The article “Is this government violating human rights? Think again” by Arie Bloed published in the Bangkok Post on 3 June 2010 raises many important points.
First of all, the author argues that the dispersal of the two-month-long demonstration by the Thai government is legitimate and proper. And that no other countries in the world would have tolerated such a marathon demonstration. But, in fact, the demonstrations would not have lasted as long as they did had there been any offer of a speedy and viable political solution from the Prime Minister. The futile first and only round of negotiations resulted in no acceptable option for resolving the demands for speedy elections since the duration after which he would call a House Dissolution was too long.
Secondly, whilst it can be agreed that the government is supposed to “maintain public order” and prevent the “the disproportionate violation of the rights of others”, government is surely also supposed to act in response to the genuine grievances of its own people. The protesters peacefully exercised their rights to freedom of expression and to peaceful assembly. Prior to the crackdown on 10 April, there were no reports whatsoever of any violent and aggressive incidents coming from the Red Shirt gathering. Nor does Arie Bloed find any evidence of any such violent incidents.
Thirdly, the author disclaims himself from talking about the “raging censorship” in Thailand and goes on to criticize the protesters for their invasion of TV stations and public offices and even a hospital. This reflects a vital flaw in his argument, since the very reason that protesters were prompted to storm into public places stemmed largely from indiscriminate and blanket censorships of their own media and communications possibilities by the government – not to mention government propaganda of various kinds. Enforcement of draconian laws authorizes the Thai government to put extremely harsh pressure on the demonstrators including the restriction of their mobility, their rights of free speech, and their self-organizing.
Finally, the author criticizes the government rightly about its poor intelligence which made it unable to identify the “armed groups” among the demonstrators, but he nonetheless says the government is somehow justified by international human rights standards in ordering the troops to use firearms against demonstrators. This is such an oxymoron – using human rights norms to justify killing innocent people – the point is that the poor intelligence which made the government unable to identify alleged “armed groups” in the midst of the protestors, should not have been used to justify using firearms against a crowd of mainly unarmed protestors. In other words, how would it be possible for the government to use firearms against the right targets, namely the “armed groups”? As a result, none of the slain and injured demonstrators and passersby, more than 2,000 of them, was found to have in possession any weapon. Can this justify the use of gunshots for “self-defense”? Worse, many of the victims are found to have been shot by “indiscriminate shootings” including foreign and local journalists and medic personnel who literally gave and risked their lives to save others. All of this is in serious violation of the most basic principles of humanitarian law, let alone the human rights obligations of the Thai government.
On 31 May 2010 at the Human Rights Council in Geneva, Navanethem Pillay, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights stated unambiguously that human rights had been violated, when she said: “…the authority has the responsibility to restore order. In doing so, however, they must abide by international standards concerning the use of force and due process for those detained.” The United Kingdom’s statement said: “We deeply regret the violence and loss of life in Bangkok. As a friend of Thailand, we wish to see all sides engage in an urgent process of national reconciliation to address the underlying social, economic and political causes of the recent violence and continuing instability. Differences need to be resolved through an open, honest political dialogue rather than through violence.” (Philip Tissot, UK Chargé d’Affaires, The Human Rights Council in Geneva).
In the same meeting, Spain (on behalf of the European Union) voiced its concerns over degrading human rights situations in various countries including Thailand, thus welcoming independent investigations into the human rights abuses in relation to the government crackdowns.
After all it was the bloodiest dispersal in Thailand’s history. The number of casualties among civilians far exceeded that of the officials. The whole legal system has been bent toward providing for the state to use excessive powers against its own people whose demand was simply an earlier election. Such restrictions of freedom have been made without any concern for the obligations Thailand has toward international instruments that it has ratified, in particular the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). The right to life of Thai people has been trampled underfoot so brutally. Yet, according to ICCPR even “in time of public emergency which threatens the life of the nation” (Art. 4), there can be no derogation to the right to life.
As Arie Bloed must realize, misapplying some clauses of international law, without fully understanding its purpose and without taking the deeper context into account is like giving governments a ‘license to kill’ and perpetuating the status quo of murderous governments.
[Kwanravee Wangudom is a human rights professional and activist, and graduate of the International Institute of Social Studies (ISS) of Erasmus University, The Hague, The Netherlands (Masters in Human Rights, Development and Social Justice).]
I checked out the comment in Bangkokpost, I saw someone said
“The bottom line is the democracy and human right has to be modified to fit individual nations and cultures”
No wondered Thailand history’s is full of violence and blood, human right is the basic requirement for a proper developed democratic country. It has a certain standard, you either have human right or you don’t, if the culture is oppressive then should have oppressive human right standard as well????
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Kwanravee,
The UN High Commissioner for Human rights, N. Pillay, is a she. [Now corrected in post. AW]
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it is easy to find some reactionary expert to mouth words publishable for the BP or Nation! of course the underlying assumption is that this is a legitimately installed government. It is not. The people have every moral and legal right to demonstrate in a public place and demand open and transparent elections, the restoration of liberal democracy, end of double standards, social equity and fairness, and not be killed by state-sanctioned agents for doing so.
Coincidently the “third hand” mentioned are factions in the military, aligned with parastatal interests; the army is divided as we shall see in the next promotional rounds in September (oscillating around Prem and anti-Prem interests). “Black shirts”? – much talked about, may be either agents provocateurs sent by the govt to generate chaos, give the appearance of Red Shirts as being militaristic, and justify the onslaught. Earlier, these may be the unarmed barricade guards trained by SehDaeng (earlier on SehDaeng trained unemployed and homeless folk living around Sanam Luang to secure barricades when the protest was situated there). Dont get misled by Abhisit’s plot to detract attention from the heinous actions of Des’ military gentleman against the people.
Note the EU parliament condemnation of Abhisit’s alliance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMlbFwEM7uQ
Violence in Thailand BBC Democracy Live 20May 2010 1(2).avi
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Khun Sawarin,
Thank you for correcting me.
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It is surprising (well, actually not) that the editors at the BP would let an article like this through – very innaccurate, claiming to be a human rights analysis when it exhibits a fundamental lack of a basic knowledge of human rights and further is very biased and pro government.
Bloed mentions that the use of firemarms is not a human rights violation. It depends on what you use them for. How can a a sniper shot to the head of unarmed civilians be legitimate and ‘proportional’.
Why have similar domestic disturbances in hiistory (LA riots, the battle of Seattle, UK’s poll riots etc) never come near to producing 88 deaths? Perhaps the use of force was proportional in these cases.
A human rights principle is the rule of law. To shoot people before any procedure, to call them terrorists, without any legal process shows the government wanted to avoid human rights standards.
Without a doubt the reds overstetched their right to assemble to the limit, they were involved in numerous violations of public order. However, this should not be a death penalty, awared not by a judicial system but by a soldier, for these protestors
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why did the protesters stay to the end?
meanwhile it was certainly no surprise to me that given:
- a promise from Abhisit of elections at some future date
- plus a roadmap that is essentially business as usual for the Democrats
- the fact that Abhisit is a puppet with powerful backers with a blemished history and known for their hatred of democracy
that the protesters had to have some guarantees of some good faith
they chose bringing Suthep into the legal system, and he tried a trick, so the govt bad faith was confirmed
and later when Sukhumhand had what he saw were frutiful discussions with the reds and Abhisit cut him off
and then the Senators tried to liaise and Abhisit ignored them
I think the reds were killed by the military snipers, presumably orders from the puppets controllers
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Mr. Wangudom,
Indeed, the protests would not have lasted as long as they did if the government had quickly capitulated to all of the demands of the red shirts, but just as no other country would have allowed demonstrations that were as disruptive and lengthy as the red shirt demonstrations, no other country would have allowed its government to be brought down by a mob. The prime minister was extremely accommodating and made a proposal that was acceptable to the moderate red shirt leaders. It was the small radical faction of the red shirts that forced the government to use force.
I do commend the red shirts for being a peaceful mob before April 10, but even at that date, the protests were a significant disruption to public order and trampled the rights of many others, and even though there was no actual violence, there was an underlying threat of violence. The red shirts were not going to leave unless forced to leave and had every intention of using violence to get their demands met. Some red shirt leaders may have worn Gandhi t-shirts, but they were not preaching non-violence in their daily diatribes against the government — quite the opposite.
Even after the government decided to disperse the mob, the government tried to use a non-violent strategy — isolate the mob and prevent fresh supplies and reinforcements from entering the protest zone. It was the red shirts that initiated the violence against the soldiers. By then, the events of April 10 had shown that the red shirts were willing to kill soldiers.
The government was absolutely justified in using force. I must admit, however, that I do not understand the strategy of using snipers or why there were so many head shots. Perhaps it was felt that more direct engagement would have resulted in even more casualties and violence.
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It was the red shirts that initiated the violence against the soldiers. By then, the events of April 10 had shown that the red shirts were willing to kill soldiers.
It was a band of renegade soldiers killing another band of renegades on duty – soldiers willing to kill soldiers – not redshirts.
The government was absolutely justified in using force.
The unelected government had and has no justification for denying the people’s call for an election – and dissolving the parliament and calling an election would have ended the demonstration. Governments have no rights. Only people have rights.
I must admit, however, that I do not understand the strategy of using snipers or why there were so many head shots. Perhaps it was felt that more direct engagement would have resulted in even more casualties and violence.
The strategy was to kill the people shot and to terrorize the others. The governemnt is clearly guilty of terrorism. They always are in Thailand.
That’s how the Thai military operates : disappearance, torture, and murder are the normal tools of the trade, punctuated every decade or so by wholesale slaughter.
I viewed the statement of Navanethem Pillay, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rightso 31 May 2010 at the Human Rights Council in Geneva as a license to kill and so did the Thai government.
Arie Bloed is just another paid hack at the Bangkok Post. The CRES has hired many to spam websites and to direct malware attacks. The Bangkok Post is doing its part on its “news” and op-ed pages. The Bangkok Post has been the public relations organization for theThai military for decades.
The present de facto government of Thailand and it’s propagandists and apologists at the Bangkok Post and elsewhere are banking on a short attention span on the part of people everywhere and on their ability to spin and recreate history at the same time to whitewash 19 May 2010. It won’t work.
The present Thai regime and its cohorts at the Bangkok Post are down forever as the murderers and assassins, as the apologists and propagandists they are.
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” The futile first and only round of negotiations resulted in no acceptable option…” Indeed! Moreover, if Abhisit, having the upper hand, had had any genuine commitment to negotiating a workable resolution he would have sat down prepared to listen, and not got up until a resolution that was acceptable to both sides had been arrived at. That is the only way negotiations can work; you have to stick at it until the anger dies down & the real talking begins. To hand down a ’5-point plan’, like throwing scraps to the chooks, was bound to result in rejection, because it was right in line with the kind of treatment the Redshirts were (entirely justifiably) reacting against in the first place – the ‘we-know-what’s-best-for-you-&-you should- be-grateful-that-we-are-giving-you, the unworthy-anything-at-all’ approach. Abhisit was just playing a ‘Mr Sweet-mouth’ game with his ‘offer’, & the dice were loaded. It’s no good playing the game according to the rules of the mid-20th century. In an age when we all have mobile phone cameras & the internet, soviet-style tactics cannot work.
This top-down approach is typical of how decisions are made everywhere in Thai culture. It doesn’t work any more. To say that it is ‘cultural’ is not good enough. Cultures are not immovable; they are dynamic. All cultures change as elements that were previously seen to be ‘right & just’ become widely seen to be anachronistic. The cultures of countries that are now seen to be democratic have had to let go of strong holds like the belief that slavery was OK, the belief that women should not have a vote & that they should have less rights in regard to the ownership of property, & smaller salaries, the belief that the state has a right to dictate how consenting adults should behave in bed, etc., etc. All of these were formerly seen to be ‘cultural’. Culture is simply the manifestation of how the bulk of the people perceive identity, relationship, right & wrong, etc., & understandings grow over time.
The notion that a state can turn its army on its citizens is barbaric and primitive. It is entirely indefensible in the 21st century. The Abhisit government is clearly guilty of mass-murder, and no amount of media repression can reverse the fact that the civilised world, including its diplomatic representatives, has already made this judgement. The message is out; the evidence is available, and as soon as one avenue of information is closed, another 2 open up.
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Arie Bloed’s column on the question of whether the Abhisit government violated human rights in its dispersal of the red-shirt protests (Bangkok Post, June 3) suffers from a conceptual flaw.
Mr Bloed correctly states that “demonstrations” of the kind seen in Bangkok would not have been tolerated in Washington, Paris, or Berlin. However, Bangkok did not see “demonstrations” in the western constitutional meaning but rather “mass protests.” Such forms of political dissent are hardly imaginable in western countries (though they were commonplace in their histories), because their political systems include a high degree of mass loyalty based on the fact that they are functioning representative democracies.
This is not the case in Thailand. Even the properly formed governments of Samak Sundaravej and Somchai Wongsawat faced mass protests by the yellow shirts (actively assisted by the current main government party), who were even allowed to capture the seat of government—hardly something that you would expect to see in Washington, Paris or Berlin either.
