Bangkok: This is a massacre

May 17th, 2010 by Anonymous · 100 Comments

Noam Chomsky once noted that when the Soviet Union sent troops into Afghanistan that at least one Soviet radio station announcer characterized the action as an invasion. He was courageous for making such a reasonable depiction of things. But for saying so, Soviet authorities promptly placed him into a psychiatric hospital. Chomsky argues that people in the Soviet Union could recognize an invasion when they saw one, but risked being put away for saying so publicly.

In contrast, no mainstream US media outlet in the 1960s ever suggested US involvement in Vietnam was an “invasion.” The thought was unimaginable.

The inability to use such an unpleasant term led to the death of at least a few million Vietnamese and more than 50,000 American soldiers. Necessarily coupled with the inability to imagine the act as an invasion was the construction of the North Vietnamese “communist terrorist.”

The same failure of courage and imagination now faces Thai society. Previously, the killing of at least 40 student protesters in October 6, 1976 was considered a “massacre,” as was the estimated 40 killed in May 1992 military suppression of protesters calling for the coup leader-cum-prime minister to step down.

Since 10 April , more than 50 Thai protesters, many bare-handed or armed with bamboo sticks, have been killed. A number of prominent international journalists in Bangkok have themselves witnessed unarmed protesters shot by Thai security forces, both on 10 April or over the past few days, especially in the “live-ammunition zones” established by the government.

It is true that there was a mysterious black-clad force shooting back at the Thai military on 10 April 2010, leading to the death of five soldiers. And there may be other forces at play in the killings of the past few days. But these factors do not change the basic contours of this struggle: the main body of protesters adhere to non-violence, are unarmed or dramatically under-armed against military and police forces that have been using live ammunition against them. If the red shirts are armed and dangerous, you wouldn’t know it from the number of casualties: in the last two days, 29 protesters have been killed, and zero army and police personnel. This suggests disproportionate, excessive, and deadly force used by security forces in dispersing the protesters. But this skewing of numbers can’t last long: the situation created by the government has created has opened the doors wide to extremists on both sides.

The definition of massacre is: “The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.” Let’s be clear about what is happening on the streets of Bangkok: this is a massacre. Perhaps not a single act or instance, but when taken as a whole, the military and police operations against the red shirt protesters have killed up to this point more than any crackdown by previous Thai military regimes in the past 50 years. It is a slowly unfurling, staggered massacre that promises to soar. The Thai government has promised to bring an end to the crisis by escalating this slow-motion massacre.

If this is not a massacre, then when will it be? At 80 killings? At 100?

This massacre, though, differs from previous Thai massacres in a number of ways. First, there has been no outrage over the deaths. Governments have hesitated condemning the Thai government. Human rights organizations have urged both sides not to use violence and return to the negotiating table. In 1976, it was largely urban students killed. There was an international outcry. In 1992, it was urban populations killed. There was a domestic and international outcry. But this time, there is no outrage, but rather a grim celebration of a show of force and getting those rural people and terrorists out of Bangkok, at any cost.

Regardless there are Thai citizens being killed indiscriminately. If one believes that the conduct of the Thai government is acceptable, then at least call it for what it is: a massacre. One should not console ourselves by saying that the red shirts had been warned by the government of their impending doom, or that there are certain factions of the red shirts killing other red shirts, or that these people are “terrorists.” Understand and accept that it will be a continuing massacre.

For those who cannot accept the possibility of a massacre, for those who choose to error on the side of caution on the chance that much of the killing is a slaughter of the innocents, then it is time to show express outrage and moral revulsion. It is time to focus on the responsibility of the Abhisit Vejjajiva government. Whether intentional or due to the carelessness or lack of intelligence on the part of the government in deciding to move against protesters on 10 April 2010, the Abhisit government is ultimately morally and legally responsible. The dead deserve their day in court to confront their killer. If the Abhisit government cannot begin to figure out who was responsible for these deaths, it should resign so that a non-interested one can.

The deaths of score protesters that night somehow were presented as proof of “terrorists” and justified their killings. In the last few days, the indiscriminate killing is justified because there are supposedly “500 terrorists” hiding within the main body of protesters. As a protest leader has said, such a statement is tantamount to the advance issuing of 500 death certificates of protesters, “terrorists” or not.

This state of affairs, this eager acceptance of massacre, should and cannot be acceptable to any dignified and democratic society.

Tags: Abhisit · Thailand · UDD

100 responses so far ↓

1 LesAbbey // May 17, 2010 at 3:18 pm

The problem is Anonymous that no matter how you spin it, the UDD is not a non-violent movement. You know this and you also know that their leadership has been trying to provoke just such an outcome for almost two months. It just becomes propaganda when you post stuff like this.

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2 Jim Taylor // May 17, 2010 at 3:25 pm

and sadly we see the failure of civil society in Thailand aligned with DP-amaat-military to be effective or to remain impartial. Such leaders need to be named: Take the National Human Rights Commission of Thailand (NHRC) a clear mouthpiece for the government given its control by the amaat and fervent anti-Thaksinites. As Ji has noted, Dr Tajing Siripanit, a commissioner from the NHRC, stated on NBT television on 4th April 2010 that the military-backed government “would be justified in using force” against the peaceful pro-democracy Red Shirt protestors “because they were disrupting shopping” in the centre of Bangkok . Sad to say an anthropologist and former colleague Amara Pongsapich, NHRC Chairperson and establishment elite, even encouraged people in Bangkok to sue the Red Shirts for disruption and violation of their [shopping?] rights (no mention of the unarmed Reds’ rights to demonstrate against a dictatorial state, or of the violence caused to so many well armed thugs among Yellow Shirts supported by the military since 2006) . It is clear that civil society has failed to remain impartial in Thailand or to be trusted to resolve the crisis.

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3 David // May 17, 2010 at 3:25 pm

All the red shirts have to do to avoid getting shot at is to go home. I live a few 100 metres from the Dusit Thani Hotel, and I would hardly call firing 3 rpgs at it as an action by ‘unarmed protesters. This is an action by a bunch of violent thugs and as far as I am concerned the sooner the army kills every single one of them the better.

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4 Kit // May 17, 2010 at 3:26 pm

Twisting words is not a good way to make an argument. A massacre is a mass killing that takes place at one time. No matter how you try to massage the word to fit this situation, it is the wrong word.

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5 JohnH // May 17, 2010 at 3:29 pm

A carefully crafted but disingenious smoke screen.

You labour to balance your commentary, but you purposely fail to mention the hundreds of people who disappeared in previous massacres in Thailand. Recall the Red Gaurs, bodies in barrels and the rest of the sickening , ”…killing (of) a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.”

If you wish to number crunch to make your point, at least use those figures to enhance your argument, rather than selectively use those past events to bench mark what is happening now.

Some red shirts do have weapons and are using them.

My view? An unholy mess, as usual in Thailand, and one that does not bear any neat buttonholing or convenient definition.

The government have just announced a deadline for the protesters to leave Ratchaprasong by 3pm. Get your clicker ready.

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6 In Town // May 17, 2010 at 3:29 pm

Actually, they are a non-violent movement. That’s what they say and that is what they practice.

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7 Pharris // May 17, 2010 at 3:37 pm

Maybe some levity is warranted here. Maybe people aren’t calling the actions of the government in recent days a massacre because a good number of people see some justification in the actions. I see it this way: a bunch of out of town people come to my city and disrupts the traffic, business, and general merriment of my neighbors. I want them to leave so I call in the police. They’re useless so I call in the military. I’m patient and give them TWO MONTHS to leave and threaten action if they don’t. They don’t listen and when I attempt to forcibly remove them, they shoot back. I understand now these guys mean business, so I bring out the heavy equipment. I surround them and cut off their supplies. Feeling choked, elements of them attack, I return fire with fire. I make reasonable accomodation for those who want to leave to do so safely. And for those who decide to stay and fight, I’ll fight because it’s within my rights to return my city to a normalcy and peace it enjoyed before these rabble rousers came to town. I understand they have grievances that may be legitimate but what does that have to do with me and my livelihood? They imposed themselves on me and my city and they need to be removed. Maybe this is how many Bangkok residents feel about this whole situation and to them the actions of the government have been justified. The deaths have been quite unfortunate but how would you deal with squatters who make themselves at home in your backyard and refuse to move for over two months?

You could layer on all the politics and theorizing you want on what’s occurring but for many it may be just a practical matter of returning their city to normalcy by whatever means necessary under the law. Call it whatever you want and use it for whatever purpose it serves you but recognize there are those who view these events very differently. And their view is just as valid as yours.

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8 BB // May 17, 2010 at 4:01 pm

The problem is that no matter how UDD is or is not non-violence. Bangkok people already called them as “terrorist” due to influence of mass media. All mass media (government mass media) represented and tried to accuse UDD as “terrorist” , by the way they read the news, they lead the thoughts of people who listen to the new to hate UDD and to think that UDD is terrorist who hate our King.

