I have received the following appeal from Freedom Against Censorship Thailand (FACT). This statement by the Asia Human Rights Commission is also relevant. Will things be any better if Pheua Thai win the election? I’m not confident.
H.E. Kristie A. Kenney
US Ambassador to ThailandYour Excellency:
It is incumbent that the US government support US citizen Joe W. Gordon who has recently been arrested on multiple charges in Thailand, the country of his birth.
Mr. Gordon has been charged with the following crimes:
1) lèse majesté 3-15 years, Criminal Code article 112
2)‘inciting unrest and disobedience of the law in public’, unknown penalty and legislation
3) ‘disseminating computer data which threatens national security’, 3-5 years, Computer Crimes Act 2007
4)‘national security’ charge, presumably using the Internal security Act 2007, unknown penalty.
The accused is in poor health but is being held without bail which prevents mounting an effective legal defence. Past experience with the Thai judicial process has shown that an accused is most often held for several years awaiting trial.
According to legal experts, there is a 98% conviction rate for this kind of offence. I estimate that single counts on these charges would amount to a sentence of 60 to 80 years in prison. Past strategy for Thai prosecutions of this nature have shown multiple counts added to each charge, increasing prison sentences exponentially.
In addition to Mr. Gordon’s accused lèse majesté for allegedly linking to portions of the banned biography of King Bhumibol, The King Never Smiles in Thai translation, he stands accused of being webmaster for Thai political Redshirts at the NorPorChor USA website.
This accusation is most interesting because Tantawut Taweewarodomkul was convicted and sentenced to 13 years in prison March 15 for precisely the same crime. Of course, he had the temerity to plead not guilty which doubled his sentence.
Will the real NorPorChor USA webmaster please stand up! Both these men were easy targets simply because they were in Thailand rather than overseas.
The US government has been vocal about global Internet freedom during the current administration. US Secretary of State Hilary Clinton gave forceful speeches against Internet censorship in January 2010 and again in January 2011.
The US government has made six million dollars available in 2008 and thirty million dollars in 2011 to circumvent Internet blocking around the globe.
If the United States does not support Joe Gordon against Thai censorship, all these efforts have been empty lies to make itself look free in the eyes of the world.
I am well aware that the US cannot intervene in the legal processes of any other country, even to protect its citizens.
However, that certainly does not mean that the US government cannot speak out—and loudly—against a grave injustice and the censorship which has made Joe Gordon a prisoner of conscience.
One of the first steps the US government should offer is to guarantee Mr. Gordon’s bail. It is unlikely any court would then refuse to grant it.
As an American living in Thailand, I wish this message to be conveyed to the State Department in Washington and the highest levels of government.
I welcome consulting with you over Joe Gordon’s case.
Thank you.
for freedom,
CJ Hinke
Freedom Against Censorship Thailand (FACT)
Well said, CJ! It’s time she woke up. Time for a petition?
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CJ Hinke
thank you for attempting to raise the profile of this case (and by implication all lese majeste cases) and highlighting US selective standards in supporting its citizens and human rights in general
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No political party, PT included, would be brave enough to address this issue for sure. For PT, the best they can do is perhaps to slow down new cases, especially those filed by govt officials associated in some way or another with the current administration (they’ll certainly think twice or three times before accusing anyone on the LM ground if the ruling power changes hand).
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The Computer Crimes Act is a pretty awful piece of legislation, it is quite onerous to comply with and sufficiently vague to make a convenient tool for charging/harassing people that various authorities don’t like.
The act is supposedly ‘under review’, but comments from the ICT Ministry do not inspire confidence that it will be ‘improved’, rather the reverse with additional responsibility/liability imposed on system administrators.
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When will Thais learn about the “Streisand effect,” –the backlash that occurs when someone tries to censor information on the Web. When the Streisand effect takes hold, the content doesn’t just quietly disappear. Instead, it infects the online community in a pandemic of free-speech-fueled defiance, gaining far more attention than it would have had the information’s original owners simply kept quiet.
The phenomenon takes its name from Barbra Streisand, who made her own ill-fated attempt at censoringin the Web in 2003. That’s when environmental activist Kenneth Adelman posted aerial photos of Streisand’s Malibu beach house on his Web site as part of an environmental survey, and she responded by suing him for $50 million. Until the lawsuit, few people had spotted Streisand’s house, and fewer more cared. But the lawsuit brought more than a million visitors to Adelman’s Web site, he estimates. Streisand’s case was dismissed, and Adelman’s photo was picked up by the Associated Press and reprinted in newspapers around the world.
The Internet has been mainstream for more than a decade. But what Streisand and others like the the Thai LM Cyberscouts fail to realize, , is that the rules of privacy and information control have changed. “Before, you took the hardest legal stance you could,” says Masnick. “You sent out cease-and-desist letters with a lot of nasty language. But the Internet has turned that around and allowed people to fight back and get a lot more people outraged.”
