If you read the comments on sites like New Mandala or Bangkok Pundit (welcome back, BP!) with any regularity then you probably know that critical jabs at The Nation have been de rigueur for many years.
One pinnacle of such criticism comes in the satirical form of www.notthenation.com, which still produces a steady stream of commentary that leverages off the kinds of stories that The Nation tends to print.
But The Nation isn’t always bad.
Today I should draw New Mandala readers’ attention to a very important article by Nation journalist Pravit Rojanaphruk. For some context, there is a brief profile of Pravit here and his very quotable comment on the lese majeste law here. His most recent article has also been reproduced over at Prachatai where there are already some comments from a number of NM regulars.
Pravit’s article dwells on the graffiti which appeared on a corrugated iron wall outside Central World during last weekend’s Red shirt gatherings in central Bangkok. He reports that the graffiti has now been hastily painted over by those who “decided to sanitise the wall and remove it from the history of Thai politics, circa 2010″. It is disappointing that Pravit can’t recount any of the wall’s messages on pain of a lese majeste accusation. So instead of quoting the “unprecedented” graffiti Pravit observes that “[t]he gap between what is spoken and admitted privately, and what is recited and dismissed publicly is widening and exacting an increasing cost on Thai society”.
This strikes me as an especially astute observation. For what it’s worth, when Andrew and I established New Mandala back in 2006 one of our goals was to help bridge the chasm between what academics, and others, say among themselves and what they can say in public.
One thing that I will say in public is that even though assessments of Thailand’s immediate prospects seem to be on a never-ending pessimistic slide it gives me some confidence when the country still has journalists such as Pravit, and such as the un-named photojournalist in his article. Records are kept, photos are taken, archives are made. Great journalism is a gift to us all. One day, parts of this material may, with luck, end up shared with institutions like our National Library in Canberra. It will then help others to write the histories and sociologies of these momentous years.
From where I sit, journalists and academics work best as two sides of the very same coin. Kudos to Pravit and all those who share his journalistic mission.
Don’t forget Political Prisoners in Thailand. They have been doing a great job!
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So the Nation gets some applause for a change. Funny as for some on the left the Nation has exactly the opposite position to Thaksin.
Taking the pivot point as being 2006, prior to this date the Nation was good and Thaksin was bad. After 2006 the Nation is bad and Thaksin is good, (OK maybe just not as bad.) Saint to sinner and sinner to saint.
It’s worth remembering that almost from day one of Thaksin becoming prime minister the Nation has consistently been at odds with Thaksin. Thaksin drove Nation TV off the air at ITV while his cronies tried to buy the company to consolidate his contr0l of the press. Now during the same period Thaksin has been consistent in his contempt for democracy and legal process.
They have both been fairly consistent so who has been inconsistent I wonder?
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Chang Noi is published at The Nation too. The Nation is a business and Pravit and Chang Noi lend it an aura of respectability that is otherwise completely lacking. I don’t know what the Thai end of Chang Noi’s connections are, but someone said that Pravit is a blue-blood and so cannot be snuffed as would a mere mortal writing what he does.
The Nation is not just a purveyor of opinion as news, they also often actively dis-inform. They are now unmistakably a gutter publication, although prior to the coup they were a garden variety, “respectable”, neo-liberal rag.
I don’t know what happened to them, but it’s the same thing that’s happened to Thailand. Make that Bangkok. The Democrat Party, not to mention the PAD/NPP, went nuts once it had seized power. Rather once they became the front for the back to the future Thai Military Dictatorship. They are glorying in the return to authoritarianism and are aggressively thumbing their noses and thumping their chests at the same time.
It will be a pleasure to see them collapse and crumble as they must. There’s nothing so satisfying as seeing the bully-boys go down.
I definitely appreciate PPT’s perspective more and more as time goes on and as they persevere. They had some very solid links to just the sort of archival material as you refer to a week or so ago. And Prachatai is steadfast and stalwart as ever.
https://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/commentary/general-political-background/
Pravit is good, but don’t confuse Pravit and The Nation. Frank Rich writes for the NYTimes, too, but it’s still a stinking bed on neo-con lies, innuendo, and treachery. A lot like The Nation in Thailand, although The Nation has not the bogus heft of the NYTimes.
