From The Nation:
[Abhisit] said Thailand could only spend the next year to explain to Unesco about its objection to Cambodia’s management plan of the Preah Vihear world heritage site that might violate Thailand’s territorial rite over the plot Thailand regards as its land near the temple.
“uneducate people”
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“ถ้าถึงเวลาผมไม่ลังเล” ผมพูดได้เท่านี้ ไม่สามารถลงรายละเอียดได้
มาร์คลั่นอยากได้ “ปราสาทพระวิหาร”
Sat, 2010-08-07 14:46 (Prachatai News)
Today, Aphisit announces, ” I want to have Preah Vihear.” มาร์คลั่นอยากได้ “ปราสาทพระวิหาร”
He also said, “I will not hesitate to use force when it’s time.” ถ้าถึงเวลาผมไม่ลังเล
At issue is if the war were to happen between Cambodia and Thailand over territorial disputes and Preah Vihear. What should everyone in the Asia Pacific do? Would it escalate to get everyone involve?
During the Cold War, Thailand was afraid of the Soviet Union’s backing for the Indochina countries. Now, in the post-Cold War world context, the network monarchy government (military, monarchy, and Aphisit government) is confident to pursue the “showdown” option with Cambodia because Cambodia has no backing and Thailand’s military force is far superior.
Does the Major Powers countries realize that the escalation of Preah Vihear by Thailand is correlated with the Hegemonic Challenge’s intention. If the strategic planners behind “Preah Vihear” escalation intend to link the territorial conflict to the larger strategic objective in challenging the Hegemon (USA) when the Hegemon is weak. (The U.S. economy is in trouble, its military force is close to over-extended, and its homeland security is in danger.)
It seems to me that analysis of Southeast Asia based only on domestic politics is insufficient to understand the underlying international strategic force. What I am trying to say is that what is going on in Thailand is not a natural phenomenon.
If the phenomena are man-made, we need to know more about PAD, e.g. who are the international actors behind PAD. PAD is playing nationalism as a catalyst for war with Cambodia, and with the support of the military, the monarchy, and Aphisit government. This is serious!
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Andrew, I think you are being a little unfair though I did see the point of drawing attention to the “uneducate” poster. Though I’m a native English speaker with a liberal arts degree, I still often find myself thinking phonically when I type. My most common error is to write “there” instead of “their”, though I do actually know the difference! Nearly all Nation staff are native Thai speakers and I, for one, am grateful to them for turning out an English news service in Thailand, the country in which I have made my home. That I rarely agree with their editorial line is beside the point.
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มาร์คลั่นอยากได้ “ปราสาทพระวิหาร”
Sat, 2010-08-07 14:46 from Prachatai
“ถ้าถึงเวลาผมไม่ลังเล” ผมพูดได้เท่านี้ ไม่สามารถลงรายละเอียดได้
“When it’s time I won’t be hesitate,” said Aphisit.
So this means Aphisit has “war option” in his thinking.
Wow, this’s getting messy!
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Sceptic-You ought to loosen up. You are correct, everybody makes typos, but in this case, it was an uncannily appropriate one. That was clearly the point. I don’t think it’s unfair to mention in a blog what you would certainly point out to your colleagues at lunch, or whatever.
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As superanonymous points out, my point was not to make fun of a typo. I make plenty of mistakes myself.
What I found interesting was the idea of a “territorial rite”. At present the crazies in the PAD and the government are involved in a fascinating, but very dangerous, public ritual.
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Be careful, comments like this can be used by those who disagree with you to undermine your more serious points.
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superaonoymous #5. Sure I’ll stay loose. Actually I don’t feel uptight about it at all and, yes. it is quite funny. I just think one needs to remember that nearly all these people use English as a second language – just listen to Tulsie in his video duets with Yoon. And I think Sam Deedes makes a valid point; otherwise I have nothing but praise for Andrew’s and Nick’s excellent site.
