[UPDATE: a full Thai translation is available here. A French translation is available here.]
Sitting here at home, I wonder if this day, the 15th of May, has been real, or just a terrible nightmare. Never in my whole life have I been so scared. I thought that I am going to die today.
At lunch time I went to Samliem Din Daeng to observe the protesters there. There were a few protesters around, not more than a few hundred. Lots of debris from last night’s clashes. A burned out military truck, still smoldering. People brought tires to build barricades. A municipal water truck was brought.
After a while the protesters moved the truck along Rajaparop Road towards the military lines, to use as a barricade against army fire. A few protesters moved a few dozen tires to build a barricade. One of the protesters joked around with a slingshot, in front of the cameras of us photographers: “See – that are our weapons against the soldiers”.
[Click on images for larger versions; scroll over for captions.]
The protesters moved the tires further along the road, in front of the Shell gas station near Soi Rang Naam. I positioned myself at the gas station as cover, in case the army would open fire. And straight away the army opened fire. Maybe 5 meters from me, on the road a small group of protesters was stuck behind the tires while bullets passed by. It made a sickening sound when bullets hit the protester who had just joked around with us – in the arm and in the stomach. A few protesters on our side tried to throw a rope over to pull the injured protester to us, but it did not work. The shooting never stopped. Another protester, who tried to crawl away, was hit in the leg and the shoulder. One guy managed to run over to us. I began losing any sense of time. One more of the group managed to cross over to us. Another guy was hit in the arm. After a while the two lightly injured guys ran over to us, one of them falling and crawling into safety. I feared he was hit again.
In the back of the gas station was a toilet, a small temporary safe zone. The guy with the shoulder and leg wounds had only grazing wounds. He, the other protester with the injured arm, and a few journos climbed over the wall. I went back to the old spot, to see what happened with the protesters still stuck behind the tires. One more protester made it into safety, ran across the gas station.
With terror I realized that the soldiers began moving to us. Shots were fired into the gas station. I hid first behind a car parked there, but had a bad feeling that I was in the very wrong spot, and that I had to get out as fast as I could. I ran back to the toilets, about 40 meters, realizing that I was shot at while I was running. My legs nearly gave in. Naked terrible unbelievable fear.
Right after the man with the gut shot was dragged there as well. I took a few photos, and made it over the wall as well. I jumped into a nice garden with a main house and a two wooden side houses. In the back were a few journalists and protesters. The people who lived there gave us water. I saw that at the wall the injured guy was lifted over, and went there trying to help. I heard soldiers running in the gas station behind the wall. The two people who lifted the man over ran towards the house. I couldn’t make it anymore, and pressed myself behind some bushes against the wall. I saw the injured man slip into a small artificial lake at the wall, maybe ten meters besides me.
Behind the wall, at the gas station, I heard soldiers shouting. Some people must have still been stuck in the toilets. Suddenly there was a long burst of gunfire, I saw shells flying over the wall. I heard pleading, shouting and what sounded like boots hitting flesh. I was more scared than ever in my life before, being stuck behind that wall. I prayed that just now nobody would call my mobile phone. I was terrified of the possibility that the soldiers would just fire over the wall as they must have known that people climbed over here.
I heard a soldier giving orders to come out or be shot dead. At first I thought he meant me, but I saw his head over the wall shouting at the man in the pool. I decided that I should make myself known, and shouted that I am a foreign journalist, and to please not shoot me. I shouted several times before the soldier seemed to take notice. I showed my open hands, he ordered me out. I walked towards him, and explained that the man in the water had a gut shot, and a bad shot in the arm. He floated in the pool, his face and stomach barely above the waterline.
The soldier ordered me to pull him out. Another soldier has also jumped over the wall, a third soldier secured from above the wall. While I tried to pull the man out of the water he pleaded, with a weak voice, that he just can’t take it anymore. He was too heavy. I asked one of the soldiers to help me, please. While roughly pulling at the man, he screamed that he should be dead, and because he isn’t they have to take him to the hospital, and that he should die. He walked off.
The injured man slipped back into the pool. The second soldier helped me pull him out, while the first kept on screaming. The soldier on the wall ordered me to take care of the man. I said that I have no idea how – he has a bad gut shot, and lifted the man’s shirt to show the small hole in the stomach. I just knelt down. The man asked me to lift his mangled arm and to turn him on his side as he can’t breathe anymore. I did so, while the man grunted with pain.
The soldiers ordered a stretcher, and ordered me not to take any photos. The first soldier went towards the house. I told him that there are several foreign journalists there. At gun point he ordered them out, and ordered them to carry the injured man out on the stretcher through the door of the compound leading to the gas station. I just sat down at the house, I was nearly fainting, my hands were shaking.
It took a long time to somewhat compose myself. We heard sirens from rescue vehicle coming, and shots fired from the soldiers in the gas station. The people of the compound made us coffee. Ten, a Neow Na photographer, managed to communicate by phone with the outside world, and relayed that we were stuck here – Thilo Thielke, the Spiegel correspondent, a Indonesian camera team, a local photographer for ABC news, me, and a few protesters that were on the spot promoted to drivers of us foreign journalists.
I called my wife and several colleagues on the outside that I was safe. We heard of other journalists having been injured in the mess. The conversations over the phone how to get us out took hours. The gunfire continued for a long time. In the distance, from the direction of the stage area we heard a few M79 explosions. We did not hear any firing from the direction of Samliem Din Daeng. Appearantly the CRES, including the PM, had a top level meeting about us. The people in the compound made us all dinner.The owner of the house came, he spoke fluent German, lived many years there, and worked there about ten minutes walking distance from my dad’s apartment.
When we finished dinner, we were advised to get out from the main door of the compound, through the gas station, and walk towards the soldiers at Soi Rang Naam. We asked that soldiers could please pick us up because we don’t trust to just walk out in the open. The answer was that the soldiers would then be targeted, and they can’t pick us up. We decided that we had to find a way over the back wall. It became dark. We were told that snipers were on all high-rises, and that another, unknown, force may fight the soldiers, and that therefore it would be impossible to pick us up.
There were many more phone calls, and discussions of which way would be safe. Finally, we climbed with a ladder over the wall, where a man picked us up. The gunfire started again, rather close to us, we had to move to a safer spot at a apartment building. After some discussion we decided on the way, climbed another wall into a small Soi. People were around. We asked for the safest route out. At the top of the alley it became dark, really dark. A few Red Shirt protesters were there. We were just under the flyover at Samliem Din Daeng.
Looking out at the Soi on the right, was like staring into the abyss, smoke, and pure darkness into which the flyover disappeared. We turned left, towards Victory Monument. A few people were hiding in the shadows. Soon we came into lighter territory, many locals in front of their houses. When I reached Victory Monument I heard monks chanting. More than a hundred monks sat at the bottom of the monument, praying for an end of the killing. I took a motorcycle taxi home. My motorcycle I had to leave parked in a Soi inside the killing zone.

















I’d been missing Nick – and was wondering when, or if – he would return. This is Western, on the spot, journalism at its’ best !
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Hey Nick..
hope you are well and be safe..
take care
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by the way..
the VDO version is here.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=123968350962277
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Amazing photos and article..Agree w/ Chris above.. news reporting at its best !
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Glad you are OK. Saw you in a video a while back so knew you were safe then.
I do have one question and you may want to defer it here, but you can always email me the answer. There is a lot of talk by CRES and the PM about the Reds being armed, I’m not talking sticks, stones, bottle rockets, homemade stuff or slingshots but actual war weapons. “Have you seen or had a shot of Reds actually shooting at the Army with war weapons?”
So far there seems to be no pictures in existence, at least not from what I have seen or the people I’ve talked to that are also covering the situation. Even the Post and Nation only have pictures of the Military firing, my thinking is that if there was any they would have them front and center.
.
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Many of them are not peaceful protesters.
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Where is M79? Where is machine gun? Where is terrorist? Where is war weapon? We can only see stick, slingshots,stone. The Thai government is full of bastards, big liars, hooligans,terrorists and big bully. The kill innocent people with snipers, who hide themselves on the building and shoot at every passer by. It is time for all citizens to wake up and overturn them. We cannot let this government and those people behind them to stay any longer. The longer we let them stay, the more they will kill innocent people. Normal citizens are no longer important to them any more. The only group that are important to them are soldiers, Democrats Party, yellow-shirt. Those tyrants behind this government will have to be hung.
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Let me inform the world that there are much more corpses, much more dead bodies than what the government informed us. Thousand of bags for dead bodies were given to the army to pick up any corpses after they were killed, followed by army trucks. That was the reason why they shot any target to scar away those reporters from taking any picture.
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It is very clear now – to ordinary so-called “Thais” – that the Bangkok elite will never treat them as equal citizens, more likely as cattle to be killed whenever they get out of line.
It is now time for Isaarn to SECEDE from the fascist construct
“Thailand”. To form a separate state in alliance with Lanna.
Isaarn also has its’ own language and culture, which Bangkok “Thai” show no signs of ever accepting on equal terms, with equal respect.
Isaarn is a separate NATION, no longer part of “Thailand”.
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Everybody should read this.
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I don’t understand how the government can say that the snipers are some sort of third force. The government controls the area around the protest, and it is clear that the shots are coming from snipers in high places. If you were the army and someone was shooting people from areas you control and blaming it on you, wouldn’t you occupy those high places, and flush out those snipers?
It is clear they are army snipers, and that they are shooting unarmed protesters. The technical phrase for this is “extra-judicial killing”, while the vernacular would be “cold-blooded murder”.
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Nick–I haven’t seen you in years. I am so glad you are OK. Keep going with your fantastic work!
Josh
A different world in Montreal
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and the Thais just joined the UN Human rights council. This is quite ironic.! Kasit is now going to tajikstan to thank the Islamic Council for voting for them.
The sad part about is that the US and other governments in the world will not condemn or do anything to the Democrats and the Thai Military. This is the worst form of human rights abuse we have seen. Snipers killing civilians and journalists. There is no excuse or way to justify this horror…
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Dear Nick,
Thank you very much for your good report. Wish you’re fine & safe, please be careful since today government still order Thai army to make protest over.
I’m Thai and living in Nonthaburi, nearby province of Bangkok. I couldn’t catch up the real information from the killing zone due to government screen all reports or cut / select only some part of video clip that support them on TV / radio in order to push forward to kill innocent people who just ask for fresh election.
I ever believed that Thailand is democracy but it’s not, we become closer to Mynmar.
Dear Nok,
Please try to check information from the other source out off what Thai government keep trying to annonce. Killing people is unacceptable, especially innocent people who just try to fight back with what they can find e.g. stone,stling shot, strick. If I were there, I’ll also do the same thing to protect myself.
Dear Peter,
Thank you very much for your kind heart. I couldn’t do much here, I ‘ve sent out e-mail to UN in New York & Thailand branch to help my country.
Thanks & best regards,
Ten
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dear K.Nok
only one clip that you have showing up.
compared with another some hundreds clips from thai’s army.
can’t you really see the truth by your self?
pls keep your eyes wider. or either we will be in the war.
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God speed Nick.
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There is clear evidence from CNN, other media, photo’s and other sources that Army snipers are shooting to kill unarmed protesters.
This is a pure “scare tactic” to keep them in hiding and the numbers down, however this is illegal under all rules of engagement.
Abhisit and his cronies are now on par with Saddam and his actions against the people of Iraq.
This must go to International courts and the government leaders and army commanders must be put on trial in International courts for this.
Thailand needs to be an example now that governments cannot simply kill the people, or Thailand will fall further into becoming the “next Burma” where the elite/military have absolute power.
There must be legal retribution against Abhisit and his cronies now but the world community.
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Nick…… Keep on keepin on our brother…. It is Men like yourself, getting in the middle… seeing, first hand what the Truth really is… that make this the New Reality of Journalism…. People do not have any use for ‘half truths’ these days ….. you see and report the real story from the people, to the people and that is what is necessary for our Civilization to progress in the most rational fashion, and the best way to confront and to resolve this current situation. Be safe friend, and keep doing what you are doing. It is indeed good for the world to see and read the Truths you report. Your courage in journalism is to be admired….. —Charles
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Dear Nick,
It is good that you are safe now. Could you please allow my comment to be posted with some links to video on Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_xg0l6-oHY
^^ black shirt with military gun appears around 0.50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hmSPbugDAA
^^ M79 shooter from artificial Red shirts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21MjSONuht8
^^ Sniper protects the truck’s fuel tank by aiming at leg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuEMHeGxbuI
^^ Military sniper… not shooting to kill… 1:11 Standing solider “Already Toppled”.. They aimed at legs.. as same as above clip.
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Read this and cry:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/178053/pm-sends-e-mail-to-un-chief
The chutzpah of this government has reached gigantic proportions:
“Mr Panitan said the situation on Saturday night to Sunday morning was improving and that the tension has been eased.
He admitted that men in military uniform had infiltrated and killed red-shirt protesters to incite violence.”
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Hi Nick, thanks. It seems that the Thai Government dont care any more about the Thai people symphaty or the symphaty of the rest of the world. It is havily working on downgrading the worth of every single Thai. They can’t no longer be proud to be Thai citicents after the government treads them like this. This is so very sad because it want stick for a long time.
Please take care we need you!
Evi (you rembember?)
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Stay safe Nick, don’t overdo it! It’s family that matters most, will ya?
Thanks for this excellent report. And again, keep your head down.
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This government deserves to fall, and fall hard.
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Nick, you must be running on pure adrenalin by now. Maybe a rest with a few beers will help.
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Lieber Nick,
Lange nichts von Dir gehoehrt mein Lieber und nun das… Toller Artikel, ausdrucksvolle Bilder – nichts anderes war von Dir zu erwarten. Aber um Himmel willen – pasz’ auf Dich auf!
Grusz, Dein Eugen, Wasana, Maximilian und Hanna
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Thanks, Nick for this report. We, Thais, do not get these kind of stories from Thai TV or Thai mass media–we got only one-side stories, the government’s side. They call the protesters repeatedly over their TV “armed terrorists”!!
And Peter Boyle, thanks for speaking out for me –I feel exactly like that. You can see traces of the injustice and oppression which has run the country for decades out in the streets of Bangkok these few days. This government does not see people as “their” people but “enemies of the state” to be rid of as challenges of their power. How many lives will have to be given up for “true democracy”?? I wonder.
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I’m lost for words. Incredible story, Nick.
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Excerpt from Bangkok Post opinion
The United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) argue against the Democrat-led coalition government’s legitimacy and protest for the government to step down and call a general election.
That was democracy.
And the UDD had won.
The goals of the UDD from the very start: They wanted a House dissolution. They will have one in September. They wanted a general election. They will have one on Nov 14. All within seven months and PM Abhisit Vejjajiva’s term actually ends in January 2012, a year and a half from now.
They should be dancing in the streets, celebrating victory. Then we can all go to the voting booth in November. Peace and democracy. But no.
The truth has revealed itself. The United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship is simply using democracy as a front in the interests of dictatorship.
Refusing the peaceful compromise, forsaking the democratic process, continuing to harm the country for the interests of one man, Thaksin Shinawatra, fighting against security forces of the rightful democratic government of Thailand _ that’s an uprising, it’s a rebellion.
It’s criminal. That is not democracy.
If you disagree with me and think the UDD is in the right, then let me simplify it: The next time you’re pulled over by the law in a traffic stop, you should just burn tyres, shoot slingshots at the cop and call him a dictator.
Anyone with an arrest warrant? No need to surrender. Barricade and fortify your home, fire slingshots and fire-crackers and call the law tyrannical.
Buy a lifetime membership to the Association of Anarchists. You don’t belong in a civilisation.
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I said a while back that Thailand would encounter a Ceausescu scenario, and it is working out that way. I also said that the army would get tired and frightened of the consequences of committing brazen murder under orders and would rebel, that a weary and terrified Anupong would probably do a deal and launch a coup for the Reds.
As outrageous as it seems, I still think that this may happen, in which case, Abhisit, Suthep and others will not face a court but an ad-hoc firing squad. I for one will shed no tears. Not now, not after what they have done.
The stables need cleaning, and it has to happen starting from the top.
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Nick!
It´s still obvious to western main stream media that
Thailand is looked upon by them as a democracy and that they wouldn´t label what´s going on as a massacre of un armed protesters. Interesting…
ThC, Sweden
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Bless Bangkok and hopefully this ends soon. Stay safe Nick – Your photo brings an alternative perspective to this conflict and hopefully it is seen by the world.
Abhisit needs to payfor this.
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I live right near Ratchaprarop/Din Daeng/Soi Rangnam and it’s real spooky to see all this happening. I’ve been circulating around all of this but I keep my distance. I can’t imagine getting closer and closer to it like some of these journalists like Nick. You are playing with your life! I just hope that Nick doesn’t get unlucky.
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Nick, you are making the world a better place. I can only pray that you follow through with your witnessing and exposing the truth.
It is now your solemn duty to give light to the victims of this continuing atrocity so they don’t disappear from the attention of the public even if the injured and dead are trucked away into oblivion.
You are a brave man, and I hope you can stand up to a government that lost its spine upon conception.
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Nick, Thailand thanks you. Continue to tell the truth to power. But be safe!
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Why don’t you inform about the ROADMAP that the government gave to RED SHIRT
And why don’t you publish the photo of bottle bombs , the burnt garbage truck , and gas cylinders from the protesters.
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Signore Nostitz, even though I find myself in the royalist-conservative camp in this conflict, I do pray that you remain safe and sound. I enjoy reading your articles. The work you produce is timely, relevant and informative. Kudos to you and your professionalism. Yet minimize your risk. However, it is imperative that you do document as much of the truth as possible. This government and their handlers are determined to destroy the Red Shirts in Bangkok in the next 48 hours and they will take measures to keep the press away from the scene (particularly foreigners) or to censor reports filed by Thai journalists. Use your network and collect all the still images, video and eyewitness accounts possible. Through my contacts within the Thai military, I can tell you that bodies are disappearing and a counter-narrative has been prepared already.
By the way, it is being said amongst certain Thai military circles that the Red Shirts should be called Red Ants for their ability to swarm and to bounce back from the hits. Will David be able to slay Goliath?
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The previous two administrations came to power in the same way as the present one – no red shirts complained then. The last, thankfully brief government headed by Taksins brother-in-law (what a surprise) wasn’t elected – no red shirts protested then. This is all about one man determined to become Thailands first President for Life. He has no respect for the King, despite what he says, he has no love or concern for the innocent people he is making suffer. This present Government should have moved quicker to end the demonstrations. However, they have been hampered by various factions of the military who have their own agenda. Now people are realising that 500 baht a day isn’t worth getting killed for.
Get rid of the guy in Dubai “dying in the desert”, all this will end.
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The Bangkok Post of today quotes Abhisit as having said in his TV address of yesterday:
“Losses will have to be endured. It is the only way to righteousness.”
When Somchai Wongsawat’s actions as prime minister led to the death of two PAD protesters in October 2008, Abhisit sounded very much different (according to Matichon Weekend, 23-29 April 2010:9):
“Regarding the entire incident, the prime minister cannot reject being responsible for not performing his duties, or for intending that this incident would occur. But what is worse is to blame the officials, that is, to slander the people. I could not think or dream that we would have a state that does harm to the people, even including deaths and severe injuries, and still have a state that even shifts responsibility to the people. This behavior is unacceptable.
I have heard the government asking this or that person whether they were Thai or not. But regarding your [Somchai Wongsawat] behavior, are you a Thai or not? Are you human or not? Today, politically, your legitimacy is gone already. We demand that the prime minister shows responsibility.” Abhisit referred to resignation or the dissolution of parliament. If Somchai remained idle, this would do harm to the country, and to the political system.
“There is no democratic political system in this world in which the people are harmed by the state, but the government that came from the people does not show responsibility. … Even if the PAD had done something wrong, the government had no right to do harm to the people.”
When the reporters asked Abhisit at that time how come that there could be such a big crisis, while the PM could still remain in office, Abhisit briefly but clearly answered:
“I cannot answer this. I have never been such a person. The normal human beings that I know are not of this kind.”
The paper concludes, “Abhisit’s words in the past and his actions in the present are totally opposite.”
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Nick – I agree with Max @34 above.
I’d add this – compared to your previous reports, this time what you’ve written seems substantially better than the photos you’ve taken.
Was there a reason for this ?
Was photographing this time harder / more difficult than say during the Songkran riots ?
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I just love this
“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_xg0l6-oHY
^^ black shirt with military gun appears around 0.50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hmSPbugDAA
^^ M79 shooter from artificial Red shirts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21MjSONuht8
^^ Sniper protects the truck’s fuel tank by aiming at leg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuEMHeGxbuI
^^ Military sniper… not shooting to kill… 1:11 Standing solider “Already Toppled”.. They aimed at legs.. as same as above clip.”
and here is some questions:-
1. Why the Red didn’t accept the PM’s road map? I’m Thai and I think it is very fair for everyone included me and no color people.
2. If bare hand people protect the terrorists as you can see in many clip, how the UN or any international org deal with them?
3. If the PM dissolve the parliament as request, Thailand will stuck in the protest-dissolve cycle.
4. This government is absolutely lawful. I have no idea why lawful one have to surrender the terrorist back-up one.
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thanks for the great reporting the world must know whats going on i am so shocked!! bless bangkok hope it ends soon, you are a brave man
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@ Chris Beale. Although it is a taboo subject and almost certainly academic in nature, you raise an interesting point of what a theoretical redivision of Thailand would look like with a revived Lanna state, incorporating the Isaan provinces and a Siam incorporating the Central, Eastern and Southern provinces. Public finances of the landlocked Lanna state would be extremely tight, since the North and Northeastern provinces are net recipients of tax revenues by a large margin. This would be a challenging job for the finance minister but no doubt the president-for-life designate could raise some gilt edged Lanna securities on global roadshows to countries that will issue him a visa. It would also be interesting to see Lannanese citizens applying for work permits and competing with Burmese for unskilled jobs in Siam.
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You’re a hero Nick
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http://www.saedang.freeforums.org/topic-t2080.html
the link above is from a website/forum which calls up the Thai people to attack the army, start looting and burn government buildings.
