Below is the text of my remarks at the FCCT on 18 February 2010, reconstructed from my notes and my memory. Because I wasn’t reading from the notes (and haven’t reviewed the audio yet), please note that this is not *exactly* what I said — sometimes I deviated from the text I had prepared and condensed some of the things I had planned to say. However, this is probably close enough; the most provocative things in there were said pretty much in these words.
******
The first thing I have to say is this: Are you kidding me?
We are being lectured by Ajahn Panitan on “patience,” “democracy,” and the “rule of law?” Consider what it took for his government to come to power: a military coup, the dissolution of the only meaningful political party ever to emerge in the history of Thailand, a new constitution, the illegal occupation of the government house, the illegal occupation of the country’s busiest airports, and the bribery of members of parliament who needed to be persuaded to jump ship. For Ajahn Panitan to lecture us on “patience,” “democracy,” and “the rule of law” is the equivalent of Tiger Woods lecturing us on marital fidelity. Are you kidding me?
I remember the precise moment I became interested in Thai politics as more than just a case of failed democratization. It was the middle of July 2006. I was sitting in the lobby of my hotel on Sukhumvit Road, sipping on some coffee, reading the morning papers, when I came across an article entitled: “Military Must Back the King.”
The reason why the headline caught my eye is that up to that point I had never sensed anything other than the deepest, most sincere reverence for His Majesty the King. Why would there be a need to remind the military to “back the king?” I assumed that every enlisted man in Thailand swears an oath to protect the institutions of the state; it struck me as obvious, in this sense, that the military would be loyal to the King. So why would such an obvious statement deserve prominent placement in a national newspaper? Who is questioning the military’s loyalty to the country’s Head of State?
Then I read the article, which reported a speech given by a now 89-year-old retired general to a group of graduating cadets. As it turns out, the speech had nothing to do at all with the King; it was rather about the country’s elected government. In that speech, this old general openly encouraged the military to pay no attention to the orders coming from the elected government. He suggested that the elected government was a worthless appendage, certainly not worthy of commanding an institution quite as important as the Thai military. It struck me as a statement of incredible arrogance; one worthy of a RayBan-wearing dictator of some sub-Saharian African country, not of a supposed statesman in a country as civilized, sophisticated, and modern as Thailand is.
“You belong to the Nation and His Majesty the King,” Prem was reported to have said.
The problem with this statement is that modern democracy is founded upon the idea of representation: the elected government represents the nation; it is the expression of the nation’s will. And so how can the military be loyal to “the nation” and disloyal to the government that the nation has chosen? The implication seemed clear. What the electorate thinks it wants is irrelevant, Prem appeared to say. The will of the people, the interests of the nation, are what I say they are.
Of course, I have long since found out that the idea that the elected government should be severely limited in what it can or cannot do, that it should not really exercise any control over the military, is a key tenet of “Thai-style democracy.” I have also since found that this old general and his predecessors — people like Sarit and Thanom — know so little about the outside world and think they are so clever that they believe they are the first to come up with this idea.
The reason why I was intrigued is that I come from a country, Italy, with a long history of claims akin to these. Indeed, it could be said that it was the Romans who invented “Thai-style democracy” some 2,500 years ago. About 2,500 years ago, Rome’s patricians struck a deal with plebeian soldiers who had taken shelter on the Aventine Hill, refusing to fight in the service of a patrician-dominated polity. In return for getting the soldiers back to the battlefield, the deal essentially allowed the common folk to elect their representatives, who came to be known as “plebeian tribunes.” But whereas “plebeian councils” were thereafter allowed some limited authority to make laws, the real power remained with the Senate, to which only patrician families had access.
It struck me that Prem was saying that Thaksin was a mere “plebeian tribune.” As the elected Prime Minister, he may well have the authority to pass a few laws here and there. But he was certainly not fit to lead the country and order the military to do much of anything.
More ominously, perhaps, Prem’s statement reminded me of my country’s more recent history. Words from Benito Mussolini’s “Doctrine of Fascism” echoed in my mind:
Fascism is opposed to Democracy, which equates the nation to the majority, lowering it to the level of that majority; nevertheless it is the purest form of democracy if the nation is conceived, as it should be, qualitatively and not quantitatively.
I figured this is how Prem could separate “the nation” from the “elected government.” The will of the majority is irrelevant; governments elected by majority rule are unworthy of the army’s loyalty because majority rule is an inadequate expression of the interests of the nation. Incidentally, though neither Sondhi nor Chamlong are quite as articulate as Mussolini was, this statement is also quite reminiscent of rhetoric routinely employed by the PAD.
Over the past four years, I have come to Thailand often. I was here for several months after the coup. I was here during the 2007 constitutional referendum. I was here right before Samak’s election. I was here for the PAD’s sit-ins at the Makkawan Bridge and its occupation of the Government House. I was here on one of the first flights allowed in after the siege of Suvarnabhumi was lifted. I was here for Abhisit’s rise to Prime Minister. And I was here in the weeks after the Songkran rebellion. But I can’t say I have ever sensed an atmosphere quite as charged as today’s. Not since the middle of July 2006, I think, have we seen signs so ominous that something major is about to take place.
The specter of an impending military coup has now returned to haunt the city of Bangkok. Thailand’s Supreme Court appears to be on the verge of seizing all or part of Thaksin’s remaining fortune. The military appears to be divided; not much between “yellow” and “red” factions, but rather more importantly between moderate conservatives and hardline conservatives. Abhisit Vejjajiva’s elite-backed government hangs on for dear life; after the Democrat Party balked at constitutional reforms proposed by its allies, junior coalition members scoffed at the Prime Minister that his days are numbered. Tensions with Cambodia continue to simmer. The southern insurgency rages on, with no resolution in sight.
Meanwhile, Thailand staggers through an economic slump aggravated by unending uncertainty and prolonged political upheaval. The rural masses and the urban working class show unmistakable signs of restlessness. For the first time, they have figured out that the idea of “Thai-style democracy,” the foundation of a social contract they were forced to accept at gunpoint in the late 1950s, is a fraud.
Perhaps most troubling, Thaksin’s red-shirt supporters prepare for the kind of sustained mobilization that many fear might lead to further violence and chaos — indeed, that some on both sides hope will lead to further violence and chaos. The government’s posture, in this regard, is far from reassuring. With the daily scaremongering, the constant demonization of its opponents, and the suspicious explosives attacks, one gets the feeling that the Reichstag is about to burn down — that the government is fishing for an excuse to impose the Internal Security Act and allow the military to crack down hard on the protesters. Or that, in a trick out of an old playbook, the army is looking for an opportunity to step in and seize power to “restore order” and “protect the unity of the nation” — never mind that the military has been most consistently responsible for undermining both over the past 35 years.
