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	<title>Comments on: Thai political and social analysis unleashed</title>
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	<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/06/09/thai-political-and-social-analysis-unleashed/</link>
	<description>New perspectives on mainland Southeast Asia</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 02:39:39 +1100</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: antipadshist</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/06/09/thai-political-and-social-analysis-unleashed/comment-page-1/#comment-655679</link>
		<dc:creator>antipadshist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=5708#comment-655679</guid>
		<description>an interesting article   about middle class, related to Thailand too :

&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.irrawaddy.org/opinion_story.php?art_id=16046&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;The Myth of the Democratizing Middle Class&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

... Economic growth and democracy tend to correlate, but correlation is not synonymous with simple causal effect. The belief that capitalists will necessarily demand democracy is a myth, not a law of social science. 

There is nothing new about the assumption that the middle class has played a key role in the emergence of democracy in Asia. The middle class theory originally grew out of a fascination with Asia’s new rich and their political potential. The new rich were credited with bringing about the democratic popular uprisings that changed South Korea, the Philippines, Thailand and Indonesia in the 1980s and 1990s.

However, this period was also noted for the debate about so-called “Asian values” and the superiority of the Asian development model as opposed to the Western emphasis on the individual, democracy and human rights. Representatives of an Asian middle class could be found on either side of the divide. Asia’s many middle classes were not one entity at the time and did not act as one...

Solheim’s use of the term middle class is confusing. Asia’s middle classes span across a diverse group with different backgrounds, preferences and interests. To expect this class to gather around one common political platform and one common set of political goals is to play tricks with oneself.

Asia’s economic middle class—identifiable by its income and its lifestyle—comprises farmers, entrepreneurs, white-collar workers, military personnel, bureaucrats and others. In several countries in the region, such as China, Singapore and Malaysia, such a middle class has emerged without bringing about democratic regime change so far...

There is also an intellectual middle class in Asia, identifiable by its qualifications rather than its economic status. Professionals such as academics, teachers, students, artists, writers, and journalists have long traditions of challenging those in power in Asia ...  As long as freedom of expression and academic and artistic freedoms are gagged, &lt;b&gt;this middle class also remains unable to mobilize for rebellion&lt;/b&gt;.  

The experience from several of Burma’s neighboring countries is that the &lt;b&gt;middle classes have rarely taken the lead&lt;/b&gt; when mass movements have developed... Solheim’s expectation that such a middle class is in some way predestined to take a lead in the struggle for democracy is not grounded in reality... 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think in Thailand there is  enough evidence of this in past 2-3 years - that middle class  not only  do not bring the democratic changes, but even act as a reactionary to oppose any attempts to makes change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>an interesting article   about middle class, related to Thailand too :</p>
<blockquote><p>
<a href="http://www.irrawaddy.org/opinion_story.php?art_id=16046" rel="nofollow"><b>The Myth of the Democratizing Middle Class</b></a></p>
<p>&#8230; Economic growth and democracy tend to correlate, but correlation is not synonymous with simple causal effect. The belief that capitalists will necessarily demand democracy is a myth, not a law of social science. </p>
<p>There is nothing new about the assumption that the middle class has played a key role in the emergence of democracy in Asia. The middle class theory originally grew out of a fascination with Asia’s new rich and their political potential. The new rich were credited with bringing about the democratic popular uprisings that changed South Korea, the Philippines, Thailand and Indonesia in the 1980s and 1990s.</p>
<p>However, this period was also noted for the debate about so-called “Asian values” and the superiority of the Asian development model as opposed to the Western emphasis on the individual, democracy and human rights. Representatives of an Asian middle class could be found on either side of the divide. Asia’s many middle classes were not one entity at the time and did not act as one&#8230;</p>
<p>Solheim’s use of the term middle class is confusing. Asia’s middle classes span across a diverse group with different backgrounds, preferences and interests. To expect this class to gather around one common political platform and one common set of political goals is to play tricks with oneself.</p>
<p>Asia’s economic middle class—identifiable by its income and its lifestyle—comprises farmers, entrepreneurs, white-collar workers, military personnel, bureaucrats and others. In several countries in the region, such as China, Singapore and Malaysia, such a middle class has emerged without bringing about democratic regime change so far&#8230;</p>
<p>There is also an intellectual middle class in Asia, identifiable by its qualifications rather than its economic status. Professionals such as academics, teachers, students, artists, writers, and journalists have long traditions of challenging those in power in Asia &#8230;  As long as freedom of expression and academic and artistic freedoms are gagged, <b>this middle class also remains unable to mobilize for rebellion</b>.  </p>
<p>The experience from several of Burma’s neighboring countries is that the <b>middle classes have rarely taken the lead</b> when mass movements have developed&#8230; Solheim’s expectation that such a middle class is in some way predestined to take a lead in the struggle for democracy is not grounded in reality&#8230;
</p></blockquote>
<p>I think in Thailand there is  enough evidence of this in past 2-3 years &#8211; that middle class  not only  do not bring the democratic changes, but even act as a reactionary to oppose any attempts to makes change.</p>
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		<title>By: antipadshist</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/06/09/thai-political-and-social-analysis-unleashed/comment-page-1/#comment-655333</link>
		<dc:creator>antipadshist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=5708#comment-655333</guid>
		<description>@Observer  #20