At my workplace, everyday I listen to my friends who always read the news from manager.com (the web site that support PAD) and they accuse and express their hatred against UDD everyday. They said that all red shirts should be killed because they do not love our King and they said that government is right. Most of them listen to Thai media only, some of them read international news, but from Reuter or CNN sometimes.

UDD or any group that against current government cannot win if they do not know the way to make mass media in Thailand tell the truth. Mass media has the most influence to Bangkok people now.

However, no matter how long it take. I still support your opinion that the situation in Bangkok is a massacre. and I totally agree which your last paragraph : “This state of affairs, this eager acceptance of massacre, should and cannot be acceptable to any dignified and democratic society.”

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9 Srividya // May 17, 2010 at 4:07 pm

Thai PBS just announced then death of Seth Daeng.

My heart goes to his daughter and family.

Speechless.

Gov. may clear the protesters this afternoon, all children, women and elderly are told to go out the area by 3 pm.

Do you know that there is no free press in Thailand? Government controls almost all medias and dictates the stories.

Thanks to the advance of IT, Thais are able to know true stories through internet and international news agencies. Though gov. blocks almost all political websites and blogs, they can’t stop the hunger of people- hunger for information. The more they block, the more we want to know. Thanks to website like NM.

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10 Ricefield Radio // May 17, 2010 at 4:10 pm

Two things. I don’t see it as a massacre as much as the start of a genocide. It’s obvious from comments and actions that the dark skinned ones should be put down.

Secondly, those that say the Reds are armed and shooting at troops. Show me the evidence don’t believe the Post, Nation or the Government. I talk to at least a dozen jurnos and photogs that are in and around the red zone, every day, and to a man or woman they say the reds do not have war weapons. So show me the evidence show me the pictures because all I have seen is Dead Thais laying on the pavement with no weapons anywhere in sight.

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11 SergieZ // May 17, 2010 at 4:12 pm

Why do you Americans hate the Righteous Kings so much? Because they corrode your certainty that you HAVE to engage in aggressions and backstabbing to succeed in life?

Anybody called your own unprovoked aggressions in Afghanistan and Iraq and mass murder of women and children with your own patented “area bombing” thecnique “invasions”? Is there a single one left among you who is NOT for sale?

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12 JohnH // May 17, 2010 at 4:17 pm

The government has just repeated the deadline for the protesters to leave Ratchprasong by 3pm.

English subs. too.

1. Safe passage home for those who do leave.

2. Those who don’t will get an automatic 2 years in prison.

3. The area is not safe due the terrorists there who wish to injure and kill.

A serious warning.

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13 gwendo // May 17, 2010 at 4:18 pm

It seems to me a lot of people are now forgetting that we are talking about human lives.
Whatever it is that the red shirts want, whatever the degree of legiticamcy of what they are asking for, whatever the legitimacy of those who have been disturbed in their livelihood and want them to go home, we should never forget that we are now talking about some human lives.
Some red shirts might be violent, but most of the dead victims did not carry weapon and had committed for their biggest crime a declared illegal rally in Bangkok.
This kind of crime does not bear death penalty, except in some of the heaviest dictatorship of this world.
Someone is not legitimate in killing a squater more than he is at shooting a protester.

We will have to realize that somehow, there is a need for debate in Thailand because different people are seeing things differently, and debate will not arise through guns, it can only arise through democratic elections and campaigns.

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14 Andy // May 17, 2010 at 4:34 pm

Good article. Automatic weapons and snipers against sling shots, tires and bang fai rockets. It’s a massacre in slo mo. Does live fire zone mean shoot who-ever you like? seems so. The Army said they’d only shoot at those with weapons. Not so. And the snipers who took out non-combatants…who were they and what were their orders? One guy shot on his balcony on 27th floor. Do the reds have high ground and army kit?….most likely not.
Is this a false flag op? Shoot some innocents and blame it on the terrorists?

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15 Anonymous // May 17, 2010 at 4:39 pm

Given some of the comments, there is no wonder that Thailand is so divided. The idea that the UDD is bothering “them” in “their” city would be laughable if not so seriously misconstrued. No wonder rural folk are so upset, with attitudes like this. Actually, given this sort of attitude, the UDD has done a good job in helping restrain this very justified anger…

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16 David Brown // May 17, 2010 at 4:40 pm

how western governments handle protests
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/1b6c4l

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17 Daren // May 17, 2010 at 4:48 pm

I disagree with the analogy of Soviets in Afghanistan or Americans in Vietnam. While it is suggestively provocative, evoking feelings of colonialist resentment, it mistaken.

The red shirts are Thais who have broken Thai law by camping out in the middle of city. They may have legitimate grievances, but this doesn’t change the fact that their actions are illegal and damaging.

The force of the army has not been applied indiscriminately. Those protesters who fling rocks and petrol bombs at security forces know they are playing a dangerous game. People have already been killed on both sides; grenades and RPGs have been used. And it is incorrect to argue that the disparity in force is somehow unfair, as you suggest by saying the protesters are ‘dramatically under-armed against military and police forces’. This isn’t supposed to be a fair fight. The reds are breaking the law and must disperse. It is the job of the police and military to enforce the law of the state and provide security. As David commented earlier, the reds can end this situation by ceasing to break the law and going home.

The military has shown restraint. The government has shown restraint. These protests have gone on since March. A diplomatic solution was attempted before April 10 and again thereafter. By refusing to accept what was essentially what they wanted, a new election, the reds have chosen a path leading towards a forceful resolution.

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18 KM // May 17, 2010 at 4:53 pm

I read this site fairly regularly, and would read it more often, if not for its principal authors’ enthusiasm for hyperbole and thinly guised “I feel for my [insert whatever fashionable poltically correct term for research subject you prefer here], I really, really do” shtick. There are more helpful ways to show your appreciation for extracting the information you need to get your Ph.D.’s and bolster your professional credibility.

I mean, come on, guys–what’s happening here deserves a more robust analysis than labeling it a massacre and calling for us to join in you enlightened moral outrage. How about instead of being the moral watchdog of a foreign nation you cast some light on the socio-cultural background of the crisis in a less overtly partisan way?

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19 barnsybkk // May 17, 2010 at 5:01 pm

I see a general Thai indifference towards massacres by all and sundry. Even during the “shinning light “glory days, under Dear Leader Square Head ,the champion of democracy.

No one seemed to concerned about his outrageous declarations before the so called “War on Drugs”, 2,500 dead.

The massacre of over 100!! ‘UNARMED’ demonstrators in Tak Bai ,who some how got lost for 6 hours on the way to the base?( eerily similar to the end of the Great Escape ). Firing TANK rounds into a mosque months after the previous event and the 4,ooo odd souls who have lost their life down South since 2004.

Don’t even get me started on Taksins culpability in relation to tsunami warnings and the 7,500 lives lost as a result!

So that brings up around 14,000 dead under the champion of democracy!!

Even if you don’t believe muzzling Khun Smith was a criminal act, denying the other 6,500 deaths is up there with Holocaust deniers!

Who was it that got the reds out? Who’s every word did they hang on,” is he going to call?”, “where is he?” etc etc…

The same man who who has just enlisted a DC beltway lobbyist who has the audacity to call for investigations into the recent events. I don’t recall any investigations or prosecution resulting from the above events!

All massacres including the current need to be investigated and those on both/all sides, be held accountable. But sadly TIT ,we all know no heads will role. That miss fortune is reserved for the misguided souls out on the streets fighting for the return of the man with the most blood on his hands!! Sad but true….

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20 JohnH // May 17, 2010 at 5:12 pm

All right.

The government is back on TV explaining in great detail what is happening and what is going to happen.

They are laying out the consequences.

Does this sound like a government intent on massacring its own people, Psych. Ops double speak (aimed at Thailand and international media), or a serious attempt to get this to stop by cranking up the pressure and get the red shirts to leave.

A group of black dressed armed men have been seen in Ratchaprasong, so the army is moving to engage this group. Details from PBS, so make what you will of that; however, don’t dismiss this as propaganda. We are not there.

Shots fired at Shin Tower 3 PBS offices. What’s that about?

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21 SmithJones // May 17, 2010 at 5:19 pm

More evidence it is the government/army who are shooting at journalists and reporters.

See tweet below.

It is obvious the government wants all reporters out, then it can implement a massacre of all. Whilst reporters and journalists are there they will have to hold back and simply sniper shoot the odd person to keep the fear levels up.

Hopefully the reporters can stay safe and stay around there, for if the army/government tries to massacre then it must be caught on film for the whole world to see, and for the International Courts to take action against the present government and army leaders.

http://twitter.com/photo_journ

Sniper round that wizzed past me 3 minutes ago from direction of CP Hotel. Only army/gov targeting media http://twitpic.com/1ojdtb
5 minutes ago via Seesmic

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22 StanG // May 17, 2010 at 5:21 pm

Automatic weapons and snipers against sling shots, tires and bang fai rockets.