People don’t like that a large entity can beat up on a little entity, and the power of the Internet has been arrayed to support victims.
Thailand’s Elite vs Joe Gordon.
I’m rooting for Joe.
No matter how they try to spin it, it comes down to An American in American commenting on a book.
Never mind that Thai Translations of the book are availiable on Google, and footnoted and linked in Wilipedia. Joe is in Jail. Languishing.
If Google executives come to Thailand will they be arrested too?
And anyone using wikipedia?
Didn’t Thais already arrest someone else and charge him for being the alleged webmaster of the site? But wait a minute, we can’t know, the trials are held in camera (secret).
Salem 1692, Kampuchea Year Zero, , Germany 1938.
Thailand 2554.
This probably won’t end well…..
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It is sad to see the US be such pussies.
All they have to do is tell one of the generals that if they didn’t like Wikileaks, wait till they see will be leaked to the NY Times with the authority of an “un-named” State Department official. Day in and day out.
The only hope is to get the US media interested, so they have pressure to get it off the news. But they aren’t. They won’t. If only Joe Gordon would have been a blond white girl.
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@Gene
I am sorry to disappoint you, but being a ‘blond white girl’ will not guarantee freedom of speech in Thailand. Thailand does have the habit of occasionally picking up a couple of not so well known and not at all connected westerner just so that Thailand can maintain a facade of ‘fairness’ (not only targeting Thais) and also as boasting points (we arrested farangs too!!!).
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Nuomi
The Thai authorities may not care about blonde white girls, but the U.S media sure does. I think that was Green Gene’s point.
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@7
No, but being a ‘blond white girl’ would increase the chance of his story being publicised / kept in the media in the US… and that (along with people circulating his story and their opinions about it on the net etc…) is probably the best chance he has of getting out of there..
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“I am sorry to disappoint you, but being a ‘blond white girl’ will not guarantee freedom of speech in Thailand. ”
No, but it would give the US media an irresistible piece of racially-tinged bait: A white girl facing jail in Thailand, where non-white people might touch her in dirty ways. Remember the Australian girl who was “framed” for drug smuggling? She lost, but not before the enraged Aussie public dragged a reluctant Aussie government into paying more attention to her defense than any previous case. And she was a drug smuggler. Imagine if her crime had been “web comments and links” made while in Sydney.
Greene Gene is right; image matters in the media world. Americans don’t care if the Asian country with the long funny names imprisons an Asian dude with a long funny name.
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On inauguration the President of the USA swears to uphold the Constitution. I understood that all public servants of the USA must do likewise. That implies that each and every US government official is duty bound to uphold freedom of speech and expression as guaranteed in the First Amendment.
So it is the duty of the US Ambassador to Thailand to support US Joe and should US citizens feel moved to paint slogans on the big white wall surrounding the US Consulate in Chiang Mai denouncing Lese Magesty, as is their right, likewise they should be supported.
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Does anybody know if Joe has dual citizenship?
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@Ricky, the US Constitution is all but shredded, it is really just a tourist attraction these days…a piece of memorabilia. You may once have been the home of free etc but those days are long past.
The fascist USA is probably studying the Computer Crimes Act plotting how they will introduce it themselves as a handy way to rid themselves of malcontents. Probably call it an adjunct to the never ending and very profitable war on terror.
I very much doubt Joe Gordon can expect help from there however perhaps he may get a Royal Amnesty later after doing a long and unpleasant stint in a Thai jail…poor bugger.
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Khun ไม่ระบุชื่อ,
I don’t know, but Thailand allows people to hold dual citizenships. Most Thais who live overseas for a long time usually hold dual citizenships. They can choose to give up their Thai nationality if they wish. However, I think very few would do that, as unlike South Korea, Malaysia, or China, Thais do not have to ‘give up’ their Thai nationalities if they become other countries’ citizens. Most of the Thais in the country where I live (including myself) hold dual citizenships. I have yet to see any Thais here that I know who ‘gave up’ their Thai nationality and surrendered Thai passports to the Thai embassy.
Anyway, sorry for digressing. However, I would like to venture out a guess, that Mr Gordon still has not given up his Thai citizenship.
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@ ไม่ระบุชื่อ
Fact one: “Joe” has dual citizenship Thai and US confirmed
Fact two: Thailand law legally do not allow dual citizenship, but most of the upper middle class and all the elites have dual citizenship. Anybody who has dual citizenship in Thailand is also unlikely to denounce the Thai citizenship since we all know that this law is unlikely to be strictly enforced because we all know who also secretly has dual citizenship.