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LedAbbey – 2
Thaksin drove Nation TV off the air at ITV while his cronies tried to buy the company to consolidate his contr0l of the press
You get your fact wrong there (I assumed you got it from ASTV). Thanksin never want to buy ITV or get involve with the Nation in the first place but Suthichai Yoon ran ITV to the ground and many of the ITV shareholders at that time (you figured it out who) literally beg Thaksin raise his stake in ITV. Unable to refuse the demand Thaksin bought a stake in ITV and Suthichai Yoon lost control of ITV because Thaksin kick him out of the job. This is happen back in the day not long after the economic crisis that’s why Nation was never be in good term with Thaksin even until today. Furthermore, there’s no reason for Thaksin to raise his stake in ITV since he has channel 5 and NBT under his (then) control anyway.
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Tarrin is right on ITV where Les is wrong. Another correction: many at the Nation were anti-Thaksin before he came to power. The personal hatred of him was fueled by Thaksin’s attacks on some Nation journalists by using AMLO. What was reasonably useful critical commentary deteriorated into a personalized vendetta and, as JFL says, facts went out the window as they have made stuff up at times.
If Thaksin was “consistent [sic] in his contempt for democracy and legal process” what is the Abhisit government? More political prisoners that under Thaksin and a more thorough job of censorship than under Thaksin.
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Les Abbey,
Prior to the coup, the Nation criticized the Thaksin government for some of its many failings (although they steered clear most of the time of what I consider its really big failings – the murders in Tak Bai and the war on drugs) and Thaksin who is no democrat tried his best to stifle them and other opposition voices, something else they rightly criticized.
So, to some extent they were playing the proper role of the press in a free society, a watchdog and a defender of freedom of expression.
But to get rid of Thaksin, they hitched their wagon to the PAD, the royalists and the army coupsters and became a lapdog and an advocate for the suppression of freedom of speech.
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For some time The Nation has been the only quotable source on the ThaiVisa forum due to an economic arrangement. It also swings that blog to a certain style of limited establishment viewpoints. I gave up on the Nation and Thaivisa years ago for their blatant biased reporting and distortion of the truth. Add that Thaivisa through its moderators protects pedophilia but that is another rant.
If The Nation have picked up one decent journalist then good, doesn’t change that it is currently a biased rag, but at least there may be hope. Reminds me too that I haven’t read NTN for a while.
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I wrote Thaksin drove Nation TV off the air at ITV while his cronies tried to buy the company to consolidate his contr0l of the press.
Maybe that wasn’t best said. By company I meant the Nation Group itself, not ITV.
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Suthichai and Sonthi Lim share the same character in that they are always good at talking and blaming others but both always fail in business.
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This column by Pravit is no exception — for Pravit at least. He is a consistent breath of fresh air and good sense at The Nation. Since he returned from an academic leave in the U.S., his columns seem to have become more bold in standing up for free expression. I hope he is able to continue.
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LesAbbey#2 & #7 actually FYI: A staring point to the media onslaught against Thaksin goes back to when former PM Anand Panyarachun, closely aligned to the ruling elites & amaat, enabled the conditions for The Nation Multimedia Group and their Democrat Party mates to secure the ITV concession (at grossly overstated values). ITV was launched in 1996, which of course turned out to be a financial disaster which Thaksin later successfully took over, much to the chagrin of these interests. The so-called “independent” media then started a relentless campaign against Thaksin as they saw their own interests compromised. Thaksin reasonably replaced journalists who continued the slandering and propaganda & who were not prepared to cooperate with the new owners…sounds reasonable to me/
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Jim Taylor – 11
Jim, prior to 2006 what were your feelings about both the Nation and Thaksin? Did your views flip flop at that pivot point like so many others I wonder? I would be interested to know.
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I can’t speak for Jim. But I can tell you this , Les Abbey, my view did flip-flop at that pivotal point because it became quite clear to me that my analysis prior to the coup was completely wrong.
There was fresh, compelling evidence of what was happening so I changed my mind.
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Jim Taylor #11 re :
“Thaksin reasonably replaced journalists who continued the slandering and propaganda & who were not prepared to cooperate with the new owners…sounds reasonable to me/”.
I’ve long respected your many admirable comments on NM, but this one is outrageous.
Especially coming from an academic who is supposed to respect academic independence !!
Ever heard of journalistic independence ?
Whether the journalists were slandering or propagandising should have been tested through the courts, and public opinion – not the diktat of Herr Thaksin.
Jim, with these comments you sound as fascist as those you correctly criticise.
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Tom Hoy – 13
No problem in changing one’s mind Tom, but there are different reasons one’s analysis could change. For some, and I hope it includes you, it may have been on matters of personal principle. For others it may just have been good old-fashioned political opportunism.
For myself I am lucky that I have had a consistent view on both Thaksin and the Nation. Those views may be more gray than black and white, but at least I haven’t had to take part in the mental gymnastics that some have.
