Since yesterday, the Thai army has taken aim at many more protestors and is continuing its violent effort to disperse the red shirts from central Bangkok. It is a tragic situation; made all the more confusing by the ongoing nature of the conflict and the prevailing ambiguities that this implies.
In their own way, our previous two open threads (here and here) have provided valuable updates on the rapidly changing situation in Bangkok. Please consider this third open thread another opportunity to share your current information and analysis with the New Mandala audience. We will endeavour to moderate comments as quickly as we can.
We all appreciate your efforts to keep up the flow of information and analysis at this very difficult time.
This is a country where the top treats human like dogs and cats. Thai citizens life are worthless to them. They order the shooting like those human life are some kind of practicing targets. They use sharp shooters who hide on the top of buildings and aim at the targets then pull the triggers, like what they did to Seh Daeng. They say those red-shirt are terrorists but what we can see from the corpses can truly tell that this government uses terrorist method in killing innocent people. The moment that I am writing, at least there are 60 deaths from the beginning, not counting the one who were injured which should exceed thousands by now. Today alone, more than 20 people are killed. They will do anything, even killing ten of thousands of people to keep their power. How many more life do they need to kill to keep their power? They turn the city of angel into a battle ground, into a war zone. The red-shirt has no weapon except some bamboo stick and stone. How can they use machine guns against bamboo stick? We need to inform the world. We need help. We need international army. We do not need Thai army because the Thai army do not belong to Thai people. They only belong to some elites who are willing to kill innocent people.
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Military and red-shirts are now having a battle at the Complete Condo building on 18 Rajaprarop — prior to Din Daeng intersection and after Soi Rangnam. A group of red-shirts set up a barricade down the street. When they began to get injured, they ran down into our compound. The military quickly overtook the barricade and there are at least 5 snipers entering the grounds of our building to flush out the remaining red shirts. Included in this group are a number of medics and media. As well as the condo’s own security guards. The gunfire is deafening here.
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@Mike you are spot on: Tak Bai. Who was at the top then?
http://www.google.co.th/#hl=en&source=hp&q=tak+bai&aq=f&aqi=g1g-m2&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=95dc5484ea159daf
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See the results of sniper shootings, caution, graphic content.
http://www.khaosod.co.th/view_newsonline.php?newsid=TVRJM016ZzVNVGM1T0E9PQ==
mostly from AP news
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where. is. Abhisit.
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It looks as if a major push will begin very shortly. There are troop movements and reinforcements. I suspect this evening we will witness (if they don’t kill all the journalists as well) a horrific body count.
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From Ji Ungpakorn:
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Just on Thai TV… the army said the reds shot each other, hence the recent deaths…and that they definitely did not shoot anyone. This is just obscene.
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From the Bangkok Post:
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So Giles is coming back to take his place in the fight is he? Isn’t he? Come on Giles there’s some of your followers getting hurt here. Surely you are not going stay in comfortable London while this is going on are you? Not like Thaksin’s wife and kids and stay safe surely.
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Les, Giles had to abandon his home and job in Thailand because he put his name to his opinions. More courage than many.
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Andrew (9) – you left out the most startling part of Lt-Gen Dapong’s statement:
“Troops have been armed with only M16 rifles and SK rifles, not war weapons…….They do not have heavy weapons like M79 grenades or RPG”
Many will be surprised to hear that semi-automatic rifles are not “war weapons” – but I guess we should be grateful that they’ve decided (for now) to leave the anti-aircraft guns, the mortars and other artillery pieces back at base.
As to troops being “ordered to target lower parts of the body” – perhaps that’s in response to the “bad press” they’re getting for the staggering number of head-shot casualties that have been inflicted? Of course, doing all they can to keep the media out of the conflict zones entirely also helps to avoid embarrassing reports going round the world within hours.
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Update: 6:40 p.m. local,
As the army put the sign of “Live firing zone” near Din Daeng intersection, reports said soldier shoot any one entering the area.
The Nation photographer was shot at leg.
Some says even a pregnant woman also got shot.
Seems like the army use full force to crack down the protesters. Thairath newspaper reports the poll, Dusit Poll, claims people 51% agree with government to use force against the UDD.
The National Affair Inspector agrees with government to use force against protesters saying even in the U.S. , law is fully enforced.
Reports said the protesters captured 2 soldiers near Bon Kai intersection, those two, can’t speak Thai, they’re from Cambodia and hired by Newin. (to be confirmed).
In general, situation is tense.
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See if this is a weapon said by the Thai army.
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Thailand/ss/events/wl/041209thailand;_ylt=AlU9FQoOp6CNVxL3qldk5aGs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNoc2FqcjNyBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNTE1L2FzX3RoYWlsYW5kX3BvbGl0aWNzBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDMQRwb3MDNARwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDc2xpZGVzaG93#photoViewer=/100515/481/urn_publicid_ap_org_cb56ca7609bb481fad0c37eca53760ef
More photo
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Thailand/ss/events/wl/041209thailand;_ylt=AlU9FQoOp6CNVxL3qldk5aGs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNoc2FqcjNyBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNTE1L2FzX3RoYWlsYW5kX3BvbGl0aWNzBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDMQRwb3MDNARwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDc2xpZGVzaG93#photoViewer=/100515/481/urn_publicid_ap_org6a063efd841d44e9ab21f98483034c87
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Photo of earlier incidents near Din Daeng
http://www.prachataiwebboard.com/webboard/id/44783
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Troops being “ordered to target lower parts of the body”? The people the troops are shooting at through the iron bars of the park fence in the BBC footage at this link must be really, really tall. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8682051.stm
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He obviously didn’t listen to the CRES pressers. Maybe it was voices in his head, I don’t know where he gets this stuff.