They make extra income by GOOGLE ads and have been SMS ing people to click on the ads to support their fight
Hope that you stay away from the terrorist in future, people who are innocent stay away, only people looking for trouble roam the streets and are not innocent as soon as the start roaming ,fighting and looting
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dear Coco Tan, i read bangkok post too
you sum up well but you missed some points :
1. the shootings by govt to that people who burned tyres at the traffic stop. military usually has the skill to disperse this kind of protest without shooting directly. why don’t Govt put intel agent on the red camp and try to find those ones called terrorists, not just shooting from distance. Is there the only thing govt can do? shooting ?
2. you also forgot that the reds accepted the road plan and would like to go home IF government needs to show responsibility of the death casualties, not just say sorry but keep doing what we are seeing now (shootings).
we are talking about how cruel the shootings by govt.
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I think some of the comments above are naiive in the extreme. The Red shirts are highly factionalised. A hard core element seeks violent, fascist ends. A mainstream element is highly representative of popular, rural-based disaffection with the Bangkok elite.
The government is also factionalised (the police deeply so), and the army is uncertain. Abhisit has shown a certain political courage – that his roadmap for peace has collapsed supports this view.
Chavalit has played a dirty “unseen” role in prewvious events (1992) because of his control of motorcycle/soi-boy gangs. He and others are doing the same again – hence the violence in the suburbs. The counter-reaction will be a curfew and the emergence of tanks, and perhaps a coup d’etat – with the tacit backing of the palace.
The background, of course, is uncertainty around the succession and the relative positions of the various elites, and social movements such as the rural poor. The only thing that is certain about the current violence is that it will not resolve this central tension.
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Tony, that M79 video, already posted by StanG, was probably some sort of flare gun. A grenade launcher should not smoke any where near as much as that. You can have a look at youtube videos of real M79 being fired to see what I mean.
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Lost for words.
Unusual for me.
Very powerful words and photos.
The video too, I’m stunned.
This incident will resurface many many times.
Stay safe.
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Most of the best shots and videos are from foreign media, why is that?
A note to Thai media, start doing your job!
“All of us who professionally use the mass media are the shapers of society. we can vulgarize that society. We can brutalize it. Or we can help lift it onto a higher level.”
~William Bernbach, of DDB Needham Worldwide, 1989.
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Nick was very lucky to get caught in the enemy line and nothing happened to him. The others were not shot go get killed either. They were in forbidden places together with Nick.
Proves more the sincerity of the govt forces than anything else.
Maybe someone promised him a job after the red dictatorship wins?
He definitely needs one.
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As scary as this article is, and suggestive of police state tactics, it also shows that the soldiers are probably just as scared. This close proximity skirmishing, between unarmed farmers, and armed but young soldiers, is never going to end well.
But despite the threats and shouting, it is slightly comforting to know that once the protesters were wounded and cornered, the soldiers allowed some sort of aid and help, however begrudgingly.
There is a backbone of morality from both sides that stops this escalating into cold Thai-on-Thai butchering, like what may be seen in west African countries.
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Watch this clip, especially at 0.37 and 1.00-1.03. Is this unarmed red-shirt people? Take a close look again if you say so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td7lKYBfH1A&feature=player_embedded
If you can understand Thai, you will know that a topless guy asked for a weapon (maybe a gun) from a guy wearing sunglasses but the second guy rejeted his request. He was afraid that the first might not be able to aim at the right target. Later, an armed men in black ran back and called out “soldiers”. Then they all ran into the small street.
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This is going to be a long note, but I want our overseas friends to understand what has been happening here in Thailand. You would only see the soldiers’ shooting scenes or injured people being carried away on international TV channels for 30 seconds, but never got to know about the background. The truth is, the Thai government has been too accommodating by withholding the use of force since the rally started 2 months ago (with the exception of 10th April event, when the soldiers were ordered to move in without live weapons and subsequently got slaughtered by unknown gunmen shooting from the ‘Red Shirt’ protesters).
The majority of us support the government in dealing with the terrorists hidden amongst the protesters. It held talks with the rally leaders and offered peace solutions to them 10 days ago. The Prime Minister publicly urged the protesters to disperse for fear of violence created by the terrorists. But the plan wasn’t accepted. So, it’s time to block food and water supplies entering the center of the protest. If the protesters were peaceful, they wouldn’t rush out to throw rocks, firecrackers and even bombs at the soldiers’ barricade — thus, causing the soldiers to defend themselves by firing rubber bullets and live rounds.
It has been very frustrating for the law-abiding citizen of Bangkok — we even voiced our dissatisfaction at the government for its failure to uphold the laws. The situation was like Bangkok was being held for ransom. A lot of businesses got affected because it’s right in the middle of the major commercial area.
Again, think what your government would do if there were a large group of protesters blocking all traffic at Orchard Road in Singapore; Times Square in NYC; Ginza in Tokyo; or Knightsbridge in London for two months. They set up barricades to search through personal belongings of everyone travelling through the area. Also think what it would do if those protesters invaded a nearby hospital, causing doctors & nurses to evacuate patients — some of whom are newborn babies in incubators and those in ICU — to other hospitals. And most important of all, think what it would do if the protesters were found to have large stockpile of M79 grenades, M16 & AK47 assault rifles.
Do you think your government would be as tolerant as the Thai government?
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Dear Nick
Thank you so much for your articles and thank God that you are ok.
I have many friends who doesn’t believe that Red Shirts is not “Terrorists”. They just believe anything that Thai Gov. announces through Thai TV.
I just can’t believe that my own Thai friends support Thai Army to kill the red shirts!
I’m so worry about the situation and the protestors. I always believe that they need REAL democracy for my country and they are now fighting for it. I shame on myself that can not do anything to help them.
One thing I can do is to share some truth to everyone I know including your articles and pray to God for my country peaceful.
Thanks again and God Bless
Orawan S. F.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cl2A8JZdlY
This link is to another video of the incident you describe nick.
I have been doing some reading on the Thai privy council and its difficult to find out its real political power. What does worry me is that the council appears to be dominated by dictators, Surayud Chulanont, Prem Tinsulanonda, Tanin Kraivixien here we have 3 men who between them can be held responsible for 4 coup, 2 massacare ( I’m not including present one) and 11 years of dictatorship. If this is the kind of CV needed to be a privy councilor what of the others I have little information on them maybe someone can enlighten me.
I copied this list from Wiki so don’t know if its fully up to date
General Prem Tinsulanonda เปรม ติณสูลานนท์ 4 September 1998 President of the Privy Council of Thailand
Dr. Chaovana na Silavanta เชาวน์ ณ ศีลวันต์ 19 December 1975 Director of the Crown Property Bureau
Tanin Kraivixien ธานินทร์ กรัยวิเชียร 15 December 1977 Former Prime Minister (1976–1977)
Rear Admiral Mom Luang Usni Pramoj อัศนี ปราโมช 3 March 1984 Former Businessman
Air Vice Marshal Kamthon Sindhavananda กำธน สินธวานนท์ 28 November 1987 Former Director of the Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand
Air Chief Marshal Siddhi Savetsila สิทธิ เศวตศิลา 24 December 1991 Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (1980–1990)
General Pichitr Kullavanijaya พิจิตร กุลละวณิชย์ 13 July 1993 Former Deputy Commander of the Supreme Command HQ
Ampol Senanarong อำพล เสนาณรงค์ 9 September 1994 Former Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Cooperatives
Chamras Kemacharu จำรัส เขมะจารุ 15 November 1994 Former President of the Supreme Court of Justice
Mom Rajawongse Thepkamol Devakula เทพกมล เทวกุล 7 August 1997 Former Diplomat
Palakorn Suwanarat พลากร สุวรรณรัฐ 18 July 2001 Forr Minister of Education
Kasem Watanachai เกษม วัฒนชัย 18 July 2001 Former Deputy Permanent Secretary to the Interior Ministry
Sawat Wathanakorn สวัสดิ์ วัฒนายากร 18 July 2002 Former Judge of the Supreme Administrative Court
General Surayud Chulanont สุรยุทธ์ จุลานนท์ 14 November 2003 / 8 April 2008 Former Prime Minister (2007), resigned from the Council, then reappointed
Santi Thakral สันติ ทักราล 15 March 2005 Former President of the Supreme Court of Justice
Admiral Chumpol Patchusanont ชุมพล ปัจจุสานนท์ 15 March 2005 Former Commander of the Royal Thai Navy
Atthaniti Disatha-Amnarj อรรถนิติ ดิษฐอำนาจ 16 August 2007 Former President of the Supreme Court of Justice
Supachai Phungam ศุภชัย ภู่งาม 8 April 2008 Former President of the Supreme Court of Justice
18 Chanchai Likitjitta ชาญชัย ลิขิตจิตถะ 8 April 2008 Former President of the Supreme Court of Justice and Minister of Justice
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Your comments ‘TONY’ are exactly the reason that these poor people are out on the streets. Abbisit and his unelected gang will be brought up on charges by the UN. Saddam thought that he could get away with it. Remember him? This in NOT 1974 in Thailand and Murders on this scale can’t be covered up. Crimes againt The Thai People…….It WILL Happen. The poor are talking, start listening, and they don’t have ‘cake to eat’!!
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The soldiers only allowed first aid cos the foreign journos were there.
They stomped and shot the ones who didnt make it over the wall..
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In response to Peter Boyles: wow you really are misinformed and don’t understand the current situation.
The government has given ENOUGH time and patience to try and resolve this issue, yet the protesters keep on making ridiculous demands. How can you dissolve government as soon as there’s a protest? Is that logical in your mind? So the current government stuck to their proposal and that was for the protesters to either accept the upcomming elections or not. The fact is that law and order must be maintaned, the protests stopped being peaceful a long time ago and the protesters have been given many options yet they remained defient and this has had and still has a negative effect on the ecomony and safety of the general population of Thailand. When the army steps up with live rounds .. I think it’s time to leave, right? There has been enough bloodshed already. I also don’t believe that the protesters are all unarmed. It’s time to end the bloodshed and the protests and hopefully resolve this with an election. Hopefully that will keep everyone happy, but I somehow doubt it.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w9YJVR_HEM
watch closely 2.45 sec
I don’t know that kind off bomb but it seems lethal.
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Thanks Nick,… it’s really a quality report. I’m going to work in Sathorn area tomorrow, although Thai government already annouced holiday on May 17-18. (doesn’t make any different to me)
It will be two more days of this mad killing. The government doesn’t aware that there are more Red shirt for them to kill after this one. This is not the way of changing people minds or helpping the country …no not by shooting at them like gun practise on life targets. I thought shooting animal was unethical, but shooting at unarmed person … it’s just too much to watch, too much it hurts, yet I can’t do anything about it. It hurts evenmore when I heard some people (some of the yellow shirt supporter) said that The Red deserved it and government did the rights things.
Personnaly, it doesn’t matter if they were Red or Yellow or whoever… no government should have a rights to shoot their own people. No, no one in the Kingdom of Thailand should get this kind of treatment.
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Here is a true link to The UN declaration on human right have a read. See you in the UN Abbisit !!
http://www.dfa.ie/uploads/documents/Political%20Division/declaration%20english%20version.pdf
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Nick,
Great pic of the monks chanting at victory monument. This is where the real story is, unfortunately, the media feels it is not so important to report on peace and love or for the facts – like, the red shirt brigade are an international corporate sponsored gang of uneducated thugs who are very much in the minority. The vast majority of Thai people you talk to – even in the fabled “northern red shirt strong hold” areas – are ashamed of the red shirts and how they are carrying on. They are not behaving as Thai culture demands. The yellow shirt protesters of a few years ago on the other hand were very much supported by most of the population. Our illustrious friend Taksin who has very strong ties to Carlyle group, monsanto, and many other murderous fascist organizations is by no means the saviour of the poor and downtrodden as the western media likes to propagandize. MOST Thai people and ALL educated Thai people (who do not work for corporations) are aware of this and view him as one of the most dangerous people alive on the planet today. When will the media report this, Nick?
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Completely agree with Ajax above (here).
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Hi Nick,
I heard everything that was happening that day from inside the house where I stayed which was right in front the camouflaged buildingwhere the military were. I successfully escaped my place today 6 am in the morning with my passport out, white shirt, backpack. I saw the monks going to Victory Monument, this made me feel extremely safe at the moment. Although, I am happy I am reading you article only now, because if I read it yesterday I would have been too scared to get out of my place…. or not……Happy you all survived. Met several photojournalists hiding in my place yesterday – you’re all amazing people – keep up the good work! And, be safe!
masha
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The Thai government continues disseminating the news regarding the protesters equipped with heavy weapons. Colonel Sansern stated that the photos regarding the murdered civilians had been doctored and altered. (The famous body that lied on the walkway near Century Hotel.)
As far as we know, we had not seen the government confiscated the heavy weapons or any machinery from the protesters. We saw the videos and pictures of the snipers on the tall buildings and soldiers carried M16.
If there are over 500 terrorists, just like the government had stated, we should have seen the heavy casualty from the military as well.
We wish the Human Rights organization can put some more pressures toward the government.
We do not know that actual death tolls after the army collected the corpses into their trucks.
We mourned with the families who had lost their loves one. May peaceful resolutions happen really soon…
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Is this partly from the same location as Nick’s experience here? There is horrible amount of gun fire, is the truck driver shot and fallen on the car horn?
Hope to hear if this is same location:
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Dear Nick
I am one of the Red Shirt Supporters. I feel hopeless here in England and not sure how to help them. I went back to Thailand last April to visit my family and had joined the protesters with my daughter. I do understand their cause as I was one of the students who fought for democracy 35 years ago. I would be deeply sad that all the efforts the students had done will be in vain!
Do keep up with your good work and show the world what Thai Priminister and his cronies are like – they are murderers! they should be brought to justice.
Kind regards
Jip
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Thank you for a story that is totally different from Thai medias. What this government has done is far worse than I have imagined. The UDD just asked for an election from a questionable, if not illegitimate, government. Don’t say that the government is totally legitimate. Back in 2008, if it was just only the coalition party who changed sides this would not be a case.
What made it ugly was after the party dissolution resulted from coup-appointed judges’ ruling, some of the former People’s Power party members spinned-off and joined the coalition government with the Democrats as a result of the military’s interference. This has disappointed the voters and it is the reason why they demands a fresh new election. I don’t think they have asked for too much.
More over, neither Abhisit has already negotiated nor the UDD has rejected the negotiation. The key of negotiation is that one gives his own proposal and the other gives another and both parties come to concensus.
What really happened is that the group already accepted Abhisit’s proposals but Abhisit scrapped the plan and suppressed them right after the group asked Suthep to report to the CSD first. But then Suthep just wanted to play a trick by reporting himself to the DSI. It might be important to note that Suthep himself is the head of DSI at the moment. What a Joke?! It is clear that Abhisit just gave the UDD one choice only and scrapped the plan right after the UDD proposed theirs. What was that? Negotiation? Abhisit did not even show his sincerity.
Moreover, we can see that Abhisit has lied so many times, e.g. the suppression of protestors at Rajdumnern when he told that it would be at Rajprasong, or even from this coverage. Only shotguns? That raised a question: what if he would not dissolve the parliament as promised? I think it is reasonable for the UDD to be prudent.
I can’t see any concrete reason why Abhisit should not give the people a fresh new election. For such situation, he should have dissolved the parliament and called for an election before things gets deep into crisis like this. Thaksin did this once for the sake of those Yellow Shirts in 2006.
Given that he got back into position after the election, and there still were protestors threatening him to dissolve the house again, he shall be able to exercise the law accordingly. The only reason I could see is that he fear he will lose again in the election just like in the past decade.
Last but not least, the coalition party should be able to stop this well before it has happened, in a very democratic way also. I just don’t catch why they still support the current government. This is just unbelievable.
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Thanks for the nice comments.
To be honest, this thing has shaken me up considerably, and i have taken off the day, doing nothing but picking up my motorcycle, which fortunately was still OK.
This article is the result of me having made a wrong call yesterday. I Thought the situation would develop like the two days before at Rama IV / Wireless intersection (where i photographed the protester who was shot in the head by the military), and the following afternoon at Wireless Road at Lumphini Police station (where Nelson Rand, the Matichon photographer and several protesters were shot – by the military as well). In both those incidents one could still work relatively safely when staying in cover. Military then shot only when protesters made moves towards them, and did not move themselves.
This one though turned out quite different – a barrage of shot carefully aimed at anything that moved (especially the group of protesters in front of me).
Unfortunately my wife had to see me on Thai television running from the soldiers shooting at me while i was still stuck in the house – one of the channels had some coverage of this, somehow.
This was a most terrifying experience. Presently i am far more scared of the soldiers than of the “Guys in Black” (yes – they are existing) who i had a brief encounter with the night before. One of them asked me politely not to take any images of him, and then walked off into no man’s land, a grenade launcher hidden under his jacket, not too long after followed by automatic rifle fire and several grenade blasts into the direction of the military. I am not condoning what they are doing, but as the situation is right now, i believe we have to begin to readjust our analyzes of the situation, and also on safety.
Ideological or political convictions aside (they don’t really matter while trying to cover this mess on the ground) – while working, we have to think about who is targeting us, and who is not likely to target us. So far, the military has not given me much reason to feel safe, especially their use of snipers on many of the high rises and bridges. But this is just my personal experience – others may feel different.
This story is also a strong warning on anyone covering this now, how quickly things may get out of hand. I have to think very hard on how, and if i keep covering this mess as working somewhat safely as a journalist is almost impossible now, which i learned the hard way.
And by the way, if anybody has or can get some information on the guy with the gut shot, if he possibly made it, and if – in which hospital he is, in that case – i would be very grateful. I am quite haunted by the terrible suffering he had to endure, and which i could not make any easier.
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welcome to Thailand
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Doughcampa: Too bad that one could show side by side the guys saying that lies on tv with the pics and videos of the same places. Amazing Thailand.
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To all who passed by this page. I would like to tell you that you are getting one-side information, and from the too-far point of view. I am Thai and has been living here in Bangkok for whole life, want to share some information to you.
About 8 – 9 years ago, at least 50% of Thai people, including scientists and spiritual/religious leaders had supported Thaksin Shinnawatra. A few years later, almost of them has changed their mind after finding his dark side. Nowadays, at least 80% of Thai people are against him who is undeniably behind the red-shirt rally. Almost of his supporters are people in rural areas, mostly less educated. We cannot deny that there is too big social gap in Thailand, as in many other countries. But the violence is not the answer for this problem.
Currently it is the red-shirt leaders who arouse their people to fight violently and is uncontrollable now. And the soldiers are trying to bring peace back to our city. M79 were really used. The rally tried to get into the hospital and acted rude to doctors and nurses. It is not just a lie.
Statistically, you can easily compare the 193-dayyellow-shirt rally without deadly weapon like M79, while this 60-day red-shirt with more than 10 M79 since the first 30 day.
Please do not judge anyone TOO SOON. Be a good listener.
Sincerely yours,
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you know nothing about Thailand .. you know nothing about thai politics and our culture really ..you don’t know why the army do like that … if you think the red shirt they fight for democracy you’re wrong really ,look back at who they fight for and what their point ..peace ,freedom or demo or Thaksin’s ex pm who was coup by the army because he committed crimes that we can prove by the court .. he corruped .. you know that I believed really ..What do you think about devil in the suit who want come back to Thailand without guilt ?? and if you know the red leader very well you will know some they are comunist too
Thai ppls don’t want Thaksin and his system that we call Thaksinomis like that ..he controled the systemp in thailand example court ..army ..police that he send ppls in his family in there
why you don’t check they have the weapon behind their camp I worked same your job too ,we understand why the army coup thaksin ‘s govt and then ..only one thing Thaksin he did good 30 baht when ppls go to the hospital that very good for help poor people .
we really feel sad for bad situlation now everyone get lost and hurt a lots ..and I hope forigner reporter will understand about thai politic culture well too ..we are not same Burma ,we have own politic that the west can’t understand
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In response to Supapong, it is rather unbeleivable that you still insist people who have seen the information on this page to believe that what is being done by the government is right. The abuse of media is present here, so as the inhumane suppression by the government. Besides, the issue is beyond Thaksin already. You’d better change your mindset.
I would like to clarify another point you made. It might be true that most of Thaksin supporters are less-educated on average. As a matter of fact, most Thais are, in general, less-educated. It is not surprising if Thaksin’s supporters, which outnumber the Democrat’s supporters, are mostly less-educated as they made up large portions of population in Thailand. Don’t fool yourself that every single intellect in Thailand hates Thaksin. You are those who don’t believe in democracy or equality of human as it can be implied from your comment, which keep stressing about the educational background of Thaksin’s supporters.
How ironic you compare the PAD to the UDD. Only two Yellow-shirts were dead because of tear gas used in the suppression by the police. Meanwhile, more than 50 Red-shirts are dead already by the military and heavy weapons. The number is still going. What do you say then statistically? Who is more cruel, Somchai or Abhisit?
By the way, if you said at least 80% of Thais are against Thaksin, please tell your beloved leader to stop shooting at civilians and commence a new election now.
Lastly, you’d better keep in mind: nobody died until Abhisit wanted to end this protest.
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This is horrible, firing a live rounds at the protesters should not be allow. I heard that 32 people is already died from the fighting. This government must be stop.
Why hasn’t the UN done anything?!
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May be the soldier should wait until these people set the gas station on fire. Please don’t tell me they might not, yes they might not but what’s at stake here if they do and they have set quite a few building afire.
Alas, I’ll be mean: a quote from uncle Samak on the dead of the yellow shirts: “I would like to ask why you would like to be at the scene. If you stay home, will you die?”
All I would like to point out is that will they be better off with that kind of PM they accused the elites of taking him out unfairly?
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Hey Guys, I’m a Thai lady living in Bangkok. As #73 and #75 may bring the misunderstanding about our culture and politics.
WE NEVER EVER ACCEPT THE KILLING LIKE THIS!.
Where is those percentage from? for the people who against Mr.Thaksin. I don’t beleive it’s 80%! or it’s form Abhisit gang of liars.