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I think we should all be prepared to change out positions as truth becomes apparent and not hold stubbonly to views that do not pass a rigorous scrutiny and fair judgement- and that includes about Thaksin created by the amaat and their compliant media lackies…we all need humility and allow intellectual space for those yellow shirts (including some yellow shirt academics) to move out of the corner they are in right now…
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Jim Taylor – 15
I think we should all be prepared to change out positions as truth becomes apparent…
So Jim did you flip-flop in 2006? Simple question.
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What a pointless question posed by Les Abbey – it’s much more important to be prepared to change based on new knowledge, than to rigidly stick to beliefs which could be wrong.
No prizes for remaining ignorant
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I have to agree with Nganadeeleg on this one. I was impressed by The Nation’s courageous stand against junta censorship in 1992 and I am appalled that they have now become a junta lap dog. But I don’t see how that could be regarded as flip flopping.
“When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”
-John Maynard Keynes
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I think Les Abbey’s question on changing one’s mind is bizarre. It isn’t as if a newspaper is immutable, and allegiance to it should be unconditional. It’s a fair bet that most people’s view are similar to his: “more gray than black and white.”
To the extent that The Nation may have been admirable before 2006, it was because it would occasionally expose government wrongdoing — and Thaksin happened to be the government. To the extent it continues to expose government wrongdoing, it could command continued admiration. But the problem is, they generally kiss up to the present government.
They’ve all but abandoned the core values of journalism for a more Murdoch-like approach. And I don’t mean like The Wall Street Journal, either, which I cannot recall ever running huge headlines like ‘THE FINAL COUNTDOWN’ every few months.
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Leah Hoyt – 18
My impression with 1992 struggle is that it was a truly crash between elites, Army on one side and the establishment on the other. The 1992 is simply the repeat of 1973 which we saw the 2nd Division doing their best job, killing Thai citizens to the benefit of the establishment and to get rid of their political threat my pretending to receive the order from the whoever the establishment want to get rid of, 1992 it was Sujinda and 1973 was Tanorm. I think the reason why the Nation dare to go against the junta was because they are part of the establishment, and they are still now. The Nation hasn’t change much in the political stance.
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Tarrin – 20
My impression with 1992 struggle is that it was a truly crash between elites, Army on one side and the establishment on the other.
What a strange take on 1992. Now if you said 2010 was a clash of the elites you could make a good argument. Thaksin and the provincial godfathers on one side and the old aristocracy on the other would certainly be one way of looking at it. But 1992? Who was the elite on the side of the protesters? Chamlong? Does he count as part of the elite? Seems to me that most of the elite was lined up behind Suchida with possibly the Democrats taking a neutral position.
Just for the usual suspects – there’s nothing wrong in changing your mind but it does depend on why you do it. If it’s for political opportunism and expediency, then it’s nothing to be proud about. As always I try and look back to history to find something similar happening. Maybe someone can point me to when people demonstrated to bring down a country’s leader and then the same people demonstrated to bring him back. Isn’t that what you have done with Thaksin, and then attacked those who point it out?
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LesAbbey – 21
Who was the elite on the side of the protesters?
Actually Chamlong has always been part of the establishment so in a way he was also part of the elite. He was one of the leaders of the “Young Turk” or a group of class 7 who support were right wing lean (though not ultra right wing extremist) and believe in incorruptible leader. The Young Turk had been an important part of Prem assent to the power. At one time Chamlong was appointed as Prem’s secretary so I think his background pretty much been close in close affiliate with the establishment, are we agree on that? Although he had a rift with Prem but Chamlong still hold a strong tied with Prem until today.
Anyhow, you might be right that most of the elites rally behind Gen. Suchinda but only initially because they need someone to get rid of Chartchai and Suchinda is the man for the job. Once they noticed that Suchinda would become too powerful because most of the Jor Por Ror class 5 were supporting him and that Suchida could become PM for a long while the rift with class 7 and other establishment sec. start to appear. However, this rift is not because the establishment was pro democracy but because they are seeing Suchinda as another treat to their power and interest, much like Tanorm.
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Tarrin – 22
I think you are getting into some strange conspiracy theories here. We have ended up reversing roles with me having to defend 92 while you try and defend 2009/2010.
Did 1992 represent a power play by a section of the elite? Well if it did there wasn’t very many of them. I seem to remember Chavalit giving lukewarm support, mind you a bit warmer than the fence-sitting Democrats were giving at the time. No, in the end I can see a middle-class pro-democracy movement that succeeded in changing politics here just a little.
The Young Turks were an interesting group. I agree they had some pretty right wing ideas and you can certainly see a lot of what they were saying in today’s PAD. Thing is when a group of young officers gets together to overthrow an older generation you are never sure how it will end up. Do they become a right wing junta like so many did in Africa or do you end up with a Chavez or something similar to Portugal in 1974? I guess we will never know.
