 pm

  An excellent letter, hopefully it will make an impact and stop the abuse of this law. You may wish to include suggestions on what exact reform is sought to assist the Thai authorities in future policy/ amendment; for example one level could be to only permit the use of the law in individual cases if the Monarchy approves it. Harry’s case is an example of the complete abuse of this law and his ongoing detention until recently has no doubt reflected poorly on the Monarch and Thailand’s ‘democratic’ values. The undue damage and poor global perception caused by recent LM cases on the Monarchy is an unfortunate risk (or deliberate action) taken by those few corrupt Thai government officials that think their actions will be perceived as being aligned to protecting the Monarchy. To move forward, someone needs to be exposed and dealt with harshly for abusing the law as only then will there be real deterrence. Start with the policemen who bring on these charges.

• 2 DK. // Mar 4, 2009 at 7:22 pm

  I think you all are very stupid. Calling yourselveds scholars but have toxic brains. This is why the Western World are in crisis and go to Hell.

• 3 doctorJ // Mar 4, 2009 at 7:39 pm

  It would be great for all those interested in the conference(me included), if New Mandala can provide the details of the conference. Looking forward for the opinion of prof. Thongchai and Andrew on the LM.
  And my full support for the letter.

• 4 Frank G Anderson // Mar 4, 2009 at 8:26 pm

  Reporters Without Borders/Reporters sans frontières

  3 March 2009

  THAILAND
  Leading Swiss TV reporter arrested, then forbidden to leave country

  Christoph Müller, a leading Swiss TV reporter and producer, was handcuffed and arrested on arrival in Thailand on 27 February. He was freed on bail 24 hours later but the police confiscated his passport and he is forbidden to leave the country until further notice.

  His employer, the German-language Swiss TV station SF, has described the measures as a “judicial farce” and out of all proportion to his apparent offence.

  The authorities have not told Müller exactly why he was arrested but it appears to have the result of a 2006 complaint about a report by Müller in 2002 about a bogus Swiss doctor based in Thailand who was raising funds for a suspect charity.

  Reporters Without Borders calls on the Thai authorities to immediately rescind the order banning him from leaving the country and to return his passport.

• 5 Frank G Anderson // Mar 4, 2009 at 10:01 pm

  DK:
  Your attempt at condescension is well-understood but not well-executed. Besides the English grammar and spelling errors, the fact that little minds usually attend Western places of learning but come back home and remain toxic to themselves and their country bespeaks not of Western failure but of lack of their ability to change for the better. This is what is called a shortcoming.
  As to the Western world being in crisis, maybe you are right but “we” are not alone. This crisis is global, and those who have pea brains find it entertaining to deny others rights while calling those who advocate sensible interhuman relations as toxic. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm………..How about a new slogan? “Down with stupidity!”

• 6 wukong // Mar 4, 2009 at 11:38 pm

  Your readers will not like this, but but I support keeping the lese majeste law. It has been successful for a long time so why get rid of a useful law? If there was no such law P. Pibul may have been able to destroy the monarchy by saying and doing whatever he wanted. Same with Thaksin, he would have done the same thing, except we have this useful law. It was important to protect the young HM King Bhumibol and his beautiful wife and young family in the 1960s when not everyone understood how wonderful they were. It also helped protect him from those communists in the 1970s who said whatever they wanted, whatever the truth. Now obviously he doesn’t need it because everyone knows how great he is. But it was important in his youth. One could say the law helped get him where he is today. So why do we have to get rid of it?

  And of course then we have to keep the law for HM King Bhumibol’s son HRH Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn. People have always secretly gossiped about him saying bad things about his behaviour and his married life and kids. Just think what they would say out loud without the lese majeste law! Too many people say really bad stuff about him. We need the law to protect him when he becomes king while he builds up his bun and barami so people stop gossiping about things he did in his past and he can become as naturally loved as his father.

• 7 tt // Mar 5, 2009 at 1:52 am

  hope the government won’t just turn this list into a ‘forbidden to enter thailand’ list

• 8 DTM // Mar 5, 2009 at 5:08 am

  DoctorJ and others: My blog is mainly about teaching in Bangkok but I was present for the conference at the FCCT and did a bit of a “liveblog”from the couch (yes, there is a couch there, and I had it all to myself). I still need to go in and edit it for quality but it’s on there now and may give you some sense of what was being talked about. Of course it’s all filtered through my iffy brain and unsteady hands but there’s hope yet. Here: TEFLsphere.blogspot.com

  Have a look. Personally I thought both Dr. Thongchai and Andrew Walker came across as extremely knowledgeable, sincere, and capable people who clearly care deeply for Thailand and are doing something brave, commendable, and necessary for this country. Great work, guys. Here’s hoping for the best for Thailand, the Thai people, and those of us who love this country and choose to make it our home.

• 9 Vox Populi // Mar 5, 2009 at 11:06 am

  “It has been successful for a long time ”

  The truth of that statement depends entirely on how “successful” is defined.

  “Now obviously he doesn’t need it ”

  The Justice Minister appears to hold a rather different opinion.

  “Just think what they would say out loud without the lese majeste law!”

  The truth, perhaps?

• 10 doctorJ // Mar 5, 2009 at 1:19 pm

  Many thanks to DTM , for your link and your nice work.

• 11 doctorJ // Mar 5, 2009 at 2:57 pm

  Wukong:

  Perhaps you should READ the letter carefully before making such a out- of – the topic comment. It never said ABOLISHING the LM. It said AMENDING and preventing from being abused for political purposes. There’s no single word that pose a threat to the instution so revered by all Thais, on the contrary , it meant well to the instution, and calling for stop dragging the instution into the political mess. If you have troubles with the letter, find the Thai version.

• 12 DTM // Mar 5, 2009 at 4:54 pm

  When I arrived at the conference copies of the letter were set out on the table. I saw both English and Thai versions; I reflexively grabbed an English version and ignored the Thai version. Later, I realized I really wanted a Thai copy as well to give to my wife (well, she’ll be my wife this afternoon, we’re off to the amphur office after lunch, heh) for her to have a read. But there were no more copies to be found.

  Anyway, I’ve seen the link online to a pdf file for the English version, but not the Thai version. Is there an available pdf posted here somewhere, of the THAI text?

  Thanks for any and all help.

• 13 doctorJ // Mar 5, 2009 at 6:32 pm

  DTM:

  I saw the Thai version posted at http://www.sameskybooks.org. Have a look for yourself.

• 14 Susie Wong // Mar 6, 2009 at 1:11 am

  โจรอยู่เหนือกฎหมาย บ้านเมืองย่อมไม่สงบ
  When thieves are above the law, the country thus has no peace.

  ร่วมกันสู้..สู้ ปราบมารแผ่นดิน
  Together we fight..fight to eliminate the wicked evil doer of the land.

  แผ่นดินร้อนเพราะมารขยับ
  The land is heat up because evil doers make a move.

  Above mentioned are the Red Shirt posters in support of Jakrapob Penkair.

  It is absolutely wrong to face criminal charge for speaking truth, for having different points of view. Education has given us the capacity to understand. Morality demands us to serve virtue. These are the essence of being a scholar.

  I call on the world to save good people from the darkness evil force in Thailand. The cruelty of an oppressive authoritarian injustice lese majeste law will lead to conflicts across the land: the north, the northeast, the central and the southern region. I urge the intellectual insight and foresight of the situation.

  In all conscience,
  May God save Jakrapob Penkair!

• 15 Taro Mongkoltip // Mar 6, 2009 at 3:53 am

  I don’t really understand why it’s so important for foreigners to be involved in someone else’s society.

  Are there any specific reason that you really need to discuss about Royal Thai monarchy. Is it related to your well-being or life threatening in anyway at all?

  Each country has their own way of living. Thai’s lese majeste law has been part of Thailand for very long time. It has been accepted in their society, accepted by majority of people. It’s the way that their democracy is and has been. There is nothing to do with you at all. If you can’t accept their laws. Then don’t go to their country. Simple is that. I’m sure that each of your very own country has some sort of human right problem, why don’t you just use your spare to fix it before offering your service for someone else when they don’t even need it.

  Comparing to United States of America, who always think that they have right to do whatever they like. American’s laws give America the right to invade Iraq and many other countries in the past and maybe in future, killing thousand of innocent people in their countries. What give you the right to do that? what kind of human right is that?

  I don’t see how US, Canada, UK, Australia, Hong Kong, Philippines, Holland, Italy, Singapore, Finland and India are better compare to Thailand. So before you start judging someone else’s country. Better go back and take care of your own.

  Sincerely Yours,
  Taro

  PS. The more I see you guys want to get involved in Thai society, the more I believe that Thai’s King should have never released Harry Nicolaides. (Freedom of speech huh? hurt a bit right?)

• 16 Ralph Kramden // Mar 6, 2009 at 5:30 am

  The letter is a compromise. I am sure that some of those who signed the letter would prefer that the LM law be abolished.