Of course, nobody here knows whether a coup is actually in the works, but I would suggest one observation. No matter how stuck some old generals are in the 1970s, this is not 1976, when a gruesome massacre can go unnoticed in much of the country. Things are much different today than they were in 1973, 1976, or even 1992. This time, the red shirts do not embody the lofty democratic ideals of a relatively small, largely urban minority. The red shirts are rather the vehicle for the anger and frustration of perhaps tens of millions of people living in some of the country’s most populous regions. These people are tired of being second-class citizens. They are tired of being disenfranchised. They are tired of being told by those who have gotten rich through bribery and exploitation that they are too goddamn stupid, ignorant, or dark-skinned to have the right to elect their own leaders, speak their own minds, and enjoy a minimum of economic opportunity.
It is still quite possible that, if a coup were to take place, it might go off without a hitch in the very short term. But this time there is a good chance that any general who seizes power might not be able to subsequently waltz out of office quite as easily as Suchinda did in 1992, after dozens of people were murdered on his watch. If this is the game plan, if a coup really is in the cards, I can’t imagine that it would make sense to stage one unless you are an 89-year old retired general who only has a few years to live and does not want to witness the destruction of the system of government he has built. But I would caution younger military leaders like Gen. Prayuth. The future of Thailand does not belong to you. The future of Thailand belongs to the Thai people. And so it is much better to go down in history as the first general who gave Thailand real democracy, who got the military the hell out of politics, than it would be for you to run the risk of ending up like Nicolae Ceaucescu.
Thank you.
56 responses so far ↓
1 David Brown // Feb 21, 2010 at 9:21 pm
as they say in Australia… bloody good mate, hang in there
it will all come out right in the end…
maybe we will have to wait for some oldies to die or be declared senile but democratic elections will happen again and they will stick this time!
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2 BKK News Feed Archive Q1/10/II // Feb 21, 2010 at 10:39 pm
[...] NEW MANDALA – Ferrera @ the FCCT: “Are You Kidding Me?” ! STRAITS TIMES – Cat & Mouse in Thailand (“Thailand Unhinged” a talk of the town) LAT – Thailand Has a Flight Plan for Pigeons AFP – Thailand Braces for Explosive Thaksin Verdict THE NATION – Uneasy Calm Between Govt & Military BANGKOK POST – Decommission These Green Bus Wrecks ASIA TIMES – Thaksin Case Raises Specter of Violence ! RELIGION, SEX & POLITICS – Thais Are not Smiling: Panitan, Suranand & Ferrera @ the FCCT BANGKOK POST – GT200a Costly Dowsing Rod (“a con, a fraud, a crime,” but army insists it works) THE NATION – Army Knows Better: Defiant Over GT200 (and those are the people actually in charge they say …) BANGKOK POST – Thaksin Restructures Red Shirts Ahead of Protests FT – Bangkok Braces for Disruption Ahead of Thaksin Ruling [...]
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3 wenthworth // Feb 22, 2010 at 12:26 am
Couldn’t agree more.
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4 Thomas // Feb 22, 2010 at 12:29 am
from the often excellent Political Prisoners in Thailand blog……retired General Boonlert Kaewprasit says:
Attacks on Prem are attacks on the “Institution” and he called on the government to arrest “those attacking the Palace.”
http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2010/02/21/when-under-pressure-use-the-monarchy/
—————————————
February 21, 2010…12:55 pm
When under pressure, use the monarchy
In a very recent post, PPT briefly mentioned a statement by General Boonlert Kaewprasit, talking up a coup to save Privy Council President General Prem Tinsulanonda from further criticism. The Nation (21 February 2010) reports that Boonlert is a “former chief of the Army’s advisory board…”.
It is reported that in “a radio interview, Boonlert said attacks on Prem could be construed as an attack on the institution of monarchy and soldiers may eventually stage a coup to defend the institution.” He added, “Those who are [Prem's] enemies may not be aiming only at him but at those higher up…”. The general called on the government to arrest “those attacking the Palace.”
It seems that this theme is useful for the Democrat Party. When frightened and challenged, it seems that the yellow-shirted rhetoric is seen as most valuable and damaging to the red shirts. Taking up the republicanism theme, Thepthai Saenphong, speaking as a spokesman for Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, “insisted the red shirts were mobilising in tandem with the monarchy-abolition movement.”
He also “urged people to come out and tell the red shirts to stop mobilizing,” while making the rather tired accusation that Thaksin Shinawatra was paying each and every red shirt protestors. Thepthai is reported to have made the extraordinary claim – call it a fabrication because there seems no evidence to be presented – that Thaksin is spending 200 million baht a day. He makes this claim as other yellow shirts claim Thaksin is just about broke, a claim they have been making for months.
It seems that the Democrat Party and government are ratcheting up the attacks on the red shirts as Friday approaches. There have been threats, the military and police are deployed and several thousands of police and military have been staging practice clashes with “demonstrators” as a show of force and a threat to any potential protestors.
Red shirts have also done a bit of ratcheting up as well, but their demonstrations remain small, effective and peaceful. The only threats have come from former military men Seh Daeng and Panlop, while the mainstream red shirt leadership continues to say there will be no organized rally on 26 February. Even the People’s Alliance for Democracy seems to think that there won’t be violence after the assets case decision, but does warn against a “third party” inciting trouble.
But just to be sure, the government is preventing people from traveling to Bangkok. The Nation reports that in “Nakhon Ratchasima province, checkpoints along the roads have been set up to prevent the red shirts from joining the protests in Bangkok. Police patrols are also being launched every 30 minutes. Pickups and six-wheeler trucks are expected to be the main transportation mode carrying protesters to Bangkok.” The police usually stop these vehicles anyway to extort payments from them. But this is trying to limit free movement.
As a footnote, this report makes acting government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn appear again as a liar as he recently was reported as saying this was not happening while admitting that the government’s 37-page plan for stomping on the red shirts is real. Panitan deserves to cop plenty of criticism.
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5 Thailand: Democracy? Rule of Law? Are You Kidding Me? - TeakDoor.com - The Thailand Forum // Feb 22, 2010 at 2:45 am
[...] of the meeting here;Religion, Sex & Politics: Thais are not Smiling This summary is from Are you kidding me? [...]
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6 anonymous // Feb 22, 2010 at 1:58 pm
Dr. Frederico is obviously a very articulate, intelligent young professor with a bright career ahead of him. But while his insights may resonate in the minds of out-of-touch foreign observers, his idealistic observations clearly show that he does not have much understanding of Thailand or Thais — no doubt an outcome of his lack of experience and his age.
How can be so sure of the following statement?
“though neither Sondhi nor Chamlong are quite as articulate as Mussolini was, this statement is also quite reminiscent of rhetoric routinely employed by the PAD.”
Can Dr. Frederico even understand any Thai?
Or take this quote:
“The rural masses and the urban working class show unmistakable signs of restlessness. For the first time, they have figured out that the idea of “Thai-style democracy,” the foundation of a social contract they were forced to accept at gunpoint in the late 1950s, is a fraud.”
Is Dr. Frederico inspired by some Noam Chomsky he recently read, the king of material that a young activist might substitute for analysis? Every Thai I have ever met has long known that Thai democracy is a fraud.