Reds firing M79 grenade:
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Andrew Walker – 11
Les, Giles had to abandon his home and job in Thailand because he put his name to his opinions. More courage than many.
Ha Andrew, more courage than some, but maybe less than others. Some stayed and went to prison for the wrote or said didn’t they? How many kids that Giles has converted to his brand of Trotskyism will still have their lives after this mess is all over? Very seldom is it the teachers and leaders who get punished Andrew. I do believe that Giles never got as far the court did he? Courage can be a funny thing sometimes as I just don’t see it where I obviously should.
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This is Ji’s usual rhetoric, filled with the most crude, blunt lack-of- analysis.
Still, one can share his outrage about the blood being spilt.
And yes – it’s dark humour indeed, Thailand being appointed to the UN Human Rights Commission – but then so have many others states with appalling human rights records, some of them even “socialist” ones Ji no doubt admires.
One issue I’d like to raise is this :
what is happening within Thai jails, as this break-down of law and order proceeds ?
News must be filtering in that the country is now right on the brink of all out civil war.
This could be an opportunity for an all-out break-out by Thai prisoners.
Da Torpedo, your day of freedom, liberation and VICTORY may be getting close.
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I’ve been a long time reader of this blog and have found its articles and comments informative and illuminating.
Stepping back a little, does anyone think the reds badly miscalculated their options here?
After Abhisit offered new elections, the ostensible justification for the ongoing protests was removed. Maybe the reds didnt expect this, at least at this point, and because of that we saw a fracturing between the moderate (those who will work within the existing political process) and the hard liners (those intent on bringing down the current powers in the military and monarchy).
The hard liners split away and in doing so are provoking the state into responding with overwhelming force. All the while, they’re only strengthening where the real power lies (the military) and the institutions used to legitimate it (monarchy, superficial “thin” democracy and institutions of the state).
They’re also highlighting the weakness of their movement and its inevitable defeat. We haven’t seen any mass uprising, especially in the north and north-east so we aren’t approaching an all out civil war (as some claim).
I do think that the reds represent genuine grievances of a significant percentage of the population. At the same time, from my experience and perception anyway, thai people distrust just about everyone involved in the political process and aren’t about to throw themselves in front of the military.
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Paul Moribito # 20 :
Re :
1)”They’re also highlighting the weakness of their movement and its inevitable defeat.”
There’s nothing “inevitable” about any of this.
2)” We haven’t seen any mass uprising, especially in the north and north-east so we aren’t approaching an all out civil war (as some claim).”.
Remember things happen slowly in Thailand.
There have certainly been “incidents”, and signs soldiers in Isaarn and Lanna support the Red Shirts (eg. seizure by 1,000 local troops in Khon Kaen of a train Red Shirts suspected of being part of the crackdown).
Bangkok Bank in Ubon Ratchathani was sprayed with bullets yesterday.
The momentum to rebellion in the North and North-east will build as casualties flow back to town and villages there.
During 2006′s anti-Thaksin coup, the Isaarn-based Third Army was marching on Bangkok to restore him as PM, but was disuaded by superior anti-Thaksin forces.
Since then there has been an intense struggle to ensure anti-Thaksin command of the Third Army.
3) “thai people ……. aren’t about to throw themselves in front of the military.” You must be blind, because this is exactly what they ARE DOING right now. Including some police, who have fired back at the military.
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Attita #15
The photo has been censored.
My translation:
“Sorry for the inconvenience.
Ministry of Information and communication. An order to suspend the release site that you want to visit, because of the text and image content, some inappropriate.
For more information visit http://www.amd.com.
Ministry of Information and Communication Tel: 0 2141 6950. ”
Don’t think I’ll bother ringing them.
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@ Shit Stirrer #17
More like a flare or bottle rocket. M79s are a just a tad bigger, take just a tad longer to aim.
Have you ever done anything in your life other than hunt for snipe?
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Tonight in Sydney 9:30pm SBS World News broadcast the scene of three Thai Special Forces soldiers in black NAZI helmets, armed with distinctive SR long barrel sniper rifles, hiding behind the bushes and taking aim at the unarmed civilian protesters just down the Silom road.
It was a sickening sight!