• 17 Joy // Mar 6, 2009 at 8:54 am

  Taro Mongkoltip, Just read yr comment above. I wonder if u can comment on the fact that at the moment there are a number of Thais who are imprisoned with no hope of being granted bail, and no warranty of fair trial. Do they deserve to rot in jail simply because they want to express their opinion honestly and boldly? You may argue that these Thais were rude, ungrateful, manipulated or whatever, but is the act of throwing people in jail simply because they say something against ‘mainstream’ notions of things normal in a democratic society? Once a person is accused of violating this particularly draconian law, it is a well-known fact in Thailand and abroad that no fair trial can be expected .Very likely, one’s life is doomed, if not totally destroyed once such a charge is made against him/her? Is this fine by u? I guess u would say the wisest people are those who shut their eyes, ears and refrain from speaking against all sort of injustices and stay comfy and complacent in their own living room, right?
  Being sensitive abt local context or cultural tradition is fine, but when ‘cultural uniqueness’ or ‘ the ‘uniqueness of a way of life/norms/ tradition’ is used to justify authoritarianism or tyranny, or violate the basics of the right of an individual to freedom of expression, do u still regard this as fine??? Please do answer. I’m curious to get to know yr line of thought.

• 18 Frank G Anderson // Mar 6, 2009 at 10:28 am

  Once more a foreigners vs. us reasoning without logic. As a foreigner in Thailand, I can choose to keep a low profile and my mouth shut, or exercise my rights, the very same rights that Thai people have but most do not use them becuase in many cases they would end up dead. That’s the so-called acceptance you are talking of – acceptance of reality that society here forces on everyone that it can.
  Besides the right to protest and advocate, there is the obligation to do so. Many of us foreigners have friends, relatives and family here in Thailand that are currently exposed to the same kind of arbitrary arrest and detention, as well as wrongful conviction under the lese majeste law, that people here are subject to. Being my brother’s keeper is not much of a Thai social value, though it is preached about in Thai Buddhism and not followed a lot. Safeguarding self and others from wrongful laws, actions and prison is an oblligation. It is also a right. So forget the foreigners nature of this, and since you seem to be Thai, waked up for once and smell the roses of responsibility.

• 19 Frank G Anderson // Mar 6, 2009 at 10:37 am

  Neglected to mention that ASTV yesterday, besides its daily reminder about how good the monarchy is and how wonderful the lese majeste law is, went ahead and discussed the lokng list of foreign scholars that signed the list, reiterating that they were foreigners and “Golly, do they dare think our monarchy is like theirs?”
  In a country where people are encouraged to keep down and avoid getting hit by flying socially-repugnant charges like lese majeste, this thing about not discussing the issue certainly shows differences, that’s for sure.
  Handcuffing people and putting them in shackles might be fine for those members of Thai society who are willing to bend over and be raped, but for the others who don’t like it, ask yourselves whether you have the right to make others believe what you believe. That’s what this is all about, and because the truism is being vanguarded by foreigners Thai traditionalists see it as a foreigner-Thai issue which it is not. It is about getting out from under an oppressive system here.

• 20 Nudi Samsao // Mar 6, 2009 at 12:15 pm

  The key is Anderson’s last sentence: “It is about getting out from under an oppressive system here.” Thank you, Anderson, for putting it succinctly. Also, it is good to see Noam Chomsky on the list. I am reminded of his great contributions to linguistics in the 1950’s. No doubt, this is surely a group of very sane people.

• 21 doctorJ // Mar 6, 2009 at 2:20 pm

  Dear Taro Mongkoltip

  Have you read the letter? Perhaps you should carefully read it in the first place, before you make such a irrelevant comment. Does the letter said anything about ABOLISHING the LM? Does it mention anything threatening to your revered monachy? On the contrary, it rather meant well to the institution. It’s somebody else in your home soil who abused the LM , and pose threat to the reputation of the institution. Put aside the prejudice attitude and you will clearly see the real message conveyed.

  As you sent your dissents about the nosy foreigner’s critics, you yourself did criticize others. If you really mean us to keep ourselves from your business, I would simply suggest you to pull out your internet plug, and stick your head in your self-admired glory of the opressed society and forget about the rest of the world.

  If any bit of your conscience still contain some rationale, and ready to interact with the global society. Try to be more rational , I and most others here are ready to discuss with you intellectually.

• 22 doctorJ // Mar 6, 2009 at 3:47 pm

  Let me remind some Thai readers here about Prof. Thongchai Winichakul. He was the one of Thammasat student, activist, who in 1976, stood against the brutal right-wing military , trying to protect our democracy with the cost of his freedom and lives of many of his friend activists. I think only a few Thais had this credentials. So please think twice before ranting out something irrelevant. He deserves every right as a Thai to concern about his country.

• 23 Fonzi // Mar 6, 2009 at 4:58 pm

  What I find ironic, and a bit hypocritical, is that the Thais who always tell foreigners to shut up and get out are usually the first to accept accolades and awards from foreigners. For example, when the king receives an award for this or that accomplishment, the royalists are the first to jump and down and scream about how much the world loves the king. Put simply, the royalists love the foreigners when it is all praise, hate the foreigners when there is a whiff of criticism. That seems like an infantile knee jerk response to me. Also, another thing I find hypocritical about the royalist academics and media is that during the course of their work they criticize foreign countries and foreigners all the time. I think it is hilarious that Khun Taro goes on a rant about foreigners criticizing Thailand then has the audacity to criticize the US, as if nobody in the history of Thailand(or anywhere else) has ever criticized the US. It happens all the time. All countries get criticized and lambasted by academic and reporters, regardless of the race, continent or culture. Thais need to grow up. If Thai people have the right to criticize George Bush, Gordon Brown, the heads of other states, the heads of other governments, then foreigners have the right to comment on Thailand’s affairs. The knee jerk royalists need to wake up and get over their notion of Thai exceptionalism and their hypocritical notion of “do as I say, not do as I do.”

• 24 Frank G Anderson // Mar 6, 2009 at 5:24 pm

  Good reminder about Khun Thongchai. As to his sensitivities and judgment, I have to add my admiration and support. When I recently volunteered to have my name added to that list, he replied that being in Thailand I should think the decision over carefully, and either way he would accommodate my wishes.
  This is the kind of common sense very much missing in Thailand for some time. When people fall over themselves to shackle and handcuff others whose ideas and spoken opinions they do not like, and support a society that thinks this is proper, then Thongchai stands out head above those who think freedom is only there for people who comply and pretend to be happy.

• 25 Taro Mongkoltip // Mar 6, 2009 at 9:16 pm

  Dear Susie Wong,

  How well do you know about this Jakrapob Penkair? Well do some research, the story has two side. You might change your mind about this man.

  Dear Joy,

  Didn’t I mention that Harry Nicolaides got released last month? So you are saying that isn’t a fair deal he’s got. Almost every convict were released after the supreme court has ruled out their sentence. Why? Isn’t it because of LM law that give Thai King some sort of power to rule out a royal pardon to anyone that he see it fit.

  It might look like that LM was unfair to westerners but it is the law of Thailand. You go into their country, then obey their laws. It’s the law that majority of people has voted and accepted it.

  Talking about unfair trial, you are saying that in Quantanamo bay detention camp, every prisoner has a very fair trial? Some of prisoners there were put in jailed without being convicted. Some of them were humiliated, tortured or even killed. What kind of human right is that? I believe that every person who is convicted under LM law will have 100% chance to survive than being convicted under you don’t even know what charge in Quantanamo bay detention camp.

  Dear Frank G Anderson,

  I understand your point of view about exercising your right of freedom. But if you have readed Wukong’s comment about why LM law exist, you might understand a bit more. As of me being a Thai who is completely sane and educated, I don’t see what is so wrong about LM law. We love our King, and we don’t want anyone to bad mouth him. So we have created a law to protect him. The law is accepted by people of Thailand. Smell the roses of responsibility? mmm I’m more like smell the roses of privacy. Thank you.

  Dear DoctorJ,

  Yes, I have read the letter. But I also agreed with Ralph Kramden’s comment

  “The letter is a compromise. I am sure that some of those who signed the letter would prefer that the LM law be abolished.” just in case you have missed this comment.

  Also, I have admired that prof. Thongchai has done such an enormous thing to stood against those brutal right-wing military. But what is he doing now for the country apart from creating a controversy against his own mother land? Living in US and working for a US company earning and living and i assume he’s willing to die there.

  Let me remind you DoctorJ, King Bhumipol has 7000 projects he has invented to help his people in his country. He dedicated his whole life to work for 65 million people of Thailand, and he doesn’t get paid for it. For more than 60 years that he’s been in power. He had quietly fought with those communists who tried so hard to take over the country, to protect his people. What is so bad about this person, what has he done so bad that for you all to criticise him.

  Dear all of you,

  Thailand is an very open-mind country comparing with many other countries in the world. We has accepted and changed many things in the past to suit those westerners who completely sane and think that they have right to everything. The only thing we have asked you not to talk about it is about our King. You might not understand why? But believe me, it’s a simply unconditional love that we have to our King you will never understand.