“Force to accept at gunpoint.”
Oh yes, the “masses” have always been threatened by violence, and now they have had enough and are standing up because they have finally realized that they are getting the shaft.
“The red shirts are rather the vehicle for the anger and frustration of perhaps tens of millions of people living in some of the country’s most populous regions. These people are tired of being second-class citizens. They are tired of being disenfranchised.”
Yeah, and I suppose you might believe that separatist insurgents in the south are the vehicle for freeing the Patani people from those colonizing Thais. The Patani people are refusing their status as second-citizens. And finally, some group is stepping up for them from the oppression of the nasty state.
Go underdogs!!!
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7 StanG // Feb 22, 2010 at 3:44 pm
Had Federico happened to be in Thailand just a few days earlier, when Thaksin suddenly returned from his leave, resumed the post he publicly resigned from, assembled country’s top bureaucrats, declared a war on powerful person outside of constitution and demanded everyone to take sides, perhaps his take on Prem’s reaction would be seen in a slightly different light.
Not that Prem’s speech would have been any less provocative, but the context is lacking.
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8 chris beale // Feb 22, 2010 at 3:45 pm
Frederico – you’ve spoken a most brilliant, spot on analysis.
My father worked for the UN’s FAO, based in Rome, which I visited numerous times, and I especially appreciated your very appropriate analogies with Roman and Italian history.
I’d just like to add a few points – having travelled through-out Thailand apparently longer than you, indeed over a longer period than most (I first visited in 1963).
I was in Thailand when Chamlong and Sondhi seized the airports, Government House. I was on a train to Bangkok, with Nation journalist Roger Beaumont in the bunk next to mine, when he told us his phone contacts were announcing martial law in Bangkok as Songkran rioting swelled : I’d just left Lao PDR, where the border soldiers looked like not even Politburo orders would hold them back from moving across the Mekong into Isaarn, to protect their extended families there.
I also found myself – unasked – witnessing – May ’92 : and am absolutely disgusted with Chamlong (epecially), and Sondhi Limthongkul, who were then posing as champions of democracy : at the cost of a still-unaccounted number of dead, led to their deaths by Chamlong and Sondhi.
Many of these dead came from Isaarn, and the poorer provinces – yet these are the same type of people Chamlong and Sondhi are now trying to dis-enfranchise !!
Suchinda was up country at the time of May’92 – I don’t believe he himself was responsible for igniting the massacre.
But I’ve long harboured suspicions about Chamlong.
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9 Nganadeeleg // Feb 22, 2010 at 4:57 pm
Anonymous: Are you really disputing whether Thaksin/TRT (irrespective of all his many faults) provided an ‘eye opening’ to those masses?
Also are you saying in your opinion Chamlong & Sondhi are the equal of Mussolini when it comes to fascist rhetoric?
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10 Srithanonchai // Feb 22, 2010 at 4:59 pm
I’d rather not say anything critical this time around, only note that I cannot really see any provocative remarks in the text. Also, “anonymous” has pointed to a number of things already.
Regarding the reference with Italy’s past, I would like to point to the Weimar Republic, and what Max Weber had said, in 1917 (when he thought about the future of parliamentarism in post-war Germany, given the strong rejection of this idea and the associated practice by many fellow German intellectuals at that time) about the need for democracies to subdue the “bureaucracy” (both military and civil) with its in-built “enormous superiority.”
Needless to say, the democratization literature has long treated the military as “veto actors,” long before Prem came up with his “jockey” metaphor in 2006 for putting Thaksin in his place. From this perspective, the proposition that the military should get out of Thai politics is rather commonsensical, but not really shockingly innovative, since it has been a staple in the past few decades of political discourse in and about Thailand.
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11 Federico // Feb 22, 2010 at 5:54 pm
anonymous: a brief response to some your queries and criticisms.
1. “Can Dr. Frederico even understand any Thai?”
Yes, I read Thai. Thank you for allowing me to clarify.
2. “Every Thai I have ever met has long known that Thai democracy is a fraud.”
Perhaps. But most of them didn’t really do much about it until now — especially the rural population, which up until very recently was routinely portrayed as passive and uninterested in politics. I think it is safe to say that this is no longer the case. Besides, there are certain aspects of “Thai-style democracy” one never heard questioned as late as 2006.
3. ““Forced to accept at gunpoint.” Oh yes, the “masses” have always been threatened by violence, and now they have had enough and are standing up because they have finally realized that they are getting the shaft.”
Yes, the threat of violence was always pretty much there whenever any sizable group of Thais were mobilized in a movement for genuine democratization. By “forced to accept at gunpoint,” I was referring to the treatment Sarit reserved to dissidents at around the time this “social contract” was being crafted. A pretty fitting metaphor I would submit, given the latitude that Sarit had to order the execution without trial of those who disagreed with his rule.
4. “Yeah, and I suppose you might believe that separatist insurgents in the south are the vehicle for freeing the Patani people from those colonizing Thais.”
I don’t know what your point is here, but if you are insinuating that I am endorsing any violence you are way off. The state shoulders a great deal of responsibility for what’s going on in the south, but there is no justification for the atrocities that the insurgents have regularly carried out in the last 6-7 years.
5. “Go underdogs!!!”
I will confess that I believe in procedural democracy, freedom of speech, and a measure of economic opportunity. The same things, I might add, that hundreds of millions of people around the world already enjoy; not to mention the same things thousands of people in Thailand and elsewhere gave their lives to achieve. I know; it’s so laughably idealistic on my part to stand up for these things…
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12 Federico // Feb 22, 2010 at 6:16 pm
One more thing for anonymous:
6. “Is Dr. Frederico inspired by some Noam Chomsky he recently read, the kind of material that a young activist might substitute for analysis?”
I don’t read Chomsky. I have, however, read the work of Pridi Banomyong and Jit Poumisak. I have taught myself Thai over the past three years. I have spent months talking to regular people in Bangkok and Buriram. And I have put a great deal of time into crafting what remains, by all standards, an imperfect analysis.
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13 Arthurson // Feb 22, 2010 at 6:41 pm
In the spirit of “Are you kidding me?” it seems appropriate to mention that the Bangkok movie houses are now showing numerous “welovetheking” website propaganda pieces. In addition to the King’s anthem, there were 3 of these trailers shown in the cinema on Sunday afternoon, Feb. 21, during the 35 minutes prior to the main feature. This occurred prior to the 4:10 p.m. showing of the English language romantic comedy ‘Valentines Day’, so I assume they played in all of the movie theatres, especially the more well attended Thai language films.
The second piece was particularly offensive (to me, although it was slick enough to be a real emotion grabber for others), because it portrays a near apocalyptic scenario with rioting in the streets of Bangkok, the Parliament House on fire with helicopter noises and images of a helicopter hovering nearby, hospital ER staff rushing to attend to young people with bloody wounds and bandages, and foreign tourists cowering in fear and stranded once again because the BKK international airport is once again shut down. The message is blunt and clear: do not protest the status quo and shun those who come to Bangkok to protest, because they will stir up trouble, violence, and economic collapse, and this shame will be the dire consequence for everyone. It said quite clearly, “we are all Thais who love the King.”