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Silom has been closed since Narathiwat with military checking who gets in and out. Surawong has been also closed but it is possible to pass through the block with a motorbike going in the direction of MBK. This whole section of Rama IV is completely empty, dotted with orange plastic barriers, razor wires, and small groups of soldiers sitting in the shadow. The place is surreal as compared with normal life but the atmosphere is relatively relaxed. I drove down the empty Rama IV, passed Wat Hualampong where monks walk pass three green chairs where military sit in full gear, guns sitting at the base of a tree and three motortaxi drivers on their bikes waiting for clients that I doubt will ever arrive. At the intersection with Ratchathewi orange barrier and razor wire block completely the street. I tried to go back and a soldier told me just to get on the foot path and drive back to Surawong. I am not sure if some teargas was used here before but the air hitches. I drive back return to Narathiwat. Sathorn also now is completely closed all the way, but here police patrol the area. Back into Soi 7 and Suan Phlu when now just a small group of tuk-tuk drivers are stopped at the intersection. I decide to go check the situation in Ngan-Dumphli. As I drive in that direction many people are getting out. I arrive to the end of Ngan-Dumpli. The narrow soi seems completely closed from what look like a localized storm cloud. The thick wall of smoke almost covers completely the small space between the buildings on Rama IV. The crowd is much bigger than in the morning and the tires have been piled up. Molotov as well went “pro”. Larger bottles and higher success rate. Tires are constantly made roll into Rama IV and light up with a small battery of Molotov, to cover the visibility to the army toward the other red barricade situated 300 meters down Rama IV in the direction of Klong Toei. Everybody is wearing a white mask covering their mouths that are distributed by a guy on a motorcycle down the soi and pushed toward the left wall of the soi, as they say two people have been shot dead and a paramedical injured there from the buildings overlooking the soi before I arrived. Three bullets holes in a window on the right side of the street seem to confirm gun shots coming from there. Down the soi three cars of fire fighters wait to see how the situation evolves. At the corner with Rama IV about 50 people squat behind a wall of tires, cover and dispensary for future burning. Some of them throw Molotov to keep the tires burning and stone with slingshot in the direction of the army. I have not seen any other weapon. The army is responding with whatever they can. The dry sounds of shotgun and the louder echoes of grenades fill the air, mixed with the smell of tires and petards thrown by the red. I stay there for about an hour and a half, watching the sun go down and the intensity of the shoots increase. Behind the line an older man, in dark gear and a helmet, as most of the people there, direct the movement of the people and the positioning of the tires. He is a motortaxi as well, he recognizes me (I am researching the multiples roles of motortaxis in the city) and greets me, tells me to be careful, and reports the dead of two people earlier on, shot in the head (I later got confirmation of this from a journalist who was there when it happened). Suddenly a wave shakes the crowd and everybody start running back into the soi, following the fire fighters cars. I decide to remain here so I do not know what exactly was going on or for what were they running. Rumors are there was a house on fire but I have no idea. The situation remains stable for a while with people on this side keeping the smoke as thick as possible and the military shooting in this direction and small explosions in the middle of Rama IV near the soi. On the opposite side of Rama IV in a small soi and in a building, constantly chipped by bullets another group of red shirts (none of them wears red at this point) are communicating with this side about their situation. The motortaxi driver who directs the operation shouts “speak in Khmer so they can’t understand”. Not sure if is effective with the military, it definitely is with me. As the lights goes down most of the journalists start going away, it is not the right day to be around once the night arrives. As the sounds of explosions and the flashes get closer to the beginning of the soi I decide to go back home. Enough for now.
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@StanG
your video is misleading,
here’s what an M79 sounds and looks like being launched…
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The video posted by StanG purporting to show red shirts using an M-79 grenade launcher shows no such thing. Do not expect any retraction from him.
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I am Thai. I would like and ask the foreigner reporters for more understand our politics and social context before making reports or article or before judging something in contrast with the real situation. Dont look to our problems through your eye-glasses, put off. Plese realize that now we should separate the protesters (Red Shirt or UDD) from the urban militants or insurgents. Hence, it’s unavoidable to use force against these groups while thai government still keep channel for reconciliation. OK?
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you people are pitiful, at best. posting photos that are doctored, with people lying on the sidewalk supposedly dead, but obviously just lying in awkward positions (one of the photos has already been seen with only the victim, the other 5 ‘bodies’ were placed afterwards for a staged photo), reporting rumours as fact…. and meanwhile, continuing to call these thugs ‘protesters’. yes, there are certainly casualties, but for the most part they brought it on themselves. these people have been holding bangkok hostage for several months now, and while i do believe many have legitimate grievances with the government, they have been used by their leaders for their own selfish political and financial gain, not to mention all those whose ID cards were taken away from them to prevent them from leaving. are any of you spouting your propaganda actually HERE in bangkok, living with this mayhem which has gone on far to long, and should never have been allowed to reach this point by the weakness of the powers-that-be? i came to this forum because it was recommended as a ‘reasonable discussion about the current situation’ (unlike the thaivisa forum hosted by the nation multimedia), but i am utterly disgusted by what i have read so far. try a little research and discussing the TRUTH of what is happening, instead of spouting your foolish rhetoric.
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A response/question for Paul (#20) and others who have repeated claims like this: “After Abhisit offered new elections, the ostensible justification for the ongoing protests was removed.” Other variants, repeated endlessly in the major media, have it that after Abhisit offered elections the red shirts issued new demands (a rendition the Democrats have pushed). Although I have found coverage of the actual content of negotiations to be limited at best, my understanding, based on conversations with people tracking them from inside Thailand, is somewhat different.
The central demand of the red shirts has always been “dissolve the parliament.” It may sound as if this just means “promise new elections,” but my understanding is that they are not the same thing and that this is not a mere verbal quibble. Technically, the parliament has to be dissolved before elections can be held, and once the date of dissolution is set, the electoral process is legally set in motion and takes on reality. Absent the dissolution, promise of an election is pie crust, easily broken. My understanding is that while Abhisit’s “road map” offered an election date, the issue of dissolution and a date for it had not been firmly settled–precisely the main issue on which the red shirts had been demanding an agreement. So if this is right, the red shirts did not in fact issue any major new demands–their central demand was what was still on the table–and Abhisit never made a serious offer, then pulled out of the negotiations himself. Does anyone have an account of the content of negotiations that suggests otherwise? If so, it would be interesting to hear.
I find it instructive, too, that Abhisit used the same term, “road map,” which the US and Israel have always deployed while maintaining 40-plus years of Israeli occupation. (Cf. here Ehud Barak’s “generous offer” which never was, and which was exposed later by insiders as a maneuver that actually scuttled the negotiations and indirectly set in motion Sharon’s provocation and the subsequent al-Aksa intifada. Abhisit may have pulled off a similar set-up of the current round of violence with his version of a “road map.”) In my opinion the Abhisit government is now in fact claiming–and being accorded de facto by the “international community”–”Israeli” privileges: float “peace plans” that make no serious concessions, blame the other side for their failure, then start shooting again, and figure that much of the media will blame the opponents for the breakdown in negotiations while encouraging “both sides” to stop the violence.
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We are very aware of the crimes being commited by Abbesit and his minnions . His pathetic denials of knowledge of the snipers and the denial will NOT hold water when Charges are brought against them. The Eu know about them too. He will be brought up on charges by the UN for crimes against the Thai people. This is NOT 1974 and you can not hide murder anymore. The people can not be kept down for ever. This Thai apartaid has got to stop.