Any way, Big thanks to all foreign press who show the truth to the world. I’m at home nothing I can do. Just try to surf the blocked sites and watch Internet TV to get to know what happen cos I live far away form fighting area, Thai TV still have nothing..has only big lies form government…May be CNN, BBC will be blocked soon…
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Ignorant foreigner fools. How would you think if a huge bunch of uneducated and misled fools did the same in the business district of your capital? I guess you would just bow before their demands and let them put their expelled leader to rule your beloved country, right? In every western country such “demonstrations” against the government in charge would be cracked down at a very early stage. In every wester penal codex encouraging people to take actions against the main institutions of the country – whether they presume it’s illegal or not – or doing such actions is declared as crime against the state or act of terrorism. It’s easy to make stupid conclusions from fragmented informations given to you by such ignorant foreigners as you are when you sitting in an armchair far away from the trouble. If they just had wanted early elections they would have accepted the PM’s offer. But they just want to cause more trouble here to drive the country to the edge of anarchy so they can put their leaders into the government without election because they know their leaders DO NOT have enough support to win an election. If they just don’t like the government they should vote accordingly at the next elections instead of making others life harder. You say it’s not democratic that the army tries to end this nonsense. And what is the democratic in taking hostage a whole business district in the capital for weeks causing millions bhat of loss to the whole country? Will you pay the rent for the merchants who are going to broke because of this? Or maybe those kind and peaceful reds will do that?
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Good comments from Supapong earlier.
ColPyat is a known red supporter and his biased so-called journalism is tripe.
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When one looks at the vitriol inspired by New Mandala stories, the thought arises that the mere airing of internal problems to the outside world is enough to incense some good Thai citizens.
I wonder: Seh Daeng was assassinated while giving interviews to foreign reporters and the Red Shirt supporters who spoke to Nick Nostitz were shot moments later–is this a clear message not to dare to speak to foreigners?
To those readers who rage against New Mandala: is this really just xenophobia?
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Hey Nick
has been a few years…..while its good to hear you are doing well and are safe, I wish I were hearing your news under better circumstances.
Do take care
Jyoti
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I would like to ask for your sincere answer.
Are they protesters or real terrorists?
The situation before our PM decided to force the red terrorist to go back home.
Watch these video clips:
————
Where are these soldiers’ rights?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suTm1cDhW0k&feature=player_embedded
————
Who’s the man in black with M16 machine gun?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_xg0l6-oHY&feature=player_embedded
————
Do you know what M79 is?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hmSPbugDAA&feature=player_embedded
————
Do you think that they come to request for the democracy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbQx3DyOel4&feature=related
This is the fact that Bangkok people have to bear for more than one year with this terrorist. Do we have too low tolerant?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB85Mw-O4x8&feature=related
See what they did with our soldiers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W_gODoaXg4&feature=fvsr
See what Bangkok people think about the red terrorist.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLiHS-FrdAs&feature=related
Who did the violation?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtiLcXbPXR0&feature=related
Who shot this guy? The soldiers were in front of the red group, but he was shot by someone within the red group.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzcVcHokaVM&NR=1
This red guy saw the event above, and he said that he saw the man in black shot that guy, it’s not the soldier. He said that he also saw the man in black shot the soldier as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6p1YP3wUzI&feature=related
This man tried to do something with the oil truck. Look at his right hand. What did he want to do with the truck? Our soldier saw him and shot the gun on his foot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBGpxfQ3ZSE
What do you think?
Sincerely your,
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Correspondent their are presentation one side and distort the facts.
You all reporters without ethics.
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Everbody concerned about the situation in Thailand should organize protests at their nearest Thai consulate or embassy. This will make it into the local news cycles and increase foreign pressure on the Thais to call off the Ratchaprasong massacre.
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It doenst matter which side you are on right now.What is being damaged here is humanity.
You were near a gas station.How do you think the residents living behind there would have survived if it had been torched? Right now both sides are taking very very hardline measures and it is causing more anger,more fear and more pain.
The Thai people have lost their way and unfortunately the way you have reported this ,in your own fear based manner, adds to that.There is not any unbiased reporting going on because those ‘doing their job’ are so scared it colours the way they report it. (pun intended)
It is time for people to go home and to free Bangkok again. It is not worth dying for when in this 21st century there are very clear avenues that can be used.
Yes it takes time but if people are educated and shown how it can work and will work then society can still function.
There are many many more casualties than those who have faced the gun fire.
Many many innocent Thai people have been damaged just for living in this city and having been subject to the tactics that have been used in the last two months. How many cannot work,feed their families or live safely because of all this? A lot more than the few who are causing all the violence.
I call upon all in this our Human race, species Homo sapien, to show some compassion and humanity for all.Truth will prevail no matter what comes and many may not like what it shows.
Thank you
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This article can only be credited as a single view and interpretation of a foreign photographer whom, due to his lack of experience in hostile areas and his shallow understanding of local rhythm and expected behavior along with his limited grasp on the whole situation, was led to conclude and displayed himself and other as being fatally threatened without any rules or reasons. No attempts were made to wholly understand what he had encounter and ethically give important insights to the wider context and significance of his whereabouts and how the situation had progress at that particular time. This is not a news article and cannot be considered as professional news reporting, but rather an emotional blog of someone scared for his life.
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A little off-topic, but I don’t like the “rating system”. The comment by meander69 above doesn’t start well but besides the first sentence, this is not a low-quality comment IMO, it just disagrees with the opinion of most posters here. I know this rating system from alternet.org and found it dramatically increased “forum bias”, with certain posters getting voted down to the effect that they were discouraged to comment ever again. Just my 2 satang.
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I’m a Thai women who don’t like Taksin.
I’m very sorry that you saw.
I write and speak English weakly but I really want to tell you that
“The soldier must do that, Red-Shirt gang make many big problems for my country and this event they don’t show what they are so the government notices Dangerous Zone for safety people ,and who is still in that area….is not safe. Red-Shirt gang plays games with the government for making the government badly in man.”
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Dear Kevina,
I am sorry that I skipped to say some words from my heart. I have never ever want anyone to be killed. I am a serious bhuddist and never kill any life intentionally for decades. And I have also joined some NGOs to run campaigns for people in rural areas so I have never looked down those people. You know, I even partially agree to their idea of dissolution of parliament too. Please get these assumptions first.
For the comparison, you should dig more information about PAD and UDD. PAD stayed so long with some times of violence, and they got M79 bombed from unknown ones, while just a short time of UDD we got many times of harrassment to the normal people and more than 100 of M79 from unknown ones staying in the group. We cannot deny there are many sorts of people joined every group. The problem is that now it is uncontrollable by the leaders and that makes the situation different from the normal protest. It’s also beyond Thaksin like you said. It’s controlled by their own violent mindsets. Even the red-shirt leaders, they have got different idea for months and someone seperated or quitted already. You need to think about who is the starter of violence and how much it is, then you can compare the result of the death. Please try checking some clips for their leaders’ violence.
Although we want a peaceful way to stop it and the government have tried to share to the red-shirt leaders already, including the new election you mentioned, (which you should know if you read about this along the past months), all we got from the red-shirt are their unreliable speechs and changing ideas everyday. Even the people who support Abhisit also complain him for his childlike or clumsy and too passive action. While you feel different. Finally the red-shirt leaders did not accept any solution. When some of them STARTed firing to people and soldier first, we normal people need someone to protect us from those who has not just used the homemade stuff but also the LPG tank clinging to the public building. My friends who work around the area has been robbed for mobile phone or whatever they want. Again, those people and I do not want any violence and never feel good for any death.
The corruption in Thailand is too deep to solve in a short time. You have to be here in the area and you would see how the POLICE do to us the normal people. It’s known to the public that almost of Thai polices are standing for Thaksin because of his illegal support to polices. How would you feel when a red-shirt try to attack you while a police who just stand looking at you without any help. That is what have happenned for a few months here in Thailand.
I believe that almost of the red-shirt people has pure minds of what they want but the main problem now is that there are too many violent people in their group too. Compare to all 3 big events of political rally in my life (the other 3 are before my birth), this time the rally has the most unknown bastards who begin the violence so we need the protection from the soldiers.
“Lastly, you’d better keep in mind: nobody died until Abhisit wanted to end this protest.” Ummm… I can say just that you are quite wrong.
Lastly, if you think our government want to do the massacre, there must be much more death than this number.
We all are only observers who got not enough information to judge the situation. What I tried to share to you is another side of information. And I have never said I agree to the killing. But do NOT judge before you know it enough. Be a good listener. This is a long story.
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Would you also recommend charging at the police with rocks and molotov cocktails and then setting up huge burning pires, razing a couple of convenience stores in the process?
What’s the purpose to all this burning anyway? What are they trying to achieve by that?
Meanwhile, TNN reports that reds have agreed on ceasefire negotiations without preconditions, no UN involvement.
Nick did what he always does, it might come across as biased and one sided but he always been that way.
Question is – why did the army use live ammunition to clear the barricade? Why did they want to clear it at all?
Was it the proximity of the gas station and precedents of burning tires elsewhere? Were the soldiers afraid of armed “black” reds in the area? Were there any? Did they try rubber bullets/shots in the air before aiming at reds at the barricades?
I don’t expect Nick to provide all the answers when giving this excellent personal account.
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News of Thailand during the past few days may depict the country as being in atrocities where military officers mercilessly fired at “peaceful” protesters.
If you don’t look back long enough, you would understandably jump to that conclusion too.
But it actually takes a long, long way for Thailand to come to this point.
Let’s look just only one step back to get a clearer picture.
Ten weeks ago, the Red Shirts started the present protest in Bangkok. Despite their rhetoric boast of “peaceful protest within the law”, Thai people were faced with countless actions of law breaking, infringing upon the basic rights of others who just did not want to join them (slapping people who wouldn’t take their leaflets, for example).
On the contrary, their repeated attempts to disrupt peace and normalcy such as trying to derail the sky train, to bomb high-voltage pylons, to raid government buildings including the hospital, to fire heavy war weapons to key places including the temple of the Emerald Buddha and a lot more, were no where near the peaceful way they boasted. These acts were rightly justified as “terrorist acts” These acts were reported in nearly all local media channels. But sadly so few of them were picked up to be reported in the foreign media.
The Abhisit government has tolerated this all along. They don’t want bloodshed. They are clever enough to correctly read the game of the Red Shirts that want to lure them into impatience and turmoil. The government knows very well that they will only lose out and gain nothing from falling to that vicious Red Shirt plan. That explains why they have tolerated so much and so long and offered dialogue. That also explains why the Red Shirts refused what had been agreed through the dialogue and instead stirred more and more turmoil.
A friend who risked his life as an undercover agent in the Red Shirts protesters recently disclosed the Red Shirt’s vicious plan to kill innocent protesters and accused the military officers of that crime.
And they already did just that. The first implementation on April 10 at Kok Wuo Intersections was not quite successful in tarnishing the military. Many video files recorded by journalists caught red-handed men in black dispersedly firing heavy weapons and snipers’ shooting out at high-rank military officers with the help of a laser guide to mark the victims.
However, this vicious plan has been used again, at the time when the Thai government has to step up the containing of the situation which would inevitably incur losses. At this stage, after all other options are exhausted; any government would have to do the same.
This time the vicious plan is used to pave the way out for red Shirt ringleaders who are now faced with increasing social sanction from the majority of Thai people who have been fed up with their criminal and rebellious actions for many months. Apart from the social sanction, the Red Shirt leaders are now caught up in the deep internal rift. The recent attempted murder of a hard-core leader was said to stem from this rift and carried out by the opposite circle of the Red shirt leaders. Some leaders already fled out of the country. The rest is left in a dilemma; a high risk of being wiped off by the same side on one hand, and on the other a looming prospect of being caught by state hands. Thus they need a quick way out.
How would this work out ? The Red Shirt militants would be disguised as military officers and shoot their own innocent supporters. They hope they could lead people to believe this.
If the whole wide world could be led to believe this, the government would be forced to stop the stand off. The government would also faced serious calls for external parties to intervene. That would be very bad for Thailand as a country trying to settle its unprecedented internal problem.
For any country, external concerns, calls or offers would be appreciated if they are not biased and based on true understanding of the situation. Unfortunately,in Thailand’s unique and complicated situation, some external parties are too carried away with news that supports the well-planned lies and rhetoric of the Red Shirt. They would not even notice simple facts such as how come the victims were shot far outside the shooting range of the officers. Similarly, they couldn’t be bothered to read between the lines of those lies and rhetoric of the Red Shirts. Therefore, they could not see that what is happening is not a simple power struggle among political parties but that what the red Shirts really want is to change the Kingdom into a republic.
But the majority of Thai people could see that and they would strongly oppose to the Red Shirt’s aspiration.
And if you could also see this, you would agree that this kind of issue is never for external intervention.
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No one deserve to get shot from the different vision of politics. Moral and open mind – the way of real Thai ppl gonna be…
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Whether this is a massacre or not, it is clear that thousands of civilians were wounded. Do you want all of them to be dead, so that you can really call this a massacre?
Never mind. From now on, based on what you said, any government in Thailand, could kill up to what? 50 people may be? in order to stop any unrest thay may happen in the future. Let this go on if you think it is right.
Speaking about the UDD’s rejection of your PM’s proposals, you’d better read my other comment. It’s all about sincerity of Abhisit himself.
Paradoxically, I agree with you that we don’t have enough information to judge the situation, and we never will. How obvious the medias in Thailand have been abused. That’s the reason why you are reading Nick’s article here, but you just can’t accept the truth, just because one man in your mindset, Thaksin.
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I am sick seeing people keep claiming that most Thais are against the UDD and support this inhumane suppression. If so, just go for an election. Everything in a democratic country boils down to election.
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To TonyD and your justification for shooting civilians -
Did you support the shooting of yellow shirts?
Was the yellow shirts occupation of govt house considered OK by you?
Was the occupation OK as well?
Is the fact that one of the leaders at the airport occupation now the foreign minister instead of being in jail OK
Is the fact that a number of “red” leaders are already found guilty and in jail versus No yellow shirts “charged” or arrested OK
If all of the above are OK for you, then I “feel” for you. I am also happy for you that you can live thru live with permanent dark glasses on. I just wish I can be like that, but sadly no, I feel the outrage, when I see obvious injustice. I feel anger that I am impotent to do something about the blatant abuse of the “justice” system. I can only write some comments in a website like NM and hope that someone somewhere who can do more, act on these injustice.
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the red-shirted people who dont not respect rules should die.they r against the soldiers who try to make bkk return as normal.they r protesting in a definitely illegal action,not accepted by most of thai people.
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I’m not convinced the comments rating system is working. People are voting according to whether or not they agree with the comment, rather than its quality. Many of the anti-redshirt comments are heavily voted down and therefore ‘sentenced’ to be hidden from view – a bizarre form of self-censorship that I doubt is in accord with the original intentions of NM. I come across many comments that I rate highly, even though I may not personally agree with the view expressed. I’d like to be free to make up my own mind about a comment’s quality without having to double click through to the hidden, or ‘censored’, text.
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Dear Supapong, my Eng is not quite well, but i will try to tell you that..
During post 2000 eco crisis, I and friends’d once been fooled so crazily by PAD (yellow shirt) after we’d been solely consuming only onto his medias where 90% of columns targeted all the blames and cheating accusation on democrat party (the party that I and friends always voted for prior to 2000).
The madness and highly intense patriot feeling (against democrat) lasted for many months until we found out that ‘sonthi ’ (later yellow shirt leader) ‘s lost interests, really lied behind many accusations (and for the next government, taksin, too). We never forget that stupid feeling and also learnt lessons of how media can easily lure people just by keep manipulating information.
Anyway, I later still voted for democrat that time (lost to Taksin party then). However, for all 4-yr full term governing of Taksin, he performed so well, especially on economy and social policy executions (My job involved economic situation analysis) that I voted for him in next election.
As my job then related to economic situation, I kept witnessing the dynamic movement within each economic small sectors in each provinces during Taksin 1st term. That’s how huge domestic consumption (i’m talking about non-gdp which bigger than gdp that less people interested) really dragged the country’s fast recovery. I also believe that some of social welfare he established (caused many argument from doctors who lost the clinic customers) was really effective that it relieved severity of the chronic ‘inequalities’ of the country (if u study poverty, research on Gini indicators, just for income side, instead of poverty line). Inequality never been relieved by any government incl. old party like democrat. So the problems had long been left wide spreading from that of income to that of education, land dwelling, standard medical access, etc, and from generations to generations. At present, it became roots or underlying problems to most economic and social problems of the country. The poor (no matter now or 4 decades ago) still born and die poorly, but with more limited opportunities (esp. education). Family quality’s lower, more frequent in insolvency with a year from debt burden, higher vulnerability of drug abuses and other social problems. While those of rich generations, born with opportunities and facilities, always see and judge whole country as merely Bangkok! Teenages today mostly lack of social responsibility and doesn’t feel they related to any although we are in the same economic hook. Latest ADB analysis says that the problems is not the rich and the poor anymore, but that “the rich are getting rich FASTER than the poor!!.. Check Thailand’s inequality stat., although rare. (I still have more things to tell the space’s never enough).
I don’t need absolute zero inequalities, that’s impossible. I once really glad that the problems’s lessen in Taksin term. Old Guru and scholars who came out and severely criticized Taksin policy including democrat party are all sucked and should be get rid of. They’d been wasting the time to hold the information for so long in the past, but do nothing even lessening, if they think they smart enough.
Today, strange justices and skeptical legal enforcement after 2006 coup, including bad medias drove me far away wandering the internet for more true information. Now I became the one who never watch Thai TV and readThai/Eng (Thai-owned) newspaper for more than 3 years. Thank you for reading.
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This video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVLHnBsTl9s is from the same scene that Nick photographed.
I see elsewhere that the “it’s a fake/set-up” brigade are moving into inventive high gear e.g. (I kid you not):
“I suspect there is one black sniper following Nick Nostitz then shooting Reds Nick took a photo of, or, interviewed.”
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“The protesters moved the tires further along the road, in front of the Shell gas station near Soi Rang Naam. I positioned myself at the gas station as cover, in case the army would open fire”
Nick, excellent and insightful report overall for which I thank you for risking your life to bring to us. I should however tell you that using a gas station as cover in case anybody opens fire is not a great move. Avoid the area of the gas pumps in particular. Stay safe.
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My house is located on Rama 4 Rd., where the bombing and shooting is going on right now as I type…
I’m very surprised to see so many people are against our government even though they are just doing their job. Many people have been waiting for them to take action because it has been causing problems for all the innocent people in the area. You know they are being scolded at by a lot of people just because they don’t take a solid action in getting rid of the protestors?
— Do you know that my relative’s car was pulled over because as citizens drove pass by the Red Zone, they forced all the cars to go in to their area to create a blockage from outside?? This is taking hostages!
— Do you know that many hospitals cannot operate?? Patients cannot go into the hospital? People are dying ???
— Do you know the Red Shirt leaders have nothing to say and want the Red women, senior citizens, and children to remain in the Red Zone? Even though it is very dangerous? They wanted the government to look bad if they take a legal action… And those are what the international media is showing. It is ALWAYS the government’s fault…. but I want to speak for EVERY Thai person that I know that it’s NOT !
— Do you know our soldiers are being sent in first with NO GUNS? and they got hurted and shooted at, they are being beaten up and could not protect themselves from rocks and sharp objects? It’s probably very hard for you understand, unless one of your family members is a soldier…
— Do you know that our former PM Thaksin cheated over 100,000,000 million THB of money from our beloved nation while he was in his term? And THAT money is what he is using to hire all the farmers, and people from the rural area to come and crowd the city, disrupting the peace and flow of our city? — Do you know they are getting 500-2000 THB/day ? That is not a lot of money, but during a hot time like this, no crops are growing, you still need to feed the family, of course you would come and sit around and get paid ! He is making use of our people in the rural provinces! — With that amount of money he can hire ANYONE to stay ANYWHERE for years !
If only you understand Thai and you were here in this country to watch the live debate between the Red Shirt leaders and our government… You will know that they are not making any sense in their argument.
I have never taken sides before, but this is just UNBEARABLE!
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freejosh #104 Nice to meet you, fellow traveler in the New Land.
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hi Natasha
we did watch the reds an government negotiations online through the Internet, it sounded that the reds made sense… anyway just something for you to think about
these people want to be able to vote to choose an MP to represent them in the government
In the period after the abdication in 1932 the Thai military hijacked
and secured their rule.
Since then, the military, using the monarchy as cover and in cooperation with big business families (generally grouped as the Bangkok Elites), has been in control of Thailand with various thin layers of civilian and political leaders rising and falling at the whim of the military.
Until someone is able to control the military, lock them in their
barracks, banned from any involvement in business, politics and any
actions inside the country, attempts at democracy will fail in Thailand.
Without the military, the government, reds with Peu Thai and others will be able to act like normal political rivals and develop democratic
solutions.
The insurgency in the south of Thailand will also subside since it is
fuelled primarily by the same rule by the military (“Bangkok elites”)
that is inspiring the reds only more so because the military in the
south are exercising their violence, sadism and illegal businesses at
levels so far not permitted to them, except in treating certain groups
like refugees and “illegal migrant workers” in the rest of the country.
Fears of the PAD, and even perhaps the reds, disturbing the peace and distorting political outcomes will evaporate when no group is able to call on or be inspired by military support.
Bottling the military is an ongoing challenge for every democracy, for example witness the recent upsurgence of military power in the US, but must be achieved and sustained.
The reds are hoping that a democratically elected Prime Minister will be a hero and achieve this for Thailand?
Do you want to be ruled by the military or would you prefer a government that you can change at each election?
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Natasha, you’d better listen to various sources of information. The protest leaders have announced that anyone who want to leave may leave at their will but many protestors themselves chose to stay. You can read the news on Thairath.co.th yesterday. The protest leaders also urged the protestors to evacuate their children to a temple nearby. This is way more manly than those Yellow Shirts when Chamlong requested women to surround him.
And again, another Thaksin hater saying Thaksin spent all the cheated money to hire those who are asking for a parliament dissolution. You are showing your insulting attitude to us all by saying that the protestors are hired. I don’t think that anybody is stupid enough standing there risking their life without knowing whether they will have a chance to spend the money or not.
Also, you are telling us that every Thai people is against the Red Shirts. Hope this statement will make it easier for Abhisit to give them a new election now.
Soldiers had no real gun on April, 10? Have a look here:
http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclusive-france-24-footage-payen-show-soldiers-firing-crowd-riot-clashes-violence-demonstration-bangkok-thailand-crack
If you can’t see it, you are blind, may be mentally.
Clearly, Abhisit has lied so many times.