This leads to an interesting question. Who is paying for the placement of these trailers? Are they PSA’s being shown for free by the theatre owners? I wonder because some of the special effects looked similar to the advertisements produced to promote the “King of Kings” light shows during the week surrounding HMK’s birthday. I believe it was Newin and BJT who funded that extravaganza.
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14 whoopla // Feb 22, 2010 at 8:12 pm
Excellent article Federico and thanks for the balanced response to your detractors – may I add, some people just cant get over themselves, with commenters ruffling their feathers, having “travelled through-out Thailand apparently longer than you, indeed over a longer period than most” sort of entitles them to have more authority on the subject you have brough forth? BTW, cris beale, Mr. Beaumont was never a journalist for the Nation, but a proofreader. That such an honourable and unbiased institution allowed him an occasional solipscistic column not a jornalist makes him. Not sure how he or your visits to FAO are relevant to this article, other than a venue to blow your own trumpet.
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15 panmoria // Feb 22, 2010 at 8:29 pm
@Arthurson
I avoid since quite some time to arrive in time for a movie in Thailand.
Be some 20 minutes too late. That’s the perfect time to sit down and remain seated.
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16 MediaWar // Feb 23, 2010 at 8:41 am
Hobby (7)
that was a very neat exposure !
by the way – I am glad and in fact LOVE it that Federico has quoted Mussolini and compared his fascist demagoguery with what PAD is still preaching.
I was telling all along :
No Pasaran PADshists !
good to see that more people wake up to the reality – that PADshists are alike fascists.
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17 MediaWar // Feb 23, 2010 at 11:53 am
since my previous comment / reply to anonymous #5 has not been approved (which makes me think it wouldn’t be approved), I’ll try to be more mild on this second attempt.
some almost 200 years ago (187 to be precise) one poet wrote :
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18 Jonas M // Feb 23, 2010 at 1:25 pm
What an inspiring and entertaining pieace of opinion this was! I can not say that I agreed with everything but that is besides the point. I want more of this. Dr Federico is not holding back but letting it all out. It feels very refreshing and I hope others with similar knowledge and abilities will get up from their trenches and show the same spirit.
Thank You, Federico
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19 alibaba // Feb 23, 2010 at 1:26 pm
Arthurson, I also saw what you saw when I went to see avatar and other recent movies. At first, I was at a loss as to what these are all about. However, I begin to understand later this is the same message that Mr. Panitan tried to convey at FCCT, namely “rule of law”. Sitting at the back near the entrance due to packed room, my friends and I tried to count how many times the word “rule of law” was mentioned in the short speech.
Now that the democrats are in power because someone betrayed Thaksin, not because they win an election, these people are talking about the rule of law. However, when they were in opposition and PAD broke the law by seizing the Govt House, the same people including Abhisit himself even visited PAD mobsters. How ironic !
Three cheeers to FCCT for hosting the event. I suggest they invite Sean Boonprasong as the next speaker.
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20 polo // Feb 23, 2010 at 5:43 pm
A little breathless, if not hysterical, as if all this was new, imho. The army is behaving as it always has, and every elected government struggles between it and democratic rule.
Thus it is not really true to say Thai democracy means an elected government SHOULD not try to control the military. Thai democracy is in fact about the struggle of elected governments trying to control the military, and the public support for that. It is only the military itself and its palace backers who believe the government should not control the military.
What’s new today is succession to Vajiralongkorn juxtaposed with the rise of egomaniac Thaksin, and one has to address the question: in the situation now, with an potentially extremely destabilising scenario confronting the monarchy like none before, can the army claim a more valid/justifiable reason for its rejection of civilian management? Is this what the army is acting on, or is it the traditional kneejerk defense of its turf and privileges?
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21 Tench // Feb 23, 2010 at 9:36 pm
Polo: umm… V. is supposed to become a constitutional monarch. The military can claim a “valid/justifiable reason for its rejection of civilian management” if they first admit V. is going to be involved in civilian management.
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22 Federico // Feb 23, 2010 at 10:17 pm
Polo: I never claimed that the things I said were “new.” I just thought they were timely. Judging from the (not unanimously positive) reaction of the crowd (both Thai and expatriate), I think it was the right call to offer remarks along these lines.
As for the tone, I thought I could get away with a little passion given the venue and the potential gravity of the situation.
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23 Thai democracy…aree you kidding me?-New Mandala « FACT – Freedom Against Censorship Thailand // Feb 24, 2010 at 12:55 am
[...] http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2010/02/21/are-you-kidding-me/ [...]
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24 Frank Lee // Feb 24, 2010 at 1:39 am
Two words to bear in mind re Thaksin’s track record come Judgement Day this Friday, Feb 29: snack box
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25 Timothy McCrystle // Feb 24, 2010 at 4:22 pm
Federico- Why have you not read Noam Chomsky? Regardless of its relevance to this particular case, he is a brilliant thinker who, perhaps better than most, espouses “procedural democracy, freedom of speech, and a measure of economic opportunity.”
You analysis here is very well thought out and, sadly, not really that difficult a conclusion to reach for anyone with a marginal education. The Thaksin camp, however, did nothing while in office to actually support or improve the quality of the lives of the people who are supporting it, as far as I could tell. It was more of the same in a different costume- old landed aristocracy being supplanted by new money 20th century aristocracy. Thaksin rose to his position by selling telecommunications equipment to the Burmese junta, he murdered thousands in his war on drugs, and he acted with single-minded greed and conceit in most of his dealings. I’m not sure how this is an improvement.
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26 Peter // Feb 24, 2010 at 5:18 pm
re: Timothy
I don’t think Federico can be understood to be arguing in favor of Thaksin in THAILAND UNHINGED. His main point is that the constant return of the “Generals” and those behind them to “save Thailand” and “Thai Democracy” is actually what is stopping Thai Democracy from ever happening……..
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27 polo // Feb 24, 2010 at 5:55 pm
Tench: I wasn’t clear. It is an issue of whether the military brass — or those guided by Prem at least — truly believe the institution of the monarchy itself is at threat in the succession, and can thus justify their stance based on defending a constitution-based institution. I am not saying there IS a genuine threat; just asking whether they really think there is one. And whether that would make their behaviour now qualitatively different from the past when they manufactured threats to protect their privileges.
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28 Tench // Feb 24, 2010 at 7:57 pm
Polo, that’s a fair, worrying point. And in their cloistered, hot-house world, who knows?
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29 Timothy // Feb 25, 2010 at 3:58 am
Good point, Peter. I guess having lived through the Thaksin years reading the second- and third-to-last paragraphs made me catch my breath as I don’t exactly agree with his analysis of where the hearts of the Red shirts lay, and my response was thus reactionary.