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@ 8, 9, and 10
Also precisely my point! Let me explain Thai mentality more simplistically (and yes this is actually from arguments I had with Thais with Masters from US and UK):
1) Thailand arrest blond white young pretty American girl for LM
2) US protest through official channel
3) Thailand stands firm: we are fair, we even arrest farangs for daring to commit LM
4) US media went rabid over it following the pre-mentioned racist tilt
5) Thailand media boasts of how brave and righteous we are not to cave in to rabid US media and pressure
6) Racist tilt allow news to stay in US media for extended time, pushing US diplomats to work harder at least superficially over this non-crucial/non-existent issue
7) Thailand media and Thai public (we know which part) will now feel justified and proud that we are now “equal” in stature to the US because the US cannot “force” Thailand to not punish the girl for LM
8) Meanwhile behind the scenes and all the hoo-haa, the US diplomats will work quietly to tell the girl to behave in jail and keep as low a profile as possible, all the time cursing both the Thai and US media for keeping it on high profile, while drafting an official “plea” for Royal Pardon
9) As soon as the media frenzy dies down, the pardon will be reviewed seriously. Since there is no longer any face loss issue or reputation gain issue to be dealt with, the American gal will be given royal pardon as soon as is expedient – which usually will be in December.
10) Once pardoned, an official apology and expression of gratitude will be expected in front of cameras to be broadcast.
11) End of saga, hopefully, till the next time someone need to flex muscles to show themselves “equal” of farangs and another non-connected victim will be chosen.
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@ 12 @ 13
This Prachathai article http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/2560
says he has dual citizenship.
Joe Gordon says the police kept using his ‘old thai name’ so he was probably arrested under that…
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According to the officials who arrested him, Mr.Joe Gordon still holds Thai citizenship; see this report (sorry, in Thai – but partly translated below). As always with claim by the Thai authorities in such cases, one needs to take it with certain degree of skepticism.
http://goo.gl/kZkhn
Pol.Col. Yan-phong Yang-yuen, DSI deputy director, referring to the arrest of Lerphong Wichai-khammat or “Joe Gordon”, age 55, said that the DSI has evidence, both the IP address and computer license [? - not sure what this means - SJ] communication equipments, indicating that the creator of the websites “Nor Pho Chor USA” is in Thailand.
Moreover, there is evidence from the messages posted at the Nor Pho Chor USA websites to prove that Mr.Lerphong used the pseudonym “Sin Sae Jiw” [the name listed as "translator" of the underground, pirate Thai version of Mr.Handley's book - SJ]. Some of the messages he posted clearly constitute Less Majesty. The DSI spent more than 2 years investigating his case. Moreover, the DSI issued arrest warrant for Mr.Lerphong as a Thai citizen, because Mr.Lerphong applied for Thai ID card in 2009 to open an English-language teaching school and a business venture.
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Thanks for clearing up your original point, Nuomi. I find nothing there to disagree with.
I suppose of that Swiss fellow who defaced the king’s pictures could get pardoned, any foreigner can.
Unless he’s also Thai.
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@Nuomi,
My post is completely irrelevant to this topic but I just post to reply about the Thai law regarding dual citizenships. The law itself does not specifically say you have to denounce your Thai citizenships once you become other country’s citizens. All it requires for one to do is they must ‘inform’ the Thai Embassy about it (which we did, and all they told us was ‘thank you for notifying us’). I must admit, however, that I am not sure whether the law has changed (although I don’t think it has).
@Ajarn Somsak ka,
Regardless of whether Mr Gordon has Thai citizenship or not, he is still a US citizen. Hence the US can do something about it if they choose to na ka, especially this arrest is related with the fundamental right of free speech and political preference, which is the ‘jus cogens’ (ie. fundamental norm of international law). Of course they do not have the obligation, but they certainly have the right. The issue is whether they would exercise their right or not.
Just my two cents na ka, CT
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I asked about the dual citizenship because it complicates matters for Mr. Gordon in terms of the US State Department helping him. My understanding about dual citizenship is that there is nothing in the current constitution of Thailand that prohibits hold citizenship of another country, however, dual citizenship is not ‘recognized’. It is the same for the US. The reason it makes things more complicated for Mr. Gordon is that holding Thai citizenship makes it difficult for State Department officials to legally assist him. I am not a lawyer, but that is my understanding from my friends who are.
As far as helping Mr. Gordon, making sure that the State Department as well as his congressional representative for his state of residence are aware of his situation, would probably be the best first step. Followed by making sure as many news sources are given this information and asked to report on it. Facebook and twitter are also good options; anything to get more people aware of the situation. But having the most information about the situation is essential. Such as, in which state is Mr. Gordon a resident? What is was the situation surrounding the offense? i.e. was the link posted while he was in the US or in Thailand? and so on.
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@Khun ไม่ระบุชื่อ
I am not an expert in international law, but I can tell you what I know. Whether one state can successfully ‘act’ for its citizens or not depends on the level of attachment that citizen has to that state. For example, if Mr Gordon was not born in the US, has been granted an American passport, but he hardly lives in the US, then it is not likely that he has sufficient attachment to the US. Of course the US can still act for him, but if the case goes to the International Court, they are likely to say that there is no sufficient attachment between himself and the US.