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Susie Wong, I hope you’re wrong. So far I don’t see this as anything more than a fundamentally internal political issue: ie Abhisit needing to make sure he gets the Yellows fully on-side before the elections due next year. He needed to give them a little red meat just to satisfy their appetite. While the whole business of not just permitting but actually taking part in such a rally while the SoE is still in place is very dubious, Abhisit seems to have very astutely turned a difficult situation to his political advantage. The fact is that the Yellows are in reality no less than a fringe section of the “Democrats” (I use inverted commas advisedly). In the end they really have nowhere else to go unless they succeed in hijacking the “Democrats ” completely. I agree with you that it is nonetheless a game fraught with potential dangers and which could ultimately have serious regional/international consequences.
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I think that the PAD are in charge of The Regime in Thailand. Not in terms of “serious” business : not in the day to day graft. But they get what they want when they want it.
This whole ultra-nationalist binge started out as a sideshow to try to put the last elected elected government in bad odor, then morphed into a handy means to keep real issues off the front page in the compliant Thai MSM… or so the Democrats thought.
Now the PAD, having been given inch after inch, are pushing for the mile. The military has probably convinced itself that it can win a war with Cambodia. The PAD are pushing in that direction. What’s going to stop them… Abhisit?
If Chamlong wore a red shirt he’d be on his back with a bullet in his forehead, instead it’s… ‘ “When it’s time I won’t be hesitate,” said Aphisit.’ Abhisit’s job description is doormat.
Things seem totally our of hand in Thailand.
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Thai sabre-rattling over Preah Vihear has become a kind of fascism barometer. International law is so clearly on the Cambodian side that whenever the issue is raised, the international community recalls the lawless Nazis goose-stepping into the Rhineland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, and beyond.
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Suzie Wong #2 re:
“Now, in the post-Cold War world context, the network monarchy government (military, monarchy, and Aphisit government) is confident to pursue the “showdown” option with Cambodia because Cambodia has no backing.”
1) Hun Sen is backed by Vietnam – there is no way Vietnam will allow Hun Sen to be defeated – or even suffer humiliation which could lead to his overthrow.
2) “and Thailand’s military force is far superior.” Not compared to Vietnam, it is not !
Hun Sen’s troop could easily hold the line against Thailand (remember many of them are battle-hardened Khmer Rouge) against Thailand’s inexperienced troops, until Vietnamese reinforcements arrived.
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Is this going to be Thailand’s version of Sudetenland?
I’m almost certain that the Dem dare to wage a war with Cambodia just to flame Thaksin as an instigator.
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This comparison with the Sudetenland is almost completely inappropriate.
The Sudetenland was a sizeable chunk of Czechoslovakia, where a substantial German majority lived. Many – probably the majority – wanted to unite with Hitler’s Reich.
Hitler obtained the Sudetenland by international agreement (though this meant the major powers sold out Czechoslovakia).
The area disputed between Thailand and Cambodia is tiny, few live there (and those that do are mostly a Cambodian influx, at least according to the Thais).
What international agreement there is seems to be swinging Cambodia’s way (i..e reverse of Sudetenland’s story), with UN approval leaning towards Cambodia
Even if the disputed 4.5km was taken over by Thailand, it is highly unlikely this would lead to Cambodia’s dismemberment, whereas the Sudetenland conflict did lead to that fate – very quickly – for Czechoslovakia. Vietnam is highly unlikely to sell-out Hun Sen.
Moreover, the United States has recently started joint military exercises with Cambodia. Hun Sen’s son is a West Point graduate.
There are too many dissimilarities, for the Sudetenland issue to be a useful historical comparison.
But it is a good example of how such inappropriate comparisons from European history are sometimes mistakenly applied to very different situations in Asia. And highlights to some extent, the great difficulty of applying Euro-centric, Western-derived social science notions to a particularly unique history and society such as Thailand.
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If Abhisit thinks the Vietnamese would turn a blind eye to his territorial aggression against their ally I think he’s sadly mistaken.