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Well, for your own record, The foreign journalists, Do you see this too?
Redshirt use baby as human shield. Now good protestor still?? they are insane people out there too.
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-445256?ref=feeds/people/connect/freakingcat
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I’m sorry about my English coz i’m just a student
i don’t understand
why Yellow shirt , non-color shirt and PM hate Taksin
they said Taksin Corruption,
but economic was good when he was PM
and i just want to ask ,Apishit’s system don’t corruption?
economic go down and down
theyZyellow shirt, non-color) said Red shirt doesn’t love our Father
how do you know?
WE LOVE OUR FATHER TOO
thanks
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Hi Kevina,
Our PM agreed to a new election in November, it is not that long from now on. His term is supposed to finish in 2012. The reason is very easy to understand, because you need time to prepare for the transfer, if there shall be a new government taking place.
The Red Shirts were not flexible… and they continue to cause problems (including the fact that they are about to blow up this Oil tank in front of my house now) and without reasons. When a question such as So what’s going to happen after there’s a new government in power? …Nobody could answer. Everyone wants power, no body knows what to do with it.
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For some odd reasons…. my previous post about what has been going on with our political situation…has been deleted…. Interesting.
It was very unoffensive you know… I will post it again, I know that every logical person can understand if they get to read…
[Natasha - it wasn't an original comment. It has been widely posted in numerous places. AW]
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Natasha- the needed time was just an excuse, look at how they did it in UK.
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Im in Bangkok since the beginning of troubles.
Riots are not tolerated so long in any occidental country -> see G8, OMC and so.
Government is upset after two months of impossible negociations, and did announce he will close the zone and army will shoot if people dont go.
Staying here is just suicide. Nick Nostitz seems to like to play with his life for money.
Anyway it concerns only a few streets and a few thousands of people in a city of 15’000’000 …
Why medias are spreading so much fear ?
You dont notice anything ever happened everywhere else in Bangkok,
and you are still safer here than in any big american city.
Shut off your TV, open your eyes !
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Reds are not totally wrong, but where in the world do you see democracy anyway ?
Most politicians are working for their own interest. Too much power and money corrupts everything. People always end conditionned by politicians and with almost nothing left but small or no hope.
As long all the banks in the world are not nationalized and their profits are not reinvested into the society, we are just slaves working for bankers.
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Why I can not find any soldiers in this VDO ???
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Are you watching the TV right now? Are you in Thailand? Did you see new born babies are being used as shields ? Such cowards !!!
When you said, this is all out of freewill, —- They cannot decide for themselves !
I didn’t write this, this is true :
“This is going to be a long note, but I want my overseas friends to understand what has been happening here in Thailand. You would only see the soldiers’ shooting scenes or injured people being carried away on international TV channels for 30 seconds, but never got to know about the background. The truth is, the Thai government has been too accommodating by withholding the use of force since the rally started 2 months ago (with the exception of 10th April event, when the soldiers were ordered to move in without live weapons and subsequently got slaughtered by unknown gunmen shooting from the ‘Red Shirt’ protesters).
The majority of us support the government in dealing with the terrorists hidden amongst the protesters. It held talks with the rally leaders and offered peace solutions to them 10 days ago. The Prime Minister publicly urged the protesters to disperse for fear of violence created by the terrorists. But the plan wasn’t accepted. So, it’s time to block food and water supplies entering the center of the protest. If the protesters were peaceful, they wouldn’t rush out to throw rocks, firecrackers and even bombs at the soldiers’ barricade — thus, causing the soldiers to defend themselves by firing rubber bullets and live rounds.
It has been very frustrating for the law-abiding citizen of Bangkok — we even voiced our dissatisfaction at the government for its failure to uphold the laws. The situation was like Bangkok was being held for ransom. A lot of businesses got affected because it’s right in the middle of the major commercial area.
Again, think what your government would do if there were a large group of protesters blocking all traffic at Orchard Road in Singapore; Times Square in NYC; Ginza in Tokyo; or Knightsbridge in London for two months. They set up barricades to search through personal belongings of everyone travelling through the area. Also think what it would do if those protesters invaded a nearby hospital, causing doctors & nurses to evacuate patients — some of whom are newborn babies in incubators and those in ICU — to other hospitals. And most important of all, think what it would do if the protesters were found to have large stockpile of M79 grenades, M16 & AK47 assault rifles.
Do you think your government would be as tolerant as the Thai government?
Reungvit Nandhabiwat
Business owner, Bangkok, Thailand
15 May 2010″
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@ David Brown. Your analysis of the troubles in the South is unfortunately incomplete. The most recent round of troubles there erupted after Thaksin transferred much of the responsibility for security from the army to the police. The reasons for this were mainly that he wanted to control the patronage networks and thought he could do this as well as have tighter control over security through the police. As we all know, whoever controls security in the troubled South can also control a multitude of illegal businesses including smuggling of oil and other things from Malaysia. Thaksin sent a lot of brutal police thugs to the South with orders to get quick results and they embarked on a campaign of murder, abductions and other attrocities to please the Boss. Within six months of Thaksin’s new policy the South was in flames. Notable Thaksin achievements in the South include the Tak Bai massacre, the Krue Seh Mosque massacre and the abduction and disappearance of the Muslim human rights Somjai Neelaphalijit.
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Post TVbras Lux #117
Riots are not tolerated so long in any occidental country -> see G8, OMC and so.
check out:
how western governments handle protests
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/1b6c4l
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Let me see if this is correct…
The military named zones of zero tolerance… they delineated which areas would be liable to the use of live round ammunition. They warned people not to go there…
… and people went there. And tried to blockade the street. In front of armed soldiers.
And now you are surprised?
The Thai government has shown patience and restraint dealing with this protest.
2 weeks ago, UDD had won already… they had early dissolution.. they had a fixed election date. They could have dispersed with a victory.
But they continued to ‘demand’. That they get immediate bail if arrested. That Suthep report to the police. That Suthep report to THEIR choice of police…
Patience wore out when government realised they would not disperse.
And they overplayed their hand by bargaining for petty privileges. I feel sorry for the Red Shirts… they are walking towards armed soldiers while their leaders are miles behind them…
They believe they are fighting for democracy… but for them, democracy is a byword for money… they are poor and want to be rich. UDD have promised them that by overthrowing the government their lives will be better… but it’s a lie.
Who is paying for this demonstration?
Do you think they don’t expect to get their money back?
It’s all about one group of rich Thai guys trying to wrestle money and power away from another group of rich Thai guys…
Neither group will help the poor.
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Depending on which level of the social ladder you are and if you are capable to separate your own self-indulgent well being from your fellow man, the reactions and opinions are typical and some a response of a natural feel for justice and some just the result of severe brainwashing by the Thai media and government .
The Thai look down at the ISAN people as uneducated, urban morons – well who is responsible for their situation and who has the blame that they are uneducated? As we all know a decent education in Thailand is only possible being backed up by wealthy parents. From 20.000 Baht on per month an education is possible which can compete slightly (not really) with an European education, which is for free. But knowledge is power – this is known since the middle ages in the rest of the world. So who withholds these people knowledge?
‘Never seen so much discrimination against own population as it occurs in the “Buddhist country of Thailand”, where Eurasians rule the cast of the soaps on TV (why are Thai women not pretty enough), where whitening cream is one of the most sold products (Thai which are brown are looked down as ugly – but hey you live in the Tropics what do you expect?) and a highly materialistic attitude is ruling, however based on corruption and unfair means. People are exploit to work for a salary one person can barely live on, but they have to feed a complete family. The farmers should feed the rich but get “no thanks”, however receive an arrogant attitude of superior thinking and practice.
Wonder why they rather get shot, then leaving this place? Simple question: what kind of life is this? They obviously do not want to live like this any longer, treated like the dirt on the shoes of the rich, that even think they are sooooo much better. And only cry about their disturbed peace but do not question one second, how it would be walking in the shoes of the ISAN?
It takes more then a few skyscrapers, sky-train and Gucci bags to be a part of a modern democracy that respects people in general. Censorship and brainwash tactics seem to work on a large group of Thais – however there is also a large group wakening up, questioning this government that hides behind a reasonable face and “showed so much patience” in the last weeks. Patience with what?
They make the rules and if you do not follow up on it – they shoot you. To actually grasp that you cannot live in peace, when your neighbor is suffering and doing miserable, right living next to you, is simple human behavior. You have people acting the same way out of greed or power hungry means. However look at the root and the cause of this demonstrations. There was no open ear at all for their concerns nor to improve their miserable conditions to make a better life for themselves and their children.
People in general are the wealth of a country. Repressing them has two effects: isolation of a country and poverty. Killing them will rob the country’s integrity, trustworthiness and status of reliability. The premier was weak? In my opinion taking up arms against the very own population is “REAL WEAKNESS” it shows the man has no clue nor a vision.
Short about Thakisn – he was set out of office through the military and a coup. There was no election and the people were not asked if he should be removed. His name was dragged into the dirt by random accusations – true or not – you will never know. I just see that the people were taken better care off and the wealth not solely distributed anymore into a few channels of the Elite that saw their influence perish. Thailand was never better then during the time of Thaksin – this I say as an outsider – looking in. Thailand never enjoyed more popularity and credibility abroad then to his time being in office. Thailand climbed from a third world country to a promising nation during his time. Since he his banned chaos prevails, created by power hungry elements that do not comprehend the basics of how to run a country and they abuse a population that is stuck in the traditions of a hierarchical system, a great platform to repress large groups of the population. As long as this problem is not fixed at the root – meaning equal rights to all – banning of corruption – getting rid of superior perception of a few, this country will not go forward. It’s karma – right?
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Try reading the following for a little piece of information.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fdbc3ae8-61a3-11df-aa80-00144feab49a.html
Just want to share.
=============================================
Dear Kevina,
It seems you are too exaggerative. Nobody said all the Reds are hired. I even said mostly they are not.
I do very regret for all wounded or died. Thounsand are injured, but almost of them were people who started the violence, while the rest, which is not just a little amount, are innocent. However, you cannot say the government made it intentionally.
Do you agree to me that no matter how different your opinion are to the others, and no matter you are pressured by the military force around, you still have no right to fire the others’ house and fire the RPG to the building around and once you did that you will be nearly a torrorist.
Thanks TonyD for the good brief.
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Glad you are safe Nick.
You are the best reporter in Thailand, you wrote it on your own feel and your point of view.
As my apologize, I did notice some Thai people who commented here. We should talk about Nick feeling and his life on crisis in BKK. It’s not for who is right to did or did not. Also don’t put your view on others and try to drag them to your own side. I believed that mankind can having their own will. A reasons or feels… ?
PS. You should read War and Peace (Leo Tolstoy, 1869)…once a time in your life. I believed it will open you mind. Better than the Three kingdoms myth from Chaina.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_and_Peace
Also There is the translated book in Thailand at National library.
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I’ve not much thing to say ‘coz as we all know people have bias, nevertheless how many info they got they can reject them and accept only the one they like to believe, therefore no need for me to stand my point. ( Coz me too can have bias)
One thing I believe one should seek as much info before saying anything. The whole background info that made up the story should be studied before one could make an assumption on the situation.
That leaves to each of you to manage.
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@ Mot : but this is our country, right?
can we comment what we think?
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Supapong, my comment is specifically for some other posters, not you. Please have a look at Natasha’s first post.
For what you have mentioned above, concerning violence among protestors, this must be dealt on a case-by-case basis. Not every Red-Shirt did that. In fact, we don’t even know whether it was really the Red-Shirts who did that. That means you cannot simply shoot at any protestors just because they are protestors.
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I saw TV today. No women, old or young, with children or not, refused to go back from Rajprasong even if the government offers them free transportation. They stay in Pratumvanaram temple with the Red Cross’s assistance of some medical care and food. Good for the Red Cross at last. But the Chulalongkorn hospital staff have offered nothing in kindness to the sick and the injured. Shame on them!!
The rural women at Rajprasong, they have political will and determination–much more than you think. They said they were fighting for the right thing. There are no reasons that an elected government would treat their people like the way Abhisit government are treating the rural protesters who are demanding a new election and their voice be heard. Rural men and women are demanding that they be treated with respect–not gunfires. This is beyond Thaksin but many city folks–who back up Abhisit and Democrat party simply could not believe that these rural protesters too are fighting for themselves, for a better life, for empowerment, for democracy, and not a 200-500 baht a day.
Negotiations can not go forward if you have no respect and look down upon other people regarding how they think.
By the way, Thais back up the reds more than you know!!
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English Bob, thank you for telling it what it is! i like what you say so much i’d like to repeat it here if you don’t mind.
————————
The military named zones of zero tolerance… they delineated which areas would be liable to the use of live round ammunition. They warned people not to go there…
… and people went there. And tried to blockade the street. In front of armed soldiers.
And now you are surprised?
The Thai government has shown patience and restraint dealing with this protest.
2 weeks ago, UDD had won already… they had early dissolution.. they had a fixed election date. They could have dispersed with a victory.
But they continued to ‘demand’. That they get immediate bail if arrested. That Suthep report to the police. That Suthep report to THEIR choice of police…
Patience wore out when government realised they would not disperse.
And they overplayed their hand by bargaining for petty privileges. I feel sorry for the Red Shirts… they are walking towards armed soldiers while their leaders are miles behind them…
They believe they are fighting for democracy… but for them, democracy is a byword for money… they are poor and want to be rich. UDD have promised them that by overthrowing the government their lives will be better… but it’s a lie.
Who is paying for this demonstration?
Do you think they don’t expect to get their money back?
It’s all about one group of rich Thai guys trying to wrestle money and power away from another group of rich Thai guys…
Neither group will help the poor.
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Anyone thinking the governement is doing it right should check out David Brown’s link here:
How western governments handle protests?
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/1b6c4l
Thanks a lot David!
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TonyD #85 ….. LOVE YOU !
Also thanks to Supapong #125 , English Bob #123 ….. I haven’t had time to go through all the comments but you guys really said it for the Thais and our country.
Please also read Portman #121′s great explanation about the crime that Thaksin caused…
SunnyPras’s comment #90 is also very true… please do not judge any situation from one man’s view.
It’s very strange how these well-thought-of comments are being rated down… It is VERY fishy in here
…
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thanks for your reports , Nick, so people can learned the truth from this. we hope red shirts save and win the tyrant. Good luck to you
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It is very fishy, Natasha, is it not, when the majority seems not to know what it’s voting for. Certainly, this is more evidence of a third hand manipulating both the foreigners and the Red Shirts.
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Great to see you at Rachaprasong yesterday afternoon Nick. You told me briefly what you went through but until I read your report just now I had no idea of how harrowing it was.
I remember bumping into you several times on the “frontlines” during the PAD protests in April 2009. Our paths have crossed less frequently during the current crisis because this one has been taking place over a much wider area. But whenever I do see you, I know I’m in the right place, the place where it’s happening.
I respect and admire your courage and professionalism Nick, and I also respect your right to take a couple of days off.
Bless you and your family, and look forward to seeing you again soon!
Jeremy
PS: Hope your Dad is OK.
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Was Thaksin so corrupt? Probably, but that is the status quo for politicians (not just in Thailand, either), isn’t it? You have to ask yourself though, how bad was his corruption, if he was able to pay off Thailands IMF loans 10 years AHEAD of schedule! That is unheard of, and certainly was hugely beneficial to the economy. I was not a big fan of his, and was deeply troubled by his handling of both the ‘drug war’ and southern terrorism… but give him credit where it is due! Also, and because people keep ignoring this fact: He was elected, and then RE-elected! His term was cut short by a military coup! To all these people who complain that northerners, and north-easterners keep voting for ‘bad’ people… I just wish that you would come out and clearly say that you oppose democracy! You refuse to accept that certain people have their own interests, thoughts, and motivations, and so you seek to deny them self-determination. I think what you are looking for is called ‘fascism’, so you might want to remove the word ‘democracy’ from your vocabulary, since you have no right to use it.
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Mikeize #142
You and many of Thais are set by some financial trick. You can read about the fact about the IMF loans from many many of Financial Experts in Thailand who have even been his supporters.
What I gave him real credits are many projects he is the igniter of, such as, the project to encourage poor farmers to do annual budgeting and daily accounting to finally find that they spend too much money for alcohol and too less for their children, or public health service for very low cost. Although almost of the projects must be beneficial to him, they are really useful for the people also.
To Nick, from your information and photos, I have to say I did not see your bias so much and I do not think you are standing on which side anyway. Hope you are safe here in Thailand.
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And
To kevina #130
“For what you have mentioned above, concerning violence among protestors, this must be dealt on a case-by-case basis. Not every Red-Shirt did that. In fact, we don’t even know whether it was really the Red-Shirts who did that. That means you cannot simply shoot at any protestors just because they are protestors.”
For the case-by-case basis, it’s really correct, and so VICE-VERSA. That’s why I never blame all the red-shirts and also all the soldiers. And the soldier never shoot at ANY protestors like you ALWAYS said in this post just like you are around the area yourselves. The soldier use case-by-case reaction too, otherwise the situation will not grow like this.
Or you really think if the soldiers do like what you said, compare their number, their weapons, how possible our city would become like the present?
But for which side the violent people or the black-shirt are, you do not know but we know. And we are here in Thailand long enough to know which target they want beyond democracy. If you have ever seen some photos from inside the red-shirts’ area, they even have caps of Communists and use the word ‘Comrade’ to talk together. For innocent red-shirts, democracy is a nice word almost of them understand a little. For the leaders, democracy is a nice word to lure them. What they want is beyond the democracy.
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To thai people #102
No one should die. I have never agreed to the sentence to death. Everyone should have chance to resolve their mistake and change their mind no matter how long.
Just if the sudden life-threaten action they might make, and at the time whoever face it cannot solve the problem with any other way, they might need to choose between the death of which one to help the other one’s life.
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Dear Kevina,
From the information you linked, I agree to you that LAPD has a better and smarter way to deal with YOUR people than ours with OUR people in Thailand.
What I am against you is that about the intention of our government to kill people. And against you on some of your wrong information which you already judged it true.
Have you seen my point yet?
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I don’t think it’s appropriate to compare LA riots to the current situation. Last year Thai army dispersed the mob without killing anyone and reds didn’t fight back.
This year red response was clearly different, from April 10 attack on army building that started the day to night time grenade attacks that sparked the shootings to last Friday.
Did the rioters in LA openly fought with the National Guard, not giving up an inch of the territory?
Did Americans have to deal with hidden armed men, snipers, M79s etc?
Why not compare it to Fallujah instead? Why not compare it American rules of engagement when they come under fire?
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Ok..I’ll suicide with my post…
Sorry to everyone.. Just images
Might be I looked bias. It’s clear with these pictures.
http://www.saedang.freeforums.org/topic-t2186.html
*** I’ll be in bush for a month, Wildlife is so beautiful. ***
A good news In Thailand we can give birth of many “Sarus Crane” birds successfully. Also we can find place that have rich of foods and safety place for them in wildlife. No more cages anymore.
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To Editor
We are thai people that interesting in Politic for more than 5 years and watch the bad guy Thaksin that urge the red shirt group to render the government Abhisit. With its own personal reason to come back again in Thailand and earn much money and power and last of all ,he expect to be a president of Thailand and make our king be as symbol . You can see today news about Bangkok as The Center World plaza and also The Siam square and many Banks in Bangkok be burnt simultaneously. Pl. be honestly report your news not just do it as funny things.
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There are thousands of wounded people. Many of them are innocents, including medics and journalists. Are you sure that it is a reasonable result from selective firing?
Besides, you have already read this article, haven’t you? Is that what you actually call a case-by-case action?
Anyway, the point is that your government USED TO have a better way to deal with this, as I said in my previous posts. It’s the SINCERE promise for parliament dissolution. It is just unbelievable that your leader has decided to sacrifice so many lives for political stability, aka his own power.
It seems to me that all you are trying to say is “It’s not that bad,” but, as a matter of fact, this is bad enough by Western standard.
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THAI PROTESTERS
..
http://tnews.teenee.com/politic/50814.html
..
are they innocent unarmed
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Sawasdee Supapong,
A person like you makes this bad situation worst! Your people and our people are in fact all Thai who seem not to try to understand one other’s stand point. The mentality of your kind would only divide the sick country even more let alone stabilise the unrest.
All of us here are well aware of Thanksin’s corruptions and his seemingly support for the redshirts . However, few of us are still not attentive to the historical cause of the crisis, the structural reasons that gave birth of the present chaos, and the mis conduct of the recent government. You are certainly on of the few.
Also, in year 2010, being afraid of communism is a bit..umm.. out of date! what we concern are equalities in politics and economics and DEMOCRACY. So don’t bother yourself by being irritated by the communist vocabularies. It is just a way to create a rapport in the hard time. We are no longer in the cold war but the civil war.
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Yasin, you are missing the whole point. These photos are touching, but it does not refute the fact that many innocent people were wounded and killed by your government. Are you trying to say that every protestor deserves heavy punishment by the way?
May I also suggest you that your mindset is making it more arduous for your own country to become unite together again.
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wow I ‘m not surprised if Thailand going be like a war!
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The Red shirt movement + Amart crackdown have just opened Pandora’s box.
Just wait and see.
My condolence to all the dead people and there family’s
RIP Seh Deang. At-least you will be remembered by me and many others.
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“..government USED TO have a better way to deal with this..”
From last year dispersal the protesters have learned that the army wouldn’t really shoot, they were not afraid to engage soldiers anymore.
To supplement this, their leaders told them time and time again that they will be victorious the moment soldiers open live fire – another reason to defy the army.
This is where Abhisit’s “international standards” strategy really failed – it failed to project the image of an overwhelming, irresistible force that would not budge no matter what resistance you put up or how many sacrifices you make.
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Stang, from your statement, the protestors themselves have shown their strong commitment by sacrificing their own lives for the core of demacratic process which is called “election.” What have the Thai government shown by the way? A commitment to sacrifice its people’s lives as necessary, including those innocents, to delay the election?
Do you see any difference between the two?
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I guess in the minds of Supapong and StanG, Burma is a stable country.