In this case, however, Mr Gordon has been living in the US for decades. Thus the fact that he has dual citizenship is irrelevant; he has more than sufficient attachment with the US, and the ICJ will regard him as a citizen. Of course, it is at the end up to the US whether they will take action. But in case they choose to take action, they are likely to be successful in helping Mr Gordon out of Thailand prison.
Just my two cents
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“Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person’s allegiance. However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.”
from US State Department Website-http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html
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-ไม่ระบุชื่อ- So, you’re ok with him getting a life sentence for posting a link?
Watch how you torrent then, you’ll get x2 times as much!
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Imagine, you publish a link on a blog to a reasonably accurate historical book published by one of the leading universities in the world. And for this “crime” you are thrown in a hardcore Thai prison for 20 plus years.
It says so much about who is in control of Thailand at the present time, what kind of people they are, what they believe, their intention, their view of the world, their sense of impunity and power. It is not a pretty picture at all, very mai suay, not the image promoted by TAT around the world, not the Land of Smiles and Sabai.
Instead, it is a dark cruel land ruled by dark cruel people clinging to an imagined past, when rulers ruled and the serfs and slaves obeyed, prostrating themselves, grovelling, presenting the backs of their necks for instant execution should their masters be displeased.
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So The State Dept says: “They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.”
Well what we are seeing is the Thai government applying a law to supress freedom of speech to a person who spoke freely in a country the USA where supression of speech and the legislation of the same is contrary to the constitution.
Surely it should be the US authorities who take the Thai government to court for attempting to apply an illegal law extra-territorialy?
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Mr. Gordon lived in the US State of Colorado.
I have contacted both of his US Senators.
They are Mark Udall and Micheal Bennett.
Email addresses follow:
http://bennet.senate.gov/contact/
http://markudall.senate.gov/?p=contact_us
Perhaps it is time for Thais to consider the way they are viewed by the rest of the world, not as a liberal western-style democracy, but as a democracy like that of the DPRK or Burma.
And there will be more friendly visits cancelled (think David Cameron) and Thai represenatives to international organizations will be treated glacially (think of Surakiart Sathirathai failed attempt to be UN Head).
And most diplomats will be here to urge Thailand to comply with international agreements, be they the The Convention on Cluster Munitions, or the Internationa Court of Justice, or the Convention for Refugees, or UN Convention against Corruption, or UN Convention against Corruption, or the one onHuman Rights, or the one on Stateless Persons…..etc.
And the thought in the back of each diplomats mind when greeting the Thai PM will be…. “will this look like the Dec 20, 1983 – Donald Rumsfeld shakeing hands with Iraqi President Saddam Hussein? Maybe I should grimice.”
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@Norbert said:
“[Thailand]…is a dark cruel land ruled by dark cruel people clinging to an imagined past, when rulers ruled and the serfs and slaves obeyed, prostrating themselves, grovelling, presenting the backs of their necks for instant execution should their masters be displeased.”
The problem is many Thais don’t know this. They fell for the propaganda shown to them daily on TV, and they see the evil as god. Thus, they are ready to do anything to protect them. They see everything their ‘gods’ do as righteous, and they are ready to harm people who do not agree with them. What is happening in Thailand now is not so different from the Nazi era in Germany, unfortunately
@Concerned American
I am grateful that you try to do something about this. In fact I am very surprised why the Americans do not take much interest about this issue. I vividly remember years ago when the Aussies were enraged when Van Tuong Nguyen, a Vietnamese Australian, was sentenced to death in Singapore for drug smuggling. They came out and protested on the streets, despite the fact that what Mr Nguyen did was CLEARLY wrong. In this situation, however, what Mr Gordon has done is definitely not a wrong anywhere in any civilized country. And he was jailed because of it. I am surprised that the reaction in the US about this matter was not as strong…
…but to be fair, I must say that the Aussies did not really protest that heavily when Mr Nicolaides was jailed as well…
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CT
It just goes to show you that this whole escapade is proof of who the real heros of the day are: Bradley E. Manning and Julian Assange.
If I were to meet Mr Manning, we probably would hate each others guts and politics. But who else is answering the call?
Obviously Mr Assange _allegedly_ has his personal issues, but does it not seem that those qualities make him more suited to lead the IMF or be be a U.S. Congressman? But who else is answering the call?
We need more Wikileaks, because “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” – Upton Sinclair
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CT: Why do some Thais (like you) see reality and think skeptically about the ways things are in Thailand, while so many do not, even after they’ve studied and lived outside Thailand for a while?
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BKK lawyer – 30
If you think and speak skeptically we usually get hammered for doing so (for being aggressive and what not) and if we got lucky we will be charge with LM so I guess that’s the reason why many Thais don’t “want” to think skeptically.
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Recall that the State Department’s 2010 Human Rights report states that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. At the time they wrote this there were 200-300 red shirts and LM victims locked up. So how is it that they are so wrong? Maybe it is the Bahrain syndrome?