Thailand, as usual, will bite off more than it can chew.
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Peter Tudders – I completely agree with you.
But despite this, and all I’ve written above, I do agree with Tarrin’s second point, namely that :
“I’m almost certain that the Dem dare to wage a war with Cambodia just to flame Thaksin as an instigator.”
It is quite likely Abhisit will respond to PAD pressure by launching a border skirmish.
The primary aim of this would be internal, not external – i.e. to drive another nail into the Thaksin/ Red Shirt coffin by a “rally-in-support-of-our-Thai-Nation” in the face of foreign threat, while simultaneously holding the more extreme Right-wing
(PAD, in this case), at bay.
An up-dated version of the rallying cry for national unity during Thammasat massacre ’76, when “Vietnamese agents” were falsely alleged to be inside the campus, and the relatively “moderate” military leadership launched their coup to pre-empt more extreme Rightists doing so.
This time though, the risks of such a gamble going wrong are far greater.
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Sceptic # 3
I find your assertion that “nearly all Nation staff are native speakers” well off target. Even such luminaries, such as Thanong Khanthong, cannot be, in all seriousness, regarded as native, or native like speakers. But this is beside the point. If ‘Thailand’s territorial rite’ wasn’t as intriguing as Andrew Walker states I’d be rather inclined to say that The Nation’s sub editors are of questionable standard as well. Needless to say, I stopped purchasing this daily nearly half a decade ago. I am not thankful for their very existence, nor dependent on their work as a source of information in the Kingdom of Thailand.
chris beale #14 states that “… comparison with the Sudetenland is almost completely inappropriate.” Here I am in full agreement with him, as Thailand cannot be possibly compared to Third Reich and Hun Sen is thus no Konrad Henlein.
Otherwise, I’d like express my gratitude for the last paragraph in the comment # 2 of Suzie Wong. PAD (Thai Patriot Network) and Privy Council deserve our attention as they reign Thailand by ‘invisible hand’ that rather resembles giant Kraken’s tentacle of Pirates of the Caribbean fame that is hard to grasp and impossible to cut off.
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Where is Marshal Pibul? We should be uniting Laos to Thailand and annexing the Shan States. Forget Preah Vihear. If the Khmers want it so much, dynamite it down into Cambodia.
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chris beale – 14
The reason why I compare this event to Sudetenland is not because it is similar to the current situation, I know too well that there is nothing to compare because there are so much different in intention and the territorial involved. However, Sudetenland is what start it all, the event raise Hitler’s confident about moving forward with the annex of Czechoslovakia and invasion of Poland because Hitler’s was convinced that the Western power will let him do whatever he want as long as there is a chance of negotiation. The reason why I mention Sudetenland was because this little useless strip of land might be use for a reason to escalated what seem to be just a little border dispute into an all out war much so with the WWII start with Sudetenland.
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Despite the gentlemen who currently run the government went to the wrong college – “Here is my first principle of foreign policy: good government at home.” William E. Gladstone
Can I remind the incumbent government that the job of government is – true to its word – to govern, not to join a jamboree set up by any political organisation. Instead of getting involved in those futile public debates, wouldn’t it be more prudent to have a re-talk with PAD leaders? The government knows full well what PAD’s agenda is.
Prae Viharn is a political issue which needs to be handled by professional politicians. This is different from a “Social Reform” – an issue affecting the social and economic life of electorate. All those public debates or discussions are counterproductive to bring about policy solutions.
As usual, Khun Chuan won’t be getting his holiday this year.
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Abhisit, like Kasit cuts his words to suit his cloth, what plays to the fahrang doesn’t play at home.
Mark now needs to choose the lesser of two weevils. To lose face with the international community or lose face with the domestic one.
I suspect international barami may be regained with time and shaky memories. He has way too many masters to satisfy at home.
Strangely it appears most of the population don’t want a war or give a toss about a pile of stones in Isarn.