Jotman on his blog has posted some similar  story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Observer  #20</p>
<p>Jotman on his blog has posted some similar  story.</p>
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		<title>By: antipadshist</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/06/09/thai-political-and-social-analysis-unleashed/comment-page-1/#comment-655332</link>
		<dc:creator>antipadshist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=5708#comment-655332</guid>
		<description>new scheme  or scam ?

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=255206130001&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Rice Price Guarantee Scheme&lt;/a&gt;

The government under Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva therefore initiated the idea to use a rice price guarantee scheme instead of the existing rice mortgage scheme... 

... the rice price guarantee scheme is similar to typical insurances; an insurance buyer will be compensated if problems arise. But if there are no problems, the insurance buyer’s premium will be considered as hedging costs. Such costs can in a way prevent the farmers from dishonestly reporting their rice stocks to the government.  &lt;/blockquote&gt;


there is nothing mentioned about middlemen and about  rice exporters - who are actually the &lt;b&gt;MAIN&lt;/b&gt;  players who infuence the prices.

I guess Abhisit &amp; Korn have a credit for this brilliant scam.  &quot;insurance like&quot; - to me it rather implies that  it will be as hard to prove the  &quot;problem&quot;.  so, gov. or its agents will always be easily able to prove that &quot;there is no problem&quot;.

in the end,  the same  middlemen and exporters  will continue getting fatter, and farmers  - become increasingly extinct species.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>new scheme  or scam ?</p>
<blockquote><p><a href="http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=255206130001" rel="nofollow">Rice Price Guarantee Scheme</a></p>
<p>The government under Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva therefore initiated the idea to use a rice price guarantee scheme instead of the existing rice mortgage scheme&#8230; </p>
<p>&#8230; the rice price guarantee scheme is similar to typical insurances; an insurance buyer will be compensated if problems arise. But if there are no problems, the insurance buyer’s premium will be considered as hedging costs. Such costs can in a way prevent the farmers from dishonestly reporting their rice stocks to the government.  </p></blockquote>
<p>there is nothing mentioned about middlemen and about  rice exporters &#8211; who are actually the <b>MAIN</b>  players who infuence the prices.</p>
<p>I guess Abhisit &amp; Korn have a credit for this brilliant scam.  &#8220;insurance like&#8221; &#8211; to me it rather implies that  it will be as hard to prove the  &#8220;problem&#8221;.  so, gov. or its agents will always be easily able to prove that &#8220;there is no problem&#8221;.</p>
<p>in the end,  the same  middlemen and exporters  will continue getting fatter, and farmers  &#8211; become increasingly extinct species.</p>
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		<title>By: Observer</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/06/09/thai-political-and-social-analysis-unleashed/comment-page-1/#comment-655289</link>
		<dc:creator>Observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 04:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=5708#comment-655289</guid>
		<description>I know the analogy is not perfect, but do think a side-by-side look at the Iranian and Thai systems can be instructive, especially right now. This quote from the NY Times could almost describe Thailand without much modification (particularly if one takes a more expansive view of what is treated as religion here):

