[This is a copy of the talk I presented to the Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Group's Annual Business Meeting on 27 March 2010 at the Association for Asian Studies Annual Meeting held in Philadelphia.]
Tonight I want to talk about imagining a new mandala in mainland Southeast Asia. It sounds a bit grandiose, so let’s bring it down to earth.
A useful starting point is this ramshackle shed on the bank of the Mekong river in the far north of Thailand.
I spent a lot of time in this shed in 1994 while I was doing my PhD research on cross border trading systems between Thailand, Laos and southern China. This shed, which lay just above Chiang Khong’s cargo port, was the operational headquarters of the Chiang Khong Cross-River Boat Operators Association. The 38 members of this association, using a carefully enforced roster system, carried cargo from the wholesale shops of Chiang Khong to the town of Houayxai on the opposite bank. This cargo was then loaded onto much larger Mekong river boats and despatched downstream to the ports of Paak Beng and Luangphrabang. What interested me about the cross-river boat operators was that while they were regular border crossers they certainly were not border transgressors. Their livelihoods depended on the strict regulation of the border and micro-control of the limited number of places where it could be crossed. This rag-tag group of men had succeeded in establishing monopoly control over the cross-river cargo trade between Chiang Khong and Huayxai.
In the Legend of the Golden Boat, I examined the various dimensions of this link between livelihood and regulatory power. Tonight, I want to emphasise one aspect of it: the intertwining of the boat operator’s authority and state power. At the most general level Chiang Khong’s boat operators, like the many other traders and transport operators I worked with, were engaged in the collaborative regulation of the national border. Their restrictive operational practices dovetailed with the more formal efforts of the Thai and Lao states to demarcate the border and, more importantly, to direct and tax passage across it. This institutional synergy, found day to day expression in social interaction between the boat operators, customs officials and immigration police and was facilitated by the exchange of a wide range of currencies ranging from cash itself, to food, alcohol, supernatural blessings and, perhaps most potent of all, pornographic videos. As I wrote at the time, “it is easy to be dazzled by the symbols of state power at the border – immigration posts, flags, boom gates, tight trousers and guns – but these are often integrated into, and support, local landscapes of power.”
My second opening vignette comes from the neighbouring province of Chiang Mai and is a product of much more recent fieldwork that I’ve been doing in the northern Thai village that I have called Ban Tiam. Here I found that I spent a lot of time talking about “projects” (khrongkan). This is one of them. It is a local organic fertiliser project. The project members are crushing “golden apple snails” so they can be used as the basis for liquid fertiliser. The snails are an introduced pest in rice fields in Thailand and the project paid villagers to collect them and bring them in for crushing. This project was established with contributions from the villagers themselves and a 20,000 baht grant from the local Watershed Protection Office. Other funds for the purchase of equipment were obtained from the Municipality and from the Department of Land Development. The son of the provincial assemblyman was appointed as an adviser to the group. The liquid fertiliser was one of the project’s first major activities. Many farmers within Ban Tiam were sceptical about the cost and technical viability of the fertiliser, but officials in the Watershed Protection Office and the Municipality considered the project to be successful in demonstrating Ban Tiam’s collective solidarity and its environmental credentials.
Development projects like this are often interpreted as providing a basis for extending the power of the state, albeit often in technically neutral terms that masks the political content of the development process. This is Ferguson’s famous “anti-politics machine.” We read a lot about the role of development schemes in national projects for civilisation and improvement, creating manageable subjects and implementing neo-liberal visions of self-regulating individuals by implanting government at a distance.
Of course, the projects I have been looking at in Ban Tiam do play a role in extending state power. The fertiliser project, for example, promotes an environmentalist and sufficiency economy orthodoxy that has become popular in some Thai government agencies. However I am more interested in looking at projects as sites were new types of power are condensed and created. In the tradition of some important work done in mainland southeast Asia, perhaps potency, auspiciousness or power-protection would be better words to use than power with its all too common connotation of domination. The beauty of local development projects is that they provide villagers with an institutional framework for concentrating and domesticating state power. They are auspicious site of development, where the forces of the state are productively bound with local livelihoods and with the moral appeal of community. These projects are certainly not “anti-politics machines” that conceal the expansion of state power behind neutral and technical practice. On the contrary: the predominant vision created in Ban Tiam’s development projects is of a state that is bound to society, embedded in local relationships and caught up in its webs of exchange. Projects are explicitly productive of this political society in which non-standard, non-technical and personalised forms of government predominate and in which state power is drawn into intimate domains. In performing this domesticating function, development projects can be thought of as spirit shrines for the state; much like the boat operator’s shed in Chiang Khong, which is a typically ramshackle shrine that creatively draws together various types of regulatory power that are in play along the border.
This is the approach that informs my imagining of a new mandala – a new way of thinking about power, space and state-society relations in mainland southeast Asia, especially in rural areas.
The old mandala is well known to us. It is a centre-oriented configuration, in which power radiates outwards from a pre-eminent centre, with smaller nodes of radiating power nested within the hierarchy. The centre is dominant: politically, economically and, of course, spiritually. In standard account of the modern spatial reorganisation of mainland southeast Asia the nested hierarchy of mandalas has been displaced by territorial and administrative incorporation into modern nation states. Classic accounts of modern state-based power draw attention to the displacement of former systems of muang and mandala and focus on the creation of standardised and clearly demarcated administrative grids. In this modern system power is extended from the centre not by radiating outwards but by a more intrusive penetration into the day-to-day realities of economy and society. Customs officers, border posts, development projects and watershed offices are typically portrayed as being part of that process of modern incorporation within bounded nation states and the displacement of former systems of socio-spatial organisation.