It’s a suicidal mission, not a massacre.

They could have brought chessboards and then complained that the military is not playing by the rules.

Don’t forget that the army hasn’t even tried to breach the main site yet, soldiers were simply defending their own positions, and even after declaring “life fire zones” the army didn’t advance any further, only maintained safe distance between themselves and newly sprang barricades.

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23 Arthur McBride // May 17, 2010 at 5:31 pm

You can’t paint all the “protesters” with a single brush. In fact, the term it self is misleading. The protesters around the Rajaprasong stage appear to be mostly unarmed and conducting their demonstrations relatively peacefully. Yet some of the people fighting the military in the streets have firearms, inlcuding not only assault rifles but grenades and rocket launchers– photos and videos prove this. Others have slingshots, molotov cocktails, rocks and sticks, which are also dangerous weapons not to be discounted. These are facts. Anyone who continues to describe the Red Shirts as nonviolent or unarmed does so in denial or ignorance of the facts.

The government ordered the military to open up those parts of Bangkok that have been closed down by protesters for 2 months. When the army arrived, it met resistance: barricades, burning tires, M79 grenades, and vehicles that had been commandeered and set alight. Indeed, the army has been shooting at those people who have been fighting them in the streets. The army has not been, to my knowledge, shooting at the more peaceful demonstrators at Rajaprasong. I haven’t seen the army shooting anyone who was listening to a speech, singing a song, clapping a clapper, or other activities that can accurately be termed “demonstration.” They’ve been fighting with people who have left the demonstration sites and provoked violence, using weapons both crude and deadly, and setting huge fires on public roads that have in some cases spread to nearby houses and buildings. Frankly, if this were happening anywhere in the world, the public would expect the state to offer protection. In the tension of the moment, most would feel that the state needs to stop the provocateurs, using deadly force if needed. It’s not a pretty picture, but it is true.

However, it is entirely possible–probable,even–that soldiers have used excessive force and even targeted some of the wrong people. This is a characteristic of all armies everywhere when they face resistance. Such incidents themselves should be exposed and investigated, and those responsible must face justice.

One can recognize the duty of the military to protect the public but still hold it accountable for abuses. Likewise, honest observers can acknowledge the legitimacy of some aspects of the Red Shirt movement, but still recognize its flaws and untruths.

Just because the army has been using force, that doesn’t make all the “protesters” innocent or non-violent. While one might try to dismiss the “men in black” as a fringe movement not under direct control of the UDD Leaders, the fact is that they are acting on behalf of the UDD against the state. Nattawut has tripped himself up by simultaneously disavowing any connection to the fighters and offering to pull them back. Also from the stage, UDD leaders have used violent rhetoric, including putting a bounty on the head of Abhisit and Suthep and threatening violence.

Foreign journalists have been quick to bond with the Red Shirts, whose status as a David-vs-Goliath underdog make for a good story and captivating photos. Plus, one tends not to write in favor of those who are shooting at you, and I’m sure that the army has shot at journalists who have taken cover with the rioters. One example is the blog getting a lot of attention from Nick Nostitz, who wrote very honestly about his harrowing experience escaping from army fire. However, he was with a group of men in a declared “live-fire” zone who took refuge in a petrol station. From the point of view of the army, a group of men–perhaps armed, perhaps not–refusing to leave a combat zone and running into a petrol station represents a really serious threat. No one should be surprised that weapons were fired. And the fact that some of the soldiers were gruff and impolite when they caught up to the group is again another unfortunate reality of soldiers everywhere.

The conflict is, in part, an armed confrontation between the state and armed non-state groups, whose activities are illegal. The state sees its role as protecting the public from lawlessness. The non-state combatants seem to see their role as using force to inflict injury on what they call an illegitimate government, and to force the public to accept their own claims to legitimacy.

These events occur in historical context. Thailand has survived until now with a feudal social system, a deeply skewed economy, a profoundly dysfunctional legal system, sham parliaments, weak leadership, and an overall lack of equality and justice. Many of those who have benefited from the disparity are largely apathetic to the plight of those who have not. Perhaps some are even hostile, afraid of losing their privilege in a more open society. And certainly there are other Thai citizens who will call the demonstrators uneducated or backward. But the existence of these inequities and prejudices in society do not automatically equate to some desire to kill of northeasterners.

This is not a massacre or a genocide. Such talk is exaggerated, polemical, and counterproductive to any reasoned understanding of what is happening.

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24 SmithJones // May 17, 2010 at 5:38 pm

http://twitter.com/KhunPleum

“If the red shirts have tanks they would simply be able to carry out a coup against the government, like the way the army carried out a coup.

The most violent act of them all was the military coup in 2006. That was state-sanctioned violence against an entire people.

If there is a lesson to be learned here it is that never again do you remove a popular democratically leader by force. Reds run wild because they don’t know any better but they have been victimized by state-sanctioned violence, censorship, repression, propaganda, for 5 years.

5 years of discontent results in this. Anti-Red must understand that origination of conflict is PAD, Manager, Coup, Judiciary Activism”

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25 neptunian // May 17, 2010 at 5:56 pm

It simply amazing that PADs supporters who read this site would even blame Thaksin for Tsunami’s death!

That my friends is the kind of diatribe that moved so many “foreign” readers to not buy your “arguments”. Furthermore, please do not quote Thanong – he has more imagination than Asimov.

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26 Marcus Bennington // May 17, 2010 at 6:21 pm

In response to KMs comment…

The polemics of the moment inform tomorrow’s interpretation of history. Is the crackdown in Bangkok a “massacre”, murder, or a neccessary price to pay for law and order? This distinction couldn’t be more important and it has implications for Thailand’s future and government conduct beyond Thailand’s borders.

If Thailand and the world community view this week’s crackdown as a “neccessary show of force” to subdue “terrorists,” Thailand and the world once again condone the dehumanization of people in moral preparation for inhumane violence.

You are suggesting that oppostion to asymetric warfare and deliberate dehumanization of political opponents is only recorded to “bolster [...] professional credibility.”

To which I respond, thank you for not contributing your own socio-cultural analysis of anything. We are better for it.

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27 Thomas Hoy // May 17, 2010 at 6:36 pm

Barnsybkk is right. There is a tolerance of massacres. The Tak Bai massacre was widely seen on the web and CD and shown on TV for a short time if I remember correctly.

I went to the demonstration against the massacre expecting thousands to be there. There were about 2-3 hundred of us. Hugely outnumberred by the police.

But the current rulers and the military junta are responsible for not prosecuting those crimes. When the yellows demonstrated we heard (not very much but some) about this and the war on drugs rightly raised as evidence of Thaksin’s culpability. Surayud even set up a little pretend committee and shed a few tears and wrang his hands about it.

But what happened? For Thaksin, one lousy charge of signing off on his wife’s land purchase. And much more fuss about his tax avoidance than mass murder. The middle class is vastly more offended by threats to their finances than by a few killings of unimportant people.

What happened? To charge Thaksin, you would have to charge the army leaders who were on the spot and the police who were doing the killing in the war on drugs and those who gave orders and organized coverups.

And that just doesn’t happen here.

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28 Hla Oo // May 17, 2010 at 6:51 pm

I couldn’t believe that a basically peaceful Thai could take aim a sniper rifle at another Thai and easily pull the trigger. Even a battle-hardened Burmese soldier has trouble doing the same thing.

Use of the term massacre is truly justified once a group of heavily armed troops started firing at their own people, unarmed or not, deliberately and indiscriminately.

In a civilized society the riot police are there to quell the civilian unrest as the Greeks have recently shown to the world. Once the army is involved the large scale loss of lives is a guaranteed outcome, and the unrest becomes a civil war with dire consequences.

I pray for the fellow Thais that their society will not fall apart as the neighboring society of their long suffering brothers and sisters in Burma!

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29 Bangkok Ray // May 17, 2010 at 6:57 pm

I’ve recently heard that twenty five bodies are being stored in a temple and can attest to the fact that no ambulances or emergency vehicles are being allowed into the Rangnam area. The fact is that it is a massacre. Every afternoon since Friday I’ve been hearing rifle fire. I don’t think these are warning shots. I’ve seen massive areas of congealing blood on the corner of Rangnam road which would suggest otherwise. When you arm a bunch of teenagers and instill hatred there is no chance for intelligent dialogue. Those people who call for the reds to be shot should see unarmed people taking fire. Don’t sit in your arm chairs, come down to Rangnam and see the bloodshed, perhaps then you would change your mind about the justification of armed violence. I’m not saying I agree entirely with the reds but this is too much.