  Best Regards,
  Taro Mongkoltip

• 26 Taro Mongkoltip // Mar 6, 2009 at 9:21 pm

  I forgot to tell you one thing. The king has actually open for criticism. If you have followed the news about this, you would have known that.

  And if you those who missed it, wikipedia has a very well information about King Bhumipol and LM law, please follow the link

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhumibol_Adulyadej

  you might find something a bit more informative than my personal opinion.

• 27 nganadeeleg // Mar 7, 2009 at 12:01 am

  Living in US and working for a US company earning and living and i assume he’s willing to die there

  Listening to (and reading) these defenders of the LM law (and the monarchy) is just about enough reason to start an anti-monarchy blog – just for the fun of it!
  (might be a way to increase readership too, except in Thailand)

• 28 Ping Ping // Mar 7, 2009 at 12:21 am

  Taro Mongkoltip,

  The king openly said on his birth day a few years ago that he was ok with criticism. This law is against his wish. If you are ’sincerely’ royal to him. You should support the amendment of this law.

  Above all, you cannot speak for all Thais. They are growing number of Thais who are disillusion with the monarchy and the king himself. So far only one side of the story has been heard for centuries, let hear the other side. Then people can debate on pros and cons and think by themselves what they want to do with monarchy. This is what it calls democracy, which I am not sure if you believe in it.

• 29 doctorJ // Mar 7, 2009 at 4:06 pm

  Taro Mongkoltip

  My discussion is based on the hard facts only, others are considered as speculations. The letter deliberately stated their concerns and suggestions for amendment. Any one (you included) can make speculations about the motivations behind their actions, which is impossible for anyone to prove it. So there’s no point to discuss speculations, but you have all the rights to speculate things. That’s why I support the main agenda of the letter, the draconian law must be amended to prevent further abuses for political purposes.

  As you said”I forgot to tell you one thing. The king has actually open for criticism. If you have followed the news about this, you would have known that.” So why don’t you and all the authority follow HM speech. Don’t you think that without the oppressed law, you yourself feel more easy to openly argue with others. Don’t you realise you too need to be extremely careful about your comments, isn’t it because you too are subjected to the same draconian law.

• 30 Duangta // Mar 7, 2009 at 5:18 pm

  Knowledge is the only way!

  A couple of years back I went to the National Museum in BKK. I spent the whole day there and as I am very interested in history I tried to follow the presentation very closely. Something struck me as odd as the history of Thailand seemed to end in the beginning of the 1930’s and resumed in the 1950’s. Very little information was given for this time period. Later I found out why and read more about this controversial time in Thai history.
  The only way to fully grow up as a nation is to understand your own history. By blocking information, limiting access to sources, suppressing ideas and thoughts, the mistakes, twists and turns that happened in the past and have led to misery and suffering are likely to happen again. History repeats itself.
  This includes the history of the Thai Monarchy.
  So, being able to openly discuss and research past, present and future – also the monarchy and it’s role in Thai society- is the fundamental condition to improve as a nation.
  Thailand urgently needs to develop a culture of discussion and discourse, of being able to criticize and accept criticism as a way for improvement. Today Thais regard criticism as an insult, a way to loose face. But if you do not discuss (and then also criticize), how to improve, how to change, how to grow??
  As we do here, we discuss: We exchange arguments, views, opinions, sources, texts to understand better, to gain knowledge and to stimulate personal (and in the end cultural) growth.
  Regarding the call to reform the les majeste law:
  a) The Law is being abused (as admitted by PM Abhisit and others)
  b) The King himself asked in his birthday speech of December 2005 to be criticized, as he is also just a human being
  My opinion:
  The law is not about protecting the king anymore, it is a ball in the hand of anybody who wants to silence any opposition to the dominion in power.

• 31 Duangta // Mar 7, 2009 at 6:03 pm

  Academics have been investigated for lèse majesté for even questioning the role of the monarchy in Thai society. In 2007, Assistant Professor Boonsong Chaisingkananon of Silpakorn University was investigated for lèse majesté for asking students in an exam if the institution of the monarchy was necessary for Thai society and how it may be reformed to be consistent with the democratic system. The University cooperated with the police investigation, and even turned over students’ answer sheets and the marks the professor gave them.

• 32 Ralph Kramden // Mar 7, 2009 at 10:33 pm

  Taro Mongkoltip seems to think that if those who oppose the LM law and event the monarchy had a little more of the royalist propaganda they’d understand. And if they don’t, lock ‘em up. Better build bigger jails, because the political actions of the group you support are creating a situation where more an more Thais will have to be locked up.

  The idea that if the U.S. does reprehensible things, then Thailand should also be able to do them and escape criticism is rather quaint. The Guantanamo experience has been the the subject of considerable academic and media criticism. That kind of debate is not possible in Thailand regarding LM.

• 33 Frank G Anderson // Mar 8, 2009 at 4:32 pm

  If anyone wants to see how one red shirt leader in Korat handles close observation see my Youtube recording at http://www.youtube.com/user/frankganderson

  I have yet to hear any Yellow Shirts talk like this. and in fact have generally noticed a lot more of the roughneck in them than in the others. Be that as it may, this particular woman in the video is the one that lodged a fraudulent lese majeste complaint against me with the local police who referred it to Bangkok CSI. I was told by local police that insufficient evidence (what was there was fabricated) means that no case is to be opened.

• 34 Joy // Mar 8, 2009 at 9:04 pm

  She is one of the Red-shirted leaders??She acted like she was insane. I hope there are not many like her in the red shirt movement although recent news about red-shirt violence and aggressiveness seems to prove otherwise.

• 35 Taro Mongkoltip // Mar 9, 2009 at 12:19 am

  Well I think you guys are just … weird and crazy..nosy and so on.. Sorry that I have disturbed your mission with my opinion. Good luck with that.

  Best Regards,
  Taro

• 36 Western of the bitch // Mar 9, 2009 at 3:32 am

  Why your guy so meddlesome? Different country different culture.

  Thailand have to be King .The King is spirit for Thai people.

  You never understand because you aren’t Thai. I don’t know why
  Western of the bitch guy they likes meddlesome to any Asia country.

• 37 1PAD // Mar 9, 2009 at 5:37 am

  almost all countries in this world have the law like LM law, maybe call something else, to protect their leaders like King, prime minister, president, etd …. so i think it’s Thai ’s ppl business… the foreigners who have tried to give opinions on this issue should mind their countries’ business first. we have our own ways to run our country … the foreigners’s opinions against this LM law may be considered as idiot opinions . thank you

• 38 Joy // Mar 9, 2009 at 8:29 am

  No offence intended and if my following comment upsets anyone, I apologize. So far from my observation, NO poster who wants LM law to remain unchanged and object to citicism of it is able to provide any convincing argument. In most cases, these defenders resort to abuse, intimidation and childish strategies when they realize that they are UNABLE to use any logic or reason or even common sense to support their argument. I suggest that we ignore this sort of hysterical abuse and mindless defensiveness.

• 39 Ralph Kramden // Mar 9, 2009 at 8:43 am

  Taro and PAD1 probably don’t deserve responses. One might expect it from PAD1, for the statement is one that is regularly heard from PAD and PAD supporters have behaved increasingly as racist stooges. PAD1 might want to list the laws that s/he thinks are equivalent, and then some debate is possible, but my guess is that no debate is even wanted for all contrary opinion and/or fact will be dismissed as “idiot opinions.” PAD1 is simply parrotting statements made on ASTV and repeated by Democrats leaders.

  Taro seems unwilling to debate. When contrary opinions are proffered or facts requested, Taro resorts to name-calling. Taro also seems satisfied that some of his/her posts have disturbed readers. If Taro read a bit more of previous postings, that would seem a highly dubious conclusion to draw.

  One sees that the level of discussion coming from the royalists and PADites has been dragged down in recent times, being far more abusive and less willing to engage with contrary opinions. One might consider that reflective of Thai politics in general. At the same time, royalist fears have overwhelmed reason.

• 40 PT // Mar 9, 2009 at 11:40 am

  Taking good care of your family and stay away from my country.
  Farewell!

• 41 Taro Mongkoltip // Mar 9, 2009 at 12:07 pm

  Dear Ralph,

  I’m open for debate and discussion. However, how could I debate with you people in here when it seems that you fully believe that your opinion is absolutely perfect and better than others.

  What I did was trying to show you how good our King is and showed you my side of story. But were you open for suggestion? I don’t think so.

  So why do I bother coming back and debate here when many people here believe that they are some academic perfectionist. In which most likely I’ve seen a bunch of stubborn people who are convinced that they are far better than other people in developping countries.

  You know what, with people like you, I will keep paying more taxes to Thai government to build a bigger prison for you to stay in there for life.

• 42 Clifford Sloane // Mar 9, 2009 at 1:28 pm

  @Taro
  What I did was trying to show you how good our King is and showed you my side of story.