Therefore, the point is not whether governments in western democracies would have tolerated the red-shirt protests, but what were the political conditions that led to the breakdown of mass loyalty, and finally the mass protests, in Thailand. What must be done to create a political-legal order in Thailand that commands the mass loyalty of its free citizens, which would then limit the showing of dissent to “demonstrations” rather than provoking “mass protests”?
P.S.: Originally, this was a letter to the editor of Bangkok Post (Postbag). Needless to say, it was not published…
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No Khun Som,
No democratic government is ever or can ever be justified using force – as in sending in army and tanks – against its own citizens. Only tyrants, feudal lord monarchies, dictators and the like do that – sending soldiers against own people.
In a modern democratic society, when there is an unruly mob of rioting protesters, the “justified” response is send in the riot police with shields, batons, tear gas, and water cannons (? forgot what’s this called). There will be deaths, there will be injuries, some panicky police might shoot with his handgun, some angry protesters may throw molotov cocktails and injure people or burn down buildings. But these are all arrested, charged and jailed in a civil court. Not shot by snipers or labelled terrorists and branded traitors to their country.
I will never justify the arson, I will condemn those who cold bloodedly plan the arson. I will not condemn words spoken in anger, because I am fallible in that way too. And I will not call these fellow countrymen as “terrorists” even as I agree those guilty should be charged and jailed for setting fire to building.
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I don’t think arguments based on present western democratic standards would work for either side, the gov or the Reds (e.g. ‘no democratic gov would tolerate 2 moths occupation of central business district’ or ‘no democratic gov would set army to disperse demonstrations’). Since most comments above are clearly on the latter side (i.e. against gov’ s conduct), let me give some example why they would not work for the Reds. (Let me remind readers that I’ve been, still am, in sympathy with the Reds’ political aims of reversing the 2006 coup, restoring the rights of the majority of the people to choose their gov.)
Take, for instance, the author’s first point and Michael #10 first paragraph, concerning the negotiations. They simply are not factually accurate: it’s indeed the Reds, or to be more precise, the so-called ‘Hard Core’ leaders of the Reds, who refused to negotiate, first at the end of March (when Jatuporn abruptly broke off Aphisit’s offer of continuing negotiation – in doing so Jatuporn effectively ‘overruled’ over Wira Musikaphong, the Reds’ own more moderate Chairman). Then after the gov and the Wira (and other more moderate leaders) had already negotiated and accepted the 5 point plan, Jatuporn and the ‘Hard Core’ again refused to accept it, and insisting on continuing the occupation, thus splitting the Reds leadership, with the more moderate ones effectively withdrawn.
Or take Khun Nuomi #12 ‘s suggestion that the gov should send the anti-riot police instead. Frankly, that wouldn’t work either, given the size of the rally and the tactics the demonstrators, especially the so-call ‘Redshirt Guards’ used. Yes they’re largely ‘unarmed’. But equipped with big pipe, flagpoles, and the like, and especially given their number, they were more than any police could handle. Witness the around 5 or 6 hours on 10 April, when hundreds of soldiers and heavy tear gas attack (ground levels and from the air) could not disperse the rally on Ratchadamnoen. Please notice that I am NOT suggesting that, therefore the gov was ‘justified’ in using soldiers with live ammunitions instead. I simply point out that your suggestion, based on standard western practice, wouldn’t work.
What I’m suggesting instead is quite similar to Khun Srithanonchai #11, if I understand him correctly, namely what happened was not something we see in present western democracy. But it is something, as Khun Srithanonchai also rightly say, that is ‘commonplace in their histories’ In fact I wrote on Prachatai webboard recently that, instead of arguing based on ‘present standard democratic practice’ (‘democratic gov wouldn’t use troops’ / ‘no democracy would allow occupation of CBD for 2 moths’) which I see as futile on both sides, we should look at what happened in Bangkok recently as a kind of modern-day version of the city uprising, street-fighting, barricade-fighting a-la 19th century Europe (e.g.1848)
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Re: john francis lee #9
I am quite certain, based on reading reports and on talking to many people, that the armed ‘Men-in-Black’ among the Red Shirts are not just (as you say) ‘renegade soldiers killing another band of renegades on duty – soldiers willing to kill soldiers’. They were really part of the Redshirt rally – this doesn’t mean that most ordinary Redshirt folks who attended the rally knew or approved of their being there. But they were there, (from what I can gather) with ‘arrangement’ with certain elements within the movement’s leadership.
This is another example of what I’m trying to argue above, that the Red Shirt themselves (and their sympathizers) could not really claim (western-standard) ‘peaceful democratic protests’ for themselves. (Despite this, I wouldn’t say that the gov thus justified with its ‘terrorist bullshit’ propaganda. Personally I simply see it as a grave tactical mistake by the Red leadership, having armed elements among them).
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The use of live ammunition against unarmed and peaceful protesters is intolerable.
Except they weren’t unarmed and peaceful. Some of them had automatic weapons, M79 grenades, pistols, molotovs among others. This is easily verifiable by anyone who cares to browse Youtube.
On April 10 some “unarmed” and “peaceful” protesters used grenades and automatic weapons to successfully repel the army’s first dispersal attempt with riot gear.
‘Proportional’ force needs to be considered in the context of the reality rather than the propaganda: It was this group of armed and aggressive protesters that dictated the army’s subsequent response.
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It was a band of renegade soldiers killing another band of renegades on duty – soldiers willing to kill soldiers – not redshirts.
So how do you explain this? http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE29Ae02.html
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To advance the “No other governments in the world would have tolerated ‘xxx’ argument” only works if you ignore all the other things that no other government would have tolerated. You know, things like occupying a country’s main international airport FOR A WEEK, or government house FOR THREE MONTHS. I guess in the tiny minds of those making the argument those things were somehow different. I am open to hearing their explanation, if only for the sake of amusement.
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The very sad part about all this is that there may have been a small, brief window of opportunity for peace.
East Timor’s President Ramos-Horta was trying to pursue, and open wider this narrow gap.
No doubt not only because of his long track record as a man of peace, but also in appreciation of the Thai military’s very noble, much appreciated peace-keeping efforts in East Timor.
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The real problem with Arie Bloed’s article is a misplaced emphasis on the interpretation of international human rights law without considering the fundamental problem of basic law in Thai political culture. The lack of respect for legitimate basic law has hindered constitutionalism in Thailand and the ability for “law” to condition the parameters of political conflict and reconciliation.
The arbitrary use (and abuse) of basic law by government after government, coup group after coup group, and protest movement after protest movement indicates a political culture that has yet to fully embrace “law” (and internationally accepted procedures of law) as the indisputable institutional mechanism for peaceful dispute settlement.
How anyone in the Yellow camp can defend the actions of its members (military leaders, coup leaders, tainted judges, PAD protestors, party front men, politically active bureaucrats, royalists) in the name of “law” is a completely hypocritical notion. To discuss the actions of red protestors without context to the violations of law, human rights, and failure of basic law in Thailand that have conditioned these events (and that have been committed by all parties) suggests intellectual dishonesty. Bloed’s article is not credible “analysis”.
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K. Kwanravee suggests that the government must also recognize the “genuine grievances of its own people”. Very true. But surely a genuine grievance can be had — and the government should bear it in mind — by people other than those congregated on the street.
One of those key grievances was the possibility of an immediate election. To this day, I do not understand why anyone would want an election within less than a few months of turmoil like this. I can understand wanting one. I very much can. But to be more free and fair, immediate, 14-day, and 30-day dissolutions of government are unreasonable. This is to the benefit of everyone. Remember, the last time a Thai election was so snap, it was boycotted by key political parties. Why? Probably many reasons, some good, some not. But perhaps some were aware that snap polls are dangerous and not very “free and fair”. People may remember this and be apprehensive.
Of course, if I only wanted to topple a government, perhaps 14-day house dissolution would appeal to me.
However, if the real demand — as, for many, it certainly was and is — is for a growth of democracy, political participation, and political access, then 14 or 30 days is simply too soon. Politics takes time. Campaigns take time. Developing policies and a manifesto takes time. Emergency situations take time. Many people who sided with neither Red, Yellow, nor even the coalition government, felt this.
It is difficult to see why PM Abhisit should have, or would have, given in to a “genuine grievance” demanding immediate or near-immediate elections — which is where the author begins. The timeframe initially offered by Abhisit was perhaps too long. The timeframes initially proposed by Red Shirt negotiators were certainly too short. To begin a round of criticism by only looking at the timeframe proposals of PM Abhisit is going to end badly. Whatever we may think of later developments, I do not think anyone should have caved in to such short-term demands. If we are going to go back as far as the first negotiations, it is worth setting out on the right foot.
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Simon
Your point has been acknowledged by Srithononachai and Somsak but I feel you should by now be acknowledging or at least responding to their argument that
“the properly formed governments of Samak Sundaravej and Somchai Wongsawat faced mass protests by the yellow shirts (actively assisted by the current main government party), who were even allowed to capture the seat of government—”
and it was a
” modern-day version of the city uprising, street-fighting, barricade-fighting a-la 19th century Europe (e.g.1848)”.
In other words the present system of government begats this violence.
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Prof Somsak : “Personally I simply see it as a grave tactical mistake by the Red leadership, having armed elements among them”
This is most likely to be a result of the failed songkran protest last year. When they spread out without proper protection, and got ’round up’(in body bags or to jail), and infiltrated by Newin’s men.
Arms element shouldn’t be in peaceful protests, but when the government is practicing underhanded tactics, and held an iron grip over the media? I’d say it is a necessary evil in this ‘developing’ country.
If the reds weren’t planning for a prolonged protest, I would definitely agree with you that this is a grave mistake. But you see, even the yellowshirts needed armed elements in their siege over the airports & gov house. And they have friends in very high place, if what we see is of any indication.
The reds should not associate with MIBs, but to overlook their usefulness is also a GRAVE mistake on an observer’s part.
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Finally! New Mandala is available from inside Thailand again. I was getting withdrawal symptoms
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Ben // Jun 8, 2010 at 7:25 am -21
In a proper democratic society, there’s no such word as too early or too soon for house dissolution, look at UK or Japan for example. Furthermore the red’s demand of having Abhisit resign within 1 month and having new election in 3 months is more than realistic and achievable.
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Will there be any bloodshed if the government agreed to an early election, say 3 months? I am sure Apisit would not last for 3 months without the help of a powerful hands behind him. Human right is also a tool of this powerful hand. This group is a joke in Thailand. I can only say, shame on them! The same with some other institutions which have been used as tools to get rid of elected governments, like some high ranking judges. All these institutions were used as tools to keep their power. But when all these tools failed they will use the army to seize the power. But don’t forget what happened to Indonesia and Philipines, all the dictators in those two countries were kicked out at the end. It doesn’t mean that when you are in charge of everything you will win. What important is to learn to release when things are too tight. Voices of freedom are loud and clear, they can be heard far beyond the heaven.
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I am quite certain, based on reading reports and on talking to many people, that the armed ‘Men-in-Black’ among the Red Shirts are not just (as you say) ‘renegade soldiers killing another band of renegades on duty – soldiers willing to kill soldiers’. They were really part of the Redshirt rally – this doesn’t mean that most ordinary Redshirt folks who attended the rally knew or approved of their being there. But they were there, (from what I can gather) with ‘arrangement’ with certain elements within the movement’s leadership.
A lot of people “were there” including the paid thugs and killers that pass themselves of as Thailand’s military. Including disaffected member of same, wolves in sheep’s clothing among he reds.
There is no shortage of people willing to jump in front of the redshirts’ parade and claim to be its leaders, from Thaksin on down to murderers like these. But sayin’ it, “even” when the Bangkok Post says it, don’t make it so.
The redshirts represent the mass movement of the Thai people, they are a secular movement that will remain until their needs are met. People will come and go claiming to be the “leaders” of this movement which, given the utterly corrupt nature of the Thai political class, is genuinely bereft of genuine leaders and is now, I hope, in the process of developing its own leadership, bottom up.
The Democrat Party, if one were to believe its label, ought to be the natural leadership for the Thai people. But the Democrat Party has been a fraud since its inception, apparently, and is “constitutionally” unable to betray its own class interests to serve those of the people.
The aggressive wielders of war-weapons are simply not the Thai people, not the redshirts. They are connected in one way or another to the traditional, aggressive, anti-people groups in Thailand : the military and/or the police. Aided and abetted by the bureaucracy and “elite”.
Which brings us to the crux of the matter. The minority is able to prevail because they have a monopoly on violence within the country. They are its exclusive authors and beneficiaries. Unless and until the Thai military and police are effectively destroyed and reconstituted there can be no rule of law, no people’s government in Thailand.
