I can’t offer a complete picture of the crackdown and what led to it. At this time this is simply not possible for me to do, if it ever will be. I had only views of where I went to photograph as things went completely out of control. I am weeks away from being able to somewhat analyze what happened. I have not even read any news article on the events right now, as I want to keep my memories as unfiltered as possible. So, please, do not take this as a complete account, these are just my limited personal impressions of these terrible days while working almost non-stop with very little sleep or rest. This is what I have seen, experienced and photographed. There are so many journalistic articles around by people who can do this much better than me, so I just want to give a sense of how things felt on the streets. I do try to stay away from rumor as much as I can, and if I can’t, because often rumors create perception, I will state this clearly. Please excuse any mistakes as these were very stressful days, and at the time of writing I am still very exhausted: mentally and physically.
On March 26 maybe 20-30,000 Red Shirts gathered at Sanam Luang, to march in blistering heat to Government House. The highlight of this march was when the Red Shirts brought their own heavy cranes to remove sand filled containers the government placed in their way to stop the protesters from encircling Government House. Quickly the containers were removed; two of them were lifted into the klong [canal] that runs opposite the main gate.
[Click on the images for full-size versions.]
A stage was built, speeches held. There were no incidents of violence, no attempts to enter the Government House compound. The usual market appeared – massage stalls, stalls selling Red Shirt paraphernalia, and food stalls. Police officers mingled with protesters. Most officers I asked, expressed their support for the Red Shirts, a very common statement was: “I am neutral, but my heart is red.” Many of these officers also said that their families are with the protesters. Some even changed into Red Shirts after their shift ended (I will not show photos of this right now, as I do not want to cause disciplinary actions against these officers).
On March 27 Thaksin Shinawatra had his first live video link to the protesters. This was a radical departure from his previous phone-ins. No more fluffy “I miss you, do you miss me” phrases. This was a radical attack at Privy Council president General Prem Tinsulanonda, and other members of the Privy Council, for orchestrating the 2006 military coup. He demanded the democratisation of Thailand. The crowd cheered.
All speeches on the stage revolved around the term “Amartayatipatai” – the most suitable definition may be “the rule of the traditional elites”, attacking the Democrat government, the military, and members of the Privy Council.
The Government had counted on the end of the protests on March 29 as the Red Cross fair was to begin the day after. But the protesters remained. The media speculated on decreasing mass support, but every night ten of thousands gathered at Government House. Not just upcountry people attended, but increasingly large numbers of middle class Bangkokians too. I was told that even members of the October 14 network, which has been part of the yellow-shirted People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD), have visited the Red Shirts behind the stage, showing signs of switching sides.
On March 30 in the morning there were rumors that police might disperse the protests. There was a small build up by police. I was told that this was a ruse by the Government to keep most of the protesters at their location at Government House, so that Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva could attend a meeting in the nearby United Nations building without protesters harassing him.
In some provinces Red Shirt protesters had occupied City Halls to support the Red Shirt protests in Bangkok.
In Bangkok, protest leaders and guards tried to keep the protest peaceful. A few undercover agents were caught trying to sneak in (mostly because they carried guns which were found during searches at the entrances), but they were led behind the stage and handed over to police. A few overzealous protesters were reported to have attacked a women and one provincial governor who wore yellow shirts, but Red Shirt guards protected them.
On the afternoon of March 30 PAD made their presence known at a small protest in front of the National Police Headquarters opposite Central World. About 500 to 1000 people attended, a few dozen of their guards were present. Rumors made the rounds that after their protest they would attack the taxi community radio station at Vibhavadi Soi 3. Hundreds of taxi drivers gathered there. Nothing happened though.
I was getting very worried when Red Shirt leaders announced their D-day, and that they would march to Gen Prem’s house. How would the military react? Already PAD members told me that the attacks against Gen. Prem in their view are equal to lese majeste, and that they could not tolerate this. I feared that the Red Shirts might have overshot their mark, that they overestimated their support, and underestimated the anger of the more radical parts of the military. My fears only increased when Jakrapop Penkair explained that the Red Shirts had decided to stay at the protest site at Government House indefinitely.
On April 4 I went to Udon Thani. I had a job for a Western news network as a fixer. On that day the Udon Lovers organised a large fundraiser on the occasion of the 3-year anniversary of their community radio station. A stage was built on the field in front of the station, and 430 round tables for a Chinese dinner were set up. Each table cost 2000 baht, seating ten. The tables were sold out in advance.
I was surprised to see Dr. Weng and Wiphuthalang Phattanaphumthai, two of the top Red Shirt leaders, arriving. Dr. Weng spoke on the radio, and was interviews by the news team. He soon departed for meetings in a neighboring province.
People began arriving at the fund raiser at sunset. About 5000 people attended. There were singers on the stage, speeches were held. Thaksin phoned in. People were convinced that they would win. Kwanchai Paipanna announced that they have hired 50 busses for the journey to Bangkok, that 2500 protesters would be able to go to Bangkok. People made donations.
The dinner was cut short when a thunderstorm arrived.
The next day, we went to a village with active Red Shirt support. In the village sala [pavilion] many villagers with Red Shirts waited for the foreign media team. The team went to one of the villager’s homes, and interviewed him about his life, and why he supports the Red Shirt movement and Thaksin. When we went for lunch with Kwanchai Paipanna, the owner of the restaurant handed him an envelope containing donations to the Udon Lovers collected by the staff of the restaurant.
Back in Bangkok, preparations were made for the D-day. On April 7 there was news that a new group of Prem supporters had gathered in front of Prem’s residence at Thewet. They wore light blue neckerchiefs, and called themselves a spontaneously founded citizens’ group – the “Glum Rak Pandin Goed” (The Group that Loves their Land of Birth). Most of the few dozen people had difficulties remembering the group’s name, and garbled it when I asked them. They walked in and out of the army installation next to Prem’s residence, mingled with the soldiers there. I met many PAD guards who I knew from the government house occupation of last year, and who remembered me as well.
On April 8 the march to Prem’s residence began. At first it was announced that people would meet at 10 am, and the march would start in the early afternoon. The march though began much earlier, and I arrived just in time when Red Shirts began forming up their lines in Sri Ayutthaya Road near Royal Plaza. Police told me that they sent the blue neckerchief guys home at 7 am, by that time there were 300 odd.
A massive crowd marched to Prem’s compound, and managed to surround it without any violence. After a while I went home, and returned in the evening. I won’t dare to guess the number, organizers said 300,000, police said more than 100,000 (I do give more credence to the police number though – they do make their assessments according to satellite images and per square meter occupation). It nevertheless was the biggest mass protest I have seen during the last 3 and a half years of political turmoil in Thailand, dwarfing every single PAD protest march. The whole of Sri Ayutthaya Road was packed with people, huge crowds at Royal Plaza, and the whole of the roads surrounding Government House. There were multiple mobile stages, with small street bands playing fast Isaarn Rock to which people danced on the streets.
The day after, on April 9, the road blockades by the Red Shirts began. At first there were mobile rallies at different key locations. I went to the rally at Democrat Party headquarters, which was led by Kwanchai Paipanna and the Udon Lovers.
News came that taxi drivers spontaneously, from what I was told, blocked several roads. I went first to the Rama IV/Rajawithi intersection, then to Victory Monument. So far, this was still within the limits of what I would describe as civil disobedience and nonviolent protest.
Nevertheless, there were undertones of extreme tension. When police appeared from the expressway, the mood of the protesters became extremely agitated. One mistake by the government, and I felt that the mood could swing. Police retreated.
At 6 pm a massive thunderstorm came, and soon after I went home. By night I returned. The atmosphere was amazing, and very intense. I photographed a group of mostly young people who had a small cart with a music system, playing heavy bass laden tunes, dancing wildly, reminding me of African tribal dances. Water was splashed around. Speeches were held from a mobile stage. I remember having seen Jakrapop Penkair on the stage.
On my way home I photographed a combined police/army roadblock at an underground station near my house.
The next day I went to the Suthisarn/Vibhavadi Rangsit Road blockade. This was for me the most fascinating blockade. The whole of Vibhavadi Rangsit Road was empty. At the blockade there were many local residents with their families mixed with protesters from other parts of town, and a small mobile stage under the expressway.
That night I decided to follow the protesters to Pattaya, where Abhsit’s car was attacked by Red Shirt protesters on April 7. From what I could make out from Bangkok the atmosphere seemed to be heating up there. Friends who were there already told me that Blue Shirts were present, and that there was a brief clash between Red Shirts and Blue Shirts, where some Red Shirts were injured by stones thrown at them. I had already once tried to find out more about the so called Blue Shirts, rumored to be a group set up by Newin, when they were seen at Suvarnabhumi Airport during the beginning of this round of protests, but my search was fruitless when I drove there.
On the road from Bangkok to Pattaya were hundreds of cars with Red Shirts joining the protests there. Many taxis, and pickup trucks loaded with Red Shirts. There were several road blocks slowing the traffic down. On the outskirts of Pattaya there was a roadblock where a few Red Shirt cars were briefly held back, but soon allowed to continue.
At about 6 am I went to the security zone around the Royal Cliff Hotel. On the bottom of the hill there was a roadblock by the security forces, the first line was the Border Patrol Police (BPP), the second line was the Army. I was at the Tourist Police station halfway up the hill when suddenly several hundred Blue Shirts walked out from within the security zone. One blue pickup truck with Blue Shirts sitting in the open back appeared transporting wooden clubs. I took photos. The Blue Shirts objected, but I did not care. A soldier told them to drive further down the road. I followed on foot. At the bottom of the hill, several dozen Blue Shirts hung out at the road block. Several Blue Shirts carried the pieces of wood through the Army and the BPP lines, and distributed them to their friends, who lined up in front of the BPP. I recognized some Blue Shirts as PAD guards, and they also remembered me from the Government House occupation. Others of the Blue Shirts very much looked like soldiers (I was told later on that they were Navy personnel from Satthahip).
Soon a large group of Red Shirts appeared with a mobile stage. At first there was a loudspeaker duel between Red Shirts and Blue Shirts, soon the two groups faced each other from a distance of less than 200 meters. Nirmal Ghosh called me, he was at a different access road, and told me that a brief clash between Blue and Red Shirts had already happened there, but that when a small bomb was thrown, Blue Shirts retreated behind military lines. Where I was standing a clash was beginning to build itself up. More than 1000 Red Shirts were facing maybe 300 Blue Shirts. At the last moment, when the groups were only 50 meters away from each other, negotiations were held, and soon after the Red Shirts left.
I walked up the hill. There was a large group of Red Shirts in front of the Hotel where the ASEAN Summit was to be held. Apparently one or two Red Shirts were shot by Blue Shirts, but I am still confused about when exactly that happened, during the brief clash, or during the previous night. Red Shirt leader Arisamun Pongruengrong demanded that the government deliver the responsible Blue Shirts to justice. He held a press conference inside the entry area of the conference building of the Hotel. Several Red Shirts have shown off a sack of blue shirts that they found during their approach to the Hotel. After a lull of about one or two hours, suddenly Red Shirts walked into the grounds directly in front of the Hotel doors. Army and police appeared to be lost for an answer. Red Shirts stood at the front doors, and suddenly began pushing. One large glass window suddenly broke, and Red Shirts stood inside the Hotel. I was completely astounded, and let myself be carried with the flow of protesters who streamed into the hotel like an overflowing river. There were bewildered journalists, delegates and observers from many Asian countries watching on. In between were tourists in swimming trunks. Some Red Shirts stood next to them and snapped pictures with their mobile phones, and the tourists took their images. There was no violence, it was just plain bizarre and surreal. Soldiers ran to protect the entry of the main hotel building; Red Shirts ignored them, walked around and entered through a side entrance, searching for Abhisit. In general, the protesters were noisy, but very well behaved.
After half an hour the Red Shirts simply left the Hotel. I photographed one young soldier who had collapsed from the heat and dehydration. Army medics took care of him, and an old lady with a Red Shirt massaged him. The Red Shirts retreated to their protest site behind Big C in North Pattaya as Abhisit has declared emergency rule over Chonburi Province and Pattaya, and then they decided to return to Bangkok.
On April 12, I got the news that Arisamun had been arrested. Red Shirts demanded his release, and protested in front of the court building in Ratchada. The same afternoon, Abhsit declared at the Ministry of Interior, Emergency Rule over Bangkok and several surrounding provinces. A very confusing situation developed. It was reported that enraged Red Shirts attacked Abhsit’s car, and that his driver fired warning shots into the air, after which he was beaten up by Red Shirts. Red Shirts complained of several injured when Abhsit’s car crashed into them, and some claimed that some of the hurt protesters were dragged by security forces into the building.
When I arrived, Red Shirts remained at the gates and in the grounds, there were soldiers as well, some of them armed with M-16s. It was a tense situation. Things clearly began to turn bad. Red Shirts searched the buildings for their injured (none were found). Suddenly a car seemed to try to escape, followed by angry red Shirts. I went after, and found that the car crashed through a fence and into a taxi, and was stuck halfway in the compound and the foot path. In the car were two men stuck, the driver and Democrat Secretary-General Nipon Prombhand. Red Shirt guards surrounded the car, trying to hold the angry crowd back. After taking some images, I pushed a few too aggressive Red Shirts away, and shouted at them that they should not behave like animals. The guards applauded me, and so did several other Red Shirts that tried to keep the situation from getting any more out of hand than it already was. Not long after, Red Shirt guards managed to get the two injured men out of the car, and sent them off to hospital safely.
It seemed that a point of no return had been reached, and in the early hours of the following day the crackdown began.
On Monday April 13, my wife woke me up at 4 am in the morning, at the same time a friend rang me. It had begun, they said, in Din Daeng. I arrived at Samliem Din Daeng, the corner of DinDaeng Rd. and Ratchaprarop Rd., shortly before 5 am. It was dark, and in the close distance single shots were being fired, and there were brief bursts of automatic gunfire. There were ambulances, angry Red Shirt protesters, and a few Thai photo journalists. As I walked carefully towards the fighting, Red Shirts were running towards me, away from the sound of bursts of automatic rifles. They shouted that the Army was coming. I ran with them, my bullet proof vest, the heat and plain fear slowed me down. But it calmed down again.
Agitated Red Shirts told me of people having been killed, and dragged by soldiers into lorries. I have no way of verifying this. This was obviously not a situation where I could cross the lines and make polite inquiries. I waited. Black smoke wafted from burning tires. Young Red Shirts prepared for the assault with petrol bombs in their hands. One of them tried to incinerate a few tires with a petrol bomb, but the fuel splashed over his legs, and he was briefly on fire until his friends could put it out.
By daybreak suddenly the intensity of the shooting increased, and the Red Shirts ran away. I hid under a tree, heard a few gun shots, and a few meters above me a bullet went with a very ugly noise through the leaves of the tree. I ducked into a side alley, to let the Army overrun me, and then to come out again when things were safer. Two Red Shirts were hiding in the Soi as well. They pulled their shirts off, and local residents hid the two in their house. When soldiers appeared in the Soi, I held my camera up, and said that I was a journalist. No questions were asked, and with relief I took images of the tense soldiers. The soldiers appeared not to move any further. More media arrived; some came from behind the soldiers, some from their homes.
I realized with panic that my camera has given up. I could not make it work. The culmination of more than three years intense work, and exactly that moment my camera had to break. And that on the only Thai holiday where almost every shop is closed. Both Nirmal Ghosh and Jonathan Head offered me to loan me their cameras (for which I am eternally grateful!) when I called them and told them of my luck. As things seemed to stay calm, I decided that I would first go home and see if my photos from the morning were saved, and to see if I could find a camera shop.
At shop opening time I went to the shops opposite Central Lard Prao, and found one shop that was open, and where I could find the same camera I have got used to, a Canon Eos 450 D – the cheapest 12 megapixel camera. I am not rich, and it did hurt having to buy a new camera, but at least I could continue working.
I went back to Din Daeng. Things were still the same. The Army was in the same position, and nothing happened during the 3 hours I was away.
I sat next to a young Corporal. We talked about what happened. He was not happy to be there. He was from Isaarn, and had also relatives among the Red Shirt protesters, naturally. But a soldier has to follow orders.
Red Shirts were at Victory Monument and slowly closed in on the army from both Ratchaprarop Rd and from the direction of Victory Monument . Maybe 200 meters away from the army they stopped. One man walked over to the army with roses. An International Red Cross official was there trying to negotiate between the Army and protesters.
Protesters became agitated, began burning tires. Photographers photographed. The army drove two water thrower in. On Rachaprarop Rd. a bus was set ablaze by Red Shirts, a gas tank placed in front of the bus. The soldiers extinguished the fire with their water thrower and began to move in, shooting their rifles with single shot in the air. The noise was tremendous. This time the assault seemed to be more orderly and disciplined than the one in the early morning hours. This time I could not see soldiers firing straight, but of course I could just barely see what was next to me. As the Red Shirts dispersed, I walked back to the intersection. A bus suddenly appeared on the overhead bridge driving towards soldiers there. I saw the soldiers firing on the bus, and the bus crashing on the rails of the bridge. Fortunately it did not run over the railing and the soldiers stationed under the bridge. I feared that we might have had the first casualty that I could see, but when I walked later to the bus, I saw it riddled with bullet holes but no blood. The entire front window had fallen out and was on the tarmac in front of the bus, the glass riddled with bullet holes. Somebody told me that he saw a person jumping out of the bus just before the soldiers fired.
The assault by the army went the same way, soldiers walking orderly, firing their rifles in the air in single shot, and securing side alleys. I photographed one bus whose windows had bullet holes, most likely from automatic rifles shot from the direction of the soldiers. They pushed the Red Shirt protesters off Victory Monument. I photographed how a few injured Red Shirts were taken away roughly by soldiers. One of them I heard saying: “I am just an old man, I haven’t done anything to anybody”. I cared not for the soldier telling me not to take photos.
Things stayed calm. On the Pahon Yothin corner a few tires were set ablaze. The black smoke with Victory Monument in the background made for a dramatic frame. I guess every photographer on the scene captured it.
I walked across to Rajawithi Hospital. A bus was aflame – another dramatic shot. A few Red Shirts were there, and have shown me bullet shells they had collected.
After a while I went home; to take a rest, and to store my images on the computer. In the early afternoon I went back out again, I wanted to go near the Government House area. Just as I left my house, Thilo Thielke, the “Spiegel” correspondent, called me, and told me that I should consider myself under assignment. At least now the heavy financial blow of having to buy a new camera would not result in any more difficulties with my bank than I have already, and I might even be able not to, as usual, operate at a loss.
When I arrived at Yommarat, I asked some residents in a small side alley if I could store my motorcycle in front of their house to keep it safe. When I came back later to pick up my motorcycle, these very nice people had even covered it with a straw mat to protect it against the sun. They gave me cold water to drink, and asked me what was happening, and expressed strong disappointment at the violent crackdown.
I went over to the Rama 6 – Petchaburi Raod intersection, took photos of a burning bus, and of one young tattooed Red Shirt protester. He screamed in the direction of the soldiers stationed at the Sri Ayutthaya intersection: “Why do you kill us! I am Thai as well! I may be poor, but I also have my beliefs!”
From Petchaburi Road a mobile stage and a larger group of Red Shirts approached. Suddenly there were a few cracking sounds, a commotion, and soon waiting ambulances drove past me in the direction of the group of Red Shirts. Several Red Shirts that passed by said that PAD members had shot at them out of Petchaburi Soi 5. I walked over there, and managed to photograph one of the injured. He was screaming; a bullet lodged in his leg.
When the ambulances left, fire fighters extinguished a few burning structures inside the Soi. I decided to leave, as most Red Shirts had already left the scene, and I did not want to be caught out alone by roaming armed local residents/PAD. I picked up my motorcycle and parked it somewhere closer to the protest site in case of a military approach.
I briefly went to the Red Shirt stage, I met Prateep Ungsongtham Hata, who led a group of Red Shirts with flowers to the military lines. I wanted to follow, but lost sight of the group. From the direction of the railway lines at the express way entry a huge wall of black smoke rose into the sky. Another bus was set ablaze by enraged Red Shirts. Things then began to completely get out of hand. A fire truck arrived, trying to extinguish the fire. Angry Red Shirts chased the firefighters away. Suddenly youths from the slums along the railway lines attacked the Red Shirts. They fired guns and threw stones at the Red Shirts positioned at the overhead bridge, Red Shirts fought back with stones and petrol bombs, set one house in the slum on fire. Later I was told by both Red Shirts and intelligence officers that many of these residents of the slums were also PAD supporters, and that this was not their first confrontation. The fighting went back and forth, and as it became dark soon I decided that I did not want to remain there, I was too frightened. I am not a combat photographer, I am a father and husband, and nothing is worth such a risk.
I picked up my motorcycle just as the Army began moving in to Yommarat, and parked it in a side alley close to Nang Loen intersection, several hundred meters closer to the stage area.
I went behind the Red Shirt stage, I wanted to see the mood there. I sat with some who were preparing a press conference that Chaturon Chaisaeng was to hold later in the Royal Hotel. Several people argued. There were signs of desperation and collapse. Veera Musikapong came from the stage. He had a flower garland on his head, and joss sticks in his hand. He went to the small area reserved for protest leaders, and prayed. I went in, and photographed him. He was very quiet, and asked me if I would like to have dinner with him.
Jatuporn came as well, and an academic whose name I can’t remember. I asked how things will proceed now. They said that there is no control anymore, sad and resigned to fate: “What will happen, will happen”. I excused myself, and continued working.
I drove my motorcycle out of the Government House area. I did not want to risk having my motorcycle there in case the Army would close off the area before their final assault. A friend, an intelligence officer, told me the still open exit routes. I had to drive my motorcycle through the protesters and out of Makhawan bridge to Rajadamnern. This route was still clear. On Rajadamnern were a few burned busses. I sat a while with my friend. We heard the sounds of gunshots from the direction of Nang Loen.
We then went behind Metropolitan Police headquarters. There was a small crowd of extremely angry Red Shirts. They attacked every vehicle of the Thai media, angry by the not exactly unbiased reporting. Unfortunately, what many of them do not understand, is that Thai journalists are as divided over the political situation as the general Thai population, and many Thai journalists do not agree with the PAD or government policy. The result of these attacks was that most Thai journalists did not dare anymore to go close to the Red Shirts, and remained with the Army, even as Red Shirt leaders asked the protesters not to attack them. Part of the problem of course is that also many speeches on the stage condemned Thai media for being too partial towards the PAD. This is not too untrue, but unfortunately it results in attacks against the media. Right now only foreign journalists can safely work with Red Shirts. This is a huge problem for the future. Very few foreign journalists are fluent enough in Thai to directly speak in Thai, and too few Red Shirts speak English well enough. Also, Red Shirts expect too much from the foreign media. The media business is a business, and a story is only hot while it is big enough. When Thai journalists cannot work with Red Shirts, there is very little chance that their views will be heard in the traditional media outlets. It is more than important though that Red Shirts have a voice in the media.
With all this in mind, I decided to join the press conference. Along the way at Rajadamnern I passed Kaosarn Rdoad where many young Thais and tourists partied Songkran-style. I had to dodge groups throwing water.
The uniformed door keepers at the Hotel were asking me what was going on. They were distraught by what they had seen on TV that day. Inside were a few journalists waiting for Jaturon. When he came there were only 7 or 8 journalists at this press conference. I could not bear staying long; this was just a too sad affair.
I met up again with my intelligence officer friend. The following hours I didn’t do much. We were mainly expecting the final assault on the protest site by the Army. Nobody had any real information, speculation and rumors was all there was. None of my friends from the police was given any information whatsoever; police was kept almost completely out of the loop. First I was behind the Metropolitan Police Headquarters on Pitsanulok Road. This was one of the two routes out of the area where Red Shirts could leave the protest site. Police, who were otherwise not involved in the crackdown, kept security there. At the time 4000 protesters were estimated to have remained at the site. Small groups of protesters passed by, asking if it was safe to leave from there, fearing the PAD were waiting for them.
I decided to stay, in case the final assault came, and the Army would cordon off the whole area, and I feared I could not get in anymore if I left. I settled in front of Metropolitan Police headquarters. A slightly surreal incident was when suddenly a girl in hot pants and high heels walked by the police and journalists sitting around there. A cart drove by selling essentials. I bought a pack of cigarettes and a few cold towels to clean some of the accumulated grime and sweat off me. I met up with a colleague who had walked through the area of fighting between local residents/PAD and Red Shirts. He told me how he had seen people on motorcycles suspected to be Red Shirts having been badly beaten up, and how one of those local residents/PAD had pointed a gun at him from short range with what he thought was the clear intent to kill him. Fortunately one of the other thugs took the gun away from his friend. After hearing this I was very glad to have decided not to take pictures there. I managed to sleep about two hours in one of the half torn down structures left over from the Red Cross Fair.
At about 4 or 5 am I went to Pitsanulok Road at the Nang Loen intersection. There were no sounds of gunshots anymore, and the fighting seemed to have dropped off. I spoke with several Red Shirt guards who told me harrowing tales of the battles, of how they have seen friends dragged away and beaten to death, and how they could not reach the corpses before they were snatched away. I photographed some of them with bullet shells they collected, both AK-47 and M-16 ammo.
By sunrise no assault by the Army came, and I went home. I caught two and a half hours sleep. At ten in the morning I went back to the protest site. I entered from Sri Ayutthaya Rd., parked my motorcycle in the Metropolitan Police headquarters, and walked into the Red Shirt-held area from Royal Plaza. About 2000 protesters remained at the site. Back at Pitsanulok Road I met up with Nirmal Ghosh and several other colleagues. Our plan was to stay there at the frontlines, and when the final assault began, to duck into one of the alleys and stay with local residents, and then to slip out and get in with the Army. The Red Shirt guards were resigned to what was to come. I took a photo of one Red Shirt who was caught by a small mob of PAD not long before that morning, and whose back had a deep gash from a machete. His hand and head were bandaged.
Another bus was set ablaze and one gas tank, which then burned out with large flames. A few residents extinguished the fire in the tank. In the alley where we planned to stay the locals had sympathies for the Red Shirts, but asked them to leave the alley for the safety of the residents. The Red Shirts complied, one with a portable loudspeaker appeared, and asked all Red Shirt guards remaining in the area to move behind their barricades at the Nang Loen intersection. He said that all Red Shirts that remained would be considered “third hands” and not be accepted inside anymore. Very soon soldiers appeared in the Soi. Local residents asked the Army to leave as well, for the safety of their houses. The soldiers formed a road block deeper in the Soi. I saw a small squad moving into a side alley.
Suddenly news came that Veera Musikapong had been the stage to call off the protests, and had announced their surrender. I was extremely relieved, as an army assault would have been very ugly. There were a few tense moments when a small squad appeared out of a small alley near the Red Shirt barricades, but after brief negotiations the Red Shirts stayed calm, and the squad only secured Pitsanulok Road up to Yommarat.
I walked around the protest site. The Army stayed out. Protesters began to abandon the area. I spoke with some that were nearly crying. Many were flicking a resilient V sign to me. One old Red Shirt slit open water bottles with a cutter, mumbling to himself: “This is our water, these soldiers will not drink our water.”
At the Royal Plaza exit Dr. Weng stood on a loudspeaker wagon, and asked the soldiers to retreat as they were leaving anyhow. Soldiers were searching leaving Red Shirts, and recorded their IDs. Still protesters flicked the V sign to me. On Royal Plaza Veera Musikapong and Nattawut Saikua stood on the back of a pickup truck, surrounded by commando police. Nattawut said: “We surrendered to save lives. We will not give up and will continue fighting for democracy.” Soon they were led to Metropolitan Police Headquarters, and also soon Dr. Weng followed the same route. When he was led up the stairs he made the V sign to the journalists.
I went home.
In the afternoon I got another call. The caller said that on Prachtipatai Rd. near Democracy Monument a small gathering of Red Shirts was dispersed, and one protester was shot dead (later it turned out that this protester was just injured). Several hundred protesters had retreated to Sanam Luang, and gathered there. It was very emotional. People shouted their frustrations, some cried. They handed out computer print outs of protesters they assumed to be dead. Police was present, but soon retreated further away, not to aggravate the situation.
There were a few western journalists, and Pravit from The Nation. One Thai photo journalist was there, he was very scared of being attacked. The sad part there was that he has certain sympathies for the political aims of the Red Shirts, but in this situation the protesters did not differentiate much between individual journalists anymore – Thai journalists were their enemy, western journalists were welcome. Later the famous Muad Jeap, who wrote the book Thaksin, where are you? appeared. She was crying, and hugged a protester. Soon after I went home, completely exhausted.
Where are we now?
The polarisation of Thai society has not been solved; it is, after the crackdown, starker than ever. The Red Shirt movement has been crushed, its leaders either in jail, or on the run in the underground. The ordinary supporters are very bitter over the crackdown, and so angry over what they see as completely biased Thai media reporting that Thai journalists cannot safely approach Red Shirts anymore. The movement is demonised by the media and the government. Their websites and community radio stations have been closed.
Red Shirts are convinced that a number of their members have been killed (and I have strong suspicions that they are not too wrong in this assessment, but have no evidence or proof whatsoever). The government has to organise an official and neutral inquiry. And it has to stop lying that only fake bullets were used, and only fired into the air. I have photos of bullet holes, where I have seen soldiers firing. The bullet that passed a few meters above my head in the leaves of a tree under which I was hiding in the early hours at Din Daeng was not a fake bullet or sprung out of my imagination, and given the distance and angle of the shooter from the military lines, the difference of the elevation of the muzzle was not more than a few centimeters. This was clearly a shot fired in the direction of the crowd and not into the sky. I have seen soldiers refilling their magazines with copperhead bullets. They were not fake bullets.
The Red Shirts complain about double standards. They are not too wrong about this either. When the PAD occupied Government House, Abhisit personally interfered on the ground at Makhawan Bridge in the court ordered police dispersal. No action was taken when Samak declared Emergency Rule, and when the airports were occupied, no action whatsoever was taken by the Army.
There is no doubt that things went completely wrong, and also the Red Shirt leadership has to take responsibility for much that happened. When they declared their D-Day, and their indefinite protest at Government House, they overestimated their abilities, they also overestimated their ability to control the deep-seated anger and sense of injustice among their supporters. I refuse, however, to accept the present tone of the Thai media that demonises the Red Shirts. Much of the escalation is the responsibility of the Government. How, for example can it happen that PAD guards and Navy personnel can appear disguised as “Blue Shirts”, who have collaborated with the security forces, as is proven beyond doubt, to engage in clashes with Red Shirts? That was not the decision of a local commander – this has been a top level political decision.