My interest is in exploring new models of power that get away from this popular account of the life and death of the old mandala. In starting with a rustic river bank shed and a local fertiliser project I am taking up a call made by Deborah Tooker in a 1996 paper that argued for “putting the Mandala in its place.” Tooker suggests that historical sources tend to reproduce elite models of power – the mandala is a classic example – and that ethnographic fieldwork can provide alternative visions. I agree with her, but I think this ethnographic quest in mainland southeast Asia has been overly constrained by a preoccupation with contestation and resistance to the penetrative incorporation of the modern nation state. Anthropologists have been primarily interested in documenting political and cultural sites that lie at the margins of power, or beyond it, or which contest modern structures. Anthropologists fell in love with Zomia, even before they knew that was its name. Sometimes this is expressed nostalgically, and not without a dash of pan-Thai sentiment, as a quest for a culturally revitalised mandala structure, with a greater Thai world displacing the nation state and extending outwards to embrace Laos, parts of Burma and chip away at the margins of China and India. The obsession with an anti-capitalist and anti-state community culture and sufficiency economy reflects a similar yearning for a pre-modern mandala-like arrangement in which an exemplary centre of royalists, bureaucrats, academics and NGOs lays down a moral template for the edification of non-assertive and relatively autonomous rural satellites.
What I want to do is to propose a new mandala, one that avoids both misplaced nostalgia for the old mandala and the sense that modern state power is an intrusive and disruptive force in local social arrangements. The new mandala I am proposing has three key elements:
First, the new mandala has no clearly defined centre. The extraordinary economic transformations that have taken place within the region, combined with the proliferation of forms of modern government, means that there is now a pervasive network of economic, political and symbolic power with numerous points of attachment and engagement. Influence, security and prosperity is pursued by entering into projects (in the broadest sense of the word) that involve pragmatic and often relatively impermanent relationships with scattered sources of power.
Second, the physics of power in the new mandala is neither radiation or penetration. These metaphors can be useful but they attribute agency primarily to the centre. I prefer the imagery of domestication. In the new mandala power diverse sources of power, including the power of the state, are drawn in, condensed and re-combined to create locally productive flows of potency. These local flows of power are regulated by institutional arrangements and sets of values that comprise what, in a specifically political context, I’ve called a “rural constitution.” We don’t need to look for alternative forms of power or agency at the margins—or on the periphery, in the uplands, off-stage, or in zomia—we can find them at the ubiquitous points throughout the modern polity where external power and local livelihoods are productively combined.
Third, I see the modern state as having a fundamentally productive role in the constitution of these new mandalas of power, especially in rural areas. This is a historically specific formation. In general terms we see the state moving along a path from taxing the rural economy to subsidising it. I have no doubt that the different countries of our region are at different points along this path, but Thailand has certainly moved furthest and has reached a point where the state now puts considerably more into rural communities than it takes out. This is a fundamentally important transformation: it has dispersed and fragmented the state itself in a way that comprehensively blurs the demographic distinction between state and community. Bureaucratic style is now an important part of the repertoire of local wisdom. The material and symbolic resources available from the state mean that it is now an object of desire. The core political dynamic for the new mandala is not minimising surplus extraction but maximising state subsidy and regulatory support. The boat operators of Chiang Khong and the snail crushers of Ban Tiam are representatives of this new political economy.
So, we have three core elements of the new mandala: no clearly defined centre, a physics of power based on domestication and a system of local power that is underpinned by the state. Let me now propose a useful cultural metaphor for thinking about this new mandala: string.
In ritual contexts in many parts of our region, string is used to create flexible and multi-centred networks for the generation, concentration and distribution of power. String is used to connect entities of different sacred powers. It connects monks with laymen, Buddha images with mundane objects and high status members of a congregation with their lowliest neighbours. This connection does not diminish the power of entities that possess a great deal of it, nor is it seen as restricting or controlling those who have much less of it. Rather, the connection creates the potential for a generation and flow of powerful benefits for all who are linked into the network. This is a de-centred network with multiple nodes of concentrated power within it—monks, novices, Buddha images, other sacred entities and merit making villagers. Some of these may be particularly revered by the congregation, but they enhance the potency of the entire network rather than monopolising a central place within it. New nodes of sacred power can be bought into the network without challenging any strongly established hierarchy. For me, the network of string captures the essence of the new mandala – decentred, flexible and, while not without basic inequalities, potentially democratic.
Of course, in moving away from a focus on power as domination, there is the risk that the network of string provides us with an overly benign metaphor. I acknowledge this risk. I am only too aware that string-like connections can also bind people into relationships of exploitation and oppression where opportunities for productive agency are severely constrained. But, at the same time, I think it is important that scholarship on the abusive excesses of power recognise that the exception is exceptional; that abuse is a breach of the norm. We risk blunting our critique of the misuse of power, if we insist on the making the exception mundane.