  Khun Taro, you are missing the point.
  The point is not the King. All of you who want to defend the Lese Majeste laws can only defend the King.
  Let’s set the record straight. Nobody posting in this thread wants to insult the King. In fact, I cannot find any poster who seriously wants to criticise the King, other than in a fair and objective way.

  But that is not the point. The point is that the laws protect not only the beloved King but also everyone else in his Family, beloved or not. They are a weapon used by non-Royal hangers-on who make false claims, and they are used by those who will say, “I love the King more than you!” against their enemies.

  If you want to understand the people who criticize the LM laws, first, bear in mind that it is NOT primarily about the King!!! The scholars who wrote the letter did NOT do so because they want to criticise the King. Even Khun Wukong, in posting #6 above, recognized that it is not about the King. To quote Khun Wukong:

  And of course then we have to keep the law for HM King Bhumibol’s son HRH Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn. People have always secretly gossiped about him saying bad things about his behaviour and his married life and kids. Just think what they would say out loud without the lese majeste law! Too many people say really bad stuff about him. We need the law to protect him when he becomes king while he builds up his bun and barami so people stop gossiping about things he did in his past and he can become as naturally loved as his father.

  So it makes no sense for you to defend the laws by defending the King. They are not the same issue.

• 43 rofen // Mar 9, 2009 at 1:48 pm

  I agree with Clifford Sloane that this debate is not about the King.

  Taro Mongkoltip and 1PAD, the best thing you and others should do in order to prevent the abuse of the lese majeste laws (which created much of the current debate and undue criticism of the King) is to make a formal complaint against the Thai police who bring nonsensical or politically motivated cases before the Courts. Many foreigners agree with you, it is not the law itself that is a problem, but the abuse in the enforcement of it – including against foreigners. So the best way for you to help protect the lese majeste laws, is to actively report abuses direct to the Prime Minister’s office or the Palace. I suggest you start with Frank Anderson’s example (above) and also the policeman Boonlert Kalayanamit from the crime suppression unit that arrested Harry Nicolaides. Apparently the arrest warrant he prepared in Harry’s case was issued in March 2008, six months before the arrest. It was reported that Harry travelled internationally many times after March 2008 and even received another Royal Thai visa. He was arrested when the state of emergency started in Bangkok in late August 2008. This strongly suggests the arrest warrant was backdated as it’s not possible to travel internationally with an arrest warrant pending, even in Thailand.

  Do your country and King a great favour, and report this clear abuse of the law to the Prime Minister’s office asking that they independently investigate and take stern action against the police involved, so that those thinking they will abuse the law in future, will think again. If you can’t or won’t do it, I hope other Thai citizens interested in protecting the Monarchy will read this post and make a formal complaint. Arguably, the police themselves should be prosecuted for lese majeste as abusing their law enforcement powers has caused the defamation of the King. There are current examples of the abuse of the lese majeste law occurring right now and dealing with them swiftly, publically and harshly is a better way to prevent further abuses than continued academic debate from a group of foreigners. It’s also better because reporting such abuse would be a genuine effort in protecting the Monarchy. If you don’t do anything about it or continue with name calling, you will simply attract more foreign attention.

• 44 Peter T // Mar 9, 2009 at 4:03 pm

  Looking at the list of scholars here who endorsed this letter to PM Abhisit objecting to the enforcement of the lèse majesté law, one has to be mightily impressed and resigned to conclude that their demand must be very compelling. But after re-evaluating the content of the letter in conjunction with facts and prior legal cases, I have to say that I am disappointed by these scholars and authors. It’s clear that our respected educators and scholars have allowed themselves to be used by a network of small group of Thai people who have the ax to grind. I strongly believe these scholars have misdiagnosed the root cause of the problem. Without offering detailed solutions/options to make this law more practical and effective as well as fair, I also have to question their motive meddling in the internal affairs of other countries. I wonder whether there’s an element of bias and an attempt to gang up against the Thai government under PM Abhisit here. Below are my thoughts & reasons.

  Thailand is not immune from the effects of global economic meltdown. There are more important matters of higher priority affecting over 60 million lives in the Kingdom that PM Abhisit & his cabinet members must urgently deal with. But the authors and supporting casts here are trying to divert his and everyone’s attention to this one law that affects only a few disrespectful foreign visitors and some radical Thai instigators who wanted to seek headlines & fame, and who take pleasure seeing Thailand remains in the state of chaos. The authors who masterminded this offensive move want to put undue pressure on PM Abhisit so that he may falls apart just like what the fugitive exPM Thaksin publicly predicted or prescribed.

  Many of these scholars spent considerable time (years and even decades) working, researching & living in Thailand. The scholars appeared to be a sympathetic bunch. But where were they when massive refugees from Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia flooded the country and took shelters there for years? Thailand has to carry tremendous burden taking care the refugees, totaling in millions, pretty much by herself most of those years immediately before and after the end of Vietnam War. As a small developing country with limited resources, Thailand did not complain about the enormous hardship she endured. Though Vietnam War ended almost 35 years ago, large numbers of refugees from countries near and far (Burma, Bangladesh, Laos, Pakistan, China, North Korea, etc.) have continuously made their ways into this small but friendly and free nation. Despite this fact, Thailand still does not create noise to gain global attention but continue to quietly deal with the problems immediately incurred and followed subsequently. Yet, the world has not seen or heard any foreign scholars who claimed to be friends of Thailand come out to publicly raise the awareness and help Thailand. No one stepped forward to defend Thailand when the rare incident of Rohingya refugee problem surfaced last month!

  In their letter, the scholars mentioned they’re sympathetic to Thailand which I and other fair-minded Thais would disagree. It’s quite obvious to us that the authors and scholars are actually sympathetic to those who deliberately violated the law and being prosecuted. The problems derived not from the law itself or the monarchy but from the administrative function as well as the enforcement side of the equation.

  In the past 60 years, it’s not a secret that King Bhumipol has done much more good things than bad to the people across the country. We all know that no one is perfect, and the King is no exception. The prince and princesses including their children are also far from perfect; they made mistakes. But the royal family did not involve in massive corruption or gross misconducts like Thaksin and politicians as well as those dictators before Thaksin. The King and the royal family members have never taken legal action against anyone who insulted or fabricated lies again them. More often than not, it has been the wicked politicians who abuse their power, intentionally and conveniently misapply the law against their opponents. Occasionally, a few insane and disrespectful Thai citizens and foreign visitors who wanted to prove their bravery and gain publicity stunt have decided to test the law/system. Normal people who are rational and have positive outlook would prefer to do something else for fun and experience that is better and more worthwhile.

  In taking such action against this law, I’m not so sure our scholars have thorough knowledge about the detailed offensive acts committed by some of the accused. Specifically, these involved the case of Dar Topedo, Jukkrapob Penkae, Chotisak Onsoong, Giles Ungpakorn, Oliver Jufer & Harry Nicolaides. There are others who were charged but found not guilty after the due process was given under the nation’s judicial system. This includes the infamous repeat offender, Ajarn Sulak Sivaraksa. It’s all boiled down to the INTENT of the accused relative to the context or content.

  In March 2007 Swiss national Oliver Jufer was convicted of lèse majesté and sentenced to 10 years for spray-painting on several portraits of the king while drunk in Chiang Mai, Thailand. Jufer was pardoned by the king on 12 April 2007. In most cities across the US, it is the crime to create graffiti on public or private properties. Is it right that this foreigner who knew about this sensitive subject from living in Thailand for sometime intentionally proceeded with his act? Is it acceptable to you when your guest deliberately defaced or mutilated the pictures of your beloved parent while visiting you?

  In September 2008, Harry Nicolaides from Melbourne, Australia, was arrested at Bangkok’s international airport and charged with lèse majesté, for an offending passage in his self published book Verisimilitude. Subsequently, in January 2009, after pleading guilty, he was sentenced to three years in jail. On February 21, 2009, he was pardoned by the king and released. In this case, according to the testimony given by his fellow expatriate teachers, Harry told them he planned to add short stories on the sensitive subject (about the crown prince) to his book to help promote the sale. His colleagues warned him but he did it anyway. So, what was his intention? Whose fault is it?

  In the case of Ms. Sudarat or Dar Topedo, Thais saw the VDO clip of her speech; no one has any doubt or dispute about the offense. Jukkapop Penkae’s cases are not as clear cut as Dar Topedo. However, Thais who have adequate education can pretty much see his unfriendly & hostile attitude after hearing & reading the contents of his speeches.

  For Giles Unpakorn, what he said in his Red Siam Manifesto can very well be interpreted as the BLUEPRINT for Thaksin’s RED GUARDS. Without giving any evidence, he maliciously accused & blamed King Bhumipol on a few things besides showing his hatred on the monarchy or royal institution. He asked for democracy but wants to adopt socialism. He advocates changing the country into republic but then calls for a welfare state. He wants red shirt supporters of Thaksin to be free of fear but ironically most Thai people lived in fear during Thaksin’s regime and now fear to wear yellow shirt on the streets in the country! For one own self’s discovery, I would love to see everyone involved here in the letter (both the authors and supporting scholars) wear yellow shirts and travel around in Isan, north and northern part of central provinces, the strong holes of Thaksin’s red shirt thugs.