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30 Tiptop // May 17, 2010 at 7:00 pm

StanG it is a suicidal mission AND a massacre.
So do you recon the reds should have been better armed ?

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31 Christoffer Larsson // May 17, 2010 at 7:17 pm

UDDP is non-violent in the same sense as PAD is. They are only non-violent as long as not getting attacked. But if getting attacked they fight back with whatever means they have.

But as in any large crowd, you will find some people more prone to violence than others. In the end, both UDDP and PAD consists of individuals, who may take actions that are not in line with the policy of the organization. Saying that reds are bad is a little bit like saying that men, blacks, Muslims or Republicans are bad.

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32 K.M. // May 17, 2010 at 7:22 pm

Mr. Bennington– the “polemics of the moment” are precisely that-polemics, which, as I’m sure you’re aware, means “strong written or verbal attacks on someone or something.” As your polemical response being another token of the type amply illustrates, polemics are a poor guide to forming carefully reasoned and thoughtful reactions to history’s vicissitudes.

Furthermore, it’s misleading to suggest that I imply that we ought to somehow dehumanize anyone involved in this crisis, much less to callously ignore or feebly attempt to justify human suffering. My point was that intellectuals and dilettantes alike would do well to avoid settling on morally charged judgements until the dust has at least cleared, and we have more relevant facts at hand to base our opinions on.

Clearly, I was not in any way suggesting that “oppostion to asymetric warfare and deliberate dehumanization of political opponents is only recorded to “bolster [...] professional credibility.”–rather, I was pointing out that claims to authoritative interpretations of current events are linked to the political economy of academia in ways that aren’t transparently simple, but rather are fraught with ethical dilemmas whose resolution requires something a bit more nuanced than righteous indignation or picking a side in someone else’s fights.

But then, judging, condemning, and impassioned polemics garner more attention than balanced efforts to reach a more complete understanding.

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33 Mr. V // May 17, 2010 at 7:44 pm

So many comments and examples of “what if outsiders came into your town, what you would do”. Since when red shirts are plain outsiders? Is it so hard to get in your head that there is darn plenty Bangkokians there?

I did discuss this with some friends, this effect of “us” and “them”. Think little what it reminds you of? Most violent conflicts! This sort of “division” is always necessary to create violent combat situation AND to “justify”action. This division is typical for racism also and hate speech. Think all those “goons” and “charlies” killed in WWII and Vietnam War. Or Rwanda and the tribal separation. Or when soldiers speak about those “rag heads” when they shoot them or “jews that suck blood of baby muslims” and so on and on.

All these commentators, foreign and Thai alike, are doing exactly that: using partly or fully this as justifying events with the “us” vs “them” line. Many Thais go as far as tell red shirts that “if they don’t like Thailand and the King, they can go to some other country” or by simply calling and picturing them as buffaloes, like in Manager magazine or multiple Thai websites. Or as dogs. All these are very strong Thai racist and degrading methods. Nigger anyone? This is equal to any racial slur and slander and pure racism.

I am no psychologist and have not read about combat and military psychology, but I get a feeling that this sort of division is sort of necessary “protection mechanism” that needs to be used to make people able to kill and be violent against other people.

Any opinions?

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34 Wang Dong // May 17, 2010 at 8:18 pm

Mr. V

I think you got it spot on. The way the Reds are referred to as a whole on YouTube and Facebook is similar to the way people refer to “Nips”, “Gooks”, and “Sandniggers” in wars past and present. One has to wonder what has driven people to such levels of hatred usually reserved for foreign enemies.

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35 StanG // May 17, 2010 at 8:25 pm

One key word in definitions of massacre is “unnecessary”.

Shooting people who relentlessly attack army positions, even with crude weapons, hardly qualifies.

After the first day, after the protesters stopped advancing, casualties have been rising rather slowly – about five per day. Some of these killings could have been unnecessary or indiscriminate but with five deaths per day, at the hands of thousands of troops spread over large, disconnected areas you can’t talk about massacre either.

Take Nick’s case, for example. It would have been a massacre if the soldiers killed everyone hiding at the gas station.

I’m not saying every shot was fully justified either, and some soldiers could have been trigger happy, but that happens when you piss off people with guns. Investigate them, by all means, but also be realistic about capabilities of the legal system.

For now, unlike Tak Bai, there are no specific accusations against any particular soldiers, snipers or units committing any specific crimes.

I’d suggest people should start with questions about “life firing zones” and see if the army can justify that policy from their tactical perspectives. It has been already rescinded, afaik.

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36 JohnH // May 17, 2010 at 8:29 pm

barnsybkk’s comments – among – others on the Tak Bai killings (19) seem to have attracted a significant disapproval rating, yet those asserting recent events as a massacre are doing rather well.

Tak Bai was a massacre, as were the killings at Krue Se mosque.

Words do have a habit of getting in the way of what we want to say. Unfortunately, you can’t always expect people to correctly discrimate between their semantic value or application, and, therefore, understand how to use them correctly.

Perhaps, I’m being a little unfair. I’m sure the hysterical, misguided polemical comments we see on here from time to time have, indeed, been very carefully selected by their authors.

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37 StanG // May 17, 2010 at 8:31 pm

Just saw this – while we argue about massacres, reds are putting their own children up on the barricades.

http://twitpic.com/1ojv9w

http://twitpic.com/1ojv07

Does the father of this child feels like he is living through a massacre?

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38 LiesFrom Bangkok // May 17, 2010 at 9:25 pm

The derogatory way by which some commenters and many people in Bkk refer to the Red Shirts suggests, that they might be happy with the idea to further develop Nathan Myhrvold’s “Mosquito-zapper” into a “Red Shirt Zapper” – David, and others: wouldn’t that be great?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcwBH_Uevxo

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39 barnsybkk // May 17, 2010 at 9:50 pm

Neptunian#25 as a member of the Australian Republican Movement I’m far from an ideal PAD supporter / apologist! Just because I’m not rapped up in “YOUR” revolution please don’t typecast me.

I’d be very surprised to find active foreign PAD operatives on this site. Just because myself and a hand full of others blame Taksin for squandering the hope of genuine democracy offered in the 1997 constitution( he chose one party rule, re Singapore/ Malaysia) does not make us Yellow Royalist, heaven forbid!!

My linking of Taksin and the tsunami stems from an event that happened 6months before the devastation of boxing day. On this occasion Taksin made it very clear his thoughts on Tsunami warnings and there effect on tourism. Sadly he saw Dr.Smith as the little boy who cried wolf!

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40 JohnH // May 17, 2010 at 9:53 pm

How did the petrol tanker currently parked in Bon Kai get there? And who is firing what at it to set it alight? And why?

Channel 3 live now. No it’s not a fake/ set up. It’s real.

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41 Mr. V // May 17, 2010 at 10:00 pm

Agreed on StanG and some others about this is not massacre. This is killing people with army breaking it’s own ROE regularly. But not massacre in sense of Tiananmen square.

ps. Looking at the definition here for massacre, was Tak Bai a massacre because after all they did not intend to hurt them, they were in custody and some people made very bad decisions? And Krue Se was because it included shooting inside a confined space. Not trying to flame here.

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42 Leeyiankun // May 17, 2010 at 10:13 pm

StanG, may be to him, he feels that leaving his child as an orphan is a horrible thing to do in this HATE infested society. May be he’s right, but I’m not approving it.

But you can understand him somewhat. In this state, this is NOT the kind of country I want my child to grow up in.

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43 Leeyiankun // May 17, 2010 at 10:14 pm

Mr.V, so it’s not a massacre on the point of a technicality?

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44 somsri // May 17, 2010 at 10:19 pm

If Apisit would be more patient, we could have avoided these bloodsheds. Last week, they were close to making a deal but Apisit gave the reds a sudden deadline and then abruptly closed in on them with military force. The use of force has been out of proportion. Now, Bangkok is at war less so because of the red shirt movement but more because of the military actions. Apisit is bringing the country down and he has to be responsible for it. Violence is never an answer to conflicts. I really feel saddened by this tragedy. No words can describe the pains of many Thais, including myself, being under the nightmares of these few days.

Please, can someone helps stop this!!!

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45 Leeyiankun // May 17, 2010 at 10:19 pm

JohnH, last songkran, it was widely believed to be Newin’s crownies is behind that Gas truck outside of Dindaeng. This might be another one of his plots yet again.

Newin is a thug, yes. But he’s a very experience thug.

BTW, banks are closed early, with rumors that a lot of ppl are withdrawing cash to stockpile food&water. Or it was closed because the gov had promised to give 2.2 hundred billion baht in funding to the military, and they want it sooner than later, and this is causing cash problems for a lot of bank.(unconfirmed)

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46 xandor // May 17, 2010 at 10:49 pm

At first I accepted the enthusiasm of the reds; saw the essential non-violence – 300m fom my apt.