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30 chris beale // Feb 26, 2010 at 1:33 am
Frderico – you say you’ve been to Buriram.
But that is Khmer Isaarn.
And as other NM posts mention, Newin Chidchob’s BhumJaiTai is very strong in Buriram, though not universally popular.
I think the real main story of what is happening in “Thailand” is not in Bangkok or Buriram. It is happening in LAO Isaarn.
We are witnessing something very different from the old adage of
‘”Thai” governments being made in the provinces, and broken in Bangkok’.
Now the provinces – 38 of them, if the military’s moves are anything to go by – and especially LAO Isaarn are no longer willing to submit to this adage. They want THEIR government back – or, I believe – they will eventually secede from “Thailand”.
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31 กำลังเล่นตลกกันหรือ.. « Liberal Thai // Feb 27, 2010 at 12:04 am
[...] by chapter 11 Are you kidding me? February 21, 2010 by Federico Ferrara ที่มา – New Mandala แปลและเรียบเรียง – แชพเตอร์ [...]
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32 michael // Feb 27, 2010 at 5:59 pm
cb #27 : There you go again with your theory re. Esan wanting to secede from Thailand. Despite having been asked by various posters on NM to show us some evidence that there may be a movement along these lines, you continue to be silent. Your assertion seems most unlikely, silly even.
The opposite would appear to be the fact: Esan people want to be included to a greater extent in the rights & privileges of Thai nationality. They are sick of being excluded. I haven’t met a single person from the area near Laos who has expressed any interest in joining that country.
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33 chris beale // Mar 1, 2010 at 7:07 pm
Michael – Bangkok Post or Nation featured an article last year, in which they reported the government as warning there was a movement to divide the regions against each other, through-out the whole country – not simply Pattani.
I read this way before I started posting anything on NM. I’ve certainly got no connection whatsoever to any Thai political movement, least of all any such as this. I’ve never been active politically in Thailand at all, during any of my many visits, over decades. If you think this is “silly” I suggest you look up the article, and give that label to the government agencies which were saying it !
But this article did get me thinking (I suggest you try that!).
Two decades ago, when I travelled through Pattani and southern Thailand you would have been called “silly” for suggesting what is happening there now. It was a lovely, peaceful place.
“Esan people want to be included to a greater extent in the rights & privileges of Thai nationality. They are sick of being excluded.”
Of course they do – I’ve only SUGGESTED if they continue to be excluded, now having had their expectations raised by Thaksin, that if widespread violence is used against them (eg. through a pro-PAD coup), then the country will increasingly split into MILITARISED polarised regions reflecting the already polarised vote : this means secession.
It means an independent ISAARN.
I never said an independent Isaarn would necessarily join the PDR.
But it is highly likely the PDR would come to Isaarn’s aid.
As for “I haven’t met a single person from the area near Laos who has expressed any interest in joining that country” :
Sorry, but I’ve met MANY who expressed sorrow about “the broken heart” – i.e. the separation of formerly Siam co-joined Lao and Isaarn.
And want this division – like Germans wanted Berlin’s Wall down – to now end.
This may happen peacefully – I hope it does – but not if there is a bloody, pro-PAD (which wants to disenfranchise Isaarn) coup.
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34 rirkrit // Mar 2, 2010 at 5:03 am
You must be kidding! Is correct, I must retort back, “YOU must be kidding” Federico Ferrera! I am surprised at the level of alarmist rhetoric recounted here by our Harvard scholar… sorry I’m too far away in the provincial smoked out valleys of Lanna to ever have a chance to attend such a well casted panel discussion.
But lets just say that, you are correct to be alarmed by the speech of a retired General. And we know that such a speech anticipates the on set of yet another electorally legitimate (question mark always) governments demise. But to make it short, Thailand is on the verge of a great crisis, far greater than the annual / perennial (to be so botanical and lush) coup d’etat we commonly experience every now and again. This land of smiles and ever resilient nation of uncolonised people, is about to face (perhaps as all troupe of colors appear) an identity crisis of epic proportions. But no one seems to be able to address it quite so clearly or rather, just quite yet.
Perhaps as an Italian you may have better hindsight into the flux of how turbulent a republic state is formed, and how all parties of the privilege political class aligned and stabbed one another in the back to raise to power? Is it only the generals and soldiers or perhaps people with guns in their hands who we should fear and or distrust? What have your research found then in Indonesia or the Philippines or even in such a great Democratic nation such as India able to speak of about its formation as a republic state, that you seem to imply of the unimaginable remark “are you kidding me!” here in this undemocratic nepotistic elitist out of touch with the state of the people’s such as Thailand?
But touch or to be in touch, is the privilege of an academic, a scholar as supposed to bureaucrats self-serving interests, or a Prime Minister and or businessman or government spokesperson. But to say “I will confess that I believe in procedural democracy, freedom of speech, and a measure of economic opportunity. The same things, I might add, that hundreds of millions of people around the world already enjoy; not to mention the same things thousands of people in Thailand and elsewhere gave their lives to achieve. I know; it’s so laughably idealistic on my part to stand up for these things…” is your privilege.
I have been voting in this country since I was 21, and believe me I have never seen the result which reflects my beliefs. So, from my personal experience your statement is at best privileged and naive in this case. When you say “hundreds of millions of people around the world” does this actually include Italy? Again, that’s simply out of touch and as you say laughably idealistic. But again it would be easy for us Thais to dismiss most commentaries by foreign scholars, commentators ex-pats and so forth, simply because you do not exist in my space, nor the amount of Thai you study or travel to the furthest ends of god forsaken places get you any closer, really. The Thais will have to slug it out ourselves and no matter how well read and researched one could passionately and scientifically be, there is always the difference of culture. So, yes, YOU MUST BE KIDDING. We have always existed in violence, impressed on us by your intellectualism your idealism and your well meaning democracy, well meaning freedom of speech and measure of economic parity.
But I have been to Napoli and Calabria, and I felt the same raise of passion in Italy, and questions of existence without the oppression of violence with out oppressive disposition of privileges and class structures, but I will not pretend to even begin to give a lecture to Italians about my feelings, we have our own problems and our own crisis to resolve. Fascism or speak of fascism is as oppressive on your opponents freedom to express their ideology as your interpretation of their oppressive speech, this has been the problem of all sides in this battle of democracy, battle of free speech, battle to end economic disparity, you speak of fascism to oppress the others speech! We should listen and form our opinion and make choices and in the end we go to vote and we hope that our rights are not trampled on by vote buying, by rigged electoral districts, by political mafias in all strata of life, by old generals and higher institutions.
I am happy there are red shirts and yellow shirts and green shirts and pink shirts, they are all expressing their right to make their opinion heard, what I am not so thrill with is having Italian scholars tell us what we are and what we are not, or that one opinion is more or less supportable or that one demand of democracy is more democratic that the other. For the first time I am happy to see communists walking next to fascists (a matter of opinion), when not too long ago it was unmentionable to be one and not the other, or to have such a website which continues to thrive unhindered (so far). The rule of law, which some made comments on are not a matter to skirt off, even though one rightly observes and hopes that all will be brought to stand and answer to the rule of law.