&lt;q&gt;Under Iran’s dual system of government, with civil and religious institutions, the supreme leader can usually operate in the shadows, while elected officials serve as the public face of Iranian governance and policy.&lt;/q&gt;

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/world/middleeast/16iran.html?_r=1&amp;hpw</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know the analogy is not perfect, but do think a side-by-side look at the Iranian and Thai systems can be instructive, especially right now. This quote from the NY Times could almost describe Thailand without much modification (particularly if one takes a more expansive view of what is treated as religion here):</p>
<p><q>Under Iran’s dual system of government, with civil and religious institutions, the supreme leader can usually operate in the shadows, while elected officials serve as the public face of Iranian governance and policy.</q></p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/world/middleeast/16iran.html?_r=1&amp;hpw" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/world/middleeast/16iran.html?_r=1&amp;hpw</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dudeist</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/06/09/thai-political-and-social-analysis-unleashed/comment-page-1/#comment-655200</link>
		<dc:creator>Dudeist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=5708#comment-655200</guid>
		<description>Fernquest,

You ask for &quot;More accuracy, more details, more comparison, less assertion without proof, less doctrinaire assertion based on ideological beliefs, is called for.&quot;

While your source is some dinner you have with a Tatler hi-so?

Haha hahahah.

And if you&#039;d read anything at all ever about ideology you&#039;d know that it works at its most effective level when it is works unconsciously.

You seem to be in the grip of various unconscious ideological statements Jon. I&#039;d suggest a little more self-awareness before you start another round of your &quot;I know best cos i play golf with someone&quot; type hokum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fernquest,</p>
<p>You ask for &#8220;More accuracy, more details, more comparison, less assertion without proof, less doctrinaire assertion based on ideological beliefs, is called for.&#8221;</p>
<p>While your source is some dinner you have with a Tatler hi-so?</p>
<p>Haha hahahah.</p>
<p>And if you&#8217;d read anything at all ever about ideology you&#8217;d know that it works at its most effective level when it is works unconsciously.</p>
<p>You seem to be in the grip of various unconscious ideological statements Jon. I&#8217;d suggest a little more self-awareness before you start another round of your &#8220;I know best cos i play golf with someone&#8221; type hokum.</p>
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		<title>By: Observer</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/06/09/thai-political-and-social-analysis-unleashed/comment-page-1/#comment-655178</link>
		<dc:creator>Observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 04:03:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=5708#comment-655178</guid>
		<description>Has anyone made any comparisons between Thailand and that other &quot;managed democracy&quot; making headlines these last few days? 

In both Thailand and Iran, there appears to be a vibrant political culture and active democratic activities, but the bulk of the power is held by unaccountable elites. On the surface, it seems like some of the conditions are quite similar: controlling the means of power through appointed bodies, banning political parties and actors, inability to scrutinize those at the very top, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has anyone made any comparisons between Thailand and that other &#8220;managed democracy&#8221; making headlines these last few days? </p>
<p>In both Thailand and Iran, there appears to be a vibrant political culture and active democratic activities, but the bulk of the power is held by unaccountable elites. On the surface, it seems like some of the conditions are quite similar: controlling the means of power through appointed bodies, banning political parties and actors, inability to scrutinize those at the very top, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Dickie Simpkins</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/06/09/thai-political-and-social-analysis-unleashed/comment-page-1/#comment-655174</link>
		<dc:creator>Dickie Simpkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 03:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=5708#comment-655174</guid>
		<description>To Nick, Andrew and other anthropologists here:

I repeat:

Is it s a cultural ‘Asian’ thing for ruling parties here to be fearful of dissent? Or even censoring of differing political points of view? added with Nga&#039;s &quot;Are the reasons for that fear based more on a desire to protect privileges, or a desire to hold the country together instead of splintering apart?&quot;

Perhaps there has been already studies about these attitudes on a macro scale already out there somewhere.