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@Khun BKK Lawyer
There are a lot of Thais outside Thailand who are well-informed. You should not be surprised if Thais who live overseas are well-informed. No other country blocks 100,000+ websites, does not adhere to fair publication rule when it comes to Thai politics, and bans academic books/journal articles which are critical of Thai elites like Thailand. Thus, if you live overseas and you really want to know what’s happening in Thailand, all you need is a willingness to learn and the ability to analyse information with an open mind.
Moreover, I left Thailand since I was very little, and I was a ‘studious’ geek who ‘studied’ on my desk instead of watching TV at 8 PM when I was in school (and in college of course). Thus I did not see so much brainwashing propaganda when I was in Thailand, unlike others. In fact I could count with my bare hands how many times I saw those royal propagandas on TV. All in all, I had not been exposed to so much brainwashing stuffs like other Thais I guess.
In fact, I am more impressed of people inside Thailand who can become well-informed despite so many barriers created by the elites. It must be very hard for people in Thailand to get the actual detailed analysis of the situation in Thailand. First there is that language barrier. Secondly there is the internet barrier created by the Thai authorities. Thirdly, it is the propaganda which is being dictated to the Thais since primary schools (where Thais learn about the ‘selected’ parts of history about the greatness of the few Kings), the one-sided media etc. which many Thais would fall for it. And once you fall for it, you would disregard all not-so-positive information about the Thai elites as false or fabrication due to cognitive dissonance. I think it is much harder for become well-informed when you live in Thailand.
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#20
That’s most interesting. My mom had to choose which citizenship. Then again that was a long time ago. Perhaps things are different today, perhaps there’s a difference between male vs female?
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Nuomi $34
do you know who and how your Mum was required to choose citizenship?
some countries (I think not many) do require renouncement of previous citizenship when adopting a new one
30 years ago Australia did not require my wife to renounce her Thai (or any other citizenship) when she became an Australian citizen
also Thai immigration had no issues about renewing her Thai passport after she became an Australian citizen
however, we were quite uncertain at the time and our friends didnt know the rules
only after research into both countries regulations were we reassured that dual (or even perhaps multiple) citizenship was and is quite allowable
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I received an email response from my Senator, Mark Udall dated June 27.
http://www.markudall.senate.gov
He thanked me for writing him on this matter
and bringing to his attention the charges against Mr. Gordon.
Then he said that ” the US Embassy is providing Mr Gordon with all of their available resources.”
I hope that is true.
At least Senator Udall has made inquires on the matter.
I also hope that Mr Gordon is able to get his medications for high blood pressure and gout in order to prevent damage to his kidneys and possibly a stroke. Does anyone have any information on this?
Mr Gordon has now been incarcerated for one month.
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I wonder if the fact that he is considered a Thai citizen will lower his chances of getting a royal pardon. Hopefully not, as many foreigners charged under Article 112 have been successfully pardoned after conviction. That may be his only hope, as it looks like the U.S. Embassy is not interested in helping him. It is sad that this draconian law still exists, and it is ever sadder that it is often used by the Thai establishment as a political weapon to silence dissidents.
As Gordon’s case shows, foreigners now need to be extremely careful about when discussing anything related to the Thai royal family, especially when doing it online. Any foreigner in trouble over lese-majeste in Thailand should immediately contact their embassy and hire a Thailand Lawyer that will take their case.
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I have again contacted Senator Bennett’s office to bring this to his attention.
Below is the letter wrote.
Basically I have written to you before. Joe Gordon had lived in Colorado for 30 years.
He was Thai at birth but is an American Citizen.
!n 2007 he seems to have translated portions of the book, The King Never Smiles, from English to Thai.
The book was published in the United States by Yale University Press.
The Thai government attempted to squash that publication.
Joe lived in the US at that time.
So an American Citizen, living in the United States translated portions of a book by a respected English Speaking journalist, published by an American University Press subsequently moves back to Thailand 3 years later to visit family and seek cheaper medical treatment.
While in Thailand, he is arrested and charged with Lese Majeste (insulting the Royal Institution of the Monarchy) for the actions he took as an American in America.
A few days ago he went to a hearing to determine if, after being held 84 days, he would be released or charged— he was charged.
He now faces a court trial in coming months. He was not allowed bail.
The trial will probably be held in camera (secret).
If convicted he could be jailed for 15 years on each count. Unknown how many counts but it could be multiple.
Recently the US Embassy released its first official statement beyond being aware and providing consular support.
It was disappointed.
Please Senator, help get this man released.
Thank you,
**** *********
i
Basically I have written to you before. Joe Gordon had lived in Colorado for 30 years.
He was Thai at birth but is an American Citizen.
!n 2007 he seems to have translated portions of the book, The King Never Smiles, from English to Thai.
The book was published in the United States by Yale University Press.