***
Let me now move on to New Mandala, with a capital “N” and capital “M”. New Mandala is a blog established in mid 2006 by myself and my colleague Nicholas Farrelly. The timing of its launch was fortuitous. After a few months of New Mandala’s operation, Thailand’s coup of 2006 boosted us from obscurity to notoriety. Since those early days New Mandala has hosted more than 2,300 posts and over 20,000 reader comments. Over the past year there have been over 700,000 “reads” of our various posts. Though I have no doubt that some find its presence disconcerting, or worse, I am happy to be immodest and declare that it has been an important addition to public discussion on mainland southeast Asia.
For me, a central part of the mission for New Mandala was to give expression to some of the imaginings about power that I have been talking about. There is no clear editorial line at New Mandala, despite regular claims to the contrary, but there is a general commitment to providing alternative visions of the numerous ways in which power, potency and agency is constituted and expressed in the region. Sometimes this has been relatively light hearted, such as my interest in the “coyote dancing” controversy that erupted in October 2006 when Thailand’s queen reacted unfavourably to TV images of scantily clad dancers at a temple in Nong Khai (I hope she doesn’t go to her son’s birthday parties). I argued, inspired by Durkheim, that “Scantily dressed dancing girls, given their exceptional nature, play a part in marking Buddhist festivals as times of exceptional, and sacred, assembly.” I also quoted from one of the festival songs recorded by Richard Davis in Nan province in the 1960s to show that there is nothing new about the combination of bawdiness and Buddhism:
And where do you live, little sister with the low strut, coming to watch the fireworks as if you were a queen? Whose little girl are you? I’ve a mind to bend your neck over and give you a kiss. I only dislike breasts that droop like bee’s nests. But you, – Lord, I’d like to give you a hug. … This is the bawdiest New Year yet. Spines bent back like lizards on the spit, brassieres barely covering the nipples. Small and trim-waisted with breasts like watermelons.
Here we have a delightfully cultural angle on the new mandala, with its seemingly undisciplined combination of forms of sacred and sexual potency in a way that is no doubt disturbing for members of the elite who suffer from premature hardening of the categories. New Mandala, the blog, delights in documenting such phenomena.
It was no accident, I suspect, that publicity about the queen’s concerns about lewd dancing at Buddhist festivals came in October 2006, not long after the coup. It was part of a post-coup intensification of the Thai elite’s disparagement of rural culture; one element in the campaign to delegitimize rural people’s electoral judgements. The moralistic, and profoundly hypocritical, sufficiency economy campaign was another element in this attack, and another target for regular New Mandala critique. New Mandala made a useful contribution to exploring the close relationship, in the post-coup environment, between sufficiency economy and sufficiency democracy.
In relation to our more explicitly political content, and there has been a lot of it, New Mandala has regularly been criticised for adopting what is interpreted as a pro-Thaksin position. My contributions to New Mandala have prompted one commentator on Thailand to describe me as “the most pro-Thaksin commentator in the western world.” I’m happy to put that on my CV, but, with respect, I think this sort of comment is missing the broader point that New Mandala is trying to make. For me, the intellectually compelling thing about Thaksin is that he recognised that, in modern Thailand, power could be produced in new circuits of influence. His policies of resource mobilisation, economic development, credit provision and health care recognised that aspirations for local power and potency were now oriented towards non-local flows of material and symbolic resources. The Thaksin phenomenon intellectually undercut the persistent anti-capitalist and anti-state sentiments of many observers of rural Thailand and left them grasping at conceptual thin air when they had to formulate a response to the 2006 coup.
Apart from Thaksin, there has been another figure that has featured regularly in New Mandala’s posts and comments: Thailand’s king. If I can be immodest again, I would suggest that New Mandala has made a valuable contribution to opening up international public discussion of the highly political role of the Thai monarchy. In the wake of recent spate of media discussion of the monarchy in international outlets such as the Economist, it is easy to forget just how infrequent and euphemistic this was only a few of years ago. Some critics have asserted that New Mandala is obsessed with the royal family. Again, I think this is missing the point. Inevitably a project interested in the proliferation and multiplicity of power has to deal with the figure that used to lie at its symbolic centre. We have no hesitation in responding vigorously, and with occasional irreverence and parody, to those who attempt to deny the legitimacy of alternative circuits of power and re-assert the primacy of the royal centre. In the spirit of New Mandala’s provocation, I must say that I am often frustrated at the quite limited extent to which most academics outside Thailand are willing to take up this challenge. This caution, perhaps even timidity, despite the compelling intellectual appeal of the subject, its political importance, and, most important of all, the enduring human rights abuses that underpin the defence of the monarchy is profoundly disappointing. I accept that many of us feel constrained by the very real academic, personal and material connections that we have with Thailand. There are real risks, but there is safety and power in numbers and in the institutional status that many of us enjoy. We now have the ability, and the technology, to explore the fractures that have opened up in Thailand’s royal edifice and create new academic norms of frank and open discussion. It would be tempting to wait until the impending reign of King Vajiralongkorn. With his companion Captain Fu Fu and his sartorially minimalist consort, he will provide a much easier target for critique than his father. But I think it would be mistake to wait. The current king may well become a more a more potent ideological force long after he dies. Given the groundswell of discussion that is emerging in Thailand itself, it is time for the international academic community to play a much more active part in deconstructing the royal taboo.