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Somsak- re- so-called “armed elements among the red shirts”: it has not be ascertained (and may never be) who these very small contingent were, or who sent them; however, my understanding is that they were either (a) a small group of disaffected ex-or enlisted soldiers/militia who were [truly] red and wanted to take control of the nazis in the military as they were intent on crushing unarmed protestors, or (b) agents provocateurs sent by Abhisit to create chaos as an excuse or justification for a heavy crackdown. Remember, if this paramilitary element were that well armed & numbered then the casuality rate on the army side would have been much greater than the few casualities we were told about. Neither can we say the leadership endorsed such tactics, which is unfair statement, other than ensure adequate defensive measures were in place around the barricades; you seem to want to have a “bob each way” on this issue…Lets not be distracted from the state’s sanctioned massacre of protestors who were within their rights to call on an illegally installed puppet government to step down, (and which rightly should have stepped down immediately under such a mass protest involving millions of people…): recall-
“It doesn’t matter one person or one hundred thousand (protest), the government should consider either resigning or dissolving parliament.” Current puppet PM Abhisit Vejjajiva (อภิสิทธิ์ เวชชาชีวะ), when in opposition during Yellow Shirt demonsatrations against the then elected government, 31 August 2008
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Khun Leeyiankun #22
If having the armed M-i-B is a consequence of drawing the lesson from last April, then it’s the wrong lesson drawn. It is, in my view, extremely counter-productive politically to have them. Had it not been for the armed M-i-B, the Red movement would have been in a strong position politically ritht now. Instead the gov used of lethal force had not provoked much resistance-protest among people in the middle, largely because of these armed elements the Reds themselves had, while claiming to be ‘peaceful protests’.
Besides, frankly, how can you be certain that, for example, the M-i-B were not the first one to use live ammuniton on the night of 10 April, thus provoked the response in kind from the troops? Or, to take another famous example, how can you really be certain that the man holding up the flag who apparently was the demonstrators’ first dead casualty on that night, was not really the result of ‘friendly fire’ (i.e. the M-i-B shot him by mistake, as he’s turning around facing the Reds instead of the soldiers and was shot on his forehead)?
I’m not a pacifist, not even a ‘peace activist’. I still maintain my sypathy for the CPT’s armed struggle of the 1960s-1970s. But the used of arms in unban struggle, during political protest that claims ‘non-violence’ as its motto is political suicide. It didn’t really ‘protect’ the rally, in fact it only provoked heavier deployment of lethal force by the gov, which the protesters, however armed, would not be able to counter, and which would reult – and this is my strongest objection – in lost of lives of innocent demonstrators them selves.
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The past 40 years (1970s-2010) have witnessed a mass movement, resulted in direct violent by the Thai military and the manipulation by the Thai network monarchy against democratization process. Thai people have never been free to define their own state, nation, and constitutional character in recent political history. The failures of power structure reform and constitutional reform have resulted in political violence and instability.
The centralism of power in the institution of the Thai monarchy where military’s loyalty is placed only to the king has made it impossible for Thailand to achieve democracy. It fact, it offers the possibility for the network monarchy to manipulate events behind the scene, hindering grassroots socio-economic and political progress. The events of 1973, 1976, 1992, 2010 offer rich and diverse lessons learned that the Thai network monarchy is, in fact, fear of democratization process. As a result, the use of violent means to install the status quo ante has never been hesitated; the absolute power in the use of force and decision-making can only be in the hands of the network monarchy.
Leading experts and scholars in the rule of law, conflict analysis and prevention, and constitutional reform, etc. need to address this underlying force. In my opinion, federalist principle of the Republic is the solution to Thailand’s instability in the south, the north, the northeast, and Bangkok. Until the existing power structure be reformed toward federalism, basic human rights will never be possible in Thailand.
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john fracis lee #26 writes:
The redshirts represent the mass movement of the Thai people, they are a secular movement that will remain until their needs are met. People will come and go claiming to be the “leaders” of this movement which, given the utterly corrupt nature of the Thai political class, is genuinely bereft of genuine leaders and is now, I hope, in the process of developing its own leadership, bottom up.
nice sentiment, but it’s just factually wrong. The Red Shirts are a mass movement alright, but they are still largely a movement mobilized and organized by (what I’d call) Thaksin-Phua Thai networks. Most of Reds came from the provinces, mobilized throught Phua-Thai MPs or local supporters (“หัวคะแนน”). And the leadership is firmly in the hands of Thaksin-Phua Thai network.
The issue of armed M-i-B is ultimately connected with this problem. Or, to be more precise, with the ‘style of leadership’ of Thaksin himself (the style that is quite well-known among informed observers since the days of him being in government). Let me give one example. Remember during the early days of the rally, the UDD leaders came on stage to denounce Se Daeng and the so-called Red Siam? But Se Daeng never really went away. In fact, he still direct the manning of barricade of the rally. The most important example concerned another Red mistakes during this rally, the case of the ‘storming’ of Chula hospital. After the ‘storming’ the UDD leaders ordered the barricade removed, but it was quickly set up again. On whose order? None other than Se Daeng. Now if he was really cut off from the movement, how come he was still able to give order? The answer: because he had direct contact with Thaksin. And even if the UDD would want him go away, they wouldn’t be able to do it.
Another similar example, the case of the Red Siam. While the UDD stage denounced it, during the early stage of the rally, there was a ‘small stage’ set up in front of the UN building. Each night, Jakkraphob Penkae would ‘phone in’ to that stage, and there were speackers sympathatic to the Red Siam, speaking each night. At first the UDD ‘big stage’ ordered ‘guards’ to remove this ‘small stage’, but it stayed put. Why? Because Jakkraphob has direct link with Thaksin.
The point of the two cases is: Thaksin works this way. He has his key supporters competing among themselves (like a CEO has his executives competing) and he would keep them all, especially now that he’s in exile and would gladly accept all the help he can get.
Now, from what I can gather, the armed eleemnts (‘M-i-B’) were connected with Se Daeng, and men around him. Even if the UDD majority leaders would have liked – and this cannot be sure – to see him go, or even if they would have like to keep the rally really ‘non-violent’ – unarmed, they wouldn’t be able to chase away these elements.
But that the UDD leaders themselve knew of these armed elements and that they were part of the Red rally, cannot really be in doubt (pace Jim Taylor #27). Not only the Asia Time online report (quoted by Tettyan #16) or the Dan Rivers’ report the other day, confirms this. But during the course of the 2 moths rally, the Red Shirst Guards were able to catch (alledged) plaincloth gov agents almost weekly. They never managed to catch any of the ‘M-i-B’
The point is, leadership of the Reds is in the hands of the Thaksin-Phua Thai network. But this ‘network’ itself is hetorogeneous, just like in the olf Thai Rak Thai Party’s days when there were different factions (มุ้งการเมือง) working and competing for Thaksin.
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Somsak Jeamteerasakul – 28
“how can you really be certain that the man holding up the flag who apparently was the demonstrators’ first dead casualty on that night, was not really the result of ‘friendly fire”
I actually got the clip where they compared 2 events side by side, one from the protester side right at the moment the guy was shot, and another was the army side where you can hear the shooting, since post links will got filtered out decided not to put it here yet, anyway, the clip where the guy got shot and the military side shooting, you can hear the shot perfectly synchronized. Anyway, I was at Phan Fa during the 10th I got there around 8pm where some fight already broke out, and as Nick’s said in another post, the fight took place on various location, so I couldn’t confirm whether the MiB show up somewhere else, but I didn’t see any of them until very late in the fight around 10:45 where 2 – 3 of them appear near Phan Fa, while between 9:15 – 10:00 there were stream of injured carried out of soi adjacent the Phan Fa bridge, when after the MiB appear and disappearm the soldiers retreat and the fighting subsided.
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Not sure Somsak is correct on “leadership of the Reds is in the hands of the Thaksin-Phua Thai network”: it is far too diverse though they are all unitred in wanting to restore grassroots democracy.
Regarding the black shirts, this may help readers have a better understanding: (NM please get some of these RS youtube speeches translated for readers otherwise the story will forever be one-sided!)
Jatuporn speech on 13 May, the day SaeDaeng was murdered by state instrumentalities:
“(Deputy PM and chief manager of the violence) Suthep: you have 50 “siiwichai” thugs (i.e. PAD’s so-called “warriors”) wearing black similar to our own barricade guards and you have prepared police vans waiting so what are planning to do? Are you going to take photographs and claim that it is us doing something violent? Watermelon soldiers saw these people wearing black – just like our guards (many of whom) are ex-tahaan Phraan (ทหารพราน; rangers, former counter insurgency trained unit from Pak Thong Chai: Des Ball is an authority on this militia).
So now soldiers & black dressed villains/guerrillas (โจร) joined hands under the management of this government. I don’t their task, but uniforms/equipment is ready, vehicles ready, so what are you (govt) going to get up to now? If anything happens involving black shirt people then come and check the faces and see if they are the same as our guards. The second group of one 100 soldiers from regiment 11 are ready to act (against us). (And) observe closely the (planted) security guards at the shopping malls: They are likely to burn these places and then accuse the Red Shirts as justification for suppression of the protest movement. People ask me if I will reconcile with the govt. I have been hunted and attacked wherever I go…So ask the govt, not me…”
See: 2010 05 13@2241 RedMarch จตุพรแจ้งข่าวนักรบศรีวิชัยชุดดำ&ทหารเตรียมเผาCTW
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Not sure Somsak is correct on “leadership of the Reds is in the hands of the Thaksin-Phua Thai network”: it is far too diverse though they are all united in wanting to restore grassroots democracy.
Regarding the black shirts, this may help readers have a better understanding: (NM please get some of these RS youtube speeches translated for readers otherwise the story will forever be one-sided!)
Jatuporn speech on 13 May, the day SaeDaeng was murdered by state instrumentalities:
“(Deputy PM and chief manager of the violence) Suthep: you have 50 “siiwichai” thugs (i.e. PAD’s so-called “warriors”) wearing black similar to our own barricade guards and you have prepared police vans waiting so what are planning to do? Are you going to take photographs and claim that it is us doing something violent? Watermelon soldiers saw these people wearing black – just like our guards (many of whom) are ex-tahaan Phraan (ทหารพราน; rangers, former counter insurgency trained unit from Pak Thong Chai: Des Ball is an authority on this militia).
So now soldiers & black dressed villains/guerrillas (โจร) joined hands under the management of this government. I don’t their task, but uniforms/equipment is ready, vehicles ready, so what are you (govt) going to get up to now? If anything happens involving black shirt people then come and check the faces and see if they are the same as our guards. The second group of one 100 soldiers from regiment 11 are ready to act (against us). (And) observe closely the (planted) security guards at the shopping malls: They are likely to burn these places and then accuse the Red Shirts as justification for suppression of the protest movement. People ask me if I will reconcile with the govt. I have been hunted and attacked wherever I go…So ask the govt, not me…”
See: 2010 05 13@2241 RedMarch จตุพรแจ้งข่าวนักรบศรีวิชัยชุดดำ&ทหารเตรียมเผาCTW
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I dont think it is Thaksin-Peur Thai that control the redshirt movement
the trio Veera, Jatuporn and Nattawut are the ones the reds listen to and follow with Weng, Arisman, Seh Daeng, etc as also leaders
most reds respect Thaksin and see him as their hero that woke them up to their opportunities but these days he has been giving encouragement rather than instructions
in many respects the organisation is democratic, it tolerates considerable diversity but recognises the mechanism of decision by majority for moving forward
the yellows, military, etc find this hard to understand, they follow the “efficient, effective, autocratic” organisation style where differences of opinion cannot be tolerated, people, processes and actions cannot be criticised because their edifice might crumble
democracy is a mechanism for dealing with free speech and action and resolving this diversity with a decision by the majority hopefully when its needed
for example, in every democracy, the time of an election is a time of tension, those currently in power have to put themselves on the line and risk being thrown into the wilderness.
everyone knows that the majority decision may not be “right” but it has to be accepted and those that lost need to be “reconciled” to the result and make the best of their life within the system.
If they really want they can work to try to convince the “majority to vote for them next time.
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Tarrin // Jun 8, 2010 at 10:57 am
1 month and 3 months with the coalition government as the interim government perhaps would have been as reasonable starting point (or even something reasonable to cave in to). But again, not even 1 month was the original demand. So why would we start an argument by saying that PM Ahbisit should have just given in to the original Red Shirt negotiator demands? That’s silly. Everyone knows that there was a critical situation created by mass protests. Bearing in mind what happened at Songkran last year, this rapidly turned into a crisis situation. Under such circumstances, if we want to increase political participation, political access, and democratic values, a snap dissolution and poll is not going to help much.
And the non-protesters are not going to be happy (and rightfully so) if, per chance, there were still a mass occupation of parts of the city while the government is promising to quit. That too is a “genuine grievance”. The prime minister could not give in to immediate or near-immediate dissolution.
I’m not sure what you mean by a “proper democratic society”, but my idea of democracy is not only voting, representation, and getting things done. It’s also getting even time and timeframes to help political participation to the core. Everyone knows the original Red Shirt offer did not do that (subsequent ones, perhaps, first ones, no). Everyone should be willing to have time on democracy’s side. Whatever we think of the need for/good of fresh elections, it does not help to begin an analysis by glossing the timeframe point and saying Abhisit could have just given in.
P.S. In the UK, where I live, parties have a general, year-round idea when an election will be called (i.e. a few weeks before the Queen’s speech). In Canada, where I’m from, in 2008, the Governor General (i.e. the Queen’s representative, the representative of the Head of State) refused snap polls because the political climate was still bad. This is what happens in the democracies I’ve lived in. I would expect the government of Thailand to behave as responsibly as the government of Canada if the political climate (and in this case, also the security climate) were not yet favourable. I would expect them to say, “wait a bit, we want this to work”. Whether that’s why they said “longer” is another matter. But I certainly don’t want anyone caving in to immediate or near-immediate elections in an extreme political climate.