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LesAbbey – 23
I have no objection with you defending the 1992 movement or how yo u like to see it, I’m just telling you another version of the story that the Thai press never want to show since it might just inferred that those massacre in 1992 actually die for nothing. Whether you want to believe is up to you.
The coup of 2006 is the testament that the massacre of 1992 didn’t change anything but solidify the establishment power and weaken the military sec and the 1997 constitution was just a reform of the old system just because the economy was so madly damaged from the crisis. You have to understand that prior to 1992 the military and the establishment are not a unify force within the elite group. There were some officers that were not really found of the establishment but still be able to advance in career to have a say in the arm force’s affair. After the 1992, however, the arm force political position has been weaken dramatically, those officer who were not closely align with the establishment would not be able to advance in their career. That is why we see general today who are either impartial or clearly took side with the establishment.
If you really want to compare which evens are similar, I would say the 1992 and 1973 play out quite similarly while the 1976 was more similar to the 2010.
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I would like to reinforce the points made by Tarrin and challenge LesAbbey’s arguments further. I think it’s the problem of those who read history without taking into account the underlying political discourse or being critical of different versions of the story. If you look deeply the role of people like Chamlong and Prasong Sunsiri, you might find out that they have in fact never changed their political stance over the past years. Their political allegiance remains with the establishment. In my view, these people have never genuinely supported democratization process in this country. And the more interesting part is that they got away with less scrutiny from the so-called ‘educated’ middle class. You should find out more about the role of Chamlong in relation to the massacre of students in 1976. Unfortunately, it’s not written in conventional history books or discussed on ASTV!
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Tonkhao – 25
You should find out more about the role of Chamlong in relation to the massacre of students in 1976. Unfortunately, it’s not written in conventional history books or discussed on ASTV!
It may not be written but it is known or suspected, but it’s rewriting history to declare 1992 to be a clash of the elites. This was the first time that the Thai middle class really flexed their muscles, and from a more mature population rather than just being students. Did it have long term effects? I’m not sure, but what it did do was remove Suchinda from power in the short term. To me that was a great result. Suchinda wanted to take over the role that Prem had perfected so successfully a few years before, but in Bangkok many of those who had supported the removal of Chatchai by the army were not prepared to accept this.
I think both you and Tarrin are allowing your dislike of Chamlong to cloud your intelligence regarding 1992. Mind you, I guess you would say the same about my dislike of Thaksin.
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Les Abbey and Tarrin – as close witness to May’92 – I want to say that both of you are wrong.
The chief beneficiary of the May’92 was the Thai middle class – though their actual role in the uprising has been blown way out of proportion, and that of the pu noi (little people) massively downplayed.
Les – there certainly were very important elite divisions, which ultimately clinched the outcome.
But the Thai middle class – massively Sino-Thai, espcially in Bangkok – has always, like so many Asian middle-classes, been
difficultly and dangerously poised between the upper and lower classes.
See my review of a book by Prof. Rodan, for a quick analysis of this, published in Inside Indonesia, not long after I returned from witnessing May’92.
Thaksin radically changed the delicately balanced power relationship which tenuously existed after ’92. As did the
’97′s economic rash also.
Today’s conflict is even much more class, and region-based, than May’92 – with much of the middle-class adopting reactionary positions to protect themselves from the threat they see coming from below, and coming from the regions.
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LesAbbey – 27
I think both you and Tarrin are allowing your dislike of Chamlong to cloud your intelligence regarding 1992.
I never actually “hate” Chamlong, mind you, because I know who he is working for so Chamlong is never in the picture for me, FYI my family voted for him when he was running for Bangkok governor. If its not Chamlong then it could be someone else and nothing is change. My hate is within the corrupted and injustice patronage system.
chris beale – 28
In my opinion, you are partially right that the 1992 is actually a benefit to the middle class, but the establishment has more to gain as they were able to put the military under their control. Before 1992 the establishment and the military could almost be seen as a 2 power sec with in the elite. However, after 1992 the establishment emerge as the winner, that’s why we see people like Anupong or Prayuth who were more than willing to follow the establishment order while we lost general like Krit Srivara in the process. All the establishment did was sharing the power (or given power to depend on from what angle you look at) with the newly emerging middle class and made them another power sec within the elite, namely Thaksin and CP group.
My conclusion to your point is that majority of the the middle class still has little say in the Thai politic and that the true power holder is the establishment.
Noted that many people from my family also join the protest of 1992 so we were, in a way, at the frontline.
