Comments on: International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/03/04/international-scholars-call-for-reform-of-thailands-lese-majeste-law/ New perspectives on mainland Southeast Asia Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:28:26 +1100 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: More support for lese majeste campaign http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/03/04/international-scholars-call-for-reform-of-thailands-lese-majeste-law/comment-page-2/#comment-623604 More support for lese majeste campaign Sat, 14 Mar 2009 04:59:47 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=4394#comment-623604 [...] (now with a total of over 170 names). I have placed the list of additional signatories in my original post about the [...]

]]> By: michael http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/03/04/international-scholars-call-for-reform-of-thailands-lese-majeste-law/comment-page-2/#comment-623146 michael Thu, 12 Mar 2009 14:37:36 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=4394#comment-623146 michael #62: If you take the trouble to peruse other threads on similar subjects on this site, you'll see that the name you've chosen to post under is already in use and has in fact posted several times in the last week. To avoid confusion, please choose another name. ('Another michael' is also taken.) Thanks. michael #62: If you take the trouble to peruse other threads on similar subjects on this site, you’ll see that the name you’ve chosen to post under is already in use and has in fact posted several times in the last week. To avoid confusion, please choose another name. (’Another michael’ is also taken.) Thanks.

]]> By: michael http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/03/04/international-scholars-call-for-reform-of-thailands-lese-majeste-law/comment-page-2/#comment-623115 michael Thu, 12 Mar 2009 08:10:05 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=4394#comment-623115 Peter T wrote: -The King and the royal family members have never taken legal action -against anyone who insulted or fabricated lies again them. More often -than not, it has been the wicked politicians who abuse their power, -intentionally and conveniently misapply the law against their -opponents. The signatories to the letter wrote: -“frequent abuse of the lese majeste law against political opponents -undermines democratic processes” and generates “heightened criticism -of the monarchy and Thailand itself, both inside and outside the -country.” It seems to me like there is a lot of common ground here. You both agree that the law is abused and misapplied. Peter T, what do you suggest could be done to address this problem? Peter T wrote:

-The King and the royal family members have never taken legal action -against anyone who insulted or fabricated lies again them. More often -than not, it has been the wicked politicians who abuse their power, -intentionally and conveniently misapply the law against their -opponents.

The signatories to the letter wrote:

-“frequent abuse of the lese majeste law against political opponents -undermines democratic processes” and generates “heightened criticism -of the monarchy and Thailand itself, both inside and outside the -country.”

It seems to me like there is a lot of common ground here. You both agree that the law is abused and misapplied. Peter T, what do you suggest could be done to address this problem?

]]> By: Observer http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/03/04/international-scholars-call-for-reform-of-thailands-lese-majeste-law/comment-page-2/#comment-622997 Observer Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:36:40 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=4394#comment-622997 I read Noi's posting above and disagree from beginning to end. But the author (she?) disarms me. Hers is so calm, cool and CLASSIC. Instead of arguing point by point against her, it is more interesting to think how Thailand has been so successful in molding their citizens to think alike, parrotting alike, and perhaps can sacrifice their lives as loyal 'subjects' (not citizens) with relatively low intensity suppression (until the past few years), compared to many other countries. I wonder what Gramsci would have said. Now I am convinced that Thailand is truly remarkable in this regard. I read Noi’s posting above and disagree from beginning to end. But the author (she?) disarms me. Hers is so calm, cool and CLASSIC.

Instead of arguing point by point against her, it is more interesting to think how Thailand has been so successful in molding their citizens to think alike, parrotting alike, and perhaps can sacrifice their lives as loyal ’subjects’ (not citizens) with relatively low intensity suppression (until the past few years), compared to many other countries. I wonder what Gramsci would have said. Now I am convinced that Thailand is truly remarkable in this regard.