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kevina :
at first, all the time the protester said they don’t have any GUNS, GRENADE LUANCHER, BOMB or DO NO HARM
KEVINA
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kevina :
at first, all the time the protester said they don’t have any GUNS, GRENADE LUANCHER, BOMB or DO NO HARM
KEVINA have you ever seen any photo or vdo that take on April 1oth, 2010
my friend run guest houst on that area
she, her boy friend and some of foreigner traveller took a lot of pics and vdo from that dam day
in tme scene I SAW THAI MILITARY COUPS was BOMBED and SHOT by protesters
but all the time they (the protester) said, they don’t have any weapons
‘Why do they lie for?’
for making person like you, who do not live on this country thik GOV killing innocent people. RIGHT !!!
last one,
YES, from now my country never be the same.
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Another video of the above, but from a different angle
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=124158234276622
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Update! The peaceful, unarmed, innocent protesters are now burning all the important places in BKK. I live here in BKK and I don’t agree with the government killing its people but you all have to know that Red shirt people are not they way you think they are. They are not innocent, unarmed, harmless, peaceful whatsoever. (excuse my english)
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@165
How do you know who burns all the places? It is not all what it looks like. Is also dangerous to think so because it creates hate between the people. Don’t you forget 1976 where all the students where branded Communistst and therefor killed by the civilan group called Red Gaugr? I was there an saw how the public was looking on. Many believed they where not Thais but Vietcong. And this was a manipulatet action then. I also live in Bkk. and as we all know, there is allways money involved. Some of the places don’t make any sense – why they should burn. So please keep your temper and be more suspicious. Don’t worry they all will be reconstructed soon – of course bigger and more up to date.
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sorry I gave the wrong nr. it should comment to @166 Siriorn
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Kevina,
Thailand has regular elections, there were four elections in the past ten years and next year there will be another one.
You don’t burn the city to move elections by a few months and you don’t fight the army to negotiate election dates either.
God knows what their real goal was. People were told one thing, leaders had different ideas, and puppet masters in the background had their own agendas.
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Stang, so you don’t think an election can end the conflict and violence, do you?
If so, is there any other solution you would like to suggest besides suppressing the demonstration with bullets, or saying “Dissolve and Go Away!” to the protestors?
Election is not a bad thing. Actually, it is just opposite. Simply put, more often the government is elected, more creditability it has.
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The disapproval ratings on the comments above, such as “Many of them are not peaceful protesters” – which rightly draw attention to the larger picture – are reflective of the sad disillusionment that emotive stories such as Nick’s inculcate into foreigners’ awareness of this problem. Nick’s story is a micro-story that attempts to portray the Thai military as demons and the Reds as the victims in this terrible series of events. This is helped by its rawness, its emotive content – the fear, the blood, the horror – but emotions are precisely what need cooling if we are to understand the larger situation. The Reds have weapons, whether your guys had just slings or not, and were prepared to use them in public places such as Sala Daeng BTS station. Yes, water cannons might have been used, but let’s not forget that if the Reds had accepted the already generous government offer of early elections in November, you would not have been fired at in the way you were. In any case, you were in the midst of a warzone. What did you expect in all honesty?
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Yasin is correct and Kevina wrong. Its simple. The Reds have a terrorist element uninterested in elections and were proven to have weapons – guns, grenades etc. As StanG said, you don’t use violence and terrorism to advance elections a few months earlier than conceded. And you don’t burn down private property, banks, department stores and TV stations when you don’t get your election those few months earlier then hoped for. This is mob rule, not democracy. Sadly, there are plenty of foreigners with partners from the north of Thailand, places like Isan, who have a bias towards the Reds and this will naturally show in their commentary, journalism or cafe conversations.
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Hi Nick,
Just read your report regarding being under fire at Soi Rangnam. Once again a stellar report you had my heart pounding mate, it was almost like being there.
You are certainly in my opinion heads and shoulders above rest and your poor wife she must have been pulling your her hair out.
Keep up the great work and by the way I hope you’re wearing a bullet proof vest during your missions.
Take care,
Brendan.
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This website is a very interesting site to reed when you see all the different coments that people have aboat the situation in Bangkok and Thailand! Its not easy to tell who is the “bad people” or “good people” when you see all the videos or photos that have been shown on the net or in the tv-news lately…can anybody tell me who shot the first shot? Could this happen in the USA…or in Russia..or in any other country? What would the goverment do if you had a similar situation in China or Burma? I know there is a lots of foreigners living in Thailand and i would like to know if they want Mr.Thaksin back to rule in this country? Have anybody noticed that his is convickted by the highest court in Thailand..does it mean anything to you..or? Can anybody tell me who you can you trust in Thailand…”redshirts,yellow,black or pink”? What about the police and the army? Anyway killings or murder is a crime wherever it happens and it should never have been taken to this level in Thailand..but im afraid that this is just the begining of a new violant period in the land of the smile!
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Dear Nick,
I’ve just read your report becuase of I’m be the one in this situation I try to find out where is this situation report or clip I’m try to search from Google and found your report.
I’m the fat man wear black shirt and helmet who carry Thai flag when we walk inside to made baricade after first shot fire i’m beside you behind the gas station wall try to find rope or any method to help the big man who had shot on stomuch you can remember this right? after bomb came to corner of gas station and had someone yale that soldier march to us, i mus to climb the gas station wall to be in civil house beside of gas station. After we try to find out the way to go across the house owner of the house try to help us bring ladder and told us this wall can pass the “Complete Condominium” the man who had shot on his arm run to me and ask to go before cuase he faint and can not breath after everybody go pass the wall I’m be the last man who climb past this wall and after jump from that wall my leg is too much hurt I’m not sure that broke or not (cuase i’m so fat and a lot of weight) try to keep walking but almost can’t . I’m so lucky that had one woman who live in Complete condominium ask me and help me by open the door and let’s me keep inside on the mailbox area she help me bring pill and water for me. about 5 minute that I’m be in that situation my ankle is so hurt I’m not sure broke or not she try to help me be said to me ” Please do not go anywhere if everything calm i’ll bring you go outside please do not go outside now cuase you can’t be inside again” (Would like to say a lot of Thank you to her) after I take pill she walk outside and ran back to me and said soldier come go upstair!! She bring me to go on and let me wait there I must to leave my red sign every red sign down in the trash cuase this is so dangerous with me and who help me.
In that 2 hour after i’m be there I heard a lot of troop down on the ground for and yale “Where is the injured people told me where is the injured people” but I’m not sure who they yale to. Sound of bomb and gun fire more than you thing , I heard ambulane siren try to come inside but had a lot of gun fire that made ambulance must to go back.
I be there about 2 hour after be in silence everything stop I came down and try to find some slipper (mine leave in the gas station) I walk infront of entrance of this condominium found 2 slipper 1 had a lot of blood cover that slipper and onother 1 more clean than that (now i kept this slipper and do not wash blood still be on that slipper) after that i think i will walk trought and can pass to sam learm din dang cuase i’ve park my motorcycle there. When i try to look around that place i put my head out of the wall and look around I saw 5 soldier around there and when they saw me they yale something and shoot to my place again (I just to know what happen from video that the man that got shot on his leg and some of protestor came in that place that I’m be there) after the shot came to the wall i ran back to condominium again (still hurt but i think adrenalene rush that bring me not hurt anymore) had another woman that walk trought that place ran to be with me she said “What the fuc..ing soldier what they shot too much” (She don’t know that they try to shoot me) I ran to the park inside of this condominium there are one man i think he live in this condominium told me that this park had the wall that not too high I go there and climb pass in the next soi from that street. That’s the story that i’ve got by myself and want to say a big thank you to all of the mercy people that help me and another protestor to be alive.
Thank you very much Nick to kept the picture from this situation and show this to all of people in the world.
Nobody in Thailand that you can trust just only you that the first person who analyse from every picture and news from this situation.
PS> May have someone that ask me why you must to go there and hurt yourself. Answer of this Question is If you have anyone who care and love inside the protestor area and every way you would like to connect with them are cut down or block only this thing you can be inside and found them right? and another answer is I belived in my experience that this government try to close eye and say every thing not same of the truth that’s why we try to fight with them with no weapon. Honestly If i have any weapon like M16 , Travor , M79 I will shot them back absolutely sure but only weapon I have in that time only “Slingshot”.
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Dear Khun Chanchai,
I always wondered what happened to you guys who have climbed straight out over the back wall of the house, and what happened to the two injured. While in the house in these hours we have discussed your fate a lot. I am so glad that you at least are alive and well. I am still trying to find out what happened to the fat man with the shot in the stomach, is he dead or alive? This is a question that haunts me.
Thank you.
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Arild Lilleby
This is not about Thaksin and the puppet master, I’m amazed that the Thai comments show no awareness or any insight into their own social and political structure.
It’s so easy to put some trained military snipers in black or red shirts and let them play the role of the bad guys. But it’s also easy to find a scapegoat that is shopping in Paris – just use all there is, to not have to face the fact that there is a a much larger Thai population group whose lunch are no Sushi at Fuji, Secret Recipe cakes, Starbucks coffee and that they are discriminated to a degree that it’s simply shocking.
To actually be able to see that there is extreme injustice, double standards and hypocrisy you first should realize that the hierarchical social structure, educational system and cultural background grants the leaders the right to abuse and fill their own pockets, since democracy was introduced to Thailand.
Election is not rightful when the law must be manipulated first to get the winning party out of the way. So not to anybody’s standards that has a background in political science or a clear thinking mind, the current situation does match the rules handled to declare the government which is ruling in Thailand at the moment as a by the people elected government. It was pushed down the people’s throat. So plainly said: “Here goes your democracy into the bin turning out to be nothing but a show”.
Surprisingly nobody seems to care or even know much about this fact – funny enough the rural (uneducated) people were prepared to pin-point this to the (educated) Bangkok people, in the end they paid with their lives – taken by the mysterious snipers that were filmed by journalists, and caught on the memory cards of cameras but still are not identified to a satisfying degree by those that are responsible for the security of their citizens.
A government that practices censorship, bans blogs, closes down TV stations and has the complete media that is then available to the population in its own pocket – should make you suspicious as info is tailor made to present them best.
An extreme example:
Hitler in Germany had the complete court under his say – even the church was under his thumb. Which is bizarre if you consider the criminal acts this man has committed – being responsible for the death of millions of people, supported fanatically by brain-washed citizens that really and actually believed they were more special, better and superior to the rest of mankind.
It’s so easy to brainwash people just indoctrinate them with the concept of an enemy and make them feel better (we the peaceful, educated and good deserve to be privileged ), they actually dance then to any tune. This concept has worked then, still works today – all over this globe. Dividing countries, cities and even neighborhoods.
So far nothing is real – as reality is relative and differs from person to person and depends very much on which side you stand or what you believe in.
Fact is that the election were offered – but also here the rural knew the situation better then the Bangkok citizen. Utterly unaware that the offered date also included that Thailand would have been again under the influence and say of some military, that would in fact have had then too much power.
In democracy military has no say in political matters – we all know that this is different in Thailand. If you do not know this – there is massive info available online.
As long as nobody takes responsibility and improves in Thailand that equal rights are established, good education is available for ALL people, corruption is eliminated and discrimination stops that is daily practice from a minority against the majority of Thai citizens, the possibility of an uprising persists.
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Rebecca – 178
Good point, I want to add on your point about comparing with Germany.
It might sound a bit naive, but I think he yellow ideology (or the middle class Thai for that matter) is much more similar to Fascism is many aspect, so I will just compare this in a bit simplify way.
The race superiority that the Nazi had push which involved the idea of the pure and noble Aryan blood, the descender of the Tunic Knight and so on. While in Thailand, we have the smart-elite, the educated, and the noble tradition. I think its save to say that if we compare Germany to Thailand it is this term of race superiority to class superiority. Moreover, the Nazi had exert their influenced over the media, the justice system, and the military much the same way the Bangkok establishment did. I think the middle class Bangkok is living in the illusion they created themselves, and I afraid that one day when they woke up from their delusion, it will be too late for the country….
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Once gain, here is a demonstration of Godwin’s Law: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.” Many thanks to Rebecca #178 for providing proof.
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Chanchai, thanks for your comment!
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Isn’t there an unwritten rule that any debate is automatically declared as dead as the proverbial dodo as soon as someone drags ‘Hitler’ or ‘Nazi’ into the fray ?
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Rebecca, your comments smack of the patronising falang that thinks she knows better than most Thais about their own complex political and social “structures”, whilst genuinely “caring” for them in their ignorance and naivety. How very generous of you. Yet you offer nothing but unsubstantiated and cliched gripes about injustice for the poor (which in any case does not explain or justify why Red Shirts were lobbing grenades into public places like Sala Daeng BTS or using women and children as human shields); snears about the black shirted snipers (suggesting the government is either collaborating with them or can’t rein them in); and further unsubstantiated, unargued claims that the offered election date in November somehow involved a rigging of military power, again also against the poor. You sound like a neo-socialist, Che-loving old hippy with a chip on her shoulder. The black shirts are an elite corp within the Red Shirt movement and were firing on innocent civilians, and I’ve heard this in Bangkok from numerous sources in the last week – from Thais and foreigners – who witnessed such shooting. The use of Red Shirt violence is not justified by the plight of the poor; although many may feel disenfranchised there are non-violent ways to improve one’s lot in Thailand and across the entire developing world. Violence and holding a government and city to ransom by sheer mob politics, not to mention the billions of bath lost by fellow Thais in Bangkok and elsewhere, including many economic migrants from the “poor” north, is not the way to campaign for “democracy.” The election date proposed does indeed fall just after a re-shuffle of generals and this would not mean disenfranchising the poor but it does mean Thaksin will be even more unlikely to recoup his lost billion-odd dollar losses recently confiscated. This is why he wanted to get back in by September. If you cannot see how Thaksin’s puppeteering has anything to do with this then you are simply wrong. Please don’t patronise the Thai people or pity them.
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@Nick and the owners of this blog:
Has there been after Khun Chanchai wrote here any exhange of email addresses for Nick to follow up maybe with him to confirm his authenticity etc? Nick is fluent in Thai I understand, and would be maybe something to follow up here, if the entry by Khun Chanchai is for real and if is, then follow more about things with him? Maybe more interviews etc. with the occupants of that house and so worth.
Just an idea.
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Dear Lee,
Patronizing is the term a government would use to dismiss an argument that sounds in nobodies ears pretty. Complexity should be simplified if the own people do not understand it anymore – there is nothing complex about corruption and censorship, its state power that is used for suppression.
I did not use the Nazis as a comparison but as an example in how far a situation can be distorted and starts to live an own life with full support of the population.
This is only possible because the concept of an enemy is created that suggest that this enemy is unrighteous and preying on the rest of the population (just as the Jews in Nazi Germany who had a big part in building the country but were gassed in the end).
Initiation to reach the goal of exclusion, takes place by a complete projection of the own means onto this group of the population, trying hard to discredit them and manipulating the truth, like in a Hollywood film about CIA conspiracy.
As you yourself did make the link to Nazi Germany – and started again your propaganda machine and even tried hard to discredit my post by labeling it as “hippy talk” and “farang, who knows nothing about Thailand cliché ” and you seized all possibilities to dismiss my point of view as nonsense – tells more about you, as a person then most likely you wanted to reveal about yourself.
People like you make sure and seem to make it to their life purpose to separate instead of unite, to exclude rather then to integrate.
I feel really sorry for you – going through life with a tunnel view must not be very pleasant but I am sure that you silently hope that you have an own personal advantage in the end. Just wonder what that might be?
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Lee #183 – “The black shirts are an elite corp within the Red Shirt movement and were firing on innocent civilians, and I’ve heard this in Bangkok from numerous sources in the last week – from Thais and foreigners – who witnessed such shooting” Hmm, well it MUST be true, then.
I’ve heard a whole lot of other stories about the blackshirt snipers, BTW, as well as yours, and from Thais as well as farang who were witnesses… Like the one about them being Cambodian military crack shots, hired by Newin, or the government, or Thaksin. And other stories, all from ‘reliable sources’. Interesting, but…
The fact is we just don’t know.
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Lee #183: Furthermore, you said, ” economic migrants from the “poor” north,” indeed! Well, all I can say is” Please don’t patronise the Thai people”. (Now, where have I seen that?)
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StanG # 169 Re :
‘..government USED TO have a better way to deal with this..”
From last year dispersal the protesters have learned that the army wouldn’t really shoot, they were not afraid to engage soldiers anymore.
To supplement this, their leaders told them time and time again that they will be victorious the moment soldiers open live fire – another reason to defy the army.
This is where Abhisit’s “international standards” strategy really failed – it failed to project the image of an overwhelming, irresistible force that would not budge no matter what resistance you put up or how many sacrifices you make.”
You may well be providing a valuable corrective here – but what are your comments re. the undoubted FACT Thailand’s military is now extremely divided ? Perhaps more divided than ever before.
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Rebecca (185) – thanks for your pity but there is no need. “Patronising” is not a term that I am aware the government has used to “discredit” anyone’s argument against them. Grateful to be proven wrong there; if you have a source then fine. But the overriding point is not my view of your perspective – patronising, I hold by that – but the flaws in your so-called argument. You claim – and let’s just regard the claim – that the government has fabricated an enemy. This flies against all the facts – including attacks using grenades in public places prior to any single shot fired by a government soldier in this recent “protest”. Just between March 14 and April 23, more than 30 grenade attacks were launched in the Thai capital, mostly at night. This is your “peaceful” Red Shirt movement. Again, the offer of early elections in November was rejected by a mob holding the city’s business district to ransom. This was not indicative of a movement genuinely interested in democracy. Some were no doubt disappointed within the Reds for this decision by their leaders but the leadership were certainly holding out for even earlier elections not because an earlier date would somehow be more principled but because it would have allowed Thaksin – who you, contra any serious analyst, naively deny any significant role in this conflict – to have some influence over the military reshuffle in September and stand a better chance of winning back his stolen fortunes.
Michael (185) – the evidence, anecdotal as it may be, points to that conclusion. Major General Khattiya Sawatdiphol himself admitted to the existence of the black shirt “Ronin warriors”, “protectors” of the Red Shirts. But believe what you like. As for my alleged patronising of the poor in the North, the reference in quotations was not to doubt that the people in the north of Thailand are poor – they are – but the characterisation of the Reds’ cause as “the poor”, when we ought to know that their plight is not the driving factor but the force behind it. A difference here. To say that their cause is being hijacked is not to patronise them, it is to observe the reality, that there are other, cynical powers with more influence pulling the strings here.
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Thank you for all comments about me.
Mr. V . I can help you for this term if Nick want to know something I can give you interview about this but I’m just be the one who attend in this situation, honestly some of the truth I can’t know something inside for the fact but I really know just only what i’m doing for this. I do not thing concern about Taksin cuase I don’t like him to disturb to our monarchy (the story from PAD) but I like him on be the government cuase they can manage a lot of thing that made Thai to be developt.
I realize one thing that the ruin in Bangkok like burnt Mall burnt building this is not the thing that can be support or accept.
After we past this situation I want just only the justice and responsibility for who’ve got killed. And want everybody in Thailand care about who have died more than the building that had burnt.
Building can be rebuild but life can not be made again who can be respons for this situation.
PS> I want to say that everybody in Thailand think about Black shirt or Sniper who kill red shirt people I wan to say that only Soldier sniper that can be cuaght by Camera, that’s Right? If Red Shirt have this Black shirt or a lot of Weapon and Ammo in this mob, Why do they use when Military storm to they protest area? and Why Sniper that be on Red shirt site don’t shoot to soldier?? Please give me an idea for this.
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Lee #189 – I don’t deny that Kattiya said that. However, my point is that it is highly likely, based on many reports, as well as photos of black-dressed snipers with conventionally-dressed soldiers, that there was more than one group of blackshirts.
Because of “the reality, that there are other, cynical powers with more influence pulling the strings here”, on all sides, and we don’t know who they are, or what strings they are pulling, I’m keeping my options open for the time being. The only thing that is clear is that this whole thing, not only the men in black, is much more complicated than it seems on the surface.
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Rebecca,
you say: “there is nothing complex about corruption and censorship, its state power that is used for suppression.” – the red shirts’ stalwart leader for ‘democracy’ – their ‘donor’ – is Thaksin.
Let’s consider for a moment your point on government ‘censorship.’
1. When Thaksin was in power, he embarked on the most aggressive media control strategy.
After a series of critical reports on the Thaksin government by the Hong Kong-based Far Eastern Economic Review (FEER) – 2003 – “Thailand Inc”, ‘Thaksin Inc’ hammered back.
The January 10th issue of the magazine was deemed by Thai Special Branch police to be a “threat to national security” and the magazine was banned!! if you recall.
After another critical report on the Thai government’s handling of the economy on February 7th, the Special Branch were ordered by the PM’s office to blacklist FEER’s two Bangkok-based reporters and threaten them with deportation!! State security agencies had been used in this way by a Thai government since the dark days of rule by different military juntas!!.
Thaksin Shinawatra, the telecommunications tycoon, believed Thailand should be run in the same way he ran his Shinawatra Corporation boardroom – the boss gives the orders and his minions simply obey. In his vision of the new Thailand, there was/is little room for dissent and opposition.
I would like to ask you if he had been Abhisit, and the red shirts had been on the streets opposing him, I wonder how the situation would have played out!!??
In March 2006, came further evidence that Mr Thaksin’s drive to tame the media was turning the clock back to a previous era of dictatorship, when the government pressured the 24 hour cable news channel UBC8 to drop an independent news service provide by the Nation media group.
Thaksin’s rule, as leader of Thai Rak Thai (Thai Love Thai party) had most media either intimidated or won over with government largesse. Thaksin’s conflict of interests and control over the media – his corporation owned the iTV channel – was comparable to…you said it Rebecca – nazi Germany.
Concerning The Nation news service: once again Thaksin warned the media to be “constructive” in its reports. At the same time Special Branch censors were soon at it again with a threat to seize all copies of the March 2nd (2003) issue of The Economist with its ‘special survey on Thailand’ – if it was distributed.
Thai police spokesman Major General Pongsapat Pongcharoen went further and insisted that the Thai authorities would demand that the London-based weekly remove its “Survey on Thailand” from the Web – in a manner that reeked of Singapore-style media control and internet censorship! The Economist didn’t comply.
When it appeared that Thaksin’s popularity was also on the wane, according to a opinion poll, shortly after the poll was released Assumption University’s Abac Poll team received a series of visits from high-ranking military officers and Special Branch police.