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Mmm ”Bangkok at war”…
Well, words being words, and sometimes rhetoric, being what they may or nor not be, can someone explain why I saw a bunch of motorbike boys screaming up the local avenue tonight without a care in the world?
Vita est ludus…
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One of the most ironic examples of Thinglish i have ever seen. Look closely at the “Live Fire Zone” signs. They actually say, “Life Fire Zone”! Perhaps a more clearer message could be sent such as, “Life Ending Zone”!
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And reporting here from soi somewhere, the local bloke said, ”G0 away now, otherwise you might get seriously hurt.”
There is no war in Bangkok.
This is not a Thai drama soap opera, so please treat this very serious situation appropriately.
Seriously, please.
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Both yellow and red are using Thailand as their hostage.
Yesterday was yellow, today is red.
Red and yellow are using the same tactics, I must admit that IMHO red are a bit more rude but that is how they express themselves.
Frankly, I believe that both sides are not really believe in democracy. They only use it as their rhetoric to appeal for a wider support from inside and outside Thailand. World medias especially the western ones are really love democracy and prefer a system without monarch which is fine. But trying to impose your values on others does not really work.
I believe that if we have an election in Thailand today and the current government happens to win. The red who is asking for a democratic government through election will not be happy either and they will come out again and it will not be because the election fraud but because the result does not satisfy them. On the other hand, if the red supported party wins the yellow will definitely come out again.
I do believe that there is a genuine supporters from both sides who really believe it what they are preaching. Unfortunately, all of them just become a bargaining chip for both sides leaders to use to achieve their goals which not a better Thailand but a power for themselves. To categorise the supporters by class, income or demographic is really unfair. I personally know an elite who support the red and a commoner who support the yellow. To brand them is to blind ourselves. They are just ordinary people who believes in something and may try to change it with whatever means it is available.
For myself, I do not supporting both sides. Why? Because the means they are using. Using country as a hostage cannot be counted as a decent mean in my book.
However, I do believe that we are equal. Everyone have their rights and free to use it as long as using it will not violate other people’s rights and also firmly believe that “I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.
I appreciate that in Thailand, there is a law where it forbids people’s right to criticise a monarch but we always have a choice. We can violate the law but we have to accept the consequence.
I think the fundamental problem lies not in poverty, inequity, class, etc. but in our inability to have a discussion without becoming personal. So the root causes were never found, real discontents were never heard and real issues were never addressed. We are from the land of smile we decided to live peacefully by wipe all the disagreement under the carpet. Once in a while when the discontent has become unbearable the violence will break.
Unfortunately, it is also the past governments action or inaction that has caused today’s unbearable discontent.
We spent nearly 80 years working out how the democracy should work in Thailand and we still working it out so the real problems were never addressed. For the last 4 years, nothing much has been done since all the governments were pretty much in the gridlock because we are still working out the best system.
The other problem is we are getting to a point where there is too much division in the society. People on both sides decided to shut their minds and loathing each other instead. It is a bit hard at the moment to find the common interests and try to move forward.
As one of a Thai people who may not agree with the majority, will other Thais care about my opinions and let me have a say in our future more than just casting a ballot? Because I do listen to other Thais.
Even though the party that I support (the current government) will have a good chance of losing on the next election, I will not take to the street to drive out the other party because I do respect their choices but I will voice my disagreement. We just have to share the responsibility of the choice we collectively made. Unfortunately, the choices that the majority choose seem to be wrong most of the time but at least we can say that this is our choice.
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By saying that millions of red shirts have become republicans, Giles seems to be providing a good justification for the army to crack down on them to save the monarchy. If republican red shirts really already number in the millions, we can probably assume that nearly all of the hard core red shirt protestors fighting the army in Bangkok are indeed republicans engaged in a struggle to overthrow the monarchy, which might help explain why they rejected the offer of early elections after having stated that their only objective was early elections. On the other hand the vast majority of Thais still seem to be staunchly pro-monarchist and would accept a crackdown, if they were convinced that the hard core red shirts were as Giles asserts. He can probably do a lot more good for his Marxist cause by remaining silent.
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Daily Mail (UK) update
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1278378/Thai-protester-shot-head-taunting-armed-troops-laser-pointer.html?ITO=1490
.
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Absolutely Must See Video:
Even more “self-defense” from the KING’s Royal Thai Army: http://tinyurl.com/22qmuyl
Please spread this far and wide. Rumours going wild that the final crackdown is imminent. We can’t stop it now, but we can bear witness.
Good job CNN.
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Thailand is a corrupt country – no axe to grind there – it’s a fact – so democracy here remains the last vestige of what exactly?
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Update at 1:42 a.m. local time,
- In evening, there’s a series of M-79 rockets hit at the apartment of the policeman at Lumphini Police Station, 9near Japan Embassy on Wireless Road. First attack includes two explosions, hitting right to the 4th floor of the apartment, one police officer and his wife injured and one woman (police’s wife) injured. Modern 9 TV shows video they were being carried to a pick-up truck. I’m not sure if one woman is pregnant.
Later, some superior officer came to the station and had some meeting with the chief of the station and other high rank officers, then there’s another attack of M-79, 7 explosions, I think. no casualties reported.
(I doubt if this would have anything to do with yesterday Reuters report of a police officer in this station shot his gunfire to the soldier to stop them from shooting civilian. There might be some revenge to the police officer).
Witness said he saw a black-clad man launched the grenade from Sarasin intersection (close to US Embassy).
- Around 22:30 hrs. local time, death tolls up to 24, almost 200 injured. Most are red-shirts and local residents, according to Ministry of Health report.