]]> By: Duangta http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/03/04/international-scholars-call-for-reform-of-thailands-lese-majeste-law/comment-page-2/#comment-622948 Duangta Wed, 11 Mar 2009 04:26:06 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=4394#comment-622948 Noi: I and everybody I know respect him due to the things that he did for the country. Please don’t blame him or our monarchy system if you don’t really know. I and with me everybody else I know is 100% aware, that the Thais love their king like a father, almost like a god figure. I do not blame HIM for anything. I criticize the people who are enforcing LM for their own political interests, that has nothing to do with the kings wishes and position anymore. (see comment from Abhisit regarding the need of changing the law and his majestys birthday speech in december 2005). As a lot of people have said before, it is not about the king, his role in the society or his position. It is about the abuse of power, freedom of expression, oppression of opinions, the need for criticism and discourse. Noi: For me, I automatically respect our beloved king and I am willig to protect him from all accusation. why??? The reason is that I am Thai. For me, I automatically become a fascist, want to start a war and am willing to kill thousands of people to gain power and money. Why?? The reason is that I am German.... Sorry, a bit drastic, but basically that's what it's all about. When a person has a certain ethnicity, culture or nationality, that does not make him a fascist, royalist, democrat, socialist or whatever by birth. This is a process of education, socialization, cultural heritage. As a German, I don't want to become a fascist anymore, that lesson we learned 60 years ago. But at that time. I probably would have. Noi: The government did not block such websites or punish people who blame him or monarchy system because no one can touch. But, that people or website are going to defamous a person who is exceptionally respected in the country. By not standing in the movie theater, by writing a book that contents 2 paragraphs with fictional comments about the royal family, by writing articles or asking students questions? All these are harmless acts, who is being defamed by this? Open discourse is not possible if people fear that every word they say about history, the role of the monarchy and therefore society and development in Thailand itself brings them to prison. AGAIN: it is not about harming the king or his institutions, it is about the abuse of this law. It is about freedom of speech, about discourse and tolerance. Noi:
I and everybody I know respect him due to the things that he did for the country. Please don’t blame him or our monarchy system if you don’t really know.

I and with me everybody else I know is 100% aware, that the Thais love their king like a father, almost like a god figure. I do not blame HIM for anything. I criticize the people who are enforcing LM for their own political interests, that has nothing to do with the kings wishes and position anymore. (see comment from Abhisit regarding the need of changing the law and his majestys birthday speech in december 2005). As a lot of people have said before, it is not about the king, his role in the society or his position. It is about the abuse of power, freedom of expression, oppression of opinions, the need for criticism and discourse.

Noi:
For me, I automatically respect our beloved king and I am willig to protect him from all accusation. why??? The reason is that I am Thai.

For me, I automatically become a fascist, want to start a war and am willing to kill thousands of people to gain power and money. Why?? The reason is that I am German….
Sorry, a bit drastic, but basically that’s what it’s all about. When a person has a certain ethnicity, culture or nationality, that does not make him a fascist, royalist, democrat, socialist or whatever by birth. This is a process of education, socialization, cultural heritage.
As a German, I don’t want to become a fascist anymore, that lesson we learned 60 years ago. But at that time. I probably would have.

Noi:
The government did not block such websites or punish people who blame him or monarchy system because no one can touch. But, that people or website are going to defamous a person who is exceptionally respected in the country.

By not standing in the movie theater, by writing a book that contents 2 paragraphs with fictional comments about the royal family, by writing articles or asking students questions?
All these are harmless acts, who is being defamed by this? Open discourse is not possible if people fear that every word they say about history, the role of the monarchy and therefore society and development in Thailand itself brings them to prison.
AGAIN: it is not about harming the king or his institutions, it is about the abuse of this law. It is about freedom of speech, about discourse and tolerance.