But the fortifications (not to mention the elaborate logistics) told me quickly that legitimate aspirations were being hijacked by the big money that could afford an almost 3-month camping trip for 50k people.

with the addition of the ‘tough guys’ swaggering aroung in black,
this completed the picture for me.

it’s hard to imagine a lotta folks
abandoning che guevara theatre to
return home and run a campaign.

I can well imagine the yellows campaign posters – a press photo of UDD violence -with slogan ‘vote UDD’ for a prosperous/stable Thailand.’

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47 Simon // May 18, 2010 at 12:36 am

It is true that the majority of ‘red shirt’ protestors have not used violence. The tragedy of the situation is that their leadership actively incites violence and tolerates and shelters an armed wing among their ranks that use it. The 10 million other residents of Bangkok cannot tolerate ongoing grenade attacks and shootings associated with this group.

The author clearly has no idea about the extent of the violence by this armed wing which has plagued the country for the last 2 years.Targets have included the courts that dissolved Mr Thaksins party on two occasions for electoral fraud, the bank that froze his assets pending his trial for abuse of office, the Electoral Commission, the opposition party headquarters, the former leader of PAD ‘yellow shirts’, a fuel depo and a large crowd of civilians waiting to get the skytrain home after work, among many others.

Currently, the armed wing of the protestors is using M79 grenades against police, soliders and civilian targets on a daily basis. Last night there was an RPG attack against the Dusit Thani hotel, the night before reports of mortar rounds were falling on Sala Daeng. Yes, the soliders are afraid and yes they are defending themselves, should we blame them? Current public opinion polls in Bangkok support the crackdown, that’s how the residents feel about it.

The allegation that Thai citizens are being killed indiscriminantly is patently false. On 10 April the army tried to disperse the protestors using *riot gear only*. They were met with gunfire and grenades. That is why they now carry weapons.

If you have no knowledge of what is happening on the ground and can’t be bothered to educate yourself, why write uninformed articles about it? People are dying here, you think it is a joke? Do you have any clue how many people died under the Thaksin administration? Try Googling ‘extra judicial killings Thaksin’. There’s your massacre.

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48 Norwichman // May 18, 2010 at 12:59 am

What I can say ??? it is because soldier corp in the past. It’s not the real democracy after that. Then just blame General Sonthi only!!!

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49 Andrew Bond // May 18, 2010 at 1:07 am

An awful lot of justification from both sides to pin the blame on each other but you can reduce all the events of this big crisis into one simple emerging truth;

“If you want to force a change in government, round up 5,000 committed people (and some financial backing and co-operation) and lay siege to the centre of the capital city. Call it a peaceful protest for democracy and dig in until eventually you have to be forcibly removed, at which point it descends into chaos, blood is spilt and the govt has to resign in shame.”

Now, take that formula, reverse the parties, switch yellow for red and you have an unending karmic cycle of tragedy. No ifs and buts, under these murky rules the protesters, government, soldiers, vigilantes and armchair commentators all seem to have their own interpretation of what’s acceptable and what’s not.

And if everyone sat down and pondered the utter futility of all this, and concluded that neither side will ever achieve their idea of a victory, then perhaps we might be willing to reach an holistic and peaceful compromise.

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50 ricefieldpotato // May 18, 2010 at 1:14 am

the war on drugs was a massacre. – Bingo!

Resisting to respect the law and rules, resisting arrest by committing even more lawlessness and even ambush civilians , armed forces on duty as well as civilian and public property can lead to fatal attractions for the lawless mob as a whole. After all they were given chances after chances. – This cannot be considered as a massacre.

Rumors have it that men from neighboring countries are going to be used to disperse the crowds. This could explain the delay in doing so and it will take away the pressure from Thai soldiers to carry out their duty.

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51 Seh Daeng // May 18, 2010 at 2:18 am

So, these protestors block the elites, royalists, Abhisit wife from buying Gucci, Prada & Furcoats in Ratchaprasong. So Abhisit orders the Army to kill them all…..what Fascist nonsense is this? Where is the government of the people, by the people and for the people?

Sure, Abhisit can sleep at night knowing he murdered so many innocent Thais on the street….sleep well in your gold linen pillows while Thai farmers left to rot.

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52 David // May 18, 2010 at 2:25 am

We’ve seen enough video clips now to know that the Thai military is going beyond anything the UN “Basic principles on use of lethal force and firearms..” would allow. I find it amazing that so many Western observers condone the shooting of protesters who clearly are not presenting an imminent threat to life. Human Rights Watch is one of the few organisations currently highlighting this aspect of unfolding events. More national governments and international organisations need to get off the fence and condemn the Thai security forces’ disproportionate use of force. The fact that a minority of protesters may be armed makes no difference to the general pattern of shooting from distance at groups of people in the “live fire zones”. If the international community remains silent a lot more people are going to die.

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53 Ten // May 18, 2010 at 2:34 am

Thank you very much for your understanding of our situation and the help by this article. I do hope it can shed the light to most readers. I am Thai whose friends are the victims of the October 1976 massacre.

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54 Daniel Wolf // May 18, 2010 at 2:40 am

There does appear to be a bias in the news reports coming out of Thailand. Articles are excessively circumspect or even changed to remove any hint that the government is embarked on a massacre. Even when a leader of the Reds is shot from above by a high velocity bullet, it is described by most news agencies in the most general way, as an attack by an unknown assailant. I can understand this coming from Thai news but from the foreign correspondants? Perhaps if there was oil found in Thailand the tone of reporting would change.

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55 u_chemp // May 18, 2010 at 3:50 am

if you kill one man, you’re a murder, if you kill a thousand you’re a king, if you kill them all, you’re a god.

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56 Daniel Wolf // May 18, 2010 at 4:01 am

Just came across a this article which is a perfect example of “official” news reporting in Thailand:

The Bangkok Post

Gunmen target innocent people: CRES

* Published: 17/05/2010 at 10:29 PM
* Online news: Breakingnews

There were about five to ten armed men firing at innocent people from a building near the Century Hotel, Col Sansern Kaewkamnerd, Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) spokesman, said on Monday night.

These men dressed like soldiers, he said.

According to Col Sansern, they fired shots from the 24th floor of Cheewathai building.

Authorities were trying to pressure them but the operation was done with difficulty because the building was under construction, he said.

Col Sansern also said that these armed men must be supporters of the red-shirts, because no one can enter the area except red-shirt protesters.

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57 Steve // May 18, 2010 at 6:13 am

c55

The RTA is not exactly short of helicopters – and they can’t all be in use ferrying generals to and from golf courses. If Col Sansern is so convinced that the “five to ten armed men….. must be supporters of the red-shirts, how is it that one wasn’t called in to deal with them?

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58 barnsybkk // May 18, 2010 at 6:31 am

Seh Daeng# 50, if you popped ya head out of the workers cooperative occasionally you would know that Paragon is just sooo Lo So. Real men always have and always will, buy their handbags in Paris. Dear Leader out n about on Satdi!

http://tweetphoto.com/22827806

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59 Spouse Comment // May 18, 2010 at 2:00 pm

My Roadmap:
1) Respect human life – stop killing people.
2) Do not make accusations without genuine evidence.
3) Stop demonising your opponents and leaving no way out.
4) Take the fight off the streets and back to the parliament – polititicans do your work.
5) Stop ranking loyalty higher than honesty and integrity.

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60 Global Voices in English » Thailand: Red Shirt protesters remain defiant // May 18, 2010 at 3:59 pm

[...] anonymous writer warns about the tactic of the government to label protesters as terrorists The deaths of score protesters that night somehow were presented as proof of “terrorists” and [...]

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61 Thailand: Red Shirt protesters remain defiant :: Elites TV // May 18, 2010 at 4:47 pm

[...] anonymous writer warns about the tactic of the government to label protesters as terrorists The deaths of score protesters that night somehow were presented as proof of “terrorists” and [...]

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62 Official Russia | The Semantics of Violence in Thailand // May 18, 2010 at 6:05 pm

[...] be reading this week about the crisis in Thailand is New Mandala. Below is a snippet of an interesting post about the language we choose to use in describing political violence (please note that the post is [...]

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63 รายงานข่าวประจำวันที่ 17 พ.ค.สูญเสียเสธ.แดง-เส้นตายมาร์คทมิฬไร้ผล - www.democracythai.com // May 18, 2010 at 7:21 pm

[...] 20.00 New Mandala [...]

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64 Mr. V // May 18, 2010 at 8:01 pm

@55

Sadly I laughed when I saw that out of the total absurdness of it. It is quite amazing announcement from CRES. Not their first or last similar one either.

.”We spotted men who look like military shooting down at people at the protestors, on the protestors “side”. We tried to like pressure them in an unknown way and then we did nothing about it. Because uh, they were in building under construction and they had obviously fallen from the sky on top of that building and we just uh were not bothered to stop them from shooting those annoying buffaloes protesting. They must be other buffaloes shooting down at the other buffaloes. They must be black shirts in greenshirts trying to frame government and army but as I said too much work. Why bother. This has been a presentation by CRES.”