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LesAbbey – 26
Your presumptuous conclusion distorted the point I was trying to make. It is not about disliking Chamlong or Thaksin. You missed the whole point by personalizing the issue. The reason why I asked you to look deeply into the role of people like Chamlong or Prasong Sunsiri is because I want you to think more critically why a person who once supported the so-called “pro-democracy” movement in 1992 turned out to endorse the coup in 2006? Do we really understand their role? Have they really changed their political stance? or Did we misunderstand their political motives in the first place?
Of course you wouldn’t be able to answer any of those questions because you have no clue about the actual role of these peoples, how they link to the conservative elite in Thailand, and what it means for the democratization process in Thailand, especially in the past two decades. At the heart of the matter, their political move is a reflection of the underlying power relations within the Thai society. That is why the real change has never really happened in the interest of the people. As Pasuk and Chris Baker argued in the recent article, “the modern Thai political system is best viewed as an oligarchy which has never been radically threatened from below.”
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/197731/the-implications-of-coloured-movements
Last but not least, how can you even claim that what happened in 1992 has a long-term impact on the democratization process in Thailand when we just had another coup in 2006!? Apart from removing Suchinda from power (which you thought that was a great result), you said it yourself that you were not even sure. Let me share my final thought: removing one dictator does not mean a thing if you don’t address the fundamental power structure in Thailand.
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Tonkhao – 30
Of course you wouldn’t be able to answer any of those questions because you have no clue about the actual role of these peoples…
Such arrogance. Are you a teacher at Chula or Thammasat perhaps?
Strange thing is being a farang and living here for so many years did at one time allow you fairly free access to all social groups in Thailand. In many ways you were outside the Thai class system. Maybe your accusations of ignorance are misplaced. For some of us two decades isn’t that far back.
Apart from removing Suchinda from power (which you thought that was a great result)…
So you feel there was no gain in removing Suchinda? Really just changing one dictator for another?
I think what you were trying to do was shock us with the news that Chamlong and Young Turks didn’t have the most pleasant history. When you failed to achieve that effect you have then tried to give it a pseudo academic cover. Maybe time to go back to impressing your students.
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LesAbbey – 31
For some of us two decades isn’t that far back.
Maybe admitting to the fact should be a wake up call for you? I’m not saying I’m old enough to make any comment regarding what had happen in the 73 and 76, but I certainly live trough the 92 and I saw and felt what happened afterward (including the 1997 till today). I have read many record, from Dr. Puay, Gen. Tanorm, Gen Krit, and many other who were involving with the event from 1973 till late 85. Even then I can still trace the course of the what lead to the massacre of 1973 back to the 1968 and then back further to even as early as 1932. I guess two decades is not enough even for many Thais who are in their 50s now.
I think what you were trying to do was shock us with the news that Chamlong and Young Turks didn’t have the most pleasant history
Since I guess you are referring to me too so I guess I should explaining myself a bit here. The reason I even mentioning the Young Turk was because you are the one who was asking “Who was the elite on the side of the protesters? ” “Chamlong?”. Its almost like asking “Chamlong who?” to many people that actually read about him so we (me and Tonkhao) gave you the reason why we believed that Chamlong has always been part of elite all along, now, do you have anything else that suggest otherwise?
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LesAbbey – 31
Actually, your speculation about me is completely wrong and that proves my point
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Tarrin – 32
…so we (me and Tonkhao) gave you the reason why we believed that Chamlong has always been part of elite all along, now, do you have anything else that suggest otherwise?
Yes Tarrin I will. Chamlong became a political maverick. Why? Well I guess his Damascene moment where he saw the error of his ways while partaking in the military corruption of the PX supplies while Thai troops were helping the Americans in Laos. At least that’s how he says it happened and I have no reason to disbelieve him.
Not being religious, I always suspect strongly religious people have the capability of being dangerous. Sometimes though it gives a person a moral basis to take a rather brave stand. I think we saw Chamlong do that in 1992 and also as Bangkok governor where he took a stand against corruption.
Now I remember Chamlong being out in the streets when the bullets were flying. Not usually the role of a member of the elite in most countries I feel. Also, and I know it’s a cheap shot, not a role that either Thaksin or the red shirt leadership wanted to play this year, excepting Seh Daeng of course.
No Tarrin although I don’t recognize Thonkhao I thought more of you and didn’t expect you to try and write both the man and 1992 movement out of Thailand’s progressive political history. Maybe a bit of Stalinist revisionism, just like writing Trotsky out of the Russian Revolution or the POUM out of the Spanish Civil War.
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Tarrin – very much appreciate your always intelligent and insightful comments above, and elsewhere on NM.
