New Mandala

23 responses so far ↓

• 1 Dickie Simpkins // Jun 9, 2009 at 6:13 pm

  Thank you Nick for this new openness at NM.

  While not directly limited to Thailand, I have a question that (I think) is anthropological, as that is the basis of this web site.

  Given Thailand’s LM law and the invisible players in Thai politics, China’s heavily censored media and Communist party, Singapore’s 1 party rule, Malaysia’s UMNO and their ‘Bhumiputra’ politics, the number of coup attempts and terrorism plaguing in the Phillipines, Hun Sen in Cambodia, and the Junta in Burma….

  … of the above, the Thai LM law is the most discussed here in New Mandala, and my question pertains to that. Is it s a cultural ‘Asian’ thing for ruling parties here to be fearful of dissent? Or even censoring of differing political points of view?

  What about the populace of these nations, why are they so willing to accept (not Burma, but Thailand, China, et al) harsh laws limiting their rights to free speech; or to give up what should be ‘inalienable rights’ for security?

  In my opinion, Thailand gets rapped more than the others because real political players are not recognized as political players at all. In Singapore, in spite of its heavy censorship, and harsh laws wherein the ruling family has never lost a court case even once (no one here seems to complain about Judicial coups there…), there seems to be little, if limited discussion on the heavy-handedness or lack of political opportunities there.

  Anyways, I have a very sincere question that can’t really be discussed in other posts as it is not topical.

  I guess my question’s scope is more of Thai politics in terms of the greater Asian psyche rather than limited to Thailand in itself.

• 2 WLH // Jun 9, 2009 at 8:46 pm

  I would love to see some hard-to-find numbers used to confirm or bust certain conventional wisdoms casually thrown about in Thailand discussions. Such as:

  “Thailand has no dominant middle class.” (So let’s define middle income in Thai terms, and find out what percentage of Thais fit that group, the growth of this group relative to high and low income groups, etc.)

  “The Thai middle class is in Bangkok.” (Probably true, but what if numbers showed us that the percentage of Thai middle-income persons was only 45% located in Bangkok?)

  “Thailand is totally corrupt.” (What percentage of GDP is actually lost to corruption, and is there any source on this other than the UN?)

  In short, some statistical trend analysis that shows how actual economics and demographics may vary from our assumptions and how those variances may explain or further mystify the political and social trends that are more frequently discussed.

  That, and more articles about Fufu.

• 3 Ralph Kramden // Jun 9, 2009 at 10:56 pm

  Dickie: Why is it a “new” openness. I recall several calls for guest contributors. What has been closed?

• 4 David Brown // Jun 9, 2009 at 11:51 pm

  in case anyone that understands Thai is interested to catch up on the redshirts:

  http://mvtv.co.th/th/tv.php?channel=mv5
  has a nightly redshirt forum

  and sometimes the partially restarted redshirt TV is showing on :
  http://www.newskythailand.com/

• 5 Dickie Simpkins // Jun 10, 2009 at 2:42 am

  Ralph et al,

  Sorry, I should have referred to the word ‘open thread’ instead of ‘openness’

• 6 Marco // Jun 11, 2009 at 5:12 am

  I recall that the CP group cosied up to Thaksin when he was in power, despite that fact that is was supposedly the old-money elite that wanted him overthrown. I am interested in learning more about the old-money families and their allegiances and machinations.

• 7 jonfernquest // Jun 11, 2009 at 5:45 pm

  WLH writes: “I would love to see some hard-to-find numbers used to confirm or bust certain conventional wisdoms casually thrown about in Thailand discussions. Such as: “Thailand has no dominant middle class.” (So let’s define middle income in Thai terms, and find out what percentage of Thais fit that group, the growth of this group relative to high and low income groups, etc.)”

  There are several definitions of middle class covered in The Economist special report on “The new middle classes in emerging markets.” (Also listen to podcast overview in left sidebar)

  Under these definitions many people in Thailand fall into the middle class.

  The problem is not creating Thailand specific definitions of “middle class” it is getting objective information on the way things actually work that can be compared to other countries. Take EDSA II and the military ouster of Estrada in the Phillipines, this covert military influence on politics predates Thailand’s 2006 by several years.

  Also Bangkok Pundit characterizes provincial elite as “godfathers” or “mafia” in one posting. This is clearly inaccurate. I was sitting at the dinner table of one the most famous Farang in Thailand, “Tatler’s top 300″ (lucky me) and had the chance to talk about Thaksin’s rice subsidies in 2004 with a local rice mill owner. This was a wealthy middleman in the agricultural supply chain who had nothing to do with the local mafia.

  More accurate demographics and details of how society and economy works at many levels, is called for.

  More accuracy, more details, more comparison, less assertion without proof, less doctrinaire assertion based on ideological beliefs, is called for.

• 8 bangkokpundit // Jun 11, 2009 at 8:12 pm

  JF said:

  “Also Bangkok Pundit characterizes provincial elite as “godfathers” or “mafia” in one posting. This is clearly inaccurate. I was sitting at the dinner table of one the most famous Farang in Thailand, “Tatler’s top 300″ (lucky me) and had the chance to talk about Thaksin’s rice subsidies in 2004 with a local rice mill owner. This was a wealthy middleman in the agricultural supply chain who had nothing to do with the local mafia.”