  For Mr. Chotisak Onsoong, with his young and strong healthy body, he decided to challenge the law by sitting down while the entire audience stood up during the play of the Royal anthem. In disregarding the customary practice by the norm, the new graduate from Thammasart University claimed he wanted to exercise his freedom of expression and contended that it’s not the crime for thinking and acting differently. The young man seemed to be confused about the difference between social norm, respect, and one law versus other laws (freedom/rights).

  Mr. Chotisak’s behavior reminded me of the unique occasion in mid Oct 2008 when University of Washington and Thai Consulate General from LA jointly put on a Thai cultural show celebrating 175 years of established diplomatic relations between Thailand and USA. The event was held in the Meany Hall of U. of WA in Seattle. Among the estimated 700 people attended, 100-200 were our American friends and Dr. Charles Keyes was the keynote speaker. The audience also included a former US Ambassador to Thailand and several scholars and professors. When the Thai musicians played the Royal anthem honoring King Bhumipol, all audience (Thai & non-Thai) stood up to show the respect. This happened in the US not Thailand! So, please compare this act to that of Chotisak in his home country. If the reason he did not or could not stand due to physical handicap or injury, then the reaction will surely be different.

  Oh yes, the scholars talked about civil liberty in their letter but seemed to forget one of Lord Action’s words of wisdom which said: Liberty is not the power to do what we like but the right to do what we ought to. How is this statement reconciled against what Mr. Chotisak and the entire audience did as mentioned above? If the scholars really care about civil liberty and human rights, I wonder why they were silent when Thaksin and his cronies carried out the war on drugs where over 3,000 people were killed or kidnapped without due process. While the intents of these law breakers were quite clear but their ought-to-do or constructive comment about the monarchy was clearly absent. Likewise, our worldly renowned scholars on Thailand here while strongly criticized the lèse majesté law, their constructive idea (detailed solutions/improvement for fairness, effective enforcement, practical applicability & where the line should be drawn, etc.), was nowhere to be found in the letter. Our scholars seemed to forget that even small companies/organizations have rules, regulations and culture that employees must follow.

  It’s quite amazing to find that the world leading scholars can easily be used as the tool to embarrass a small but friendly and harmless country like Thailand. Someone with the ax to grind did a good job convincing these learnt ones to jump on the wrecking train. It’s a good trial but I don’t believe it’ll work because the overwhelmingly majority of Thais in and outside the kingdom know the facts, love our King and have no problem with this lese majeste law. The young rising leader, PM Abhisit seemed to do a good job not being rattled by this hot air while focusing on the more pressing issues confronting him, the mass and the nation. A thumb down for our professors/scholars but thumb up for PM Abhisit! Stay focus, PM Abhisit! You have our supports.

• 45 Frank G Anderson // Mar 9, 2009 at 5:45 pm

  Re comment no. 41, Taro Mongkoltip // Mar 9, 2009 at 12:07 pm:

  I hesitate to condescend, but it is so easy to do. Those bigger prisons you allude to proudly paid for by you will hold an increasing number of Thais, my friend, rather than foreigners, and you will soon find yourselves another Burmese style banana republic. This attitude of the pot calling the kettle black is not an unfamiliar error in mental reasoning, and thus easily appreciated by the foreigner. Because so many people subscribe to a dumb idea does not make it not dumb. As to foreigners not wanting the king or monarchy, get off that ivory pedestal you are on and listen to what people are saying. It should be embarrassing for you, by the way, to have foreigners solicit for your freedom rather than you doing it yourself. As to the right of foreigners to lobby one way or the other, of course there is a right. And often an obligation, something many Thai people don’t seem to appreciate. I have a child and grandchildren, a Thai wife and family and friends here, and don’t want any of them to face stupid lese majeste charges because an ignoramus takes offense and tries to put them in prison for stating the obvious or for putting forth a legitimate item of speech that no one is qualified to be offended by. Your attempt to teach foreigners is like that old anecdote of condescension told about Ben Franklin. He was accompanying a British general on a tour of the colonies and the British general noticed that colonial troops were conducting themselves in admirable fashion. The general said to Franklin, “I see you have taught your men to march in formation.” To which Franklin replied, “General, you can teach monkies to do that!”
  Point, of course, is that we are well ahead of you and there is no need to be abusive, condescending or to resort to name-calling. Because we do not agree does not mean we do not understand. When you do the opposite – that is, fail to understand because you do not agree – then you have remained victim of your own social failure. That carries over into this mad pursuit of punishing those who have a valid opinion relating to the monarchy or other subjects here in Thailand. And I suspect this is why what some regard as trash like Chalerm and Chavalit and Sanan and Sanoh and Thaksin remain so loved by so many. There is no need for common sense. Don’t try to defend the lese majeste laws by denouncing others or by hoping that they all end up in immoral inhumane Thai prisons. Is there not a Thai saying that those who wish this upon their opponents will themselves fall prey to their own ignorance?

• 46 doctorJ // Mar 9, 2009 at 7:39 pm

  Duangta had made an very important point here. The very crucial problem in Thailand is the education. From kindergarten to college, all are filled with sets of propaganda, no room for critical thinking allowed. Taro and some others more(here and also other websites/blogs) might be victims of the propagandas, planted for Thai kids for ages. Only through the education reform, will give these victims a true “insight” of what’s going on in their homeland.

• 47 Frank G Anderson // Mar 10, 2009 at 10:12 am

  Peter T’s comments represent a very fluent miscomprehension as best.
  Without possibly realization or honest room for doubt, he says that members of the royal family have never this and never that.
  Of course one cannot say they did this or that unless there is evidence, and that evidence is what is the target behind the lese majeste law. Anything that is or could possibly be true along alleged reports is safely hidden with the threat of 15 years in prison. That is why the law is being attacked for it to be repealed – it is grossly unfair by nature and structurally conceals wrongful acts by certain people while making sure that the common man or woman is severely punished and taught a lesson for future in bringing up any unpleasantries.
  To repeat past statements to this effect, any imprisonment of fellow human beings for perceived insults such as contained in the lese majeste law is a gross human rights violation. That is why scholars are demanding that the law be repealed. It is inherently unjust and is being applied unjustly.
  You can argue as fluently as you wish about others not understanding or being misled and not really knowing the Thai culture, the Thai people or the Thai rationale for the lese majeste law, but all that argument falls flat in the face of your own misled insistence that you know better because you are Thai, and other Thais who believe in opposition to you have been misled or are somehow insane. These are the arguments of addicts.

• 48 Taro Mongkoltip // Mar 10, 2009 at 1:25 pm

  I was going to come back and talk to you about being a victim of those who have an hidden agenda against Thai monarchy. Somehow, Peter T has said everything that I wanted to say.

  Dear Clifford & Rofen,

  I didn’t miss the point about the letter. There are some people out there who would like to see the change in Royal Thai Monarchy. And they are using the westerner’s tool called ‘Freedom of speech” to find an alliance to help them succeed their dream purpose.

  Calling for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law at this certain moment is wrong time to do so. You don’t know who has or hasn’t had an hidden agenda against Royal Thai Monarchy.

  For all of you who want to have constructive criticisms about Thai monarchy, you can do so outside Thailand anyway. I don’t understand why you have to do it inside the country when they have the country’s law to protect it. “When you are in rome, do what romans do” is quite a good example of it.

  You are calling to reform Lese Majeste Law but yet I haven’t seen any constructive critism and how it’s going to change to better situtation. How it’s going to protect our King better if it changed. If you do have so, please share it.

  DoctorJ, you are a perfect example of my criticism in the past about being a westerner who think that they are perfect than other people. So you are saying I have been brainwashed since I was young? I’m so sorry that I wasn’t perfect as you are. And how do know what a “true inside” in my homeland when you haven’t spent your whole life in Thailand.

  Dear old Frank,
  You must be really upset that your wife and her family won’t support you in what you are doing. This is not their obligation to do so. So sad, that you have been living in the country for so long, instead of you helping Thai people in many forms that you can do. But you choose to use LM Law to trying fame yourself in the internet world. I’m so sorry that not many people have actually watched your youtube videos. I will just leave you and you retirement free time alone. Have fun, banging.

  To you all,
  As long as the reform aims to favour “Freedom of speech” and to protect yourself against your so called “constructive criticism” NOT to show how it could help the Royal Thai Monarchy, you won’t be able to have a big impact in changing the law. This reform will turn to be one of those crickets in a night time who has a loud voice from time to time, and people will just ignore it.