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65 Daniel Wolf // May 19, 2010 at 4:39 am

“People will believe what they want to believe”

-Henry Louis Mencken

Regardless of how incredible the news releases from CRES become, a large proportion of people will except them as truthful. This is not out of naivety but rather because they desire peace and good government. Disbelief in their leaders would necessarily require a fundamental change in their thinking that , until pressed, most people are not willing to make.

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66 P // May 19, 2010 at 6:53 am

Why someone keep saying about GOV are killing people? Hey!!! doing that is not fun. Why don’t we ask for the reason behind. They shoot because there’re reason for doing so. And before they make a shot they say, the tell, they make cautions and because the protesters resist to going on[shooting back, burn another tires, etc.], lastly they shoot.

While somebody keep saying about the number of casualties, they should know opportunities the reds got last week. And they should also consider the way the protest going on right now.

should we stop that or let anybody burn what/where they want? should we surrender to this kind of violence(not peaceful protest as claimed) or we have to look forward for the standard setting?

STOP PUSHING THESE PEOPLE TO DIE FOR YOUR INTERESTS, THAKSIN, PLEASE STOP.

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67 Joe // May 19, 2010 at 6:58 am

Massacre or not, a UDD leader admitted yesterday that Thaksin is funding the protests. The New York Times reported today that each time the parties have tried to negotiate a solution, the negotiations have broken down because the UDD insists that the government grant amnesty to Thaksin.

Add those facts together and what do you have? You have a “political movement” purporting to seek economic justice, equality and democracy, that is really just a shill for the ambitions of one of Thailand’s most venal politicians. The red-shirt movement’s various protests began in force after the Thai courts froze a few billion baht of Thaksin’s money. Just connect the dots. Maybe he’s seeking revenge, maybe he wants to return to Thailand to run for PM again so he can steal a few more billion baht and kill a few thousand more Thais (whether or not these deaths are a massacre, Thaksin’s summary execution of some 2,000 Thais in his war on drugs certainly was!). Either way, it’s hard to see the UDD as a legitimate social movement when Thaksin is pulling the strings.

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68 Tarrin // May 19, 2010 at 10:45 am

P – 65

There’s so many reason to kill a person, didn’t you learn anything from our bloody history? Didn’t you know the reason they use to shoot at the students in 1976? because they were commie, now what’s the reason? because they are terrorist. Dont you know the establishment’s old trick is a bit old already? why do people get fool all the time.

I told you what happened after 1976, Thailand was spiral into the 8 years of communist movement war that took unaccountable of lives and we are talking about no more than 10,000 students movement here. However, this time, the movement is much bigger, who knows what it will turn out this time.

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69 DaveH // May 19, 2010 at 2:03 pm

I don’t know how many of you left wing supporters live here in Bangkok.
What is the government supposed to do with people who refuse to
cease their blockade of the center of Bangkok after 2 months of patient negotiation, even providing mobile toilets for them to use? What other government in the world would have been so patient.? Do you really think this is about democracy? Is paying protesters an intergral part of democracy? Or is it akin to being a mercenary? Calling it a massacre is inflammatory. All the protesters have to do is leave. You really think the current red leadership is interested in the rights of the poor?
Here’s an example of how caring Jatuporn is:

http://siamreport.blogspot.com/2010/02/jatuporn-promphan.html

Jatuporn served as secretary for Praphat Banyachartrak, a deputy agriculture minister and minister of natural resources and environment in the Thaksin government. In 2003, Jatuporn and other ministry officials came into conflict with local farmers in Nakhon Si Thammarat over government land policy. The farmers, in protest of government policy, took over a plantation owned by Thai Ruam Pattana Farming Co. The protesters accused authorities of leasing large tracts of land to big palm oil producers instead of redistributing the land to the farmers. In reponse to the land seizure, Jatuporn and other ministry officials ordered 1,000 police to retake the property. Jatuporn defended the action, saying the protesters were armed and violated trespassing laws. (Bangkok Post, October 30, 2003).

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70 Global Voices in Italiano » Tailandia: situazione in stallo, le Camicie Rosse resistono // May 19, 2010 at 2:40 pm

[...] autore anonimo mette in guardia sulla tattica del governo di etichettare i dimostranti come terroristi: Le decine di dimostranti uccisi l'altra notte sono state presentate come prova della presenza [...]

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71 mikeize // May 19, 2010 at 3:13 pm

I get a kick out of the commentators who allow that the protesters ‘have legitimate grievances’, but that they have gone too far, and have refused opportunities to leave. I would like to ask those commentators this: What would you do in their situation? You elect 3 governments, all of which are tossed aside in rapid succession by the army and the courts (under pressure from an occupation of the Airport!). The current government is in power ONLY because it OUTLAWED all the competition! I would say that protest is the next step in order to salvage democracy. So you protest and the government will not listen, so you keep protesting. Then they shoot you. The message is crystal clear if you ask me: Democracy is not for the poor, even if you have the most votes. Sit down and accept it, or you will be shot and/or jailed. Oh, and your media will be censored, or otherwise demonize you for exercising your rights. Perhaps you disagree with my characterization of the situation, but I can tell you with certainty that this is PRECISELY how the vast majority of the protesters feel. These are their ‘legitimate grievances’.

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72 DaveH // May 19, 2010 at 4:25 pm

I would have accepted the offer of an election in November and Suthep’s appearance at the DSI to face charges.

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73 JohnH // May 19, 2010 at 4:45 pm

Yesterday, an acquaintance of my wife from a small village in Petchabun told her that about half of the people in her village support the red shirts. Some went to Bangkok to protest.

They were paid to do so. Their ID cards were also taken as a guarantee against them leaving. Some in recent days have tried to leave the protest site and been refused the return of their ID cards to do so.

My wife has no reason to believe that this woman works for military Psych. Ops or is part of a network of paid government propagandists. Nor is my wife either, by the way; at least, as far as I know, she isn’t.

The conversation was had randomly, while talking about the current situation in Bangkok.

Any comments?

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74 Tarrin // May 19, 2010 at 4:55 pm

JohnH – 72

Anyone with yellow mind set will said that, no matter where they from, I went to the protest site every day after work never once that I got ask for my ID card. Anyway we should work this logic backward a bit, there were around 2-3000 protesters during noon, the number balloon to 80,000 by 10 and then go down to around 20-30,000 before morning. and then to 2,000 lever again. If what she said is true, then we shouldn’t see this huge fluctuation in protesters throughout the day.

Last question, how much do you think your life worth if you know that one day your life will be at risk of getting shot at?

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75 JohnH // May 19, 2010 at 5:48 pm

Tarrin 73 – Thanks for your comments, truly.

And for me this lies at the heart of this current problem. Not so much what someone knows, but the unquestioning and unfailing belief in it.

We have all had a chance, long and exhausting no doubt, to look at the often contradictory evidence presented all over NM in the last week or so, but few of us have had the opportunity to be there when it happened, or know with certainty if something is or was true or not.

We have our own personal experiences of living here and we all know someone who shares their personal experience with us, but that single degree of separation from the actual event is often enough to cast doubt in someone’s mind. What is the truth?

Most of on NM can only hope to judge another poster’s integrity and the truth in their comments from the way it accords with ours; this also has many deciding factors; namely and to name but a few, our personal knowledge and understanding of the same event, the general and specific experience of living here, our personal biases, ideological standpoints, interpretation and application of what is right and fair for people in our society and even the language we choose to express our thoughts.

Highly emotive words and lofty ideals have been expressed on NM during these last fews days from those who support either side of the current political . Facts have been presented as the truth, while others have tried to discredit them. Opposing discussion and debate has gone on. The truth, for many of us, is not at the heart of the question any more.

The truth, at the moment, is that the protest is coming to end.

As I write, the news is reporting that the red leaders at Rajaprasong are calling for the protest to stop, but even here Nattawut and Jatoporn are saying this (movement) will not stop.