It’s the lunatic fringe he’s pandering to, because they have all the influence. That’s the crazy thing about Amazin’ fin de siecle Thailand. And hold on to your hats because there’s plenty more crazy to come as the glue comes unstuck.
I believe I have used up my “inappropriate metaphor” quota.
My call? Definitely a “game” – lots of fun until someone gets hurt.
Then again it was all smiles and laughs with Hun Sen a few weeks ago…
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Launching an attack against the Khamer at PV Temple is an ill-conceived and poor way to drum up internal support for the Democrat Led coalition for a number of reasons.
First, in any war there are unintended consequences. The generals in Argentina thought invading the Faulklands would be a walk in the park. Needless to say, the end result was their defeat at battle and shortly thereafter their control in of the Argentine state.
Other examples include the US suttorted majahudeen in Afganistan who eventually became the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.
Along these lines, who is to say that the Khamer response to an attack at PV would not result in a counter attack at Hak Lek or Khong Yai?
Then of course, there would be an internal reaction within Cambodia. Look at the provious riots against Thai Banks, the Thai Embassy, and other Thai interests in the past to get an idea of what would happen if the Democrat Party/PAD pursues the present course which has a military option according to Abhisit.
Is 1.8 square miles of territority worth loosing all curent and future business interests within the Territority of Cambodia?
Then there is also the international community which would look very unfavorably towards a Thai military incursion to the disputed (disputed only by the Thais) territority. The internationl community has already firmly and unequivocally stated that the Temple of PV belongs to Cambodia. Most observers would also believe that in order to maintain the World Heritage site, that Cambodia would have to build and maintain an administrative office and the residential compound of the personnel that would be necessary to clean, maintain, deal with customs, policing, and so on in the area immediately adjcent to the temple.
Should such an incursion occur, what are the likely international consequences? Would they be worse than disregarding international pressure to resettle the Hmong? or forcing the boat people back out to sea in disabled boats? or using Snipers to clear out oppositon party protestors?
Will Thais always be able to advance the argument that it does what it does because of Thai Exceptionalism and that those without Thai genes will never understand that what Thais do is ‘correct’ and if you don’t agree well then they will send a delegation junket off shopping to correct the impressions of Brussles, London, or Washington.
Sadly this issue is over a piece of land that is completely unimportant to any national interests. There is no gold, no diamonds, no strategic pass, on important military use in PV.
This is not true with say Arun, or Had Lek (both important trading routes).
So why would irrational Thais risk damaging so much of value when there are so many other areas that Thais can exploit to their hearts content.
The Thais could of couse cut the road to PV. The Cambodians wouldn’t care but the local Thais living near PV who are or were dependent on tourists visiting PV for their livelyhood. The Khamer will build access to PV from inside Cambodia.
Perhaps they will erect a high fence and make the Thais go to PV using a regular border crossing.
So how much more blood does Abhist/Padwant on their hands? Is the value of the position worth 5Thai deaths or 50 or 500. And how many Khamer deaths?
What if they were your sons and daughters instead of conscripts from Isan?
Will Abhist lead the charge? or just the rethoric?
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Meanwhile in the local news:
FM Confirms UN has Received Thailand’s Explanation Letter
UPDATE : 11 August 2010
“Thailand’s Foreign Affairs Ministry has confirmed that the United Nations has received Thailand’s rebuttal letter countering Cambodian claims that its sovereignty has been encroached. Meanwhile, Secretary to the Foreign Minister Chavanont Intarakomalsut confirms that Thailand will soon start pushing Cambodians off the disputed area.”
http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/tan/ViewData.aspx?DataID=103335
But we should take a look at at least one historical analysis of the sitution and consider…….