Correctly the notion of double standard should be pressed by the people, but not as a tactic to evade the wrongs one has perpetuated, and I would say that in this country everyone is implicated and implicit. (Sounds like Italy, no?) But to conclude, its like being in a scenario of a Tarantino or a John Woo moment when everyone is pointing their guns at each other (the gangsters, the police, the corrupted officials, and people with their colored shirts), and a lot of us (perhaps not the people you have met) are ready to sit down (out here in the provincial outback of dark skinned and oppressed people) and wait out the gun fight where at the end of it all we will emerge, and realize the republic that is by the people for the people.
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35 Nganadeeleg // Mar 2, 2010 at 10:06 pm
Rirkrit: Are you advocating limiting peoples access to information?
That’s been tried already (still is), but its obviously a losing battle in this age of ommunication.
As you say, Thai’s are resilient/uncolonised etc – so why blame the farang for your own problems?
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36 Federico // Mar 3, 2010 at 2:30 am
“rirkrit”: It looks like the moderators have decided not to run my rather snippy original response (probably a good call), so let me provide you with a more measured one.
1. “I am surprised at the level of alarmist rhetoric recounted here by our Harvard scholar.”
If you know anything about this country’s history (not exactly clear from your comments), I don’t think you can make the case that the language I used is especially “alarmist.” The things I was referring to are part of a pattern that has been repeated several times in the past 50 or so years.
2. “But lets just say that, you are correct to be alarmed by the speech of a retired General. And we know that such a speech anticipates the on set of yet another electorally legitimate (question mark always) governments demise. But to make it short, Thailand is on the verge of a great crisis, far greater than the annual / perennial (to be so botanical and lush) coup d’etat we commonly experience every now and again. This land of smiles and ever resilient nation of uncolonised people, is about to face (perhaps as all troupe of colors appear) an identity crisis of epic proportions. But no one seems to be able to address it quite so clearly or rather, just quite yet.”
I don’t know what this means.
3. “Perhaps as an Italian you may have better hindsight into the flux of how turbulent a republic state is formed, and how all parties of the privilege political class aligned and stabbed one another in the back to raise to power?”
I have some insight. But your point is?
4. “I have been voting in this country since I was 21, and believe me I have never seen the result which reflects my beliefs. So, from my personal experience your statement is at best privileged and naive in this case.”
I haven’t voted since 1996. Your point is?
5. “What have your research found then in Indonesia or the Philippines or even in such a great Democratic nation such as India able to speak of about its formation as a republic state, that you seem to imply of the unimaginable remark “are you kidding me!” ”
Again, I don’t know what this means but the remark “are you kidding me” was only directed at Dr. Panitan’s words —in particular, the idea that his government is the embodiment of democracy and the rule of law (something rather ridiculous by the standards of any country).
6. “When you say “hundreds of millions of people around the world” does this actually include Italy?”
For the most part yes. Italy has lots of problems — some seemingly intractable. However, look at most indicators of the quality of life, individual rights, and access to government services. When most people in Thailand enjoy the same rights and opportunities most Italians have, I will probably become as bored with Thailand as I am with Italy and write about something else. I hope that happens sooner rather than later. In the meantime, I don’t question the right of foreign academics to comment on Italian problems on account of their race or nationality. In fact, many of these people know way more about it than I do.
7. “We have always existed in violence, impressed on us by your intellectualism your idealism and your well meaning democracy, well meaning freedom of speech and measure of economic parity.”
Most of the violence Thais have experienced was at the hands of their own masters; my “idealism” has never killed anyone, though several people in Thailand and elsewhere have, indeed, gotten killed by their own government for expressing similar ideas.
8. “Fascism or speak of fascism is as oppressive on your opponents freedom to express their ideology as your interpretation of their oppressive speech”
I simply pointed out the similarity in the doctrines by citing a specific passage in a well-known writing. How this is “oppressive” I don’t know.
9. “What I am not so thrill with is having Italian scholars tell us what we are and what we are not.”
Well, that you are not “thrill” is apparent, but you will have to deal with the lack of “thrill” because this is the kind of thing I am paid to do. I wasn’t aware there was a citizenship test one needs to pass to study a particular country, nor that you were qualified to administer such test. Besides, it looks like the translation of my remarks into Thai (see comment 28 above) didn’t meet with the sort of hissy fit you have thrown here. So perhaps the problem here is your xenophobia more than it is my insolence.
10. “Correctly the notion of double standard should be pressed by the people, but not as a tactic to evade the wrongs one has perpetuated.”
If you are referring to Thaksin here, I agree.
11. “Perhaps not the people you have met…”
The people I have met tend to be pissed — unlike you, they tend to be rather more concerned with the injustices perpetrated by their own rulers than they are with speeches given by foreign academics.
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37 michael // Mar 3, 2010 at 2:59 am
Chris B @ 30: One article, “… last year…” in one of the Thai English newspapers, “… in which they reported the government as warning there was a movement to divide the regions against each other, through-out the whole country – not simply Pattani.” is not sufficient to get me thinking along the lines you have been. Especially when one considers all the other things the government has been suggesting in order to manufacture fear & suspicion amongst the populace.
I don’t have time to go through all your posts for the last few months in order to find the one I referred to re. joining up with Laos, however in the thread http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2010/01/19/the-return-of-thailands-old-friend/ , I’ve picked out the following from your various posts:
” If there’s another coup, there’s no more “Thailand” :Isaarn and Lanna break-away.” ;
“THIS is Thailand’s Boston Tea Party. There is no more “Thailand”. Isaarn is an independent state, fighting against monarchist dictatorship.”;
“Make no mistake about this ***** ******* – if there is a coup now there will be no more Thailand. Thailand burns – and Isaarn breaks free : under Chinese protection.” (Sorry about the asterisks – I’m a coward when it comes to LM )
I think you may have been doing a little too much “thinking”. I’m surprised at your sensitivity to the articles of Thai English media in regard to the pronouncements of government. Most of my friends laugh at them.
As to your assertions that “…it is highly likely the PDR would come to Isaarn’s aid.” and that Isaan would break free ” under Chinese protection.”, I think they are fanciful, to say the very least.
When I first travelled in Thailand in 1975 (twice), I was not interested in Southern politics – central politics were far more interesting. (I know this is irrelevant, as is your reference to 2 decades ago, but I couldn’t resist dropping it in, just in case you thought I was impressed with the mantle of expertise you assign yourself due to your not- unusually long connection.) Silly, really!
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38 Srithanonchai // Mar 3, 2010 at 3:22 pm
This thread really is an apotheosis of the commentariat…
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39 Benny // Mar 3, 2010 at 9:17 pm
“This thread really is an apotheosis of the commentariat…”
I looked up the definition of apothesis and I still don’t know what you mean, Sri. It sounds quite a pertinent comment but could you be more explanatory. Could you be
less succinct and more verbose, please?