Re : “However, after 1992 the establishment emerge as the winner, that’s why we see people like Anupong or Prayuth who were more than willing to follow the establishment order while we lost general like Krit Srivara in the process.”
General Krit, of course, died of natural causes many years before May’92.
Did Krit “not follow the establishment order” ?
He certainly refused to fire on the 1973 students – but perhaps he was following the establishment order, not the orders of Thanom, and the rest of that military clique.
The real tragedy after Krit, was that General Kriangsak was not given the backing from on high which he deserved.
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Tomklao – 33
Actually, your speculation about me is completely wrong and that proves my point
If only it was that easy to prove a point we could all go home.
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LesAbbey – 34
he saw the error of his ways while partaking in the military corruption of the PX supplies while Thai troops were helping the Americans in Laos.
I think you should go visit to upper Isan and actually talk to those ex-military man about their opinion regarding Chamlong, he’s pretty famous among a small circle of retired general there. Anyhow, its very hard to get any record of the event since most of the CIA operation in Laos was kept secret and the Laos themselves dont want any record to slip out in fear of having relationship difficulty with Thailand. However, I story that I heard accidentally while I pay a short visit to Isan was that this young Thai communication officer was leading a platoon strong of CIA operative in Laos. One day a platoon of CIA operative was caught in ambush in Laos, the young officer was task with mission to rescue the operative. The reason why the young officer refuse to go out that night was debatable but about 50-60 of CIA operative lost their life.
Now I remember Chamlong being out in the streets when the bullets were flying. Not usually the role of a member of the elite in most countries I feel.
I think I’ve said this already but then I should say it again to counter your point regarding the nature of Chamlong seeming brave behavior that night. As everyone is aware of, Chamlong was a Jor Por Ror cadet graduate, if you actually know a bit about the school tradition, the rules of the Jor Por Ror cadet was that “Jor Por Ror don’t shoot at Jor Por Ror” no matter what. That’s why on the fateful night, Chamlong had nothing to fear of since he knows that no military man dare to shoot at him. Which, bring me to Sae Dang, who was also as brave as Chamlong since he was also a Jor Por Ror cadet and he also know the cadet tradition. However, what turn out differently was that Sae Dang got shot at and die in hand of another cadet. This also affirmed how weak the military is, politically, comparing to 1992 and how the establishment is so dominating within the elite rank.
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That’s why on the fateful night, Chamlong had nothing to fear of since he knows that no military man dare to shoot at him.
Although it’s getting a bit pointless continuing the argument Tarrin because we are not getting any closer to resolving it, let me just add from my very limited experience of flying bullets in civil disturbances, most seem not to be particularly well aimed. I’m sure for a lot of those hit by bullets this year it was probably bad luck rather than an aimed bullet. I wonder what would be the percentage fired against those that hit someone.
Anyway with Chamlong I suspect he is a braver man than me to be in the road while bullets were being fired. And yes there were many brave people among the red shirts that did it too. Then again there were some…
Now Seh Daeng and Chamlong were friends weren’t they? Were they together in Laos I wonder?
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LesAbbey – 38
Yes this is getting no where but my aim here is not to convince you to believe me but to informed people that happened to read our posts. However, I disagree with you about people who got shot at as simply being bad luck, you can confirm that with Nick I’m sure. However, if that’s the case, and those casualties were simply bad luck then its further solidify the evidence that the Thai Army has a really poor standard.
Anyway with Chamlong I suspect he is a braver man than me to be in the road while bullets were being fired.
Well, I’ve made my case about why he has nothing to be afraid of so I guess we can put that to rest.
Now Seh Daeng and Chamlong were friends weren’t they? Were they together in Laos I wonder?
Chamlong is Jor Por Ror class of 7 while Sae Dang is class 11 so no way they are friend by any chance, furthermore, Sae Dang operation base is mostly in Thailand as an conter-insurgent (communist) unite or the hunter ranger unite and he remained so for several years while Chamlong was in the field for 2 years and then we got an admin job most of the time. I’m sure they have cross path sometime during their career.
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Chamlong is Jor Por Ror class of 7 while Sae Dang is class 11 so no way they are friend by any chance…
I took it that they must be friends from Seh Daeng’s talk of 2008 or 2009 before he became a red shirt supporter. It was him telling the Samak or Somchai government that if they arrested Chamlong he would take over leadership of yellow shirts and remove the government wasn’t it? Or do I have the wrong general?
Tarrin I take it that after pointing out that Chamlong had no need of bravery standing in the street when the bullets were flying, and arguing against my suspicion that most people were shot were probably unlucky rather than targeted, that you say this from experience of being in the street with the red shirts when the bullets were flying this year.