The Thai government attempted to squash that publication.
Joe lived in the US at that time.
So an American Citizen, living in the United States translated portions of a book by a respected English Speaking journalist, published by an
American University Press subsequently moves back to Thailand 3 years later to visit family and seek cheaper medical treatment.
While in Thailand, he is arrested and charged with Lese Majeste (insulting the Royal Institution of the Monarchy) for the actions he took as an American in America.
A few days ago he went to a hearing to determine if, after being held 84 days, he would be released or charged he was charged.
He now faces a court trial in coming months. He was not allowed bail.
The trial will probably be held in camera (secret).
If convicted he could be jailed for 15 years on each count. Unknown how many counts but it could be multiple.
Recently the US Embassy released its first official statement beyond being aware and providing consular support.
It was disappointed.
Please Senator, help get this man released.
Thank you,
below is a respected member of the Thai blogging community with more details.
The U.S. said Friday it is disappointed Thailand has charged an American citizen with insulting the country’s monarchy, a severe offense that carries a penalty of up to 15 years in prison.
Joe Gordon allegedly translated parts of an unauthorized biography of King Bhumibol Adulyadej and posted articles online that were deemed to have defamed the royal family.
Gordon was formally charged Thursday after being arrested in May and detained for the maximum 84 days that a suspect can be held without charge.
The American has denied the charges, according to the Thai-language prachatai.com news website, which tracks cases of lese majeste, as the crime of insulting the monarchy is known.
The 54-year-old Thai-born man lived in the U.S. state of Colorado for about 30 years before returning recently to Thailand, the website said.
Thailand is a constitutional monarchy but has severe lese majeste laws that mandate a jail term of three to 15 years for any person who “defames, insults or threatens the king, the queen, the heir to the throne or the Regent.”
U.S. Embassy spokeswoman Kristin Kneedler said the U.S. has urged Thai authorities to respect freedom of expression and “was disappointed” with the charges against Gordon.
Embassy officials have had regular contact with Gordon, she said.
BP: Some comments:
A. Now, we have confirmation that Joe was not charged just over a link, but for translating part of TKNS per AP yesterday:
Lawyer Anon Numpa says his client, Joe Gordon, was charged with lese majeste for allegedly translating parts of an unauthorized biography of King Bhumibol Adulyadej and writing articles that defamed the royal family
From previous blog post then:
1. If the blog was created in 2007 and the translation completed in 2007 and he only recently returned to Thailand, this would mean he was in the United States at the time. However, a person does not have to be within the country’s physical border for a country’s law to apply to them. If the court has been conferred jurisdiction by legislation, the law will apply to that person. A court’s jurisdiction can extend beyond its borders this is known as extraterritorial jurisdiction. The Thai Criminal Code has extra-territorial jurisdiction as specified in sections 7 and sections 8. Section 7 (1) provides that person who commits national security offences, sections 107-129, outside of the Kingdom can be prosecuted in the Kingdom. Lese majeste law is a national security offence. Section 8 further requires that an aggrieved person (more accurately a person who has suffered loss which for the purpose of lese majeste could be anyone) or the Thai government must request justice.
So hence if Joe was in the US at the time, the Thai authorities don’t care.
BP: So is this a case of a extra-territorial application of lese majeste against a foreign national (yes, he is Thai too, but he is a US citizen and residing in the US in 2007)?
B. The US government statement of being disappointed sounds weak, but it is much stronger than previous US statements and in diplomat-speak it isn’t weak. As also per previous blog post:
If he denies the charges and pleads not guilty, then it could be a very messy trial if the trial is held in camera (i.e in secret). How will US Senators, other lawmakers, opinion-makers, and others respond?* This has the makings of being the most high profile lese majeste arrest given the citizenship of the the person arrested and particularly if he pleads not guilty.
BP: Well, according to Prachatai, he has denied the charges (not sure that this a formal denial), but indeed this could get very messy although we are a few months away from a trial still.
Now, Yingluck is in government , what will she do? Yingluck has previously mentioned that the priority was to focus on economic problems and we are likely months away from a trial in Joe’s case – although Chiranuch’s trial is scheduled to recommence on September 1 (details of the case schedule can be found here) – but Yingluck could also come under pressure from the red shirts given Jatuporn has stated he will not use his parliamentary immunity in regards to lese majeste charges. Then, you have news reports that President Obama is likely to visit Thailand in November. One would imagine that the US would, at least, privately raise Thailand’s human rights record and given a US citizen has been charged this becomes directly relevant* then this could be on the agenda too…
*If Obama does visit, will he be granted an audience with HM the King?
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Now that the U.S. Embassy has released the following statement re: the imprisonment of Joe Gordon:
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Embassy Statement on U.S. Citizen Joe Gordon
The United States is disappointed by the prosecutor’s decision to file lese majeste charges against U.S. citizen Joe Gordon. We have discussed Mr. Gordon’s case extensively with Thai authorities, stressing at every possible opportunity his rights as an American citizen. We urge the Thai authorities to ensure freedom of expression is respected and that Mr. Gordon, a U.S. citizen, receives fair treatment.