  Best Regards,
  Taro Mongkoltip

• 49 Frank G Anderson // Mar 10, 2009 at 2:04 pm

  Taro:
  Again that attempt at condescension. It is laborious in the extreme.
  Not to be sorry about people not tuning into my YouTube videos. The latest one got a lot of hits, in part because it shows the obvious behavior of a Thai who purports to support the monarchy and Thai values but instead acts like an… never mind. the video is obvious.
  I was here with the Peace Corps in 1966-67, and actually surveyed the ox trail that became the highway between Buriram and Nong Rong. I put in my time at the village level time and time again, and can recite the same situation that exists now that existed then: people are intentionally being kept ignorant and misled by people like yourself.
  If you are hunting for material about how to more constructively and morally to protect, so to speak, the monarchy, you seem not to have read anything Ajarn Sulak has written, or even what His Majesty said in 2005 about lese majeste. In fact, when people like yourself are reminded of the king’s own words, you get uncomfortable, adopt an unpleasant look, and squirm out of it by making it appear as if a nasty and ignorant foreigner has again unnecessarily raised a bad issue.
  to cite another royal entreaty to the Thai people that has not been paid much attention to by the likes of you as well, the king has often chided Thai society for being selfish, having double standards and being intolerant. Besides violent, I can think of not much to add.
  So when you talk about protection, do it intellectually and not from the depths of ignorant prejudice that tries to cop out with the old us-vs.-them argument. As I said and don’t need to tell you a third time, I have a right and obligation to speak since not only I but my family and friends here are subject to the whims of the ignorant and mean who pretend to be loyal but live their personal lives as massively inexcusable hypocrites.
  Need I say more? If I do, then what about the other two institutions here, the religion and the nation? Do they not need protection? Do they not need review? Do they need to be forever maligned by those who demand to determine for others what to think, what to say and what to do? OTY.

• 50 doctorJ // Mar 10, 2009 at 2:54 pm

  FYI: Thongchai Winichakul had made a comment in Prachatai, concerning his “letter”. Here’s the link
  http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=1027#3314

• 51 Colum Graham // Mar 10, 2009 at 5:09 pm

  To Peter T and Taro,

  Thailand is not immune from the effects of global economic meltdown. There are more important matters of higher priority affecting over 60 million lives in the Kingdom that PM Abhisit & his cabinet members must urgently deal with. But the authors and supporting casts here are trying to divert his and everyone’s attention to this one law that affects only a few disrespectful foreign visitors and some radical Thai instigators who wanted to seek headlines & fame, and who take pleasure seeing Thailand remains in the state of chaos. The authors who masterminded this offensive move want to put undue pressure on PM Abhisit so that he may falls apart just like what the fugitive exPM Thaksin publicly predicted or prescribed.

  1) The vast majority of Thais will survive the world financial crisis in much the same way they have survived on very little for the most of their lives. The world financial crisis will largely affect elites in Thailand and I suppose this is why you’d suggest that the “Democrat” government must focus more on a global economic crisis than the law prohibiting those Thais living on very little, and indeed everyone else from speaking their minds in Thailand. If Lese Majeste was abolished, and subsequently Thailand was more liberally orientated, then 64 million Thais might have more to worry about as the wealth of the country would be more of their direct responsibility.

  2) It’s got nothing to do with Thaksin. You’ve conflated why Thaksin was even ousted in the first place with Lese Majeste, a completely separate issue. I put it to you that it is the desire of elites in Thailand to use the demonisation of Thaksin to justify whatever is in their self-interest.

  3) If some foreign academics can put pressure on Abhisit to lead him to fall apart, then he doesn’t really have the character to survive political office, does he?

  Many of these scholars spent considerable time (years and even decades) working, researching & living in Thailand. The scholars appeared to be a sympathetic bunch. But where were they when massive refugees from Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia flooded the country and took shelters there for years? Thailand has to carry tremendous burden taking care the refugees, totaling in millions, pretty much by herself most of those years immediately before and after the end of Vietnam War. As a small developing country with limited resources, Thailand did not complain about the enormous hardship she endured. Though Vietnam War ended almost 35 years ago, large numbers of refugees from countries near and far (Burma, Bangladesh, Laos, Pakistan, China, North Korea, etc.) have continuously made their ways into this small but friendly and free nation. Despite this fact, Thailand still does not create noise to gain global attention but continue to quietly deal with the problems immediately incurred and followed subsequently. Yet, the world has not seen or heard any foreign scholars who claimed to be friends of Thailand come out to publicly raise the awareness and help Thailand. No one stepped forward to defend Thailand when the rare incident of Rohingya refugee problem surfaced last month!

  4) What has Thailand taking in refugees got to do with Lese Majeste? Why is this a burden? If anything Thailand should pick up it’s socks and be an example for the rest of the region. Are you implying that Lese Majeste is needed because refugees don’t respect the King? If not, why even bring up refugees? Furthermore, why does Thailand need to be defended for taking in refugees? Or do you mean Abhisit should be defended for copping out and saying Thai law must be followed, and the Rohingya sent back to Myanmar? That is indefensible, because he is sending them back to a certain end. Abhisit is not Thailand, and if he is, this reflects poorly on such a ‘friendly nation’.

  
  In the past 60 years, it’s not a secret that King Bhumipol has done much more good things than bad to the people across the country. We all know that no one is perfect, and the King is no exception. The prince and princesses including their children are also far from perfect; they made mistakes. But the royal family did not involve in massive corruption or gross misconducts like Thaksin and politicians as well as those dictators before Thaksin. The King and the royal family members have never taken legal action against anyone who insulted or fabricated lies again them. More often than not, it has been the wicked politicians who abuse their power, intentionally and conveniently misapply the law against their opponents. Occasionally, a few insane and disrespectful Thai citizens and foreign visitors who wanted to prove their bravery and gain publicity stunt have decided to test the law/system. Normal people who are rational and have positive outlook would prefer to do something else for fun and experience that is better and more worthwhile.

  5) Sympathetic to being chased out of your country because you do not share the same view as the next man about its direction? You’re writing like a fascist.
  6) Nobody is saying that King Bhumipol is comparable to Thaksin. Again, it’s got nothing to do with Thaksin. Nobody is being subversive about the Thai King’s character. It’s an assumption you’re making.
  7) Inadvertently writing about the King, and waiting a few years before being sought after for Lese Majeste is hardly evidence of a desire to prove ones bravery.
  8 ) Normal is a subjective word, and what is normal for Thais right now is to not know whether they can talk or not. Is that fun?
  9) I believe, I may be wrong, that Giles Ji Ungpakorn never intended to slur the King, only those around him abusing his identity and influence.

  In March 2007 Swiss national Oliver Jufer was convicted of lèse majesté and sentenced to 10 years for spray-painting on several portraits of the king while drunk in Chiang Mai, Thailand. Jufer was pardoned by the king on 12 April 2007. In most cities across the US, it is the crime to create graffiti on public or private properties. Is it right that this foreigner who knew about this sensitive subject from living in Thailand for sometime intentionally proceeded with his act? Is it acceptable to you when your guest deliberately defaced or mutilated the pictures of your beloved parent while visiting you?

  10) Oliver Jufer was a jackass and would have done community service for defacing public property anywhere else in the world.

  In September 2008, Harry Nicolaides from Melbourne, Australia, was arrested at Bangkok’s international airport and charged with lèse majesté, for an offending passage in his self published book Verisimilitude. Subsequently, in January 2009, after pleading guilty, he was sentenced to three years in jail. On February 21, 2009, he was pardoned by the king and released. In this case, according to the testimony given by his fellow expatriate teachers, Harry told them he planned to add short stories on the sensitive subject (about the crown prince) to his book to help promote the sale. His colleagues warned him but he did it anyway. So, what was his intention? Whose fault is it?

  11) Harry Nicolaides sold 7 copies of his book. What he told his colleagues has nothing to do with his intent. He may have been a buffoon, but 7 copies sold in three years hardly represents a successful attempt to promote his book by using royal slander. Six months in a Thai prison for some words which didn’t even make a scratch on the Thai identity the King represents is hardly just. Preventive of further scratches, definitely not as the incident is now making negative publicity for Thaliand all over the world. Those few ‘friends’ of his are not really going to be heard when you’re a lead story on CNN. What are you going to do next, accuse CNN of breaking Lese Majeste? Sure it’s Harry’s fault for writing slanderous things about the Crown Prince. Is the over-reaction his fault too?

  For Giles Unpakorn, what he said in his Red Siam Manifesto can very well be interpreted as the BLUEPRINT for Thaksin’s RED GUARDS. Without giving any evidence, he maliciously accused & blamed King Bhumipol on a few things besides showing his hatred on the monarchy or royal institution.

  12) Thaksin’s red guards? Are you serious? Maybe you are.

  For Mr. Chotisak Onsoong, with his young and strong healthy body, he decided to challenge the law by sitting down while the entire audience stood up during the play of the Royal anthem. In disregarding the customary practice by the norm, the new graduate from Thammasart University claimed he wanted to exercise his freedom of expression and contended that it’s not the crime for thinking and acting differently. The young man seemed to be confused about the difference between social norm, respect, and one law versus other laws (freedom/rights).