In closing, I’ll make one more specific comment about New Mandala. I acknowledge that our focus has been strongly oriented to Thailand, just like my presentation tonight. We have also hosted a lot of discussion about Burma, but much less on Laos and, in particular, Cambodia. Of course, this is a reflection of our expertise and our current research interests. We are currently taking action to address the imbalance, by recruiting volunteer country editors for both Cambodia and Laos. We would also welcome contributions from any of you working on these countries, and of course, those of you who work on Thailand, Burma or southern China. If you want to get to a large audience with an interest in mainland southeast Asia quickly, New Mandala is a great vehicle. There is the real chance that more people will read your contribution in a week, than would read one of your journal articles in a lifetime. Both Nich Farrelly and I are genuinely committed to providing as diverse and open a forum as possible. We would particularly welcome material that critiques, or even parodies, the positions we, or any of our other contributers, have taken. Southeast Asian emerging new mandalas contain many potent sources of inspiration and motivation and we hope to reflect as many of them as we possibly can.



Andrew, congratulations for your new title: “the most pro-Thaksin commentator in the western world” which makes you an instant celebrity in this troubled land. However, I believe this title will not go unchallenged if one looks at what other commentator/academics like Giles Ungpakorn have been writing and doing.
There are also people from other fields whose actions can be perceived as being pro-Thaksin. Very soon, anti-Thaksin people will also create other titles such as the “most pro-Thaksin blogger, bureaucrat, businessman, and even khunying.”
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Khaosan you are obviously a malicious pro-PAD poster, posting a totally unfounded accusation like this against a respected academic.
Shame on you – you barbarian.
Well your lot have a real problem now – a ThanPuying has taken the stage at a Red Shirt rally.
This obviously indicates, at very least, that at least some people at Court don’t think the Red Shirts are all bad.
And remember what rough justice was dished out to Sondhi Lim.
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Interesting threat Khaosan. How very yellow (shirted) of you.
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I see that Andrew is attempting to undo thousands of years of ‘Asian Values’ or ‘Old Mandala’ and systems of organisation…
Yes, think it’s about time these ‘Asian Values’ are seriously rethought!
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Unfounded accusations, Chris ? Pls reread Andrew’s posting. It is in fact a compliment ! Not a long time ago, if you were labelled a communist, you should be proud of it.
In fact, I just learned from watching tv that not only a Thanpuying, but also a Momluang had climbed the stage and donated a lot of money to the reds. Well, this TV station is certainly not controlled by Abhisit.
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Khaosan and Chris Beale,
Why not let Andrew Walker himself clear all suspicions on whether or not Andrew Walker is or is not pro-Thaksin?
This New Mandala website was very conveniently born during the heights of the anti-Thaksin protests in Y2006 and honed in on Thailand and Thaksin and the Thai monarchy issues at that time. And in my very early NM posters, I raised the suspicion that perhaps New Mandala was a Thaksin-funded website. Perhaps . . . still is.
But be prepared for a very convoluted answer from the Australian anthropologist.
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Vichai,
If Thaksin does fund such web site like this one you should be thankful to him.
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Good one Vichai N. You have fallen back into the mode of anyone who opposes or disagrees with you and your ilk is paid by Thaksin. Do you realize how totally bonkers you appear? Barking in fact.
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Oops, sorry, that was idle abuse. But at least I didn’t make it up like Vichai does.
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Accuse anyone of being pro-Thaksin and immediately you get indignant how-dare-you denial . . .
Very amusing to say the least.
Are there no Red shirts anymore at NM?
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Oh come now Vichai. You accused people of being in the pay of Thaksin Shinawatra. That’s quite different and scurrilous to boot.
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In my view, accusing the administrators of an academic blog of receiving money from a political figure in return for favourable political coverage on the blog is an extremely serious allegation.
Not only does it affect the reputation of the owners of the blog but it also demeans the reputation of the blog itself and those who contribute to it.
Vichai N has repeatedly made this accusation against Andrew Walker.
Unless Vichai N has clear evidence to support his accusation I call on the administrators to demand that he withdraws his accusation unequivocally or permanently ban him from this blog.
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Suspicions . . . gentlemen . . . suspicions.
And I continue to suspect that those who support Thaksin are for the most part getting paid by Thaksin . . . including those sporting blazing Red shirts or . . . closet pro-Thaksins wearing red underwear instead.
Don’t we all have suspicions we wish clarified?
Alladin rues that by airing my suspicions, Vichai N ‘demeans the reputation of the blog itself and those who contribute to it.’ What reputation Alladin?
I place it before you gentlemen and if only those undereducated underpaid underclass who make up the Red Shirts could read and understand most of what has been argued and debated at New Mandala . . . they would have turned their backs against Thaksin’s divisive and corrupting politics and spat at his demeaning cash handouts and stomped at those horrid red costumes.
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The worst thing about Thailand is that it is run by people like Vichai N., who clearly despise the majority of their fellow countrymen and women.
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You Farangs may not believe in karma but just like the wind, it does exist. The enjoyment of watching an evil idea unfold in real life is irresistible isn’t it
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I am partly in agreement with R.N. England . . . that it would be bad for Thailand if people like Vichai N run things (luckily I don’t see any Vichai N clones in Thai government). The worst is, R.N. England, if people like Thaksin and his gang or his nominees will govern Thailand . . and these Thaksin clones and wannabes procreate like rats in the gutter.
I do despise Thai people who readily sell their votes and despise even more the people who corrupts the very poor and the very vulnerable. Had I been running things, I’d lock up anybody who sell or buy votes and throw away the keys.