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the question arises as to when, if ever, Amnesty International Thailand and AI’s royalist/PAD/Yellow sympathizer in Thailand, Benjamin Zawacki, will issue any statement at all on behalf of Joe Gordon.
Or will Amnesty International Thailand and Benjamin Zawacki’s position remain that there is only one “political prisoner” in all of Thailand and that the draconian Lese Majeste law is necessary for Thailand’s “security”?
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Re: BP’footnote:
* If Obama does visit, will he be granted an audience with HM the King?
If Obama accepts an invitation to an audience with the King wont this be seen as his accepting the supression of free speech contrary to the recent remarks made by his embassy here?
If Obama declines an invitation would this not constitute the ultimate act of Lese Majeste?
If on the other hand no invitation is issued wont this be seen as the ultimate snub to the most powerful man on earth, a person who can destroy us all with but one command and imperil relations between the USA and Thailand?
If Obama does come here which ever way you look at it he loses and would be wise to avoid the kingdom, unless of course he confronts the establishment here and forces them to abolish both the lese majeste law and the other laws which make free speech a crime.
Anyone taking bets?
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Everyone is talking about how unfair this is…….but……. he is a Thai narional who knew what he was doing. Every Thai knows that it is an offence yet not only did he break the law he returned to Thailand knowing he broke the law and would be arrested. Everyone has the right to break the law but also must face the consequences. Just becaise someone disagrees with a law it doesn’t mean it is OK to flout it and avoid the consequences.
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I have been reading the posts about the US government’s ability to help a US citizen in cases such as this. My UK passport specifically mentions that the UK government cannot assist in cases where a person of dual nationality has a problem in a country where one is a nationaal of that country. In other words, if a UK citizen with dual nationality, the other nationality being Thai, commits an offence in Thailand the UK government cannot assist or interfere.
In this case, Joe Gordon’s case, the US is in a similar position. They cannot interfere in the Thai government’s decision to prosecute a Thai national in Thailand.
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Peter
I am sorry but the US has intervened on many many occasions on behalf of murderers, rapists etc if they are linked to the US military or security services. Ask the Japanese, the Koreans, Filipinos, Pakistanis about this. Probably about a dozen examples in total.
It is clear to me that they have gone for the line of saying as little as possible while continuing to deal with things in “private” (or, what is usually known as in “secret”) where they are beyond the reach of accountability and transparency, because of the pernicious influence of Ben Zawacki and Amnesty. Unfortunately, Amnesty give the USA (and other embassies) a perfect get out clause on LM. But AI’s “say as little as possible while having secret discussions” is a complete and total failure. This policy has taken place against a backdrop of the largest increase in LM cases in Thailand’s history.
The US Amb Kenney is also clearly far more interested in hosting parties and taking part in absolutely tacky photo shoots for the ridiculous Tatler Thailand than engaging with serious issues such as a US national being incarcerated in a Thai prison for exercising his right to freedom of expression in the US. The Embassy/State Department are also far keener to maintain their long-term relationship with the incredibly anti-democratic Thai military than they would ever seek to align themselves with genuine pro-democracy elements in Thai society.
The US are an obvious part of the problem in Thailand.
How they’ve been able to get away with this with such little comment is incredible (the CP’s 737, what his kids allegedly think of him etc etc is just tabloid crap in comparison).
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Peter,
I think many of the comments indicate not that it is unfair because he was an American citizen but rather that the lese majeste law and its application is inherently unfair to anyone.
Joe Gordon is only one of many people who have been treated badly. Anyone who has been charged or imprisoned for lese majeste has been denied what the United Nations Charter on Human Rights says they should have. Freedom of thought and expression.
Also, even given the fact that Thai law is as it is, you should grant him the presumption of innocence and not say that he has broken that law. He has been found guilty of nothing so far.
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@Andrew Spooner #43
I am glad you mentioned about the Human Rights Convention. However ratification of a Convention does not mean thst States have to adhere to that Convention. The Parliament (as a supreme law making body) still needs to legislate that convention into domestic law before you can enforce it in the domstic courts.
Of course there are some countries which their Courts will accept the Convention as part of their law after ratification (such as Holland, Italy etc) but there are also countries which their domestic Courts would not care about the Convention at all. Unfortunately Thailand is a country in a latter category.
If the USA wants to help Mr Gordon, the place they can seek action is only the ICJ. Then the ICJ will enforce the Convention against Thailand to have Mr Gordon released. However I do not see the likelihood of that happening. The USA currently enjoys so much benefits from the Thai elites, while Mr Gordon is merely a pensioner.