This is reminiscent of the dirty games and strategies of the 1970s, of extreme right wing militias, such as Navapol and Kratingdaeng, who with high level government and military support acted as agent provocateurs. Are we really back in this dark era of Thailand’s history? Have we not learned one thing?
I very much doubt that the crackdown has persuaded the Red Shirt supporters to suddenly support Prime Minister Abhisit and his government. There are indications that some groups will continue from the underground, and a low level insurgency might result. I wonder very much what can be done to begin reconciliation, and if the government is even willing to take the necessary steps beyond statements of intent that I suspect are nothing but spin. There have to be substantial negotiations, and a compromise. But that entails that some of the demands of the Red Shirts have to be met. The Red Shirts have to be heard, much of what they say is valid criticism, and a contribution to progress in Thailand. To accuse them of simply being tools of Thaksin to get his wealth back, is an extremely dangerous misjudgment based on ideology and not on fact.
There still are leaders that are open to negotiation. But the window of opportunity is short. If this movement goes even partially into the underground, than it will take a long time and a lot of blood before another chance might appear.
And to fight such an underground movement, the government will have to use strategies and tactics that will not be combined with human rights and due process of the law. Do we want such a Thailand, or can a Thailand be built in which difference of opinion, even when it crosses the boundaries of state ideology at times, can be accepted and not result in people getting killed?
amazing post !
Thanks ….
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Great thanks for this riveting first-hand account.
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Simply outstanding. Just reading it is draining. Writing it, photographing it….
Huge admiration for Nick. The photos are superb, but the diary narrative is what makes this outstanding. So much photojournalism focuses our attention on a single image which has a limited range of messages. This essay puts a whole slew of images into the context of a story, allowing the humanity to break through the brittle surface of the drama. The woman massaging the soldier. Dancing under the expressway. The small dramas in the sois. Nick’s own personal dramas. And the humanity is important to the politics. Whatever else happened in this two days (provocation, third hands, who knows), most of those involved invested their frustrations and hopes. The previous episodes in this series have been superb, but this moves to another level.
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Well done and great photographs. Your closing thoughts seem quite on target and balanced. That army and PAD supporters and guards posed as locals, in Pattaya and Bangkok, needs to be more widely reported. I hope journalists, Thai and foreign, will do so.
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I think a key point here is that in the beginning the red shirts maintained a nonviolent approach. It was only after the storming of the ASEAN Summit that things turned awry. A question that needs to be answered is was the escalation of violence a result of the red shirts upping the ante or were the red shirts just defending themselves against a crackdown by the army. It may well be combination of factors.
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Thank you for such a wonderful report. I am absolutely astonished that the Blue Shirts were not the “neutral” or “pro-peace” people they portray themselves to be. If they are indeed the disguised version of the Yellow Shirts, then I definitely see this saga will continue.
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Nice job once again. Thanks Nick.
I’ll get in touch with you as I want to float some stuff past you for your views on it, but not here.
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Thanks Nick, you’re a savior of our Country and People reporting the truth of what had happened. The media in this country don’t report new anymore but rather make them and these are the s-called professinal intellectual which I despise…
Thanks again..
Lalida
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“Red Shirts ignored them, walked around and entered through a side entrance, searching for Abhisit. In general, the protesters were noisy, but very well behaved.”
I don’t think that searching for the prime minister presumably to abduct, beat or kill him is a sign of particularly good behaviour. Just as well they didn’t get hold of him or any of the foreign dignitaries in Pattaya for the aborted ASEAN conference.
“Not long after, Red Shirt guards managed to get the two injured men out of the car, and sent them off to hospital safely.”
One moment the car containing two uninjured men is surrounded by a mob of angry red shirts and the next moment the kindly red guards are seeing the now injured two men, one being Niphon Prombhand, the PM’s secrerary general, safely off to hospital. There seem to be some missing details here. You can tell your readers what happened in between without fear they will swoon and burst their bodices.
“There was a small crowd of extremely angry Red Shirts. They attacked every vehicle of the Thai media, angry by the not exactly unbiased reporting.”
Unbelievable. Time to go back to the Big Boss’s less confrontational media strategy of filing criminal defamation charges against unfriendly reporters.
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Bravo! Great reporting Nick!
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Superb reporting, Nick. I particularly liked your insights on why the Thai and international media report from such different perspectives as well as your behind-the-scenes reporting of the blue-shirts. And isn’t it frustrating that Canon makes great lenses and good value camera bodies, but can’t make their cameras as durable as the pro-quality Nikons?
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David Reid – My feeling is that the PM felt personally affronted and retaliated for the loss of face he suffered from the total breakdown of security at Asean.
You can read my ideas on this on my blog, if you wish.
http://ricefieldradio.blogspot.com/
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Nice job Nick! We all owe you a huge debt of gratitude for putting this up here. Who knows how differently I (or others) would be viewing the events of the past year without the benefit of your on-the-ground reporting.
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Brilliant post! Thanks for the hard work, this is the best report I’ve seen to date.
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GREATEST RESPECT to Nick for a good example of TRUE unbiased journalism !
it is a huge relief that still there are good genuine journalists like this.
TRUTH has no color. however in this situation I tend to think that this time truth is on Reds side. because there is a theory by some other great journalists that the real truth is subversive – which means, it usually comes from the GRASSROTS or from the bottom down to the surface. while “Official truth” which is HANDLED down from the top in most cases is either a blatant PROPAGANDA or it is very biased, censored (as well as SELF-censored) and very limited.
yet somehow truth finds its way to the open sooner or later.
this Nick’s great account is one more confirmation of that for me!
Nick, you said – “it is not a complete account”.
I can understand very well what you mean.
so, I am sure that many of us here will be waiting with great anticipation for your COMPLETE ACCOUNT
once again: GREATEST RESPECT !
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Thank you Nick for such a great report that well accounts for any side of the story.
Dear Portman, for pushing and getting into the conference place in Pattaya and injury of 2 men at the Ministry of Interior, both the events could be considered as a conseqence as a result of “How, for example can it happen that PAD guards and Navy personnel can appear disguised as “Blue Shirts”, who have collaborated with the security forces, as is proven beyond doubt, to engage in clashes with Red Shirts? That was not the decision of a local commander – this has been a top level political decision”.
Also the way Thai media demonised the Red-shirt helped persuading that the violent act what provoked by the Red-shirt themselves and almost reported only part of stories on TV and newspaper that favoured the government. This is why ‘some of the protesters got so mad, depressed and angry with Thai media.
May it be better for asking about the results of action by considering what exactly caused it to happen?
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Thanks for your work.
I think it takes two to tango as the old adage goes, however, with respect to the way forward. Certainly Abhisit must reach out, but the Red Shirts have to be willing to compromise as well. That implies both sides are willing to give something up.
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Outstanding Nick. Carefully opined you let the events speak.
No doubt, the most outstanding report of your report series so far.
BangkokDan
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Thank Nick, I am glad at lease we have a real trustable reporter that Thai can be happy to turn on.
We have no hope for any media in Thailand, USA, UK, to believe any news anymore. They already take side to protect their benefits that they have in Thailand.
Thank again.
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Thankyou Nick for such a personal account and for the extraordinary photos. Your work is very important, and I hope we can continue to hear multiple ‘insider’ voices on what’s happening in Bangkok. So sad to see Thailand tearing itself apart.
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Great work, Nick, well done indeed!
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Excellent piece of journalism Nick. You wrote with passion and feeling – the hallmarks of great journalism.
Will any of this be getting into print anywhere?
Andrew
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Thanks Nick…
If Thais want PEACE they ALL have to want and work for the same and that is UNITY. If they do not listen to each other and compromise for the good of Thailand, they will remain stuck in the red-mud.
There is lots to learn from this experience, every Thai should look forward now and I hope they do…
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The two known deaths were local residents of the Nang Lerng market area shot by red shirts. The Muslim residents of Petchburi Soi 7 were attacked by red shirts. So who were the thugs? It all becomes a little bit Alice in Wonderland if you do not care to report with some balance. With provincial godfathers supplying part of the red shirt crowd and as you reported, pro-Thaksin support still so high amongst the police force this is no simple left/right or pro-democratic/anti-democratic dispute.
What about the working class residents of the apartments at the Din Daeng intersection trying to save their homes? Were they thugs also? All I could see were red shirts using Thaksin’s cousin’s gas tankers as a threat to these residents. Some of the Thai left and some of the foreign correspondents like Head have given Thaksin camouflage to hide his ambition.
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Once again a fantastic piece of reporting. There’s a great sense of intimacy in the writing, and with both sides of the conflict at that.
I hope the big media will pick up on this (but I’m not too optimistic – International media has lost interest already, and the local media printing actual reporting is just unthinkable)
There’s way too much in the article to digest in one day. One tidbit I picked up on is the police recording IDs of the red shirt protesters. I’m afraid there will be some serious prosecution in the coming weeks, but it also reminded me of my time in Korea. Back then my girlfriend was sending her resume for job offers, and not only did she have to provide quite extensive personal info, she also had to fill in information on both her parents, including their employment history, address and national ID number. When I asked why these outlandish measures she just answered: oh that’s to filter out people who took part in the leftist student protests in the 70s and 80s…
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A great report. While it was a long piece, everything written was necessary. The gonzo element is very important, and that you make it clear that it is your account gives it a greater impact in regards to evidence of what went on. I feel I was there. Thanks.
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I can’t help but echo the sentiments of all previous comments, but this is a superb account of the situation. It opened my eyes to the harsh reality of what really happened, and I admire your commitment to and understanding of the Thai people, not the foreign press. Also very good integration of photojournalism and written accounts.
It seems the military gave you fairly unprecedented access in the middle of the conflict, they didn’t seem to shoo you to the nearest 5 star hotel.
Once again very well done, I can only wish I had such words for the state of Thai politics.
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Great reporting, Nick!!
And to think that he produces all this most important work essentially unpaid and independently, on a shoe-string budget, while the well-paid editors in Thai papers can only manage to serve their audience with propaganda (though they like to speak about mass media reform…).
Will The Nation or Bangkok Post be daring and humble enough to accept their failings and reprint his reports, and pay him decently for it??
The government will have to do some explaining about the blue shirts… Will its spokesperson come out to admit that they were not “volunteer businesspeople from Pattaya?”
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Great report and pics. Great to have some firsthand sources for once, instead of all the speculation that passes for journalism in the press.
Les Abbey, Nick was reporting what he saw. He didn’t see any dead bodies, red or civilian, as stated clearly. Nor does he make it a left/right polarity, but assigns them responsibility for the uncontrolled part of their protests and chides their further alienation of a biased press. This was a first-hand report, not a lofty editorial. The closest he comes is this:
“The Red Shirts have to be heard, much of what they say is valid criticism, and a contribution to progress in Thailand. To accuse them of simply being tools of Thaksin to get his wealth back, is an extremely dangerous misjudgment based on ideology and not on fact.”
That’s not an ideological endorsement, just a practical observation. And Jonathan Head has consistently referred to Thaksin’s corruption and oppression of the media and human rights, but in the context of being the elected state leader of Thailand. Perhaps that’s too even-handed for you? Head reports facts — coups, history, election results, developments — whereas “Thaksin’s ambitions” are speculation. He’s doing his job professionally, just as Nick is doing his passionately, and both should be applauded for filling the vacuum left by a toothless Thai press (ok, Matichon’s not that bad).
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An excellent, unbiased and concerning report. Well done to you for putting yourself in the firing line.
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Just a brief report with no attempt to paint a full picture just yet?
A one-man account full of “I was tolds…” and other nonsense typical of non-journalists who think a high rating on the blog charts entitles them to muddy the waters in the search of a particular truth.
But you were there of course!
So was I, speaking and listening in Thai. What a travesty that those hired peasants somehow represent the Thais, and that you somehow represent an independent view because you were there.
You have instead helped us deeper into the mire.
Please go away!
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It’s made clear at the beginning that it’s a one-man report. If you then find fault with the piece for being what it quite clearly states that it is, I would respectfully suggest that the problem lies with you, and not with the reporting.
As for “speaking and listening in Thai”, I would also respectfully suggest that that’s not such a unique accomplishment as you seem to imply.
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@Van Tasker,
your rhetoric is somehow classic ( i.e. hired peasant) …. you speak and understand Thai but it wont help you if you can’t open your eyes ….
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Van Tasker
I don’t think Nick is helping Thailand into the mire – it’s doing a pretty good job on its own!
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Great insight into what happened and I for one who has lived around both Yellow and Red Shirts protests in Ratchawat appreciate the reporting of these events. I must say though that there is little doubt where your allegiances lie. Let just hope some peacful solution can be found to this situation and Thailand can be the best it can be.
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Very interesting, and very well reported, but come on, you can not call this unbiased. Bangkok residents who didn’t sympathise with the reds (many of whom were undoubtedly hooligans and provocative) should not all be labelled as PAD. There is nothing wrong with having a bias. Most of us do. But it is very clear where your symphasies lie and your reporting was biased accordingly. However, you shed light on many frightening facts being hidden by the Thai media/government/army and I think it is very important what you do. Biased or not.
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Van Tasker
It’s pity to see your opinion. I am Thai, educated as highest as the university can give to people. I travelled to see more than twenty countries in every continent. I am not Taksin follower but I like his policy and what he did to the poor during his term as Priminister. I, and many other friends are not the kind of people that money can buy. Many people want to go to Bangkok on protesting but they didnot have enough money to stay long. Many of us donated the money for them to go to filled their ambitious.
I am very much disappointed to see the journalists from USA and UK changed their versions two days after the clashed after reported the truths for many days.
I just wonder if they can buy?? I was depressed so much.
As soon as I saw Nick’s article, I felt better.
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Having been in Pattaya the other weekend when the Asean summit was due to take place, I can say that apart from around the Royal Cliff hotel and peach conference hall, and other than traffic problems, there were no other reports of violence and problems within the city. The following day however when the red shirts moved onto Bangkok, this was obviously not the case. Thaksin has a large part to play in this, as he should not have spurred his followers on in such a way, even using words like revolution. Thai people are normally friendly decent folk, who do not take part in violent clashes as we all saw. I only hope that someone can reconcile these 2 groups. Thailand is still a great country where everyday most people constantly smile and have fun. Let’s hope the Songkran holiday can help a little. Thailand relies on tourism and as such can well do without these on street battles.
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Thanks
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Thanks for this great report, Nick. I saw the dark side I did not know about.
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one word, brilliant!!
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Van Tasker’s comments and those of other such as Portman and LesAbbey deserve serious attention. Thaksin buys the international media, they ignore Thaksin’s faults, the peasants are revolting (in more ways than one).
These views are remarkably common especially in Thailand amongst yellows and the Democrats. I keep receiving emails from educated and previously politically progressive persons who keep making these points.
I have had a long debate with a politician who repeatedly states that Chang Noi is hired by Thaksin and the evidence is that they have “never” written about Thaksin’s faults, most especially the war on drugs. When I give him copies of articles where they have done exactly that, he shuts up. When the political temperature goes up again, I receive the same comments again. Back to square 1 as he sends me all the emails from his friends who make all the same accusations. Their conversations are self-reinforcing.
One has to ask why this is? I think it is fear. Fear that the ideological structures are collapsing. Fear that the military and police are no longer reliable in keeping the unwashed in their place. Fear that the ruffians will burn their houses down.
Looking through the pictures from the uprising, they may be right to worry and be scared.
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Unbiased reporting? you must be kidding! what about pictures of the red shirt making cocktail molotovs, what about the busses on fire? what about the red shirt man stomping on Niphon Prompan? What about the destruction of property?
Give me a break.
This is a carefully edited reporting by someone who has clearly taken sides, as he states that he “thinks” that soldiers have killed some red shirts.
Considering the aggressive behavior of the red shirt compared to the PAD, it is amazing that there were so few casualties.
Two innocent civilians, who were trying to protect their homes from the leaking gas trucks brought by the red shirts, were killed, by red shirts.
No apologies by red shirts, just unsubstantiated claims that some of “theirs” had been killed. No names, nothing after 4 days.
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Very well said, North. (#36)
A great and sensational piece of first-hand report? Definitely.
But an excellent piece of journalism? Come on!
Even Nick himself didn’t pretend to be an unbiased journalist. This is clearly NOT a report which offered a balanced view of the event.
A Thai (#19 and 37), you seem to imply that you have a PhD. So what?
Do you really think the American and British Press can be bought by the Thai authority or whoever? It’s more than a pity to see what you wrote. Your assertion is as silly as a child’s. And you expect people to believe you have a doctoral degree?
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” It is more than important though that Red Shirts have a voice in the media.”
It appears fairly clear that they have found at least one.
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Outstanding piece of work, Nick. Don’t worry about showing your bias. Everyone is biased. You took the trouble to point out that this report was written from your own particular viewpoint and made no claims that it was the whole truth. That job will have to be left to historians.
It was a privilege to meet you inside the Royal Cliff as the reds were streaming in. Keep up the good work.
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Plato
A Thai (#19 and 37), you seem to imply that you have a PhD. So what?
Do you really think the American and British Press can be bought by the Thai authority or whoever? It’s more than a pity to see what you wrote. Your assertion is as silly as a child’s. And you expect people to believe you have a doctoral degree?
Yes I am silly enough to think that the way the US Ambassador went to see Prem and UK Ambassador discussed with Apisit and then the news fronm CNN and BBC changed into the way similar to the propaganda by Thai TV.
I am Thai, I told my background because you usually blame that we are uneducated. I have my right to think about what going on. What can I think is They protect their benefits such as Tesco-Lotus which wide spreads in every city in Thailand and the oil company. That the way I think money can buy one way or the other ways.
We are Thai, we have to think what going on in the world when the media think it is right to kill bare hands Thai by Thai solders under Apisit government ordered. And most of the wavesite that we used were closed, only one channel TV that report differently was also closed.
Enjoy your luxury lie from Thai media.
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Here is a link by a friend bystander who followed the last 2 days of riots, and his comment to his friends abroad, enquiring about his and his wife’ safety. The author has given me permission to publish the following:
“This morning the Red Shirt faction decided to call it quits and have stopped their protests. This had more than a little to do with the fact that, despite weeks of effort and the expense of considerable coin, they could not even raise a crowd as big as that found at a typical Thai department store on a slow day.
I believe the crucial event occurred Monday when the red shirts attempted to occupy Siam Square. If there is one thing you don’t mess with in Thailand, it is shopping, and they clearly crossed that line.
For those who are interested, I’ve put up a photo gallery of shots I made in the last two days. You can see it here:
http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/photo-galleries/thai-rak-thai-express/index.html“
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@Van Tasker: perhaps you could write your own report, seeing as you “were there” and are able to “speak and hear Thai”
Thanks, Nick for a great first hand account. personal opinion and bias are bound to creep in, but I don’t doubt your underlying honesty.
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I am relieved that many here seem to appreciate my work, thank you very much.
To answer a few points of criticism: I am sympathetic to the Red Shirts, and i think that is important. I am coming from a school of photojournalism that has the (outdated?) ideal of giving a voice to the people that generally have no voice in society, and who usually are the poor. The vast majority of Red Shirts are from economically disadvantaged backgrounds, and are demonized by the mass media, especially here in Thailand. I believe that they have very many reasons for their complaints, and do express them with much clarity, yet maybe not as eloquently as a person with a university degree. One just has to open one’s ears and heart, and listen to what they have to say.
I believe that i am much less biased than the majority in the media that demonizes these people without allowing them a voice, which simplistically labels them uneducated thugs that are bought by Thaksin. Thaksin Shinawatra in an ideal world would be an unlikely hero for those disadvantaged sectors of society, but here in Thailand, looking at things from their perspective, they have not much choice, because there are no alternatives for them. The other side has a history of giving much spin, but no, or very little, achievements in real terms in easing the burden of the poor.
If i support Thaksin or not is completely besides the point, however, i do have to respect the choice of the people who support him. And there are more than a few sectors in the Red Shirts who do not support Thaksin, and have a proven history of not having done so.
However, to answer the ones who have accused me of having done a carefully edited text supporting the Red Shirts, should go back, and read the text and have a look at the photos again. I have pointed out criticism clearly, such as the incident with Nipon Prombhand, and have reported them as i saw them from closest distance. I am sorry if it goes against your views, but there were Red Shirt guards and ordinary Red Shirt protesters who have protected Nipon from the more angry members of the crowd. If there weren’t these people, he would be dead now.
I have added images of Red Shirts chasing away the firefighters.
Would i have done so if i would have wanted to present a carefully edited and cleaned up text with the aim of misleading readers into believing that Red Shirts are angels? I could have easily left these images and events out of my report. Regardless of my sympathies – i am primarily a photojournalist. I record and report. I am not an activist or propagandist.
I have not mentioned the gas tank at Din Daeng apartments because i was not there. I could not have possibly been everywhere at the same time. I work alone, unless i have a writer next to me, and can’t split myself into two, i have no office workers that scan news and police radio and who can then send me or a coworker to where things might happen.
I do not trust any second and third hand information, especially one that has not been confirmed by several trusted and proven sources of mine. As an example of why i do not do this i can only cite the events at Petchaburi Soi 5. I have read much about the Red Shirts causing havoc there, aggravating locals. Yet rarely do i read that guns were fired out of there, and that several Red Shirts were wounded by those guns.
We get so much spin on events, that it is almost impossible to get down to the bare facts. Therefore i decided to write what i have seen, and no more. When i have not directly seen things, which though are important to the report, i have made that clear as well.
I can only challenge my critics here to please go out themselves and to do their own reporting, and then write what they have seen and experienced. I have not reserved the sole position to report on these events. Anybody can do this. In this day and age of the WWW anybody can do what previously only journalists did. There is always more than one view on things, and interpretations of events can differ.
It would even make my life a lot less dangerous if at times there would be more reporters around doing what i do, because it would draw attention away from me. Do not think that i am entirely comfortable with having my name around all the time. No big network that can back me up, and i have not enough money to buy me security in case things go wrong. I have to rely on my wits, and the goodwill of friends.
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I believe that i am much less biased than the majority in the media that demonizes these people without allowing them a voice, which simplistically labels them uneducated thugs that are bought by Thaksin.
Nick,
I don’t think you give yourself enough credit here. Having seen some of your stuff on Thaksin’s drug war, you really have substantive reasons – and legitimate personal reasons – for hating Thaksin. Certainly better reasons that those pro-yellow armchair warriors who vent at him in online forums. That you don’t let this affect your reporting here is truly a testament to your integrity as a journalist.
Keep up the good work!
-Tettyan
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Nick: Thanks for your efforts and your explanations.
Your (slight) bias is understandable, and I think most of us here have some sympathy for the red shirts, however I am unable to extend that sympathy to Thaksin, and most of the other elites, because they have already had too many chances to change their spots.
Stay safe & hopefully you can be well (or even adequately) rewarded for your efforts.
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Ralph Kramden #42
I can’t speak for Les Abbey and Van Tasker or the millions of Thais whom Ralph similarly labels here but I am more than willing to take seriously a red shirt movement that is no longer about restoring the Thaksin kleptocracy and giving him back his ill gotten gains to resume his fascist style of governance complete with widespread abuse of human rights, suppression of freedom of speech, tampering with independent agencies, liberal use of criminal defamation and LM suits to destroy his enemies etc etc. To quote from Ajarn Giles again the intention of Thaksin’s populist policies was to buy social peace at the lowest possible price. He had no plan to fund the 30 baht healthcare plan to make it viable which would have required significantly raising the tax base to the disadvantage of wealthy capitalists like himself. He had no meaningful policies to improve education which ultimately would lead to better educated voters rejecting corrupt politicians like himself, as they eventually did in South Korea.
Time was that the Democrats were seen as left of centre in the Thai political spectrum, where real left wingers traditionally disappeared or were publicly liquidated with the cold war or memories of it used as justification. To the right of them were out and out corrupt parties like Chart Thai and Samak’s Prachakorn Thai, comprised largely of provincial chao pors of Chinese origin (Samak was an exception only in as much as he and his party were urban) who saw politics primarily as a business in itself and a way to protect their existing businesses, many of which were illegal. These old style politicians were more than ready to ally themselves with the military after coups and bloody suppressions, if offered cabinet seats, as in 1976 and 1992. Thaksin is the ultimate evolution of the latter type of politician but with a populist spin that has now morphed into a “true” democracy spin for the benefit of the Western media and foreign academics, in contrast to the early days of his rule where democracy was not the aim itself but a “means to an end”. It is unfortunate that in the process of dumping corrupt politicians like Sanan the Democrats allowed themselves to be outflanked as the Chinese chao por movement consolidated and revamped its image under Thaksin, leaving the Democrats haplessly morooned to the right of them. I have to admit that under Chuan’s leadership the Democrats also missed big opportunities provided by the widespread revulsion of the military and the chao por politicians to win hearts and minds in the North and Northeast. As an example Chuan, as PM, allowed the Pak Moon dam protestors in Ubon to be savagely beaten up by EGAT thugs, despite their extremely valid grievance, and ignored the representatives of the poor farmers who camped outside Government House for months. So yes, I agree that the Democrats have missed their chance and left a vacuum that needs to be filled by genuinely altruistic politicians who are not exploitive chao por types to represent rural people. If the red shirts without Thaksin and devoid of leaders who encourage violence can fit this bill, then great as far as I am concerned.
Definitely city people are worried that the ruffians will burn their houses down, rape their women and murder them. As you say, the pictures of the red shirt riots are ample justification of these fears but the people most threatened by them are the working class city people, bizarrely labeled as PAD by Nick, that rose up against the red shirt thugs who barricaded them in their districts, shot them with pistols and tried to blow them up with gas tankers, not to mention the Muslims in Petchburi Road who were attacked by red shirts, presumably for racist motives.
It may turn out to be a case of be careful what you wish for. A restored Thaksin would be extremely anxious to prove that the tamed dog’s loyalty to the crown is beyond reproach. So we could expect a ferocious crackdown on LM suspects including foreigners. One of the first acts of new Thaksin government might be to block New Mandala and arrest those in Thailand who have posted articles deemed disrespectful of the monarchy and declare those outside the country persona non grata.
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“And it has to stop lying that only fake bullets were used, and only fired into the air. I have photos of bullet holes, where I have seen soldiers firing. The bullet that passed a few meters above my head in the leaves of a tree under which I was hiding in the early hours at Din Daeng was not a fake bullet or sprung out of my imagination, and given the distance and angle of the shooter from the military lines, the difference of the elevation of the muzzle was not more than a few centimeters. This was clearly a shot fired in the direction of the crowd and not into the sky. I have seen soldiers refilling their magazines with copperhead bullets. They were not fake bullets.”
Can you share with us your photos of the bullet holes and the copper clad full metal jacket rounds being loaded?
Actually the army did not say they only used fake ammunition. If you look back at their statements, they said they used blanks and practice rounds. What the Thai army calls practice rounds are usually cheap, low powered lead tipped rounds used for target practice. Of course these are lethal at relatively short range but are less likely to pass through rioters and hit the people behind them or penetrate poorly constructed buildings. On the other hand practice rounds are likely to do more damage to people they hit because they will expand and tumble around in the body.
Where are the copper clad slugs fired by the army? If they fired any, could they have managed to pick up all of them and gouge them out of buildings and trees? If they were firing them into the air, many would have travelled a kilometre or more before coming down and it would have been very hard to find them all, not to mention the possibility of unintended injuries and deaths away from the riot scenes. There are pictures of soldiers with this ammo in their bandoliers but I haven’t seen any pictures of them being loaded into magazines or any spent slugs.
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The “bullet” that passed a few metres of Mr Nostitz’s head?
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blank_(cartridge)
Blank cartridges frequently contain a paper or plastic plug which seals the powder in the case called a wad. This wad can cause bruising at medium ranges and severe penetrating wounds at close range. There is also a cloud of hot, expanding gas which is expelled at extremely high velocity from the muzzle when a blank cartridge is fired. These high velocity gases can inflict severe injuries (see powerhead for an example) at close ranges. Additionally, if there is any small debris lodged inside the barrel it will be expelled at a similar velocity to a bullet, with the ability to inflict a severe wound. Finally, the extremely loud noise of blanks being fired can damage the hearing of people in the immediate area.
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Again Nick, thanks for the excellent report and it is worth the eager wait. Although I disagree with your Red-tied-to-Thaksin sympathies (my thoughts are more consistent with Portman #53 above), I commend you for your honest reporting while being transparent of your biases. Ironically, it is a ‘cool-headed’ Red like you, who have sincere concern for the Thai poor (unlike the manipulative PMThaksin and the Red Elites), who should assume leadership. You have demonstrated your full participation, in good faith, by stopping the radicalized ‘hot-headed’ Reds from further violence in front of the Ministry of Interior on the 12th. I thank you for those brave actions. Yes, a death of a politician, whether the prime minister or his secretary-general, would likely kill the movement in one stroke (and which mafia-type Red leader laid down this strategy I wonder? The PAD never physically attacked any politicians from the opposing side and for very good reasons. On the other hand, these practices were apparent since PMThaksin was in power with PMChuan and Abhisit violently chased from a political campaign in Chiang Mai). For me, a death on any side, is a death too much.
As you also mentioned, the proliferation of the internet and phone cameras/vdo have made anyone capable of some form of photojournalism. Here is well-written one (sorry, it is in Thai) from a Nang-Lerng local that I got forwarded today. It came with photographs too which does not show when I copy and paste.
คนนางเลิ้งปะทะคนเสื้อแดง
Posted by KaaTip , ผู้อ่าน : 2348 , 02:19:52 น.