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So Vichai N, are you saying that those yellow “guard” Sondhi L and the coup leader Sondhi B. are doing for the good of the country, and furthermore they didnt get benefit from their “service” to the country???? now that’s a huge hypocrite.
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Wrong RN England! The worst thing about Thailand is that it is run by people like Vichai N. and also opposed by people like Vichai N. (Who clearly despise the majority of their fellow countrymen and women, but are nevertheless prepared to ruthlessly exploit them for every measley baht. ) If you believe any of these faction leaders are in the least bit honest, you are truly deluded. The Vichais of Thailand, in whatever shirt, are only in it as a means to bend the succession to their financial advantage. Neither side has any real intention of ushering in a more just & equitable society, since that would mean their having to graft instead of just living like lazy-arse parasites.
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R. N. England,
The best thing about Thailand is that it is not run by people like Vichai N.
Re ‘”Supporters” of Thaksin, you are getting paid by him!’
I don’t know about the others. I can only speak for myself. From September 2006, I have defended Thaksin, in writing as well as in person in several biased public/academic forums hosted in UK. (eg. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article6920452.ece
I don’t consider myself a “supporter’ of Thaksin” as I did not vote for the defunct TRT. I have not come from a disadvantaged background either – top English boarding school followed by Oxbridge education; the educational profile paralleled Thailand’s 27th Prime Minister. Let Vichai N and his like wake up to reality that not only “the paid, the poor, the corrupt, the stupid, and the gullible” are ‘supporting’ Thaksin. Out there in a world of complex reality, some of us don’t give a monkey if we’re seen to have been bribed or paid by Thaksin. I, for one, couldn’t careless. The “frog in a coconut shell” attitude doesn’t affect my life; what does is I did not, cannot, and will not live up to something I believe in.
I know I am not alone on this shore.
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Be a gentleman Vichai and withdraw your scurrilous claim if you have no evidence. This is behavior unbecoming of any “educated” person.
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This blog is far too good to be true. I wish for all involved in this so callled “academic” orchestration to come out and take a bow when this is all over and take the responsibility of thinking and choosing for Thai people. I am not sure if you are aware of what you are dealing with. Intellectual, you say, you have simplified thousands of years of history with just that? Are you sure you are up for the consequences of polluting Thai people with your ideas? How on earth could you come to such conclusion that Thailand needs your kind of change? If Thailand has made a mistake, it was when she let you in and allow you to slapped her on the face when you left.
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@banrachawong: Apologies, but you no longer have a monopoly on polluting people’s minds with the fairy-tales you call “history” in Thailand. You’d do well to get over it quick, because the party’s almost over…
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I never thought that my first innocent posting would generate such a “vigorous debate” afterward. Now that hundreds of thousands of red shirts are roaming Rajprasong and Phanfa/Rajdamnern areas while Abhisit has no clue on how to deal with the situation (yesterday the court rejected his request to issue an injunction to clear up the Rajprasong area), it matters little now whether someone or an organization was paid by Thaksin or not. The truth now is that many people are willing to spend money to “help” Thaksin. If you understand Thai well, click the link below to hear what Thanpuying had to say at the Phanfa stage some time ago. Ironically, it is the website of The Nation, known as the most anti-Thaksin daily newspaper, which carries the clip.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/03/24/politics/Thanpuying-Viraya-Now-and-Then-30125442.html
Several once pro-ammat companies (I would not tell you who they are now) are secretly offering to finance the reds, now that the movement is getting stronger each day. The Bangkok governor (a Democrat) personally came to see Veera offering the use of mobile toilets at Rajprasong stage. We can guess what these gestures are all about. The bottomline is that the issue is no longer about Thaksin. The main issue is now more about injustice in society and Thaksin is only one part of it.
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I presume to speak for most of the non- Thais who contribute to this blog, in saying that we wish that the people of Thailand were able to live as well as we do. We live under laws made by our own elected representatives. Many of us live in true constitutional monarchies, where the monarch or the monarch’s deputy must act on the advice of a cabinet, appointed from our representatives, by a leader elected by them. We realise how lucky we are, not to be enslaved by a club of whispering, slithering courtiers who get their positions by well directed grovelling, and their power by corrupting the army and the courts.
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What a hoot Banrachawong! I guess what you really mean is that your own brand of traditional pollution doesn’t really work like it used to.
The expats who live here have absolutely no power at all to shape local people’s thinking. So be it! This is not our country. But we would be complacent if we didn’t have an opinion on those who oppress us. I count both Thaksin and Sonthi lim as oppressive, for instance. There are many others, right down to the bureaucratic stamp-wielding sadists in government offices. You would have to live as an expat yourself to know precisely how powerless we are, when we can’t just afford to buy ourselves out of trouble. We are largely treated with contempt because we don’t fit neatly into people’s unreal ‘free lunch’ expectations. Most of the time we are barely able to protect ourselves against the predators in local society. We may have a bit more money than say a lowly civil servant, but we have even fewer rights because of the paranoia of those who continue to want to run this country as a personal piggy-bank.
Some real pollution has come from the superpowers over the last century, but you poo-yais are all too keen to live off their largesse when the money starts flying. If Thailand made a mistake, it was because of the foolishness of poo-yais in believing they could continue to control all the strings of power, without actually making any real effort.