Meanwhile, smoke, explosions and the sound of gun fire continues unabatted within the the camp at Rajaprasong…

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76 mikeize // May 19, 2010 at 5:56 pm

I lived in my in-laws’ village for a month, and attended several rallies in Khon Kaen. I can say without a doubt, that nobody was paid to attend. On the contrary, every night at the rally, representatives of various villages would carry a money-tree up on stage. This was money collected from people in their village to support the protest. Sometimes, people also donated things like a bag of chillies, or a few cases of Mama noodles. Each money-tree was accompanied by a list which detailed the village of origin, along with the names and amounts of money given by each individual. The one presenting the money, would then give a statement if they wished, into the microphone. It was a jovial and electrifying atmosphere. Everyone in attendance was there because they BELIEVE in the cause! That is what some people refuse to believe. Nobody is getting ‘paid to protest’… they are rightly incensed at the state of their country, and happily jump on the buses or trucks to Bangkok. If they are given any ‘pocket money’, it is being gladly donated by their friends and neighbors. We met many people who have gone, come back, and will go again. Nobody is being held hostage by anyone other than the army snipers. The garbage about confiscated ID cards? Think about it for half a second. Would anyone let the loss of their ID card prevent them from fleeing a life-threatening situation? My wife recently replaced her card, and I think it was something like 30 Baht! Definitely not a barrier to free movement. On the same point, who would risk their lives for whatever-amount-of-money-per-day they are supposedly getting? The government is in overdrive, frantically trying to spread every falsehood they can, to keep people from realizing that people are protesting because they WANT to.

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77 Simon // May 19, 2010 at 6:08 pm

Well the shows over and without the massacre foretold by the doomsayers.

I hope some people will now reconsider their views of the Thai government and particularly the army. It’s not run by the jackbooted thugs of the 90′s. Things change.

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78 JohnH // May 19, 2010 at 6:26 pm

Mike – the problem, as I have tried to point out, is that in times like this people DO believe this kind of garbage. And it is difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth when such propaganda or lies ARE believed by people.

Last night, an army spokesman aired a vid. clip that showed a number of dead soldiers being taken away by helicoptor after being shot in the head by their commanders for refusing to ‘fight’ the protesters.

The vid. was taken in the far south LAST YEAR after ‘terrorists’ had blown up the truck they were in, and then shot them in the head as they lay on the ground already dead or injured. The film WAS made out of Bangkok – open spaces, palm trees, no high rises etc. etc.

The thought crossed my mind at the time that maybe Psych. Ops had inserted this onto the internet so they could refute it on TV and to the public, simply to further rubbish the red shirts.

Quality comment or not? 5 1
79 Macca // May 19, 2010 at 6:32 pm

In reply to Mikeize, I agree, from my experience in a small village near Khon Kaen, exactly the same thing was happening. I found it mildly amusing the degree to which names etc were recorded. Was the red shirt rally largely funded through Thaksin et al ?..undoubtedly. To then make the conceptual jump that he is funding terrorism as the Thai govt. would have us believe is way too big a step. Today with some Thai friends, we watched the army move in to Rachaprasong. Some of my friends were in tears, the feeling being that this is the end of their dream for an equitable society or at least having some say in the running of the country. My personal opinion is that there has been a serious underestimation of the depth of hostility towards the Abhisit govt. and also the palace and as a consequence I would not rule out the emergence of an underground offensive. Of course, Thaksin may well have more powerful cards up his sleeve yet to play. I don’t think this is any where near the end of Thailand’s troubles.

Quality comment or not? 9 0
80 DaveH // May 19, 2010 at 7:22 pm

Promising start to the new democracy . Let the burning and looting begin.

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81 mikeize // May 19, 2010 at 7:23 pm

JohnH
I don’t know anything about the video you’re speaking of, but excuse me for thinking that it’s irrelevant. Any reasonable person knows where the vast majority of propaganda in Thailand is coming from. The people I know don’t NEED manufactured videos of injustice… they have actual injustice in their own experience! Propaganda and censorship are methods of hiding the truth. A cursory glance at the dismal state of Thai media speaks volumes about how desperate the regime is to hide the truth from the Thai people. In other words, even without personal experience in Thailand, one would know that ‘something fishy’ is going on. Fortunately for Abhisit, the rest of the world doesn’t really get to see much Thai domestic media, as it would be damning evidence in itself, when compared to international reports.

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82 JohnH // May 19, 2010 at 8:07 pm

Mike – I have no problem with your central assertion that the Thai media is rubbish! Or that,the censorship is suggested or imposed by government and others in position of invisible influence.I completely agree.

As I write, I am hearing yet another sad ‘sing a song’ vid. compilation of recent events on PBS spliced with pleas for whatever from those poor, unfortunates who are caught up in this mess.

Fodder for the masses, who, for the majority, accept it all meekly enough.

As areas in Bangkok are getting torched and chaos is on the streets again, the Thai public has to listen to nationalistic, propgandised, let all pull together songs.

And the sad thing? You know they won’t switch off the set.

BTW, Channel 3 is on fire and has closed down.

Quality comment or not? 5 0
83 Jit // May 19, 2010 at 8:28 pm

Dave H

Thanks for the reminder of Jatuporn’s democratic record.

If there is real interest in pursuing a democratic political agenda then we will also need to take a long hard critical look at how the Reds have performed. From huge popular support – and a lot of sympathy among Bangkokians during the peaceful phase, through to a complete failure to encourage political debate within the protest site, refusal to condemn violence and embracing the rhetoric of war.

Does anyone believe that this – and the looting now taking place – furthers democracy.

We could have had a process of negotiation on political reform. Even if it were flawed surely it would be better than this. And elections in November.

Now what will we get? Well, we’re starting off with a curfew…….not encouraging

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84 Leeyiankun // May 19, 2010 at 9:32 pm

Jit, you offer your views on Thaksin & the reds, and how lowly they are on your humanity scale.

So how is the Abhisit government doing in any way a correct path for the country to take?

May be you should run for office, you certainly seem sure that you know enough of Thai politics.

Quality comment or not? 1 4
85 Macca // May 19, 2010 at 9:57 pm

To JohnH
Ah Thai media…yes it really is a joke, as is the govt’s. censorship of internet websites etc…. but as I said in a different post on this site..there is enough blame to go around. Whilst I sympathise with the political agenda of the red shirts, Thaksin was one of the worst manipulators of the media and his bully boy tacticts of law suits and the like really was quite sickening to watch. But, my question is… ‘Is there something in Thai culture / thinking / mindset, which actually prefers a non challenging media?’ I give as an example any Thai soapy which continually presents the worst stereotyping of Thai society. If there is no public voice asking for a better standard within the media, are they not then just giving the public what they want?

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86 StanG // May 19, 2010 at 10:07 pm

Jit, reds first appeared when they hijacked anti-coup rallies for the Thaksin cause and merged them.

Thaksin made his first call-in to their first rally that saw the usual 200-300 crowd swell to 20,000.

Quality comment or not? 1 3
87 Morrison // May 19, 2010 at 10:33 pm

It’s a massacre no ifs and buts. The Reds leadership (conveniently out of range) would not want it any other way.

Quality comment or not? 3 2
88 Jit // May 19, 2010 at 11:28 pm

Leeyiankun 83

A shame that my comments were taken in this way.

I am assuming that all contributors to this forum have a more or less shared commitment to a democratic process that ensures justice and strives for equity.

My concern is that the Red movement had a fantastic opportunity. Last Songkhran was a disaster. This year they appeared to have learned with a commitment to non-violence. A huge gathering spreading goodwill among Bangkokians.

But where was the political debate? It was just slogans from the stage – and a lot of violent rhetoric. This stage could have been used for a real critical debate about how to move democracy forward – beyond the ‘class war’. This could have raised the political consciousness.

They went into negotiations – but were not prepared to offer any compromise. They forced the government into a corner – and allowed them to justify their tough stance.

And what have they got? I feel they could have achieved more by keeping the popular support of Bangkok and others who had initially been impressed by their demonstration – and by opening up a political process of negotiation.

I do not feel that the strategy of bloodshed and chaos will further the cause of democracy. I am not confident that targeting the media will help. And it just confirms the worst excesses of the Thaksin era.

I have to say that I feel betrayed by Thaksin. He came in on the back of the 97 constitution – and could have delivered so much. He courted activists and adopted some important policy changes. But ultimately he failed to deliver – 30 baht health care but inadequate investment in the whole health care system so that the proportion of medical staff to population is still poor in many places. He was more interested in form over substance.

But more than anything Thaksin’s assault on the independent institutions of the constitution, and the extreme human rights abuses around the drugs war, the south, targeting NGOs and academics dared to criticise him – discredit any claim he may have to representing democracy, or to any movement that is formed in his image.

All of this has been said by others on this forum.

There are other ways of promoting democracy and of struggling against oppressive governments.

My feeling is that the Reds have blown it. My gloomy prediction is that we will face a level of political violence that will play into the hands of extremists. I do not believe that most Thais have the stomach for a protracted political struggle that involves a high level of violence – and during which economic conditions for many will deteriorate.

My fear is that out of this chaos we will face an even worse government – and even less political space to present an alternative.

I would hope that a forum like this can at least contribute to thinking through an alternative agenda beyond the calls for ‘class war’ and ‘civil war’.

Quality comment or not? 5 0
89 DaveH // May 20, 2010 at 12:32 am

Leeyiankun ,

I didn’t see anything in Jit’s comment about “the reds, and how lowly they are on your humanity scale. ” these are your words.

he said – well you can read it above – he just said they blew their
opportunity.