Anger over the anti-independent media campaign was fuelled days later by the revelation that AMLO- the Anti-Money Laundering Organisation – had secretly ordered commercial banks to release confidential details of the assets and transactions of certain Thai journalists, & NGO leaders of rural poor organizations!! They all had one thing in common – they were all vocal critics of the Thaksin government.
Point 2. Corruption.
i) Thaksin’s war on drugs.
This was a brutal killing spree that led to the extrajudicial killings of about 2,500 people while thousands more were arrested.
Police were told to treat persons suspected of drugs charges as security threats and deal with ‘ruthlessly’.
More than 2,000 people were slain in the first three months of the campaign.
People began disappearing while others went into hiding. Innocent people were killed by mistake, such a nine-year-old boy and a pregnant woman who died within one month of the campaign beginning (2003)
Thaksin said the police were acting in self defense; in all cases, corpses were always found to be holding ‘guns’ – the set up & messing with forensic evidence was absurdly and macabrely obvious – the police also said the deaths were simply the result of gang warfare.
A total of 2,656 people were killed during Thaksin’s “war on drugs”, according to his own government. More than 52,000 arrests were made and 3.7 billion baht (about £50m) in assets seized!
“We are now in a position to declare that drugs… can no longer hurt us,” Thaksin proudly announced in 2004. “Many Thai people now have their sons and daughters back.”
Democratic and a representative of the poor indeed!!!!
Now let’s look at his fortune>hmmmm
ii) I’ll just say that the graft allegations against him were 124 pages long. The associated evidence required 180 boxes and needed to be transported to the court in one large lorry (filled)!!
We can all do the research for the facts and figures…..
So Rebecca, you are indeed correct about one thing – ‘there is nothing complex about corruption and censorship, its state power that is used for suppression’
Let’s hope he doesn’t return!!
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In short, and like Lee says, it’s even more of a tragedy when you realise that this is not a populist/democratic political movement – the urban/rural/rich/poor debate is something separate and indeed needs addressing. If something ‘good’ ever comes out of this conflcit, let’s hope it’s that.
The red shirts are pawns in Thaksin’s larger political game, in his ‘strategy for business’ & his driving need to return to power & regain his wealth.
This is why it’s even more disturbing/distressing to see people die and to see Bangkok looted and burnt for his insatiable personal ambitions.
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Michael #186.
Are you denying the red shirts had an armed militia?
You say: “The fact is we just don’t know.”
The fact is, yes we do know!
If there’s one ‘farang’ who would know, that would be Nick Nostitz. In his own words:
“This was a most terrifying experience. Presently i am far more scared
of the soldiers than of the “Guys in Black” (yes – they are existing)
who i had a brief encounter with the night before. One of them asked me
politely not to take any images of him, and then walked off into no
man’s land, a grenade launcher hidden under his jacket, not too long
after followed by automatic rifle fire and several grenade blasts into
the direction of the military.”
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Rebecca # 178.
“This is not about Thaksin and the puppet master” – could you kindly enlighten us as to what ‘this’ really is about then?
How can a movement that supports Thaksin be ‘democratic’ and ‘populist’?
“It’s so easy to put some trained military snipers in black or red shirts and let them play the role of the bad guys.” – Are you suggesting they were government ‘agents’ planted into the red shirt movement to discredit it? Almost as absurd as the conspiracy theory that says the 9/11 attacks were created by the Bush regime.
“a much larger Thai population group whose lunch are no Sushi at Fuji, Secret Recipe cakes, Starbucks coffee and that they are discriminated to a degree that it’s simply shocking” – are you suggesting economic growth in Thailand is a negative thing? Are you even suggesting that there are no Mcdonald’s, Fuji restaurants, Starbucks cafes in the north and north east of Thailand. Absolute pap!!
And what is your sneering disdain for the Thai middle class anyway? Furthermore, your attitude reeks of post-colinail disdain – one that says, ‘Thais in fact don’t deserve Fuji resaurants, or Starbucks, or secret recipe cakes – they should all be the ‘happy harmonious Buddhsits’ with no need of a material reality. How naïve!!
“To actually be able to see that there is extreme injustice, double standards and hypocrisy you first should realize that the hierarchical social structure, educational system and cultural background grants the leaders the right to abuse and fill their own pockets, since democracy was introduced to Thailand.” – As you are evidently pro-red, you are also pro-Thaksin, whether you like this fact or not.
And the Thaksin model fits in with ‘extreme injustice, double standards and hypocrisy’ you describe.
From ‘A New Mandala’ itself (the blog we are on):
“Election is not rightful when the law must be manipulated first to get the winning party out of the way.” From this very site itself: There is much talk of vote buying in relation to Thailand’s political crisis. Hard evidence is hard to come by but dark rumours persist of electoral handouts in return for votes. Well, New Mandala has some firm evidence due to the eagle eye of Nich Farrelly. Have a look at these snaps from the February 2005 election campaign. Political corruption at its worst – promises of free health care, 1200 baht per month bribes for senior citizens, slush funds for farmers, cash for local volunteers. And more! Yet another electoral outrage!”
Here: http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/votebuying1.jpg
And here: http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/votebuying2.jpg
[Hi Simonsays - I think you may have missed the point of these images and the post. Look which parties the images are referring to. AW]
“It’s so easy to brainwash people just indoctrinate them with the concept of an enemy and make them feel better (we the peaceful, educated and good deserve to be privileged ), they actually dance then to any tune. This concept has worked then, still works today – all over this globe. Dividing countries, cities and even neighborhoods.” – Indeed Rebecca! Indeed! And thus we have the ‘Red Shirt movement’ and its armed & terrorist wing ‘the black shirts’!!
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SimonSays, you won’t go down well here you know. You’ll be accused of being a Nazi or something. Just looking at the approvals and disapprovals of the comments here, its apparent that this blog is clearly not the place to air considered views critical of the Reds’ cause; even to suggest that Thaksin just might be pivotal in this situation could get you slammed. Still, you demonstrate the hypocrisy of those that charge the current government with censorship and corruption. I don’t deny that this government has made mistakes – delaying the break up of the siege was one – but the entire charge against this government does in fact rest upon a denial of Thaksin’s role in the current predicament. If Thaksin is innocent – which he is not (of corruption and human rights abuses, not to mention bank rolling the recent spate of terrorism in Bangkok, however incomparable it is with events in Pakistan, say) – then the case against the legitimacy of this government is surely strengthened. For if Thaksin was illegally or unfairly ousted then the coup and following government can of course be viewed as illegitimate and unjustified. The argument about the righteousness of the Reds’ cause is thus inextricable with Thaksin as you say.
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Yes, SS #194, I am well aware of what Nick Nostitz has said about the blackshirts, & I have no argument with it. But, & I would be surprised if he would disagree with me, it appears that there may be other men dressed in black who may have other agendas & loyalties. I think there is a danger in assuming that there is great unity within any body of players in this crisis (Redshirts, Yellowshirts, police, military, government), and further, black dress is ideal clothing for covert operations at night, so we can’t assume that it is the ‘uniform’ of only one body of operatives; it could just as well be clothing adopted by snipers who wanted to be able to slip easily from shadow to shadow, as well as the uniform of Seh Daeng’s group.
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Hi Lee,
thanks for the strobe light warnings. I hope one day we can meet, and soon!!
I guess this isn’t a broad minded/democratic forum at all then. How sorry I am to offend!! ha ha!! PC Liberal fascism seems to reign supreme, so, within the context of this ‘climate’ – & in the interest ‘of self’ I better let it all ‘pass.’
I will say this though – given the horrendous amount of killing, the blood needlessly spilt & all in the name of a plutocrat (Thaksin), not to mention the innocent civilians & by-standers affected and unwittingly involved in this cynical & Machievelian conflict – is this really how far the debate has progressed?? Red light warnings not to post anymore in fear of being labelled a ‘nazi’ – of NOTE REBECCA – the German model!!! Not Italian fascist, but German nazi!!!
I now bow out of this forum and will continue living my life here in Thailand as I have done for the past 17 years and witness, yet again, the resilience of all of its people, from all classes (NOTE REBECCA, ‘CLASSES’ – MEANING PLURAL) after collective national disaster!! All the best.
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Oh. Just realised this Australian pro-red>pro-Thaksin ‘anu’ site rightly mentioned the election posters weren’t to do with ‘his royal highness Thaksin’, but infact another party. My mistake!!
All fatted & corrupt politicians look the same to me!
But in all seriousness, I think we’re all aware that most Thai political parties, perhaps with the exception of the ‘Democrat Party’ – are essentially private companies owned by their respective leading politicians, who pay from the top-down in order to recruit the necessary connections/influence of the ‘Kamnans’ (governing officials on the sub-district level) in order to win general elections. Obviously, the more money invested, the more parliamentary seats the cosigned party wins – thus, the better leverage it will have to form a ruling cabinet.
It would be a grave mistake to assume Thaksin’s landslide victory in 2001 was an exception to this ‘rule.’ Seems to me ‘populism’ is a cynically purchased affair.
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SimonSays (199), Thank you for the powerful insight that Thai political parties are essentially private companies owned by their respective leading politicians. But why make an exception of the Democrat Party? The Democrats seem to be the political subsidiary of the Crown Property Bureau, the Judiciary its advocates, and the Military its hired thugs.
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R.N #200
Simply because the Democrat Party oppose ‘Thai Rak Thai.’ And that, above all else, is all that should concern us.
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Poor simple simonsay and lee who?
Doesn’t matter what anyone say in NM or anywhere else does it.
The fact is that you believe your “pure as a driven snow” military has to over throw the elected govt of the day in countless coup seems to have eluded you.
The fact that the democrats or its equivalent has always to be installed by the military after some “law” changes doesn’t bother you.
The fact that despite the lob sided changes in laws and the bludgeoning of people who won’t toe the line, parties who oppose the military / democrat equivalent has always won does not punch holes in your believe.
I can go on and on, but I realise it does not matter to you. Oh BTW, you can make excuses for Kasit, but what about the owner of the biggest whorehouse in Bangkok being in Ahbisit govt?
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neptunian, who? indeed. @202.
I never said or implied the army were as “pure as driven snow”. That is putting words into my mouth. I accept that the situation is messy and complex, but you want to frame the debate as a simple Reds vs Democrats/military conflict. The frame is not the right one. Having a critical stance on the Red Shirts is now being conflated for a wholesome embrace of all the military coups in Thailand and all of the errors made by the Democrats (and their equivalents!). A basic error of comprehension or deliberate tactic to slur? Whatever. Its moving the goalposts regardless. You cannot debate the role of Thaksin, nor shore up his credibility, so you attack the democrats by associating all of Thailand’s coups with it and me by false association. So much for “vigorous debate”.
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Neptunian #202 :
Re. “what about the owner of the biggest whorehouse in Bangkok being in Ahbisit govt?”
Who is this ? Name your sources man !!
Khun Chuwit is not in Abhisit’s government, as far as I know – and I thought he owned the most, and most high-class, “entertainment establishments” in Bangkok.
Ten of them, at last count.
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Neptunian Cosmos 202: Please don’t accuse me of supporting the military.
The shooting of 6 innocent civilians (red shirt supporters) in Wat Pathumwanaram during the crack down last week for me chillingly echoes the Krue Se mosque incident in April 2004. Please remember Thaksin’s use of excessive military force in the deep south fueled and fallowed the ground for the much wider insurgency that now plaques provinces like Yala and Pattani today.
4 January 2004:
Well-trained groups raided an army arsenal, torched 20 schools and three police posts, and set off several bombs. Thaksin declared martial law the following day. He sent combat troops to conduct raids on mosques and schools and the police made dozens of arrests, often on weak evidence. According to local religious leaders, more than 100 residents were abducted and killed in the four months after 4 January. It is difficult to verify these claims but there is certainly a widespread perception among southern Muslims that they are true.
28 April 2004:
Pattani’s historic Krue Se mosque – When militants holed up inside refused to surrender, Special Forces troops stormed the mosque and gunned down all 32. By midday, 108 militants, many of them lightly armed teenagers, were dead, along with 5 members of the security forces. Although a government appointed commission ruled that the army did use excessive force, not a single officer was brought to account.
October 25th, 2004: Tak Bai.
88 Muslim men and boys died at the hands of the security forces. Seven died when soldiers fired on the crowd, another three were found drowned in a nearby river, but perhaps most shockingly, 78 died of asphyxiation in army custody. After ordering the protestors to lie face down for over an hour, tying their hands behind their backs, and in many cases kicking them and hitting them with rifle butts, soldiers stacked some 1,300 men and boys four and five deep in trucks which were then covered with tarpaulins for a five-hour drive to an army barracks in sweltering hot Pattani.
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Chris B # 204.
yes, Khun Chuwit is the owner of the ‘massage parlour kingdom’ in and along Ratchada Road – including the enormous & surreal ‘Poseidon’ sex-complex where in early April this year, a car bomb went off……
He was the Chart-Thai party’s deputy leader in 2006 – he ran for Bangkok governor in 2004. His campaign billboards hilariously pictured him with a sledgehammer (or German shepherd guard dog, at heel). A ‘colourful’ character.
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Neptunian @ 202: I think he also has a massage parlour called ‘Neptune.’
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“The huge massage parlour and entertainment centre on Ratchadaphisek, Din Daeng, is owned by Bhumjaithai Party secretary-general Pornthiva’s father, Surinat Saksiriwetakul.
“I’m not running the Poseidon business, even though it is a family business,” Mrs Pornthiva said.” (minister of commerce)
This is Asia and its a family business – if its on Neptune, I will by that statement. The of course she would not be “hands on” with the running, so on face value the statement is true.
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Neptunian #208, she was also the manager for some time. This was widely talked about, even in the press, & led me to comment that it was now official that ‘Thai Commerce’ is a euphemism for ‘prostitution’.
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Neptunian Cosmos 208 – then further evidence of militant red-shirt terrorism. It must havebeen them who planted the car bomb outside Poseidon, since the Bhumjaithai Party, or ‘blue shirts’ – are anti-UDD.
Michael 209 – What do you mean ‘Thai commerce’ is a euphemism for ‘prostitution’??
There are other forms of commerce here in Thailand outside the prostitution ‘industry’ you know. Or are you just being PC liberal clever/snide once again??
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Michael #197:
I just received this from a friend in Australia. I’m going to paste the whole article, because at the end of the day, we’ve all been affected by Thaksin’s terrorist strategies, his Napoleonic urges ‘to return’, his ‘ultimate business plan’ – from his strangling of the commercial district (not ‘red light district’ Michael, commercial) to his extremely close relationship with the recently killed terrorist Seh Daeng and his terrorist underlings, ‘the black shirts.’
In short, we’ve all been in ‘the killing zone’ here in Thailand in one way or another.
I’m perpetually surprised that, perhaps with the exception of Lee – who sharply mentioned: “Some were no doubt disappointed within the Reds for this decision by their leaders but the leadership were certainly holding out for even earlier elections not because an earlier date would somehow be more principled but because it would have allowed Thaksin – who you, contra any serious analyst, naively deny any significant role in this conflict – to have some influence over the military reshuffle in September and stand a better chance of winning back his stolen fortunes.” (#189)
– everyone on this forum is so eager to criticize the Abhisit government and yet are so willing to turn a blind eye to the deliberately disruptive and terrorist strategies of the red shirt movement. It’s leadership and militant wing. Both of which were/are wholeheartedly supported by the rank and file of the red shirts – celebrated as ‘saviours of the people’ – especially after they gunned down military officers during the battle of Phan Fa bridge. The ‘Ronin’ emergence during Pan Fa precipitated the military’s rightful use of live ammunition, prior to which they were using tear gas, rubber bullets, and/or firing live rounds in the air to disperse the reds.
I would go one step further than Lee here, and clearly state that it seems clear to me, from the first day of the UDD’s arrival in Bangkok to their financial sustenance coming from abroad, this certainly was a cleverly orchestrated strategy coming from Thaksin himself in close communication with the UDD leadership, in order to:
1. Cripple Bangkok into submission – get an election before the September military re-shuffle.
2. Use terror tactics to frighten (all of the bombs that went off during their two month stay) at the same time to enforce ‘point 1′
3. Use a para-military wing to ‘defend’ the rank and file and terrorise.
4. If/when all else fails, to attempt to cause maximum damage on Bangkok as possible. Burn and loot it! Please note a molotov coctail thrown at Central World in anger and frustration will not burn it down!! All of these arson attacks, must have been planned prior to them taking place. To burn a building down of that size is ‘an operation’ that most certainly requires a strategy.
5. Contingency plan B would be to create an underground resistance, an insurgency not dissimilar to the one(s) in Yala and Pattani, and to continue ‘the resistance’ by employing terror tactics…car bombs, motorbike bombs, assassinations, & the further destruction of government related buildings. In short, from point 1 – 5 is ‘to terrorise.’
Here’s the article I want you to read concerning your evident ambiguity concerning ‘the black shirts’.
[Here is the link. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE29Ae02.html Please post links, not full articles. AW]
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AW: Please don’t thump into my posts. Since I was sent the article as an email without the link, I pasted the entire piece. I don’t really see the point of me pasting the article to then have you paste the link. Aside from the obvious fact you simply don’t ‘agree’ with my post, and therefore want to some how disrupt it.
[Apart from avoiding a lot of space being taken up with the full text of an article that has already been cited and linked to here several times I also thought it important that readers see that this is a genuine article, not just the product of an anonymous emailer (from Australia of all places!). It is an important article and should be cited and linked to properly. AW]
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Simon Says (#198) – You certainly get a lot of space on a forum that “isn’t a broad minded/democratic forum at all.” Perhaps you also helped define ‘reconciliation’ for the Thai government as meaning ‘silence and surrender.’ I think what you mean is that a lot of people here don’t agree with your opinion. Is that a bad thing?
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SimonSays, its nice to hear a voice that speaks with clarity and sense on such an admittedly complex situation. Glad there is someone else that isn’t a blind advocate of the proletariat regardless of the politico-business machinations behind it. Neither you nor I condone any use of military force against innocent civilians, but the mere critical stance – informed and argued as opposed to asserted – against the Reds central figure hasn’t elicited a thoughtful and reasoned counter-argument, has it? Just an attempt to slur by false association with the alleged crimes of the current government and all “equivalent” parties to the Democrats. Why can’t people just be honest and say that they support the Reds because of its pro-poor, pro-people ethos, and admit such support is complicated and in fact compromised by the leadership’s driving self-serving political and business interests and by the integral “fringe” of terrorists? SimonSays, you ought to be lucky you have been graced with soo much space on this blog, given its left-of-centre orientation, after all, being “allowed” to have a voice is easily confused for some with having one’s views and arguments being taken seriously and “vigorously” debated. Thanks for the link by the way – very informative. I think this debate, however, ought to have its own thread, though it probably needs several. I’d kindly suggest to AW that there are many important issues cropping up here in this thread that might be lost once this thread has moved down the line and that some of these issues could well do with their own dedicated threads with the key points for discussion delineated in advance to avoid much of the cross-talk that has occurred here.
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SimpleSimon #211: I’d already read that article, & have no argument with most of it. However, as in the case of Nick’s account, I continue to keep an open mind about other ‘Men in Black’, for the reasons I’ve stated. Please understand, I do not deny the presence of Redshirt-aligned ‘Men in Black’. I just don’t think that is necessarily the whole story. I’ve seen too many other references which cause me to believe that it may not be that simple.
Further, the PM’s denial that the pro-govt forces took out Seh Daeng means very little, when it is very clear he has blatantly lied about so much else (The attacks on the temple are a prime example. To believe Abhisit is to caste non-aligned medics and foreign journalists, eyewitnesses, as liars.).
I am skeptical about these things – which means I am open to other explanations, not that I have made up my mind.
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When I read all of comment I’ve got realized something about what’s going on and what is the fact for your idea.
I’m so confused about what is going on with Simonsay or another people I just want you to think on this situation on Nick report that Civilian has got shot from Military and they don’t have any weapon, this thing we try to find who will made responsibility about this situation they got shot you understand about this? please do not think from the past what happen from the past becuase of you don’t know the truth absolutely sure you just got this information from news and report , that’s right? please do not think everything from yourself open your mind and please focus on what’s happen with me and what’s happen with who have got shot and died.
You’ll think every situation that you give example this from Thaksin gov. But if you think from other side who can control Military, absolutely sure Thanksin can not. He got no power from this, cuase military don’t want to be under Thanksin hands.
PS> from my comment #190 If Red Shirt have this Black shirt or a lot of Weapon and Ammo in this mob, Why do they use when Military storm to they protest area?
I want to say Why don’t they use (just only one single word meaning is change)
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Chanchai above. You’re correct, absolutely right, that the red shirts have no ‘terrosrist’ wing…as we all know, it was the army that fired grenades into the BTS Sala Daeng station to discredit and make the red shirts look bad!!In chess, we protect the king, I suggest you do the same!
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Abhisit asks Nostitz for evidence (from The Nation):
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Has he not seen the Canadian journalist getting shot in the leg on CNN? Still claiming self defence and clear targets is hilarious. Self-defence of his regime, and the protestors were very clear targets, sure.
Someone should have screened him the video taken from above you hosted on facebook and your report Nick at the time he was answering questions. Well done for putting the question of accountability to him though Nick!
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“The PM replied by saying soldiers did fire warning shots but live bullets were used in self defence and on clear targets.”
How can Abhisit still insist on this line? Incredible! Sure, Nick was a “clear target,” and the soldiers had to defend themselves against his camera. The insured Nation photographer (as reported in the Nation) endured a very similar situation. And sure: with every of the killed protesters, they found M 16 or AK 47 lying next to them, which the dead had used to shoot at the soldiers. Which is why the numbers of dead civilians and dead soldiers is almost equal (Ha!).
It seems that Abhisit came to the press conference unprepared–he neither seemed to have anticipated Nick’s presence, nor did he kn0w his NM report, nor did he even know that Prachatai etc. has been closed. Is he still in charge, and what does he do all day?
Interestingly, the Bangkok Post “reported” on its front page what the PM had said about his meeting with the envoys. No word whatsoever about the press conference with the journalists. Apparently, the BP’s editors must have thought that “foreign poison of the mind” should not reach readers in Bangkok…
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AW
One part of the Nation report I found interesting:
“In regard to six bodies inside Pathum Wanaram Temple, Abhisit said a “full investigation still needs to be made”. His vow came despite a government document handed to journalists yesterday concluding that what took place was the result of attacks by “those armed with weapons of war” but people who were not soldiers. ”
So Ahbisit wants a full investigation, although a government document has already reached a conclusion with no investigation having taken place.