- About 10,000 protesters gathering at Din Daeng area, setting up a mobile stage to make a temporary camp there. (not sure about the number), as well as at Bon Kai (near Suan Lum Night Bazaar), the protester set up barricade, tire, and shot down the street lights.
- At the Rajprasong stage as I’m writing, the leaders still talking with people.
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Rageltjie de Beer @#39,
The video in your link is absolutely great. I also found this dead man shot to head (see link below)
http://www.thairath.co.th/content/pol/83190
I don’t know if he would be the victim of this shot, as there are so many snipers deployed.
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From the Nation’s report of Abhisit’s TV speech last night:
“Abhisit also urged the public to be cautious about rumours and untrue stories as his administration remained committed to a free press.”
Who does this man think he is kidding? How can anyone ever take seriously anything he says?
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@Portman:
I would also say that millions of thais are republicans. But you dont see them – they are republicans but they still have pictures of the king and the queen in there home.
Why? Because it is suspicious in Thailand if you don’t have one. And this is dangerous. If someone doesn’t like you it’s much easier to go after you – accusing you of one of the biggest crime here in Thailand.
It took the coup to get even some very vague comments about this topic from my closest friends here. Just watch how they people react to a speech of HMK. I was in a restaurant when he spoke the last time, no one even looked at the TV. “Hey it’s your king on TV- yes yes my Pad Thai is more important”. This was the reaction.
Don’t jugde a book by its cover and never ever judge a Thai by his smile or his words.
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Athita at #4
Dead reds???????
I hope you posted that message in good faith.
The image has been clearly manipulated.
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Monkeys.
“Competition for resources is often assumed to be a main cause of conflict in both humans and other animals, says Jessica Flack at the Santa Fe Institute in New Mexico, but that might be wrong. “We find that fighting is based on memories of what other individuals did last.”"
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18898-monkeys-art-of-war-has-lessons-for-human-conflict.html
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Army sniper in action video! reported by Dan River
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btp-wUvNXuM&feature=player_embedded
Now, it is crystal clear where the rifle bullets in people head came from except you are blind.
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The only absolute certainty in this crisis is that there is no more “Thailand” – the country has split into at least three different regions, states – almost now separate countries.
1) Pattani
2) Isaarn
3) Lanna.
“Thailand” as a centralised state is absolutely finished.
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An article by Voranai Vanijka From Bangkok Post
Put an end to this rebellion
Published: 16/05/2010 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: News
I’m not in a popularity contest. I’m not a two-faced diplomat playing it safe and trying to please everyone. So let me say it loud and clear: It’s a rebellion, so put an end to it _ with swiftness, severity and certainty.
The military coup in 2006 wrongly overthrew the then democratically elected prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra. That was no democracy.
The coup council handed the power back to the people in 2007. The People Power Party (PPP) won the following election. That was democracy.
The PPP was banned by the Constitution Court for electoral irregularities and the parliament _ the democratically elected representatives of Thailand _ voted the Democrats into power. That was democracy.
The United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) argue against the Democrat-led coalition government’s legitimacy and protest for the government to step down and call a general election.
That was democracy.
And the UDD had won.
The goals of the UDD from the very start: They wanted a House dissolution. They will have one in September. They wanted a general election. They will have one on Nov 14. All within seven months and PM Abhisit Vejjajiva’s term actually ends in January 2012, a year and a half from now.
They should be dancing in the streets, celebrating victory. Then we can all go to the voting booth in November. Peace and democracy. But no.
The truth has revealed itself. The United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship is simply using democracy as a front in the interests of dictatorship.
Refusing the peaceful compromise, forsaking the democratic process, continuing to harm the country for the interests of one man, Thaksin Shinawatra, fighting against security forces of the rightful democratic government of Thailand _ that’s an uprising, it’s a rebellion.
It’s criminal. That is not democracy.
If you disagree with me and think the UDD is in the right, then let me simplify it: The next time you’re pulled over by the law in a traffic stop, you should just burn tyres, shoot slingshots at the cop and call him a dictator.
Anyone with an arrest warrant? No need to surrender. Barricade and fortify your home, fire slingshots and fire-crackers and call the law tyrannical.
Buy a lifetime membership to the Association of Anarchists. You don’t belong in a civilisation.
The UDD leaders agreed to the prime minister’s terms. But instead, Thaksin Shinawatra ordered Maj Gen Khattiya Sawasdipol to step on the brake. Because in his mind, he’s screaming: ”What about me!” ”What do I get out of this entire peace and democracy shenanigans!”
Here’s Thaksin’s dilemma. Peace and the democratic process don’t guarantee his return to power. Someone in Montenegro is kicking and screaming on the floor: ”Me! Me! Me! What about me!”
Accepting the compromise is a loss of face and may even make PM Abhisit look good in the eyes of the people, for biting the bullet and extending his hand. Thaksin Shinawatra can no longer rely on the voting booths. He can no longer rely on the democratic process.
The UDD has used democracy as a tool _ manipulated and exploited it to return Thaksin to power. Now that they are no longer confident that the democratic process will serve their interests, the UDD has transformed itself from a democratic movement into an uprising, a rebellion, a criminal organisation.
It’s worth repeating: They wanted a House dissolution. They have one in September. They wanted a general election. They have one on Nov 14. That’s democracy. Instead, they flushed democracy down the toilet.
So there’s no negotiation other than the complete and total capitulation by the government to the UDD’s every will and every whim. It’s a total victory that will embarrass the government in the eyes of the Kingdom and of the world and may possibly bury the Democrat party. That’s the game.
To Thaksin and the UDD, returning Thaksin to power is worth the 50-odd lives already lost. And that figure is bound to rise. More than 1,000 have been injured and that figure will rise. The billions of baht in economic damage. And that figure will rise.
It’s an uprising. It’s a rebellion. It’s criminal.