While there does seem little doubt that army snipers did target individuals, on some roads like Rama 4 it seemed to me that the army was just firing down the road to clear demonstrators off it. (Not being from the military I could be very wrong on this and maybe a soldier never fires unless he has someone in his sights. Then again if each bullet fired equaled one casualty then only about 100 bullets were fired this year. Or of course soldiers are bad shots and it’s sheer bad luck if you are the one hit.)
Last bit on Chamlong as we have moved so far off the topic of the Nation is, but which you are welcome to refute, I think he had a following among some of the younger army officers. Wasn’t he a respected teacher at the academy for a while. I could imagine some of the young cadets being quite taken with this ascetic religious character.
Maybe he could have been a bit like General Spinola was to the younger officers in Lisbon in 1974. Then again a few of those young officers eventually ended up in prison under the democratic governments that followed the end of fascism in Portugal. Come to think of it, didn’t some of the younger Philippino army officers who helped overthrow Marcos eventually end up in prison under Mrs. Aquino.
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LesAbbey – 40
It was him telling the Samak or Somchai government that if they arrested Chamlong he would take over leadership of yellow shirts and remove the government wasn’t it? Or do I have the wrong general?
I don’t recall that myself since there were more than a dozen military men that went on the stage but I do have some vague idea which speech you are talking about. However, I don’t think its him, I’m sure that a reporter used to interview Sae Dang and all he said he was there as an observer, he made no mention of replacing Chamlong by any chance. If there’s something to say about Sae Dang he used to be one of the prominent figure who talk against Thaksin during times before the 19 Sep Coup, he even came out and protect Anupong on the APC corruption case. However, his stance slowly changes throughout 2008-2009 who knows why that’s the case.
Not being from the military I could be very wrong on this and maybe a soldier never fires unless he has someone in his sights. Then again if each bullet fired equaled one casualty then only about 100 bullets were fired this year
Well, the Army is not a unify single living entity, those that involve in the operation against the red might have some of their relative took part in the protest. I have came across an article written in Thai about this young private who saw his mother in the crowd so he drop his gun an ran to her to take her to safety, I’m not sure who wrote that article or whether the event actually take place so I never want to quote one. However, just weeks before 19 May there’s a report by Matichon about another private hanging himself in Korat because he doesn’t want to come to Bangkok.
With that in mind, its pretty save to say that not all the soldiers who took part in the operation want to shoot at the protesters, but certainly some were more than willing to. We simply can’t generalize what each soldiers were thinking then so your statement about number of casualties should be equal to short fire sound very odd.
If any thing make you feel a but more suspicious, then I’m sure that those 6 (or more) death in Wat Pratum were not shot because they were unlucky right? if you read the recent headline in many news paper (not the English one anyway) they have found many HK rounds on the BTS track between the Siam and Chitlom station.
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Les Abbey: “Or do I have the wrong general?”
Yes, I think you do:
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ThaiTalk/2008/08/28/entry-3
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Nganadeeleg – 42
I stand corrected. You are quite right the general was the Panlop, who of course was the other general to start seeing and supporting Thaksin.
Tarrin do you have General Panlop Pinmanee’s history for us? Pretty murky past it seems no matter what group he is backing and I see in one report Seh Daeng described as his sidekick. Is that a fair description I wonder?
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And notable by his absence – is the Crown Prince – as Bumiphol is reported visiting Sirikit, newly hospitalised.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/10/02/national/HM-the-King-visits-Queen-in-hospital-for-checkup-30139196.html
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All the ‘wrong’ characters seem to gravitate towards the Thaksin-funded Red movement. Rogue generals Sae Daeng and assasin Panlop, Chalerm Yubamrung (of the cop killing/extortion notoriety), Chavalit (the muddling general w/ shady Burmese business links) and those prepaid (up to Baht 100 million according to news account EACH!) Red leaders.
And recent reported scandal that million Baht donations to the Red cause (to help those affected by the Black May 2010 tragedy) had been pilfered and unaccounted for . . . do suggest something seriously amiss.
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Matt B: You seem to be forgetting those backroom deals that put Abhisit in power (and keeps him there).
Is it possible to also say all the ‘wrong’ characters seem to gravitate towards the Privy Council?
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MattB, why don’t you gravitate towards the red shirts then?
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Just mentioning Newin Chidchob and Vattana Asavahaem should be enough to discredit MattB’s comment. Panlop was also previously a yellow shirt, as already noted.
It is fairly obvious that anyone who gravitates to the army side is deemed “good” and anyone who opposed them is deemed “bad”.