I know this is a difficult, passionate topic, but twisting each others
words to make them more emotive is not going to help anyone.

Quality comment or not? 3 0
90 mikeize // May 20, 2010 at 8:49 am

Do not blame the red-shirts for failing to negotiate! There were repeated calls by the leadership for negotiations from the beginning, yet Abhisit dragged his feet while ever pressuring the army to begin the massacre! The army held out as long as politically possible, and then felt compelled to act. The fact that Abhisit has now called off the early elections is a clear sign that he never intended to have them in the first place–precisely why the UDD accepted that offer conditional on official assurances of the date of house dissolution, and new elections. All you heard in the Thai media was: “everybody knows that elections in October means house dissolution in September. The red shirts should just take his word for it.” Tellingly, Abhisit refused to grant such assurances (why not, if they were merely incidental?), and now we see why. The regime has scoffed at repeated calls by the protesters and international entities for third-party moderation, preferring a misplaced sense of honor, to peace.
No, the demonstrators knew that if they went home with only Abhisit’s word… their leaders would be rounded up, and the government would tighten its control over the movement, and in the end they would still not have democracy. The only ‘opportunity’ that the protesters blew, was perhaps the opportunity to leave without being shot.

Quality comment or not? 4 2
91 Jit // May 20, 2010 at 11:57 am

mikeize 89

Maybe you’re right.

But what have they got out of this strategy? Leaders arrested – do you think they will be out on bail with this level of violence? Do you think they will get a fair trial now?

Elections? Looks like the government has the perfect excuse not to hold elections with a civil war raging, and armed groups on the loose.

Process of reconciliation? Independent inquiry to violent incidents? Unlikely now.

This is a very high risk strategy. Burning down Bangkok certainly won’t work, and burning down sala klang in provinces could well back fire. It can be seen to play right into the government/PAD’s hands.

The stage is set for a political crackdown on a scale we haven’t seen for a long time.

But ultimately there will have to be some kind of negotiated process. How many years before this can occur? How many dead? And ultimately a negotiation means finding some middle ground.

The UDD have negotiated a surrender for the leadership. Absolutely none of their original demands have been met.

My question is quite simple – would they not have got a better deal by accepting the road map last week? Or rather, would the quest for democracy not have been better served by negotiation around the road map?

I know many on this forum are looking forward to a civil war and a revolution. It’s easy enough to get such a struggle started – but reigning it in to an acceptable conclusion is a different matter. And in the end, former enemies will have to sit around the table. Unless of course, one side can slaughter the other.

Quality comment or not? 1 1
92 mikeize // May 20, 2010 at 3:19 pm

Jit,
While those protesting in the streets share many common grievances and motivations, they are not a single organism. Each one has weighed the risks and potential gains to their actions. I think that most underestimated the regime’s resolve to maintain power. For my part, I question whether there was ever any prospect of ‘fair trials’. Same goes for elections and ‘independent inquiries’. Please excuse them for being sceptical of this government, which has (in their view) totally disenfranchised them, used relentless propaganda to demonize them and spread hatred, and finally been willing to shoot them. I never once felt that Abhisit was sincerely offering any concessions. Yes, they could have stopped the protest early, possibly been granted some amnesty… and everything would have been the same. I don’t think that ‘burning down Bangkok’ is a strategy so much as an angry reaction. No, it won’t do anyone any good, but neither is it particularly indicative of the nature of the red movement (despite eager cries to the contrary). What you are seeing now is the entirely predictable effects of anger and frustration on the part of people whose last democratic resort has been utterly disregarded. The responsibility for this entire mess lies squarely with Abhisit. At any time since the protests started, all he has had to do, was make a sincere effort to engage meaningfully with the protesters. Instead, he stalled, wavering between hard-line rhetoric and indefinite offers of early elections. From the beginning, it has been clear, that Abhisit was frustrated at the army’s unwillingness to act. If he had his way, the scene today would have happened two months ago. There has been a concerted effort to deprive the people of political power. A collusion of the army, privy council, courts, and other powerful members of Thai society have shown that they will not let democracy, or innocent people stand in their way. You ask if they would have gotten a ‘better deal’, but I ask if there was ever any deal to begin with. I doubt anyone is “looking forward to a civil war” (I hope you were joking). But if anyone is responsible for that eventuality, it is again, Abhisit. He has done more to sow division in Thailand among ‘both’ sides of this conflict through his reckless use of propaganda, and unwillingness to negotiate, than any inconvenience the protesters have caused some Bangkokians.

Quality comment or not? 2 1
93 Leeyiankun // May 20, 2010 at 4:13 pm

DaveH, that was the impression I got from his words. If you try to legitimized people getting shot for speaking up/protesting, I doubt you give a damn about his well-being. Jit repeatedly says that the Reds are to blame for all the mess. In last Songkran’s “Disaster”, the gov didn’t even caught the one who planted the gastruck on Dindaeng. Same goes for most of the offense. Popular theory is that most of it was staged by Newin(we had some photo of him leaving the scene). Truth or not, no one was arrested for M79 shootings. Not now, not ever.

If there is a so-called ‘Black shirt’ groups that stems from the Reds, they’re doing the gov favors than their own.

The Junta gov of Surayuth expeience new year ‘bombings’ that had Bangkok changes its entire Garbage bin placed in the city. Not even one suspect had been caught and convicted of it. Bombing tactics are frequently used by the army to plant evidence of the other side’s ‘violent act’. So excuse us for not believing.

Pattaya summit was a different story, Reds stormed the buiding. But the curious part was the security who lead them in first. Why? It all seemed too convenient.

Same with the Chula hospital incident, there was never any acts of violence involved(nothing was destroyed), yet reports of ‘Red Thugs’ covered the headlines for weeks. Needless to say after some time, people were then shot by snipers positioned in this hospital again.

The Thai army might not seem much, but remember that they recieved training from the CIA & the US army. Now Uncle Sam might not like it, but this training is put to good use. The fight against Communism had turned into a period of oppression, that was not wasted training.

Given its dabbling in lies and propaganda, you can forgive the Reds for failing to trust Abhisit and his daddy long-legs a bit, won’t you?

Crowd control will always be difficult, people riding on an emotional high is hardly containable. Hooligans are prime examples, even in the west. Yet the blame falls on the protesters to assert control? Not the well trained, well funded, well equipt army?

To me, Jit seems to think that the events was well with in the Reds hand. Well, it wasn’t. Most of their demands weren’t met. Some ridiculed, some was dismissed before they even bought up.

Heck, if you must place a blame. You might as well place it on the man who can end it. I think you know fairly well who. But let’s not speak his name, for the safety of the Thais on this site, ok?

Quality comment or not? 4 0
94 Has ASEAN communities forgotten Thailand -the spirits of international solidarity?– In memory of May 2010 Massacre in Bangkok « Trinleychodron's Blog // Nov 14, 2010 at 11:31 pm

[...] The May 2010 massacre in Thailand [...]

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95 Is now the time for a Thailand intervention? | Asian Correspondent // Mar 21, 2011 at 9:03 pm

[...] the record, I consider the Bangkok Massacre of 2010 precisely that – a massacre. In my opinion the evidence is simply overwhelming – [...]

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96 Is the US State Dept report on Thai Human Rights a bad joke? | Asian Correspondent // Apr 11, 2011 at 8:48 pm

[...] For example this is all the US State Department has to say on the dozens of people killed and thousands injured by the Thai Army in 2010’s Bangkok Massacre. [...]

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97 Bahrain v Thailand: USA allies who get away with murder. | Asian Correspondent // Apr 22, 2011 at 8:07 pm

[...] unarmed civilians, that include the massacres of 1973, 1976, 1992, Tak Bai, War on Drugs, and the Bangkok Massacre of 2010, the USA is silent. Despite torture of Red Shirt protesters, some of the most draconian censorship [...]

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98 Human Rights Watch and “constructed balance”. | Asian Correspondent // May 7, 2011 at 4:32 am

[...] are those who believe that the HRW report is now the definitive account of what happened during the Bangkok Massacre of April/May 2010 and anyone who dares to offer any critique of it is either a Thaksin stooge or a [...]

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99 One year after the Bangkok Massacre: US Marines train Thai military snipers | Asian Correspondent // Jun 17, 2011 at 5:41 pm

[...] a year after the Bangkok Massacre it is no longer disputed by anyone, except acting Thai PM Abhisit, a smattering of oddball expat [...]

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100 Thaksin refuses pardon & the anti-Thaskin movement’s hypocrisy | Asian Correspondent // Nov 20, 2011 at 7:09 pm

[...] only way these pro-Thaksin governments have been removed and then kept out is via illegal coups, brutal massacres, illegal airport occupations by neo-fascist hate mobs, phony politicized convictions, dissolution [...]

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