]]> By: Frank G Anderson http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/03/04/international-scholars-call-for-reform-of-thailands-lese-majeste-law/comment-page-2/#comment-622912 Frank G Anderson Wed, 11 Mar 2009 00:03:56 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=4394#comment-622912 Another unfortunate aspect of this draconian mandate to proceed as is to"Protect the Monarchy" is, of course, pushing those who did not like Thaksin into Thaksin's camp. While they saw bodies lining the streets are were aware of massive corruption under Thaksin, they now see that the alternative is much worse. Jail for speaking. Prison for writing. Incarceration for posting online. Arrest for speaking to someone about the monarchy or one of its members. My God, why is it so difficult to see this Mussilini-type monster being erected? Are people so in love with illusion? For the sake of the Thai people, I hope not. International scholars don't waste their time signing such petitions, but neither do Thai authorities waste time in erecting barriers to free expression, to discolor legitimate counter-arguments and to use force to shut people up. Another unfortunate aspect of this draconian mandate to proceed as is to”Protect the Monarchy” is, of course, pushing those who did not like Thaksin into Thaksin’s camp. While they saw bodies lining the streets are were aware of massive corruption under Thaksin, they now see that the alternative is much worse. Jail for speaking. Prison for writing. Incarceration for posting online. Arrest for speaking to someone about the monarchy or one of its members.
My God, why is it so difficult to see this Mussilini-type monster being erected? Are people so in love with illusion? For the sake of the Thai people, I hope not.
International scholars don’t waste their time signing such petitions, but neither do Thai authorities waste time in erecting barriers to free expression, to discolor legitimate counter-arguments and to use force to shut people up.

]]> By: Frank G Anderson http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/03/04/international-scholars-call-for-reform-of-thailands-lese-majeste-law/comment-page-2/#comment-622910 Frank G Anderson Tue, 10 Mar 2009 23:53:57 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=4394#comment-622910 I would like those who say "please don't blame when you don't know." to carefully consider what you know and what you have been told and where what you believe came from. Did it all come from being forced, expected, taught and brainwashed into thinking, believing and acting the way "Thais" think, believe and act "because they are Thais" or from an imaginary reason that it's all "because we are Thai." This is at the heart of the matter, including Chotisak's great crime of making a personal voluntary choice of not standing and being threatened with prison because of it. He and many others in the country are being forced, sometimes by physical threat, sometimes by cultural pressure, to abide by what are wrongfully being called Thai culture. Thai culture did not involve standing in theaters that long ago, but then suddenly people were forced to do so. Sure the sign on the movie screen says "Please" but translating it means "Do it or else!" This is part of what it means to be Thai, and part of what it means to believe the way you think Thais are magically supposed to believe. I said before that disunity in Thailand is not a problem - unity is. Such unity produces dogmas, cults and violence in many respects against those who choose not to conform. Then, in reaction, they are told they are falling under foreigner or evil influence or that they are somehow not real Thais. This is all hogwash. It is refreshing to see honest opinions from especially Thais, and while there is some truth into not being able to 100% fully understand someone because you are not that someone, the philosophy is a two way street: you may not be able to appreciate that someone else does understand you because you have been conditioned to believe that disagreement and activity against what you have been conditioned to believe is somehow wrong, anti-Thai and threatening. Don't forget that the guys with guns are now spying on your fellow citizens to make sure they don't speak out of turn. Dismissing the undercurrent implicit in this is a failure to appreciate what is really happening in Thai society. Khun Khamron of the PAD, a Senator, for example, I used to appreciate watching him on ASTV. But now that he is spearheading the draconian "Protect the Monarchy" drive, his hidden agenda is there for all to see. He doesn't mind if every single one of his fellow Thais and foreigners are all imprisoned as long as the monarchy is protected the way he and his ilk think it should be. this is your real enemy, and not those who would have free speech. I would like those who say “please don’t blame when you don’t know.” to carefully consider what you know and what you have been told and where what you believe came from. Did it all come from being forced, expected, taught and brainwashed into thinking, believing and acting the way “Thais” think, believe and act “because they are Thais” or from an imaginary reason that it’s all “because we are Thai.”
This is at the heart of the matter, including Chotisak’s great crime of making a personal voluntary choice of not standing and being threatened with prison because of it. He and many others in the country are being forced, sometimes by physical threat, sometimes by cultural pressure, to abide by what are wrongfully being called Thai culture. Thai culture did not involve standing in theaters that long ago, but then suddenly people were forced to do so. Sure the sign on the movie screen says “Please” but translating it means “Do it or else!” This is part of what it means to be Thai, and part of what it means to believe the way you think Thais are magically supposed to believe. I said before that disunity in Thailand is not a problem – unity is. Such unity produces dogmas, cults and violence in many respects against those who choose not to conform. Then, in reaction, they are told they are falling under foreigner or evil influence or that they are somehow not real Thais. This is all hogwash.
It is refreshing to see honest opinions from especially Thais, and while there is some truth into not being able to 100% fully understand someone because you are not that someone, the philosophy is a two way street: you may not be able to appreciate that someone else does understand you because you have been conditioned to believe that disagreement and activity against what you have been conditioned to believe is somehow wrong, anti-Thai and threatening. Don’t forget that the guys with guns are now spying on your fellow citizens to make sure they don’t speak out of turn. Dismissing the undercurrent implicit in this is a failure to appreciate what is really happening in Thai society. Khun Khamron of the PAD, a Senator, for example, I used to appreciate watching him on ASTV. But now that he is spearheading the draconian “Protect the Monarchy” drive, his hidden agenda is there for all to see. He doesn’t mind if every single one of his fellow Thais and foreigners are all imprisoned as long as the monarchy is protected the way he and his ilk think it should be. this is your real enemy, and not those who would have free speech.