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Who were black shirts (#34, part 2): Somsak, et al,
About 500 former tahaan phraan openly joined red shirts in udorn on 31 January 2010; one 73 year old named “Sgt Major First Class” Supot Muangkut interviewed claimed he was training red shirts to be guards, to manage the flow of human traffic and take care of the money collected. They did not use violence. He said the picture shown to him from media were Black shirt soldiers who looked professional. Now, a probably reason why Saedaeng was killed because he knew these former tahaan phraan as he had asked them if they wanted to join; so he could tell who they were.
Anupong went earlier to Pak Thong Chai to offer Baht five million (instead of Baht thirty million owed). They were not paid and the state forgot about them. Many had suffered during the communist times and no one paid any attention to them. In total there were around 900 tahaan Phraan divided into three groups: one ground joined ex-Korean veterans based in Bangkok; second group based in Khorat, and third group based in Ubon. All have to take loyalty oath to serve nation-king-religion. The former tahaan phraan would not have access to weapons. Not all former tahaan phraan joined Red Shirts; some joined PAD before (Tahaan Phraan was dissolved about five years ago). While Des Ball said they are “thugs for hire”- many actually were simple/patriotic rural folk who wanted to serve the king and nation. Since its disbandment it was up to the individuals as to what they wanted to do. Thus Saedaeng had to be killed because the state wanted to plant its own professional Black Shirts among the reds. So after Saedaeng died “black warriors” appeared; well trained, well armed and they did not hide from view. They presented to media as belonging to red shirts but were in fact professionals on government side. It is not hard to tell the former tahaan phraan for those of us who went to the protests from the pictures of the Black Warrior killers. If Saedaeg had not died he would have been able to differentiate tahaan phraan from professional militia sent by Abhisit to kill protestors.
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David Brown // Jun 8, 2010 at 5:10 pm
everyone knows that the majority decision may not be “right” but it has to be accepted and those that lost need to be “reconciled” to the result and make the best of their life within the system.
For the sake of clarity, I would like to point out that in a multi-party parliamentary system, this is not strictly true. We do not have to accept the “majority decision” as to the ruling party. We only have to accept that the MPs form a government, usually along initial party lines (and if we dislike their party-changing or politicking too much, we don’t vote for them again!). For example, the current UK government is a coalition of Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, which many people did not expect would make a viable team — but nothing was wrong with the Liberal Democrats teaming up with Labour and, say, Plaid Cymru (the Welsh national party) and the Scottish National Party (and whoever else they’d need) to form a coalition government. It would have been a lot of politicking, and we may have not liked it in the end — but it would have been legitimate. And if we very strongly dislike it, next time the Conservatives are bound to win a majority of seats!
In a parliamentary democracy, we don’t exactly accept the “majority decision” except at our own MP level. The rest is in the hands of politicians. The idea of “the majority” is, well, a bit of a dream. Sometimes dreams help us on. But sometimes facing the brutal political facts helps, too!
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Jim Taylor #37
So after Saedaeng died “black warriors” appeared
You’re kidding, right? On the night of 10 April when the M-i-B appeared Seh Daeng was still very much alive and well; in fact he sort of took credits for their actions. In interviews, he of course formally denied he had anything to do with them, but also effectively confirmed their existence. You may say he just ‘playing mental game’ with the gov, but you wouldn’t say report of the AT is entirely made up, would you? When he was assassinated on the night of 13 May, the first thing on my mind was: this is the beginning of the crackdown, the gov-military had drawn lessons from 10 April, they killed the M-i-B’s defacto leader first.
Jim Taylor #34
Not sure Somsak is correct on “leadership of the Reds is in the hands of the Thaksin-Phua Thai network”: it is far too diverse though they are all united in wanting to restore grassroots democracy.
and David Bronw #35
I dont think it is Thaksin-Peur Thai that control the redshirt movement
the trio Veera, Jatuporn and Nattawut are the ones the reds listen to and follow with Weng, Arisman, Seh Daeng, etc as also leaders
First of all, I never use the word ‘control’: the word I use is ‘leadership’. I also say quite clearly that the mobilisation and organization of the masses from the province (who composed the majority of the Red Shirts) are the work of Thaksin-Phua Thai network. To deny this is just to close one’s eyes and live in dream land.
Now, about the actual working of the leadership. I know both Jaran and Weng and some other Red Shirts activists close to the leadership personally, and talked with them or people working with them. I had, for example, a telephone conversation with Weng on the night in April (12 or 13 I have to check) before the Red Shirts ‘surrendered’ their rally surrounding the Gov House the next morning. (I strongly suggested to him that they must disperse, not fight, to avoid blood shed.) During this last rally, I also followed closely and talked to people who knew or were well informed of what’s going on among Red leaders, etc – just as I’ve been doing these past few years.
Now, while people like Jaran or Weng may have had some say in the decision, it’s the Thaksin’s people whe were really in charge. (Who else could have mobilized-organized folks from provinces if not Thaksin’s MPs and local supporters?) Among the top UDD leaders, especially during this last rally, it’s Jatuporn who had a biggest say. Why? Because he had, so to speak, Thaksin’s ears more than anybody else. I could go on discussing this issue, but I don’t think it’s necessary. As I said, anyone who writes as you two did (quoted above), i.e. denying that the Red Shirt movement’s leadership is in the hands of the Thaksin-Phua Thai network, must be living in a dream.
(How much do you think, to take another example, this last rally costed in terms of money spent in organizing and maintaining it? I’ve seen some put the number in hundreds of millions of Baht. I’m not sure how much really, but think that at the very least it must have been in tens of millions. [I've been told that, to organize a 5-6 hours stationary, evening rally then disperse would cost around 50-60 thousand baht. You imagine overnight, 2 months long-protracted rally, with frequent moving around] The donation from the masses or people who attended or support the rally would not cover that amount. I absolutely have no problem with Thaksin-Phuathai network financing the rally (or mobilizing-organizing it). But I insist that, to say that this is just a ‘grass-root’, mass movement with ‘diverse’ leadership, is a romantic / ‘narodism’ fantasy, and not a realistic analysis.) I say again: it’s a movement of ‘grass-root’ mass character alright, but it’s also led-mobilized-organized by one of the major factions of the elite itself.
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Ben // Jun 8, 2010 at 5:33 pm – 36
Actually you misunderstood my point, all I am saying is that if we talk about whether 1 month – 3 months time frames achievable? yes I believe it is, whether Abhisit should dissolve the house? no he shouldn’t IMO, Japan economic situation isn’t good but the PM still wants to step down, that’s the point I want to make.
I’m not sure what you mean by a “proper democratic society”, but my idea of democracy is not only voting, representation, and getting things done
The proper democratic society is the society that have the following criteria,
1. Right to vote
2. freedom of speech and expression
3. Total sovereignty
4. Rule of law
5. Power by the people
Other than number 1 Thailand pretty much lack in everything, even that some people is trying to take away that one right. Furthermore, Abhisit was not being elected by general election, but rather by the help of the military and PM who willing to switch side to clear of the corruption charge, I hope you know something about Newin’s rubber shoot corruption case and how he manage to escaped jail term from the charge. So your statement ” Everyone should be willing to have time on democracy’s side” is not going to fly because we are not talking about normal democracy here. However, I still insisted that Abhisit shouldn’t dissolve and I’m glad that he didn’t, not because he was elected democratically but because I believed that voting will not give you a proper democracy, which some of the red seems to think that way. Actually I have to thank Abhisit that he brought in tanks and sharpshooters to killed those 88 Reds so they could stop asking for new election and really fight for proper democracy this time.
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Ajarn Somsak #13
Your understanding of my statements is correct.
Do you plan to write a systematic English-language article on the protests?
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leadership of the Reds is in the hands of the Thaksin-Phua Thai network
That various people show up at a redshirts’ rally, funded by whomever, and cause trouble does not somehow make them the “leadership” of the redshirts. The government shows up and causes untold trouble as well and they are certainly not the redshirt leadership.
Even when Thaksin was PM he was riding the secular, people’s movement, not its leader. A lot of people were ready to back him because his political acuity yielded them more direct results from the government than they’d every had. He can be given “credit” for demonstrating to the people their own political power by exploiting it. But he was not then and is not now the leader of the people’s movement. He is a surfer on the wave.
Prem said of the military that it is “ridden” by politicians but owned by the king. I think it’s more nearly the king who is ridden by the military, contrary to what Prem said. The people have been ridden by the politicians forever, most winningly by Thaksin, but they belong to themselves, they are the true sovereigns of Thailand. I hope they soon throw their would-be riders. I think it’s too late for HM the King to throw his.
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All the pro – PAD / Democrat bunch seem to insinuate that the problems with Thailand started with Thaksin. They also seem to think that anyone asking to analyse the real problems as being Pro -Red and in the pay of Thaksin….
Breaking News…. that’s not true…. troubles in Thailand started long before Thaksin… coups happened before Thaksin… and people looking for more balance view with historical (recent 2-3 decades) perspective are not on the payroll. If they are, I am still waiting for my cheque!
Just have to repeat this until it gets thru to their thick heads.
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There were so many deaths because of two reasons: 1) a grenade was launched against the soldiers; 2) the protesters resisted the soldiers.
The grenade changed everything and brought in deadly force from soldiers. Soldiers aren’t paid to parse out international law in the heat of battle. Snipers were brought primarily because of these Ronin. Please, everyone, stop blaming the soldiers. They are exploited just like the red shirts.
The real violence was how military generals, the elite, and the monarchy throughout the sovereignty of a majority with a coup d’etat, banned political parties they didn’t like.
I don’t have a problem with how these soldiers acted. Imagine this happening in China? Even in my own country it wouldn’t have lasted this long.
The problem is that Abhisit is not a democratically elected leader and thus had no authority to stop people from “breaking the law.”
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That’s “threw out” not “throughout,” sorry!
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Thanks Somsak J. for trying to keep these NM readers honest and the fact that the Reds movement “moves” primarily because of Thaksin, through his agents.
Not that it will help with people like Jim Taylor, David Brown and John Francis Lee . . . I bet these three could continue on with their fantasy posters nevertheless.
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Somsak#40 “Now, about the actual working of the leadership. I know both Jaran and Weng and some other Red Shirts activists close to the leadership personally, and talked with them or people working with them. I had, for example, a telephone conversation with Weng on the night in April (12 or 13 I have to check) before the Red Shirts ’surrendered’ their rally surrounding the Gov House the next morning. (I strongly suggested to him that they must disperse, not fight, to avoid blood shed.) During this last rally, I also followed closely and talked to people who knew or were well informed of what’s going on among Red leaders, etc – just as I’ve been doing these past few years.”
Curious: I am half the globe away from those leaders. So I claim absolutely no “inside” info. But I have talked to several people who claim similar connections to those leaders, a few even closer than phone calls and Jaran. That is, they are in similar position like Somsak for access to info. Yet, what they told me are so different from Somsak in regard to 1) the leadership and its relationship to their organized supporters and to their “mass”; 2) the relationship with Seh Dang and the MiB issue.
So I have people in similar “positions” to the source (in this case, those leaders), Somsak included. I put aside the delicate details to judge who is more or less credible than whom. Suffice to say that all claim to own the truth — those who disagree/ dispute “must be living in a dream”. Yet, their “truths” are so different.
(The above paragraph assumes that the “leaders” is a single entity, a unanimous source, who spoke the same voice wand choices of words. If they are very diverse, please multuply by thier factors.)
I do NOT think that some tell the truth and some lies. I see no reason why these people have to lie. Instead, I believe that ALL (or most of them) mix facts/info and their interpretations in reporting to us as “facts”. “Facts” and “info” are shaped instantaneously at the moment they are informed, thanks to their own perspectives, presumptions, biases, politics, and so on.
Think about those differing journalist accounts. For sure, some simply lie to their readers as instructed by their bosses. But I believe that many are simply so human that they reported what they witnesses as “facts” while in fact those direct experiences went through their perspectives, ideology, biases, politics, instructions from their bosses, and so on, and result in certain words, many of which reflect their thought-process but are not bias-free or ideology-free. Then readers, government, red-supporters, yellow-supporters, read those accounts, add more interpretations and views of their own. The rest is “history”.
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Prof Somsak, I think you saw Seh Daeng’s posts on Samesky, didn’t you? To me,he was a little loose in the head, and can’t be taken all that seriously. His webboard is even more bizarre, and most of his claims can’t be proven/or even possible.
Before anyone uses Seh Daeng’s claims as proof, keep that in mind, that it might not even be true.
IMO, I think Seh Daeng tried to muscled in to claim some part of the reds crowd for his political party. And thought that the crisis was a major chance for him to grab. Sadly, he didn’t walk away from it alive.
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Thongchai #47
Well, I actually have no quarrel with what Thongchai says in principle about people who experience the exact same things could still look at that same experience and those same things differently, and thus ‘report’ / relate them differently. That’s just normal, isn’t it? But then he writes:
Yet, what they told me are so different from Somsak in regard to 1) the leadership and its relationship to their organized supporters and to their “mass”; 2) the relationship with Seh Dang and the MiB issue.
Since he says not a single word how what he was told are “so different” from my version/interpretation of those issues, I have to throw up my arms in despair. I wonder why he doesn’t enlighten us a bit, especially regarding the key issue of my contention above, namely that leadership of the Red Shirts movement is in the hands of Thaksin-Phua Thai network?