พิมพ์หน้านี้
13 เมษายน 2552
หลัง จากตื่นเช้ามา ในช่วงประกาศภาวะฉุกเฉิน ไปตลาดนางเลิ้งเพื่อหาของกิน สิ่งแรกที่ได้รับรู้จากคนแถวนั้น คือโดนลื้อของและถูกขโมยถังแก๊สไป ทุกร้านโดนขโมยหมด พอกลับมาดูข่าว ทำให้รู้ว่า คนเสื้อแดง เอาถังแก๊สไปเพื่อใช้วางเพลิงตามถนน – -
ระหว่างที่เดินไปตลาดเริ่มสังเกตุ รถเมลล์ พอดูดีๆ งง จริงๆ เอายางรถไปวางไว้ใต้ล่างทำไมหว่า แถมมีน้ำอะไรไม่รู้ เหลืองๆแปลกๆ
นั้นก็คือน้ำมันที่พร้อมจะจุดไฟ ได้ทุกเวลานั้นเอง ((ขอบอก รถเมลล์นี้ สาย 511 )
ตอน บ่าย อยู่ในบ้าน อยู่ๆได้กลิ่นเหมือนมีอะไรไหม้ ที่บ้านก็โทรมาบอกว่า ระแวกบ้านมีการเผารถเมลล์แล้ว ก็คือมีที่ แยกผ่านฟ้า แยกหลานหลวง แยกยมราช พอขึ้นไปดูบนดาดฟ้า สามารถมองเห็นควันไฟทั้ง 3 จุด หลังจากนั้น
พอ มองไปที่จุด ที่รถเมลล์คันนี้จอดอยู่ ดิฉันเห็นชาวบ้านธรรมดา ที่ไม่ได้ใส่เสื้อแดง ไปยืนอยู่แถวๆรถเมลล์คันนั้น(ขออภัยค่ะ พอดีไม่ได้ถ่ายตอนคนเยอะ) แรกๆที่เห็นคนราวๆกว่า50คนได้ค่ะ บางคนก็วิ่งขึ้นไปบนรถ ส่วนคนส่วนใหญ่จะอยู่ด้านนอกค่ะ แล้ว ชาวบ้านก็ช่วยกันเข็นรถเมลล์เหมือนจะให้รถเมลล์ หันเป็นเส้นตรง จากตอนแรกที่ขวางถนนเอาไว้ สักพัก คนของม็อบเสื้อแดง ก็มา แล้วคิดว่าคงเกิดการโต้เถียงกัน
ดิฉันได้เห็นคนเสื้อแดง มายืนใกล้ๆบ้านแล้ว ตะโกนว่า “เผามันเลย เผาเลย” พูดซ้ำๆ อยุ่แบบนี้ จนดิฉันใจเสียเลยค่ะ พอมองกลับไปที่รถเมลล์จอดอยู่ ชาวบ้านหายไป สักพักเดียว ชาวบ้านก็กลับมา พร้อมกับจำนวนที่มากขึ้นค่ะ งวดนี้ดิฉันว่าน่าจะราวๆ 100 คนได้ค่ะ จากนั้นคนเสื้อแดงก็ หายไปจากแถวๆถนนค่ะ
จากนั้น ดิฉันก็เห็นชาวบ้านแถวนางเลิ้ง ช่วยกันดันรถเมลล์ ให้ห่างจาก จุดที่มีน้ำมันราดอยู่ ถ้ามองจากรูปจะเห็นได้ว่าเข็นมาได้ไกลมากๆค่ะ
ตอนที่ดูอยู่ ดิฉันเริ่มสังเกตุ ว่าคนที่ช่วยกันดันรถ ล้วนแต่เป็นเด็กวัยรุ่นทั้งนั้นเลยค่ะ อายุก็ราวๆ 15 ปีขึ้นไปค่ะ ไม่เกิน30ปี เมื่อ เข็นสำเร็จ วัยรุ่นเหล่านี้ ก็ทำท่าไชโย โห่ร้องด้วยความดีใจ ว่าเข็นมาได้ไกล จากจุดที่เป็นชุมชนของพวกเค้าค่ะ (แต่เวงแท้ๆ นี่มานหน้าบ้านฉานนนนนนน) เพราะจากจุดเดิมนั้น จะอยู่ใกล้ๆชุมชนวัดแคนางเลิ้ง กับชุมชนวัดโสมนัสค่ะ(ประกอบกับชุมชนตลาดนางเลิ้งด้วยค่ะ) แถวนั้นจะเป็นบ้านไม้เก่าๆหมดเลยค่ะ ซึ่งถือว่าอันตรายมากถ้าเกิดจุดไฟเผา และบนรถเมลล์คาดว่าจะมีถังแก๊สด้วยค่ะ ดิฉัน อดที่จะตบมือให้พวกวัยรุ่นที่มีความสามัคคีแบบนี้ไม่ได้เลยค่ะ
จากนั้นที่มุมล่างของรูป จะมีรถเครนของคนเสื้อแดงขับมาค่ะ แล้วมาจอดมองวัยรุ่นนางเลิ้ง ตามมาด้วยมอเตอร์ไซ อีก1คันค่ะ ดิฉันก็ไม่ทราบว่าเค้าคุยอะไรกัน มอเตอร์ไซ ก็คับไปทางแยกผ่านฟ้าค่ะ สักพักนึง ก็มีมอเตอร์ไซของคนเสื้อแดง จำนวน5-6คัน ขับมาที่รถเมลล์ค่ะ วัยรุ่นก็เริ่มวิ่งหนี กลับไปจุดแรกที่รถเมลล์คันนี้จอดอยู่ แล้วคนเสื้อแดงก็ตะโกนบอกเพื่อนว่า “แม่… พวกเห….นี้ อยากตายนักใช่ไหม” ,”ไปตามคนมาเพิ่ม” จากนั้น ดิฉันก็วิ่งลงจากดาดฟ้า ไปแอบเปิดดูหน้าต่างตรงชั้น 2 ดิฉันได้ยินเสียงพวกเค้าคุยชัดมาก เพราะพวกเสื้อแดงเค้าตะโกนคุยกันค่ะ
เค้าบอกว่า “ให้ไปเอาน้ำมัน มา จะต้องเผารถเมลล์คันนี้” จากนั้นวัยรุ่นนางเลิ้ง ก็วิ่งเข้าหาคนเสื้อแดง ส่วนคนเสื้อแดงบางคนก็วิ่งเข้าไป ตีกับวัยรุ่นค่ะ พอ เสื้อแดงเริ่มถอย ดิฉันก็เห็นคนเสื้อแดง ปาอะไรก็ไม่รุ้ค่ะ แล้วตามมาด้วยเสียง ดังมากๆๆๆๆๆๆ บ้านดิฉัน สั่นไปหมดค่ะ ดิฉันเลยรีบปิดหน้าต่าง แล้ววิ่งเข้าด้านในค่ะ ดิฉันได้ยินเสียง ตู๊ม!!!ๆๆ ถ้าให้นับจำนวนเสียงก็ราวๆ 5 ครั้งค่ะ แล้วก็ได้ยินเสียง ให้ พาคนมาเพิ่มอีก
พอดีจุดนี้ดิฉันไม่มี ภาพให้ดูค่ะ แต่ญาติที่อยู่ในบ้านด้วยกัน มีถ่ายวีดีโอมือถือไว้ค่ะ และได้เอาไปลงใน youtube.comแล้ว ค่ะ รู้สึกจะมีลิ้งนึง เป็นเสียง+ภาพ ตนที่เสื้อแดงยิงคนนางเลิ้งช่วงกลางคืนค่ะ ภาพไม่ค่อยเห็นนักค่ะ แต่จะได้ยินเสียงปืนดังมากค่ะ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r4egcJgEOc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS3CkvNyl9M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wtMa4zZ-_o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN-fJ7hHH0A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suG0Lt2huvk
จาก นั้นดิฉันก็ขึ้นดาดฟ้าอีกครั้ง มองลงไปดู เห็นรถตำรวจก็เข้ามา แล้วลงมาจากรถ ตำรวจจะยืนอยู่ตรงคนเสื้อแดงค่ะ แล้วเหตุการณ์ปะทะกันก็สงบลง เมื่อมองไปดูทางวัยรุ่นนางเลิ้ง จะเห็นได้ว่าคนเริ่มมาเพิ่มมากขึ้น ออกมาจากชุมชนวัดโสมนัสเยอะค่ะ จากทางวัดแคจะมาอยู่ก่อนแล้วค่ะ จากที่เห็นว่า มีเป็น 100 คน ในช่วงนี้ดูได้ว่าน่าจะสัก200-300คนค่ะ
10 นาที ผ่านไปเหตุการณ์ยังคงสงบอยู่ค่ะ เมื่อมองไปทางที่ไกลออกไปจากส่วนที่วัยรุ่นอยู่ ก็คือแยกเทวกรรม ใกล้ๆตลาดนางเลิ้ง จากที่มีแค่รั่วกลั้น ของคนเสื้อแดง ตรงจุดนั้นคนเสื้อแดงมาสมทบเยอะมากค่ะ คิดว่าคงมาจากธรรมเนียบฯค่ะ ตอนนี้ดูแล้วเหมือนวัยรุ่นก็เริ่ม จะถูกประกบจากคนเสื้อแดง ทั้งจากแยกเทวกรรมและ ตรงแยกนครสวรรค์ จะเห็นได้ว่า ณ ตอนนี้ คนนางเลิ้งก็เริ่มออกมาจากบ้านสมทบมากขึ้น มีคนเล่าให้ฟังว่า ช่วงนั้นชาวบ้านที่ถูกเสื้อแดงปิดล้อม ต้องแบ่งกันหัน ไปคนละทางเพื่อดูว่า ทางไหนจะมาเล่นงานกลุ่มของตนเอง
ผ่านไป 5นาที เสื้อแดงตรงแยกนครสวรรค์(ก็คือแยกนางเลิ้งนั้นเอง) เริ่มปาอะไรบางอย่าง เมื่อมันตกลงพื้น ก็มีไฟลุกขึ้นมา สันนิฐานได้ว่าน่าจะเป็นขวดเครื่องดื่มชูกำลัง ที่ใส่น้ำมัน ที่เค้าเรียกว่าระเบิดเพลิงค่ะ ในคลิปวีดีโอ จะมีภาพตอนเสื้อแดงแจกขวดระเบิดเพลิงกันค่ะ พอวัยรุ่นเห็นแบบนั้น ก็เริ่มวิ่งไปหาเสื้อแดงที่แยกนครสวรรค์ แล้วปาขวดน้ำพลาสติกใส่เสื้อแดงค่ะ แต่บางตรงๆว่ามีวัยรุ่นปาขวดแค่3คนค่ะ แล้วก็มีปาไม้ อีก 1 คนค่ะ
สัก พักเสื้อแดง ตรงแยกนี่ก็เดินไปหากลุ่มวัยรุ่นค่ะ วัยรุ่นพอเห็นแบบนั้น ก็เริ่มวิ่งเข้าใส่ ชนิดที่ว่า ไม่กลัวอะไรเลยค่ะ แต่เสื้อแดงเอง ก็รีบวิ่งหนีค่ะ ตำรวจยังคงอยู่ที่เดิมนะค่ะ แต่มีจำนวนน้อยค่ะ ไม่ถึง10คน ค่ะ พอวัยรุ่น ตอบโต้เสื้อแดง ตำรวจจะเดินเข้าไปทำท่าเหมือนต่อว่า คนที่ทำค่ะ(เดินหาวัยรุ่นนะค่ะ) จากที่คุยกับคนแถวนั้น เค้าบอกว่า ตำรวจ พูดกับวัยรุ่นว่า “พวกมึ.. อย่าไปทำเค้า” วัยรุ่นก็ตอบว่า “จะให้ผมทำยังไง มันปาระเบิดใส่ผมนะ”
จากนั้นดิฉันก็ลงไปชั้น2 แอบเปิดหน้าต่างดเหมือนเดิมค่ะ เห็นคนเสื้อแดงหันมาทุบรถเมลล์แทน แล้วก็เริ่มปล่อยลมยาง ล้อหน้าทั้ง2ข้างค่ะ โดยเอาไม้ท่อนใหญ่ๆกดลงไปที่ยางค่ะ แล้วเอากาวตราช้างหยอดลงไปที่จุก ที่ไว้ปั๊มลมค่ะ
แล้วคนเสื้อแดง คาดว่าน่าจะเป็นหัวหน้ากล่มนี้ ตะโกนสั่งว่า “กลับเว้ย อยู่ไปก็ไม่มีประโยชน์” แล้วคนเสื้อแดงก็พากัน ขึ้นรถมอเตอร์ไซ พาพวกกลับไปทางแยกผ่านฟ้าค่ะ
พอวัยรุ่นเห็นดังนั้น ก็ตบมือโห่ร้องด้วยความดีใจ ตะโกน “เหี้….ๆๆๆๆๆๆๆๆๆๆๆๆๆๆๆ” ถือว่าเป็นชัยชนะของ คนนางเลิ้งค่ะ(แต่เมื่อตกค่ำ เพราะเหตุการณ์นี้ ทำให้เกิดโศกนาฏกรรมขึ้นกับคนนางเลิ้ง) เมื่อเหตุการณ์สงบลงทุกอย่าง ตำรวจก็มากันเพิ่มค่ะ((จะมาทำไมตอนนี้หว่า ก่อนหน้านี้ทำไมไม่มา))
จาก รูปด้านบน จะมีคนเสื้อแดงขี่มอเตอร์ไซ น่าเสียดายที่ไม่สามารถถ่ายหน้ามาได้ เพราะคนๆนี้ คือคนที่พาแก๊งเสื้อแดงมาค่ะ และเป็นคนตะโกนออกคำสั่ง ให้คนเสื้อแดงทำอะไรบ้าง ตรงแยกนครสวรรค์ เมื่อพลังจากที่เค้าสั่งให้เสื้อแดงกลับ คนๆนี้ก็ ขับมอเตอร์ไซ มาดูราดราว ตลอดเวลา
ต่อ มา ดิฉันก็ขึ้นไปบนดาดฟ้า วัยรุ่นก็ยังชุมนุมกันอยู่ เพื่อระวังไม่ให้เสื้อแดงฝังแยกเทวกรรม เข้ามาทำร้ายพวกเค้า ฝูงชนตะโกน ว่า “ออกไป ออกไปๆ” ผ่านไป 30นาที มีมอเตอร์ไซด์ขับมาจาก แยกผ่านฟ้า ประมาน 6 คัน ทุกคัน จะมีคนซ้อนท้ายมาด้วย ตลอด ทางมอเตอร์ไซคนเสื้อแดง จะบีบแตร เป็นทางยาวมาตลอด ทุกคันบีบแตรนะค่ะ แล้ว จงใจขับเข้าไปหาฝูงชน คนนางเลิ้ง มอเตอร์ไซ ขับผ่านตำรวจ(รูปด้านบน ดูตำแหน่งที่ตำรวจยืนได้ค่ะ) เมื่อเข้าไป วัยรุ่น ก็วิ่งกรูกันเข้าไป พอเสื้อแดงเห็นดังนั้น กลับเบรครถ แล้วหันหลังกลับ ขับหนีไปอย่างเร็ว พอพวกเสื้อแดงขับหนีไป วัยรุ่น ร้องโห่ด้วยความดีใจ
ผ่านไป20นาที คนของ ขสมก. ก็ขับรถมา และก็ตรวจสภาพรถเมลล์ จากนั้น ก็ขึ้นไปขับรถเมลคันนั้น ออกไปจากถนนนครสวรรค์ค่ะ คาดว่าคงกลับอู่ซ่อมค่ะ
ผ่านไป 1 ชม. ก็ราวๆ 5โมง เย็นได้ค่ะ (คือเรื่องนี้เกิดขึ้น ตั้งแต่ เสื้อแดงเผารถเมลล์ที่แยกผ่านฟ้าใหม่ๆเลยค่ะ ก็ช่วงบ่ายต้นๆได้ค่ะ) ดิฉันเห็นว่า ทุกอย่างสงบเลยไป 7-11 รีบซื้อของกิน มาเก็บเอาไว้ เพราะกลัวว่าเหตุการณ์ความไม่สงบจะยาวนานจนออกนอกบ้านไม่ได้ ดิฉันเจอคนๆนึงท่าทางมีพิรุด เป็นผู้ชายตัวดำๆ ไว้ผมยาว วัย40-50ปี ใส่เสื้อสีเขียว ทำท่าแปลกๆ แถมด้านหลังมีวิทยุสื่อสาร ที่คิดว่าแปลกเพราะ พอค่ำ ดิฉันก็เจอคนๆนี้ ขับมอเตอร์ไซมาแล้วก็เปลี่ยนเสื้อด้วยค่ะ ตอนค่ำเห็นใส่เสื้อสีเลือดหมูค่ะ (เสื้อทั้ง2ตัวเป็นเสื้อเชิ้ตค่ะ) ตอนหลังจึงได้รู้ว่า คนๆนี้คือสายของคนเสื้อแดงค่ะ(เป็นการคาดการณ์เองนะค่ะ ไม่แน่อาจเป็นคนของรัฐ ก็ได้ – -)
จากที่เข้าไปนั่งในบ้านสบายๆชิวๆ พอ6โมง เย็น ฟ้าก็เริ่มมืดลง ดิฉันก็ออกมาเดินเล่น ก็ยังเห็นวัยรุ่น อยู่ที่จุดเดิม จากที่คุยกับคนแถวนั้น ช่วงที่ดิฉันนั่งในบ้าน คนเสื้อแดงจากแยกเทวกรรม ก็วิ่งใส่ฝูงชนเหมือนกันค่ะ เป็นครั้งคราว แต่คนไม่มากเท่าไหร่ค่ะ จึงไม่ค่อยรุนแรงมากนัก ตอน นี้ดิฉันก็เดินไปปะปนในกลุ่มวัยรุ่นนางเลิ้งบางค่ะ พวกเค้าเริ่มทำตัวสบายๆ เล่นกันบ้าง สาดน้ำกันบ้างค่ะ จากที่สังเกตุตอนนี้ ไม่ใช่แค่วัยรุ่นระแวกนางเลิ้งอย่างเดียว คนวัยกลางคน ขึ้นไป ก็เริ่มมาสมทบเหมือนกันค่ะ
ใน ฝูงชน มีคนที่ถืออุปกรณ์ที่ไว้ป้องกันตัวเอง เช่น ไม้ ท่อเหล็ก อีโต้ มีด ดาบยาว ขอรับร้องว่าไม่มีปืนหรือระเบิดในฝูงชนค่ะ ถ้าเทียบกับการที่ต้องเจอโจรร้ายที่มีปืนกับระเบิด ดิฉันว่าของป้องกันตัวพวกนี้มันยังน้อยไปค่ะ
น่า แปลกใจที่ ดิฉันรู้สึกชื่นชมการกระทำของวัยรุ่นเหล่านี้มากๆค่ะ ถ้าพวกเค้าไม่เริ่มออกมาดันรถเมลล์ ก็คงไม่มีการรวมตัวกันของวัยรุ่นจาก2ฝั่ง คือชุมชนวัดโสมนัสกับวัดแคค่ะ ตลอดจนผู้ใหญ่ ที่ออกมาช่วยกันปกป้องชุมชนแหล่งที่อยู่ของพวกเค้าเอง ถ้าปล่อยให้เสื้อแดงเผารถ แล้วบ้านที่อยู่ติดกับรถเมลล์ ในตำแหน่งที่รถเมลล์ขวางถนนแบบแนวนอน มันใกล้บ้านคนมากๆ แถมรถเมลล์คันนี้เป็น NGV ยูโร สีส้ม แล้วไหนจะน้ำมันกับถังแก๊ส ที่หายไปจากตลาดอีก ไม่น่าคิดอีกต่อไปแล้ว บ้านคนคงไหม้กันไปเป็นแถวยาวแน่นอน แล้วสภาวะฉุกเฉินแบบนี้ รถดับเพลิงจะเข้ามาถึงหรือ ขนาดโทรหา 191 กับ 1197 แจ้งเหตุ ยังไม่มีคนรับสายเลย วินาทีนี้ คือการพึ่งพาตัวเองค่ะ
ดิฉัน รู้สึกว่าวัยรุ่นเหล่านี้ นอกจากจะเกเรไปวันๆ พวกเค้ากลับสามารถปกป้องชุมชนของเค้าได้ ในอนาคต ประเทศชาติก็คงฝากไว้ที่มือพวกเค้าได้เช่นกันค่ะ เหมือนที่คนชอบพูดว่า เยาวชนคืออนาคตของชาตินั้นแหละค่ะ
22.30 น. ตอนนี้ กำลังนั่งดูละคร สบายๆ ดิฉัน ได้ยินเสียงดัง เหมือนมีคนยิงประทัดเลยค่ะ เป็นชุดอยู่เหมือนกัน (ก็ราวๆ5-10รอบได้ค่ะ) ตอนแรกคิดว่าวัยรุ่นเล่นประทัดกัน(เพราะอยู่ในห้องเปิดแอร์ จึงได้ยินเสียงเบากว่าปกติ) สัก พักคนที่บ้านโทรมาบอก ว่า คนเสื้อแดง มาโจมตีคนแถววัดโสมนัส ดิฉัน ตกใจมาก เลยรีบวิ่งไปดูที่ดาดฟ้า ได้ยินเสียงเหมือนฟ้าผ่า ดังลั่นสนั่นไปหมด ดิฉันไม่แน่ใจว่า มันคือเสียงของระเบิดหรือว่าปืน คนที่บ้านโทรมาเล่า(ญาติอยู่ตรงชุมชนวัดแค) มีคนเสื้อแดงขี่มอเตอร์ไซ คนราววๆ20-30คน ขับมาโจมตีคนวัดโสมนัส และชุมชนในตลาดนางเลิ้ง ถึงขั้นว่าเห็นคนวิ่งหนี แล้ววิ่งตามไปไล่ยิง แถมมีพยายามจะเผาบ้านคนในตลาดด้วย (มันเลวจริงๆๆ) ระหว่างที่โทรศัพท์คุยกับที่บ้านอยู่บนดาดฟ้า ทันใดนั้น ก็มีเสียงดังมาก เหมือนมีฟ้าผ่ามาแถวๆหัวเลยค่ะ มันดังมาก เสียงชัดมาก ญาติอีกคนนึงที่อยู่บนดาดฟ้าด้วย บอกให้ดิฉันหมอบลง และญาติคนนี้ก็ได้เห็นประกายไฟ มาจากตึกสูงแห่งนึง แล้วก็พยายามหันมาอธิบายให้ดิฉันฟัง อารมณ์นั้น ไม่รู้จะทำอะไรแล้วค่ะ เพราะเหมือนกับมันอยู่ใกล้ๆตัวมากๆ เสียงนั้น ดังมากกว่า20ครั้งค่ะ แล้วก็หยุด ผ่านไป 30นาที ก็มีเสียงแบบเดิมดังอีก แต่ครั้งนี้เสียงมันเบากว่าที่ดิฉันได้ยินครั้งแรก เหมือนมันไกลออกไป ดิฉันพยายามมองตรงรั่วบนดาดฟ้า มองลงไปเห็นตำรวจหมอบอยู่ข้างรถ แล้วก็มีตำรวจอีกกลุ่มนึง นั่งกะบะ ขับกลับไปทาง สน.นางเลิ้ง ดิฉันพยายามโทรหา 191 1197 หรือแม้แต่เบอร์ของสำนักข่าวอีก 2 สำนัก ก็ไม่มีคนรับสายค่ะ น่ากลัวมากๆ เมื่อเสียงดังกล่าวหยุดลง ทุกอย่างก็เงียบสนิท รออยู่ตั้งนาน รถพยาบาลก็ยังไม่มา ดิฉันเริ่มกลับเข้าบ้าน ลองส่ง sms หาสำนักข่าว 2 แห่ง ก็ไม่รู้เหมือนกันค่ะ ว่าได้ผลไหม ระหว่างนั้นก็เปิดทีวีไปด้วย มีการรายงานข่าว เรื่องนี้ ตอนแรกบอกว่ามีคนตาย 1 คน บาดเจ็บ 4 คน พอผ่านไปราวๆ10นาที ข่าวก็บอก ตาย2 บาดเจ็บ 14 ราย ดิฉัน ได้แต่สาปแช่งคนเสื้อแดง ที่ทำตัวเหมือนผู้ก่อการร้าย เหมือนโจรที่พยายามฆ่าคนและเผาบ้านคน
ผ่านไป อีก 30 นาที แน่ใจแล้วว่าทุกอย่างสงบลง ดิฉันจึงเริ่มวิ่งดูหน้าต่าง ไล่ปิดให้สนิท ปิดไฟในบ้าน ทำทุกอย่าง เพื่อไม่ให้เกิดเหตุร้ายกับบ้านตัวเอง และอธิฐาน ให้คืนนี้ผ่านไปอย่างสงบ กว่าจะเช้านอนก็ราว ตี 2 ได้ ค่ะ ตอนนั้น เห็นแล้วว่าตำรวจช่วยอะไรไม่ได้เลย ทั้งๆที่อยู่ใกล้ สถานีตำรวจแท้ๆ แล้วคิดว่า อยากให้ทหารเข้ามาในพื้นที่นี้ ถ้าทหารเข้ามาตั้งแต่ช่วงเย็น คนที่ชุมชนอาจปลอดภัยกว่านี้
14 เมษายน 2552
เช้า มาได้เห็นข่าว ว่าตรงแยกบ้านทหารได้มาตั้ง กำลังอยู่ตรงแยกนครสวรรค์ ตอนแรกก็คิดว่า ต่อไปคงรุนแรงกว่านี้ แต่โชคดีที่ เสื้อแดงยอมสลายการชุมนุมอย่างสงบ ค่ำคืนของฝันร้ายก็ผ่านพ้นไป
จาก ที่ดูข่าว รู้สึกจะมีการเก็บกู้วัตถุระเบิดแถวๆวัดโสมนัส เลยทำให้รู้ว่า คนเสื้อแดงเมื่อคืน ได้ปาระเบิดใส่ชุมชนวัดโสมนัส แล้วจึงเปิดฉากยิง
ความรู้สึกของผู้เขียน
จาก เรื่องข้างต้น ดิฉันคิดว่า กลุ่มคนที่เรียกตัวเองว่า ม็อบเพื่อเรียกร้องประชาธิปไตย จำเป็นด้วยหรือ ที่ต้องเผาบ้านเผาเมือง นี้หรือวิธีต่อสู้อย่างสงบ
การที่เข้ามาขโมยข้าวของ ของชาวบ้าน นี้เค้าเรียกว่าม็อบหรอ ไม่ใช่โจรหรอ
การที่เอาถังแก๊ส ล้อรถ ไปวางไว้ใกล้ๆรถเมลล์ที่ติดตั้งแก๊สNGV แล้วราดด้วยน้ำมัน นั้นหรือคือวิธีแห่งการต่อสู้เพื่อประชาธิปไตยอันแท้จริง
การ ที่ถูกประชาชนที่ไม่เห็นด้วยขัดขวาง แล้วตามมาฆ่าล้างบางตอนค่ำคืน ตลอดจนพยายามวางเพลิงเผาบ้านคน แหล่งชุมชน นี่หรือคือคนที่พยายามเรียกร้องประชาธิปไตย แน่ใจหรอ ไม่ใช่ว่าพวกคุณคือโจรก่อการร้ายหรอ
การที่พกปืน กับระเบิด ใช่วิสัยของคนรักสงบหรอ
ตอน นี้ ต่อให้แก่นนำเสื้อแดง หรือคนเสื้อแดง ออกมาพูดให้ข่าวว่า พวกตัวเองไม่ได้ทำ หรือบอกว่ามือที่สามสร้างสถานการณ์ คุณแน่ใจในคำพูดคุณหรอ คนกรุงเทพฯ ที่เจอแบบคนนางเลิ้งเจอ ก็คงรู้ซึ่ง ถึงสิ่งที่พวกเค้าทำหมดแล้ว และคงไม่มีใครเชื่อ ในสิ่งที่พวกเค้าพยายามโกหก ต่อสิ่งที่ประจักษ์อยู่ตรงหน้าของพวกเราอีกต่อไป และพวกคุณไม่สามารถปัดความรับผิดชอบในการกระทำของพวกคุณไปได้
ชุมชนแถวเพชรบุรี แยกอุรุพงษ์ แถวแฟลตดินแดง ก็คงเจอไม่น้อยไปกว่าพวกเราชุมชนคนนางเลิ้ง
ชุมชนไหนที่ยังรักใน กลุ่มคนพวกนี้ ขอให้ได้เจอ เหมือนที่คนนางเลิ้งเจอ จากฝีมือของคนเสื้อแดง ที่พวกคุณพยายามหลับหูหลับตารักนักรักหนา ด้วยเถิด สาธุ
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Next month it will be 17 years since the soldiers used real bullets as the Bangkok working class and fast growing middle class took to the streets to demand that a prime minister had to be elected against the wishes of corrupt politicians, who wanted ex-army commander Suchinda in the job.
Unlike recent events many were killed or disappeared. Many were jailed and some tortured. The most memorable picture was of the protest leader on the ground being covered over by protesters in attempt to stop the soldiers shooting or arresting him. Where was the sacrifice from the red shirts? It’s difficult to take them seriously when they run so fast.
Now who was that man under his supporters bodies? Was it Thaksin? No Thaksin stayed safely out of it. It was Chamlong Srimuang. You know that man in the PAD who Giles Ungpakorn calls an extreme right-wing anti-democrat. Now Chamlong has many strange ideas on numerous subjects that Thais have shown they are not prepared to follow but when it comes to fighting for democracy I suspect I’m not the only one who would choose Chamlong over Thaksin.
I wonder how many of those politicians who supported Suchinda later joined or their provincial political dynasties joined Thaksin’s Thai Rak Thai. Wasn’t Samak one of Suchinda’s biggest supporters?
Thaksin, the man who was rich enough to buy a country, buy a Premier League football club and tried to buy a revolution. It’s a shame there are no journalists to tell the world what happened because the man isn’t finished yet. Maybe Giles and his media friends can convince us that Thaksin actually represents a progressive ideology. Maybe like when Stalin tried to convince the world that Hitler was OK after the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed.
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Nick,
Great report!
A great public service, so thank you.
Having said that… I seem to find the “information” on bullets to be misleading. If you have evidence and pictures of bullet-holes, please share them. Like Portman above, i believe you cannot use real bullets without leaving some sort of trail…. and that would have been impossible to cleanup given that bullets may travel for a kilometer, will ricochet or bounce of buildings, and maybe even kill an innocent bystander or two.
Finally, regarding the Din Daeng bustup, I found this video on youtube taken by a guy who lives at the flats there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1Ph-Fn_IFs
If you watch, you will notice that the army was just maintaining their position when they got hit by Molotov Cocktails and rammed by a taxi. Gunshots were only fired AFTER the taxi rammed through a line of soldiers, presumably shooting the taxi after. I have no idea if that taxi driver died, but I could make that assumption. However, his (Taxi Driver) behavior was totally irrational, and if I were a soldier, I’d have no choice at that point but shoot him too…
What I find surprising is that the Thai Army didn’t seem interested in ‘securing the high ground’ such as the top of buildings, highways, and pedestrian crossings… as this would’ve been a simple way to look at and understand red shirt movements, makes them seem not so professional.
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If only the red shirts would separate themselves from Thaksin Shinawatra then they would have much more legitimacy. But as long as they carry his banner, then the rest of Thailand will always doubt their intent. Since we have half the rubix cube going, start a green shirt movement and let Thaksin have the reds! Better yet, forgive, reconcile, reach out, discuss and start rebuilding. I am getting distressed at the limitations of items of clothing I can wear from my wardrobe!