Stop blaming it on others and start realizing your own numerous mistakes.
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Elite of Elite! I don’t believe in kharma when it is intentionally imposed on me as a means of social repression. I do, however, have a strong belief in the remarkably very similar idea of “What goes around, comes around”. And I will also enjoy the spectacle of watching the poo-yais and fake prais crash & burn from their own monumental stupidity. The shit is likely to hit the fan pretty soon, but I am almost certain that those who have long conspired to profit from the succession are going to wish they had stayed at home and taken up knitting as a more profitable hobby. Enjoy!
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@anthapan believe it or not the thing I called history and you call fairy tales does not come conveniently from sources from one side. Let me tell you a very strange story, I happened to stumble upon a book ( in the land of fairy tales where no contradicting views are allowed) that claim to say that our history is based on fiction not facts. I found it very interesting hence finished the whole book in a night. The book tried to prove the point that our history was made up so along the way many facts such as how the often this land had been saved by courageous rulers whose decedents made up of our royalists. I guess truths are truths no matter how hard you want to hide them. Someone fought for this land, that’s much I know. Should you not be grateful for that? If not for the blood that was shed, we wouldn’t be having the luxury to discuss about this here and now. The irony is that I was not impressed by the fairy tales until I read this book which opened my eyes. I guess you must want to know who write the book. It was written by one of the red academic army Reangyos Jantharakiri (เรืองยศ จันทรคีรี).
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@banshack . First, I sincerely thank you for thoughts and experience you have shared. This makes me glad that I found this blog. I do not deny that some traditions are there for control. Our way of governing does come from trial and error, whose doesn’t. But that does not give us the right to throw away our long held values. If the reds were against the unfairness from oppression from “Pu Yai”, we wouldn’t have heard Dr. Weang Tojira attacking PM Abhisit saying “as someone who is older” and then lectured on how the PM shouldn’t quarrel with Jatuporn. So the PM is supposed to listen to Dr.Weang’s nonsense just because he is older? I do not think we can take our inconveniences here and there to be the basis for the rationale to overthrow an existing system and neither should we ignore them. But the way the reds rush into this is what amazes me the most. Many of the thing about the red’s movement is suspicious. For instance, I still can not figure out why UDD has four different websites (.com, net .org .biz) that when accessed come to the same page??? and how some of the links (out of numerous liks) for articles in big name magazines led to nowhere? I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone but just trying to exercise my right in believing.
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Sawarin Suwichakornpong, I agree with the assessment of Thaksin in your letter to The Times. He is like Sir Robert Walpole, not a good moral example, but someone who tipped the balance of power towards the elected institution. The difference is that Walpole was followed by a gradual strengthening of democracy in Britain. After Thaksin we have had a successful absolutist reaction, as if the Jacobites had won in 1745.
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How generous of you.
And if the natives don’t want to live as well as you, what are you going to do? Civilize them?
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I once support Taksin, but now I hate Taksin…Taksinomic theory was the cause…you know nothing, say nothing then…leave things to Thai people…I’m sick of Farang who thinks they know better… mind your own business and do good to your mother land.
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Banrachawaong@21 no farang here is “choosing” for the Thai people, as almost no farang are entitled to vote in Thailand – unlike in Western countries, where many Thais are allowed to vote.
Your highly discriminatory, fascist inspired nationality laws make THIS is yet another “Thai”/ amart double standard.
Also your “Thailand” has not existed for even one century, let alone the many you claim. It was Siam – with its’ more multi-ethnic, democratic connotations and reality – which existed for so long before the Thai military fascist constructed “Thailand” in 1937. If you want to keep “face”, keep up with the modern world.
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wow ! amazing. and this says who ? I bet – a person, who himself barely got his last Thai name given to his father / grandfather hardly less than some hundred years ago, due to a royal decree aimed to assimilate those immigrants.
yet those people, who themselves have been for quite a long time as much aliens (as they now love to consider farangs, or especially tang dau) – but then have managed to take over ALL the profitable positions and niches in this country, from business (especially most favored – being brokers, lenders, middle-men – all the blood-suckers), army, police and political power (oh, this one is one of the most profitable !)
and yet, now such people are so proud, considering themselves truly original authentic Thais, that they so indignantly refuse to even suppose that someone else can have as much (of perhaps even – MUCH MORE, being able to think “out of box”) understanding of what is REALLY going on in this country.
interesting, what country is that? as I recall, Thailand has become Thailand hardly half century ago. before that it was Siam – and according to modern data its history is hardly since Sukhotai kingdom, which means some 800 years – before that there were some separate small kingdoms, often vassals of powerful neighbors (Myanmar, Khmer). even if count from Dvaravati, the most it would make some 1000+ years.
so, which “thousands of years” are mentioned here?
unless of course the speaker automatically takes into accounts … history of China ?
which would mean that speaker thus considers presently existing country Thailand as some province of China ?
I won’t be surprised at all. after all, taking into consideration all those who literally run this country – yes, it is understandable that they would consider it so. and no wonder that they look upon / treat with such a disdain and disgust the provincial folks, whom they practically consider lesser beings – only perhaps slightly superficially better than those tang dau, merely because unlike tang dau such rurals have Thai ID card .
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banrachawong – Since I am a Thai, you statement is deeply troubling, and yes I totally disgusted with what you said.