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Thongchai is correct in his retort to Somsak. To argue that the Red Shirt movement is financed outside by Pheu Thai/Thaksin is ridiculous, naive and puerile. If Somsak had been watching the PTV live broadcasts he would see the fund raising activities (of which I, and tens of thousands like me, also contributed) and amounts collected…It sounds like a piece of fiction and spin from the likes of The Nation and ASTV (aka- government mouthpieces)! Somsak wants to be devil’s advocate but is standing on shifting sands. Had he been talking to Red Shirt protestors over the past four years he would know the fundamental reason why they are there and what motivates them to continue to protest despite personal hardships and loss of life. Dr Weng said to an interviewer from the ABC on this very question “was he paid by Thaksin” responding saying words to the effect “what price is human life?” – people were prepared to die Somsak not for some pathetic elitist liberal version of democracy: but basic rights, voice and political participation denied by your amaat friends. So what do these amaat want so badly that they are prepared to do anything, lie, cheat, and kill? They want a return to directed democracy at best, where right wing intellectuals, bureaucratic elites and aristocrats were to give direction and take control over what they saw as a runaway and misunderstood democracy (under Thaksin’s grassroot policies). But importantly, it entailed losing their personal benefits. They were prepared to take the country back more than fifty years to post-war authoritarian politics to achieve this end: to meet their own selfish needs. To many observers it was disappointing to see how some six years of economic growth and stability under Thaksin could be thrown away at the whim of a relatively small percentage of self-serving centre-dominating interests
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Ben // Jun 8, 2010 at 5:33 pm – 36
Well, my earlier post get filtered out, I guess I was being too sarcastic so NM didn’t let it trough. Anyway, you misunderstand my point, I didn’t say that Abhisit should dissolve the house, I said that 1 month – 3 months house dissolution is a realistic offer, but I didn’t say that Abhisit has to yielded to the offer.
I’m not sure what you mean by a “proper democratic society”, but my idea of democracy is not only voting, representation, and getting things done.
Proper democratic society should have a following 5 criteria.
1 Right to vote
2 Freedom of speech and expression
3 Total sovereignty
4 Rule of Law
5 Power by the people
Thatland lacks almost all of that, except number 1 maybe. When you say “Everyone should be willing to have time on democracy’s side.” it just not going to fly like what you said since Abhisit did not become PM from general election but from power brokerage by the military and helps from Newin who switch side due to the fact that he’s being charge with the “rubber shoot” corruption charge. Switching side to Abhisit will guarantee him walking free. This is the not “time on democracy” that I want Thai people to be in.
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Jim Taylor:
To argue that the Red Shirt movement is financed outside by Pheu Thai/Thaksin is ridiculous, naive and puerile. If Somsak had been watching the PTV live broadcasts he would see the fund raising activities (of which I, and tens of thousands like me, also contributed) and amounts collected…It sounds like a piece of fiction and spin from the likes of The Nation and ASTV (aka- government mouthpieces)!
Honestly this kind of ‘argument’ almost make me LoL (well, actually just smile). I don’t expect anyone to be so naive here.
- First of all, let me REPEAT again that I ABSOLUTELY have no problem with Thaksin network giving money to organize the rally. Jaran himself said so in the dying days of the rally, that money came from the like of Thaksin, Sudarat Keyuraphan, etc. So Jaran himself is “ridiculous, naive and puerile” too?
- About watching PTV. I’m almost certain that if there were ranking for those spending most time watching live (and taped) broadcast of Red rally, I must be up there among the top! In fact, I probably watched what’s on the Red stage more than a lot of people who attended the rally in person themselves (I sometimes went to the rally sites too). This is not strange as a lot of people just attended in person but hardly followed what’s going on the stage, I, on the other hand, have always been VERY interested in the contents, the styles , etc of the stages of political protests. So please don’t be that naive to site this against me.
- Now let me give some example about the financial logistics of organizing rally. A Red Shirt guard, according to a testimony to police and from what I heard myself, was paid daily expense around 500 Baht. Now if there were, say, 1000 guards. The total expense for guards in A SINGLE DAY ALONE would be half a million Baht! (You do the math for 2 months!) When there was sometimes announcement on stage that certain persons had generously given donation of 100 thousand Baht to the rally, the crowd usually went wild with loud applaud (as they should). I remember – do you? – an important case when last year, the name of Anuphong Phaujinda’s daughter (yes the Army’s Commander in Chief’s) was read on stage for giving a donation of 100 or 200 thousand baht to the rally. But what most people usually didn’t realize is that such ‘big’ donation would not even cover the cost of guards in a single day alone (not to mention many, many, many other expenses). And, as can be expected, there’re not that many donation with such large amount: usually each donation would be around 1000 baht or several thousand baht. Even MPs usually gave in tens thousands baht not hundreds thousand baht. (I mean what’s announced on stage, how much, if any, they gave unannounced cannot be ascertain.)
(There’re a lot of similar expenses like this. Say, petrol expense. As every knows, this rally moved a lot, in HUNDREDS of motorcycles, trucks, etc. The individual drivers didn’t get any money for driving around, but they were paid for petrol (not cheap these days!). I don’t have the number but can imagine one trips cost in hundreds of thousand of baht.)
So, Jim Taylor, who’re speaking ‘fiction, spin’ or “ridiculous, naive and puerile”? Actually if I were, so must be people like Jaran and a lot of observers. Sometimes the naivety of Red sympathizers (especially farang on this website) really astonish me, really. I AM one sympathizer too of course, but I’m also a realist and prefer realistic analysis to political point-scoring or propaganda.
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Suppose the rally in Bangkok were in fact the creation of Thaksin.
Then suppose that instead he had decided to keep “his” money in his pocket.
Then there would have been no rally.
Would there then have been no redshirts?
I say there certainly are now and would have been.
I say there were redshirts because
1. the government they elected was overthrown by the Thai military in 2006 and their rule continued then and until today.
I say there are redshirts becsuse
2. the government put in place by the coup has refused their call for elections, rules by the abrogation of law and by Thaksin’s Emergency Decree through out their 23 provinces in Thailand, and is seeking to permanently disenfranchise them to prevent their assuming sovereign power in future.
The redshirts, together with the armed minority’s opposition to the redshirt’s cause, is the driving force in Thai politics today and Thaksin, Newin, Sonthi, Abhisit and all the rest are seeking to ride the tiger in one way or the another for what they see as their own interests.
The redshirts have no friends among any of these, these are certainly not their leaders, and the sooner they realize that, the sooner they set about following the excellent example of groups like Hamas and Hezbollah in creating their own, democratic, non-governmental, government and nurturing it until it is of the size and strength to replace the “elite” government itself, the better.
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Speaking of financing political activities, it may be of interest to readers who seriously want to understand the present day politics to point out one of the reasons why recent years have not witnesses more political activity by students, as in the past. It’s simply because it cost a lot these days to organize one. A single evening rally (18.00-24.00) , as I already indicated, would put the cost into several ten thousands baht. And I’m speaking here of a VERY ‘bare-minimum’ rally, i.e. one without good, big sound system, without live video broadcasting, without hired tents (all these were of course features of the Red, as well as the Yellow, rallies).
Or, to give another example, it didn’t cost much to publish journal or magazine in the 1970s, so much so that the student movement those days were famous for publishing and distributing what was known as ‘One Baht Journal’ (หนังสือเล่มละบาท), i.e. a journal sale for one baht each. These days to publish a single issue journal or a booklets would require several ten thousands baht at least.
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Somsak #52, you should not believe so naively in what Jaran [seemingly] said (in contradiction to the other core leaders), or in what a red guard may have said (under coercion? or distortion?): there is so many lies and innuendos spread around by the amaat that it is making everything fuzzy. The maths, as you mention, would be best to take the sum not the divisible parts, and reflecting wisely rather than jumping to a hasty conclusion. Why would certain interests (including you) want to try and link Thaksin to everything? maybe to reinforce the ludicrous “terrorism” charge? Maybe regurgitation of an amaat myth on Thaksin may look sexy but it is hardly able to stand up in a rational and fair court of law. The fact that Thaksin’s finances have been frozen, along with many of his supporters even before the recent freeze in bank transfers makes me wonder about the financial plot and the calculus necessary in such a constrained environment…1 (informant) divided into 1,000 [guards]=what? If I were to conduct a statistical survey and talked to one informant and drew a conclusion on this -I would not have any credibility…Perhaps you could make you own position clear, instead of trying to juxtapose two positions according to convenience of truth and to shift ground when/where the wind turns
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Now today’s The Nation item: “RED SHIRTS FIRED ‘TEMPLE SHOTS’” is very interesting.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/06/09/national/Red-shirts-fired-temple-shots%22-30131188.html
In the April 1oth Red riots, one video clip showed one Red protester his brains blown out by a shot clearly coming from the direction of the Red camp. Then there was that notorious ‘fake-dead-Reds’ (see video at http://www.siampolitics.wordpress.com). And now this latest Red atrocity against their . . . the massacre of Reds at the Rachaprasong temple committed by the Reds.
The Reds are a shoot-them-up-any-which-way Isan cowboys, intent on raising the Red body-counts. Shoot them dead, fake them dead, and massacre them dead.
The three amigos Jim Taylor, David Brown and James Francis Lee would be tearing their hair at this ‘smear’ against the ‘pure Reds’, eh? Specially James Francis Lee who seem enamored of that Prachatai’s unsubstantiated story of unreported ‘piles of bodies’ at Rachaprasong .
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Jim Taylor #55
Somsak #52, you should not believe so naively in what Jaran [seemingly] said (in contradiction to the other core leaders)
Seriously, what motive would Jaran have, to lying about Thaskin, et al financing the Reds? Other ‘core leaders’ who are politician followers of Thaksin are more reliable, are more unlikely to lie on this matter, then?
It’s the Reds’ ‘sympathizers’ like you that make the movement less credible, by irrationally trying to deny what is not only undeniable, but unnecessary to deny. (Sadly there are a few here.)
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Human rights and democracy do depend on the direction you approach them from. In the West where most countries have working democracies of sorts the majority of citizens probably vote around the centre, from centre-right to centre-left. In the UK for example this would include most of the Conservatives, all the Liberals and almost all of the Labour Party. The centre-left of most European countries are parties whose roots are in the old pre-WW1 Second International.
Now those from the above views would mainly be able to agree on minimum needs of democracy and human rights. Once we start looking to the extremes on both the right and the left we would see a divergence from this medium position. An extreme Buddhist royalist would probably not see democracy in the same way. Likewise a Marxist-Leninist in the traditions of the Third or Fourth International, again would not see either of these issues in the same way and would be able to justify quite extreme actions in the furtherance of the cause, as would the royalist or fascist of course.
This is one of the problems on New Mandala. I suspect many people posting comments are from these later traditions like Trotskyism or is it Maoism again. There is nothing wrong with being a follower of these, but it does make for strange arguments. Poor Professor Somsak can go from hero to zero because he isn’t following the required line. How often are comments telling us that black is white or suchlike because that is the propaganda line that is being pushed by Giles or one or the others.
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Somsak – 54
Or, to give another example, it didn’t cost much to publish journal or magazine in the 1970s, so much so that the student movement those days were famous for publishing and distributing what was known as ‘One Baht Journal’ (หนังสือเล่มละบาท), i.e. a journal sale for one baht each. These days to publish a single issue journal or a booklets would require several ten thousands baht at least.
Being one of those that bought up the lack of student involvement in the red shirt movement, I do doubt the reason for lack of mass student participation is due to organizational costs. After all Facebook is virtually free, and we still see student participation in other countries with similar cost factors. For whatever reason, the students were just not won around to the UDD line. Whether this is the fault of the UDD or the students, it may be best to get the answer from your students.
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Del – 57
Nation is like a sub-branch of ASTV, you should take their word with a grain of salt. Moreover, this unnamed witness record goes against all other record provided earlier by the other people and journalist who were actually there during the 19th-20th
http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pundit-blog/what-happened-at-wat-pathum-wanaram
There is a clips that shows that there were at least a platoon strong of soldiers with pink sticker on top of BTS tracks, if this “unnamed” witness account is any logical, then what were the soldiers doing?? why dont they arrest or shoot at the gunman???
Moreover, about the clip that you were talking about, there’s no way you know where the shot is coming from from the clip alone, you just assumed that its from the protester’s side, but you forgot to take into account the bullet doesn’t necessary came from the direction he faced, the bullet could hit the side of his head or at any angle, we only know that all the upper part of his head was blown apart, it could only be done by a high velocity round at a relatively close range.
So, before you start calling other people amigo, maybe you should carefully observe yourself first?
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Ajarn Thongchai #47.
“Yet, what they told me are so different from Somsak in regard to 1) the leadership and its relationship to their organized supporters and to their “mass”; 2) the relationship with Seh Dang and the MiB issue.”
I suggest that you simply tell us what they told you. That would enable us to compare your version with Ajarn Somsak’s version…
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Del(#56)-Not sure if you are serious in citing that Nation article. To begin with, how can the witness claim the shots “came from red-shirt guards, not soldiers” when “The unnamed witness saw two men gunned down from an unknown direction.” For that matter, how does that appear “to confirm autopsy reports that showed that all six victims were shot horizontally, not from an inclined angle from soldiers stationed on Skytrain tracks or skywalks…?”