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Les Abbey #57
Giles Ungkaporn also refers to Thaksin as a capitalist and a royalist in “A Coup for the Rich” i.e. a class enemy of committed Marxists, even highly privileged ones from distinguished families like Giles. It is clear that he is cynically promoting Thaksin, whom he really views as a fascist, so that he can somehow ride on his coat tails until the revolution happens. Then in his imagination a politburo might purge Thaksin, the royal family, the privy council and other class enemies, leaving the Marxists in charge of smoke and rubble.
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Mungo Gubbins #55
Yes, the wad and hot gas of a blank cartridge can certainly inflict burns and other injuries at close range and even more so, if there is a foreign body in the barrel. I remember an unpleasant incident from my youth when some cadets of my acquaintance had to reimburse a farmer for killing a number of sheep by firing pencils into their heads at close range using blank rifle cartridges, while on manoeuvers. Perhaps it was the wad that passed over Nick’s head, or even a well sharpened HB.
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Great reporting, BUT OBVIOUSLY, ONE SIDED, VERY BIASED AND PRO-RED SHIRT, Nick.
Portman’s comments all have points.
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Well done…. I love this article.
It is really useful for my report about the red-shirt protesters.
Thank you very much for the information and photos
keep up the good work….
Here I would say that no matter how media blocks the truth
the truth is that, truth is in your eyes – no matter the media try to hide it.
So if the next reader came and disagree with you… remember
you write it with your own experience and facts, why worry?
the truth is in your eyes and the mirror can reflect it!!!!!
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Firstly, the headline is a disgrace. I also would like to echo earlier criticisms about the frequency of statements of the nature of “I was told that …” Journalism has always been a fishy business, but I doubt even the subs at the Murdoch metros would allow those through without a fair amount of squealing about the instant unbelievability that unattributed statements would lend to the the story. I realize Nick is a blogster, but Andrew and Nicholas are academics who get peer reviewed, and it would be nice if they could exert a similar level of quality control over the writers whom they feature and the headlines they write. Nick may feel that the Reds are right, but you are university teachers at ANU, and I don’t think you should be sounding like the flipside of David Penberthy.
I am interested in several things that have come out of the above article. Firstly, I was surprised to see that the Thailand (SEA?) rep for the BBC would have lent his personal equipment to a partisan blogger. Journos in my experience are fairly clubby but very rarely to that extent. Jonathan Head is a very public face for a global media organization that is passionate about its “objectivity”. Nick on the other hand is an emotional sort of fellow, published on social issues to a limited extent, and boldly of the “advocacy” tradition. Head is tainted, obviously not because of this action alone, but it contributes to the undermining of his reputation that has started to gain momentum through his selectively hostile interviewing manner and rash statements about aimed shots.
Furthermore, I was not surprised to read from Nick that “most” Thai police he met were so derelict in their duty that they would openly announce to a sympathetic foreigner that they were abandoning their sworn duty to protect the State and joining the insurrectionists at the end of their shift. Wonderful news for all of us — Thai and foreigners– that live here with families, especially in light of the rozzers’ pathetic performance in Hua Hin and at ringside of the savage display at parliament. Nick has made his bias clear and therefore I I understand his motives for protecting their identity, but it doesn’t stop me from disliking his provocativeness (how would he feel if German police made similar statements at a time when when the Chancellor was in danger of being beaten to death and a gas tanker was primed to explode around the corner from his house?)
A lot of people above have cheered Nick on; wonderful journalism and so on. Pshaw. He was there with a camera and he wrote down pretty much everything he saw through his (to his credit) clearly stated biases. It’s an infuriating piece of writing which makes me want to shake some sense into his thick blinkered head, but that’s what rough-cut reportage is supposed to achieve — an unvarnished emotional reaction. However, please take a deep breath before recommending this for a Walkley.
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Portman and LesAbbey speculate on Ji’s position on Thaksin. Why? Just read a bit of Ji’s blog and he tells you what he is doing very clearly.
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Dickie wants evidence of live, real, metal-jacketed bullets being used. In the parliamentary debate reported today Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban is reported to have “sidestepped the allegation that live bullets were used.” However, he did say that the “majority of the bullets soldiers used were blank”. The reporter claimed that this was “inconclusive”. Really? Seems conclusive to me.
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Portman :- You make a good point but it’s flawed. BBC had a video on their website showing quite clearly a Thai soldier loading his magazine and then his weapon with live rounds. You can also find many pictures of spent ammunition around. Spent ammunition is easy to identify if you are knowledgeable.
This a JPG of M16 ammunition.
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/moxiepix/b1_1221.jpg
#1 is the round loaded in the BBC video and the spent round shell I have seen in pictures and videos. It’s the M193 combat ball round. It’s a live round.
#2 and #6 were not used as I have not seen any reports of tracer fire.
#3 is a dummy to use for training, it does nothing and is easy to identify.
#4 is the M200 Blank that is so talked about. I have yet to see any picture of this cartridge in any report/video from Thailand. It’s very distinct from the others.
#5 this is a Ball round that is not recommended in the M16a1/2 the Thai military is using and should not be used on targets in that weapon less than 90 meters in distance because of the rifling in the barrel will not stabilize the projectile.
#7 is Short-Range Training Ammunition (SRTA). it is very distinct, this is the training round that Portman talks about. I have not seen a spent SATA cartridge in any video or picture either.
BTW ;- none of the M16 ammunition has a wad as is common in low velocity shells like shotguns. As the M16 has a muzzle velocity over 3500F/S anything in the muzzle would disintegrate in only a few feet if the rifle didn’t explode first. During the Vietnam war etc, many M16′s exploded because of drops of water or dirt in the barrel.
It’s easy to identify any round, just look on the end.
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I agree with Ecrit above. Turn this blog into an academic journal. Make the BBC’s Head resign for offering to lend a camera to another journalist. Eliminate advocacy journalism so that we may read the facts alone. At least that way we might know about the heinous events in Hua Hin. And don’t ever declare exactly what you are doing at the beginning of an article. That just confuses us.
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Great..i must express my admiration for your presentation.
thank you.
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HOW CAN THE GOVERNMENT ATTACK THE WEAPONLESS PROTESTERS BY FORCE WHO HAVE THEIR OWN FREEDOM TO EXPRESS A POLITICAL VIEW?
Apparently, a downtown battle field sparked yesterday as the puppet government used the military troop by way of declaring the state of emergency over the area of Bangkok Metropolitan and its vicinities to specifically dissolve by force the Red-shirt protesters. Red-shirt protesters politically demand the puppet prime minister and government-entangling privy councilor head to resign.
In pictures, the troop brutally shot the Red-shirt protesters, who defended their barracks for political rally, to dead and got severe injuries, while the latter retaliated with no weapons. Not only the ordinary citizen, but also a few monks and a three-year old child were also murdered by firing bullets. Most corpses were secretly hidden, taken away and destroyed by the troop to avert any physical evidence on their committing a massacre. Up to now, nearly one hundred people were registered dead and injured, being drastically and contradictorily contrast to the government report, as saying only two persons were dead.
Some pictures exhibited the Red-shirt women knelled themselves down with flowers in front of the soldiers while begging for their lives. Some pictures delineated the soldiers’ shameful actions drawing on by dragging and yanking the hair of an unarmed woman protester.
The government also made image-smearing stories, lies and deceptions by hiring people to wear the red shirts and ordered them to create chaos and destroy public properties during the evening time in order to generate widespread civil disobedience, as if the Red-shirt protesters had done by themselves.
http://www.prachataiwebboard.com/webboard/wbtopic2.php?id=794208
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Marty #67
I stand corrected. Blank M16 rounds have a crimped end but no wad, unlike the sheep killing blank rifle rounds I fired in my youth (I wasn’t one of the sheep killing squad). In fact, when firing blanks purely for noise purposes, the M16 is normally fitted with a blank firing attachment which effectively blocks the barrel so that enough gas comes back to eject the empty cartridge and load the next one into the chamber. The US military uses large colored attachments in training to make it obvious that blanks are being fired but it is possible to produce a much smaller attachment that would be difficult to see. Otherwise blanks can definitely propel things out of the barrel. Higher powered blanks are used to fire grenades and baton rounds from an M16.
The short range target ammunition (SRTA) in the link you provided has a blue plastic tip but the cost in the US is nearly three times as much as the copper clad ball service ammunition. So I doubt very much that the Thai army imports it. It is much more likely that they have their own SRTA made to their specification by Thai Arms, a private company in Rachburi that manufacturers a range of low velocity “practice” ammunition. Another reason I doubt the Thai army uses it is because an M16 has to be fitted with a special bolt to fire it which means that the same rifle cannot be used to fire service ammunition without going back to the armourer. On the other hand Winchester manufactures an SRTA round with a copper or brass tip that uses the same bolt as service ammunition. See http://www.combatreform.com/indoorriflequal.htm . It is quite likely that the Thai army has a copy of this ammo made locally and it could look almost indistinguishable from service ammunition. Although not accurate beyond 25 metres, this is still lethal ammunition and I think it is what the army referred to as “look som” or practice ammuntion. I also still assume they used a lot of blank cartridges, as there would certainly be lot of injuries and damage caused, if all ammo used was either SRTA or service ammo.
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Red Shirts may have lost the battle but not the war. Their top leaders are detained but new ones are ready to lead. This is because the issues are injustice, double standards, and oppression of the rural poor which continue to exist under this Abhisit govt. Under the current worsening economic situation, more and more people are becoming red shirts without even wearing them. Just wait, as soon as the State of Emergency is lifted in Bangkok, stronger opposition against Abhisit govt will start and spread quickly. Around me, there are many who are fed up listening to govt’s broadcast propaganda while at the same time they cannot listen to or watch their favorite commnity radio stations or Dstation.
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Hi Nick,
Your report has given me a greater understanding of what was happening that day. The concerning issue has got to be the way most Thai people get their news. And going further, their understand of their politics and history.
Thanks again for the great effort.
Simon Ruddle
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Marty and Portman: I have found your comments on the weaponry fascinating. But as a non-specialist, what is the bottom line regarding the statement about firing blanks during the demos?
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Just after I sent the above question to Marty and Portman I went to the Nation. Anupong has spoken on live rounds: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/24/national/national_30101183.php
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Ecrit wrote:
I realize Nick is a blogster, but Andrew and Nicholas are academics who get peer reviewed. . .
Everything a “blogster” writes is subject to critique by other bloggers and readers. Case in point: some 75 people from all over the world and many walks of life have already peer-reviewed Nick’s work. More will surely follow. How common is it for an academic to have any article so closely read and widely commented upon?
Also, a good peer review focuses on specific points raised in an article. Personal attacks are helpful neither to editors nor contributors. Please be advised that this style of peer review, though all-too-common in academia, is generally not well received in the blogosphere.
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Ralph Kramden – “what is the bottom line regarding the statement about firing blanks during the demos?”
Lets put it in perspective not knowing the actual orders given or enforced.
You are a young private in the Thai army, most likely a conscript from a poor rural family. You are turfed into a street protest that you have no idea what the outcome may be but you know that the APC’s were commandeered the afternoon before and that in previous protests the police were fired on by the then PAD guards. Do you???
a) load blanks hoping you can scare the possibly rampaging mob who may be shooting at you and if they get you they may well take you apart.
OR
b) Load live rounds knowing that if the situation goes south you will not have time to change magazines to live rounds to protect yourself.
We would all take option “b” and so did the majority of the military in Bangkok. This is born out with the total lack of wasted blank cartridges.
WEe know from videos and pictures that the military did not fire exclusively into the air but directly at things.
Things are just starting to emerge now and as soon as the SOE is lifted you will most likely see more information on this come out as more people feel confident to make statements.
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Ralph Kramden
As I said things will come out in the wash. This video from Japanese news has at station 2:04 a soldier shooting his sidearm directly at the protesters. So does that mean that it was only the reds that had handguns, it appears not it also may raise doubt about who actually killed the 2 anti-protest protesters if the military was indiscriminately firing. Remember Mark said no one was killed from a military M16 round. LOL
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Pinocchio, Snow White, and Superman are out for a stroll in town one day.
As they walked, they come across a sign:
“Beauty contest for the most beautiful woman in the world.”
“I am entering!” said Snow White.
After half an hour she comes out and they ask her, “Well, how’d ya do?”
“First Place!,” said Snow White.
They continue walking and they see a sign:
“Contest for the strongest man in the world.”
“I’m entering,” says Superman.
After half an hour, he returns and they ask him, “How did you
make out?”
“First Place,” answers Superman. “Did you ever doubt?”
They continue walking when they see a sign:
“Contest! Who is the greatest liar in the world?”
Pinocchio enters.
After half an hour he returns with tears in his eyes.
“What happened?” they asked.
“Who the hell is Thaksin?” asked Pinocchio
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The major shortcoming of democracy arises when it’s applied by low-quality voters, and that’s the case in Thailand. You would not understand as it never happened in such developed countries as Australia. Most of the poor in rural areas (not applied to southern part as they’re more info alert) do not really care how badly Thaksin corrupted the country; they just worship the one who throw small money to them. It becomes a big threat to Thailand’s future as Thaksin abused governmental budget to buy their vote. He’s obviously notorious for huge corruption, cronyism, and interest-conflicted deals.
The most ridiculous thing is that he has been talking about democracy, despite the fact that he bought all independent agencies like Election Committee, Bureau of Corruption Investigation, and even Senators. Among very few, Supreme Court remains untouchable, and found him guilty of many corruption cases. That’s why he always says the court is unfair.
Western developed countries like US, GB, and Japan wouldn’t tolerate such a corrupted politician for SURE, but seems you easily tolerate if he does the same thing in our country.
I recommend that you study hard and should truly know about another country with different culture before criticizing them.
PS. For the one who still believe Thaksin does not pay the redshirts for protesting and committing violence during ASEAN summit, see this
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That was a good one land#78. However, on #79 I have strong reservations on blaming the manipulated, poor Thai voters. For me, it is the wealthy manipulators that must be made accountable for the state that Thai Democracy is in. Ofcourse, a positive from all this is that the rural voters will demand more from their politicians and governments and present/future Thai governments must/will have to be responsive to their needs/plights. Thinking optimistically, this can be a win-win scenario – less corruption (a major Achilles heel) and a more broad-based democracy.
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I appreciate Nick’s courage in going out and photographing the events of the period – and previously when PAD were in Govt. house. I applaud too his wisdom in heading home when things really got out of hand.
What I do not appreciate is that Nick is falling into this simplistic trap of red vs. yellow – that it is rural poor vs urban elite. As we know it is much more complex than that and I truly believe that the answers to Thailand’s current situation lies in our ability to amicably discuss differences of opinion without having to say what “colour” you are.
I think he should have stated in his opening paragraph that he is a red shirt sympathiser and not have waited until comments were made regarding the bias of the report. Even better if a more balanced approach were made to the reporting – but for that I cut him some slack as he stated he hadn’t had a lot of sleep at the time of writing…
Apart from that I find the word “thugs” applied to PAD, but not to Red Shirts and, whilst understandable from a partisan POV doesn’t contribute to improving the situation, rather it is more name-calling that simply aggravates the situation.
From a more personal viewpoint we who live here and have family here all have stake in what is unfolding in Thai society, and I wish less people would fall into the red-yellow-blue-green or whatever colour trap (particularly you Nick as someone with the talent to help others to undertand).
It is a trap with no winner and no way forward. The more of us that reject the idea that you are “with us or against us and there is nothing in between”, the better the situation will be.
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Ecrit # 46:
“would have lent his personal equipment to a partisan blogger” >
First, in fact, Nick is not a blogger but an accredited photo journalist. So, being willing to lend him equipment would seem to be well within the confines of assistence given to a colleague. Second, Nick has been working in areas of Thai society that are like terra incognita to most foreign and Thai journalists (and thus closed to most Thais themselves as well as to foreigners). That they happen not to correspond to the cliche of Thailand as the “Land of Smiles” should make his work even more welcome. Second, Nick is not “partisan,” but “biased.” These concepts are worlds apart. Third, would you prefer not having the data presented by him, rather relying on what Bangkok Post and The Nation (and the Thai-language papers, in case you can read Thai) have to offer? These days, it not an achievement to close one’s mind and parrot the official line. It is much more difficult to get exposure to alternative views. Fourth, seeing his report as an “infuriating piece of writing which makes me want to shake some sense into his thick blinkered head” indicates that your perceptional, intellectual, and political complacency were in utter need to be shaken up a little. Thus, you should thank Nick that he has brought some real Thai life into your protected world.
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Marty, thanks. I guess I was thinking of Kasit’s comment at the Asia Society: he says only blanks were used. Now Anupong says that live rounds were used. So I guess we can now agree that live rounds were used and Kasit is either uniformed or a liar.
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The major shortcoming of democracy arises when it’s applied by low-quality voters, and that’s the case in Thailand. You would not understand as it never happened in such developed countries as Australia.
Assuming you’re right about the first sentence (and it’s questionable that you are), you are dead wrong with the second. Ever heard of Tammany Hall, Boss Tweed, Richard J. Daley, Tanaka Kakuei, John MacDonald of the “Pacific Scandal” or Maurice Duplessis (I could go on)? All democracies, including the ones we consider “successful” today experience growing pains. None of the successful democracies got through these phases by military coups or reducing the amount of democracy (as PAD now advocates). There’s no easy answer to this – success only comes through the patient, tireless work of reformers who work within the bounds of the democratic process – and their work often takes generations before it bears any fruit.
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Ralph Kramden – Kasit’s is a disgrace to Thailand. He is constantly putting his mouth in motion before he puts his brain in gear. Possibly you could say he is uninformed and a liar. There is a lot of spin going on and eventually the whirlwind will slow and the truth will come out.
Re: Nick – “partisan”
Everyone in the news field gets contacts because you click with certain people. Nick just happened to click with some of the reds during their forming. It’s through these contacts, and often friendships, that you get close to what’s going on and often get inside information. That’s good journalistic practice.
Like myself, Nick sympathizes with the rural poor and their plight most of that is from the family ties we have in the North and Northeast and our own upbringing. Just because someone supports the rural poor they are not necessarily doing it blindly or supporters of Thaksin. If you know Nick, or his work, you already know Thaksin is not one of his hero. I’ve known Nick for years and we often swap information. Partisan is not a term that applies to him.
Often I hear the comments like LAND’s and I have to wonder if he has ever spent even one day working on a rice farm or spent a night talking to a group of rice farmers. I would hazard a guess he has not or he would realize that the brightest people in the country are not educated, but they understand immeasurably what’s going on. Something some groups do not want you to know. If thailand ever wants to become a great nation instead of an emerging one they have to develop this people resource not just as labor but as a brain trust as well.
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Ralph#83, you bring up a good point.
Suppose the army used live rounds, but there was specific instructions from the Prime Minister’s Office not to use Live Rounds? Then I understand that the army would be culpable. If Eton educated Abhisit couldn’t remember to put out a memo or specific wording into an ‘Order’ to the military on how to handle the situation, he should never have called for a State of Emergency.
There will be 2 that should happen for the Democratic party to take responsibility (in my opinion):
1. The obvious one is that Abhisit must choose to step down, or dissolve parliament for new elections. I think to be consistent with his “Democratic credentials” as to how he came to power, he should just quit and let Parliament take another chance at picking a new leader. He should definitely put himself up for the job again, but that depends on point 2
2. Point out that in spite of his instructions, the military didn’t listen to him. He must then do a complete inquiry of the military, and push legislation to specifically weaken the political power of the military, even before pushing for amnesty. He should also fire Suthep as his 2nd in charge, and put on Chuan (a dinosaur, but also who is less confrontational in nature) and few different people into key positions…. one easy example: you’re telling me the Democrat party, with all these “educated” people who have studied abroad and what nots have not 1 decent person they can call into the foreign ministry? Someone that, not just foreign dignitaries, but also our beauracrats abroad can respect when they arrive…
He should also create a committee for “reconciliation” he should actually get the more moderate factions of the “red” and “yellow” sides to work together to see if there are some sorts of similarities they have in their vision for the country and start from there…. it wouldn’t hurt him to assign key members of that committee to parliamentarians.
anyways, all of the above is probably fantasy-land where people are actually mature and serious about solving their problem.
It is very apparent from people of all political stripes that they have simply all left their point of rationality to do anything to actually help anyone. In these situations, there are never any “winners”, the biggest losers are probably those who are intellectually dishonest just to “make a point” to others because they, more than anyone else, are responsible for dragging everyone down with their twisted logic.
The only logic that exists right now is how not to fall as a nation. These are dire economic times, and we are with a political struggle in which there is so many things at stake. There is still high confidence that things can be solved, and they should be able to be… but everyone needs to drop the zero sum game. It is proven now, without a doubt the coup of September 2006 was an incredible mistake. The military should never have gotten out of their barracks and no ‘shortcut’ should’ve been attempted to solve a political crisis. Not that the shortcut didn’t help… it did, in the short run; but as usual, Generals saw State Power, and they wanted to keep it…. they wore the ‘Ring to Rule them All’, but the ring ruled over them too….. and well, they’re Generals, they don’t know how to do things, they are just used to saying it with a “yes sir” reply.
But you know, ‘Thaksin’ is not the answer. Whatever you may say about his being “popularly elected” 3-4 times whatever, he too plays a large role in this crisis. Any attempt to paint Thaksin as Thailand’s savior or call to put him (or his family members… I was actually fine with Samak… I even kinda liked the guy… big mistake for the PAD, court, etc., to remove him) on a pedestal or say that he has done know wrong, is intellectually honest.
Anyways, back to Ralph #83 that I lost track of while I was typing. I really wonder if there will be some sniping (figuratively) between the military and the PM’s Office on how things unfolded on the Security side of things.
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Land (#79):
For the one who still believe Thaksin does not pay the redshirts for protesting and committing violence during ASEAN summit, see this
I think that video does not show what it reports to show. Most likely it is an example of completely misleading propaganda. Here’s a translation of the video, plus link to BP’s must-read observation:
http://www.jotasean.com/2009/04/thaksin-hawking-red-shirts-for-500-baht.html
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We then went behind Metropolitan Police headquarters. There was a small crowd of extremely angry Red Shirts. They attacked every vehicle of the Thai media, angry by the not exactly unbiased reporting. Unfortunately, what many of them do not understand, is that Thai journalists are as divided over the political situation as the general Thai population, and many Thai journalists do not agree with the PAD or government policy. The result of these attacks was that most Thai journalists did not dare anymore to go close to the Red Shirts, and remained with the Army, even as Red Shirt leaders asked the protesters not to attack them. Part of the problem of course is that also many speeches on the stage condemned Thai media for being too partial towards the PAD. This is not too untrue, but unfortunately it results in attacks against the media. Right now only foreign journalists can safely work with Red Shirts. This is a huge problem for the future. Very few foreign journalists are fluent enough in Thai to directly speak in Thai, and too few Red Shirts speak English well enough. Also, Red Shirts expect too much from the foreign media. The media business is a business, and a story is only hot while it is big enough. When Thai journalists cannot work with Red Shirts, there is very little chance that their views will be heard in the traditional media outlets. It is more than important though that Red Shirts have a voice in the media.
What you wrote above has to get into the head of every Thais, red or yellow or whatever colors they are. Stop looking at “Media” as a single entity, and blame them all…
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Ecrit,
I offered to lend my personal camera – not the BBC’s – to Nick when he told me his had broken on the morning of Monday 13th. He is one of many colleagues I have got to know by working alongside them while covering events in Thailand over the past year. It is perfectly normal practice for journalists to help each other out with loans of equipment if their fails. I have even known BBC colleagues lend gear to people working for major rivals if they’ve been unlucky enough to have a crucial piece of gear fail during a breaking story.
Nick’s views and approach to his journalism are his own, and had no bearing on my decision to make the offer. As a hard-working freelance I was well aware of what the loss of his camera would mean to Nick on that day. I do not see how you can find fault with that decision.
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And Ecrit… “selectively hostile interviewing” – what on earth do you mean?
“Aimed shots” – please elaborate.
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This is complete biased reported disguised as ” FACT”.
Left out was when the Red Shirts intended to gas the community from the tanks, then the residents came out to fend for themselves.
How can you give credit to such a woman as ” Muad Jiap “.
At the Interior Ministry, you said Secretary Nibhond’s car drove into a taxi. Complete lie. Latest video clip from a foreign media showed THAT taxi backed up to block the Mercedes.
The Red rioters dragged Nibhond and his driver to club them.
It was not bringing to hospital.
Complete lie.
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Sorry to go off topic… It’s nearly 8 P.M. BKK time and it seems only Xinhua http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-04/25/content_11256142.htm are reporting on UDD demonstration at Sanam Luang. Surely, it’s incredibly hot out here but still..
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Matichon online mentions this post and has 4 of the photos – see here. They call you “New Mandala 2009″
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I already commented on this video somewhere on this site, so I’ll confine myself to the following issue.
Jotman #87
You mis-translated the crucial sentence, the one you emphasized with bold fonts. (Unfortunately, even BP repeats the mistake on his post.)
Thai text:
แต่ถ้าพี่น้องบอกว่า ทักษิณมาทำเองเลย พร้อมครับ
จะขอเหนื่อยตอนอายุ 60 นี่อีกครั้งหนึ่ง
ไม่ต้องไปเข้าแถวรอรับ 500 บาท
Now, you translated the 3rd line as : And you don’t need to go to queue up for 500 baht.
The mistake (and it’s important in the context of the ‘controversy’) is it should be “I” not “you”. (The correct translation would be: “And I don’t need to queqe up to receive 500 Bht.”)
In other words, Thaksin was saying :
I will work for you for free: I don’t need to be paid even the 500 Bht (which I’d be entitled to under Abhisit scheme).
It is “I” because Thaksin was refering to himself being 60 years old (this July), but still willing to work if called for. If it were “you”, that sentence would not make sense.
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Ecrit – Take 64
Little to add to a fine comment from a journalist who knows only that the truth is all we are charged to deliver. I can live with bias if it is declared and does not ruin the report as this oversight does. The story continues and as Mr Royle says, lets away with the colours and not let Thaksin’s Washington spin doctors turn your heads. The guy is a loony tune, lost in his desperate dream that he had become someone, without having to pay the piper for a while – real power no less – and no need to bribe his way into the corridors of power around Asia. This cornered rat is a dangerous rat replete with a disease that knows no cure bar the bullet. Let the powers that be guide the opposition to a kinder fate than the boot of the army or worse. Complex as the issues may be, they all just want a better life and it can be delivered. Just dig a little deeper. AIG anyone…GM?
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Nick, what a great read. Thanks. Blows me away to find someone in Thailand willing to say some of these things.
Once again Thailand has gone to the State vs The People, the sad thing is that some of the leaders of the Democratic Movements of the past seem to have forgotten what they were fighting for and they have certainly forgotten October 1973 and 1976 and May 1992.
Is the difference this time that the protesters this time are mainly from the poorer regions of Thailand and not from the middle classes? … I hope not!
Sorry I have so much to say but like you need to organise my thoughts.
Thanks once again and if you get the chance please let the Redshirts know that they have much support here in the UK and we are trying to lead the fight to get the foreign media and governments to recognise that they were not completely to blame for their actions at Songkran, they had a great deal of provocation directly from the government.
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Van Tasker: Glad you are on board. There’s got to be a way to make these NM types understand the stuff they’ve been writing about for years now. By the way, how’s it going up there in the mountains of Oregon? Do you make you own bullets? How can I get some?
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AjarnSomsak#95, having had another look, I can agree with your literal interpretation – but mainly because I understand the speech was scripted and fed to PMThaksin via earphones.
However, that is strictly based on the content of the ‘text’.
The ‘Freudian-slip theory’ may still stand if PMThaksin’s delivery (body language, pauses and gaps in speech, tone of voice) is also studied in detail – and we’ll probably need a Thai (spoken) language specialist and a psychologist to help assess the video. I sense that there are clear gaps between the words being read to him and PMThaksin’s own interpretations and actual deliveries.
So the script is – as you said:
“I will work for you for free: I don’t need to be paid even the 500 Bht”
But the actual delivery, on the whole, becomes as hundred of thousands of fellow Thais on You-tube understood:
“(You) don’t have to queue up for 500 baht”
An admission of vote-buying and/or paid crowds. And this should not be suprising. I do not doubt that many of the poor Red crowds are sincere supporters of PMThaksin. But, as the Thai saying goes, their lives are characterized by the daily-cycle of “find in the morning, eat in the evening”. They cannot attend the rallies without transportation, food, drinks etc. subsidies…
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#Marty 86
“I have to wonder if he has ever spent even one day working on a rice farm or spent a night talking to a group of rice farmers”
I can’t speak for Land but I am quite happy to confess to never having visited a rice farm, in fact I’ve never been to Isan, and my only experiences of Northern Thailand are as a back-packer a decade ago. I have also never visited Yala where my wife and her siblings grew up in poverty. I would very much like to, my wife and in-laws would like to go back to pay respects to their deceased father, but frankly, it’s a dangerous place and has been so since tensions escalated at the time of the incidents at Tak Bai and Krue Se in 2004.
I have also, thank god, never had a family member disappear without trace where the authorities subsequently make no effort to investigate. I have never been tortured. I have smoked marijuana on occasion (I’m not proud of it) but thankfully masked men haven’t visited my home to blast my brains over all over the room in front of my wife and young child. But these things did happen to real people far, far too often during the Thai Rak Thai years. I know this isn’t news too you, and you have expressed your misgivings, but when you stand shoulder to shoulder with the rice farmers who hold icons of Thaksin Shinawatra (noticeably absent from Mr Nostitz’s images) are you truly confident that you are fighting for the democratic rights of the poor, rather than acting as an apologist for a monster?
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Come on Sidh, if you have watched the clip, it takes a lot of invention to believe your interpretation. BTW, the halts are for the delay in the crowd responses in the version I saw. That’s also clear in the clip where the audience in Bkk is also shown. This is just a beat up for the true PADists.
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Ralph#101, apparently not too much for the 600,000+ Thais who clicked into youtube to watch. Look, I was quite convinced the first time that I saw it until AjarnSomsak’s comments got me to have a closer look – which then gave me second thoughts as expressed in #99. Look, at the end of the day, it’s only two Thai’s interpretation of the VDO clip stated in Thai, aimed at a Thai crowd – there are certainly many more possible interpretations. At the very least I don’t think it will be good enough for lawyers to prosecute!
I can take this further and interpret that the following sentence – right after the 500 baht statement, the pause, the turn of the head, lifting of the left arm, that facial expression etc. – was meant to cover up for the apparent slip ‘did that went out right?’ which I translate as:
“Brothers and sisters that have received benefits from the Democracy that can be eaten during ThaiRakThai years”
Look, I already said that I agree with AjarnSomsak on what the actual message of the ‘script’ intended. This comes down to ‘abysmal acting’ on PMThaksin’s part that the VDO turned out to be such a classic for hundreds of thousands of Thais.