  13) You say, in regards to Chotisak Onsoong, The young man seemed to be confused about the difference between social norm, respect, and one law versus other laws (freedom/rights). So if it’s a social norm, he did not break any law. His freedom to sit was perfectly justified as a social norm is not a law. Or is it?

  Oh yes, the scholars talked about civil liberty in their letter but seemed to forget one of Lord Action’s words of wisdom which said: Liberty is not the power to do what we like but the right to do what we ought to. How is this statement reconciled against what Mr. Chotisak and the entire audience did as mentioned above? If the scholars really care about civil liberty and human rights, I wonder why they were silent when Thaksin and his cronies carried out the war on drugs where over 3,000 people were killed or kidnapped without due process. While the intents of these law breakers were quite clear but their ought-to-do or constructive comment about the monarchy was clearly absent. Likewise, our worldly renowned scholars on Thailand here while strongly criticized the lèse majesté law, their constructive idea (detailed solutions/improvement for fairness, effective enforcement, practical applicability & where the line should be drawn, etc.), was nowhere to be found in the letter. Our scholars seemed to forget that even small companies/organizations have rules, regulations and culture that employees must follow.

  14) I’ll highlight that you say, the scholars talked about civil liberty in their letter but seemed to forget one of Lord Action’s words of wisdom which said: Liberty is not the power to do what we like but the right to do what we ought to. And what ought we do? Who determines that? If Thai elites were not so insecure, maybe Thais would like to be Thais instead of being told what Thai is by people unconnected to them. Maybe they could choose what they like, and indeed if they like to follow the King, Thaksin, Abhisit, whomever – then what’s to be afraid of? How is it a slight on Thai identity to acknowledge there are many types of Thais? Aren’t your Lord’s words open to interpretation?…. ‘ought to’ certainly implies they are. Small companies have regulations, but you don’t get fired for not standing as the CEO walks into the board room… if so, why would you want to work that company?

  It’s quite amazing to find that the world leading scholars can easily be used as the tool to embarrass a small but friendly and harmless country like Thailand. Someone with the ax to grind did a good job convincing these learnt ones to jump on the wrecking train. It’s a good trial but I don’t believe it’ll work because the overwhelmingly majority of Thais in and outside the kingdom know the facts, love our King and have no problem with this lese majeste law. The young rising leader, PM Abhisit seemed to do a good job not being rattled by this hot air while focusing on the more pressing issues confronting him, the mass and the nation. A thumb down for our professors/scholars but thumb up for PM Abhisit! Stay focus, PM Abhisit! You have our supports.

  15) They weren’t silent when Thaksin carried out his war on drugs. And because I’m more familiar with him, I can point to Noam Chomsky acknowledging it. Certainly not, and maybe if you were worried about Thai identity when Thaksin was committing his war on drugs, you would have noticed.
  16) Thaksin again, has nothing to do with Lese Majeste. I put it to you that the crux of Lese Majeste is Thai identity. And Thaksin presents to you a significant challenge to what you feel to be Thai is. Challenges are good because they make you think. What’s wrong with a challenge? Aren’t they fun?
  17) It can equally be said that it is amazing how many Thais are used by a small number of powerful men with only an interest in the status quo. Academics are hardly puppets of defectors. And being academics in Western universities, they would have had to make a fair effort of not being interested in anything other than what people tell them to be interested in to not have an opinion on pursuing ideas freely.
  18) Thailand is not harmless. Thailand has a military.
  19) They are some of the world’s leading scholars because they’ve made a habit of not being fooled through many years of disciplined work and thinking. Maybe you should take heed of their thinking for yourself and be amazed that you can question them and then be equally amazed at what you can’t question.

  …. And Taro, as just another Westerner I don’t think I am perfect, far from it. I don’t see why, if the King is loved so much, he needs to be so protected? Why do you need to protect what you love? You don’t own love. What do you think of what I’ve said in response to Peter?

• 52 Fonzi // Mar 10, 2009 at 7:42 pm

  Khun Taro-

  You think every Thai feels the same as you, thinks the same as you about the monarchy, but the truth is quite different.

  With or without lese majeste, there has always been criticism of the monarchy, rebellion against the monarchy by Thai people, regardless of the reign or the righteousness of the king, regardless of what the farang think, say, or do.

  Predictably, you will probably say that any Thai who is critical of the monarchy isn’t really Thai, because that is normally the knee jerk response by right-wing monarchists who can’t imagine anything else than what is produced on the 6 pm news or in the royalist cradle to grave propaganda.

  Is Pridi Banomyong not a real Thai? Is Plaek Phibunsongkram not a real Thai? What about the princes who conspired to over throw the absolute monarchy?

  If you look at the history of the Chakri Dynasty, going further back into the Ayutthaya period as well, there was always rebellion against the monarchy by Thai people. There is a long history of regicide, fratricide, internal rebellion, lese majeste, crushing of dissent, purges and pograms in Thailand.

  This notion that all Thai people have been living under a righteous of a Dhammaraja king beloved by all subjects since the times of Sukhotai is a lie and a myth. This fantasy has never existed in the entire history of Siam.

  It is unfortunate that you are too ignorant of Thai history to see that the monarchy could be sustained and better served if criticism of the monarchy be allowed to lawfully exist in the open rather than lurk in the shadows of the conspirators.

  If you are Thai, that most likely makes you a Buddhist, and if you are a Buddhist, then you should be able to comprehend that your attachment to what other people think of the monarchy really has nothing to do with the king or with Thailand, but with you. Why does it matter to you what academics, journalists, bloggers and posters have to say about the monarchy? Do you really think the monarchy is threatened or protected by the lese majeste law or its reformation? Do you really think your identity as a Thai is threatened by a small group of farang talking about it? I kindly suggest that neither the monarchy nor your identity as a Thai is threatened by academic or journalistic criticism of the monarchy made by any farang, or Thai, or anybody else.

• 53 noi // Mar 10, 2009 at 8:50 pm

  I am a Thai person who would like to tell foreigners Thai’s perspective concerning this institution, our king and our democracy system.

  First of all, those who are not Thai and haven’t learn Thai history should know our governing system. Our current system is a mixture of UK democracy. Our system has developed continuously for many hundred years. In Sukhothai kingdom, the kings treated his citizens as fathers took care of children. Even though the governing system has been changed and the kings were accepted as god , those kings still govern and control citizens in the country like they are in a big family.

  Secondly, for the point that no one can touch monarchy system. I would say that every country has its own way of thinking and its own way of having life. For me, I automatically respect our beloved king and I am willig to protect him from all accusation. why??? The reason is that I am Thai. Because of being Thai people, I knew what our king has done for us for more than 20 years. If you ask Thai people 10 years ago about their feeling toward our king, i could guarantee that almost 100 percent admired him and respected him without any doubt. Have you ever seen the king from any country try to initiate project that would help people in the long term until the age of 80 like him? He create the artificial rain project; a project that produce rain for farmers in during draught and planting non -toxic plant project which aims to change the habit of the hill tribe from plating marijuana to plants. He cared all levels of Thai people. He did many projects but I named only a few.

  Apart from that projects, he acts as the center of Thai people. Legally, he does not relate to the government right now. However, he is the center of Thai people mentally. Again, without any forcing.

  Thirdly, I want many of you think about some notices. Why our well respected instutution was posted in many newspaper and magazines during the past few years and why the respect to him reduce in some groups of people. I am not both PAD and red cloth but I am sure that a group of people want to harm the institution. I always heard the news about him and them. If anyone of you want to know, ask your friend who live in Thailand for more than 5 years. If he read Thai newspaper or talk to educated people, they must know.

  Last but not least, it is your choice to show your opinion. However, at least, please listen to me, a Thai people who bourned and has stayed in this country about 25 years. I and everybody I know respect him due to the things that he did for the country. Please don’t blame him or our monarchy system if you don’t really know. Almost all of people in our country also think that he was our father even though some people lost in the way due to the plan of some group of people who want to take over the power. The government did not block such websites or punish people who blame him or monarchy system because no one can touch. But, that people or website are going to defamous a person who is exceptionally respected in the country. Furthermore, that media inform only a black point aimed to deteriorate our king and our monarchy system. Imigine, is it proper if you blamed parents whom were respected by kids, and then are claimed that the right of people in the family is not well shared.

  If you really want to know the truth, please do not read only few famous international magazines. Read more. Read our Thai’s, both thai ones and English ones. Do you know that some newspapers are interfered by that guy…. a famous person who is travelling around the world 555.

  noi

• 54 amberwaves // Mar 10, 2009 at 10:54 pm

  -Peter T said re lese majeste: “There are more important matters of higher priority affecting over 60 million lives in the Kingdom that PM Abhisit & his cabinet members must urgently deal with.”

  Prime Minister Abhisit said in January, several times, I believe, that “protecting the monarchy” was one of his administration’s top priorities. His Justice Minister and, as I recall, ICT Minister said it was their TOP priority. So as for misguided priorities, I’d suggest you direct your criticism in their direction.