The UDD is screaming: ”Now! Now! Now! Prime Minister resign now!” Thaksin Shinawatra is crying: ”Me! Me! Me! I want my power back!” That’s not democracy. That’s a child that needs to be put across the lap for a good spanking.
Let me repeat it again: They wanted democracy. They had democracy. We can all go to the voting booth on Nov 14. But they flushed democracy down the toilet and chose instead, a rebellion.
And when there’s a rebellion, the government must put down the rebellion. Otherwise, we have anarchy. The law must be swift, severe and certain _ any student of criminology can tell you that.
I’ve watched television and read newspapers all this weekend. Most so-called intellectuals, academics and media talk about reconciliation. Well, that’s easy and safe _ using a thousand flowery words without saying anything worthwhile.
We reap what we sow. Again, I’m not in a popularity contest. I’m not a two-faced diplomat playing it safe and trying to please everyone. So let me say it loud and clear _ it’s a rebellion. To preserve civilisation, the government must put down the rebellion _ swift, severe and certain.
UDD members have lost their lives. This is unfortunate. It should never have happened. They should all be in our prayers and their families should be assisted in any way possible. But they’ve died in a rebellion against the rightful, democratic government of Thailand.
The security forces that have lost their lives. This is unfortunate. It should never have happened. They should all be in our prayers and their families should be assisted in any way possible.
Journalists and other innocent bystanders have lost their lives. This is unfortunate. It should never have happened. They should all be in our prayers and their families should be assisted in any way possible.
It didn’t have to come to this. It shouldn’t have come to this. But here we are on the brink of anarchy because of the pride, greed and vengefulness of one man, and of the indecisiveness, uncertainty and lack of leadership of another.
Let me repeat: We reap what we sow. It’s a rebellion. Put an end to it, swift, severe and certain. Or step down and let the rebels take over. The longer this crisis drags on, the closer we are and the deeper we will be in a state of anarchy.
voranaiv@bangkokpost.co.th
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this is undisputedly not only an illegal installed but a bloody government: idiotic claims of 500 terrorists! (a good number imagined from the same hat that the rabbit came out of!); claiming solidiers defending the nation and public! claiming Reds using m79 (?) a weapon that can be complemented with other models of weapons (such as the newer M203) used only ONLY by the army; Nuttawut said last night that there are more army snipers used now than anytime in the past and its is the easiest way to kill people. See pics from Soi RangNam (ซอยรางน้ำ) near Century Hotel
http://thaienews.blogspot.com/2010/05/blog-post_6325.html; people killed from a snipers distance and they do not even anything in hand! even a luckless coca-cola driver got it in the head! My view is that Pro-Democracy Resistance must be strengethened as in army snipers obstructed & hindered by everyday forms of mass resistance; Abhisit and his puppet spokesperson Chula political scientist [who I had the misfortune to have once worked with in the same faculty], Panitan [long associated with right wing elements in the army] said civil war is near; well partly true as Charnwit Kasetsiri (one of the few Thai academics with remaining credibility) said, but civil war is here already here…just look outside the window. But silence since late last night. The state is determined to kill all opposition to its dictatorial rule through the bullet where cultural hegemony failed
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There has been a lot of chat about a supposedly fake image showing red-shirt casualties. This may explain it.
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The clip shows folk lying on the ground trying to fake death to avoid being shot: the person killed in this clip is named น้องเฌอ aged 17…
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as at 0700 hours 24 confirmed killed, 198 seriously injured
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sorry mistake: 198 ordinary folk dead in total (my error): No soldiers dead
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08:00 am Bkk time, BKK Post says:
PM vows no turning back, justifies losses
“Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva is vowing to press on with efforts to secure the capital as the army warns of a possible crackdown on protesters, after a day of urban warfare which pushed the death toll to 24 after two days of fighting.
Mr Abhisit last night declared there would be no turning back even as the government struggled to restore order and normalcy to violence-torn Bangkok.
The government must move forward. We cannot retreat because we are doing things that will benefit the entire country. – Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiv……”
From http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/37383/pm-vows-no-turning-back-justifies-losses
My comments: Abhisit is out of his mind and no longer cares about civilian casualties. He still refuses to believe that many people inside and outside Bkk do not like him and want him to quit. This is the time when the int’l community must know his barbaric stand. He indeed wants to remain in power no matter how many more civilians will die. The past two days only civilians died (24), no soldiers died at all. Small details here (from sms services and taxidriver friend)
- Lumbini police station’s housing apt for police’s families was attacked with M-79 grenade. Four women injured. This must be the military’s retaliation after Lumbini police shot at the soldiers earlier.
- a resident standing on the 27th floor balcony of his apt in Raj-prarop Rd was shot dead for nothing.
- a retired police officer (will not mention his name now) is ready to replace Sae Daeng and play his role.
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I’m a little disappointed at the way people on this site are using the comment ratings system. Comments should be rated highly if they are thoughtful, insightful, well written and informative, regardless of the writer’s political stance. Worthy comments are being given the thumbs down for sympathising with the government or being critical of the reds, while idiotic pro-red comments are getting the thumbs up. Can we try to be a bit more objective? I thought the aim of this site was to host intelligent debate, not propagandise in favour of a particular cause.
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Thousands rally in Ubon last night.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjZmNOWpOeQ
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http://siampolitics.wordpress.com/2010/05/16/faking-dead-reds/
Nope. The video clip and photos clearly showed ‘faking dead reds’.
And there are lots of utube clips w/ Reds armed w/ M79 and assault rifles.
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“My comments: Abhisit is out of his mind and no longer cares about civilian casualties. He still refuses to believe that many people inside and outside Bkk do not like him and want him to quit. This is the time when the int’l community must know his barbaric stand. He indeed wants to remain in power no matter how many more civilians will die.”