The logic here escapes me, must be my inability to understand Thai culture, but to reach the conclusion before you have investigated seems bizarre.
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Srithanonchai # 222.
The Western press here in Thailand is hopelessly (and condescendingly) pro-Red>pro-Thaksin.
I don’t think Nick’s presence or non-presence is of any consequence/importance to the prime minister at all. Do you?
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@SimonSays
“The Western press here in Thailand is hopelessly (and condescendingly) pro-Red>pro-Thaksin.
I don’t think Nick’s presence or non-presence is of any consequence/importance to the prime minister at all. Do you?”
The Thai press here in Thailand is hopelessly (and condescendingly) pro-government, pro-Ahbisit, pro-PAD, pro-Monarchy.
I agree that Nick’s or any foreign journalist is of no importance to the PM, their presence is of so little consequence to him, it doesn’t even bother him that his security forces are shooting them.
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Pro-Red because, like Lee pointed out, the intellectual default position of most Westerners (who tend to over simplify the situation here and perpetuate this in the media) is to be ‘pro-poor’ – this is also Thaksin’s default position. This over simplification of ‘poor verses the elite rich, down trodden rural verses the spoilt urban’ does no justice to how truly disturbing and messy this situation actually is. In fact, by appealing to people’s natural humanistic tendencies to support the down trodden, it colours the entire picture, and therefore distorts it, with a red filter. It seems quite evident, that in actual fact, and yet again, ‘poor people’ (the rank and file of the red shirts) have been used as political pawns, in fact many have died as political pawns, for yet another corrupt and autocratic politician. Thaksin.
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Maybe you can also explain why the Thai media is so anti poor or anti buffalo as the so called educated people refer to them.
Do you think that these pro red westerners who are guilty of of over simplifying the problems, are this way because of a lack of understanding of Thailand?
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“SimonSays”:
You said:
“I don’t think Nick’s presence or non-presence is of any consequence/importance to the prime minister at all. Do you?”
My presence yesterday was important enough for the Prime Minister to have, when the Q&A was finished, called me over to where he sat, and asked me where exactly i was during the incident at Rajaparop. I answered that i was one of the 11 who were stuck there for hours, an issue he was quite clearly aware off.
Furthermore, i initiated my question that i was aware off the existence of the so called “Black Shirts”, and will therefore not portray the Red Shirts as an entirely peaceful movement. But that, nevertheless, there were more than a few incidents where the military has broken their own rules of engagement and have initiated deadly fire (without warning shots) against unarmed protesters. I cited as a blatant example the one i got caught up in.
There is a whole lot more to be said, about the injured and killed EMS volunteers, and also about the issue of the “Black Shirts”, when the time is right, and investigations have been finished.
I do not put much trust though in the official investigating bodies that will perform the investigations – the National Human Rights Commission, and the National Anti Corruption Commission. Therefore i have asked to include, as we journalists were affected heavily as well, a to us acceptable representation in the investigation panel – a request that was flatly denied.
The “western press” reports what it sees, what it investigates, based on fact. It does not care one bit if some internet warriors or politicians mistakenly carry the believe that the “western press” would be “hopelessly (and condescendingly) pro-Red>pro-Thaksin”.
News is naturally limited as it has to give almost hourly reports during such massive events. If the government cannot give one single proof of its claims, for example of army only shooting at armed protesters, while the “western press” has filmed and photographed the opposite – that the army has shot on more than a few occasions exactly those unarmed protesters (and journalists) in front of hour eyes and cameras – then the “western press” has to report this, including showing the footage.
Nevertheless, there is not just the news business, there is also the much slower follow up. I will continue writing my books. And the third book (the second will come out soon) will also deal with the issue of the “Black Shirts”.
But be assured – you will mostly still not enjoy what i will have to say – as i follow fact, and not ideology or mistaken opinions based on insufficient understanding of facts.
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Nick Nostitz 228.
Then it’s warming to hear we have a democratic, considerate, tolerant & articulate PM like Abhisit in power, who is aware of such things.
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Nick Nostitz – 228
For us foreigners living in Thailand it’s quite positive that the Abhisit government isn’t throwing out foreign newsmen, not even CNN’s
This is unlike I suspect any the countries that border Thailand where I suspect the reception would be very different. (Please note those of you that compare Thailand with Burma.)
It’s also unlike the reaction Thaksin took to the FEER reporters isn’t it? Nick gets to talk with Abhisit, not something Thaksin would have encouraged I think.
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“LesAbbey”:
As to the FEER incident – i would suggest to reread the article that caused the problems. Other than bad journalism – stating business relations between Thaksin and a certain other person without offering one single bit of proof, such as companies, contracts, statistics, etc. – the responsible were more than lucky to escape an outright lese majeste case, which they might not have done since after the coup lese majeste became a popular method to shut up political opponents.
Thaksin was then, this government is now. Whatever Thaksin did wrong does not excuse the wrongdoings of this government. Presently the discussion does not revolve around what happened under Thaksin, but that the army during the crackdown has on many occasions, clearly violated even their own rules of engagement. I would suggest not derailing the discussion any further than already, and stick to the topic. To remind you – it is not what Thaksin has done during his terms as PM, but lots of dead and injured people very recently.
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Simonsay #217
Thank you for your comments.
Please look ater this on 6th October 2516, Situation and roll play as the same please check for this.
I am be the one that attent in the mob everyday in the night I know the situation everyday I stay theire since 8 pm until 7 am in the morning almost everyday. I saw Si-lom mob (that’s i know this is PAD) they come and try to provoke us to fight with them. In that’s case everybody need to go and fight with them but we know the situation that’s if we do something that ruin Gov. will had right to clear our protestor area. After 2 days since Si-lom mob came in their area had M79 (That Gov. announce that luanch from red shirt side) luanch to them I just only ask you that gov. announce on Television that M79 luanch from Rama 6 statue. I just want to know that what is the good result if we did this to them. Before they got M79 they trow Soda bottle a lot of bottle and Slingshot to us a lot. About 15 red shirt protestor had hurt from this situation but Free T.V. give just only information that they got slingshot from red shirt. This is the fact from Thai Media.
Everybody in red shirt protestor we got respect to our King and just want to know who said that I don’t love and royalty to my “KING”
In your whole life before you said that you love our KING before Red shirt come what is the thing that you used to did that shown you respect and did this to Monarchy and Our King.
I used to be the one that be ordrianed for Her Royal Highness Princess Galyani Vadhana, the Princess of Naradhiwas this is the truth for the respect to Our monarchy and our King don’t just only said and Think please find something proved from abstract to be Reality.
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A few questions for Nick N:
- Do you know for a fact that the government used snipers (not just regular troops on the street) to kill unarmed civilians? If so, to what extent?
- Do you know for a fact that the Black Shirt snipers killed innocent civilians? If so, to what extent?
- To what extent do you know, as opposed to believe, that the government troops knowingly fired on unarmed civilians? I.e. how widespread, how many deaths for sure?
- If you had not experienced being shot at how would your view of the Reds be any different or would it have remained the same?
Grateful for any answers you can provide. Thanks.
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SimonSays (#222) The Western press here in Thailand is hopelessly (and condescendingly) pro-Red>pro-Thaksin.
I don’t know about SimonSays, but I have spoken to many Western journalists in Thailand and don’t know a single one who isn’t critical of Thaksin. I think you mean: the Western press is critical of the the coup and the PAD and/or government lines, and therefore they are pro-Thaksin. This is the Manichean approach typical of the PAD, which slandered and denigrated virtually anyone even mildly critical of them.
LesAbbey(#228) And to finish your tale, you should note that Thaksin in the end did not throw out the FEER reporters. Readers unfamiliar with the case might not realize that from your account. The incident is not to Thaksin’s credit at all; no one with any sense would ever call him a defender of freedom of speech. In retrospect, though, it is grimly amusing to recall what excuse Thaksin used to go after FEER. “The more things change,…”
For more information on the case, see:
http://cpj.org/2003/03/attacks-on-the-press-2002-thailand.php
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Let me begin by saying that Thaksin was and is a “bad man.”
He did not respect democratic procedure when he was in power; he used his political power to enrich himself, his family and select members of his government and of his wider group of “friends”.
He initiated violence against farmers who dared to protest against his policy decisions, he ramped up the Southern problem by increasing state violence there, and he was responsible for the deaths and human rights abuses of the War on Drugs.
It would be insane to deny any of this, just as it would be to suggest that these horrors are all he was responsible for as PM of Thailand.
The Redshirts are a pro-democracy, anti-dictatorship movement in part, possibly in great part, funded by Thaksin and lead, in part, by present and former Thaksin associates; many of the Red rank and file are Thaksin supporters who would love to see him back at the helm of the country. These too are things that cannot be denied.
And Thaksin’s motives for backing this movement and playing whatever leadership role he plays in it are no doubt as venal and as indifferent to democracy as an ideal as were many of his actions when he was PM. It’s doubtful that any leopard’s spot-changing miracles have taken place over the past four years.
I hope I haven’t left out anything significant, because I suspect that, if I haven’t, the anti-Red posters on this thread, and just about every other similar thread on every Thailand-related web-board, will have absolutely nothing to say in opposition to what I have said and have to say.
That is unless, of course, they are willing to come out of the closet and admit that they are quite simply anti-democracy and pro-dictatorship, much like the PAD and the numerous elements in the media and the wider middle and upper classes in Thailand who abhor the thought of what democracy would mean in this country.
Like every functioning democracy on the face of planet the Redshirt movement is a complex and far from ethically pure phenomenon, but to claim that they are not at all interested in democracy is the height of absurdity, if for no other reason than that it flies in the face of the “it’s all about Thaksin” meme that has been in viral overdrive in Thailand since September 20th, 2006.
Even if we accept the blanket denials of what tens of thousands of Thais have “said” by rallying with the UDD, and agree that all this is and has been about Thaksin and nothing else, there remains the sticky issue of Thaksin or a proxy/avatar of Thaksin needing to win an election to get what he and they want.
In other words, unlike the present regime whose very existence as such is dependent on the Royal Thai Army and the “Palace” that it is so loudly and hysterically committed to “defending”, the Reds are 100% dependent on democratic process to get into power. They need an election.
When they say they want Abhisit out and to force an election they mean just that, hence the anti-dictatorship, pro-democracy slant of everything they say and do. To suggest otherwise is to fly in the face of a rather simple reality: the only road open to Thaksin and his phuak to return to power is to somehow contrive to have democracy, such as it has been in Thailand, re-instituted.
I don’t accept this “It’s all about Thaksin” view of the Reds, but even if I did, I would have to side with those demanding democratic elections and give my support to people, like the Reds, who would have to allow themselves to be “used” by Thaksin in order to use him to engineer a democratic system in Thailand.
And that would not and does not make me a “Thaksin supporter”; it simply means that I accept and believe that democracy, with all its imperfections, is better than any of the alternatives, even in Thailand. It also means that I am a Thai people supporter and respect utterly their right to choose who they will be governed by, whether or not their choices would reflect my values and aspirations.
Like all the other non-Thais engaged in this debate, I can always pack up and go home if I don’t like what an electoral majority of Thais finally make of Thailand when they are empowered to do so.
I don’t think I’ll be doing anything of the kind, but not having that option is really what popular sovereignty is all about in a way. Many of the blatantly anti-democratic elements in Thailand do have that option; and that, in a way, is what makes it so easy for them to dismiss the value of electoral procedure and democratic government. Living here, they’re not really governed by anyone. As long, that is, as they can hold back the Red tide.
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Emjay, #233
You missed a very important fact about Thaksin — this guy seized power from Sonthi Bunyaratkalin when the latter was playing golf.
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Nick Nostitz – 229
I would suggest not derailing the discussion any further than already, and stick to the topic.
Apologies Nick for bringing up Thaksin who obviously has nothing to do with recent events. What I was trying to say, on topic I guess, is that Abhisit hasn’t thrown any of the Western journalists out for their coverage. That in itself is positive when we compare Thailand to its neighbours I suspect. The fact that Abhisit spoke with you is again positive. All this does tend to remove the “Thailand equals Burma” line being peddled by some. (I know not by you and I admire your accuracy in reporting what you saw.)
To Superanonymous, yes I should have said for those that weren’t around that the two FEER journalists were not in the end expelled although that was the original government decision.
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The purpose of the black shirts was to create conditions where troops would fire into crowds of red shirts.
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“Lee”:
Some of your questions i cannot answer you yet – for certain points i need more confirmation and corroboration before i will say something about them.
But yes, i have been at several incidents where the army has broken their own rules of engagement, and initiated deadly fire without warning shots against unarmed protesters, killed and injured some, and has also fired at ambulances. The fire clearly came from the army lines.
And as the Prime Minister has suggested – i am perfectly willing to testify. I fear though, given the two organizations that were ordered to “investigate” the events, that i will not be called to testify, as i wasn’t (and neither were many other witnesses i know) during the October 7, 2008 “investigations” (their final report, by the way, was rejected by the attorney general, for not having enough police witnesses).
How many deaths we really had is difficult to say, other than that there is increasing evidence that there might have been more killed than the official number. But at the present time i cannot go into detail.
The Black Shirts have existed and operated. I have seen them during one night, where they arrived after a Red Shirt was injured by the army. They walked into no man’s land, they have launched a series of grenades against the army lines. The army returned fire, and injured a few Red Shirt guards at the barricades. More i can’t say at the present time about the Black Shirt issue.
I don’t deal in “views” and “opinions” – i care about facts, and interpreting events according to facts. That i came under fire by the army is a fact. That the army fired on, and successively injured the unarmed Red Shirts in my images is a fact. That there were no warning shots by the military is a fact. That the Red Shirts did not fire against the army there and then is a fact. And the only conclusion of those facts is that the army has clearly violated their own set rules of engagement – which state that only armed protesters are a legitimate target.
I have, by the way, also came under fire by the Black Shirts while i was with the army during their operation at the Sarasin intersection, where Chandler was injured by a M79 grenade. I have also been at Silom while the grenades were launched against the PAD there.
I base what i write on having followed the situation closely since the beginning of the street protests nearly 5 years ago. I haven’t just arrived recently, i have lived permanently and worked here since the Chuan 1 Government.
Most of what i will have to say about these issues i will say in the third book of my series, as i will only say them in the proper context, and after i have researched the issues as much as i possibly can. Many more interviews with my sources on all sides are necessary as well.
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“LesAbbey”:
To what extend Thaksin has been involved with recent events is mostly subject to speculation. Don’t underestimate though the ordinary protesters – they have played in certain decision making processes a much larger role than is generally reported.
By the way, yesterday night i watched the government’s mouthpiece Channel 11 – two presenters there accused Dan Rivers of CNN to have had a sexual relationship with Jakrapop Penkair.
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Thanks Nick for taking time to answer my questions (231). You seem to to admit that whilst the Army has broken its rules of engagement – “several incidents” at least – the Reds, via its elite corps the Blacks, have too, including the use of grenades. So you agree that the situation is far from black and white.
I was trying to get an idea of the relative infringements of the rules of engagement to assess the extent to which either side had relied on such infringements as a matter of policy or not. I was also interested in finding out how widespread such infringements were on either side. I do not take sides in this – for a start my life is not so directly affected despite being a Thailand resident – but I too have regard for the facts.
Yet as you would know, facts are not easily separable from views or values. The truth you seek to investigate is already informed by your values and the assumptions that lay the ground for your choice of topic, the angle you adopt, what you seek and how you seek it. Not to mention how you interpret it. This is especially so in analyses of the broader political picture. Whether soldiers fired on innocents or not is a straight forward proposition which can be assessed as fact or not, but once we start to try to make sense of the interactions between facts then interpretation comes into play. So, I’m not disagreeing with you Nick. I admire your courage and truth-seeking mentality. I just want to say, in a friendly way, that I would hope you know its not so always simple to distinguish fact and value, or truth and opinion.
My last comment here is on this blog. Five people – at the time of writing – disapproved my questions to you. This shows me that people either don’t care for the truth in the same way as you do; they don’t care that you are being asked questions about the truth; or they are motivated by personal grudges against me because I have voiced critical views of the Reds’ which they dislike. Either way, it makes this blog look bad. If people aren’t interested in what you have to say in relation to these kind of questions or are motivated by grudge then I don’t think NM will ever generate the kind of debate it aims to.
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Hi Lee,
Just to clarify — nobody “disapproved” your questions (indeed, if we had they would not have gone on New Mandala in the first place). Some readers (not many!) simply indicated that they didn’t find your comment to be of “quality” — an inherently subjective measure, in your words: “not easily separable from views or values”. We are still tinkering with the comments system and expect that, at some stage, further changes and refinements will be made. We have appreciated all of the feedback on the new system that we have received thus far.
And, hey, I expect that my comment here will garner some thumbs down too. No harm in that!
Best wishes to all,
Nich
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Lee (#231): To add to the list of questions, a fairly straightforward one, addressed to anyone who might have the answer.
Does anyone know how many of the dead civilians were armed, either alleged or confirmed? (Possession of a slingshot doesn’t count as armed in my personal point of view, but any information is useful.)
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“Lee”:
I think in my two years of writing articles here at New Mandala, i have made it quite clear that nothing in Thailand is a simple Black/White issue. I gather and collect facts primarily, i talk with people of all sides, i corroborate information i get. I try to cite as few anonymous sources as possible, unfortunately the nature of the issues at hand make it necessary to have sources that have to remain absolutely anonymous.
And most importantly – i cover the events on the ground.
It will take time to properly research the recent events. Much happened when journalists have not been present, and at the time i am working on being able to make sense of these unobserved events. Just wait and see what i will write in the book that deals with the recent events.
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Nick is your book on sale in Thailand? Where can I buy it?
Lee I gave your questions (231) a thumbs up, I very much appreciate your comments, these threads would be very stale and boring without your contributions.
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I notice that many/most people commenting here seem to have accepted the common (military/government supported) wisdom that the “blackshirts” are associated with and perhaps even under some leadership of the UDD
Asia Times published an “interview with UDD blackshirts” recently…
since we are all keen to nail down this intuitively false premise that
the UDD has an armed wing we read the article, and it seemed too plausible
and then someone alerted that Asia Times is part of Sondhi’s Manager media group
so now we know its a setup… they have just confirmed that the
blackshirts are NOT part of the UDD and the redshirts
the probability that the M79 bombings, etc were a Newin/Sondhi spoiling operation has increased to a near certainty
meanwhile the other myth even more strenuously promoted by the military/government is that the snipers were not “their” soldiers
talking of snipers and elite tactics….
the behaviour of the Thai Red Cross and Chulalongkorn Hospital in:
- harbouring military snipers (see Porntips rapidly suppressed report
about evidence found on the 7/8th floors) and
- facilitated the public outcry of interference in their operations and
- who refused to assist redshirt casualties
was despicable and even more horrifying when we look at the royal and high prestige elite figures that are the patrons, board and executive members of the Red Cross organisation. Even our favourite royal princess was involved in visiting the hospital first to discuss moving the Sangharad and second to “encourage the staff”.
this of course at the same time as the military were positioning their
snipers along the overhead rail and tall buildings including at the
hospital for the purpose of “taking out terrorists” as announced by Abhisit.
I am waiting for the CRES or the government to explain what information or rules of engagement they provided their snipers so they could identify the “terrorists” that they were supposed to take out.
Were they told to avoid the medicos, journalists and unarmed red and non-red civilians many of whom that they shot and killed?
Are the CRES and government guilty of giving faulty rules of engagement or were the snipers incompetent or perhaps encouraged during early morning visit by the same royal or other elites to be excessively brutal in their targetting?
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David Brown.
Why is it ‘an intuitively false premise’?
Do you have solid proof that the ‘black shirts’ aren’t associated with the UDD??
“so now we know its a setup… they have just confirmed that the
blackshirts are NOT part of the UDD and the redshirts”
Where have they confirmed this?
Anyway, this all seems like ‘counter-propaganda’ once again. We’re swinging like a pendulum here. Pro-Red, Anti-Red. Pro-red, Anti-Red.
I will post the link I posted here on Saturday one more time just in case you missed it. Read between the lines. Kenneth Todd Ruiz and Olivier Sarbil are not Sondhi. I’m not saying this article is the gospel truth, but it has certainly given further insight into this dark presence.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE29Ae02.html
Nick Nostitz has also stated many times that they do exist and are linked to the red movement. I look forward to reading his book on that when it emerges.
I don’t think anyone is denying the links between the Red Shirts and ‘the black shirts’ – are they?
“the probability that the M79 bombings, etc were a Newin/Sondhi spoiling operation has increased to a near certainty” – do you have proof of this????
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if you are insinuating that because the article was published in’ Asia Times Online’ it must be false – that’s still not solid proof enough to claim they aren’t linked to the UDD/Red-Shirts, and that the M-79 bombings are a Newin/Sondhi ‘spoiling operation’.
Have I missed something?
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David Brown has an axe to grind. He writes passionately but his words are loaded with emotionally-driven conviction rather than the calm cynicism expressed by others here. There has already been far too much speculation. But to quibble with some of your points, DB:
DB: Asia Times published an “interview with UDD blackshirts” recently… since we are all keen to nail down this intuitively false premise that the UDD has an armed wing we read the article …
> No. There is nothing “intuitively false” about the link between the Reds and the Black Shirts. Relying on “intuition” is not a reliable policy for ascertaining the truth about anything.
DB: … and it seemed too plausible and then someone alerted that Asia Times is part of Sondhi’s Manager media group so now we know its a setup…
> We “know” nothing of a “set up”. What is Sondhi’s role in editorial at the Asia Times? Does he control Eddie Leung’s management of the publication? Did he task Kenneth Todd Ruiz and Olivier Sarbil to write what they wrote? So these journalists can’t think for themselves? And so I guess all of Rupert Murdoch’s papers all produce material he commissions and agrees with too? Get real. You can’t say, so you insinuate, speculate. You lead with suggestion fitting for those who distrust large companies and capitalism in general. Its a “class war” (i.e. decades out of date) mentality but it still has a grip on many (morphed into anti-globalisation / anti-anything Western usually, certainly anti-America). Yawn.