  -Also, Peter T approvingly mentions Charles Keyes standing up during the playing of the royal anthem at a Thai-American event in Seattle. It’s worth noting that Keyes is one of the signatories of the petition.

  -As for his assertion that: “If the scholars really care about civil liberty and human rights, I wonder why they were silent when Thaksin and his cronies carried out the war on drugs where over 3,000 people were killed or kidnapped without due process.”

  Frankly, I don’t think there is any truth to this assertion at all, it’s a tiresome Manager-style distortion.

  Certainly, criticism of the drug war was quicker and sharper from outside Thailand, and I suggest you look to reports by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International – among others.

  As for the scholar signatories, with limited time and resources, I can see that Duncan McCargo said this in a 2005 Freedom House report: (http://www.freedomhouse.org/modules/publications/ccr/modPrintVersion.cfm?edition=2&ccrpage=8&ccrcountry=101)

  The most serious assault on civil liberties in modern Thai history
  was the 2003 war on drugs, an apparently officially sanctioned policy
  of extrajudicial killing that involved some 2,275 deaths in its initial three months.While the authorities implausibly claimed that most of these killings resulted from drug dealers turning their weapons on each other, there was ample evidence of widespread official collusion in numerous murders…. Local Thai-language media carried little critical or investigative coverage of the drugs war, although one outlet did coin the phrase silent killing (kha tat ton) to
  describe the extrajudicial deaths. This dark episode undermined Thailand’s claims to a good human rights record, nullifying many of the country’s recent reforms.

  Thongchai Winichakul also seems to have had something to say, according to this 2004 Chang Noi column:

  http://www.geocities.com/changnoi2/thugs.htm

• 55 narcan23 // Mar 10, 2009 at 11:52 pm

  Frank, you have had a long running dispute with this women, give vengeance a rest. You are a smart guy with a lot to say which is right. Let it be.

• 56 The cricket in the night // Mar 11, 2009 at 7:32 am

  Taro, I have some constructive criticism that could help the Thai Monarchy with the reform of the law. I have repeated this several times. Stop the misuse of the law by the Police. The Thai PM has also admitted this is occurring so why not not help him and the Thai Monarchy by focusing efforts and name calling to those that deserve it?

• 57 Frank G Anderson // Mar 11, 2009 at 10:40 am

  Vengeance? Not really. If I was after that it would have happened long ago. I am attempting to put a proverbial nail in the coffin in the Thai rationale that everything should always be dropped either because it is personal or happened long ago. So many criminal cases here in Thailand are never settled properly because it’s always “give it a rest.”
  If it is still acceptable to denigrate Muslims in public without any actions taking place by authorities, when what is Thai society all about? And this is happening not in the south but in the northeast!

• 58 Frank G Anderson // Mar 11, 2009 at 10:53 am

  I would like those who say “please don’t blame when you don’t know.” to carefully consider what you know and what you have been told and where what you believe came from. Did it all come from being forced, expected, taught and brainwashed into thinking, believing and acting the way “Thais” think, believe and act “because they are Thais” or from an imaginary reason that it’s all “because we are Thai.”
  This is at the heart of the matter, including Chotisak’s great crime of making a personal voluntary choice of not standing and being threatened with prison because of it. He and many others in the country are being forced, sometimes by physical threat, sometimes by cultural pressure, to abide by what are wrongfully being called Thai culture. Thai culture did not involve standing in theaters that long ago, but then suddenly people were forced to do so. Sure the sign on the movie screen says “Please” but translating it means “Do it or else!” This is part of what it means to be Thai, and part of what it means to believe the way you think Thais are magically supposed to believe. I said before that disunity in Thailand is not a problem – unity is. Such unity produces dogmas, cults and violence in many respects against those who choose not to conform. Then, in reaction, they are told they are falling under foreigner or evil influence or that they are somehow not real Thais. This is all hogwash.
  It is refreshing to see honest opinions from especially Thais, and while there is some truth into not being able to 100% fully understand someone because you are not that someone, the philosophy is a two way street: you may not be able to appreciate that someone else does understand you because you have been conditioned to believe that disagreement and activity against what you have been conditioned to believe is somehow wrong, anti-Thai and threatening. Don’t forget that the guys with guns are now spying on your fellow citizens to make sure they don’t speak out of turn. Dismissing the undercurrent implicit in this is a failure to appreciate what is really happening in Thai society. Khun Khamron of the PAD, a Senator, for example, I used to appreciate watching him on ASTV. But now that he is spearheading the draconian “Protect the Monarchy” drive, his hidden agenda is there for all to see. He doesn’t mind if every single one of his fellow Thais and foreigners are all imprisoned as long as the monarchy is protected the way he and his ilk think it should be. this is your real enemy, and not those who would have free speech.

• 59 Frank G Anderson // Mar 11, 2009 at 11:03 am

  Another unfortunate aspect of this draconian mandate to proceed as is to”Protect the Monarchy” is, of course, pushing those who did not like Thaksin into Thaksin’s camp. While they saw bodies lining the streets are were aware of massive corruption under Thaksin, they now see that the alternative is much worse. Jail for speaking. Prison for writing. Incarceration for posting online. Arrest for speaking to someone about the monarchy or one of its members.
  My God, why is it so difficult to see this Mussilini-type monster being erected? Are people so in love with illusion? For the sake of the Thai people, I hope not.
  International scholars don’t waste their time signing such petitions, but neither do Thai authorities waste time in erecting barriers to free expression, to discolor legitimate counter-arguments and to use force to shut people up.

• 60 Duangta // Mar 11, 2009 at 3:26 pm

  Noi:
  I and everybody I know respect him due to the things that he did for the country. Please don’t blame him or our monarchy system if you don’t really know.

  I and with me everybody else I know is 100% aware, that the Thais love their king like a father, almost like a god figure. I do not blame HIM for anything. I criticize the people who are enforcing LM for their own political interests, that has nothing to do with the kings wishes and position anymore. (see comment from Abhisit regarding the need of changing the law and his majestys birthday speech in december 2005). As a lot of people have said before, it is not about the king, his role in the society or his position. It is about the abuse of power, freedom of expression, oppression of opinions, the need for criticism and discourse.

  Noi:
  For me, I automatically respect our beloved king and I am willig to protect him from all accusation. why??? The reason is that I am Thai.

  For me, I automatically become a fascist, want to start a war and am willing to kill thousands of people to gain power and money. Why?? The reason is that I am German….
  Sorry, a bit drastic, but basically that’s what it’s all about. When a person has a certain ethnicity, culture or nationality, that does not make him a fascist, royalist, democrat, socialist or whatever by birth. This is a process of education, socialization, cultural heritage.
  As a German, I don’t want to become a fascist anymore, that lesson we learned 60 years ago. But at that time. I probably would have.

  Noi:
  The government did not block such websites or punish people who blame him or monarchy system because no one can touch. But, that people or website are going to defamous a person who is exceptionally respected in the country.

  By not standing in the movie theater, by writing a book that contents 2 paragraphs with fictional comments about the royal family, by writing articles or asking students questions?
  All these are harmless acts, who is being defamed by this? Open discourse is not possible if people fear that every word they say about history, the role of the monarchy and therefore society and development in Thailand itself brings them to prison.
  AGAIN: it is not about harming the king or his institutions, it is about the abuse of this law. It is about freedom of speech, about discourse and tolerance.

• 61 Observer // Mar 12, 2009 at 1:36 am

  I read Noi’s posting above and disagree from beginning to end. But the author (she?) disarms me. Hers is so calm, cool and CLASSIC.

  Instead of arguing point by point against her, it is more interesting to think how Thailand has been so successful in molding their citizens to think alike, parrotting alike, and perhaps can sacrifice their lives as loyal ’subjects’ (not citizens) with relatively low intensity suppression (until the past few years), compared to many other countries. I wonder what Gramsci would have said. Now I am convinced that Thailand is truly remarkable in this regard.

• 62 michael // Mar 12, 2009 at 7:10 pm

  Peter T wrote:

  -The King and the royal family members have never taken legal action -against anyone who insulted or fabricated lies again them. More often -than not, it has been the wicked politicians who abuse their power, -intentionally and conveniently misapply the law against their -opponents.

  The signatories to the letter wrote:

  -“frequent abuse of the lese majeste law against political opponents -undermines democratic processes” and generates “heightened criticism -of the monarchy and Thailand itself, both inside and outside the -country.”

  It seems to me like there is a lot of common ground here. You both agree that the law is abused and misapplied. Peter T, what do you suggest could be done to address this problem?

• 63 michael // Mar 13, 2009 at 1:37 am

  michael #62: If you take the trouble to peruse other threads on similar subjects on this site, you’ll see that the name you’ve chosen to post under is already in use and has in fact posted several times in the last week. To avoid confusion, please choose another name. (’Another michael’ is also taken.) Thanks.

• 64 More support for lese majeste campaign // Mar 14, 2009 at 3:59 pm

  [...] (now with a total of over 170 names).� I have placed the list of additional signatories in my original post about the [...]

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