This puts it exactly right. What this man and the woman who backs him are doing is appalling. When this is done, the reds must clean the stables. A lot of people need to do some serious jail time, including the owner of a stolen diamond. Jail and permanent exile.
Thais have no use for this kind of person in their midst.
Clean the stables, this is madness and folly – beyond any reason.
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“idiotic pro red comments” sounds like Waites has already shown his political objectivity?
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“I’m a little disappointed at the way people on this site are using the comment ratings system. Comments should be rated highly if they are thoughtful, insightful, well written and informative, regardless of the writer’s political stance. Worthy comments are being given the thumbs down for sympathising with the government or being critical of the reds, while idiotic pro-red comments are getting the thumbs up. Can we try to be a bit more objective? I thought the aim of this site was to host intelligent debate, not propagandise in favour of a particular cause.”
It was always going to be thus Daniel, rating systems have never worked that I have seen, because people are unable or unwilling to separate the quality of a comment from its content. Rating systems are inevitably used to score points off people of opposing view, and to support one’s own view. Sadly.
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Something that doesn’t seem to have been discussed or commented on much during this crisis is the question of who makes up the army.
In previous conflicts I’d given little thought to who the soldiers were but the fact that one of my closest friends has just been called up for military service has rather focused my attention on this issue.
I would imagine he is quite typical of the type of Thai who ends up stuck doing military service. From a poor family in Nakhon Sawan and having absolutely no desire to be in the army. He was chosen randomly by the coloured ball selection process, physically and personality wise he’s not exactly an obvious candidate for a military career.
I’d be very interested to know what proportion of the Thai army is made up of these conscripted recruits and what proportion consists of career soldiers.
Do people who’ve been out on the streets this week have any information on what kind of soldiers have been sent into action? Has anyone been talking to the soldiers at all?
Fortunately for my friend, he has to complete three months of training before he can be sent to any front lines, but if these conscripted soldiers are being used in the current crisis there are a number of obvious consequences.
Firstly soldiers who never wanted to be soldiers in the first place are presumedly likely to be rather ineffective soldiers. Equally soldiers who are on a two year national service program are going to be especially reluctant to put themselves in harms way. Surely any indecision or hesitation from soldiers in this kind of crisis is dangerous.
Secondly, if national service soldiers are being used in this crisis what will the pyschological knock on effects be. Might be hard to return to your village or hometown with the knowledge of what you’d be coerced into doing.
While there seems a lot of sympathy here for the cause of the red shirts, if not always their actions, people seem to spare little thought for the soldiers, who may have ended up in this situation though anything but their own choice.
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Does anyone here still think this situation is about preserving/ restoring democracy?
I don’t, and never have. It’s just about preserving/ restoring the particular status quo of all the ‘interested’ parties, who, by the way, have a lot to lose should they be ‘defeated’.
And to be clear, when I say interested parties, I do not mean those innocents who have been hoodwinked into believing that they are fighting for some higher ideal.
I mean those guys with a fancy apartment, big car, overseas bank accounts – you get the picture, I’m sure.
A fight for democracy? A smoke screen, morelike.
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HRW demands “revoke the live fire zones”
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/05/15/thailand-revoke-live-fire-zones-bangkok
=
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Army shooting at medics and civilians and anybody moving :
http://twitter.com/bkkbase
@AndrewHurd Will go out again tonight if possible. Everything is out of Rajviti Hospital which is in a bad area.
5 minutes ago via TweetDeck in reply to AndrewHurd
@AndrewHurd Most strange was driving on Rama IX highway and the city in darkness except for the red aircraft warning lights on rooftops.
7 minutes ago via TweetDeck in reply to AndrewHurd
@AndrewHurd Soldiers have really gone crazy. Inexperienced troops scared to death shooting at anything that moves.
9 minutes ago via TweetDeck in reply to AndrewHurd
@AndrewHurd One ambulance medic was shot at army checkpoint because didn’t get out of ambulance quick enough. Maybe in afternoon.
9 minutes ago via TweetDeck in reply to AndrewHurd
@AndrewHurd Ambulance crews going out in groups. Scared to death of any soldiers. Saw soldiers at a few staging areas and moved immediately.
11 minutes ago via TweetDeck in reply to AndrewHurd
@AndrewHurd Will write it up but very quiet. Passed Vic Monument right after shooting and grenade attack. After that quiet.
12 minutes ago via TweetDeck in reply to AndrewHurd
@thaifaq From what I can gather, it is Army shooting into crowds to disperse them.
16 minutes ago via TweetDeck in reply to thaifaq
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Taylor, since you have failed to understand my post I will clarify it for you. I do not mean to say that all pro-red posts are ‘idiotic’, merely that some of them are, and that they are being rated as ‘quality’ comments by people purely because they agree with the sentiment. There are plenty of people making excellent contributions on all sides – red, yellow and neutral.
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@Peter. If you are right, it must only be the medical profession that still likes the King. Last time he appeared on TV I was in a hospital and all the nurses that could spare a minute from their work were huddled round the TV screen in obvious adulation. Perhaps then the real motive for the red shirts’ storming of Chulalongkorn Hospital was to root out closet monarchists to be displayed on the red stage. I disagree that villagers put portraits of the Royal Family in their houses only out of fear of legal prosecution. What nonsense! Anyway, good luck to Giles in leading his Bolshevik revolution from the city of perspiring dreams where the capitalist bourgeousie and the peasants seem to have got decidedly mixed up.
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Army shooting at photographers (well loads got shot on April 10th and yesterday).
It seems their tactic is to scare away the media, scare away as many people as possible and then perhaps tonight they will send in “killing squads” based on their “curfew” who are licensed to shoot to kill anyone and anything moving.
At least the rest of the world can see what is going on, sadly the Thai media is under total control of the governments propaganda departments, and only shows soldiers injured and claims all reds have guns and are terrorists.