Honestly, this article is “very interesting,” but as an example of bad journalism. It also suggests that the DSI sees its job as exonerating the government rather than getting at the truth, which I freely acknowledge I don’t know. DSI should spend more time investigating, and less time doing propaganda work for the government.
Your other assertions are certainly debatable. If you conclude that the guy with the flag shot in the head on April 10 was killed by Red Shirts because of where you think the shot came from, will you apply that logic to the other dead of that day?
And the “fake-dead-Reds” issue is a non-starter. We know that in the heat of the moment some people claimed it showed five dead people, but the matter was quickly and widely clarified and corrected. There is one dead guy, right? Since you are assembling evidence, I’m sure you know his story, yes? Please tell us who he is and the circumstances of his death.
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Tarrin // Jun 9, 2010 at 11:22 am
I don’t think I’ve misunderstood your point? I know you have not specifically said that PM Abhisit should have caved to immediate elections. In that regard, I have been responding to the original post/op-ed (K. Kwanravee’s), which begins a round of criticism by suggesting that things could have been over if PM Abhisit simply offered a sufficiently “short” timetable. Given where the negotiations started and how initially reluctant the UDD negotiators were to raise the timetable, this could imply something silly like saying, “Yes, I’ll step down tomorrow (or in 14 days), now I trust the city will be back to normal without a government tomorrow. Please do.” With what other offer are we sure the UDD negotiators at Day One were satisfied? That is what they proposed, so I assume that if we say, “PM Ahbisit could have ended it on Day One”, then we are saying he could have just given in.
Like I have been saying, he could not have done this. Whatever we think regarding the way by which the coalition came into being, I do not want anyone, within an extreme political and security climate, caving in to demands for immediate or near-immediate elections (as K. Kwanravee suggests could have stopped the protests back on Day One). It’s as simple as that.
You have given written about what we may think of the state of democratic mechanisms in Thailand. I would say your “proper democratic society” is more like the state of the “democratic mechanisms”. There are other things to democracy than political and social mechanisms. There are democratic values. It’s no use only looking at the mechanisms. We need democratic values to prop up and sustain the mechanisms. And we can always deepen these values.
What have I spoken about? I am only talking about conditions conducive to increasing democratic values across the board. That’s a big part of what we want, isn’t it? If we want an increase in democratic values, then the current Thai government must act with a responsible timetable. Perhaps I too easily take this for granted. But I have given an example from two Western democracies. Regardless of the number of years between elections, the UK almost always has elections the first Thursday of May, although the “possibility” is much (51 weeks or 364 days) broader. And in 2008, Canada’s head of state refused the snap polls towards which the minority government and majority opposition were heading (she said “work it out or take more time, but you may not do this right now”). From my personal experience, the UK and Canadian governments I’m familiar with have acted with responsible timetables. I note that this has reasons related to democratic values, political access, and political participation. Immediacy and the threat of immediacy may not promote helpful values. Amongst many other things, they may contain a very strong and immediate element of motivating fear for everyone. Surely this is also true in an extreme security situation! There are many people involved in this who are neither Red, Yellow, nor coalition government. (For example, one of the few things the Multi-colours agreed on was that an immediate election was not the answer — or I may be wrong, I’ve forgotten!) The concerns of these other people regarding a timetable are, to use a phrase in K. Kwanravee’s op-ed, “genuine grievances”. They pertain to real and present dangers. This is what I have said.
If we begin a round of criticism (like the original op-ed) by neglecting the harsh reality of a timetable and saying the PM could just have ended things on Day One, then I think we should be pulled back to the harsh reality before moving on.
P.S. I’m sorry to hear that I didn’t get to see what you wrote previously.
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Del @56,
I am sorry to toss iced water on the Nation’s article, but as a once professional soldier I have seen many people killed by pistols, M79′s etc and none of the people in the temple were killed by any of those, they were all killed by high powered rounds that came from the barrel of a rifle.
So far in all the videos/photos I have seen only the Thai army armed with these.
To add to this I have seen photos of police investigators (not DSI) using string etc to determine the angle people were shot from in the temple. Three of these photos clearly show that the shots came from up high.
Unfortunately the Nation is no longer a reliable source and lost what little credibility it had left when its editor (Thanong) claimed that Thaksin, had cancer, was dead, was dying of cancer, was sick from chemotherapy, the British government had frozen 4 million pounds etc etc.
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Ben // Jun 9, 2010 at 5:59 pm – 64
On whether PM Abhisit should step down within 1-3 months is debatable but I still think 1-3 months is still achievable. You made it seems like if a PM quite the whole country will collapse, that’s hardly the case since the government still retain the ability to run the day-to-day operation just not making anymore decision or project.
About the democratic value, I dont think we shouldn’t discuss about that since many of the mechanic is not in place, let me reminded you that Thailand had seen a fair amount of bloodshed from the crackdown on democratic movement; 1973, 1976 and 1992. I’m more than certain that people, at least among the poor Thais, are well aware of Democratic value that’s why they felt angry and betrayed in the eve of the 2006 coup, that’s why they came out and demand the dissolution of this government because they felt that there were not being treat fairly since the representative that they elected themselves (Newin’s gang) betrayed them.
Now, the point that you raise about how UK and Canada go about their political play is understandable, but this is not the case with Thailand, where we have so many people and organization that doesn’t hold any accountability to their action and those people can manipulated the legislation and the jurisdiction at will. You just can’t compare UK to Thailand in that sense because we are not even there yet, in term of mechanism.
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Tarrin, superanonymous and Roger must be really worried about The Nation article. If they read that article, it says there is A WITNESS. When there is one witness, there are bound to be more because there were lots Reds taking sanctuary at that temple when the massacre (by other Reds) occurred.
After I saw that young Red brains blown out on TV, with the shot clearly coming from the Red camp during the April 10th riots, I am convinced the ‘civil war’ plan so cavalierly announced by Thaksin’s terror-man General Khattiya in his many press interviews, must be deadly real. Thaksin after all never disowned the statement of General Khattiya that he was hired by Thaksin . . . up to the time General Khattiya was assassinated.
The Reds leadership were deadly serious in getting as many followers at Rachaprasong martyred believing with enough Red martyrs would trigger mass uprising and ‘civil war’.
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Del(#66)-Yes, I read the Nation article, but it’s not clear that you did. Try reading past the first paragraph. Please explain how a witness could know that Red Shirt guards, not soldiers, did the shooting, and at the same time not know from which direction the shots came. The article certainly doesn’t explain it. No one is denying they have some sort of witness. But that by itself proves nothing.
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I would always read the Nation with a grain of salt. This paper likes to use the term “our source” to start their lies, now it begins to use the word “witness”. Even if there is no witness, the Nation will create one.
The victims at Wat Patum were shot at about 6 – 7 pm on the 19th when the reds had disappeared from the area after being totally intimidated by govt snipers, who were roaming the BTS track and firing from above.
Now just wait for the results of the investigation, but wait, the head of the probe team is the one personally selected by Abhisit himself, namely a former attorney general. This guy was already well known for siding with the democrats in the land scandal in Phuket during Chuan’s rule.
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Assuming that witness isn’t a plant, I don’t see how his evidence tells us anything at all. Wouldn’t the guards be right to warn people not to go outside, or risk death, considering they were in a gun battle with troops? People that did go outside, or even to the front of the temple, got caught in the crossfire, like Andrew Buncombe. Since the shots could’ve come from any direction, surely it was more likely to be soldiers firing at red guards? If it were red guards, wouldn’t the people in the temple turn against them? I’m sure there’d be more witnesses.
So first we’re asked to believe that the reds started the fires (retrospectively justifying the crackdown because they’re just terrorists that deserve to die anyway), then we’re asked to believe that they shot themselves to gain credibility? So the easiest way to maintain credibility would be not to burn anything rather than shooting themselves. So you’re saying Thaksin planned the arson, but then asked red guards to shoot UDD people? I think he’s a pretty smart guy, he’d know what effect arson would have, and I just don’t think he’s evil enough to have his own supporters shot. You’re clutching at straws in your attempt to defend Abhisit/military.
People talk about Thaksin’s crimes at Tak Bai, Kru Se & so on. Those weren’t Thaksin’s crimes. Those were military crimes. The military didn’t change when Abhisit took power. One only needs to refresh one’s memory of the Rohingya tragedy or even the treatment of the Hmong refugees to be sure of that. I don’t know, what is this? Criticising Thaksin’s human rights record for political points, but minimizing now? No cognitive dissonance at all?
Agree with Somsak Jeamteerasakul’s points on this thread. I’d made pretty much the same assumptions with no insider knowledge (& yes, like him, I’m a red sympathizer).
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This is unrelated to the debate and discussion here but I would love to see what other ppl think about lack of student movements these days, don’t know where I should ask about this
As Somsak Jeamteerasakul wrote about reason of costs as for lack of student protests. I have wondered lack of protests in general among students too but I would not put it as cost factor for what seems lack of student activity, because in the contrary of lets say 1960s and 1970s, publication of materials have become virtually free due to internet. Then taking into account the risen living costs but also INCOME, that 1 baht magazine might cost now 15 baht but same time students would have more money (and again, internet has made publication of materials free).
(Btw, SFT took part in 1992 more visibly than this time)
Now, organizing rally, sound systems etc. actually the (unfortunate?) thing is that this would be an attributed to requirements of hmm lets say pampered and eXperience lifestyles of ours now? Everything has to be bigger and better just to get our short attention!
AND this would lead actually what I have thought about – could the lack of students movements be more a reason of lifestyle and media scene change – we are so bombarded with multimedia messages of consuming things everywhere that you see around you an apathy of interest in politics and social issues of everyday life or long term issues?
Second thing is: is it actually even TRUE the common notion that there is few student movement actions etc? On what basis that is even measured? Just gut feeling? I recognize myself saying that too, “student movement days are over”.
Actually Naomi Klein in her book No Logo touches this subject imho when she details all so many small groups of activists against all sort of issues that there is less traction for “big things” and big movements. This being highlighted in the context of her book. Well her book also talks about the huge commercialization of student environments and environment in general where instead of activity pamphlets on uni halls you see ads for new M-150 taste or brand of snacks. Maybe that is a factor too. I also believe that especially the western situation has gotten such that there is “nothing to protest about” combined with the numbness of senses from all the messages and sleek government media machines, all there is left is some small time pockets of activity groups when everyone else watches new reality show. Thai students having imho potentially much more and big reasons to protest (big exception: Greece, there students are in strike every so often or so it feels)….
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If they read that article, it says there is A WITNESS. When there is one witness, there are bound to be more because there were lots Reds taking sanctuary at that temple when the massacre (by other Reds) occurred.
Did you even read the link that I posted on?? Furthermore, the reason why me and others told you to take Nation’s word with a grain of salt is to exactly prevent you from saying what you’ve said here.
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Tarrin // Jun 9, 2010 at 9:12 pm
Democratic values are not only “known”, they are also “lived”. We become familiar with them by exercising them freely and with less and less fear. In every society, we want to increase these values across the board. If, as you suggest, “among the poor Thais” many people are “aware” of these values — then I also submit that every other Thai, like every other Canadian or British citizen (my own frame of reference), can benefit from practising them with a minimum of fear and a growing amount of respect.
We will never sustain democratic mechanisms without support of democratic values. Social and political mechanisms do not survive — let alone deepen and develop — on their own. If you think many of the “poor Thais” are developing the values of democracy, political participation, and political access: why not operate within timeframes that encourage the rest of people to develop them, too? This is all I have said. Immediacy and fear of immediacy (this fear was very great!) will not help everyone else, who did not demand immediate or near-immediate elections, to develop and freely practise these values.
Real progress is on the front of mechanisms and values at the same time; because both sustain each other — and the values are the ones the average person (which does not just mean UDD or PAD or Democrat coalition) has the most direct control over.
P.S. I did not say 1/3 months was unachievable in itself. I did not directly discuss the goodness of a 1/3 month timeframe. I said the initial UDD negotiator offers were short-term and short-sighted, because, if I remember correctly (if I am wrong, please explicitly correct me?), the very first offers (to which K. Kwanvaree suggests a capitulation was possible) were significantly less than this. They were less than 1/3 months. Isn’t that true? As I have said, I replied to the implications of the original op-ed.
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Del @ 66
You have the simplistic mindset that if you are not for us, you are against us and that anyone who disagrees with what you want to believe is one of those nasty red buffaloes from up country.
I commented about weapons and there effects, which happens to be my area of expertise. I also commented about the Nation and its credibility, or lack there of, which I included extracts, as to why the Nation had lost its credibility.
Why on earth would I be worried about a witness?
People in any sort of military action see things differently, especially when bullets are flying.
Notice I used the word military, what I can’t get through my head is the fact that the Thai military were actually used against Thai civilians. Surely you are not expousing that is normal, in this day and age, to unleash the dogs of war on your own civilian population because they have a different view?