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Marty #86
“Often I hear the comments like LAND’s and I have to wonder if he has ever spent even one day working on a rice farm or spent a night talking to a group of rice farmers. I would hazard a guess he has not or he would realize that the brightest people in the country are not educated, but they understand immeasurably what’s going on. Something some groups do not want you to know. If thailand ever wants to become a great nation instead of an emerging one they have to develop this people resource not just as labor but as a brain trust as well.”
Aside from the romantic schmaltz of those who feel they know better just because they have talked to villagers, married poor village girls or perhaps even dared to violate the Working of Aliens Act by working on a rice farm themselves, I agree that education is the key to Thailand’s social and economic development. This is not something that Thaksin or other elitists from his political parties or the red shirts have shown any interest in because they know that better education would eventually mean less votes for corrupt, self serving politicians, as much as it would mean less unquestioning acceptance for other elites. Hopefully, it is something that will emerge from the red shirt movement, if they can ever cut loose from Dr Evil’s apron strings.
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Sidh S #102
Amazing. As you pointed out, over 606,000 people have viewed the Thai only version without English subtitles which has been disabled for comments, perhaps because it might overload the system. The English subtitle version unfortunately cut off Thaksin’s appeal to those who had enjoyed those delicious edible benefits from democracy during the years of the Thaksin regime immediately following the comment about not having to join the queue to received 500 baht. However, I agree with you that it is quite significant and mitigates rather against Acharn Somsak’s interpretation. Acharn Somsak’s intricate parsing of Thaksin’s literary accomplishment is one possible interpretation but by no means the only one or necessarily even the correct one. It requires quite a bit of thought and the ability to blank out Thaksin’s body language and obvious annoyance at whoever is providing the commentary into his ear piece to arrive at Acharn Somsak’s conclusion. I agree with you that most of the 606,000 will probably not have given Thaksin the benefit of the doubt, even if the Acharn is right. This along with Thaksin’s “shrillness” and poor performance in his BBC and CNN interviews cannot have helped his case much but it is not over until he either wins or his money runs out.
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I have smoked marijuana on occasion (I’m not proud of it) but thankfully masked men haven’t visited my home to blast my brains over all over the room in front of my wife and young child. But these things did happen to real people far, far too often during the Thai Rak Thai years. I know this isn’t news too you, and you have expressed your misgivings, but when you stand shoulder to shoulder with the rice farmers who hold icons of Thaksin Shinawatra (noticeably absent from Mr Nostitz’s images) are you truly confident that you are fighting for the democratic rights of the poor, rather than acting as an apologist for a monster?
The most astonishing (and disturbing) thing I find about the drug war is not that Thaksin managed to pull it off and get away with it, but that it was one of his single most popular policies, not just upcountry but also in Bangkok, where much of his present opposition is based. If you check the more detailed opinion polls taken just before the 2005 election, it definitely ranked among the top 3 most popular policies (and many were aware that not everyone who was killed was necessarily a drug dealer). This shows to me that the problems you talk about are more than just about Thaksin. This attitude can only come about by a decades-long failure of Thai legal/political institutions to protect the people, build up their trust and cultivate a “rule of law” culture. I’m not trying to absolve Thaksin of responsibility for the drug war. But the problems that made such a horrendous crime possible run much deeper than Thaksin.
BTW, it’s quite ironic accuse Nick of ignoring Thaksin’s crimes during the war on drugs. He is probably more knowledgeable about the details of the drug war on the ground than any other journalist in town. It’s just not part of the story he set out to tell in this instance – his post was already quite long, and my impression was he wanted to limit it by discussing nothing more than what he actually saw during the Red Uprising.
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Concerning that video:
Of course, the fact that that video went viral — with some 600,000+ views — does not prove anything one way or another about the intention of the speaker.
First, lots of people share a certain view of Thaksin, and alleged nature of his comments certainly feeds into their preconceptions.
Second, the Thaksin video was presented in such a way as to encourage viewers to interpret Thaksin’s comments in a certain way.
When people are given information prior to viewing the video (before viewing it you are told what it means) they will tend to see in it what they have been encouraged to see, and interpret it as they are encouraged to interpret it. This is especially the case when the suggested interpretations feed into a familiar narrative (Thaksin only has so many supporters because he has bought them).
Somsak Jeamteerasakul’s observation about the translation adds to our understanding as to why an alternate interpretation makes sense.
BTW, notice that “comments” had been turned off for the video. I think if you don’t want alternate interpretations to ruin your dubious expose, the first thing you do is turn off the comments.
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Jotman #106
“BTW, notice that “comments” had been turned off for the video. I think if you don’t want alternate interpretations to ruin your dubious expose, the first thing you do is turn off the comments.”
Comments were not disabled on the English subtitles version which has also proved highly popular. Even without the sentence about the edible benefits of democracy enjoyed under Thai Rak Thai the comments comprise very few alternate interpretations, rather a copious list of hate messages for Thaksin. The reactions seem to be as much to his revolting facial expressions and aggressive body language as to the 500 baht queues.
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This is a very good and inside article. So sad that we cannot find such a good report (& dedicate reporter) like Nick in Thailand. The news in Thailand is now sadly & completely different from what Nick report. The red’s TV station has been closed… I hope that the truth like this will be available to my Thai friends (who could not reach these kind of news and wrongly believe in what Thai media told them)…
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Penny
As Nick pointed out in his report, the Thai media were not in a position to produce this sort of report on these events from a red shirt perspective, whether they had a mind to or not, because the red shirts attacked their vehicles and threatened them. You can argue whether the chicken or the egg came first, if you like, but that was the reality over Songkran.
This information source is available to your Thai friends. The website is not blocked in Thailand and parts of it (I am not sure if this article is included yet) are translated into Thai.
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Tettyan #105
I agree that the popularity of the ‘war on drugs’ is disturbing although unfortunately it doesn’t astonish me. ‘Righteous’ crusades of this nature are appealing to a great many ‘upstanding citizens’ the world over. When Thaksin took over Manchester City FC I was one of a small minority of fans who opposed the takeover because of his record on human rights. There was a great deal of debate on the English MCFC fans message boards and a great swell of pro-Thaksin evangelism. He was a “champion of the poor against the evil aristocracy and the army”. New Mandala & BP were cited frequently; “these are the people who really know what’s going on in Thailand”. The war on drugs was ‘a good thing’ I was told. Shooting ‘druggy’ parents in front of their children would teach the kids to steer clear of the evils of drugs (really). “We should do the same in the UK”. “What about the human rights of the parents who lost their children to drugs?” was a common cry. I felt revulsion; I am no longer a football fan.
I’m not convinced that in Thailand at the time of the 2005 election that “many were aware that not everyone who was killed was necessarily a drug dealer”. The human rights atrocities committed by the TRT government were massively under-reported due to Thaksin’s stranglehold of the media. Even now many Bangkokians I speak to (even those who take a fairly serious interest in politics) are ill-informed about the war on drugs, especially in regard to any of the individual cases of victims exposed by HRW and others. Many of the anti-Thaksin crowd appreciate the opportunity to call him a murderer but seem to be very sketchy on the details.
It’s interesting that you should mention a ‘rule of law’ culture. I don’t disagree that this has been sadly lacking in Thailand. We now have a prime minister who is, at the very least, taking a few steps in the right direction, and is paying more attention to human rights issues (I acknowledge the disappointing response to the Rohingyha atrocities, and failure to prosecute Tak Bai, & repeal LM but he’s still a major improvement!). I hope you will join me in condemning the criminals who tried to kill him, attacked religious minorities, murdered local residents who were defending their livelihoods, and threatened to explode gas-tankers in residential areas of Bangkok.
I’m sure the ‘red’ poor of Northern Thailand have many genuine grievances which must be addressed as a matter of urgency, I’m sure that many of them are very nice people and that their culture is rich and fascinating, but this does not absolve them from being devotees to a murderous neo-fascist personality cult. Neither, in my view, does it provide moral justification to Mr Nostitz or others to propagandize the “red uprising” (sic). I’m not aware of Mr Nostitz work in regard to the war on drugs, but if, as I assume, he exposed these appalling abuses to the wider world then he is to be commended for doing so. I would not accuse him of “of ignoring Thaksin’s crimes during the war on drugs” but I would question his judgement in supporting a movement funded by, directed by, and devoted to a ‘human rights abuser of the worst kind’.
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The drug war has been several times cited. The reporting on the drug war at the time was not sketchy at all. During the first three weeks every day in the news the corpses were shown in all detail, and successes were announced.
What though was, and still is, very sketchy, is the background of the drug war and the killings.
First of all, the drug war was necessary. The drug problem was completely out of hand. The killings though were more than unnecessary, and the reasons of the defenders of the killings, that otherwise the drug war would not have led to a success, is not suitable for a country that aspires to be a developed nation.
But, to simply call it “Thaksin’s drug war” completely ignores the socio-political set up of Thailand, and the predominant patronage system. Thaksin alone could have never done such a drug war without the collaboration of power networks of equal or more importance than Thailand’s Prime Minister and his governing party.
As we relate these drug war killings to the current protest, then you can see that not just the Red Shirts, but also the PAD have in the leadership people that have actively supported the drug war killings, such as Sondhi Limthongkul, who at that time was a close associate of Thaksin, and whose media empire was an important tool to propagate the drug war. Also Chamlong Srimuang, still closely allied with Thaksin at the time, has not made one statement against the drug war killings then.
The drug war killings were at most a very minor reason for the formation of Thaksin’s present opposition.
Before and during the drug war i have photographed the drug situation extensively, and also the drug war killings. Of course i was appalled. Several people that i have known disappeared, and many were incarcerated.
I would gladly see a trials for the drug war killings, against Thaksin, and all collaborators. But this is not going to happen, not now, not ever. Even the so called investigation committee of which Kraisak Choonhavan was part of has made sure to state that there is no link between Thaksin and the killings. Very likely such a link would have also uncovered links to their own allies under Thaksin’s opponents. The only statement that they have made is that they found that most killed were not involved with drugs, which, on the ground at the time, i cannot confirm. Most dead that i have seen were well known to have been directly involved. That does not mean though that killing them was in order. They should have received the benefits of due legal process.
I am tired of the constant simplistic debates on the drugwar, especially when opposition to the drug war killings is cited to support a group whose leaders and backers have been as much part of the drug war killings as Thaksin. We have to face reality – the drug war killings were a collaborated effort of almost all Thai elites to combat the serious drug problem, and it was hugely popular, under Thaksin’s supporters and what are now his opponents. Hardly any of these opponents now stood up against the drug war killings then. Yet some of what are now Red Shirts were outspoken about the drug war. People such as Giles Ungpakorn.
Also, the tone of the debate that portraits the ordinary Red Shirts as simple paid tools of Thaksin is highly patronizing, and reduces thinking human beings to objects. It is completely besides the point what i may feel about Thaksin. What is important is what Red Shirts feel about him, when i report on Red Shirts. I am not reporting on my own political convictions, but theirs.
Neo- fascist personality cult? I would suggest to find definitions of “fascism”, and then try find which group in the present political game is more applicable to carry such a label.
Going around Red Shirt rallies, it actually is possible to discuss these points, and especially the drug war. One may find that there are many differing views under ordinary Red Shirts on Thaksin’s weaknesses and strong points.
One for me interesting point though is, that the journalists who now come out and criticize my and some other journalist’s stories of the present political mess are never, or hardly ever to be seen working on the ground, neither in Red Shirt protests, nor in PAD protests. Thai history is written right now, and i am constantly appalled how few journalists (and academics) actually make the effort, and work these events from the ground level, and instead decide to write their stories from their offices.
The best idea would though be that the critics of my reporting from the ground level would go down and make their own researched reports from the ground level, and find their own interpretation of what is happening now in Thailand’s political scene. Let well researched stories compete against each other, and let the reader decide for himself.
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Nick Nostitz #111
“But, to simply call it “Thaksin’s drug war” completely ignores the socio-political set up of Thailand, and the predominant patronage system. Thaksin alone could have never done such a drug war without the collaboration of power networks of equal or more importance than Thailand’s Prime Minister and his governing party.”
Can you be specific as to who collaborated with Thaksin and Thai Rak Thai in the drug wars that was of equal or more importance than them at the time?
“Neo- fascist personality cult? I would suggest to find definitions of “fascism”, and then try find which group in the present political game is more applicable to carry such a label.”
The origin of the modern use of the word “fascist” is surely Mussolini’s Partita Fascista Nazionale. The Italian fascists came to power in highly controversial elections acquiring a mass following of working class voters by promising real power to workers in the industrial structure through the fascist labour unions (“corporatism”). Before long corporatism and democracy were abandoned in favour of unrestrained capitalism and authoritarian one party rule respectively. This label is a perfect fit for Thaksin and his ambitions. Who else in Thailand are you suggesting is a more worthy candidate for it?
Thaksin’s role in the drug wars and in the brutal crackdown in the South qualifies him as a human rights abuser on an impressive scale. That the drug wars and the crackdown in the South were hugely popular in Thailand (where unbiased news about them was not available due to Thaksin’s stranglehold over the media) or that Sondhi Lim and Chamlong didn’t denounce them at the time fails to whitewash his record or make it acceptable that Westerners see him as in any way fit for public office in a developing country. They would clearly not accept such a leader in their own developed countries. Manchester City fans, who chose to overlook his evil deeds are now rightly embarrassed that they chose Thaksin’s cash over human decency.
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Can you be specific as to who collaborated with Thaksin and Thai Rak Thai in the drug wars that was of equal or more importance than them at the time?
I’ll try to take a stab at that one. Try looking at a speech from 4 Dec 2003. I wouldn’t try to read too much into it, but it might be good point of reference from which to think about this problem in general.
That the drug wars and the crackdown in the South were hugely popular in Thailand (where unbiased news about them was not available due to Thaksin’s stranglehold over the media) or that Sondhi Lim and Chamlong didn’t denounce them at the time fails to whitewash his record or make it acceptable that Westerners see him as in any way fit for public office in a developing country.
My opposition to Thaksin is based on principle. If other political leaders hold the same cavalier attitude toward the rule of law that he did (and supporting the war on drugs counts), then those leaders are just as unfit for public life as Thaksin is. As enthusiastic supporters of the drug war back in the day (who have never fully recanted their support – in fact, Chamlong was careful to say during the early stages of the PAD’s campaign that he was pro-Thaksin initially because he agreed w/ his policies during his first term), the PAD’s leadership are therefore, like Thaksin, also unfit for political leadership. That is why I am reluctant to support the Democrats wholeheartedly (though my family and many friends have been lifelong supporters) – because many members of their leadership have either explicit or backdoor connections to the PAD.
And it bothers me that no one has fully investigated what actually has happened and punished those involved. Thaksin’s opponents have been in power for most of the period since 2006, and still nothing. Their failure to take action in this regard is a but suspicious.
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Didn’t the military-backed government investigate the war on drugs? Why didn’t that result in any outcome? Could it be that too many on all sides of the current political divide are implicated? That doesn’t absolve Thaksin or the palace in any way, but when they had the chance to investigate, the result was convenient for many.
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“The best idea would though be that the critics of my reporting from the ground level would go down and make their own researched reports from the ground level, and find their own interpretation of what is happening now in Thailand’s political scene…”
It is certainly one of many good ideas, Nick #111, but not “the best”. At the end of day, you can be only at one place at a time and may end up describing a tree in the Red jungle. You are not privy to plannings and schemings of the Red Elites, the private phone calls with PMThaksin, the coordinations with PheuThai in the parliament, meetings in Hong Kong/Cambodia/Dubai the flow of cash etc…etc… A detailed report of PMThaksin’s VDO-links/phone-ins and rallies by the Red leadership country-wide, Red Radio and DTV contents would have also been helpful in understanding the radicalization process. What exactly transpired in those sessions? What was the crowd’s response? Where did the 100,000+ Reds come from? How did they get there? How were they fed?
These questions, ofcourse, also applies in the Yellow jungle and the new Blue jungle…
Don’t get me wrong, you have provided an excellent account here – that is undeniable – and you are to be highly commended for being transparent with your biases (something I find rare but admirable). I even nominated you for the Red leadership for your sincerity to the cause of the poor in contrast to PMThaksin and co.
There is a consistent manipulation of the poor and minorities through the War on Drugs and recent Red Violence in the media game that PMThaksin is a true master. Media images of ‘dead drug pushers and users’ to support PMThaksin’s ‘decisiveness’ and ‘effectiveness’ of HIS War on Drugs (and he happily claimed authorship and ownership as it feeds his popularity). Images of ‘dead Red fighters for democracy’ to support PMThaksin’s media reinvention of the ‘fighter for “True Democracy” against an oppressive, violent government’.
Really, it is a simple question of who’s policy this War on Drugs belongs to and who marketed it for all its worth… Should we blame the Iraqi War and the resultant hundred thousands of deaths and millions homeless on Bush/Cheney/Blair/Howard etal or do we blame it on the Queen of England?
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“Really, it is a simple question of who’s policy this War on Drugs belongs to and who marketed it for all its worth… “
Thaksin himself seems to be in little doubt who’s drug war it was, and he is still feeling very pleased with himself about it-
“Everyone who benefitted from the Bt30 healthcare scheme for all, or those who got their children back after I waged a war on drugs,……”
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/03/31/opinion/opinion_30099202.php
He was also quite clear at the time of the drug war as to what results he was looking for fron his drug war-
“Because drug traders are ruthless to our children, so being ruthless back to them is not a bad thing . . . . It may be necessary to have casualties . . . . If there are deaths among traders, it’s normal.”
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/thailand0704/4.htm#_ftnref7
“In this war, drug dealers must die.”
http://www.dassk.com/contents.php?id=132
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“They would clearly not accept such a leader in their own developed countries. Manchester City fans, who chose to overlook his evil deeds are now rightly embarrassed that they chose Thaksin’s cash over human decency.”
The Man City fans are still talking about Thaksin and it would certainly appear that he is no longer the messiah-
http://www.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=116041
Let’s hope that the New Mandala red-shirts will also see the error of their ways before too long.
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Thaksin himself seems to be in little doubt who’s drug war it was, and he is still feeling very pleased with himself about it-
No need to beat a dead horse. Everyone agrees here that Thaksin took responsibility for the drug war, and that in a just world he should be prosecuted and put away for it. But if we’re going to be fair, everyone who had a role in the drug war should be prosecuted for their crimes as well. But I don’t think that’s what this government or the military government was interested in doing, which is probably why there has never been a real investigation of the drug war since.
If anything, the drug war shows that Thaksin was a bad guy, but only marginally worse than the alternatives (yes, a Prime Minister Chamlong or a Prime Minister Sondhi L would have been just as enthusiastic about prosecuting the drug war). It doesn’t show him to be so evil as to have justified a military coup.
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You can’t hide your color as well. Among the reds there are good and bad as well. Do you sumpathize to the “no color” Thais?
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The Man City fans are still talking about Thaksin and it would certainly appear that he is no longer the messiah-
[....]
Let’s hope that the New Mandala red-shirts will also see the error of their ways before too long.
I don’t think anyone here is arguing that Thaksin is a messiah. What some of us are saying is that some of the grievances of the rank-and-file red shirts (their leaders aside) are legitimate. These grievances cannot be simply brushed aside by the powers that be if Thailand is to achieve social peace and sustainable development under a democratic order that respects the rule of law. You’re free to disagree with this point of view, but it’s a point of view many of us support because it’s grounded in logic and the facts (and yes, we have taken into account the fact that Thaksin is no messiah). Unless those facts change, don’t bet on me to see the “error of my ways.”
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Nick Nostitz #111
Nick is correct that there was support for “Thaksin’s drug war” from all sections of the elite. I think there was a statement of support from the palace at the time. It is to Giles Ungpakorn’s credit that he was against this policy. Did the ex-leftist, ex-1973 students who followed Taksin across from Phalang Dharma into the TRT also protest? At the time what was noticeable was that the highest levels in the drug trade were untouchable. The provincial godfathers who mostly supported the TRT and the men in uniform in the north were never bothered.
The reason that many started to fear Taksin was seeing him appoint relatives and friends to the Thailand’s most important government jobs. The media was being bought by Taksin’s cronies and the signs were that Taksin was building the means to control the country for a lifetime. I think comparison with Pibulsonggram is not out of order and fascist is as good a term as any to describe the periods of Pibulsonggram rule.
Could Sondhi be similar? Quite possible but that is not here and now. Chamlong? More likely to retire to his farm again than become a fascist leader. Interesting today in the Nation interview to see Sondhi reaching out to those in the red shirt who are against powerful corrupt political elites in politics and the military.
Also interesting to see the four people who the Nation points out would be hurt by and end to time limitations on trials for those who flee overseas. Along with Thaksin and Jakrapob it gives us Kamnan Poh and Vatana Asavahame.
Just to make it clear, even if “Thaksin’s drug war” had included killing the big men in this trade, it still wouldn’t have been the right thing to do. Its is still murder. Once the police, especially in the provinces, were given targets abuse was sure follow.
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tettyan #120
What are the grievances of the rank and file red shirts? Apart from whitewashing Thaksin, giving him his money back and bringing him home to be a vengeful PM, it is not clear what these are?
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It is amazing to see how much outrage and even almost a hate is expressed at Nick by people like Portman, Les Abbys etc.
WOW !
they blame him for bias. alright, I understand that they must be a champions of FREE SPEECH than – the famous “fair and balanced” cliche !
but then …
I can’t see them speaking about the TOO OBVIOUS BIAS unleashed by Thai partisan MSM, government PR propaganda campaign (Satit), and army’s own (Kansern). I don’t see them denounce the TOTAL MEDIA BLACKOUT conducted by MICT (all the TV, radio and websites of Reds being blocked).
so, EVEN IF Nick was biased (I don’t agree with that) – his ALTERNATIVE coverage of events is perhaps a tiny drop in the raging ocean of BLATANT PROPAGANDA conducted by Thai MSM, amry, gov, ajarns (especial SHAME on them – thery are disgrace to the word “intellectuals” – more like a “prostitutes for the Establishment ” !!! )
Portman, here is my challenge :
can you refer to at least ANY ONE SINGLE genuine UNbiased source in Thai Media ? WHY DON’T YOU talk about MUCH LARGER BIAS conducted by all those mentioned Propaganda players ?
my guess is – because you’r either one of them, shamelessly dishonest to the core – or you are an “armchair demagogue” !
now, how about that, huh ?
just one simple example:
you kept raving about Nik mentioning LIVE bullets…
you accuse him of distortion. well, as you might know – the “burden of evidence” lies upon the accuser, not the accused. yet you DID NOT provide ANY evidences to prove your accusations – instead you ….. demand evidences from Nick !
this is dishonest, my friend. you demand from others something what you don’t even bother to do – although in CIVIL debate (and in legal process) – it is YOU who must provide evidences.
then in comment #75 Ralph Kramden has given a Link to Nation ! (perhaps the most biased of Thai newspapers) the article which clearly shows that Army has admitted the usage of LIVE ammo (although I have watched many TV reports prior to that where officials also admitted that).
then the most intersting part is:
I couldn’t find ANY of your comments on that. it seems like you have simply dissapeared and shrunk, hey ?
WHERE HAS GONE YOUR OUTRAGE AND RIGHTEOUS ANGER at Nick’s mentioning the LIVE bullets, dude ?
WHERE is your APOLOGY for all your accusations and raving all along ?
NIck – don’t you get upset by this kind of personal attacks !
keep up the good work – because you’re right in your effot of “giving a voice to the people that generally have no voice in society” !!!
because this is what I consider as “subversive truth” – the one which comes from the grassrots, NOT from the top down, given by “officials”.
to me personally (and I am sure that I’m not alone) – no matter what Portman and others would say in attacking you, your kind of reports is worth a million times then INSINCERE pontification of those people.
as saying goes: “dogs bark and caravan goes on”
DON’T BE AFFECTED by these insincere comments, my friend !
once again : DEEPEST RESPECT to standing up to them and defending your ADHERENCE TO TRUTH !
all those who have balls and audacity to shamelessly blame him of bias – go and collect your own “facts” and write your own story – why don’t you ?! as I know NM has stated time and again that they accept the contribution by “visitor authors” .
otherwise – STOP pointing fingers, because as saying goes : “when you point a finger to someone – 3 other fingers point back to you !”
what a nerve these guys have, huh? simply unbelievable !
“kettle calls pot black”
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after having a closer look at Portman’s comments, including the last one #122 – I come to conclusion that he himself is SHAMELESS DEMAGOGUE – a typical for ….. PAD (“Yellow zombies” as they are known now for their too obvious brainwashedness)
Portman – you keep accusing others of partisanship.
so, I think to be consistent – you must state your own allegence !
so far all I can see is – you DISTORT the facts. and that is with too obvious advantage to certain group of people – so called “People’s Alliance for Democracy” – which are in fact “Elitist Alliance for Dictatorship”
PAD ruthless propaganda is unmatched.
however it is TOO EASY to defeat for anoyne with at least 1 cell of brains in the skull.
as, for example the last Portman’s comment #122 – TOTAL BS and nonsence.
Portman – I dare you to PROVE your statement !
since you love to challenge others to provide evidences, you must be well able to do that yourself.
otherwise you would lose tha last shread of credibility and firmly fall into the category of “Yellow Zombies” whom I deeply despise.
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“Portman”
quote:
“What are the grievances of the rank and file red shirts? Apart from whitewashing Thaksin, giving him his money back and bringing him home to be a vengeful PM, it is not clear what these are?”
I rest my case, thank you for clearly beating me in terms of bias, and proving this so well. It may have escaped you that there are endless speeches about the so called “Armatayatipatai” vs. “Prachatipatai”, equal rights and opportunities, and similar topics held on the stages of the Red Shirts.
“antipadshist”:
Thank you very much.
Some of the accusations here are slightly ridiculous indeed. As to the bullets – picture no. 59 – the windows of the bus soldiers walk by – does show bullet holes. The bullet that passed the tree under which i was standing was very real, and i believe, judging from the sound of the gun that was fired just before the bullet passed – it might have been a handgun, and not an assault rifle. Also, when i spoke with the young corporal, there was no question about “fake bullets” in the morning attack.
I was accused that i did not write about the gas tanker incident at Din Daeng apartments. I have done that on purpose, as i have not been there when this happened. I only wrote what i saw of the clashes of 13th, and what was told to me by proven and trusted sources. Obviously i will not expose my sources. I have pointed out at the introduction of my report, that this is not a complete report.
Nirmal Gosh in one of his blogs has a very good article about the gas tanker incident, and at a later stage i will include reports by others that i know are trustworthy on incidents that were important, and where i have not been able to be present.
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What are the grievances of the rank and file red shirts? Apart from whitewashing Thaksin, giving him his money back and bringing him home to be a vengeful PM, it is not clear what these are?
Gee, where do I start? How about the double-standard treatment of the Yellow Shirts and the Red Shirts, some of whom (but not all) were involved in illegal acts of violence and insurrection? I think the gov’t has gotten wind of this, and have ordered the cases against the PAD leaders to move now that they’re bringing charges against the reds, but before the red uprising, it looked like the PAD leaders were getting away with their crimes.
How about the fact that the PAD want to take away the votes of the rural poor, by allowing only 30% of parliament to be elected, with the remaining 70% appointed (and who presumably will be middle and upper class – just look at the appointed senators today). And the fact that this group that is implacably opposed to their right to participate in democracy enjoys the patronage from the very highest levels of Thai society?
How about the fact that their first choice for government (whether they made the right choice or wrong choice – I personally think they made the wrong choice, but I don’t doubt the legitimacy of their choice, even though I think it was wrong) was ousted in a military coup and then their second and third choices ousted by judicial fiat?
How about the vast social and income inequalities in the country, and most of all the great inequalities of opportunity? The reds and the poor are now told that the first PM in generations to have made substantial progress in alleviating these inequalities was the wrong choice. Now I criticized the implementation of these policies and doubted their long-term sustainability, but it’s been documented widely, even among scholars and journalists who don’t like Thaksin, that policies such as 30 baht health care and the village fund did have a positive effect on the life of the poor (we don’t know whether they could have been sustained long-term because the people weren’t given an opportunity to see them through). I disagreed with Thaksin’s 1-district-1 scholarship to study at a foreign university at the time because it was poorly planned and the implementation was botched, but by the time of the coup, several adjustments had been made and the program was beginning to show some promise to provide real educational opportunities for the gifted among the poor. But we’ll never know how it will have turned out because it was 1 of the first programs that the junta cut, while at the same time they increased the military budget by 50%.
I could go on, but just looking at these events at face value, many of the lower classes who support the reds have gotten the message that time and time again that their votes and their opinions on politics do not matter one cent.
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Portman #122
What are the grievances of the rank and file red shirts? Apart from whitewashing Thaksin, giving him his money back and bringing him home to be a vengeful PM, it is not clear what these are?
How about their stolen rights, the rights to have leader of the country of their own choosing, not one chosen for them by the palace-military-judiciary complex? Is this “not clear” enough? Or perhaps you’re so deluded yourself into thinking that you’re ‘devada’ and your view on Thaksin must be accepted by them as well, in order for you to see any grievances that these ordinary folks may have?
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“How about their stolen rights, the rights to have leader of the country of their own choosing….”
Do those rights extend to allowing that chosen leader to manipulate (by whatever means) the outcomes of any legitimate cases against him?
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Nick (#125)
actually you don’t even have to prove anything to those who attack you ! you can reply to them simply : “burden of evidence” lies upon the accuser, not the accused – so, let THEM prove their accusations and provide evidences for that !
and when I say “evidences” – I mean solid hard evidences, NOT some theoritizing or speculations based on some theoretical knowledge or even more precisely on their own INTERPRETATIONS of that theoretical knowledge !
by solid evidences I mean – let them produce something like : some WITNESS who was there beside Nick and may say “no Nick is lying – there was no any bullets flying over our heads, certainly not real bullets”, or any such, as well as, say, proper investigation among the troops who were actually participating in those events, and whoever else – like may be who were shot by “blank” bullets.
I bet my a$$ they can’t provide ANY such evidences !
whatever….
but the main point is – it is THEM (like Portman) who must proove their accusations with solid evidences – NOT accused (Nick) !
and ANY attempt to charge Nick with accusations without providing sufficient evidences for such accusations is baseless because of “presumption of innocense” – basic principle in legal practice in all civilised countries !
on other hand, their challenge to dare Nick to “provide evidences” – is nothing else than a DIRTY TRICK !
because they are accusers, yet they lay the “burden of evidence”.