  Actually, I said “[t]he feudal provincial elite (or godfathers or whatever you want to call them)…provincial godfathers/feudal elite”. I didn’t characterise all persons in the provincial elite as feudal. Some of the provincial elite would fit into the old elite or the nouveau riche or perhaps fit into another category all together.

• 9 jonfernquest // Jun 11, 2009 at 11:30 pm

  Pasuk and Baker have a chapter in Thai Capital on “localities” that traces the history of some local “elite” in Chiang Mai and Rayong and could well serve as an model for research.

  Even prominent names that are not “mafia” per se can have connections with mafia. For example, a motorcycle dealership can availa themselves of local mafia repossession services. This sort of revelation won’t be found in the local provincial newspaper, perhaps a limitation of local media. Thailand is not unique in this respect . There are local political monopolies all over the Philippines like the Osmena’s in Cecu documented in Hedman and Sidel Philippine politics and society in the twentieth century (2000). Transcripts of court cases that bring out hidden details are an oft cited source in this work.

• 10 nobody // Jun 12, 2009 at 4:39 pm

  Pursuing how power structures really worked from the lowest to highest levels and how it varies by region would be an interesting topic imho.

  Actually regional, provincial and local stuff of any kind is great.

  I tend to agree there are too many generalisations thrown around and am probably as guilty as anyone else in my short posting history.

• 11 jonfernquest // Jun 12, 2009 at 6:05 pm

  bangkokpundit: “[t]he feudal provincial elite (or godfathers or whatever you want to call them)…provincial godfathers/feudal elite”.

  Sorry, you clearly allowed for a lot of different ways of characterizing them, but….

  Local power elite, local nouveau riche, provincial godfathers, mafia whatever, all these characterizations are **negative pre-judgements** instead of attempts to elucidate the oftentimes complex inter-relationships they have in their rural-provincial world. The overuse by the media of the word “elite” (which really doesn’t elucidate anything) in the recent political conflicts in Thailand is another case in point.

  There is a full panoply of character types in rural Thailand and also the border regions. To take one example i know of because i used to play golf with the guy in Maesai-Tachileik, this not very rich guy on the Tachileik side (he had like a little electronics shop) somehow managed to wrest the electricity power generation contract from the Thai concession holder (i guess this makes him “nouveau riche”) one day when he walking out to his car at Tachileik driving range a hit man stuck a gun with a silencer to his chest and pulled the trigger, he wasn’t expecting this, his kids quickly learned how to use a gun afterwards, and they eventually killed the guy who killed their father.

  Investigative journalism seems to be at an early stage of development in Thailand compared to places like the Philippines which has honed its teeth on the Marcos and Estrada cases. The detail on Estrada’s gambling kickbacks, his five wives, finances, houses, collected by Philippine Center for Investigative Journalism (PCIJ) and published in works by people like Sheila Coronel, now teacher at Columbia, Greg Hutchinson, and Ellen Toresillas (Hot Money, Warm Bodies) is astounding and makes you wonder if and when Thailand could do something like this.

• 12 Ralph Kramden // Jun 12, 2009 at 6:22 pm

  Also recommended reading is some of Ockey’s work on chao pho etc., McVey’s collection that relates to the 1990s, Yoshinori Nishizaki’s work on Suphanburi. There’s actually quite a bit about.

• 13 Ralph Kramden // Jun 12, 2009 at 6:22 pm

  And I shouldn’t forget to mention the excellent book by Daniel Aghiros.

• 14 antipadshist // Jun 14, 2009 at 8:29 am

  @JF #11

  … all these characterizations are **negative pre-judgements** instead of attempts to elucidate the oftentimes complex inter-relationships they have in their rural-provincial world.

  and what, pray, do you find positive in these guys?

  I see them as blood suckers, including that your good fella wealthy middleman, even if he might be a “good” person – it only makes him another “good” blood sucker.

• 15 nganadeeleg // Jun 14, 2009 at 10:51 am

  Is it s a cultural ‘Asian’ thing for ruling parties here to be fearful of dissent? Or even censoring of differing political points of view?

  Thanks for a great question Dickie, and for those taking up the challenge, can I humbly request that the question be expanded to add:
  - Are the reasons for that fear based more on a desire to protect privileges, or a desire to hold the country together instead of splintering apart?

  Antipadshist: I still think you need a name change:)
  Some of the stuff you say could even have come from the early PAD (or its latest reincarnation:)

• 16 antipadshist // Jun 15, 2009 at 1:24 am

  @Nga

  it’s a bit too early to change name.
  coz fascist element in PAD is still too strong.

• 17 Dickie Simpkins // Jun 15, 2009 at 2:15 pm

  To Nick, Andrew and other anthropologists here:

  I repeat:

  Is it s a cultural ‘Asian’ thing for ruling parties here to be fearful of dissent? Or even censoring of differing political points of view? added with Nga’s “Are the reasons for that fear based more on a desire to protect privileges, or a desire to hold the country together instead of splintering apart?”