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Well, this seems to confirm that there were special forces on the tracks, plus a ground level fight: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/38495/let-the-truth-be-known-what-happened-at-the-temple
I’m not sure why the incline they were shot at matters, surely they could’ve been shot from ground level (at the front of the temple, as Andrew Buncombe was) – and it would’ve still been likely to have been soldiers. It’s just the simplest and most logical explanation. Obviously the crucial thing to note here is that this gives further credence to the assumption that you should believe nothing that either Suthep, Anupong or Abhisit says.
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Now Yuri and James are as alarmed asTarrin, superanonymous and Roger that there is a witness to the Red guards (who also usually change themselves to Ronins clad in black) shooting massacre of other Reds plus a nurse at the temple at Rachaprasong.
That witness must be very very scared because he certainly knew who those Red guards were and what they were capable of. Other very scared witnesses would be surfacing soon . . .
That General Khattiya was overly talkative . . . and everything he said publicly was on record. He was hired by Thaksin. His job was to foment a civil war and surely enough the Rachaprasong protest degenerated into a full blown rebellion. And there were M79 grenade attacks, high powered assault rifles shootings (and some Reds shot by other Reds too, with malice or unintentional who knows?) and then arson during the crackdown.
And the arsons! Be sure to read FatherJoe’s account of those arsons at http://absolutelybangkok.com/carpetbaggers-or-else/ and his story of mysterious men visiting KloengToey slums to recruit arsonists.
The Reds were riddled by violent radicals . . . encouraged by the Reds leadership to belong in the big family uprising at Rajaprasong. The trail of deaths, bombings and arson were the images deeply imprinted in me, and to the world, by Thaksin’s Reds.
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Mr. V – 71
I’m not old enough to actually what the students in 1973 or 1976 think, I have a vague I idea on 1992. However, I think I have my own theory of why the Thai students are so lack of interest in politic all together and simply blush aside the matter my simple word such as “its boring”
First I look at the history of the country, during late 1950s to early 1970s Thailand was pretty much under military dictatorship under Salit Tanarat and later on to Tanorm and Prapart. The students who took part in 1973 and 1976 protest grew up in the environment where the country was under dictatorship couple with the left-wing idealism from China and Soviet Union was in its hay day. Therefore the drive to change and the ideology to back the movement was very strong. However, today the students are living under somewhat questionable democracy, but still called democracy non the less. The left-wing was virtually non-exist in Thailand political spectrum. The economic growth and globalization made the country more prosperous than the 70s. The students of the 90s no longer has the drive for change since things is already as good as it get, in their opinion and the students mind set and complexity about politic gradually deteriorated over time.
On the social side, the different political value also vastly different. One of the students who took part in the 1976 protest told me that, during those day students who did not carry book written by Lenin or Marx or other reformist around the school was considered as backward and ignorant. While today students who join political movement are being brand as boring and overly enthusiastic or stupid if they happen to align with the red. They will be exclude from their friends if they show any sign of interest in politic, this is my first hand experience by the way.
I could be wrong on my assumption so take it with a grain of salt anyway.
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Del – 75
Let me assured you that we are not alarmed by the Nation’s article because I think we all agreed that the Nation is not credible. Furthermore the whole record from Thai’s authority was not credible anyway since, if you read carefully, the article was based on DSI source. Yeah that ought to add even more credibility to the article.
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LesAbbey // Jun 9, 2010 at 3:41 pm — 58
Thank you for this post. I found it quite helpful. But there is one point I would like to raise in reply.
I suspect many people posting comments are from these later traditions like Trotskyism or is it Maoism again. There is nothing wrong with being a follower of these, but it does make for strange arguments.
Is there nothing wrong? I am not sure. I couldn’t tell. It’s worth asking. It’s worth each of us asking ourselves this.
Only if I’m sure that tinges of Trotskyism or tinges of anarchism or tinges of whatever -ism don’t taint my perception, would I say that giving in to those preconceptions is harmless.
Even “strange arguments” have consequences.
Our preconceptions affect the way we make judgments on facts. They affect what we let into our narrative, and how. And our narrative affects what kinds of actions we’ll take. Many preconceptions cloud our thinking very much & we are not free to make free judgments. We want to continually question those preconceptions, wherever they may be found. The best thing is to always be opening to new facts. I don’t think it’s easy. But then again, if we thought getting the whole narrative truth of a complex situation was easy, we probably wouldn’t be at a place like New Mandala, would we?
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Tarrin // Jun 9, 2010 at 9:12 pm
On whether PM Abhisit should step down within 1-3 months is debatable but I still think 1-3 months is still achievable.
I have not explicitly disagreed. In fact, I’ve offered hints that I agree. But 1/3 months is not what I’m talking about.
You made it seems like if a PM quite the whole country will collapse, that’s hardly the case since the government still retain the ability to run the day-to-day operation just not making anymore decision or project.
If the government quits amidst an intense security situation (and while large groups of people are holding counter-protests which say “do not dissolve right now”), is there a precedent? or are the precedents in favour of a timetable greater than a matter of days (i.e. at least a few months)? They are in favour of timetables on the scale of months. That was a “genuine grievance”.
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Largely missed in this discussion is the obvious point that real gripe of Thaksin and his red shirt leaders against the government is actually that they didn’t kill nearly enough red shirts. A five year old child could see that the main objective of the red shirt protests since April 2009 has been to provoke a much bloodier and more spectacular suppression by the military than they actually achieved this time, in order to engineer a sudden collapse of the government and a consequent power vacuum that would allow Thaksin to come back under an amnesty and resume his reign of plunder and suppression. The key red shirt leaders are not exactly popular revolutionary leaders overwhelmingly supported by their own people. They are in fact Southerners who are reviled in their own provinces and motivated to lead Lanna and Isaan people, whose dialects they cannot understand, solely by Thaksin’s promises of Wall Street style bonuses. No doubt they will refine their strategy and next time will achieve the glorious body count that Thaksin has been fantasising about. The unctious Robert Amsterdam and the rest of the team of foreign legal eagles can then have some serious ammunition to work with.
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Del #74
You might want to read Wassana Nanuam’s latest article in the Bangkok Post:
“Let the truth be known: what happened at the temple”
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/38495/let-the-truth-be-known-what-happened-at-the-temple
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I did read that Bangkok Post article cited by Srithanonchai – #79. PM Abhisit is rapidly moving forward with his reconciliation map, and finding the truth at what happened (before and) during the crackdown, include the temple massacre, is top of his search-for-the-truth mission.
PM Abhisit’s independent fact-finding commissions will more likely uncover the ‘truth’, and, the truth will be very damning. (Reason perhaps why so many PTP and UDD leaders, including the No. 1 citizen of Montenegro Mr. Thaksin Shinawatra, are already bad mouthing PM Abhisit’s roadmap).
But will the remnants of the Reds, and the opposition PTP, accept the findings?
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Ben – 77
Is there nothing wrong? I am not sure. I couldn’t tell. It’s worth asking. It’s worth each of us asking ourselves this.
Much as it can lead to propaganda instead of reason in arguments, it would be a shame if these views no longer had any following, especially among the young. I think that was what I was trying to say.
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Srithanonchai # 79 – was n’t Wassana fired from her job during this crisis ?
I remember reading that, but perhaps mistaken.
Certainly she had a falling out with sections of the military, of which it is her very difficult job to report on and analyse.
Anyhow – good to see she’s back.
A very fine, first-class journalist : a small step perhaps t0wards reconciliation, if she was fired and has now been re-installed.
She’s a genuine Thai gem.
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Ben – 78
If the government quits amidst an intense security situation (and while large groups of people are holding counter-protests which say “do not dissolve right now”), is there a precedent? or are the precedents in favour of a timetable greater than a matter of days (i.e. at least a few months)? They are in favour of timetables on the scale of months. That was a “genuine grievance”.
If you read my earlier post, you will know that actually I have to thank Abhisit for not dissolve the house and actually decide to to crack down and now trying to purge of the red, if you read the news one red leader in Kon Kean and one in Chaiyaphume had been murdered. Abhisit just accelerate the inevitable, thanks to him.
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Chris Beale: No, Wassana was not fired from the Bangkok Post and so she is not “back”. She quit her radio interviewing job in protest over Suthep’s instruction that red-supporting soldiers could not be interviewed, saying that precluded her from being a journalist. She remained on the job at the Bangkok Post.
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Tarrin // Jun 11, 2010 at 1:53 am
I’m sorry, Tarrin, but again I don’t understand what your comments have to do with what I actually said. I do wonder if LesAbbey is right. If I do not follow the “logic” or “reasoning” of a particular tradition, sliding from topic to topic in the “right” way, then something goes wrong. For example, comments in reply to me try to force me to slide from topic to topic in the “right” way.
Isn’t there a more general logic where we can discuss what I really said? Isn’t there a way to talk about a limited topic without sliding onto another one? Why is that not interesting enough? Why, when I point out a gritty fact, is the fact not interesting enough and the reply ends up being about sliding away from the gritty fact, sliding towards the more sweeping propositions of the “party line” and “tradition”? We should question this.
I’m not saying I necessarily disagree with you on this or that point. But I am questioning why your replies to my gritty facts always end up not talking about those particular gritty facts. It’s a bit weird, isn’t it?
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Ben – 86
Sorry that I didn’t answer your question in 84 properly, my reason being that I’m not really interesting in “what time frame Abhisit should use” since our whole argument was that whether the time frame was too short or too long, I think 1 to 3 months is reasonable, you disagreed so I accept your argument, however we both agreed that he shouldn’t dissolve the house. That’s why I just want to cut short our argument there since I want to talk more about the big picture, but if you want to know my answer to your comment no 78 then here is my 2 cent.
If the government quits amidst an intense security situation, is there a precedent?
Looking back in 2006, Thaksin was actually decided to step down and dissolve the house, he was acting as a caretaker, the protester doesn’t quite please and keep protest until the coup, so yes there’s a precedent to that. However, looking back there’s not military intervention, Thaksin never try to disperse the protest. Thaksin never brought in tanks or armed soldiers unlike Abhisit nor with Samak, Somchai, or even Surayuth. We have to admitted that before the event of 10th April crackdown, the protest was relatively peaceful but not until the government attempt to crack down on the protest on the 10th that the situation becoming more intense.
Anyhow, no matter what time frame it is, I still think that its doesn’t matter much if the whole governing system is so broken.
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Abhisit hopes that with the start of World Cup today, people will be less interested in politics and he can easily push his road-map easily among the populace, who receive one-sided news from the govt only. (People Channel TV and community radios still closed while State of Emergency is not lifted yet, at least not until 7 July).
However, Mark will be disappointed coz’ at least there is one person that will continue to talk about politics and no soccer at all. This guy is Khun Pleum from this station:
http://www.voicetv.co.th/content/15185/
In the above footage, Pleum talked about several double standards including the dissolution case of the democrat party.
Pleum Natakorn is younger than Mark in age but education-wise, he is not to be taken for granted though he is not from Oxford. As for his English, Pleum speaks American, instead of British English. Pleum is also a Mom Luang if you know what that means while Abhisit’s ancestors migrated from Vietnam. So Abhisit apologists in this forum, you better watch out.
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Pluem is so elite he hates Thai middle classes with his gut.
He hates they dare to stand up to big money and demand rights and accountability. Meddlesome calamity, ingrates who leech of the wealth created by the likes of Pluem and talk as if they can survive on their own and know everything.
If only they’d shut up the really smart capitalists who are a true blessing to this country with their wits, skills and money, would fix Thailand in no time.
After all, who can take better care of the country’s poor and bridge the gap than the country’s rich? They didn’t become rich for nothing, you know, they have proven themselves and they are so rich they won’t need to steal anymore.
All they need in return is love and loyalty from the poor.
Welcome Thaksin 2.0
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red shirt regional protest leaders (แกนนำ) are being picked off and murdered one by one, latest victims 60 year old from Sisaket Province named Mr Sawat Duangmani (สวาท ดวงมณี) was found murdered two days ago, stangled by his phakama (cloth) and his body dumped in Chonburi with hands tied behind his back. Then 26 year old Mr Sakkarin Kongkaew (ศักรินทร์ กองแก้ว, or “อ้วน บัวใหญ่”), shot as he was driving his car. The current time is incomparable in scale and ruthlessness to anything in Thailand before, based on annhilating political opposition and civic protest against the state. Does anyone out there care? All I read about from academic colleagues is well, it is not comparable to October ’76 (?) Is that right?
Actually we have become colour blind. In my view it is worse and the failure to see this is worrying: How is it then, we may ask, can the death of so many people in a time of high technology when the whole world could see what the military and its parastatal mercenaries were doing, could these deaths of the Red Shirts be rendered invisible, insignificant, even worthless? None among the demonstrators initially thought they would be indiscriminately killed by the state apparatus in this context where the actions of the state could be seen by the world. So they were not middleclass (in the making) intellectuals as in the 1970s -does that make the event less significant? During 14 October 1973 (77 officially killed) and 6 October 1976 (45 officially killed) students and intellectuals lost their lives for much the same thing; a call for popular democracy and the overthrow of the authoritarian state. From 10 April until 20 May 2010 there were an (under-) estimated 88 persons killed – some now saying this is 90, and hundreds still missing; so why no outcry from human rights orgs? Because, I would suggest, most of these folk are seen as the subaltern, especially peasants, and their brown sun-baked bodies rendered valueless in the elite-middleclass discourse on the interpretation of a directed democracy. In one high class women’s magazine a highly derogatory comment was made in a letter referring to the Red Shirts as a group of “foot cleaning-rags” (พวกผ้าเช็ดเท้า), implying that the subaltern should stay down under the elite’s feet. The categories of person based on class are more clearly divided post crackdown as elites gather the moral high ground and the Red Shirts further deprecated by urban bourgeoisie. Derogatory comments were made to the Red Shirts as being “buffaloes”; relegated not just to the lowest level of the human order but to the animal world. The protest was simply discredited by the urban elites concerned with their own power and interests. It is not just colour blindness not to see this- but absolute blindness. So are we gonna now move on from the state initiated ploy to create distraction focussing on Thaksin to real matters at hand? some maybe…
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Thank you BKK Lawyer #84 for that information – all of which is very much a credit to the journalistic integrity of both Wasssana and the Bangkok Post.