“Preah Vihear’s origins are Khmer, and most analysts consider Cambodia to have the stronger of the competing claims, but the history surrounding the temple is complex. The temple has meaning–both as a cultural symbol and a religious place of worship–to people on both sides of the border. In fact, many of the people around Preah Vihear share broadly common ancestry and were themselves divided by relatively arbitrary national frontiers. The two sides have much to gain from a mutual access agreement. Preah Vihear should be a magnet for tourists and a shining example of cultural traditions that exist on both sides of the border, not a graveyard for young Thai and Cambodian soldiers.”–John D. Ciorciari
http://spice.stanford.edu/docs/thailand_and_cambodia_the_battle_for_preah_vihear/
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I admit I have not been keeping up with Thai news for a while simply because it is too upsetting for me to do so.
But this is very upsetting too – and bodes long term hurts that will be hard to heal for both Thais and Cambodians – and just for the Democrat Party to drum up nationalist feelings and support? Deplorable!
Seriously: is there any other source other than Prachathai on what Abhisit says? Almost none of my family or friends in Thailand has been listening or reading much local news lately, prefering to just watch soap operas or for those who can afford it – IHT or Guardian. When and where did Abhisit say that he is willing to go to war over PVT?
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Of course joint management of the khmer sanctuary as a cultural site for the benefit of Thai and Cambodian khmer descendants and the wider world to appreciate would be the wisdom of Solomon. (Incidentally if the UN threatened to raze it which country do you think would back down on it’s claim in order to preserve it??? )
It would be the sensible, pragmatic, wise, win-win situation but the powers that be on either side do not have the political maturity, vision or strength of character to do it. Which in itself says a lot about politics and “democracy” in Thailand and Cambodia.
Perhaps on second thoughts Shiva should destroy his own temple as a lesson to both peoples on the great losses wrought by greed,intolerance and bigotry.
Would they notice? Would they learn? would they ultimately care?
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I found 30+ plus ways ‘right’ could be spelt in my unabrigded Oxford. ‘Rite’ is one of them. Superstitious politicians of Thighland have had one rite too many. Especially if their ethnic of origin is Khmer. The Chidchobs of south Isarn. For Somdej Hun Sen’s political statement during the last Khmer election, the two words were almost synonymous. As for the PAD and AV glovernment, Dr. Samuel Johnson’s cynic definition of patriotism may fit NM’s taste: the last refuge of the scoundrels.
As for the disaster in The Nation it is a major in a Thai college.
There are four erroneously written ‘rights’ for ‘rites’. Shaksperian was one about nature.
Tarrin, for touristy Thailand and Cambodia this is no barren land where two bald-headed guys fighting for a comb.
Poor AV was takenly out of context by Ms. Suzie Wong. AV’s counter- blood rite of 91 + 2000 thereabouts didn’t appease his lust. Khun Jatuporn and the likes malaciously took AV apart during the rallies with this misquote:I will listen to one Sombat or 100,000-strong Red Shirts I will resign or dissolve the house. 100,000 was a prophecy fulfilled but AV did not agree with their demand. Khun Jatuporn knew AV’s implied condition but went ahead to preach to those who embraced passion and abondoned reasons. Master demagogue had it at 1,000,000 plus those real mouth-watering offerings. And it got repeated many times it became a rite, it seemed.
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denyzofisarn – 27
Tarrin, for touristy Thailand and Cambodia this is no barren land where two bald-headed guys fighting for a comb.
Of cause the temple itself is a magnificent ancient structure that will attract a lot of tourists no doubt. However, in my context, I was referring to the “useless stripe of land” is the 3.4 square km. of land that the Thai government is having issue with.The issue over who own the land surrounding the temple it is what nonsense since no matter who control the land, the only way to access the temple is trough Thailand side and there’s no other likely alternative route. So in my opinion, risking war with our neighbor (and possibility of losing many life of the children of poor families) over this “useless stripe of land” is ridiculous.
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And, one can help but realize the Thaksin factor is up and running. Gen. Chavalit’s advice to our PM. It is undeniable fact that Thailand under Thaksin or his proxies’ rule, Burma and Cambodia were a much happier market places of bear-hugs. These cordial combos had one quintesential item in common: policy corruption.