  Perhaps there has been already studies about these attitudes on a macro scale already out there somewhere.

  Can someone with true academic knowledge point me out to the available literature, as it is something I am truly interested in….

  thank you in advance.

• 18 Observer // Jun 15, 2009 at 3:03 pm

  Has anyone made any comparisons between Thailand and that other “managed democracy” making headlines these last few days?

  In both Thailand and Iran, there appears to be a vibrant political culture and active democratic activities, but the bulk of the power is held by unaccountable elites. On the surface, it seems like some of the conditions are quite similar: controlling the means of power through appointed bodies, banning political parties and actors, inability to scrutinize those at the very top, etc.

• 19 Dudeist // Jun 15, 2009 at 7:49 pm

  Fernquest,

  You ask for “More accuracy, more details, more comparison, less assertion without proof, less doctrinaire assertion based on ideological beliefs, is called for.”

  While your source is some dinner you have with a Tatler hi-so?

  Haha hahahah.

  And if you’d read anything at all ever about ideology you’d know that it works at its most effective level when it is works unconsciously.

  You seem to be in the grip of various unconscious ideological statements Jon. I’d suggest a little more self-awareness before you start another round of your “I know best cos i play golf with someone” type hokum.

• 20 Observer // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:03 pm

  I know the analogy is not perfect, but do think a side-by-side look at the Iranian and Thai systems can be instructive, especially right now. This quote from the NY Times could almost describe Thailand without much modification (particularly if one takes a more expansive view of what is treated as religion here):

  Under Iran’s dual system of government, with civil and religious institutions, the supreme leader can usually operate in the shadows, while elected officials serve as the public face of Iranian governance and policy.

  http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/world/middleeast/16iran.html?_r=1&hpw

• 21 antipadshist // Jun 17, 2009 at 4:26 am

  new scheme or scam ?

  Rice Price Guarantee Scheme

  The government under Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva therefore initiated the idea to use a rice price guarantee scheme instead of the existing rice mortgage scheme…

  … the rice price guarantee scheme is similar to typical insurances; an insurance buyer will be compensated if problems arise. But if there are no problems, the insurance buyer’s premium will be considered as hedging costs. Such costs can in a way prevent the farmers from dishonestly reporting their rice stocks to the government.

  there is nothing mentioned about middlemen and about rice exporters – who are actually the MAIN players who infuence the prices.

  I guess Abhisit & Korn have a credit for this brilliant scam. “insurance like” – to me it rather implies that it will be as hard to prove the “problem”. so, gov. or its agents will always be easily able to prove that “there is no problem”.

  in the end, the same middlemen and exporters will continue getting fatter, and farmers – become increasingly extinct species.

• 22 antipadshist // Jun 17, 2009 at 4:29 am

  @Observer #20

  Jotman on his blog has posted some similar story.

• 23 antipadshist // Jun 18, 2009 at 6:35 am

  an interesting article about middle class, related to Thailand too :

  The Myth of the Democratizing Middle Class

  … Economic growth and democracy tend to correlate, but correlation is not synonymous with simple causal effect. The belief that capitalists will necessarily demand democracy is a myth, not a law of social science.

  There is nothing new about the assumption that the middle class has played a key role in the emergence of democracy in Asia. The middle class theory originally grew out of a fascination with Asia’s new rich and their political potential. The new rich were credited with bringing about the democratic popular uprisings that changed South Korea, the Philippines, Thailand and Indonesia in the 1980s and 1990s.

  However, this period was also noted for the debate about so-called “Asian values” and the superiority of the Asian development model as opposed to the Western emphasis on the individual, democracy and human rights. Representatives of an Asian middle class could be found on either side of the divide. Asia’s many middle classes were not one entity at the time and did not act as one…

  Solheim’s use of the term middle class is confusing. Asia’s middle classes span across a diverse group with different backgrounds, preferences and interests. To expect this class to gather around one common political platform and one common set of political goals is to play tricks with oneself.

  Asia’s economic middle class—identifiable by its income and its lifestyle—comprises farmers, entrepreneurs, white-collar workers, military personnel, bureaucrats and others. In several countries in the region, such as China, Singapore and Malaysia, such a middle class has emerged without bringing about democratic regime change so far…

  There is also an intellectual middle class in Asia, identifiable by its qualifications rather than its economic status. Professionals such as academics, teachers, students, artists, writers, and journalists have long traditions of challenging those in power in Asia … As long as freedom of expression and academic and artistic freedoms are gagged, this middle class also remains unable to mobilize for rebellion.

  The experience from several of Burma’s neighboring countries is that the middle classes have rarely taken the lead when mass movements have developed… Solheim’s expectation that such a middle class is in some way predestined to take a lead in the struggle for democracy is not grounded in reality…

  I think in Thailand there is enough evidence of this in past 2-3 years – that middle class not only do not bring the democratic changes, but even act as a reactionary to oppose any attempts to makes change.

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