Nick,
personally I don’t think you’re biased – at most what you can be accused of is being sympathetic towards reds, yes – “sympathetic” is the ONLY correct word is applicable here ! and I don’t see anything wrong in person having certain sympathies in FREE and democratic society, and those who would accuse another of being sympathetic perhaps need to check their own “bias-ometer” !
because “bias” is :
2. a. A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment.
b. An unfair act or policy stemming from prejudice.
(An inclination for or against that inhibits impartial judgment)
I didn’t find in your story ANYTHING which was “partial judgement” or “unfair” !
I am sure – you would have (and wanted) to say more than that, according to many other things you’ve seen or heard – but you withheld those “more” things precisely because you have taking a big care to present the story in as much IMPARTIAL way as possible.
In fact, I think it is those who attack you are biased ! because :
“In psychology, cognitive bias is bias based on cognitive factors. One type of cognitive bias is confirmation bias, the tendency to interpret new information in such a way that confirms one’s prior beliefs, even to the extreme of denial, ignoring information that conflicts with one’s prior beliefs. The fundamental attribution error, also known as “correspondence bias”, is one example of such bias, in which people tend to explain others’ behavior in terms of personality, whereas they tend to explain their own behavior in terms of the situation”
confirmation bias – is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one’s preconceptions and to avoid information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs.
so, there are people who are thoroughly BRAINWASHED by “Combined Propaganda” (Thai MSM + gov. + army PR + “ajarns” + their own interests to preserve the status quo) and they FILTER all the facts and informatin through their prism of deluded perseption of reality ! ( this is especially typical of “Yellow zombies”
therefore ANYTHING and EVERYTHING they hear or read – they filter, or interpret in their own BIASED (cognitive bias) twisted way.
however if once in a while they come across something which they can’t neither “filter” nor interpret – they get furious ! mainly because such information challenges and destroys their carefully constructed ILLUSION – they can’t maintain their own dellusional ideas anymore, they can’t allow doubts or anything to undermine their own cognitive bias !
that’s why they have no choice but PROTECT their own bias – they have to confront and attack the source of such disturbing information (“shooting the messanger” allegory comes to mind
).
and the best way to do it – of course to accuse that person of bias.
now, first of all – this in itself can be considered as “Argumentum ad Hominem” fallacy (or “personal attack”) – because in a decent debate people would avoid attacking person, but only stick to attacking argument itself. however accusing person of bias is a trick which accomplishes exactly what “attack on person” constitutes : switching the debate from the ARGUMENT itself (the premise) towards the personality of opponent, then attempting to DISCREDIT the opponent by some accusation (as “bias” here) and in such away to DISMISS the argument made by opponent as lacking credibility.
the logic is : person A is “bla-bla-bla” therefore whatever he say is BS, because he can’t be trusted.
although my charges to him have more sense than his charges to Nick)
(I know – I’m fully aware that I’ve practically done the same thing in #122 – I did it on purpose to let him get the idea of the feeling – sort of paid with the same coin
now, coming back to “evidences” !
check it out, more interesting part :
Confirmation bias is of interest in the teaching of critical thinking, as the skill [of critical thinking] is misused if rigorous critical scrutiny is applied only to evidence challenging a preconceived idea but not to evidence supporting it
so, how about that, huh ?
to me it is pretty obvious that what is mentioned above can be seen in the posts of many those here who attack Nick !
they have their own preconceived idea (“Reds are evil, violent, uneducated mob paid by eveil monster from hell Thaksin to help him back his money” or something like that) and they always get more than plenty of confirmation for that all over the Thai Media (which reflects the opinions of other sources aligned with it). but once they come accross of something which challenges their such preconceived idea – they ONLY apply rigorous ctirical scrutiny to that information, and demand EVIDENCES, or try to dismiss it if they think there are not evidences, or if there are evidences – they are EXTREMELY critical of those evidences too (as in recent Parliament debates the Dems said that photos provided by PT are fake and edited in Photoshop
)
but
whatever the twist in such “debates” – we can NEVER see these people applying the SAME amount of rigorous ctirical scrutiny to the “evidences” whihc rather support their own preconceived idea (fair to say – prejudice) !
why is that?
because of …. their own cognitive bias !!!!
(confirmation bias).
and what is more ! if someone is attempting to find evidences which prove that wrong preconceived idea – they accuse them of “smearing campaign” etc.
this is like a hillarious comedy !
if only it didn’t have such a serious consiquences to the real world we live in – the careful and thorough formation of public opinion based entirely on BIAS of preconceived idea !
the main problem is – there are very few people (among general public) who bother to examine carefully such bias, because it takes time and effort. there are of course few who see it through instantly. but even they usually do not attempt to challenge it in public – because again, for general public it would seem more like bnickering or quarrel (as recent Parliament debates). and those very few who does try – they are instantly booed and ridiculed, even may be risk “pesonality assassination” (term usually used in US, like who was that – Clark ? the guy who held high position in Bush’s government and dared to voice his doubts about 9/11 and then faced huge smearing campaign by MSM till he had no choice bu resign)
that’s why this sort of affairs continues.
I’m glad that still there are some honest intellectuals (even those who comments here) who do voice their disagreement with such “confirmation bias”.
although some of them eventually are silenced (for example, it is too easy to find something in their statements which can be charged with certain draconian laws
– it is even sufficient to simply make such charge, not even necessarily it to be proved … ) and are forced either keep quite, or “be in line”, or …. go elsewhere 
so, as I mentioned previously – their bias and demagoguery is quite easy to defeat for anyone who simply tries. no even need to be any sort of profi. I’m nobody – but I do use my brains and I don’t swallow the crap pushed by such demagogues. and I’m 100% sure that there are a lot more people out there who see it through too, and have muhc higher skills.
therefore, as saying goes “you can fool some people some time – but you can’t fool all the people all the time”
I believe that eventually TRUTH prevails anyway and I thank Nick again for sticking to the truth. as well as all those who give support to Nick (like ajaran Somsak here – as one of the very few remaining honest intellectuals who do not prostitute themselves to the Establishment !).
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Somsak Jeamteerasakul #127
“How about their stolen rights, the rights to have leader of the country of their own choosing, not one chosen for them by the palace-military-judiciary complex? Is this “not clear” enough?”
Yes, it is clear enough that this is a periphrasis of “whitewashing Thaksin, giving him his money back and bringing him home to be a vengeful PM”. While Thai citizens certainly have the right to choose their own political leaders, none of the Thai constitutions has never given the Thai people the right to choose their own head of state or even prime minister. The head of state is the king and the prime minister is elected by MPs. The Thai republic and presidential elections remain a pipe dream for red shirt intellectuals.
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Antipadshist #123
“then in comment #75 Ralph Kramden has given a Link to Nation ! (perhaps the most biased of Thai newspapers) the article which clearly shows that Army has admitted the usage of LIVE ammo (although I have watched many TV reports prior to that where officials also admitted that).”
If you look at my posts, you will see that I always pointed out that the army from the beginning had admitted using practice rounds, which are generally accurate up to 25 metres but can still be lethal up to about 200 metres, in addition to blank ammunition. I also suggested that certain soldiers, probably NCOs (a corporal is an NCO by the way), were issued with ball ammunition for use in case their lives or those of their colleagues were threatened. The situation when they were faced with a bus that had a brick placed on the accelerator bearing down on their lines was clearly a justifiable use of ball ammunition. Anyway where are the bodies and the queues of relatives looking for missed loved ones? There still seems to be great disappointment amongst red shirt leaders and their foreign fans that the hoped for news clips of massed slaughter and truck loads of bodies have not yet materialized. Perhaps the next red assault on the capital will prove more fruitful.
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Portman
the bodies are certainly “not in hospitals” (morgues) – it is true.
the question is – why. because of very well pre-planned and carried out cover up for the facts, right at the moment of those bodies being dropped on the ground by LIVE bullets.
sure, it is perhaps the BIGGEST failure of UDD to ensure that these evidences do not dissapear.
but as I know – there is a Parliamentary investigation going on already. till it is done (if ever at all) – you can’t claim either that these are merely untrue allegations.
“queues of relatives looking for missed loved ones” – there are such, and they are NOT talking to Thai MSM due to obvious reason – BIAS ! they talk though to PT MPs.
yes, there is a great dissapointment – first of all for SHAMELESS Media BIAS ! and for people like you still continuing DEMONIZING those who fought for their rights and liberties.
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Antipadhist, whilst I think Portman is being somewhat
“uncompromising” with much of what he says (which is his right to be), I do think, he makes a very valid point about the friends and loved ones not queuing up, to ask “where the bodies are” – I believe, you have been too quick to dismiss his comment on this.
You often use the term MSM, to imply the Mass Media.
Perhaps the Mass Media are “in league” with the government and the military and are ignoring these “lines”.
But, I find it hard to believe, the same about the many blogs/forums and other web venues, covering Thailand- both those hosted IN Thailand and OUTSIDE, as well.
Admittedly, as I do not read Thai, I have little knowledge of the chatter on Thai language forums.
However,I would supsect, there is much being said on the Red/UDD supporting sites, fanning the flames – with some “evidence” being sited, by those associated with the “missing”.
But, if there was something “real” in this chatter, I am sure, by now, it would be on “academic/objective English language forums such as this one, Bangkok Pundit and even, some of the more openely “critical” sites, such as, Thai Crisis and Thailand Jumped The Shark – with some evidence of these people asking, “where is my husband” and so on.
The internet has made it almost impossible, to do such a “mass” cover up, for more than a couple of days.
Not everyone is going to “keep quiet”.
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Do those rights extend to allowing that chosen leader to manipulate (by whatever means) the outcomes of any legitimate cases against him?
What evidence do you have that he manipulated any cases? I’m no Thaksin fan, and I think there’s plenty he got away with, but injustice is endemic in Thailand, and the rich and the powerful, long before Thaksin was even born, were able to get away with the law.
So justice in Thailand shows favourtism toward those with the means, but that doesn’t mean that there were TRT apparatchiks pulling strings behind the scenes – the justice system does have some autonomy. How else could you explain how the infamous Kamnan Poh, whose son was a minister in Thaksin’s government at the time, was finally found guilty of a crime back when Thaksin was in power – after years of evading justice? How about the administrative court’s ruling that blocked Thaksin’s proposed privatization of EGAT (a longstanding pet project of his) – before the PAD was even formed? How about his defamation suit against Thai Post that was thrown out by the courts? Or that his political opponents, once they had power, still had trouble pushing cases against him because they ignored the obvious cases like the war on drugs and only went for a few flimsy corruption cases?
Unless you come up with some proof, your statement is little more than a gross exaggeration.
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Portman still claims that no live rounds were used – except on one bus (?) – and earlier said: “Can you share with us your photos of the bullet holes and the copper clad full metal jacket rounds being loaded?”
There is now such evidence and it is widely available.
“Actually the army did not say they only used fake ammunition. If you look back at their statements, they said they used blanks and practice rounds.”
Well, the army commander no longer says that.
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Tettyan: I was actually referring to a future manipulation & whitewash, but since you bring up the past, can I ask you whether you were fully satisfied with the processes during Thaksin’s rule, and in particular regarding the conduct of the drug war, the southern insurgency situation, the investigations into those matters, the favorable rulings by tax revenue officials and numerous other government deals which were favorable to Shin interests?
Somsak J: “How about their stolen rights, the rights to have leader of the country of their own choosing….”
Nganadeeleg: “Do those rights extend to allowing that chosen leader to manipulate (by whatever means) the outcomes of any legitimate cases against him?”
So in summary, do you think going back to (or continuing) a corrupt style of administration is a way for Thailand to move forward?
btw, gross exageration is what I’m best at
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Thanks antipadshist for educating us ‘datjarit devadas’ about “confirmation bias” – and congratulations to Nick as he seem to have gained a hardcore fan! I count myself a fan of Nick’s posts, but he certainly has his ‘bias’ as I do mine (really, who is not?). The main thing is not to regress into “Evil Reds” and “Yellow Zombies” extremes – as Nun#119 stated, there are “good” and “bad” elements in both camps.
For the sake of Thai reconciliation (if it is still possible), let’s also try our best to make sure standards apply evenly across the divide. The PAD leadership must be held accountable for closure of Government House and the two airports as the Red leadership must be accountable for disrupting ASEAN, threatening the safety of the prime minister and other foreign dignitaries, holding Bangkok hostage and the ensuing violence.
So if the “burden of prove lies with the accuser” as antipadshist contends, then PMThaksin, Red Elites and Pheu Thai must provide solid evidences for the truckloads of dead (and poor) Red sacrificial lambs that they are peddling in parliament and the foreign media. PT MPs have been promising incriminating DVDs, let the public see it. If the local media are too “bias”, pass it on to the international media via PMThaksin. Pheu Thai’s investigator par excellence and the alternate prime minister, Chalerm Yoobamrung must have also been “on holidays”, like KYPotjaman and the Shinawatra children, during the Songkran melee?
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Tettyan #118 & 120
I don’t doubt that the rank-and-file red shirts do have many legitimate grievances and with regard to their ‘legitimate’ grievances they have my full support. I also fully agree that Thailand must strive for to “achieve social peace and sustainable development under a democratic order that respects the rule of law”. But, if “Everyone agrees here that Thaksin took responsibility for the drug war, and that in a just world he should be prosecuted and put away for it.” How can a movement dedicated to restoring such a brutal human rights criminal to power advance the cause of respect for the rule of law? Are the murders of thousands of (almost exclusively poor) people a trivial matter? A petty offence?
I also agree unreservedly with this statement by the way “…everyone who had a role in the drug war should be prosecuted for their crimes as well.”
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Ralph Kramden #135
This is a pointless argument because the army has all along said it used live rounds, as I pointed out from beginning – a “practice” round is a live round in case you have still not been able to grasp that point. If one hit you in the head from 100 metres, I doubt you would be able to tell the difference. I also suggested that the army would have distributed ball ammunition to certain soldiers for use in self defence, as in the bus with a brick on the accelerator incident.
More to the point, where are the dead bodies?
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Not pointless at all. You are wrong. There is evidence of live rounds being used and not the practice rounds you refer to. I take the army commander’s statement as one of fact.
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How can a movement dedicated to restoring such a brutal human rights criminal to power advance the cause of respect for the rule of law?
Neither side is untarnished in this regard – hardly either the PAD, UDD, the army or the Democrats is a paragon of rules-based, liberal democracy. Thailand has a long way to go before it even begins to resemble successful (if imperfect) democracies like the UK, US, Australia, Germany or even South Korea. All sorts of things need to fall into place before that can happen. But among these things, there is a hierarchy of factors, some of which are more important than others. The first prerequisite is that relatively fair election outcomes be respected, and not overturned at will by military coups. The second is a constitution that is a social contract among the people based on national-consensus, not some draft put together in a dark room by the army’s hand-picked men. Some Reds are still hardcore Thaksin fanatics, but their principle grievance now is to have the constitution rewritten (or at least restore some version of the 1997 constitution) and to hold new elections. So long as that’s what they’re united behind for now, I’m sympathetic with them. Now, once they accomplish that, we’ll see what their next goal is. Some (but not all) might want to bring Thaksin back as PM and undo all the prosecutions of him. That would be difficult, given that the only person who can relieve him of his sentence now if he returns to the country is HM the King. If somehow the guy does become PM again and all of his crimes are whitewashed, and he begins persecuting his enemies, then you might find me in the streets among people protesting against him. But we’re light years away from that scenario at this point.
I don’t think Thaksin’s disrespect for the rule of law is be something that should be downplayed. But if you look at him within the context of a political system where elites of all stripes get away with crimes all the time, and if you notice this his opponents disrespect democracy to a much greater degree than Thaksin does by supporting military coups, reversing fair election outcomes they don’t like, and amending the constitution to water down the influence of elected MPs, you need to wonder whether the hatred of the rabidly anti-Thaksin crowd is misdirected.
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Mungo Gubbins #138
How can a movement dedicated to restoring such a brutal human rights criminal to power advance the cause of respect for the rule of law? Are the murders of thousands of (almost exclusively poor) people a trivial matter? A petty offence?
Please show me where and when did you openly call for the murder of 6 Tula, the most barbaric, beastly mass murder in Thai history, to be brought to account for his responsibility, where and when did you call for the end of his power? If there is none, I say you are definitely a pretentious, hypocrite.
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Tettyan #141: Nice post – FWIW, I agree with that position
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Very good points Tettyan #141, but on the other hand it’s extremely hard to correct/redirect the habitual/traditional cycle of Thai Democracy where capitalist-mafias (the likes of PMThaksin) keeps creating pretexts for coups (who then often find deals with the capitalist-mafias too attractive to refuse). It is hoped that a robust rule of law culture will eventually mitigate politician’s and army general’s corruption and ambitions.
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Ralph Kramden #140
I repeat yet again. A practice round is a LIVE round. Got it?
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Somsak Jeamteerasakul #142
“Please show me where and when did you openly call for the murder of 6 Tula, the most barbaric, beastly mass murder in Thai history, to be brought to account for his responsibility, where and when did you call for the end of his power? If there is none, I say you are definitely a pretentious, hypocrite.”
Come on now. Since NM was only started in 2006, how do you expect Mungo Gubbins to produce posts on something that happened in 1976, on which there are no threads? If you are referring to Samak Sundarvej’s notorious role in inciting right wing vigilantes to commit the Thammasat massacre and other attrocities, thankfully his power as a stooge PM for Thaksin has come to an end and is unlikely to be revived, given his legal problems. If you are referring to the King, please be more specific.
Gubbins’ point that a movement dedicated to restoring to power a serial human rights abuser, responsible for the brutal deaths of thousands of poor people, can hardly been expected to advance the rule of law was a perfectly valid one. Your tangental assault on Gubbins does not refute his point at all, unless you are arguing that Thaksin’s human rights abuse is trivial compared to other more monstrous criminals in history and therefore he is somehow still fit for public office. In this case, your criticism of whoever it is you are insinuating was responsible for the 6 Tula massacre is hypocrisy, unless you can produce posts condemning Vlad the Impaler.
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How can a movement dedicated to restoring such a brutal human rights criminal to power advance the cause of respect for the rule of law?
I think most Red Shirts I have seen quoted recently even in the unsympathetic Thai press haven’t said they are dedicated to restoring Thaksin to power. I think we should take their statements at face value — they are looking to undo injustices imposed after the coup.
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Somsak Jeamteerasakul #142
I do believe in prosecution for all human rights abuse, and my opposition to Thaksin and his red-shirt movement is firmly rooted in my revulsion to his/their behaviour as opposed to any deep-seated partisan attachment to any particular group or individual. At this moment in time I am tentatively supportive of Abhisit’s position (I am definitely not supportive of the PAD or the military’s agenda). If he becomes complicit in rights abuse, or any significant abuse of power I will not hesitate to condemn him.
The October 6th atrocity was undoubtedly a “barbaric, beastly mass murder” which should never be allowed to be white-washed, forgotten or diminished. Unfortunately I’m not convinced that prosecutions for every actor (or failing to actor) in the massacre could realistically be enacted at any time in the foreseeable future, certainly not without further bloodshed and greater instability. Raising awareness of the incident is, I would agree, very important indeed. I would also very much like to see Thailand make strenuous efforts to ‘protect’ its highest institution from the need to become involved in the sordid business of politics.
“you are definitely a pretentious, hypocrite.”
You are welcome to call me names if it makes you feel better, you won’t be the first. Are you a Man City fan by any chance?
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@Regular Reader #133
I wasn’t “too quick” to dismiss his comment – I’ve read them (from 1 to 130+) all for several days .
because that’s what this all about – covering up the truth to be able to make this very argument : WHERE ARE THE BODIES. by asking this kind of thing – it is rather he (as well as gov., Thai MSM and all others who are “too quick” to demonize Reds) who is “too quick” to dismiss the argument that there WERE people killed.
photojourn blog has a story about monk telling this – that he saw it himself. would monk lie ?
there is Al Jazeera video where briefly old woman is talking to reporter crying and saying that her husband is missing ever since – and that bodied were loaded on garbage trucks…
perhaps “eveil foreign journalist” from Al Jazeera also was paid by Thaksin to stage this well acted by old woman (aslo paid by Thaksin no doubt
) , pretend crying and tell this “disinformation” ?
the reason WHY people are not “quing up” is pretty obvious for thoughtful people, because :
1) people do not trust murderers who kill in cold blood and professionally dispose of bodies instantly;
2) they neither trust the Thai MSM – prostitute for Establishment.
regarding many blogs …
as you might realize, all of those blogs (except very few ad this Nick’s story , or that photojourn’s – who DO their own sort of investigations and post ONLY accounts of the things they’ve experienced themselves, or from trustworthy sources) – most of blogs mostly comment on the work of others, as well as MSM. therefore it is natural that they too do not publish somethings as facts, but at most as allegations – unless they can find some solid evidences.
now, the ONLY valid point which can be made here is – that so far there are no solid evidences. SO FAR.
other things whatever Prtman or anyone else say – are NOT valid points. so far not presented – doesn’t mean there are non. neither it means that what was said (about people killed) is not true.
I do agree with the 2 points (although these are not made by Portman – I’ve read elsewhere):
1) government / army were EXTREMELY clever and may be fair to say professional in taking great care to thoroughly COVER UP the killings.
2) UDD leaders (and PT MPs) FAILED to ensure that the solid evidences are gathered on the spot and do not dissapear.
yesterday Nation has published a story that 3 UDD leaders are gonna hold a gathering on Sun in some temple at Dong Muang area where they siad they’ll provide evidences to expose government as “tyrant and murderer”.
MPs have also formed a group (or two ?) to conduct the investigations into this matter
so, as you can see, there are apparently some evidences after all.
let’s wait and see…
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@Sidh S #137
oh, so twittily sarcastic, aren’t we ?
(or rather twatily ?)
“For the sake of Thai reconciliation ” bla-bla-bla ….
I tell you what ! if you care so much about “reconciliation” as you claim (or pretend) – you (and all your buddies as Portman) would have STOPPED demonizing REd-shirts and at VERY LEAST would have SUPPOSED that hey, may be after all, these rural peasants (reds) DO have a right to voice their opinions / protest the injustice done to them for decades, and they DO have some important things to say. you would have at VERY LEAST try to find some facts which migh challenge YOUR OWN COGNITIVE BIAS towards them – rather then trying to filter out all the information through your prejudice and only accept something what confirms it and dismiss everything that doesn’t, interpret the rest in your own way and ATTACK anyone who even tries to express the alternative opinion.
now THAT what I would call – the attempt for RECONCILIATION !
about “burden of evidence” – well, first of all, you’re SWITCHING THE SUBJECT here from your (and Portman’s) bias accusation of Nick here – to the PT / UDD ! and “for the sake of reconsiliation” you better stop employing such cheap tricks !
never mind, I’ll answer you.
UDD / PT – they do conduct their own investigations and they’ll present their evidences.
and till they do – you and all your buddies have to wait with your conclusions.
regarding your own blaming Nick for bias – sorry, it has nothing to do with UDD / PT – it is 100% totally YOUR OWN taks to provide the evidences to suppport your accusations. and don’t BS me here “oh, where are / why not any evidences from PT / UDD” !
be HONEST and don’t avoid the responsibility for your own words. and let UDD / PT take care of themselves. Nick also takes care of himself pretty well. I just merely reminded him that he doesn’t even have to do that – coz those who accuse must provide evidences, not the accused.
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Potman continues this charade. Why? Some in the military used real combat rounds, full metal jackets, not practice rounds. Portman speculates whereas the military commander states a fact.
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@Somsak Jeamteerasakul 142
exactly my thoughts !
I’d like to add here – Suchinda.
I mean, Thanom and others who were responsible for 6 Tula are dead now (yeah, Samak is alive still …).
but hey – Suchinda is well alive and thriving !
in fact – he is not only free and prosperous – he is even quite often been seen on TV “giving opinions” !
bloody mass-murderer is allowed to walk around free. he was not even punihsed in ANY way – like, say, sieze his assets or whatever. instead he is a boss of some lucrative business as I recall.
so, some may say – 6 Tula happened almost 40 years ago.
but Black May 1992 – not as long as that, less than 20 years ago.
alright, may be Black may is also too far away in the past.
what about Tak Bai – the favorite thing for Thaksin-bashers. WHY no ANY attempt is being made to prosecute those responsible? or “drug-war’ – another thing which Thaksin is blamed for? it would give a great opportunity for all the “hard-core” anti-Thaksin guys to glee IF there was indeed some investigation, court case and proper punishment – wouldn’t it be ? so, WHY then NOTHING is being done in this regard – it wasn’t so long aso as 6 Tula or Black May !
and especially it would be so easy and so desirable to convict Thaksin of yet another crime – right ?
WHY NOT anything done yet ?
so, IF we are talking about “reconciliation” – it would be a very good start to prosecute Suchinda and all others responsible, right ?
(there are also facts that Surayudh also was there, leading some special squad into hotel where injured people were …)
would we EVER see that happen ?
)
(a hint:
might it be coz many more heads will roll – as of army’s top brass ?
I bet – NOT while so called “Democrats” are in power, who’re trumpeting around the world their fairness and “pro-reconciliation” stance.
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A really (unsurprisingly) BIASED description of events by a guy who spend days with them (of course, with the more-decent red shirts with cooler head, I doubt if he’s ever been hanging out with those red shirts who throw motolovs without any threat from the soldiers).
However, I admire your various attempts to be fair and report the story from the other side of the picture.
As foreigners, You might find a translated-description of this famous video useful.
.
video witness – iReport to CNN on soldiers clash with protester in Din Dang at dawn
.
If you haven’t seen it already, you really really should. It’s a translation from the witness describing the important event captured on camera and photos from an eye-witness.
Read it, see it, and you’ll really be thinking with some aspects from the other side of the picture
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antipadshist #150 – you certainly have a charming way of writing and, if anything, I’d like to achieve ‘reconciliation’ with you.
Where we agree:
- On your “rural peasant” comments in #150, I totally agree with you and you can do a search of my 1-2 years worth of past comments on this blog.
- On crimes committed by the Thai State/military of the past comments on #152, I’ve made similar comments in the past – and again the evidences are in this blog.
Where we don’t agree:
- Let’s wait until PT/UDD – which I don’t trust to be frank, OR, even BETTER a fair-minded Red like Nick, who I trust – to produce those evidences of truck loads of poor, dead Red sacrificial lambs and that the government/military were “professional” in covering up the killings BEFORE ACCUSING ANYONE of COGNITIVE BIAS. Do keep an open mind as the bias may also be your own, antipadshist… This is only fair.
#149 “photojourn blog has a story about monk telling this – that he saw it himself. would monk lie ?”
Some monks are known to give wrong lottery numbers and/or predictions of the future – it that lying? Some monks are also known to sneak out to party, drink and womanize…
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Sidh #154
I am not at all surprised that you wouldn’t agree with those things. in fact – I was rather expecting that.
and actually that was my whole point : people like Portman (and I guess you too) demand “evidences”. then when / if evidences are presented – you would still reject them for some excuse as “I don’t trust them”.
well, then what the whole fuss is all about, which you and Partman are making here? do you want evidences or not? and which evidences you want? evidences by whom ? by Nick – he is a reporter, not a police or private detective.
you may or may not trust those evidences by PT/ UDD – it is irrelevent, it is your own problem !
but Parliament has appointed the group to investigate these allegations – and that implies that those who comprise this group ARE TRUSTED ENOUGH – otherwise they won’t be allowed to partake in the work of this group.
as for UDD – well, if they produce solid enough evidences, then certainly some motion will be to present those evidences to police and Parliament, as well as to public. and those to whom it will be presented will decide on the credibility of evidences.
sure, I have no doubt that there will be attempts to reject those evidences same as yu did – “I don’t believe them”, and efforts to prove those evidences wrong.
but for you to say “I don’t believe them” – this is a childish excuse. !
you’re not in position to pass the judgment – there are some authorities for that. there is a certain legal process and in the end of this process will be a judgement.
so, all I said was – you and Portman have to AT LEAST wait till then. meanwhile all your denials are useless.
another thing I said – that most likely even IF there are evidences and those evidences are excepted by authorities (which is very unlikely – taking into consideration such a GIANT effort to cover-up and then deny all those facts) – then you and Portman will still continue in one way or another admitting that you were wrong.
this is my guess.
so, let’s wait and see…
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@DanielCU #153
wow ! congradulations, dude – you have just “discovered America”, huh ?
CNN? now, that’s one MSM media outlet which certainly deserves trust!
especially by Abhisit’s own government and Thai Media – who has launched full scale officially declared “Media war” not so long ago – to counter-act exactly those very “foreign media” whom they accuse of being “Thaksin’s payees”. now suddenly CNN is being quoted as … supporting the government “official truth” version, huh ? 
Daniel,
this video (and many others) we’ve watched LONG before you have mentioned it here, and in Thai original version.
you may see it yourself that the “students” are recording it from VERY FAR AWAY ! there was a program on Thai VT channel NBT which interviewd Thai reporters who were there – and ALL of them said the SAME thing (which confirms the same point here) : ALL of them too were FAR AWAY from the main action ! the footages they played clearly shown that: they were only able to zoom-in to certain limit (with great disadvantage of distance and lack of proper ligh – that’s why probably amry chose to start their operation before the dawn, to have this advantage on their side of covering up the facts). one of those reporters said that at one point he was trying to get closer – and was stopped by …. GUN (or rifle) pointed at him by a soldier !
so, WHAT can you see from this video except some dots and flashes, Daniel ? do you even see faces or any more details ?
WHO are the attackers actually ? WHO “started first” ?
and even – WHO are those “students” ? (sure, on one of two other of their original videos can be seen even their faces briefly). WHY they didn’t come up and support the government’s “official truth” ? why they are not named as a real witnesses ?
now, that’s the ONLY what I can see as what is presented by pro-government supporters as “credible evidences” !
while they rant on and on about “Bias” of Nick and others who disagree with “official truth” and dismiss ANY attempts to present such evidences as “I don’t believe it”.
well, then THIS video deserves as much : “I don’t believe it” !
coz there is NO WAY to prove by this video that it was indeed UDD people who did that. and even if they did – that they didn’t retaliate AFTER the soldiers shot few of them first.
to be a CREDIBLE evidence – those “students” have to go to POLICE or authorites – not some sensationalist “Yellow journallists” (term NOT related to PAD actually
) as CNN to make a few bucks !
I mean, come on Daniel, frankly – do you honestly think that these “students” SOLD their amature POOR QUALITY video to a big foreign media because they “love the truth” ?