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40 Joy // Mar 4, 2010 at 11:09 am
Rirkrit wrote”…again it would be easy for us Thais to dismiss most commentaries by foreign scholars, commentators ex-pats and so forth, simply because you do not exist in my space, nor the amount of Thai you study or travel to the furthest ends of god forsaken places get you any closer, really. The Thais will have to slug it out ourselves and no matter how well read and researched one could passionately and scientifically be, there is always the difference of culture”
Yes of course there is a difference of culture, which is not always bad.I have observed that some Thai scholars also love to comment about the West/Western culture and they definitely don’t want what they said to be dismissed easily (and because they are seniors, their juniors of course have to pretend to agree with them, most of the time, or at least not argue against them openly (in everyday Thai contexts)). It’s actually clear that these senior Thai academics want their juniors or students to take their opinions as valid (although at times they appear quite reactionary ). I think it’s fine for you to disagree with criticisms from foreign scholars but I would love to hear your opinion abt defensive Thai sholars who perhaps can create misunderstanding, and unreasonable pride abt Thai culture among Thais more than others.
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41 michael // Mar 4, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Benny #36 Madame Sri was rather sarcastically and pompously putting down the self-made gods who, having not enough to do with their time, clutter up the airspace with their trivial and misconceived pronouncements, begging for credibility by pushing forward the length of their connection with Thailand & dropping irrelevant names, or their ‘Thainess’ (notwithstanding the incomprehensibility of their superficially elaborate English). Get it? Got it? Good!
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42 Srithanonchai // Mar 4, 2010 at 4:43 pm
Michael/Benny:
Now, Benny should surely appreciate the degree of verbosity (sounds like verbal abuse) of your comment. The use of “pompously” truly made me feel noijai! And, please, I am still “mademoiselle.”
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43 Benny // Mar 4, 2010 at 7:37 pm
Yes Sri, I do appreciate Michael’s verbosity rather than your pithy, humorous, eccentric and cheeky input with its short and sweetness trumping the long and involved.
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44 michael // Mar 4, 2010 at 7:59 pm
Dearest Mlle SriT@42: Pray, do not feel bad. Pomposity (&verbosity) can be fun – as if you didn’t know!
BTW, on the one occasion you identified your gender, I’m sure you wrote, “It’s Mrs.”
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45 chris beale // Mar 4, 2010 at 9:26 pm
Michael :
1) If you find my comments so “silly”, what do you think of Giles Ungkaporn on seize the Palaces, etc. ?
2) What were you doing in Thailand in 1975 ?
3) Chinese protectorate – well it should be obvious even to an intellectual dilletante, that China would never let the Lao PDR be defeated, if the situation deteriorated to such an extent that the PDR was dragged into fighting in Isaarn between Bangkok troops and Isaarn soldiers.
4) I hope you are correct – I hope what I’ve been suggesting does indeed turn out to be “silly”.
But a break-up of the fascist-construct “Thailand” into even a more federal, more democratic Siam, appears increasingly to look more like going the way of former Yugoslavia, than the peaceful separation of Czechoslovakia.
5) I indeed hope I’m being too pessimistic, “silly” even.
It does seem that Her Majesty The Queen may be exercising a mild, tempering influence.
Certainly cooler, wiser heads seem to have prevented a disasterous coup-attempt while General Anupong was in the US.
HMQ has over recent years brokered some excellent compromises – eg. Bangkok’s Chuwit Park episode – which also raised the country’s moral tone.
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46 Srithanonchai // Mar 5, 2010 at 5:03 pm
Benny:
I try not to leave too much money, and spend too much time, in the Internet cafe in my soi, while having my lunch break. So, if I can, I’ll try to be short, which also doesn’t unduly interrupt the time of those who yearn for more genuine verbosity than I will ever be able to provide.
Michael:
You’ve got a good memory–congratulations (itcha jing jing)! You using “Madame” gave me the idea of adding my marital status to the gender picture (although it should probably have been “Fraeulein,” but the French sounded more appropriate). Not that this would matter in any way, and, as I might add, dichan pen soot tae mai sot kha.
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47 michael // Mar 6, 2010 at 2:23 am
cb #45 – I don’t wish to engage in a stangtrepish exchange, so I will be brief: 1. I always find Ji’s stuff interesting, although I am not a communist sympathiser & I disagree with some of what he says. The style of rhetoric he often uses is ‘agitprop’. It has its uses; 2. In 1975 I was minding my own business; 3. Sticks & stones may break my bones, etc. 4. re. Laos & China, why on earth would they want to spend the money, upset the diplomatic apple-cart, etc., etc. on a project that would have no return? (Is there, e.g., OIL in Esaan?) It IS a silly, misconceived hypothesis (a wank, in fact). 5. I don’t think your slightly complimentary comments re. *You-Said-Who* will get you off the hook; you’ve already been most unwise, & in print! Shame on you! BTW, it’s extremely unlikely that a coup has been considered in the recent past – the powers that be have their own forms of agitprop, false ‘leaks’ being one of them.
Finally, I believe that there will not be a revolution, or even a popular armed uprising, although it apparently suits some vested interests to give out that there will be. It would take attractive ideas, unity, skillful organisation, a plan about what to do in the event of winning – all of which are absent. It’s all noise.
Now toddle off to bed & wait for The Knock.
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48 Chris Beale // Mar 9, 2010 at 3:45 pm
Michael –
Re. your #4 : history is full of examples where countries find themselves in positions they did not wish for, where situations spin of control. “Man makes history, but not in circumstances of his choosing”..
Your : “It would take attractive ideas, unity, skillful organisation, a plan about what to do in the event of winning” : like I said the situation is spinning out of control.
Re. your #5 : you’ve obviously not been reading either the Bangkok
Post or Nation thoroughly over the period leading up to and during Anupong’s US visit, when there was extensive reporting of the imminence of a coup, only cancelled at the last moment, according to one report. Go back to sleep – and wait for reality to knock you on your head !!
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49 More from Ferrara on Thai politics // Mar 24, 2010 at 11:10 am
[...] [...]
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50 D // Mar 27, 2010 at 6:12 pm
The case for Isan and literacy as presented to Thai media.
English, the language of international business and tourism, has rules and precedents in spelling and pronunciation. Northeast Thailand is not exempt from these rules.
Look at the conflicting attempts to write an English word conveying the pronunciation ee’-sahn.
It cannot be E-san or I-san. Hyphenation connects two words. So what is the E in E-san or the I in I-san? But they did get it half right. Go here http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/san and click the speaker button and listen to a correct pronunciation for san. Maybe you have ordered a Caesar salad or spaghetti at some point in your life and you flavored it by sprinkling it with Parmesan. Go here if you need a correct pronunciation for san in the word Parmesan http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/parmesan. The second syllable has to be san.