Can someone with true academic knowledge point me out to the available literature, as it is something I am truly interested in....

thank you in advance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Nick, Andrew and other anthropologists here:</p>
<p>I repeat:</p>
<p>Is it s a cultural ‘Asian’ thing for ruling parties here to be fearful of dissent? Or even censoring of differing political points of view? added with Nga&#8217;s &#8220;Are the reasons for that fear based more on a desire to protect privileges, or a desire to hold the country together instead of splintering apart?&#8221;</p>
<p>Perhaps there has been already studies about these attitudes on a macro scale already out there somewhere.</p>
<p>Can someone with true academic knowledge point me out to the available literature, as it is something I am truly interested in&#8230;.</p>
<p>thank you in advance.</p>
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		<title>By: antipadshist</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/06/09/thai-political-and-social-analysis-unleashed/comment-page-1/#comment-655124</link>
		<dc:creator>antipadshist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:24:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=5708#comment-655124</guid>
		<description>@Nga

it&#039;s a bit too early to change name.  
coz  fascist element in PAD is still too strong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Nga</p>
<p>it&#8217;s a bit too early to change name.<br />
coz  fascist element in PAD is still too strong.</p>
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		<title>By: nganadeeleg</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/06/09/thai-political-and-social-analysis-unleashed/comment-page-1/#comment-655079</link>
		<dc:creator>nganadeeleg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 23:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=5708#comment-655079</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Is it s a cultural ‘Asian’ thing for ruling parties here to be fearful of dissent? Or even censoring of differing political points of view?&lt;/i&gt;

Thanks for a great question Dickie, and for those taking up the challenge, can I humbly request that the question be expanded to add: 
- Are the reasons for that fear based more on a desire to protect privileges, or a desire to hold the country together instead of splintering apart?  


Antipadshist: I still think you need a name change:)
Some of the stuff you say could even have come from the early PAD (or its latest reincarnation:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Is it s a cultural ‘Asian’ thing for ruling parties here to be fearful of dissent? Or even censoring of differing political points of view?</i></p>
<p>Thanks for a great question Dickie, and for those taking up the challenge, can I humbly request that the question be expanded to add:<br />
- Are the reasons for that fear based more on a desire to protect privileges, or a desire to hold the country together instead of splintering apart?  </p>
<p>Antipadshist: I still think you need a name change:)<br />
Some of the stuff you say could even have come from the early PAD (or its latest reincarnation:)</p>
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		<title>By: antipadshist</title>
		<link>http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/06/09/thai-political-and-social-analysis-unleashed/comment-page-1/#comment-655070</link>
		<dc:creator>antipadshist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/?p=5708#comment-655070</guid>
		<description>@JF #11

&lt;blockquote&gt;... all these characterizations are **negative pre-judgements** instead of attempts to elucidate the oftentimes complex inter-relationships they have in their rural-provincial world.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

and what, pray, do you find positive in these guys? 

I see them as &lt;b&gt;blood suckers&lt;/b&gt;, including that your good fella wealthy middleman, even if he might be a &quot;good&quot; person - it only makes him another &quot;good&quot; blood sucker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@JF #11</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230; all these characterizations are **negative pre-judgements** instead of attempts to elucidate the oftentimes complex inter-relationships they have in their rural-provincial world.</p></blockquote>
<p>and what, pray, do you find positive in these guys? </p>
<p>I see them as <b>blood suckers</b>, including that your good fella wealthy middleman, even if he might be a &#8220;good&#8221; person &#8211; it only makes him another &#8220;good&#8221; blood sucker.</p>
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