WHY then Thai gove. / police/ whoever concerned authroties do NOT use this video as sufficient evidence, and do not name the “students” who’s made it ?
last thing, about “other side of the pitcture” – Daniel, you’re trying to sound like it is rather UDD/ Red-shirts / Nick who are dominating the Media and censoring all the alternative opinion – rather than government and Thai MSM ! “other side” you say – other side of …. WHAT ? of …. OTHER SIDE of the MAIN SIDE = THE “main side” ?
hahahaha this is simply too funny !
“the other side” of the other side of the OFFICIAL side !
Daniel, be honest – WHAT other side ? the whole point of Nick’s story, whom you accuse of “bias” (due to your own confirmation bias) is – that THERE IS NO ANY OTHER SIDE, except the official version so rigorously propagated by government and Thai MSM !
this story by Nick – it IS the OTHER side, the ONLY other side – tiny and insignificant, and yet so furioulsy attacked by you and many others here.
“OTHER SIDE” – this is simply hillarious !
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In realtion to various comments, lets put this in layman’s terms: We suspect something has happened but we have no evidence but we believe it anyway. We also claim that no evidence has been produced to disprove the theory.
This is theological or faith based belief and not fact pure and simple. Obviously Bush and Rove had a laregr and longer lasting effect than I had previously believed to be the case. We usually wait until something is proven to be true based at least on a preponderance of evidence before accepting it.
Fact is dead. Long live belief!
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antipadshist #155 turning up the charm! With all those winks I am blushing already.
And good news – more grounds for our RECONCILLIATION:
On #155 WE AGREE – lets wait for conclusive evidences first before BEFORE ACCUSING ANYONE of “COGNITIVE BIAS” as it could easily be you who is biased!
Let’s not twist words around too there’s a huge difference between “trust” and “believe” – reread my post #154 I don’t TRUST PT, UDD, I TRUST Nick. Where did this “I don’t believe come from” – your own cognitive bias???
On #156 “WHO are the attackers actually ? WHO “started first” ?”
Since when is blocking of Dindaeng intersection LEGAL??? I smell cognitive bias??? Anyone smell this too???
If PT, UDD, DTV and PMThaksin are the only trustworthy sources in the world, MONOPOLIZERS OF TRUTH it stinks of cognitive bias… You reckon?
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“DanielCU”
Of course i also have “been hanging out with those red shirts who throw motolovs”. How do you think i can take photos of them? Via a robotic camera that flies a kilometer in front of me so i don’t need to mix with the ordinary folks while chitchatting with the leaders?
I have written what i have seen, and not what i haven not seen (unless confirmed to me by trusted and proven sources, which i have also pointed out). I think i made that clear at the beginning of my report, and that it possibly cannot be a complete report.
But thanks for recognizing my efforts to be fair. Fairness is the only objectivity we can possibly reach.
Generally speaking though, I am very tired of the constant accusation of being biased by people (and some colleagues as well) who i do not see working on the ground in either camp. I have sympathies with the ordinary Red Shirt supporters, and many of their complaints that they cannot voice at the election booths anymore. That does not mean that i am “biased”. Please read the definitions of “bias” and “sympathy” in any dictionary, and see the difference.
I go and work in both camps, on the ground, as any journalist who works this story should do (and some of the complaints of the Yellow Shirts i am sympathetic towards as well). And to be clear – i am an accredited journalist in Thailand, i have a press card issued by the Department of Public Relations. Whenever i work in the protests, my press card is visible to anybody.
I have included more than a few points that are critical to the Red Shirts. But these are events that i have seen in person, on the ground, and not events based on second and third hand information.
I am still in the process trying to collect further information on the events, but that information comes from trustworthy sources, also from within the military and other security agencies, and not just from newspapers that have already misreported events that i have seen very different on the ground. Of course these sources are, and will stay confidential.
So far, the information i have collected after posting my report does not change the timeline, or my interpretation of the events, but completes it in certain details that i have not seen in person.
I stand by what i wrote here. Anyone is free to disagree, but then please present clear proof where i was wrong, and i will of curse consider and investigate it.
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@ nobody, c.157
i’m glad u’re lucky among us to choose a name, wisely
“Fact is dead. Long live belief!”
i would not even call it “belief”, as in “faith”. i’d call it self-indulgence in “these movements that appear in mind”.
once, we believed in academia — as posts of jim taylor & others show, obviously academia has been corrupted. well, lots of examples, anyhow
once, we believed in “critical discourse” — it seems today everybody with access to internet just collects & cites “sources” or “evidence” for some more bricks in her/his “wall” of “personal point of view”
once, we believed in a “scientific approach” — nowadays… it seems people prefer to seek shelter in cosy “we’re same same” reality-substratae
*…
i have not commented on Nick Nostiz’ report. is it necessary that everybody utters opinion on everything? many contributors offered genuine respect — even if it was “critical”, what’s bad ab that?
i liked it. that does not imply i take it at face-value. i guess, more than one journalist, has experienced that even honest coverage of actual events… does necessarily imply… that you got it right. on-the-street journalism comes with benefit of actuality. otoh, it’s analysis that tries to bring events into “perspective”.
to make point clear: anybody out there who want to say that us-army media-strategy of so-called “embedded journalists” is an attempt… to show “the truth”?
journalists are individuals. we all are. & we all are limited, by heritage culture age what-ever, aren’t we?
there’s no doubt Nick Nostiz is “biased”. it’s obvious. for me, personally, there’s nothing wrong about that. i don’t know that many people who are _NOT_ biased.
*…
ab Portman:
it may be i got it completely wrong. but, imho, readers of nm should be grateful he offered his comments on weapons. i do say that… as of today i couldn’t find comparable insight not even among so-called (public) “intelligence sources”.
if i’m allowed to say… i think it’s sad to see… that by now, 3 weeks after “black songkran”, some people, still, are not willing to distinguish between a strictly “military” sop & “political” “authority/responsibility”.
to make point clear: it wasn’t dismissed that some military staff might have used lethal ammunition. as far as i understand Portman’s argumentation is quite simple: that any “assumed” general (political, military) authorisation of lethal ammunition _SHOULD_ have resulted in a higher number of casualities.
& thus, question results: where are the bodies?
now people here & elsewhere have shown effort to provide _”LINKS”_ to photos, videos, etc — as if _that_ in itself would proof anything.
they even say, “WE SAW IT”. where? well, there’s this video & that photo & here’s an audio in a language i don’t know etc etc etc
how is it possible that _anyone_ can claim to be a “witness” by referring to unvalidated media-sources?
yes, some media-material is disturbing. & i’m glad thailand with pm abhisit has agreed to setup panels for investigation.
nonetheless, personally, i think it’s _much more_ “disturbing” that people actually assume an intent to mass-killings. & worse, that they’re “eager” to “show” (_not_ “proof”) it as “truth”. & even worse, obviously, no call for reason matters.
this is going on now since 3 weeks. i haven’t seen any evidence that can be substantiated. not even puea thai during parliamentary debate was able to provide substantial evidence.
since 3 weeks now claims come up in public arenas insinuating this plot or that, this chain of causation or another. in classical terms it’s “disinformation” — as, i guess many of us will know; it takes a lot of time, effort & research to debunk some weird claim. whereas it’s so easy to spread weird claims, nowadays, isn’t it?
i’m sorry, for a comment it’s quite long. thx for ur time to read it na.
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tettyan #141
I agree with your assertion that “there is a hierarchy of factors, some of which are more important than others” if Thailand is to emulate the democratic models of the nations you suggest. What I disagree with is which prerequisites you attach the greater importance too. The rule of law must be the first prerequisite. Without it there can be no “relatively fair election outcomes”. This isn’t a righteous point of principle, it is purely practical truth. If the government indulges in criminality there is no obligation for the populous to recognize the legitimacy of the government. Indifference towards, or even support for the military coup from a very large section of the population empowered and enabled the military intervention. Had there been an overwhelming consensus that the ‘rule of law’ was being clearly and fairly applied (as is the case in the UK, US, Australia, etc.) any coup attempt would have been doomed before it even began. Surely the brazen criminality of the Thaksin regime was also the primary factor fueling the PAD leadership’s ridiculous ‘new politics’ ideas? The same perception that the rule of law is absent, or is applied partially, that is so angering the red-shirts was equally angering to those who opposed the TRT regime. People the world over overwhelming cherish their democratic rights, and become understandably very angry when they feel it they have been corrupted or stolen from them.
“The second is a constitution that is a social contract among the people based on national-consensus, not some draft put together in a dark room by the army’s hand-picked men.” I agree wholeheartedly, in fact this is an integral part of the first prerequisite in my view.
Free and fair elections should immediately follow implementation of a constitution agreeable to all sides. To hold elections prior to any such agreement would surely be pointless as the losers would cry foul and the cycle of instability (and probably violence) would begin afresh.
The beleaguered Abhisit is the only player in this appalling mess who has consistently called for the rule of law, an all party constitutional reform process, and observance of human rights. With the PAD threatening to take to the streets once more, and the military snuggling up in bed with Newin. Can Abhisit’s statements not be taken at face value? Wouldn’t cautious support for his stated position (whilst remaining heavily critical of all non-democratic actors) be a more ‘just’ position than to support an bloodthirsty extreme right movement which, despite wishful thinking to the contrary, is still dominated by its support for a very dangerous criminal?
This discussion has been very interesting and thought provoking, thank you for your insight. I regret that I won’t be able to continue the discussion further, I really wish I could, but with a struggling small business and a young family to support I really can’t justify the time. I will make a little time however to write a letter to Kasit Piromya and Chavarat Charnvirakul to protest the forced repatriation of this family-
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/ASA39/004/2009/en
Perhaps others may wish to do likewise.
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Mungo Gubbins
“The beleaguered Abhisit is the only player in this appalling mess who has consistently called for the rule of law”
Calling for and actually doing something about it is two different thing. If he has taken at least some action with regards to the PAD – other than to appoint one of them a Minister – his call for “rule of law” would have carried far more weight with this reader. As it is, it is simply political talk, lip service blah blah blah
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The rule of law must be the first prerequisite. Without it there can be no “relatively fair election outcomes”.
Fair enough, but who does more violence to the rule of law? Those who engage in summary executions, which by the way has a long tradition in Thailand pre-Thaksin (not that that excuses him)? Or those who overthrow constitutions – the highest order legal norm in a liberal democracy – through military coups? Sure Thaksin violated many laws and often mocked the constitution, while the military (with the complicity of the PAD) were the ones who ultimately ripped it to shreds. There’s no grounds for being self-righteous about Thaksin if you were one of his hard-core opponents who supported military intervention (explicitly or tacitly).
The beleaguered Abhisit is the only player in this appalling mess who has consistently called for the rule of law, an all party constitutional reform process, and observance of human rights.
I’m seeing a pattern emerge with Abhisit. He has the habit of saying all the right things (he did a fine job with the FT interview) without showing any signs that he’s actually following through. When he first came to office, he said national reconciliation would be his first priority. He then let the insurrection charges against the PAD leaders languish on the back-burner until after the red uprising, when he promised again that he would push those cases forward (and I still have haven’t seen any progress on that front). We all saw what happened to the Rohingya. And enforcement of lese majeste laws have only gotten more aggressive on his watch. Now, it might be that he actually doesn’t have much power to change much in any of these areas. But even if he did, at the end of his day, they’re far from his top priority. So long as he just keeps saying the right things to placate foreign journalists and diplomats …
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DanielCU #153
Just a quick comment on your video link and news footage and pictures in general.
Very good pictures and video force you to ask a question. That’s the nature of journalistic photography. When you look at a picture ask yourself what the picture is conveying and what’s happening in the background. Go up and look at Nicks pic nn-17s. Look in the background that gives you a good feeling of the situation at that point in time.
Your video link screams to me. It screams where is the rest of the video that abruptly stops at a volley of gunfire. It asks the questions what happened next? Why it was stopped? Was anyone shot? What happened in the early morning? and a thousand other questions. It’s not the footage that we look at it’s the footage we do not have that begs to ask the questions.
Just like Nick’s picture of the bus (nn-59s) answers the question of live rounds for us. Yes they were used and no they were not all fired into the air. nn-33s & nn-34s tell us that the blue shirts were condoned by, if not part of, the security plan at Asean. You just have to look at the pictures.
Maybe, like in the past, the bodies just disappeared and maybe there were not any, but denials about the usage of the bullets and the Blue shirts must have us ask the question and investigate further.
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Hi,
@AntiPADShist #156
Um… that antipad or something… I’m not following you in many points eg. what’s an ‘official truth’? a truth is a truth. It’s a truth that (from Nick’s photo) a soldier dragged/escorted an injured old protester. And that’s as true as a crowd of people wearing red shirts in Din Deang throw motolovs and drove Taxis into the soldiers without prior threat of violent seen in the video.
Also, it is notable to mentioned that I only believe in what my eyes see, not ‘stories or events’ told by other people (but I can give a few exceptions to credible sources with photo support like Nick) because I’ve read so many ‘stories’ from the protesters saying 10, 50 or even 100 unarmed, peaceful people are shot dead and drag away ‘mysteriously’.
so let me answer you paragraph by paragraph….
Nope I pointed out that it was an English translation (you gotta read it) of the description of the event recorded by the witness. They said it in their blogs while publishing this evidence.
So… you’re saying CNN is heavily biased against the protesters to make them look bad, and has a conspiracy with the Thai government. Okie Dokie. No further question. (Meaning, DStation, is of course the only reliable news report and the only report you believe) And I assume BBC must be even more biased since they give Thaksin a really tougher interview. Nicks current report is unbiases, but when he submit it to his employer, if got publish, it suddenly became biases becuase it became mainstream media and all mainstream media is biased. Nice.
That’s my point. Many foreigners here (I assumed) don’t understand Thai so I’m bringing up the English version. Read.
Yep, and that’s exactly the thing that made this video famous! It was far away from a bird’s eye view, so viewer can get the whole picture of the area and almost all the action going on, from both sides the same time. Other professional or amateur video clips are shot from ground level, and thus lack this dept of information.
Yep! In other posts, they says there’s a protester saying the soldiers are using weapons of mass destruction against them (well, not really but you get the point.) The point is, this is one of the hunreds unsourced uncited no-single-piece-of-evidence claims made by the protesters and their leaders.
For this Din Daeng event, I read from transcript that the leaders announce on stage describing the incident “we were only gathering food supplies. There were many women among us…. when the troops approach, we shouted ‘don’t shoot, we’re unarmed’. ….Soon, there’s a lot of smoke, and there are shots being fired at us…. We scattered and ran away… There’re many of us shot and injured.. many are dead…” yada yada yada. (I admit I can’t find a reliable source, like an audio record, to back this up either. But if you ever hear their other announcement on stage, you’ll know this style of story is what they always say.)
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(BTW. I can’t post continueing comments… It won’t show.)
@ Nick Nostitz # 159
TO NICK:
Firstly, I’m really sorry for previously beginning my comments with the word biased in bold capital letters. You don’t deserve an attack like that, it came partly from emotions i guess.
)
But I still wish to clarify why I feels that way. Let’s look at them not as attacks, but as constructive criticism.
(the bolds and all-caps are just emphasis; it’s not yelling!
1. While you elaborately describe on how the soldiers open fire, you never took time to describe most of the time the red shirts commit violence For example, we’ve seen salvos of attacks on PM’s car, and seen video of aggressive ones hiting/stroking long poles inside Nipon Prombhand’s car while he was stucked there, and you simply said all of those in one word: he was attacked.
2. You labeld every Bangkok residence who stood up against the redshirts as PAD or resident/PAD. THAT’S REALLY UNFAIR for some residents who just tried to protect their properties, and others who felt being terrorized. (Even teen slum dwellers are PAD!) People who seen their hometown raided (apparent in Pethburi road) are pissed, and they are not PAD. This made it worse when many of your source are from the red shirts. I mean… oh common! You must know the redshirt are so quick to called anyone who starts violence against them as PAD, as propagandized by their leaders. You ‘intelligence officer’ on the other hand, is a police. And you must see first-handed that the police did NOTHING to peacefully stop or restrain the redshirts from committing violence as reported by Nang Lerng residents and Sathorn-traffic-block video clip, and that’s because most police officers sided with the UDD (you must have known this as well.)
(And, in my opinion, that’s why the soldiers have to came out. (and all of you cited double standard. It’s also double standard when the police quells PADs with deadly tear gases, while doing virtually nothing to stop the red shirts rioting) The police prove before (in Pattaya) and again later in Bangkok that they aren’t willing to restrain any violence by the UDD because they’re sided with them. (most lower-rank police are from the provincial area.) If the army hasn’t made is move, despite not being trained to quelled protest, what do you think will happen? The reds will be wandering around town pillaging, vandalizing, causing havoc in the street of the capital and attacking anyone who wears yellow for the whole week.
3. You wrote about the Asean summit like a walk in the park, yet you never mention the following effects caused by the invasion how driving away 10s of National leader would effect the credibility of the country.
(Oh, i forgot, it’s not your country. Why would you care. All you cared is that the poor is always right.)<— I’m sorry… I got carried away there….I know your job is photojournalist, but it’s just that you should mention these aspects too.
Also, your attitude phrased the event like “they’re searching for Abhisit. In general, the protesters were noisy, but very well behaved” Can you imaged if they would still be well-behaved if they find Abhisit?
4. Many many of your statements starts with ‘the red shirt says’ which you know well they’re being propagandized from their leaders, and you know how they are and that strategy they’re using.
5. You must know (later on) but didn’t even mentioned many parts of the whole incident which include the more appalling cases where the red shirts DEMONIZED THEMSELVES such as the threaten to blow up gask tanker, vandalizing at Petchburi road, shooting at Nang Lerng. Yet you conclude the story like this is all there is to it, and says the red shirts are innocently crushed. You sound like they’re exising their right in democracy peacefully and democraticly but was brutally crushed by the evil junta’s soldiers.
. 5.5 I see you’ve mention that this report is incomplete. But, imagine you’re a viewer, and you read the chronological list of events, ended by the being-crushed conclusion. How can the readers not feels that all the hilights of the event is already mentioned? (it’s like advertisements with condition in small prints in the bottom.) So, please update the report to include all major events soon.
6. Just comment:Reading your articles and many red-shirt forums have portrayed me a better image of the front lines. And you, too, should occasionally put down the poor-people-is-always-right glass and look at things from other prospective as well. <— Well.. in a less serious and non-offending way… Sorry if it offends you.
Best regards,
Daniel
PS. About me, I’m a white shirt who don’t like Thaksin. And like most other white shirts who now sees that the red shirt is as , if not more, devastating than the yellow shirts.
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@AntiPADShist #156
No. They didn’t sell it. They just submit it to CNN. and Yes, it’s amature and poor quality because they’re just boys with amature camera that got caugth in the act. They just post it because it’s easy and they was angry at what they witness, and wants to distribute what they saw.
They did. See the government’s compilation at
Event Face report, video clips.
It was featured somewhere in the middle of the official clip.
The narration is biased, but videos recorded don’t lie.
As mention, when I say I don’t believe, I meant I don’t believe when redshirts leaders says 50 people are killed and dragged away (but never captured by a single foreign journalist or amateur cameramen (people with camera phone) flocking every scene ), and don’t believe when protesters says “those people at Petchburi/Nang Lerng that attacked us are PAD! They’re heavily armed!”
But when you says you don’t believe, you certainly means that
this video and the other 2 and 30 more pictures of the scene must be a computer-generated imagery edited on shots that the soldier-disguised-as-students infiltrate CMMU building and shots the footage with PAD disguised as protesters fakingly throw motolovs and rammed a car into a stuntman. All shots and edits are done within 12 hours to post online by the same day, on to a fake manga blog that was created since 2005 solely to support this video in April 2009 and makes it looks legitimately from a student manga enthusiast. Yep! That must be it! I don’t believe it! (see the last paragraphs below if this is not the case)
(Note to self: what am I doing? I’m wasting hours justifying points that only morons would question, while everybody else knows that that was goin on alright.)
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@AntiPADShist #156
Ok Lastly, (this is the only issue that bothers me)
OMG!!! (First the second point, no shots was fired and heard, until after they rammed a cab into the soldiers line and began closing on the line)
And to the first point OMG (again)!!!!
I came here to seek reasonable point of view and discussion, away from those moron answers at Pantip Rachdamnern board when they’re explaining the events that happen.
Let me tell you. I, and many people there believes that most protesters (especially those at the government house) comes peacefully with good intent. Those voices should be respected. But, again, there are a lot of ‘front line’ reds that either act violently out of control, or was planned to be intentionally violent by the leaders to provoke authorithies in order to gain a ‘good rightous stance’ after they’re violently retaliated causing many apparent deaths (which doesn’t happen.)
So, when red shirts supporters came and say they still believe in their cause, but was sorry that many red shirts have cause violence and that they never agree with using violent, people will generally feel some sympathy for them, and grant some forgiveness.
But there’s other replies from red shirts like … you!!! which was more prominent.
Videos could be too low resolution, but supplement photos from that blog couldn’t be more clear that the people wearing red shirts, aka redshirt protesters, in Din Dang area at 4AM were violently attacking the soldiers with motolovs, and ramming a thick line of soldiers with taxi while the soldiers just formed line and watched. Not a shot was fired until the protesters cause the situation to be out of control when they fired mostly into the sky. (meaning not ruling out the possibility that some shots may be horizontal.)
.
YET, you protesters are ranting
“No no noooo. The ones who throws bombs at soldiers first are just a PAD/soldiers in disguest/bangkok citizens/third hand. That guy ramming the taxi, too. That’s not one of us. Most the guys around there aren’t the real red shirts as well.”
When the soldiers open fire, that guy that just threw the motolov and got injured automatically became a genuine red shirt protester! All those guys there ducking bullets, too! That’s UDD supporter! and you say “Helpppp! Helppp the peaceful UDD is under attack! We didn’t do anyting”
“The guy that did the violence it was a third hand! and he disappear now! the solders are now shooting at us! Help!
Those kinds of reasoning is the most irresponsible irritating annoying disturbing excuse I’ve ever seen!
This perfectly represents a typical red shirt protester!
All things violent are commit by a third hand, while retaliation are done upon a poor and unarmed UDD red-shirt protester!
.
PS1. Common Nick, after all you’ve done, even you gotta be pissed by these kind of action!)
PS2. Uhhh.. I’ve just spend hours talking sense and reasons into a man who apparently doesn’t have any to begin with. I don’t think I have the time to continue it anymore.
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@Marty 164
Thanks for your insightful discussions and questions.
When they open fire, the students ducked for cover because they believe the soldiers fire upward into the air hence the end of the clip.
After the firing stop, there’s 2 more clips. Students says second one is about 5 minutes after the first. But you don’t see much action/violence in the later two. Links availiable from the first video’s youtube page, in related video.
(many details to your questions are in the english translation)
The students also took 30+ pictures after the first clip’s event.
About the persons shot, they says they saw 1 person lying on the ground, after the first shooting alive (see him moving).
They didn’t see any strain of blood or liquid on the ground, but saw liquid or strain under the bus (presumably rammed) at the soldier’s position. They aren’t sure if it’s blood or lubricant or what.
(to be cont.)
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I’ve not noticed much (any?) support among the New Mandala comments for the Manager/Sondhi/Nation/Thanong proposition that a Third Hand-Anupong-et al coup attempt was behind much of the recent violence, so maybe this question is misdirected.
But since that theory suggests, among other things, that the nefarious plan of this Third Hand began with the Pattaya confrontation, and extended through to attacks on Abhisit’s car and the shooting of Sondhi — wouldn’t logic strongly suggest that the most dramatic other excesses attributed to the Red Shirts – the burning of the buses, the hijackings of the gas trucks, the mayhem in some areas – were actually the work of the Third Hand?
Has anyone – such as Thanong – addressed this? It strikes me that you would have to be a pretty principled conspiracy theorist to do so, and I’m not sure such a creature exists.
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DanielCU #167
So, “They just post it because it’s easy and they was angry at what they witness, and wants to distribute what they saw.”.
Yup that would account for why they chopped the posted the film short. It’s a biased, you can bold capitalize that if you want, video and tells you nothing but one side. Nothing more. If they showed the whole film with the street littered with bodies they would be in the dump truck or floating in the river with the others, wouldn’t they? If there was nothing on the missing piece of video showing any mistreatment or killings of the protesters then they could have easily shown that and demonized the reds even more. I still say the missing film is hiding something much more sinister.
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One thing that seems to get little coverage when considering the claims of shot to death protestors on Songkhran day concerns ratios of dead to wounded. Anyone who has been involved in combat or even an avid military historian will know that for every person shot dead in combat there are many more wounded and that most of these wounded will be walking wounded meaning they can still walk or even run away and dont need assistance.
If we look at the number of injured in hospitals it seems to be around a hundred or so and we have only heard of a number of these receiving bullet injuries. That would imply if there any dead the number would be extremely small unless one can conjecture that in this divided country where everything leaks that the hospital workers are part of a huge conspiracy, which seems ridiuclous. Firing in the air we all witnessed and it seems a lot of this may well have been live ammo. There will almost certainly be some bullet injuries from this. It is not even unheard of for people to get injured and on occasion even killed at weddings in Iraq or at Hezbollah parades when firing in the air occurs.
There are other aspects, that as much of the incident was covered onlive TV with reporters both local and international basically moving with the troops any clean up operation would have been of an incredible order of efficiency. Considering the day before the military had lost control of some of its APCs this would have been a remarkable turn around.
I think we all accept by now that live rounds and blanks were issued. The evidence of bullet holes seems to be mostly in buses.Now as we saw live these being driven straight at soldiers we can probably assume that any soldier with live rounds faced with this kind of event would have quite likely emptied an entire clip on auto into the approaching bus. I probably would have myself in a similar situation.
Another aspect of firing direct is there should as in 1992 be a considerable amount of pock marking of buildings. I havent heard much on this to date tbh.
Considering each of these things, particularly the wounded issue, I think most people would conclude that either nobody as caimed was killed or that the number was very very low. We should also be aware that a mass politcal party and a mass movement with stronglinks to the national police force have been looking for evidence to the contrary for several weeks now and not found anything conclusive and trustworthy. How likely is it that they now will?
I appreciate many in and outside the red movement genuinely believed it to be a peaceful pro-democracy movement that was going to achieve positive changes for the country. I also appreciate the shock that the violence must have caused these people. However, now surely is time to move on and get away from denial that starts to sound more bizarre by the day. The alliance of convenience between genuine democracy minded people and forces allied to a power clique that has always been quick to resort to violence and intimidation has been shown to be a strategically flawed alliance. That however, should not stop those who genuinely want to promote democracy in the red movement from moving away from those purely interested in self gain. There is still lots of work to be done to improve Thailand’s democracy and to check the current abuses but undermining the cause with an unholy alliance isnt going to further anything at all for most people.
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“DanielCU”:
1) As to the incident with Niphon’s car – i believe that i have expressed clearly that i found the attack by overzealous Red Shirts disgusting, and at the time have even physically pushed some of them back, which in such an agitated crowd is very risky. There were though cooler headed Red Shirt guards present as well, who have formed a circle around his car, and protected him, and finally, when the crowd was under control, have brought him to hospital.
2) the time line of the Petchaburi incident was such that the Red Shirts were shot at first (confirmed by a source in the military as well).
As to my sources within the intelligence community – they deal with facts, and not according to personal agenda, and most of them have worked all protests. I have known them for a long time. I always bounce critical information about certain events from Red Shirt sources with more neutral sources before i come to conclusions. Therefore you will not see me making statements of “third hands” having burned buses, etc. I do not find these claims believable until i get confirmation. So far, i have not gotten confirmation of these claims. I have always stated, also in previous articles, that all protest groups have a potential for extreme violence, and in many cases inflicted such as well.
During the Songkran riots police was completely kept out of the loop. They were not informed about anything, i have not seen them positioned anywhere else than around the Metropolitan Police Headquarters. You cannot blame them for not having done anything. The question to ask though is why have hours of fighting between Red Shirts and local residents (who are known to have strong PAD affiliations) in the evening and night been allowed to take place by the military and the government. Why did the military, who oversaw and performed the crackdown solely, not go in between?
3) In Pattaya as well, from what i have seen, police had a token presence, but the military led the operations. Here i wonder why you do ignore the point of the Blue Shirts, and their attacks against Red Shirts, for me the key factor why the up till then mostly peaceful protests went so out of hand. Without the actions of the Blue Shirts there would not have been the invasion into the Royal Cliff, after which the emergency decree resulted, after which the arrest of Arisaman followed, etc.
Suthep stated that the Blue Shirts were only local residents who supported the government. This is a false statement. Why is the government so sluggish on answering any questions regarding the Blue Shirts? Why is the Thai media not investigating the Blue Shirts properly? My photos here show how Blue Shirts and military have cooperated. Were the Blue Shirts a plan that backfired, or where the actions of the Blue Shirts a deliberate plan to turn the up till then mostly peaceful protests into a riot? These are issues that should be pointed out, and investigated.
But strangely things are very quiet around the Blue Shirts. We only have very strong evidence that Newin was involved (and from his history we know that plans like this are very much up his alley), but Newin alone could not possibly have ordered security forces to work with the Blue Shirts, especially because more than a few military officers did not like the placing of the Blue Shirts (as was confirmed to me in private conversations). Given the chain of command, Suthep – the deputy prime minister responsible for internal security – must have been involved as well. If not, the Thai state is in more dire straights than we can possibly imagine, because then some unknown individuals can make top-level decisions without top-level people being informed.
The hotel invasion, i am sorry to say, was a very bizarre walk in the park. It was not more than 30 minutes. Nobody was attacked, Thai officials, foreign delegates, tourists, journalists, security forces – not one person was harmed intentionally. I saw one young soldier who was slightly injured by the glas window (and so were one or the other protester), and one young soldier who fainted from exhaustion in the unbearable heat, and was even helped by Red Shirts. And the Red Shirts left by themselves, they were not pushed out. “Credibility of the country” – sorry, but that is for other people to decide, not for me. My diplomatically unprofessional view is that it might have been better that instead of calling the emergency decree, the situation could have/should have been defused with humor. It was an extraordinary situation, and maybe some extraordinary measure should have been taken, instead of further escalating the mess.
I also am of the opinion that the government would have been justified to use water throwers and teargas when the Red Shirts approached, as we see nowadays in most summits in western countries. But there is no legal justification to set these Blue Shirts up against Red Shirts. But contrary to Abhsit’s claims of due process of the law, the Blue Shirts were there, and have collaborated with the security forces.
4) Ordinary Red Shirts are also people who do think, and have their own views based on their own experience of life. Simply dismissing them as “Propagandized by their leaders” is an elite based argumentation that i do not follow, and patronizes these people as mindless tools.