Throughout my life, I have seen many foreigners who actually do care about our country than many Thais actually did. I got to know this guy from Denmark who married with a Thai, he used to work for a chemical lab in Copenhagen. The guy came to visit our prestigious university (Chula) and felt that the equipments in the lab was sadly out of date so the guy pull some string to donate some of the old equipments (old as being use less than 5 years as oppose to 10+ years) from Copenhagen and get it ship to Bangkok by his own money. You know what happen with the equipment now?? It just sat there in Chula equipment vault because no one care to learn how to use it.
Furthermore, I want to added that you should trace back your background a bit because I”m almost 100% sure that your ancestor was not originated from this land.
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Banrachawong,
Maybe the reason that the UDD has number of websites is insurance against one being banned in the middle of the night for some spurious reason.
The other is to maximize their traffic. It’s a completely common practice in commerce and politics.
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A lot of red heads here…555
I like Farang who adores any country that they stay and live their lives happily trying to understand the difference. There are only 2 races in this crazy world…a good and a bad…
Stop doing this kind of research or open up this nonsense blog.
Didn’t they teach you in school the subject called “Ethics”? guess not
or else you skip the class.
We love our king and it is because of his goodness, similar to royal family in England, Japan..etc… oops…I forgot that you don’t have king…sorry for that, you couldn’t, cannot and never understand if you still use your left brain to think.
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StanG (30), your suggestion, that the average Thai would prefer not to live as well as the average non-Thai contributor to this blog, is not a serious one. It sounds more like the wishful thinking of one that gets special satisfaction out of cheap services from downtrodden people.
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Everyone, Thais and non-Thais alike, please calm down and help Thailand stand on its feet.
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Luecha Na Malai : Really creative…I agree
Thailand Su Su…Taksin get out…oops
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RN England (37), your earlier explanation of well being was about a lot more than material prosperity, and even on a material level, I doubt average foreign reader of this blog is far better off than an average Thai reader.
Even then, you are implying that in order to achieve that prosperity Thais need to give up their own political system in exchange for western democracy. Would you convert them to Christianity, too? Or have them memorize Richard Dawkings books instead of the Bible?
What if Thais genuinely like to be “enslaved” and you are not the only one feeling lucky.
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Khunpenkrai,- there is not good or bad in this world, the world is gray. We wouldn’t have so much chaos in this world if the would can be divided into black and white that easily, otherwise people will be able to make decision without worrying about whether they make a wrong decision because everything is black and white.
Furthermore, I dont know why you only use your right brain and not the left?
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Is the left brain the red one and the right one yellow? Magnets change things, of course.
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StanG. How many times do most Thais have to express their wish at the ballot box, for you to get the simple fact into your head, that they do not wish to be trodden down by the likes of you?
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@chris beale
voting is not the only way of influencing people and I think you know that.
@chris beale & Media War
I apologize for making such a claim about history of Thailand. How naive of me to talk about some story that no one alive has actually withnessed. I am also too humble to “think out of the box “and recite secondhand history right out of some history book (did you really read my comment?). I think this is the very problem of how some westerners always think they know better than us and think that they are liberated. Always thinking out of the box that sometimes forget to take a good look at what was in the box in the first place.
@Tarrin
What about when our King Chulalongkorn gave us our university? Why are you not grateful? But when some foreigner handed you some new equipments because they take pity on us you are forever grateful? (Has it ever occurred to you that maybe no one wants to use those equipments because he/she does not want a charity?)
I think you must be reading the same history book as chris beale and MediaWar or maybe you were actually there 5000 years ago. I am more disturbed hearing from you asking whether or not I am a 100%Thai. This coming from a Thai person. What is happenning to us? This proves my point of how some western influence does not come only with the right to vote.
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Ashame that you have to live in a gray world…come and live in our world, a happy life for good ones…
Too bad I left out the explanation on balancing the left and right brain that makes some of gray people confused. Don’t you live with balancing the both brain? gee… I thought you already knew…
So…do the researcher stop exploring on this new messy mandala things?
Your objective is in doubt…why 2006 after Taksin’s were out?
Take my advice and do something more creative…
Also you guys here…just for amuse hanging in here…but not for goods ok?
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banrachawong
Look, I never said that I’m not grateful when King Chulalongkorn establish the university, although the purpose of setting up the university then was to provided education for the elite aristocrat but that’s beside the point. The reason not to use the donated equipment was because they don’t want to look at it as a charity???? what kind of sick mind would think that way??? A university is suppose to be a place where people come to expand their horizon, to step out of their comfort zone and see the world from a different angle, to learn what is not taught in school and main stream media, NOT a place where you go and flex your ego! .
Furthermore, read my post carefully, I never said that you are not Thai, I said that I’m sure your ancestor are not 100% Thai, what is being “Thai” in your definition?? being born here?? in my definition being “Thai” means someone who cares about the country called Thailand and wants to improve and move it in a right way, so what if they are foreigners?? the whole reason why they are here and start expressing their thought was because they care, much more so than those Thais university students who indulge their parents’ money in the shopping arcade , if they dont care you would probably see them around Soi Cowboy by now, what do they get from arguing with you??.
The whole “us” against “them” perception is very wrong and I advised you to refrained from looking to the world from that prospective.
Khunpenkrai – Sorry but I cannot live in a fantasy would, I have to work and live in the real world, thx for invitation anyway. Moreover, my research went further than 2006, the roots of this problem might be trace back to 1932 perhaps?