Perhaps why its only reds killed and no soldiers……. how can they lie so openly and with disregard. A government gone crazy !
http://twitter.com/bretonbkk
ANd they had their hands in the air and were showing their cameras, they ran back for cover…
about 1 hour ago via TweetDeck
Just got call from friend photog who was walking out of Soi Rangnam with another Cameraman and got shot at by nervous soldiers from abt 80 m
about 1 hour ago via TweetDeck
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Another two people killed appearing at Rama Hospital- no names yet…And another Nor Por Chor platform has been established in Klong Toey by Prateep Ungsongtham Hata and the Thailand Student Association (not sure which branch? anyone know?)
I actually dont think (reference D.Waites #64) that there is any room for a middle ground or inbetween since a legitimately elected government was overthrown in the eighteenth (?) coup; when the progressive and democratic 1997 Constitution was thrown out the window and rewritten by the military and their puppets, and when Abhisit refused to negotiate on equal terms with pro-democracy Nor Por Chor (not just say one thing and do another -which the now named “Butcher of Bangkok” Abhisit is good at); assuming anything like a middle ground anymore is more wishful thinking than reality.
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An inevitable third factor is seemingly starting to emerge: Has anyone heard that the army since late last night has been engaged in open conflict among themselves (needs to be confirmed by first hand accounts and, if so, at which sites). Meanwhile Abhisit is declaring a curfew in BKK…The Butcher of Bangkok may have to keep the propaganda machinery grinding over soon with more fiction (how about bringing out the old favourite: blaming Thaksin!)
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I see SmithJones twitter comments have received 1 red thumbs down.
So, who ever you are, would you like to comment openly on the forum and explain why shooting at medics and civilians is, in your opinion, ok?
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Does anyone have any info about what is going on upcountry? Are protests forming in the provinces under the emergency decree?
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BBC’s Alastair Leithead filming soldiers firing live ammo at unarmed protestors.
Explain that one away Abhisit and cronies.
http://twitter.com/aleithead
Filming M16 with live rounds being fired at people on Rama 4. Firing right now in direction of unarmed protesters lighting tyres & f/works.
21 minutes ago via TweetDeck
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I live in the Rajaparop area and have been walking around most of the morning. I also had to go to the PhiyaThai 1 hospital to get some medicine. I see (or hear) no supporting evidence of the army shooting indiscriminately and medics and there was certainly none of that discussion at the hospital. What i do see, is evidence of grenade attacks on the troops, with small craters and blast ‘scars’ on the road surface.What would be really valuable as commentary is some discussion in this forum of the Red Shirts prior diatribes from the stage, especially Natawut’s on Friday about what he would do to Bangkok. Also, Arisman’s previous comments made in ChaingMai. While the violence is awful, perhaps there is some balance to be found rather than just attacking the Government?
As to the ‘who makes up the army’ a very good question; the troops in my area are largely conscript and when asked about this current event, as opposed to last Songkran’s events in exactly the same area, the answer is very much the same. We have our duty. What i did personally find quite interesting was the level of professionalism with the officers and having had to negotiate the area on Saturday, far from being the rabid homicidal maniacs that the press are making them out to be, they were calm and professional. (I’m sure that comment alone will get plenty of thumbs down). In discussion, it would seem that this has move from a protest to a rebellion, (Kaboht) as they were saying. ‘If it was a protest we would not be here…’ (i can hardly wait to see how many thumbs down anything pro or even neutral to the army gets…..)
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There is a source from the police at Rama IV said that the Marine actually went in the help rescue the 3 injured from the Police flat after the attack, but this is not confirmed.
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@ Mugford. Your Israeli video of the firing of an M79 grenade launcher seems to disprove your point, since there is quite a lot of smoke coming out of the grenade launcher fired by the guy in the night shirt, only is blown away immediately by the strong wind.
The weapon being fired by the non-violent red shirt protestor doesn’t look like a flare gun at all which is normally a snub nosed type of pistol. It looks just like the pistol grip version of the M79 grenade launcher that looks like a sawed off shotgun and is very convenient for urban guerilla warfare due its ease of concealment, even though it is not so accurate. There is, indeed, quite a lot of smoke, as indeed there is in your example but you don’t know what kind of 40mm ammunition the reds are using. The amount of smoke produced by any kind of gun varies a lot according to the type of powder used in the load. For example the same pistol will make a lot more smoke using cheap locally produced ammunition from Thai Firearms than it will with ammunition imported from the US or Europe. Maybe the Boss has been cutting corners again.
Take another look at the two videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyNT4Nn7uR0&feature=related
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I don’t know exactly what the red shirt guy was firing but it surely wasn’t a slingshot.
Remember the raid on two factories illegally producing grenade launchers? Were they making them exactly to the original specs?
They quite possibly could be crude knock offs that only resemble the originals.
The fact is that about two dozen grenades were fired at both civilians and the army in the past couple of days.
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http://forum.serithai.net/download/file.php?id=6605
A resting black clad red shirt with a handgun in his “bare” hands.
The pic could have been staged, though.
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Chris – I take the point that it can escalate slowly in Thailand. At the same time, the protesters have a limited window of opportunity to build momentum before either the military restores order and/or the international media loses interest. We haven’t see this escalate into mass civil disobedience (yet) and the government is partially winning the PR war in labeling the remaining protesters as “terrorists”.
Jim – the “roadmap” comparison, especially in regards to Israel/Palestine is very apt. I did interpret the news that the government would offer new elections. However, I didn’t expect the powers that be would allow it to be entirely free and fair (after all, that would mean the ruling class handing over substantial ruling power). But that is another issue and repeated protest (or threat of civil disobedience) would have arguably been a better tactic in constraining the government’s actions in this regard.
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