5) and 6) The escalation into the violence on the 13th was a chain event of action and reaction. That is the reason why i began this post with the 26th, and did not start with Pattaya or the crackdown. I have pointed out in my report that i had a very bad feeling when the Red Shirt leadership announced their indefinite protest at Government House, and when they decided to call D-Day and marched en masse to Si Sao Thewet.
However, from the chain of events i also believe that the government has done everything to let the situation escalate, most blatant is the decision to let the Blue Shirts appear in Pattaya.
There is a lot of mystery around the morning attack at Din Daeng. I believe we will never completely solve what happened there – too many rumors, and not enough hard evidence that confirms either side’s argument. Call it “the fog of war”, or whatever. It is clear that the Red Shirts there were not completely innocent, but without exposing sources – several military officers i have spoken with are more than slightly uneasy what may or may not have occurred there, and are also looking for answers, at least in private. I do not think that there was a purposely planned massacre, but there are strong possibilities that things simply went out of hand.
The question here is not if one is a white shirt (set up by the government in the old tradition to create a superficial picture), or yellow, or red (both are still existing). Or who is the biggest demon. The question is how Thailand can progress. There is no “unity” of all Thais, and there never will be. This is a highly ideological view ignoring reality. What must come here is a social contract that differing views should be accepted, are necessary for progress, but have to be solved within the democratic framework (note: emphasis is given on democratic!).
Demonizing Red Shirts is no solution, especially when one’s own grave mistakes are ignored. Mistakes such as the Democrat’s deep involvement with the Yellow Shirts last year, mistakes such as the Blue Shirts. ASTV was as much used for rabble rousing (and still is) as D-TV – yet ASTV was never touched, and D-TV was closed.
The government gives more than enough reason for the Red Shirt’s perception of double standards, unfortunately. And so i fear that the tragedy will continue into its next round.
As to an update, so far i do not think that an update to this post is necessary yet (a more complete picture i will give at a later time, but i would suggest just to wait and see). The other “highlights” (for me they were all lowlights, like the whole affair) have been described by others, and do not change my view on the whole event beginning from the 26th. I have already made clear that things were out of control by the time these events happened, and pointed out some events where Red Shirt protesters made very wrong calls, such as the incident at the interior ministry, or the chasing of the firefighters (and the gastanker issue is to be included there).
Much depends now, of course, how the Red Shirts and the other factions will proceed in the future, but that we will only know when things happened. I won’t speculate here on what may happen. I will continue following the events as much as i can, as long as i can stay relatively safe.
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Nick #173,
Your few last posts beginning with wherein you challenge your doubters to provide counter-evidence have been incredible.
I really did like your report, a lot in fact. I’ve been sending a lot of my friends and people I know to view this site.
Especially post #173 where you have pointed the obvious and sad double-standards made by this government in their persecutions of ‘yellow’ and ‘red’ shirts. As well as the more obvious clampdown on the ‘Red’ media while leaving ASTV and the remainder untouched.
There is one question whose answer (if you have sources) that should be answered. In another post a “Jim Taylor” stated factually that the ‘blue shirts’ were behind the parking of the gas tanks and driving the buses into the soldiers. While this is plausible, is there any evidence that you know from your experience that it is in fact ‘true’. During the height of the crisis, where you were (not just at Din Daeng), did any “red shirts” tell you this, or even bring this supposition to you?
I ask because I had only one source who was actually there at the red shirt protest (and whose name I didn’t keep), I have no way of countering or collaborating Jim’s theory, sorry ‘factual events of what happened’. But as you have been there (and I can get in touch with you through here), I just thought I’d ask.
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Nick Nostziz, (#173) I have avoided putting in my meagre 2 cents worth on this post, but have been following all the comments, with great interest.
The “hysteria” being voiced by some of the posters on this and some of the related topics on NM, does not seem very productive, to me.
I feel some of the posters are becoming so immersed in the “propaganda” war, they are losing sight of the issues.
To your credit, you have tried to maintain your stance without resorting to the gross distortions, which appear to be coming from some of the other voices – on all sides (there are more than 2 sides, I think we all agree on that).
I respect your comment in an earlier posting where, whilst not exactly “taking sides”, you do make your “sympathies” quite openly known.
You have also attempted to answer your critics, with what to me appear to be quite rational points – particularly for someone who one could easily call you, an “imbedded” reporter(even if not officially recognized as such).
I have often not agreed with your comments, but I do agree with your last paragraph :
“Much depends now, of course, how the Red Shirts and the other factions will proceed in the future, but that we will only know when things happened. I won’t speculate here on what may happen. I will continue following the events as much as i can, as long as i can stay relatively safe.”
Please keep your pledge and remain objective (as much as you can).
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@DanielCU #168 (and previous)
OMG – is what I consider moronic here
coz as I said – from this video you can’t see ANYTHING except the dark DOTS on the dark screen – not even faces, not even “color” of t-shirts (or whatever they are dresssed int).
that’s why police and government did not and can not possibly use it as ANY evidence – even though they might play it for some reference, nothing else.
they can’t even use these students as a credible witnesses – since they were so far away. if they could – they would. but they know very well, that these students can’t provide any other more credible information than this video – because they themselve DID NOT see anything else, any FACES etc.
so, Daniel – even government and police are obviously smarter than you are !
“But there’s other replies from red shirts like … you!!! which was more prominent. … ”
…
Those kinds of reasoning is the most irresponsible irritating annoying disturbing excuse I’ve ever seen! …
….
Those kinds of reasoning is the most irresponsible irritating annoying disturbing excuse I’ve ever seen! …
this is what I call MORONIC , coz you assume too much – like me being a protester or a red-shirt.
sorry to dissapoint you – I’m neither a protester nor a red (or any other color) shirt. yeah, I have many-colored T-shirts though.
REASONING ?
what any other reasoning is needed here? I said the truth and stand by it: on this video can’t see anything else than black DOTS – no any faces, no other details to prove who did what and when.
therefore – any attempt to prove anything by this video is simply ridiculous. because DOTS – are not faces or persons. these DOTS can be anybody. seeing DOTS is not sufficient amount of information to make any conclusions.
sure, it can be surmised who / where the army / protesters were – the position of the clashing sides. but it is not sufficient to surmise – WHO those supposed “red-shirts” (or other color shirts ?) were ?
DO YOU SEE ANY COLOR there in this video – except some brownish poor light with black spots, dots and patches ?
this is very simple reasoning. and if “OMG” is your only reaction to such reasoning – well, then it shows pretty much who is moronic here, doesn’t it?
because “OMG” is just an expletive – it can’t be considered as a serious argument.
so, I agree with what you said : it is a waste of time to argue …. with you ! so, from now on I’ll simply ignore you and skip your comments as moronic.
Cheers, adios !
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“Dickie Simpkins”:
I honestly don’t know if these buses have been driven there by agent provocateurs, or the gas tanker placed at Din Daeng apartments.
Usually it is my experience that, lacking evidence of the contrary, the simplest explanation is the one coming closest to the truth. And in this case i so far believe that it is a case of protesters having been very angry, and just lost control. Human nature.
In my youth i have taken part in many violent protests in Germany, and it was normal that cars were set ablaze by protesters. Don’t get me wrong – i do not condone this, it was just the way things were at the time in Germany, and i am not proud that i have taken part in these protests then. I was very young and stupid, and it was fun at the time, but i have not thought about the consequences.
But on the other hand, maybe because of my experiences i do not see the burned buses as a major issue (the gas tanker could have become one, but fortunately that was averted). This is just the way things are when protests get out of hand.
I will try to follow up the issue though, i have read Jim Taylor’s post. i will ask people who are experienced, and whose judgments i respect. I do not know who Jim’s sources are. Things like this are of course possible, and that the Blue Shirts have been used in Pattaya as agent provocateurs is clear.
I personally don’t think that it is likely that these blue shirts in red shirt disguise have driven up those buses because the Red Shirts do know each other from the many protests. But who knows. Strange things happen at times, and much of these conflicts are very murky indeed, and concrete evidence is more than hard to come by.
There is a lot more i could write, but i do not have sufficient evidence or proof, but only suspicions, and i could be badly wrong. One thing i have learned following for three years this mess – things are often not as they appear, and i have to be very careful not to lose myself in conspiracy theories (of which some are likely). At times i have been mislead, by purpose, or because people unconsciously made fact out of rumor, and therefore i try to make sure that what i write is supported by enough evidence. When i have enough evidence of collusion (such as with the Blue Shirts in Pattaya), i will write about it, or at least some of it, enough for people to get the picture, and without bringing me and my sources in danger.
Reporting on these socio-political conflicts is like moving through a maze full of booby traps – physically, psychologically and intellectually incredibly demanding.
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@ Nick #173
Abhisit has finally said something about Blue -shirts – I might be wrong, but I think this is the FIRST time ever he spoke about them :
Interview With Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva
“The blue shirts were there for a couple of reasons. First is that I think they saw that the police could not handle the red shirts, and that a number of people, including local people, didn’t want that to happen, so they were actually positioned behind the police line to make sure that the police just don’t allow people to go through. We were trying to say, look, everybody has to be very careful, we don’t want this to generate into violence and bloodshed, and so that’s why
the blue shirts were like an organized group to back up the police
, but we clearly said that any group involved must not use violence, and anybody who violates that will be prosecuted, so there will be cases brought against both blue and red shirts.
”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/06/world/asia/06thai-excerpts.html?_r=2&ref=asia.html
well, let’s see how Abhisit will prosecute the Blue shirts. so far, 5 months he is in office, he didn’t do much to prosecute PAD.
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I find the repetitive phrase like ‘residence/Yellow Shirts’ a grossly distortion of fact to the point of having that mind-bending quality. If you are a Red Shirt supporter, why not front up to it. There is no shame in that. But please do not act like Jatuporn, by denying that those smashing Abhisit’s car were not really real Red Shirts.
Both Red Shirts and Yellow Shirts are just equally easily exploitable. Both were simply whipped up emotionally to stand up against what each perceive to be what was wrong.
About the so-called ‘double standard’, it is being repeated so much that it begins to sound like a parrot. The reality and the problem is that there is not any ‘Standard’ in the first place. Somchai was dumbfound with the Yellow Shirts, Abhisit got lucky with the way he dealt with the Red Shirts. Both circumstances are different with the exception that the Yellow Shirts suffered more fatal wounds among its supporters then the Red Shirts. If any thing, perhaps, in the Red Shirts case, at least they benefit from the mistake learned from the mishandling of the Yellow Shirts. Imagine if the Thai police were to fire tear gas at the Red Shirts and killed a few in the process, I hate to imagine what the consequence might be, with the uncontrollable mob.
I think credit ought to be given to Veera for calling off the protest.
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Thanks for this article. Very complete and with lots of pictures.
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Paul Thavat #179
I can’t say about who those “red shirts” at Interior Ministry actually were.
however I can provide you with evidence that both Abhisit and Nation are lying now that Abhisit was in that car :
“Several police and protesters were injured during a riot inside the Interior Ministry when red-shirted protesters tried to attack a motorcade leaving the compound on suspicion that the prime minister was inside one of the cars, Thai PBS reported.
The station confirmed that both Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban were not in any car of the motorcade.
The station said Abhisit and Suthep left the Interior Ministry before the red-shirted protesters managed to block the entrance of the compound and ran inside and rioted.
The Nation”
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/read.php?newsid=30100329
any thoughts ?
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antipadshist
MCOT news also reported on it at the time.
“Shortly after the state of emergency was announced, a group of anti-government protesters led by the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) stormed into the Interior Ministry compounds where Mr. Abhisit made the announcement.
Gunshots were heard while UDD protesters looked for Mr. Abhisit. However, the prime minister later managed to escape from the ministry by car.”
http://enews.mcot.net/view.php?id=9466&t=2
I’ll reiterate my view that if the PM had not of of declared a SOE none of this would have happened.
He used the blocking of the Criminal court as part of an excuse but “HELLO Mark” it was Sunday during a National holiday and the court was CLOSED, the protesters were not rowdy and they kept the road open, even directing traffic.
The government wanted to work fast because they knew that once Sonkran was over the UDD numbers would swell with their returning members from the provinces and they may well get ousted from power. In other words the Democrats used the military to consolidate power, very democratic Democrats. The SOE was ordered for expediency and not to restore order.
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@ hclau, c.162:
“If he [abhisit] has taken at least some action with regards to the PAD…”
well, in reality… Abhisit gov was the _first_… to put pressure to enhance speed of judicial processes ag pad. don’t believe me; it’s public knowledge, just some research footwork na
uiiih… now you’ll say…. “BUT BUT he was so fast to act ag udd…”
a) what do you want? a pm that directs judges to act due to public pressures?
b) cases ag pad did not come under “soe”.
c) cases ag pad did not even come while abhisit was pm.
whatever… i guess it doesn’t matter to say it
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Nick #177,
Thank you for your honest reply. I very much appreciate it.
Regarding your main post and story:
The security guard at my building, I overheard them complaining about the protests (it affects their livelihood). They know I’m into politics, and they like to discuss politics with me.
Anyways, I had sent them the link of your Red Shirt report in Thai. One of them said that he liked your post very much, that it provided him with a great story and said that you are ‘klaa haarn’ (brave).
He also asked me to communicate this to you (I had told him that I comment on your story and that you reply to posts), he asked that I not provide his name, so it is omitted.
He is from Nang Lerng area, and he was one of those who took arms against the ‘outsiders’. He said that they took guns and shot in the air, and through loudspeakers told both soldiers and red shirts that they were not welcome into the area. He also said that the 2 dead were on ‘guard’ duty at the time, and that he said its not clear cut the killing was done by red shirts (as purported by the government), as it was done very professionally.
In particular he said that he didn’t like that you referred to them as PAD. He hates the PAD and is a Thaksin TRT/PPP supporter. He said that it wasn’t “fair” for everyone to be labeled as PAD but that their community decided to keep all outsiders out, regardless of political affiliation.
Anyways, I promised him that I would communicate it to you, and I have.
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“Dickie Simpkins”:
Thanks a lot. Of course things are never clear cut, and i do consider what you just wrote.
On the 14th i have seen in some sois at Nang loern people also asking both red shirts and army to leave, on other sois i have seen people applauding army. During the whole period of protests in some sois in the area i have seen locals being very friendly with Red Shirts, and in others not.
The fighting though is still a bit of a mystery to me, and it will take some more time before i can make more sense out of it. I have seen some fuzzy footage where Red Shirts were brutally beaten at the fights at Saphan Khao. Also a colleague of mine, a fellow foreign journalist, very experienced, was nearly shot there by what he said was not just normal locals.
I do know that during the fighting at night both sides had guns and used them. People i spoke with who took part in the fighting said that when the fights escalated it was often not possible to see who is who. But it was confirmed to me by police and military that there was PAD involved as well.
Did the security guard you know take part in the actual fighting, or did he just help securing his own soi? Slightly different locations might have had completely different situations.
Anyhow, i have been asking again about the so called “third hands” having burned buses. I have still no indication that this was so. What i got confirmed is that the buses were handed over to the Red Shirts to use as barricades by sympathizers, and that, as i assumed, this was just normal part of the escalation process. There may have been some agent provocateurs involved, but if so, than only in very isolated incidents.
On the other hand, i still suspect that a number of Red Shirts may have been killed (not dozens though, not more than maybe ten or 15 at most). I have no poof though, just suspicions.
Basically, there were two incidents we know very little about, where there is very little footage available from, and that is the early morning at Din Daeng, and the night fighting at Saphan Khao/Nang Loern. I have seen myself, and this was confirmed to me by military sources as well, that the morning attack was much less disciplined than the military actions during the day. Also statements of Red Shirts i know well, and who have taken part in all these incidents themselves reflect this. The bullet, for example, that flew over my head just before day break was clearly not aimed at the sky. Judging from the sound of the gun fired, it was not an assault rifle, but a handgun. Different from the midday push to Victory Monument, i also heard in the morning also several bursts of automatic fire, and not just single shots (i don’t know though if these burst were aimed at the sky or anywhere else).
I honestly hope i am wrong with my suspicions, and nobody got killed.
Nevertheless, in any such situation there will always be events and incidents we will never get much clarity about, conflicting witness accounts, rumors, agendas and spins from all sides involved, will muddy the issue. I cannot claim to hold “the truth”. My aim with this report was to communicate as accurately as i possibly could what i have seen, and how the process of escalation happened that led to the chaos of the Songkran Riots, but i also tried to convey that in the chaos it just is not possible to know everything that happens.
Both extremes – the one that demonizes the Red Shirts, and the one that absolves them from any wrongdoing are ideologically driven, and do not reflect reality as i see it on the ground. These are all humans, with complex reactions to any given situation, and not mindless robots that act on command. A process of escalation happened that could have been avoided, and that is at least as much the fault of the government as it is of the Red Shirt leadership. From what i can see, the key factor that escalated the almost violence free protests were the Blue Shirts. And i would like to see a proper explanation of the government, an investigation, and responsibility. This was not just the over reaction by agitated individuals in an uncontrollable mob situation, but planned from top level.
Red Shirt leaders are now having cases against them for the actions of the Red Shirts of which they could often not control in the chaos.
Why do we not see cases against the for the Blue Shirts responsible people in the government? Why is the traditional media far more quiet on the Blue Shirts as compared to the actions of the Red Shirts? The stuttering answer of Abhisit in the interview that was linked here to is not sufficient. It is typical politicians talk that says nothing whatsoever on what really happened. Given all the evidence about the Blue Shirts that is already in the public domain – the public has the right to expect a detailed explanation, and legal cases against the responsible people.
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Nick #185 – great points – and the two excellent statements below equally applies to Thai politics in general (so let’s avoid REDUCING this very complex phenomenon if we can) AND also the Yellow Shirts in particular.
“Nevertheless, in any such situation there will always be events and incidents we will never get much clarity about, conflicting witness accounts, rumors, agendas and spins from all sides involved, will muddy the issue. I cannot claim to hold “the truth”…”
“Both extremes – the one that demonizes the Red Shirts, and the one that absolves them from any wrongdoing are ideologically driven, and do not reflect reality as i see it on the ground. These are all humans, with complex reactions to any given situation, and not mindless robots that act on command. A process of escalation happened that could have been avoided…”
Let us also give the chain of events and multiple provocations that escalated the Yellow Shirts from being a small group of TycoonSonthi TV fans meeting at Lumbhini Park in 2005 (when his show was taken off air by PMThaksin’s government) into the battle-hardened group that took over of the two airports in 2008, at least equal rigor.
If the Red’s Songkran’s actions were “just normal part of the escalation process” – then surely the Yellow’s 3-years can also claim provocations by the Reds/TRT&PTT Governments/Third Hands on numerous occasions.
A Founding Father of the Reds (Mr.Newin) has now given birth to a sibling ‘Blue Shirts’ to counter elder brother Reds. They in fact planned a rally of 200,000 Blue Shirts (easily manageable with control of the Interior Ministry) that was discouraged by PMAbhisit. We have not seen the last of them, of course – as now each ambitious political party must have a street arm. PT-Reds, PhumjaiThai-Blues, Democrat-Yellows.
However, the PAD (Yellows) are at a major cross-road -whether to become a full political party “ThienHaengTham” (Candlelight of Dharma? Surely a MajGenChamlong influenced name?) or to retain its civic pressure group role – in light of the ‘reconciliation’ process. The assassination attempt on TycoonSonthi also proves that they are no longer mere street players – but have joined the big league of power players amongst politicians, military figures and businessmen.
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Well done Nick, Torng & I are glad to see you are still in Thailand & so involved in the local politics. We have a lot to catch up on, email us via scottis@fastmail.com.au
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Scott – that is a blast from the past! 17 years or so it must have been. I sent you an email straight away.
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now, here is a latest developement :
“Four red shirts get a slap on the wrist for blocking Din Daeng traffic”
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/05/19/politics/politics_30103051.php
THAT’s ALL ? LOL
nobody is charged for “insurgency”, “terrorism” (aka allegedthreatening to blow up gas truck, or burning busses) or for murders (as killing 2 civilians in that market area) ?!
this is supposed to be a joke, right ?
for blocking Din Daeng traffic
WHY till now nobody is arrested and charged for all those alleged crimes gov. and Thai media cried foul about ?
oh, wait, there is some ESPECIALLY established by gov. (Sathit) official website as an effort to proivde “facts” about events of 13th Apr : http://www.factreport.go.th/en/
there are A LOT of facts there – hahahahahaha !
“The site is still under development, please visit again in the near future.”
well, it is over 1 months now since Apr 13th – how long more it’ll take ? “near future” being like another 10-20 years (as those containers found under the sea) ?
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PM testifies at Songkran riots inquiry
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/143606/pm-explains-songkran-violence-to-panel
“No protesters died during the crackdown, he said
The government had already assigned appropriate agencies to look into the UDD’s claims that protesters died, he said.
The premier insisted he was inside his car when red-shirt protesters attacked it at the Interior Ministry.
The government did not allow the opposition to show video clips about the crackdown on the protesters because it would only exacerbate the problem, he said.”
not allowing (also censoring, blocking websites etc) certainly helps a lot the FACTS finding !
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It’s really a tragedy for Thailand’s politics. After the incident, Pheu Thai Party’s MPs (secretly sponsored by the “corruptor”) has tried to discredit the government and distract by pushing them with stupid and unproven accusations, in which detail can be found in antipadshist’s comments. They don’t care how reasonable the accusations are because they are aware of their voters’ quality. They just say what they want to say. I’m personally jeolous of Americans, Australians, or Japanese: this kind of politician would not survive in your countries.
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Can NN show us any action similar by the PAD?
check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFSkMPJItWg&feature=related
of course this is a doctored movie, the red shirts never did this, and if they did, they are yellow shirts who put red shirts to confuse the public
as jakrapop says:
we’re peaceful and mature people, unlike the yellow shirts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT0390RuKYc&feature=related
nuff said
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And get ready for a new round of Red protests for “true democracy” PMThaksinelson Shinawatranela style ???
“Supreme Court to hear Thaksin’s assets seizure case on July 16″
in
http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/30103840/Supreme-Court-to-hear-Thaksins-assets-seizure-case
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Please, no more protests, every protest from either side now is simply damaging Thailands democracy & reputation.
My view is a faulty democracy is better than none at all, time to stand back, look at the big picture & stop giving the army reason to be out of their barracks.
You’ve done a really good job Nick but I hate to see continuing division like this.
It’s time for everyone to burn their red & yellow shirts & don orange.
I don’t care how naive or simplistic this may sound but it’s the simple truth.
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Sidh S #193, could you explain your use of the doctored name for Thaksin, please. If it’s an attempt to mix in ‘Nelson Mandela,’ perhaps you could explain why. Maybe I’m dense, but I don’t get it. Be explicit, & keep it simple. Thanks.
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Sidh joins Foreign Minister Kasit in likening Thaksin to Mandela?
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Sidh S, Comparing a good effective yet ultimately too greedy millionaire ex Prime Minister with a saint who spent half his life in jail in protest against apartheid is simply ludicrous & shows how far you have slipped from reality.
) Thailand.
Democracy works when you get your revenge in the poll booth on election day. The ppl & the army of Thailand & other struggling democracies have got to learn Patience.
Thaksin should never have been ousted before his term was up but constant fighting & division isn’t going to fix everything up.
Thaksin was good but he had faults like all politicians, he was certainly no saint & not worth shedding your blood over.
Wake up & smell the roses (jasmine
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Somehow methinks Sidh was not comparing Thaksin to Mandela – certainly not in a favorable light anyway:)
Perhaps a sarcastic jibe at the way Thaksin does appear to be seen by a few here as saintly and a beacon of democracy????
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Michael#195, Ralph#196 and Scott#197, PMThaksin has himself made the comparison in one of his many phone-ins to his Red audiences.
Internationally, PMThaksin has been involved in a very conscious self-refashioning effort as the “peaceful fighter for true democracy” and also for the betterment of poor people in developing countries best captured in his Dubai and Hong Kong based organization website (which is very rarely updated!) launched with much fanfare last year:
http://www.buildingbetterfuture.org/
In this self-penned media myth, PMThaksin, like Nelson Mandela, is peace-loving democracy and freedom fighter. The Songkran Red Riots? Nothing to do with him as it was all masterfully orchestrated by the Democrats, PAD, Newin’s Blue Shirts, the military, the Privy Counsellors etc…etc… whoever his enemies are. All those people in Red committing the violence – all soldiers and PAD in red shirts! No responsibility nor accountability – I understand not even money to treat and support the maimed Red protesters (please correct me if I am wrong).
Yet at the same time he still market the inhumane Wars on Drugs as one of his major achievement as prime minister. Yet, when the opportunity has really arise to show the world he is a ‘changed man’ in the recent Burmese Junta’s actions against Aung San Syu Kyi. Nothing either from the Red Elite nor Pheu Thai leadership. The reality is PMThaksin hasn’t changed from the man who thought Syu Kyi’s detention “reasonable” in 2004:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9258-2004Dec17.html
Don’t get me wrong, Nelson Mandela is also one of my personal heroes. As a Thai, I would also like to apologize to South Africans that a former Thai prime minister is abusing Mandela’s name in this manner. I can be accused of doing so too, even if meant as extreme sarcasm as part of engaging in discussions with many of his ardent supporters in NM who sees him as a saint.
I will say again that if the progressive Red elements want to fight for true democracy and social equity, they must distance themselves from PMThaksin. It is best if they pick another color altogether. In fact, if they mean well, there’s an opportunity to join forces with the disparate but many poor rural and urban communities countrywide that are trying very hard to build democracy from the grassroots.
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Sidh: Can you remind which phone-in this was where Thaksin compared himself to Mandela and give me a place where I can find it? I think I missed it, but I can’t claim to have listened to all of them in detail. I do recall Suthep saying that Thaksin had done this and I did see Kasit make the comparison. Real request.
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Sidh #199
“No responsibility nor accountability – I understand not even money to treat and support the maimed Red protesters (please correct me if I am wrong).”
This is quite believable, Sidh. Thaksin has a reputation for being extremely tight fisted with his own money. Some senior red shirts were allegedly muttering in private that Thaksin failed to provide all the funding he promised for the Songkran riots which they claim is the reason they failed in their big push for the capital. Another 100,000 protesters trucked in would have made all the difference.
He brought the coup on himself by refusing to compromise over the profits from his dubious sale of Shin Corp which most urban people rightly or wrongly thought he should have been willing to pay tax on. His greed and selfishness is his undoing. This is a weakness that Newin knows well from bitter experience and is now aggressively seeking to exploit. Thaksin has provided Newin with the opportunity to attract more and more corrupt provincial politicians away from Thaksin in the hope that he will deliver the spoils that the Big Boss only ever promised to most of them as jam tomorrow.
Predictably Thaksin’s Building for a Better Future Foundation that you pointed out above appears to have done nothing apart from its initial PR puff.
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Thanks, Sidh. I didn’t think you’d suddenly changed sides – just couldn’t see the point. I do now. I had no idea Thaksin (& Kasit, too) had elevated himself in this way. What a sleaze!
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Portman makes a big claim: “Some senior red shirts were allegedly muttering in private that Thaksin failed to provide all the funding he promised for the Songkran riots which they claim is the reason they failed in their big push for the capital.” Is there any evidence at all for this claim? Again, this is a real question, not a criticism.
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Ralph
Unfortunately, the recipients and senders of the cash are reluctant to produce remittance advices and receipts and the written agreement to provide the funding has been inexplicably mislaid. This is perhaps understandable since the protest organizers could be liable for income tax on the difference between the cash received and the actual cost of the riots and VAT on the total amount! Just because there is no documentary evidence, that doesn’t mean it is not true, e.g. where are the bodies?
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I agree Portman, just because there is no evidence doesn’t make a rumour false. But it doesn’t make a rumour true, either.
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Ralph #200
A quick google with “ทักษิณ ชินวัตร โฟนอิน เนลสัน แมนเดลล่า” gave 51,300 hits. It’s too much to go through but from the three news site:
http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1232889169
http://news.mcot.net/politic/inside.php?value=bmlkPTI1MDQzJm50eXBlPWNsaXA=
http://www.dailynews.co.th/web/html/popup_news/Default.aspx?Newsid=189020&NewsType=1&Template=1
PMThaksin made the comparison at a phone-in the “Truth Today” episode of 25th January this year. He was being interviewed by the Red Leadership – Jatuporn, Natawut and Veera. Matichon and MCOT news station paraphrased the interview while Dailynews presented as a direct quotation:
“ผมถือว่าการต่อสู้ทางอุดมการณ์เป็นสิ่งที่สูงสุด แต่สิ่งที่มากกว่านั้น คือ การต่อสู้ทางอุดมการณ์แล้วไม่ได้รับความยุติธรรมถือว่าเป็นสิ่งที่ไม่มีใคร ยอมรับได้ โดยเฉพาะอย่างยิ่ง ตนเพิ่งเดินทางไปที่เซาท์แอฟริกาหรือแอฟริกาใต้เป็นเมืองที่เขานับถือ “เนลสัน แมนเดลล่า” เป็นรัฐบุรุษของเขา เพราะเขาเป็นนักต่อสู้ที่ไม่ได้รับ ความเป็นธรรมถูกจำคุก 40 ปี เมื่อออกจากคุกก็ได้รับเลือกเป็นประธานาธิบดี ผมเองภาวะจิตใจตอนนี้ ต้องอดทนและเข้มแข็ง เพราะต้องต่อสู้กับความไม่เป็นธรรมต่อไปต้องแสวงหาความเป็นธรรมให้เจอ ไม่ว่าจะเจอบนสวรรค์หรือขุมนรกต้องเจอให้ได้ เพราะผมเชื่อว่าความเป็นธรรมต้องมี”
We also know now that the Reds have scheduled 27 June with some sort of “impact” within 3 months according to Nattawut Saikeur:
http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1243780392&grpid=00&catid=01
The assets seizure case starts on July 16th? Coincidence?
If you believe PMThaksin’s words that he is “non-violently” and “peacefully” fighting for “bigger ideals” and “true democracy”, you shouldn’t be too suprised that he has compared himself to a modern day saint. Really, it’s not beyond him.
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Sidh: Thanks. I had thought that you were referring to the March-April phone-ins. Any idea where the one for 25 January might be available? I googled a bit and couldn’t find it. Maybe it is blocked in Thailand?
The upcoming red shirt rally was, at one time, planned to begin on 24 June. That isn’t a coincidence.
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Thanks for the information, i posted your blog to my facebook group in the category `The crushing of the Red Shirts`. Regards, Katy
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Hello from Germany! May i quote a post a translated part of your blog with a link to you? I’ve tried to contact you for the topic The crushing of the Red Shirts, but i got no answer, please reply when you have a moment, thanks, Spruch [No problem with quoting or translating material from New Mandala, with appropriate attribution and a link back to the original. Andrew Walker]
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