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“the paid, the poor, the corrupt, the stupid, and the gullible”
Hahaha- like that. Khun Sawarin, you have covered just about everything the self-ordained “educated” (Thais and non-Thais) described the Red Shirts and the Red-oriented.
Wait no further… enter politics. Your country needs people like you. Thailand should be run by leaders who love their own people, not narrow-minded pygmies with strong contempts of their fellow nationals.
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Banrachawong#44 re :
“@chris beale
voting is not the only way of influencing people and I think you know that”.
Yes – up to a point.
I think it was a good idea – of General Anupong’s ? – that Anand Panyarachun (of whom I have the highest respect), Chuan Leek Pai, and General Chavalit, all very good people, get together to find a way out of this crisis.
@chris beale & Media War
“the very problem of how some westerners always think they know better than us”.
I never take this attitude. As written numerous times on previous posts, I find Thailand one of the most complex, subtle and difficult societies anywhere, to understand.
I post on this blog – often with provocative comments – simply to elicit responses from people who know more than me, so to further understand.
I never blog, or take part in any politics within Thailand, because of respect for Thai sovereignty.
Sorry if my style is blunt, but that is the way we speak in Western societies, especially New World Western societies such as Australia.
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@banrachawong
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Khunpenkrai.
You make the mistake of assuming, on some of the evidence of this forum, that most farangs are willing to tolerate Thaksin. Beyond the fantasy world of the political pundits on this site (who glibly talk about the terror phase, but who will undoubtedly scuttle off home as soon as it starts), I can barely find an expat here who has anything good to say about Thaksin. While recognising him as a person who has successfully found HIS ‘public’, they pretty much all say that they find his constant and cynical manipulation totally repugnant.
Personally, I despise the man. People call him ‘strong man’, but to me I see nothing more than a weak-willed spoilt brat. In my book, compromise is strength, and conflict is weakness.
I am also none too impressed by the red shirt leadership. They too glibly talk about revolution through some ridiculous notion that it is somehow a manly pursuit. Theirs is a world in which it is OK to fool, victimise, bully and maim the entirely innocent as a means to assume power. By tying themselves to a man of obvious criminality they have completely debased themselves and sold their cause down the river. And having spent so long scheming up novel party tricks to fool the public, they are almost entirely bereft of any real policy – except that handed down to them as a commandment from the ex- PM mafia honcho.
None of these combatants will ever get my support. There is no compromise in them. There is no policy. There is no humanity. There is no common sense. Thailand has been wracked by criminal mafia power-hungry political factions ever since 1932. The current combatants are just more of the same posturing macho nonsense.
Editor note (NSF): We prefer commentators to use the one identity whenever possible. Please consider this an opportunity to decide on one (relatively) consistent moniker. You do, of course, have a few to choose from…
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Your real world ? sure ? need a counseling hah I guess…
Reason with me why some of you like bothering other countries
Interrupting someone else’s culture
How come you have soooo much time spending on this…
don’t you have something else to do?
Playing piano, learn B-Boy, Practicing “Nobody” song…etc.
Your world will not be gray…
By the way…have you ever listen to our King’s compose ?
Fantastic and melodic pieces na…here we go
http://kanchanapisek.or.th/royal-music/index.en.html
His majesty is very talented artist both in music compose and painting …
Love all the songs…Thai kids like to play and sing these songs
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Ok Folks…leave this to you all…This is my final present here
Be as good as you can be…live happily ever after
Love you all…love the king…love Thailand
Love this cute world
Chao! Sawasdee, Sosdai, Sabaidee, Howdy and other languages
Gotta go…life is short…keep smiling you guys…
Nite Nite!
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chris is right, me too – I do not consider myself better than somebody else. I think banrachawong here is is faking being “noi jai”
@banrachawong, it’s Ok, we do not think that you’re any worse. come out of your corner already.
I forgot to answer your sarcasm about history …
well, instead of pretending being “humble” (while at the same time continue talking down to people – I guess it’s coz of hard to eradicate habit of dealing with “lesser beings”, upcountry peasants ) – you could / should have instead provided your own version.
because I have asked you pretty simple and innocent question :
I didn’t say that I know better than anybody, or especially that I may possibly know better than Thais. my question shows as much.
so, yes, you might be right that we get our information from different sources (or as you put it “text books”). that’s why, you could kindly educate me (and others whom you consider ignorant here) on the matter of CORRECT version of history, please.
prove wrong my discrepancies or in other words provide certain explanations (and better yet – evidences and sources, the “text books” or whatever YOU use) according to which you have made such a statement “thousands of years of history“.
otherwise, sorry to say, it is not enough simply make a statement (or more like a STRONG accusation) such as :
you are practically and literally INSULTING conscience of many people here, questioning their intellect – or did you mean something else, then what ? and what “pollution” do you actually imply ?
therefore, quit fooling around, playing so witty sarcastic, yet at the same fellow time “humble” and “noi jai“, so unjustly offended by some imaginary “polluting ideas”. better – present your own version / opinion in such a way that IGNORANT people like me can easily understand it.
why don’t you ? not by chance, because you still consider yourself sort of unique, special, one of a kind, better, cultured, civilized, etc. ?
but then, if you really thing in that way, why do you even bother to POLLUTE yourself by even talking to such people like commentators on this blog ?
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worst blog ever!!!
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