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Jim Taylor – 88
Giles don’t you think it may be best to wait for some indication who carried out the two murders?
Also best not to play the numbers game on the day that leaks from the Khanit panel indicate that 1,200 killings of drug dealers were carried out by the red shirt’s friends in the police. With another 1,300 deaths to be accounted for it will make for a number of unlawful killings unequaled by most countries in the post-WW2 period.
Some more quotes for you.
Charnchao Chaiyanukij said yesterday that the Khanit na Nakhon panel found that former interior minister Sermsak Pongpanit, acting on the orders of former prime minister Thaksin, ordered all provincial governors to submit a blacklist of drug dealers and runners within seven days.
Charnchao said many provincial governors had testified to the Khanit panel, set up by the Surayud government, that a shoot-to-kill order was issued internally among high-ranking Interior Ministry officials. “The governors then relayed the orders to provincial police chiefs to follow,” he added.
Of course the Stalinists will so very good, a bullet in the back of the head will solve most problems.
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Jim Taylor #88 :
Re :
im Taylor // Jun 12, 2010 at 2:20 pm
“red shirt regional protest leaders (แกนนำ) are being picked off and murdered one by one, latest victims 60 year old from Sisaket Province named Mr Sawat Duangmani (สวาท ดวงมณี) was found murdered two days ago, stangled by his phakama (cloth) and his body dumped in Chonburi with hands tied behind his back. Then 26 year old Mr Sakkarin Kongkaew (ศักรินทร์ กองแก้ว, or “อ้วน บัวใหญ่”), shot as he was driving his car”.
Can you cite some sources which have reported this happening ? Where are you getting your information ?
It is highly likely this is happening, given Thai history – but where is your evidence ?
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Jim,
I think relevant to the killings in the “war” against drugs
I keep thinking that the Border Patrol Police, who seem to be implicated in (carried out) lots of atrocities, for example in the “war” on drugs
are not really police, are not under police control?
the BPP are listed on both the Defence and Police websites (a nice ambiguity, matrix management=no responsibility) and in their history they were closely associated (perhaps commanded) with the Palace (for example Vasit whatever his name is)
so are they more military or still actually a 3rd force reporting fairly directly to the palace and perhaps privy council Prem?
do you have any insights on where they sit and whether any one actually controls them?
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Jim Taylor – found a report about these murders at The Nation
(Royalist website!). Can you cite other reports ?
By the looks of it, these murders are NOT happening in Isaanr or Lanna. The “Thai” does not dare, I guess.
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Les Abby #90 : “Some more quotes for you.” Please give source. Quotes are useless unless a source that may be checked is given.
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Chris #91, info on Prachathai (ประชาไท; Thai version):
http://www.prachatai3.info/journal/2010/06/29964?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+prachatai+%28%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B0%E0%B8%8A%E0%B8%B2%E0%B9%84%E0%B8%97+Prachatai.com%29
Much of the best independent information can be found on this web site, and other sources that are listed in “Thai-enews”. They try to translate important docs, and some sites in Thai and English are available on the right hand site (where these are not blocked)/
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Thanks Jim – very much appreciated, and will pass it on.
You’re obviously the real Jim – and not that fake one which a previous poster was trying to allege was Ji !!
Thank you for your information and integrity.
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Chris, Jim
Bangkok’s English-language papers are understandably quiet about this rural killings. But don’t worry much as they are useless anyway.
An sms service from media sources like VoiceTV and Lok Wan Nee reported the murders one by one, now totalling three persons already. These sources also reported on Chatuporn challenging Suthep to swear at Wat Phra Keo that the government was not involved in these killings.
Btw, Somyot will be released soon following strong pressure from int’l labour unions.
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Michael – 93
Les Abby #90 : “Some more quotes for you.” Please give source. Quotes are useless unless a source that may be checked is given.
Happy to. Charnchao Chaiyanukij, a member of the inquiry board, being quoted by the Nation. Link below.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/06/12/national/Killings-were-crime-against-humanity-30131407.html
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What is there “understandably quiet” about murder ?
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Thank you Les #96. Pleased to have this link.
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LesAbbey #96, Michael #97
If you could read Thai, perhaps this provides more details than the Nation’s report:
excerpts from Preliminary Report on the Thaksin’s war on Drugs policy by independent panel chaired by Khanit na Nakhon
http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1276264478&catid=02
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Good news, Somyos has been released and his interview about his illegal detention is carried by thaienews. Those who understand Thai can see from the interview how desperate this Mark govt, which depends its existence on a law called State of Emergency so as to stay in power longer.
This govt also wants to muzzle its critics, including by trying to re-buy the Thaicom satellite from the Singapore company Temasek. See below:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/telecom/181132/government-pursues-plan-to-buy-thaicom
Pls read the comments given by the readers too.
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Somsak – 98
Thanks for the link.
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Somsak #98: Thank you for the link.
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Les Abbey #97
(are you, like Vichai N, employed by Webair International, or some other similar agency paid by CRES to troll these blog comments? just asking, yes or no?)
and Somsak #98
As I recall, the Border Patrol Police, see my comment #92, were involved in many of the killings reported in the War on drugs
If so, is it really clear that the agencies most responsible for the killings were under a command that was controllable by the PM? or in fact perhaps were agents of “higher authorities”?
Perhaps the monarchies apparent approval of the War on Drugs could be relevant to at least some of the unfortunate results?
If this is so then any investigation mounted in Thailand would be unable to arrive at any definitive and fully satisfactory result due to legal restrictions on their scope of enquiry and ability to publish relevant evidence?
Such consideration might explain why the government refuses to permit international assistance to any enquiries because it is aware that almost any investigation results published in Thailand would necessarily be so limited.
In addition, the government might need to formally advise the international investigators they might find it necessary to produce minority reports that could only be published outside Thailand and the individuals involved might not be able to visit the country again.
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David Brown – 102
(are you, like Vichai N, employed by Webair International, or some other similar agency paid by CRES to troll these blog comments? just asking, yes or no?)
Just answering David, no. But are you going to go through all the threads and pick out anyone who isn’t following the party line and ask them the same question?
It’s a bit silly as of course I could do the same by asking if people are on Thaksin’s payroll or maybe asking if they belong to the same party as Giles.
Shame you didn’t query the quotes in comment #90 as to whether Thaksin had given the order for extra-judicial killings. Still you are correct to say that many people involved in, or supporters of Thaksin’s war on drugs, but not supporters of Thaksin now, could be embarrassed by an inquiry. Mind you that doesn’t absolve the main architect, Thaksin, and ‘just following’ orders is not an acceptable excuse for the policemen involved in either the killings or the line of command.
Now what should bring up David is the killing of Seh Daeng which was obviously an extra-judicial killing. I wonder who gave that order and whether anyone will own up to it. Are we looking at the military or the government, or both. So off you go David, see if you can get to the bottom of that one instead of trying to defend Thaksin from his accusers, because they are not going to go away.
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Les Abbey. It seems probable but is by no means certain that the murder of Seh Daeng was an extra-judicial killing. There was plenty of motive to have him taken out both for reasons of revenge for the murder of Col Romklao and to lessen potential resistance to the final assualt on the red enclave at Saladaeng. This could have been discretely ordered by CRES high or even done on the private initiative of a senior field commander. On the other hand it is also possible that an opposing red shirt faction had him taken out. Seh Daeng had his own small band of armed militia around him at Saladaeng but he never approached the larger group of black shirted militia that hung around the Four Seasons Hotel and stored their weapons in the police box in front of it. This was clearly another faction that he had no direct control over and no doubt there was at least one more faction of armed black shirt rebels operating in the area. Since the black shirts clearly comprised acting and/or retired military personnel who were trained in the use of weapons and happy to use them for pay, it is quite possible that black shirt factions not under Seh Daeng’s control had the capability to perform the assassination. Things were obviously quite tense between the different red shirt factions after Thaksin vetoed the main leaders’ decision to accept the road map. In addition there may well have been disputes about remuneration and not paying assassins and armed mercenaries what they think they have promised is a dangerous game. Another interesting question that will probably also never be solved is who ordered the failed assassination of Sondhi.
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Who benefited the most from the assassination of General Khattiya, a.k.a. Seh Daeng?
Or the same question from a different viewpoint: Had the overly talkative General Khattiya been alive and was captured/arrested, who do you think will he name as the Supreme Maestro of the Reds terrorist rampage during Black May 2010?
You got it David Brown. Who else but Thailand’s Supreme Maestro of 2002-2003 extra-judicial anti-drugs killings notoriety, Mr. Thaksin Shinawatra.
(But there were many with strong motives and urgency who surely wanted Seh Daeng killed. Somebody somewhere I recalled said, it was just a question of who got to him first.)
Who or what is Webair?
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Portman – 104
Del – 105
Now it’s very rare that I defend either the UDD or Thaksin, but you do have to put the army and the government at head of the suspects list on Seh Daeng’s assassination. You have to look at the most obvious first. Whether it was revenge by Romklao’s friends or a deliberate attempt to remove the military leadership from the UDD’s guards, the finger is still pointing in the direction of the government and/or army.
Now what is another question all together is whether a high body count this year was always an aim of Thaksin and the UDD leadership if Abhisit didn’t resign.
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Just ask Al Capone, it’s always the money trail that does you in.
Worth having a look at what the DSI is leaking today.
http://bangkokpost.com/news/politics/38876/rally-billions-uncovered
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“Sihasak Phuangketkeow, Thailand’s Ambassador to the United Nations Office in Geneva was named on Monday as the newest President of the UN Human Rights Council.
The UNHRC is the panel formed in 2006 to tackle human rights violations worldwide….He was the candidate of the panel’s Asian members.
Sihasak told the Council in Geneva Monday that he wanted to concentrate over the next year on how members can use their “rich diversity” to forge a more united agenda on key human rights issues……Sihasak was former Thai foreign ministry’s spokesman and deputy permanent secretary.”
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/06/22/national/Thai-ambassador-chosen-as-new-head-of-UNHRC-30132138.html
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Just a recap after lots of detail to and fro:
Abhisit and his government are in power because of the Palace/Privy Council and the Military working to preserve their traditional power.
In March to May the redshirts rallied demanding elections. Abhisit offered elections in November, the redshirts did not trust his promise so demanded earlier election or submittal to legal charges relating to killing by the military as a sign of good faith. Abhisit’s deputy tried a trick so reds rejected the offer.
Abhisit cutoff two further negotiation attempts by Sukhumhand and the Senators, the military brought in snipers and killed 80+ foreign and local journalists, medicos, protesters some armed at most with slingshots.
In all this only 2 soldiers were killed, one “rogue” general, actively assisting the redshirts, was shot from above while standing being interviewed by Thomas Fuller of the New York Times, the other apparently by “friendly” sniper fire. A further 800+ protesters and a few soldiers were injured. The redshirts surrendered and as yet unidentified people burned apparently well insured buildings in Bangkok.
Thaksins government was elected in 2001, re-elected in 2005 and after being severely challenged by yellow shirts “protecting the monarchy” again in 2006. Being accused of all sorts of things including “interfering in the military reshuffle”, surely the right of a democratically elected government with mandate of the people, the military deposed Thaksin while he was overseas addressing the UN.
In 2007, the military created yet another Constitution, imposed martial law and sent soldiers around the country but Thaksins allies still narrowly won the election.
Having failed with direct force the elites/military funded further major (yellow) protests and enlisted the aid of the judiciary to dissolve the Thaksin supporters party and Abhisit became PM.
Now Abhisit is intent on destroying Thaksin and his redshirt followers with extreme censorship, gaol and vigilante actions around the country including killings.
Abhisit’s “Reconciliation Roadmap” is his attempt to convince everyone to reconcile to the traditional elites/military controlled government and to delay elections until all the country is “reconciled”.
Now all communications by or sympathetic to the red movement and Thaksin is censored and suppressed while the government works to brainwash its people and the international community.
I would claim its the wealthiest 10% (or 5%?) unwillingness to accept the electoral cycles that is the symptom and real issue for the Red Shirts… amazingly enough Thaksin was the first PM to actually run full term… his performance threatened the pattern of elections and coups
Now when Abhisit claims things are back to normal(cy) he means back to the old pattern of election results being overidden by the amart/military and the military out in the regions trying to “educate” the recalcitrant locals to accept dictatorship by the elite
Replace this pattern by regular elections with all sides accepting and working their best to win elections with no military interference, this is what Thailand needs!
Quality comment or not?
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