The rest of MattB’s post just consists of reaching to Thailand vast rumor mill and picking out one or two that support his points.
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In answer to both Nganadeeleg (#46) and Martino (#47), I actually meant “Nearly all” by that “All the wrong characters . . . .”. Jeez . . . I must have touched some raw nerves by my observation that “shady Thai characters do naturally gravitate towards the Thaksin-funded Red movement . . .”
And THAT (plus a long list of other things) COULD be why the Reds have a very serious IMAGE issue and certain clowns (borrowing from Chris Beale) giggle when ‘Reds’ and ‘democracy’ are spoken in the same breath.
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LesAbbey – 43
Panlop is Jor Por Ror 7 so he was definitely a classmate of Chamlong and also a good friend, nothing much to say about that guy apart from he was and I believe still is, a very influential figure in the Army and that he used to live off Thaksin pocket for sometime.
MattB – 45,49
Well, why don’t you mention the name like, Sia (of Thairath fame), Kum Paka, M.L. Natakorn, Dr. Worajade (I might misspell his name), Suranan Vejjajiva et al. there’s so many other big names that were align with the red you know.
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Tarrin – 50
Wasn’t Panlop involved in the mosque massacre down south or was that another general?
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Les Abbey #41 :
1)”Maybe he could have been a bit like General Spinola was to the younger officers in Lisbon in 1974. Then again a few of those young officers eventually ended up in prison under the democratic governments that followed the end of fascism in Portugal.”
2) “Come to think of it, didn’t some of the younger Philippino army officers who helped overthrow Marcos eventually end up in prison under Mrs. Aquino.”
You really need to do more homework re. both.
I was in Portugal, six months before Spinola’s coup – it was a place of special interest to me, since I had grown up during my teens in Dar-es-Salaam, just around the corner from Dr. Eduardo Mondlane’s house.
He was leader of the Frelimo guerillas fighting against Portuguese colonial control of Mozambique.
It was obvious when I visited Portugal, in summer of 1973, that something big was about to happen. Much like Thailand today.
I was also in the Philippines, two times in ’86, when it was also obvious something big was going to happen as Marcos ended.
The soldiers you mention, in both cases, who were jailed, were those who tried to de-stabilise more democratic governments.
It was not the fault of the democratic governments, as you seem to imply, that these soldiers were imprisoned :
it was the fault of the rebel soldiers themselves – that they could NOT accept the new reformed, more democratic order.
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LesAbbey – 51
Actually I don’t know much about the people involve in Krue Sae since I think its really not the man on the top fault, well, not entirely. There are certainly many cover up in the case and I do firmly believe many high ranking officer is to be blame, and yes Panlop is the one who order the crackdown and for some reason Thaksin took the blame.
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Chris Beale – 52
It was not the fault of the democratic governments, as you seem to imply, that these soldiers were imprisoned:
I didn’t intend to imply that if that’s what I did. If anything the implication was that they could move from hero to villain very quickly.
You really need to do more homework re. both.
I suspect, as with my supposed implication, you are trying to set up a straw man. My homework may be shoddy and my memory may be compromised, but are you saying that the outcome in both Philippines and Portugal didn’t need the participation of these young Turks?
I was fortunate to spend parts of 1973 and 1974 in Lisbon and managed to partake in the Carnation Revolution, although my sobriety at the time was seriously impaired and celebrate is probably a better term than partake. The young officers of the MFA were probably looking for more than the returning politicians were willing to give, but I suspect that is something we can see in various places including the Philippines.
Talking of which, the Philippines, and yes I worked around most of the SE Asian countries at the time, does suffer from that Asian disease of dynastic politics. But is that better than a dictatorship? Certainly, but it would be good to see these family and clan power relationships disappear from the region.
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Tarrin – 53
…and yes Panlop is the one who order the crackdown and for some reason Thaksin took the blame.
Tarrin, isn’t it strange then that they should appear to be so close now? I wonder who did give the order.
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LesAbbey – 55
Well, if you recalled what actually happen during the fateful day, Chavalit make an explicit order to resolve the siege peacefully.
http://www.countercurrents.org/hr-achr060504.htm
Deputy Prime Minister Chavalit Yongchaiyudh reportedly ordered Gen Panlop Pinmanee, Deputy Director of the Internal Security Operations Command and the most senior person present during the standoff, to negotiate with the assailants and talk them into surrendering, no matter how long it took. However, the army used disproportionate force even after the assailants had stopped shooting. On 29 April 2004, Deputy Prime Minister Chavalit Yongchaiyudh reportedly ordered General Panlop Pinmanee to leave immediately.
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