DB: … they have just confirmed that the blackshirts are NOT part of the UDD and the redshirts the probability that the M79 bombings, etc were a Newin/Sondhi spoiling operation has increased to a near certainty …
> “They”? Who has “confirmed” the non-relationship of the Reds and Blackshirts? Where is the evidence? You are not making a coherent argument. As for a “probability” becoming a “near certainty” that Sondhi’s group were behind the grenade attacks, I think you are living in fantasy land. A letter to The Economist notes, “The Reds leadership not only tolerated, but clearly encouraged, those violent elements (Ronins clad in black), to belong at their camp. And the Red camp actually cheered (also captured in many video clips) announcements by Reds leaders on stage of M79 grenade launches and fatalities inflicted on soldiers and civilians.” And another reminds us of “Chilling quotes from the … interview given by General Khattiya to the Wall Street Journal: ‘He (General Khattiya) says he raised his ragtag militia for one last mission: to turn the marathon antigovernment protest on the streets of Bangkok into a full-blown civil war.’ ‘I won’t leave until Mr. Thaksin tells me to’ – rogue commander says he has his own authority stemming directly from Mr. Thaksin.” The Red leaders were encouraging violence and hatred for Bangkok. I suppose you think that Central World was burned down by Sondhi’s lot too?! (and I bet you are a 911 “truther” as well).
DB, your “intuitive” approach is a politically-driven sham.
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Compare this thread with that at the Economist (which I have grown to detest, but still):
http://www.economist.com/user/Vichai%2BN/comments
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Of course I do not have proof of the negative assertion that the blackshirts, snipers and M79 bombers are definitely not linked to the UDD and the rally at Rajaprasong.
however:
I wonder if anyone can say they have proof that they are linked?
by linked I mean known and managed by at least some of the UDD leadership.
I agree there are some photos and Nick’s statement comes the closest for me to saying that there was some relationship between the reds and the “men in black”.
but almost all of you are saying that the blacks were associated and aiding the reds and I just think the topic should be pursued to greater depth than that.
for me, having followed the reds for 4 years and recently basically night and day it is certainly counter-intuitive that the prime leaders (Veera, Nattawut, Jatuporn, Weng, etc) were associated in any close way with the shooters and bombers. To me they saw violence as counter-productive to their goals and the thousands of followers agreed with them. Numbers rather than force counts in democracy and I believe they accept that.
Seh Daeng of course was a wild card in the pack, perhaps tolerated but not cooperated with. Maybe he led and was associated, but my observation is that he was more involved with the slingshot armed guards than the more sophisticated blacks, snipers and bombers.
The elites incl royals are desperate to defeat and suppress the reds so we have to recognise that their acolytes and servants will do everything that is possible to achieve the objective.
The military/government/CRES are denying that the snipers, which caused most of the deaths and many of the injuries were theirs. Abhisit announced that snipers would be deployed to take out terrorists but no details have been provided on how his snipers wouls be able to differentiate. Seh Daeng maybe a particular case of course. All the rest seem to have been indiscriminate free killing.
The military/government/CRES are trying to distance themselves completly from the snipers because they could be liable to charges of uncontrolled murder on the streets.
As the evidence mounts, particularly at Wat Pathum, they are being found out as liars and if they are lying about this then why not about the men in black and the bombers? Unless they are a case of Newin/Suthep running independent of Abhisit?
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Mr. Bowen – concerning your allegations of Chulalongkorn hospital, you state Chulalongkorn hospital refused to assist red shirt casualties: here’s video evidence of the bullying tactics employed by the red shirts. Please watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLq-3HtyZKs
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYdASCkNa_4&feature=related
But then again, maybe you think this is fabricated also?? A conspiracy fabricated by ‘Newin & Sonthi co.ltd’ to discredit, what is in reality, the bullying, ultra-fascistic tendencies of this Thaksin led ‘red’ movement. Democratic indeed!!!
Chulalongkorn hospital is a government hospital, notorious for its highly professional treatment (I belong to this hospital, so I have direct experience of this) for ordinary people who can’t afford private treatment. Please visit the link ‘physicians for human rights dot org’ concerning the hosptial staff’s excellent and professional duties/involvement as well as their medical neutrality/integrity during the past harrowing 2 months:-
http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/site-search/search.jsp?query=Chulalongkorn+hospital+and+the+UDD
This ‘red’ movement that you are propagandising for has, unarguably, a terrorist wing amongst them – much to their ultimate discredit!!
Self-defeatism never goes very far. Neither do liars.
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“superanonymous”:
“Does anyone know how many of the dead civilians were armed, either alleged or confirmed?”
I have so far confirmed one single death of an armed man from the Black Shirts.
That’s it.
“doyle2499″:
Asia Books and Kinokuniya do sell my book.
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And here’s an interview with Seh Daeng – one of many – the ‘unofficial’ leader of the terrorist ‘black shirts.’
But I suppose – according to you Mr.Bowen – he was a ‘Newin/Sonthi fictional (perhaps robotic) creation’ also (???):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1BVTU_6QrA
Enjoy!
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Simon Says posts above – yes : you’ve certainly “missed something”.
It’s a war between different military factions, allied to different Royalist factions vying for position re. the Royal succession.
That’s yet another important dimension to the Red-Yellow Shirt, “class-struggle”, regional struggles, Thaksin versus Bangkok elite perspectives.
This is an EXTREMELY complicated set of problems – don’t be a SIMPLETON Simon Says !
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CRYPTIC Chris: My ‘have I missed something?’ question was concerning David Brown’s ‘news flash’ that the black shirts aren’t connected to the UDD, that the M-79 bombings are a Newin/Sonthi ‘spoiling operation’, and that because an article on the black shirts appeared in Asia Times Online, it is some how a fabrication.
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Dear all,
Just to let you know: this thread is blocked in Thailand with True Internet since this morning, 1. June.
The “GESTAPO”…. sorry “CAPO” Page is displayed instead
การเข้าถึงข้อมูลดังกล่าวนี้ ถูกระงับเป็นการชั่วคราว
โดยอาศัยอำนาจตาม
พระราชกำหนดการบริหารราชการ
ในสถานการณ์ฉุกเฉิน พ.ศ. ๒๕๔๘
ตามคำสั่งของศูนย์อำนวยการแก้ไขสถานการณ์ฉุกเฉิน
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superanonymous // May 31, 2010 at 4:09 pm #242
“Does anyone know how many of the dead civilians were armed, either alleged or confirmed? (Possession of a slingshot doesn’t count as armed in my personal point of view, but any information is useful.)”
I think this a good question and Nick has provided one answer.
Nick, I am interested in any details of the armed blackshirt, who was he? what arms? who was he associated with?
Meanwhile Nick implies that none of the other dead that he saw were armed, how many and who were they?
There were comments made in some of the video reports that “none” of the dead were armed (in those particular cases)
Presumably you can assume that the medicos, ambulance people and Journalists (except someone like Michael Yon?) that were shot were unarmed. The people shot at the temple seemed to be unarmed, at least the nurse.
I expect the government with its vast resources could compile this sort of detail but, unless they are collecting to be ready to know where they might be politically vulnerable, they are very selective in collecting and even more selective in publishing.
Good luck in getting more detailed information.
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Dear Human,
that’s strange. I’m with True Internet and it seems to be working fine.
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Yes, it is blocked here, I can confirm that too. But there are proxies for those that wish to continue this discussion. I think this thread has veered far from its topic – Nick’s experience being shot at – but I guess its all related to the bigger picture which many of you have been discussing. It does seem rather polarized to me, most people here are either pro- or anti-government. Surely its all a bit more complicated. I personally do not think the government has pursued a policy of shooting innocent, unarmed civilians, and there is a distinction between what they are ordered to do and what they do. That doesn’t make it right, but it helps to be aware of this before simple generalizations are given about the government. It seems that censorship has been a staple of most governments in such a time of unrest though, so I wouldn’t take this to mean the government must be guilty of shooting innocents and therefore are trying to cover up. It is a very sensitive issue and time. This is Asia. Thailand’s “democracy” is still fragile and young and in my view hasn’t really got off the ground yet. Let’s be aware of that and see that this whole mess is part of this growing period, bloody as it sometimes is. I’d like to get to the truth of the matter re. the Black Shirts since I think their links with the Red Shirts is rather important in assessing the authenticity of the movement. Maybe we can have a dedicated thread that invites people to post solid sources and evidence either way.
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Abhisit has said that of the 6 people shot at the temple, four were shot from a low level, implying “only” two were shot from above.
I wonder if this is the real picture, does the forensic result include recognition of the angle of the persons body when shot? Interesting to know how reliable this analysis would be and even more relevant is how accurate is Abhisit’s self-serving summary.
Another live question for me is the definition of “soldier”, ‘blackshirt”, “men in black” and other terms bandied around at the political and potentially at the legal level. I take some examples here primarily from practices that I understand applied in the Vietnam War times.
For example, when Suthep says “they were not soldiers”:
does he mean they were not people under the direct command (at the time) of a certain commander that is publicly admitted to be active in the field?
or might he mean they were under such direct command but they were designated special operatives on a deniable mission?
or he might mean they were under control of a different commander from the other soldiers on a secret mission and therefore deniable?
or, dare I say it, they were operating under direct orders from one or more of the top level elites at early morning meetings which cannot even be mentioned by Suthep at risk of lengthy prison term?
etc, etc
Given it appears that Anupong still denies there was (and is?) a secret rendition facility run for the US in Thailand even after it has been admitted by the US military its easy to believe that Suthep could be involved in semantic word games when answering questions put by the relatively naive public or its slightly less naive journalist and diplomatic representatives.
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The whole concept of “life fire” zones is legally questionable, but I guess if I was a soldier under attack I would have approved of it without a blink.
Reds in Nick’s case came under live fire while trying to set up a barricade. I think it wasn’t the first time the shots were fired in that area that day, how many “warnings” did the reds need?
What did soldiers think of setting up that barricade? Innocent and harmless? Should they have waited until people with M79s manned it? Molotov cocktails are not that pleasant either, and they can load ping-pong bombs into slingshots, too.
Reds were just asking to get shot, imo.
I believe there was an earlier incident, perhaps just minutes earlier, when reds tried to commandeer a truck there. What for? Trucks where earlier used to ram the troops, among other things. Soldiers shoot the tires. Then there was a guy who was asked to drive the truck but he refused, someone else volunteered and got shot immediately.
How many warning shots did that volunteer need?
Yes, the soldiers might have broken Abhisit stated rules of engagement here and there but if people were throwing ping pong bombs or molotov cocktails at me, for hours on end, I would eventually shoot back, quite possibly indiscriminately, at anything that moves, Abhisit and his rules can go to hell.
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BlackOnBlackIWantMyBabyBack
its interesting to see the email of your comment before it appears on the blog… so this comment on your comment might appear before yours is published (depending on moderation delay and recognition of order???)
I agree that the question of who the Black Shirts are, who they report to and their relationship with the Reds generally and UDD (a slightly smaller category) is important, it seems vitally important to the government as their case rests almost exclusively on their claim that the blacks are red related.
btw, I think its the military/top level elites/Prem(too old?) in charge and Abhisit/Suthep are the stories and excuses division, with some feedback effect on some decisions mainly from Suthep.
so the question is whether the military/top level elites “pursued a “policy” of shooting innocent, unarmed civilians”
and now the stories and excuse people are trying to provide cover
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BlackOnBlackIWantMyBabyBack #256
“Thailand’s “democracy” is still fragile and young and in my view hasn’t really got off the ground yet. ”
Just briefly, my comment above effectively says that Thailand is under a military/elites dictatorship with parliament providing a “play of Democracy” primarily for international consumption.
At this moment the possibility of democratic elections and acceptance of the result seems slim indeed.
The parliament censure debate is being live broadcast and there were snippets on twitter indicating a large number of Thai people were watching last night, perhaps to see/hear Jatuporn?
If so this could be a significant opportunity for some balancing Peu Thai/redshirt messages to be heard which are normally denied to Thai people and a boost for the possibility of improved democratic practice in Thailand.
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David Brown # 260.
It’s a far more disturbing reality to consider the black shirts ARE connected to the UDD than to blind oneself with these ‘conspiracy theories’ – which you seem very good at doing – of the contrary. Your ‘wishful thinking’ alone, which amongst other things, now (260) includes this notion they could perhaps be covert operatives obeying (in your words): “direct orders from one or more of the top level elites at early morning meetings” – is part of your fundamental hope they’re
some how connected with this government (in one form or another).
You also state “it seems vitally important to the government as their case rests almost exclusively on their claim that the blacks are red related”. But it seems more important to YOU to prove the contrary as YOUR case (the reds are pacifistic and democratic) rests almost exclusively on your claim the blacks AREN’T related to the reds.
As I said, I think the reality is far more sinister.
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BlackOnBlackIWantMyBabyBack #259.
It’s truly refreshing to read some evenly tempered reason. Thanks for that.
Some inflammatory rhetoric from the UDD leaders themselves that would seem to suggest the black shirts (and/or a violent/militant wing) ARE linked to the red movment.
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David Brown
Although I don’t agree with your premise that the Blackshirts were entirely unarmed, I would suggest there was not very many of them and whatever threat they posed was greatly overstated.
Ahbisit told us 500 armed dangerous terrorist were waiting to do battle a threat to the nation and monarchy, looking at the casualties this level of threat is not supported. 8 dead soldiers across the two months of protest. Five of these soldiers died on the 10th April, I believe they were all victims of the initial grenade attack which started the violence. Some have suggested this attack was part of an internal army feud or the grenade could have come from Sah Deangs ronin. Of the other 3 deaths, Priv Nongrit sala killed by freindly fire on 28th April, Sgt. Phongchalit Thipayanontakan killed on 17th May also friendly fire, Sgt. Anusit Chansaento on 20th May whom I think was shot with his own weapon as seen in video from TNN.
This means that from 11 April to 19 May, a period which saw the most prolonged fighting, these men in black killed nobody. Now there may be injured soldiers in hospital with wounds sustained in gun battles with Blackshirts, but if their were I am sure Suthep would be displaying photos of their gunshot wounds, so I take it from the silence that their are no soldiers with gunshot wounds.
There was of course a grenade attack on the 19th which injured a Canadian journalist called Chandler along with 3 soldiers. We are always told that these attacks are M79, but how, given the lack of forensic investigation, do we know they are not home made explosives. Just because Suthep and the nation keep repeating it does not make it true.
In fact the one forensic investigation we had, proved Suthep to be lying.
The Sala Daeng M79 attack now that is a strange one remember what Suthep told us “The M79 grenades were fired from behind the Rama 6 monument”, this was 3 hours after the grenade attack in a statement on ASTV. Also Deputy Bangkok Governor Thirachon Manomaipibul said video records from security cameras of the BTS’ Saladaeng station showed that m79 grenades were fired from the Lumpini Park. We still haven’t seen this video evidence.
Then we have Khunying MD Pornthip telling us in her report that the grenades were fried from inside Chulalongkorn hospital.
http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=255305050012
The same hospital that refused to treat police officers injured fighting the PAD in 2008.
Yesterday Suthep told us there were no soldiers on the BTS on the 19th may despite a multitude of video, photographic evidence and witness testimony contradicting this.
Also as the Bangkok pundit has pointed out he is even contradicted by his own troops
“Lt General Daopong Ratanasuwan, the Army’s assistant chief of staff for operations, said troops from the 1st Division, the King’s Guard, were stationed at Siam BTS Station on May 19. They were ordered not to move closer to the temple, which was about 300 metres away. He insisted the troops were at the spot all night and entered the temple the following morning (May 20) to help police send demonstrators back home.”
Suthep has consistently been found out quite blatantly lying through his teeth, how can we believe anything that comes out from the CRES.
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David Brown # 263.
You say: ‘my comment above effectively says that Thailand is under a military/elites dictatorship with parliament providing a “play of Democracy” ‘
Are you trying to tell everyone it’s ever been ever different – give or take (or replace) a few manifestations of the same thing??
I suppose you’re now going to try and tell us under Thaksin it was a democracy as opposed to the cleptocracy/plutocracy it really was (??)
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remember
Abhisit stated, Ithink to the Oxford union, that he entered politics to try and prevent what happened in 1992 and that itshould never ever again happen.
Nothing this man says can be believed or effectively the opposite is always true.
Please, please can the west wake up and deal withthese tyrants. Cut of the aid money. They siphon off 30%! We have to stop thinking of this state as a democracy. It’s like Iran it’s a theocracy. A theocracy for the rich.
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Nick
sorry. fantastic job as ever.
Be safe. We need you.
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doyle2499 # 266.
http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/tan/ViewData.aspx?DataID=1028735
(published a the day after your link was).
I’m no expert but there are any number of possible launching locations. 6-ish meters to the left of the Rama VI statue, is one of them, and also Chulalongkorn hospital. Do we know they were fired from only one location? There could have been more than on or tow operatives involved. There’s also the old Robinson’s building on the corner of Silom there, that car park, and the Dusit Thani hotel is also a possible for the BTS station hit.
But to the point. Just because nitrate traces were found on the 8th floor of the hospital, doesn’t mean they were government soldiers who launched the M-79′s. Many reds, it was known, often slept there and used the hospitals’ toilets.
It’s not that difficult to walk in there, (not dressed in red – or black – of course) conceal an M-79 launcher in a jacket (they’re not bazookers or RPG launchers), go up the stairs, go into the women’s toilets, lock the door and launch a grenade. Or indeed for the evidence to be planted there after wards.
Or even, why – when the UDD stormed the hospital to search it – they didn’t discover the damage to the room and the nitrate traces – surely that would have helped feed their propaganda machine.
I also can’t see the political advantage to Abhisit/Suthep for government soldiers to launch M-79′s into yellow supporters and commuters that night. In order to precipitate a crack down?
But that ‘crack down’ didn’t happen until mid-May! I don’t think it was on Abhisit’s agenda to have more bloody mayhem around him – it’s far too politically dangerous – & it seems this is exactly what he was trying to avoid. Hence his reluctance to forcibly disperse them & the road map proposal that soon followed etc etc.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know who owns the Dusit Thani Hotel?? Strange how that took a direct hit from 3 RPGs on the 17th May.
I suppose that was also government soldiers dressed in black who launched those from Lumpini park
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I am still on TRUE hi-speed and still able to access this post and the comments.
Strange, but TRUE.
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Am TRUE @ hi-speed also.
Perhaps the New Mandala people want to turn over a new leaf?
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Simonsays #226
Dr. Khunying something had something wrong about GT200 please check.
And if you have eye and don’t be to dumb please go to visit the place that Suthep told you that luanch from that’s place you will see a lot of thing that can be interrubt this bomb exp. bridge and sky walk and please check the range for M79 (if that’s be like Suthep said) and go to make meter to BTS station please.
Now just only this thing I’ll ask you again Who can responsibility on every dead people and what they’ve got from the fact. They want to re-election but they’ve got bullet and death if who had died be your friend or your family what is the fact and what do you think about this.
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And now they are making a big thing out of Burning of shopping malls with no prove of who burns central World and other places but there were many red shirt corpses burn in central world and now accusing red shirts as terroist, and they say nothing about the lost of almost a 100 lifes and 2000injured 38missing. AND it make me sad that their stratgy is working specially for people in bkk who claim themselves to be smarter than everyone else, and these people are laughing to see dead red shirt civilians.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGukyJ_sQC0&feature=related
biggest protestor gather in history of Thailand but got rejected by government forced to go home with dead family and friends and then called as terriost.
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UPDATE:
With the help of two Nation journalists I have managed to identify the man with the gut shot. His name was Channarong Polsrila, 45 years old. He died.
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Channarong Polsrila, R.I.P.you will be missed.
One day a statue will be erected in your honor.
And a memorial for the others who fought tyrany and for the right for the government that they elect to actually be allowed to hold power.
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Nick # 279 :
Well it’s a credit to The ( Royalist ) Nation that they helped you over this matter.
And probably a sign of the respect they have for you as a top-quality journalist, despite their paper’s different perspective from your own.
At least Bangkok is not yet so polarised that quality media professionals refuse to work together. Common ground gives cause for hope.
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“chris beale”:
It is a bit more complicated. The Nation and affiliated Thai language outlets are not a single entity, but there are many factions, dominating are the rabidly anti-Red and pro-government people in their offices. Nevertheless, there is a minority of journalists who still tries to report factually, regardless of political preferences, and despite strong pressure to follow the mainstream. The two who helped me there came from such a faction.
There are a small number of Thai journalists from many different newspapers who work very hard and are determined to follow up on the incidents, and continue to investigate them. They do know each other and help each other out, across affiliations to their respective newspapers, and often against the strong resistance of their colleagues and editors.
These journalists have my highest respect, their work is outstanding, their investigating capabilities are superb, and i personally have learned a lot from them. I very much enjoy working alongside with them.
There is one very nice aspect with Thai journalists in general – there is much collaboration going on. Colleagues always help each other out, compare notes, freely help with contacts and share information.
Unfortunately these qualities are often not reflected in the resulting articles, but this is more the problem of editorial office policies and political pressure than with the abilities of the working journos on the ground.
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Nation published the story today
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/06/24/national/Mystery-of-dads-death-solved-30132304.html
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I’m watching Nick’s interview in Kon-Chut-luek channel, I have to say I don’t really like the host.
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“While roughly pulling at the man, he screamed that he should be dead, and because he isn’t they have to take him to the hospital, and that he should die. He walked off“.
The Nation story seems to have left out that bit.
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Nick #282 :
Thanks very much for that information and perspective.
Good to read that Thai journalist are maintaining their high standards of integrity, and their typically Thai co-operative working practices – even if editorial standards seem to have declined and become more propagandist (this reversal of the opening up following May’92 first became very blatant during Thaksin’s premierships, it seems).
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Hi Nick,
Just see one video from Youtube the moment you took the picture of Mr.Channarong Polsrila at Gas station’s toilet. Might be helpful to you
Starting from 0.52
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux1-eGp287g&feature=related
YouTube – โดนยิงแล้วเข้าไปหลบในบ้าน.flv
โดย REDDINDANG | 1 ปีที่ผ่านมา |
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New Mandala readers will want to know that:
Read more here.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
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