It cannot be Isaan. Show me an English word with the letter a back-to-back like that. The closest thing is a proper name, Isaac, which turns the I long and flattens the second syllable, viz., \ˈī-zik, -zək\. Merriam-Webster online lists no English words spelled with aa, and they list only one obscure geographical French word. It cannot be Isaan. There is no English precedent.
It cannot be Esan. Merriam-Webster online lists no words that begin esa and only one that begins essa, as in essay and the e is short (ĕ) not long per the correct pronunciation http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/essay. It cannot be Esan because this would be pronounced eh’-sahn or worse.
The letter i has a multitude of occurrences in written English where it is pronounced like long ē, e.g., Isuzu, Iraqi, Iranian, Pepsi, magazine, proletariat, gymnasium, variant, pronunciation, deviation, marine, ad infinitum.
English is the most prevalent language in the world, but the world is also influenced linguistically by its second most prevalent language, Spanish. The letter i is always pronounced ē in Spanish, e.g., Mexico, Argentina, Sevilla, ciudad, piña colada, Tijuana.
When Thai language is represented in written English you have the same precedent, to wit, Siam, Si Sa Ket, Phimai, Saraburi, Krabi, Udon Thani, Samui, etc.
The mandate, especially for all Thai media, is to correctly write and pronounce Thailand’s authentic northeastern provinces by calling them as they have been called by scholarly folks for nearly half a century. Anybody who bothers to walk through the old museum in Khon Kaen City can read Isan in all the documentation of the region. This is how they spelled it before Thailand had international business and tourism. It is confusing and counterproductive to reinvent the Isan wheel by making it square, trapezoidal, oval, and triangular…all on the same vehicle.
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51 chris beale // Mar 28, 2010 at 7:14 pm
D#50 – good point re. correct spelling for Isan.
But re. “The mandate, especially for all Thai media, is to correctly write and pronounce Thailand’s authentic northeastern provinces by calling them as they have been called by scholarly folks for nearly half a century” – yes : I agree.
In other words, there is a Standard Isan, just as there is a Standard Thai or English (within various branches of English, eg. British English, American English, Australian English, etc.).
But the fact remains, languages-as-spoken frequently do not stick to their standard form. “Esarn”, Esaarn”, “Isaarn”, “Isarn”, or more slurred versions therof, is the name used locally – especially in the evening, after some lao khao, ya dong, or other Thai whiskey !!
And then, there’s the problem of correct TRANSLITERATION and the numerous discussions /debates over that.
You’ve raised a very thorny problem. Any comments Frank Lee ?
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52 BKK lawyer // Mar 29, 2010 at 1:43 am
D #50: Are you being facetious? Roman transliteration of Thai words is based on Thai conventions, not English conventions. Some make sense and some don’t. But don’t tell us Isaan can’t be spelled Isaan because of the way the non-Thai name Isaac is pronounced.
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53 D // Mar 29, 2010 at 2:37 am
Chris Beale#51 – So, it is okay to write Kris Beel or Cris Beil? If you are not Chris Beale it makes no difference, unless you are trying to find Chris Beale. But, if you are Chris Beale and need clients to find you, it can make all the difference in the world. And these alternate spellings of your name are correct in their conformance with English language precedents. Now imagine writing your name Kliius Byn.
If you are Isan and need to develop your destination identity in order to position your destination competitively as Authentic Isan: Thailand’s Safe Clean Adventure Destination, you can’t have media taking illiterate license with your identity.
As for transliteration to English, inventing words or guessing without regard to English fundamentals and precedents is just plain lazy and illiterate. Publishing such scrabblety-gook because you’ve seen somebody else publish it is shoddy incompetence.
I got a Chinese lady friend in L.A. a job in a Chinese physician’s office, also my friend; true story. He was born in Bejing and she was born in Hong Kong. Their native tongues are Mandarin and Cantonese, respectively. Of course, being an M.D. in Santa Monica requires English and during his dictation of a letter, my lady friend wrote “Please contact me about the case of your red-skinned penis.” When the doc proofread the letter, he was glad he did. What he had said was, “Please contact me about the case of your red-skinned peanuts.”
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54 Ralph Kramden // Mar 29, 2010 at 1:01 pm
Let’s just call the region the Lao provinces. That better fits the political, economic and social reality. Perhaps, if CB’s ideas come to reality it will be South-western Laos….
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55 D // Mar 29, 2010 at 6:48 pm
BKK lawyer#52 – Now comes the plaintiff, pro se, requesting the court of public opinion in the above entitled matter for an Order of Summary Judgment.
Of course I am saying it cannot be Isaan, but not solely based on the word singled-out by BKK Lawyer Esq. as the sum total of his or her arguement. Can you be stopped from writing Isaan? Of course not. Certain American parents for years have invented names for their kids and put spellings on birth certificates that defy literacy and linguistic convention. It is one thing to be illiterate; quite another to advertise it on the heads of your children. Some argue that names shape lives, but that is for another thread.
As for Roman transliteration, how far do you go? Roman numerals are cumbersome and the original Roman alphabet is absent the letters J and U. I guess you could write ?don Thani. Now I am being facetious, of course, but my position is one of practicality, being the representation of Thai words in English, which is the language of global commerce and travel. To base English language representations on Thai conventions might make sense if the English language representations were for Thai people, but the whole idea is to create words that allow non-Thais to communicate and locate.
If you try to apply Thai conventions to the English language, how far do you go? Areyousuggestingthatsnospacesseparatewords?
Isan is derived from the Balinese word (Isen) for Laos, part of which was annexed by Thailand during WWII.
“Laos traces its formal history (also see Early History of Laos) to the establishment of the Kingdom of Lan Xang (literally, “million elephants”) by King Fa Ngum in 1353. Under his rule, the wealthy and mighty kingdom covered the northeast region of present-day Thailand (Isan), all of Laos and present-day Stung Treng province of Cambodia.” [Wikipedia]
So, should both Thai and English transliterations be based on Balinese conventions? Or, would you go back to Indian language conventions from which Balinese is derived?
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56 laoguy // Mar 30, 2010 at 12:40 am
D #55
There are two major phonetic systems used on the planet, the APA (American
Phonetic Alphabet) and the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet). As the CIA
has invested the most in the study of the Thai language they get to call the shots.
No points for guessing which system their linguists use.
Thus, “isaan” (APA) vs “isa:n” (IPA). Vowel length is important in Thai.
Your insistence on “Isan” encourages the persistence of ignorance.
The derivation of Isan from the Balinese Isen is positively Chris Beale like.
I would suggest perhaps Khmer (eisaan) < Sanskrit (isaan).
(My apologies in advance for the lack of equally important tone diacritics, my computer doesn't support them.)
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Please note: New Mandala encourages vigorous debate. However, for the moment we will only be publishing high-quality comments that make original contributions to discussion. There will, of course, still be space for pithy, humorous, eccentric and cheeky input. Short and sweet will usually trump long and involved. Repetitive ranting, unimaginative point-scoring and idle abuse will not be entertained. Comments which carry a real name are also more likely to be approved. Thank you for your ongoing interest and contributions.