The recent budget debate and show of air power of the newly-acquired Swedish formidables in the Thai sky spoke volume. The opposition show of force of trying to scale down were not well-substantiated. This is no Black May ’92, to say the least, when it came to killing Thai with taxpayers’ money part of blaming.
I am happy that the ‘ultimate aphrodisiac’ is still in the Rain-maker’s hands.
And, my wish that NM folks would reconsider AV as, ‘a person with whom we disagree as to which gang should mismanage the country — Don Marquis’,demagogue.
Tarrin, those 4.6 sq. Km are mined. I speak from my 10 years’ working along Thai borderlines except Malaysia’s.
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denyzofisarn – 29
The Grippen is no doubt a fine 4.5th generation air craft with a fly-away price below $30 million, but Thailand is buying the plane at almost $70 million each, I think that’s a pretty steep price for a $30 million fighter dont you think?
Tarrin, those 4.6 sq. Km are mined. I speak from my 10 years’ working along Thai borderlines except Malaysia’s.
It was technically belong to us already when Nopadon strike the deal with the Cambodian when he was still the foreign minister, but the PAD fellow ruined everything by reviewing the deal to the public, now the Cambodian knew there were being trick so now they wouldn’t give that land to us, nice going.
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Tarrin 30
There must be some differences in specs. and maybe plus a list of ammo and missiles. I am sure the kickbacks. Thai military officers I came across in the Thai-Burmese border were in in the illegal logging business. No drugs cos the late Gen Bo Mya was very strict about that. He, personally, shot Karens who were drug traffickers. One shot to the leg and one to the head. The same execution for adultery.
The land dispute of 4.6 km is symbolic one. I am quite sure there more areas, along this long border, are in question.The Khmer Rouge villagers were paid to settle on those supposedly land in question.
You know, an AK 47 from China/still in grease was 500 baht in the early 80s. One has to pay about 10,000 bht for a used one along the Thai-Burmese border these days. Remember those Seh Daeng’s men attempted to sell the remaining weapons post May 19.? Their weapons were very likely from Cambodia. The Khmer Rouge still have these large stockpiles of weapons given by China during those few year of their brutal rule.
Going back to the topic. The last time I quoted Dr. Samuel Johnson’s cynic definition for patriotism of PAD and AV as ” the last refuge of the scoundrel”. Today, their good behaviour is seen as “the last refuge of mediocrity”. Khun Thaksin’s overbearing nature and greed led to his downfall. And, I begin to equate Thai democracy as a lynch mob. I witnessed the violence of the Red Shirts in the Isarn during crisis. I have to put away my 6 yellow shirts and I am armed too. This is no way to live. I avoid the red communities when I go bicycling. I am not yellow but I like their Santi Asok vegetarian food and grocery. I spent as little time at their place as possible.
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denyzofisarn – 31
There must be some differences in specs. and maybe plus a list of ammo and missiles. I am sure the kickbacks.
Unless Thailand is buying the NG version which estimated to be around $40-55 million then you are talking about kickback of at least $15million, that’s almost baht 500 million each and we are buying 6 of them (2 being twin seats) that’s a whooping Baht 3 Billion of kickback! now where is my PAD friends, the champion of anti-corruption war? Maybe its time to take back your 6 yellow shirts huh?
The Khmer Rouge still have these large stockpiles of weapons given by China during those few year of their brutal rule.
I would say with the help of Thailand and the US ally, remembered that Thailand play a very important role in the raise of Khmer Rouge .
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“And just in case, to secure a third line of defense in support of their position, the [Thai] authorities do not hesitate to resort to arguments that were even rejected by the International Court of Justice (in the case involving the Preah Viharn Temple in 1962) in order to invalidate any Lao claim of sovereignty based on the map annexed to the Bangkok Treaty of March 23, 1907.” – Ngaosyvathn, P., ‘Thai-Lao Relations: A Lao View”, Asian Survey, Vol. 25, No.12, 1985, p. 1244
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