]]> By: Frank G Anderson http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/03/04/international-scholars-call-for-reform-of-thailands-lese-majeste-law/comment-page-2/#comment-622907 Frank G Anderson Tue, 10 Mar 2009 23:40:02 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=4394#comment-622907 Vengeance? Not really. If I was after that it would have happened long ago. I am attempting to put a proverbial nail in the coffin in the Thai rationale that everything should always be dropped either because it is personal or happened long ago. So many criminal cases here in Thailand are never settled properly because it's always "give it a rest." If it is still acceptable to denigrate Muslims in public without any actions taking place by authorities, when what is Thai society all about? And this is happening not in the south but in the northeast! Vengeance? Not really. If I was after that it would have happened long ago. I am attempting to put a proverbial nail in the coffin in the Thai rationale that everything should always be dropped either because it is personal or happened long ago. So many criminal cases here in Thailand are never settled properly because it’s always “give it a rest.”
If it is still acceptable to denigrate Muslims in public without any actions taking place by authorities, when what is Thai society all about? And this is happening not in the south but in the northeast!

]]> By: The cricket in the night http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/03/04/international-scholars-call-for-reform-of-thailands-lese-majeste-law/comment-page-2/#comment-622895 The cricket in the night Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:32:01 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=4394#comment-622895 Taro, I have some constructive criticism that could help the Thai Monarchy with the reform of the law. I have repeated this several times. Stop the misuse of the law by the Police. The Thai PM has also admitted this is occurring so why not not help him and the Thai Monarchy by focusing efforts and name calling to those that deserve it? Taro, I have some constructive criticism that could help the Thai Monarchy with the reform of the law. I have repeated this several times. Stop the misuse of the law by the Police. The Thai PM has also admitted this is occurring so why not not help him and the Thai Monarchy by focusing efforts and name calling to those that deserve it?

]]> By: narcan23 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/03/04/international-scholars-call-for-reform-of-thailands-lese-majeste-law/comment-page-2/#comment-622847 narcan23 Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:52:37 +0000 http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=4394#comment-622847 Frank, you have had a long running dispute with this women, give vengeance a rest. You are a smart guy with a lot to say which is right. Let it be. Frank, you have had a long running dispute with this women, give vengeance a rest. You are a smart guy with a lot to say which is right. Let it be.

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