If Mr Gordon is a billionaire who pays more taxes than the combined benefits USA receive from the Thai elites, then the USA might risk losing the benefits they receive from the Thai elites to help him out. But as it is I don’t think they would want to risk cutting the ties and the benefits they receive from Thailand just for a pensioner whose earnings come from its country’s taxes.
Sorry to be harsh, but this is the sad truth. International law, despite its many principles, can be political. And there is nothing anyone can do to enforce the US to do anything to help Mr Gordon, unfortunately.
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When it comes to International Law the USA is in a class of its own as Noam Chomsky illustrates in detail in “Failed States – The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy”. Simply said – Internationa Law applies to all states except the USA.
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tom hoy (44): Of course everyone is presumed innocent until found guilty. On that basis Gordon should be allowed bail; but I wouldn’t be willing to take any bets that he’ll be found not guilty. I would guess it’s a foregone conclusion.
Andrew Spooner (43): The point peter (43) was making is that governments say they can’t help in cases where a dual nationality holder is accused in the other country. You say there are about a dozen cases where the US has helped in such a situation. Could you please give details?
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Chris B
My response was to comment 41, not 42 which wasnt posted when I wrote mine.
Even so, the mention of dual nationality is complete sophistry so that expats can rationalise their way out of supporting Joe.
I am sorry but it is pathetic.
Joe was arrested for one reason only – to create fear among Thais living abroad. To tell them they are being monitored and will be prosecuted for the tiniest infraction of the lese majeste law.
What is utterly sickening is the queue of people who then spend their entire time finding ways to rationalise what has happened to Joe.
The US steps far far far beyond international law and mores when it suits its interests.
Unfortunately Joe’s well being and basic human rights are of little interest.
Joe is a US citizen and resident. Regardless of his birth place he has the absolute right to expect full support from his government.
If some of his fellow US citizens are too cowardly to do this then they shouldn’t get in the way of those who are willing ot raise their voices.
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Andrew Spooner spot on again about the arrest of Joe being to frighten oveseas Thais, just as Surapong Jayanama went down under to intimidate Thai students at the ANU.
As for cowardly US foreigners here, aren’t these the people who “respect the King”, hate Taksin and support murderous Mark and the coup d’etat? And aren;t ther a lot of them?
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CT #28
No, the embassy did not protest publicly when Mr Nicolaides was jailed, but there was a lot of discrete lobbying behind the scene that secured his release after six months. Public criticism would have been counter-productive. Offend the Thai legal system and they would have taken it out on the victim within their grasp.
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@Khun Seh Fah,
My post in #28 was meant to say that the Aussies did not come to protest on the street when Harry Nicolaides was jailed. I never meant to talk about the Australian Embassy.
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Seh Fah.
It wasn’t “back room” negotiations that freed Harry.
It was the simple fact he admitted his “guilt” and begged for forgiveness.
Joe, Somyot, Da Torpedo etc etc have refused to do that.
That’s why they are unlikely to be freed.
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I think that behind the scenes representations by members of the Australian government may have played some role in Harry’s release.
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On the point of foreigners trying to help compatriots caught up in this cruel law, when Harry was in jail here I went to the Australian Embassy to enquire what was being done by them to help the lad. I was stonewalled with the response “Privacy provisions do not permit us to discuss any individual case” or words to that effect.
What should I have done given that response? Do we need a website which lists every prisoner and his current status, place of torture – that’s how Harry described it, how to visit etc so we can be of more assistance?
What’s more Andrew, without somebody in the Australian system having the guts to leak details of their secret dealings why should any credance be given to any thoughts of what might have happened in “behind the scenes representations” . Just look at the fuss and bother Thailand caused over their attempt to steal Preah Vihear. Perhaps it is time they were given similarly harsh treatment over this important civil rights issue?
But then Black Kettle Australia over its treatment of refugees may find it hard to call any Pot Black?
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AW@53: Can you be clearer? Do you mean that members of the Australian government convinced Harry to plead guilty? Or something else?
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Australian citizens in Thailand are subject to Thai law, no matter how unfair those laws may be by what some consider Western standards.
I believe that Mr. Nicolaides was arrested to serve as a salutary example that would deter other farang writers in Thailand from publishing negative comments about the royal family. If that was their aim, they succeeded. I know quite a few journalists in Thailand, and the punishment meted out to Mr. Nicolaides has made them all very wary indeed. If you want to criticize the royal family, do a Handley and do it while safely outside Thailand, with no intention of ever returning. Otherwise the topic is off limits.
Harry’s original sentence was six years. There were those in the Thai legal system who wanted him to serve every single day. He was granted a royal pardon, well before he would normally have been considered eligible for one, primarily because of the representations made on his behalf by Australian diplomats, representations that were most unlikely to have been successful if the diplomat in question was giving progress reports and a running commentary to any curious busybody. They deserve some recognition.
If anyone wants to contact a prisoner, their details are taken and the decision is left to the prisoner. Not all of them are anxious to receive visitors from journalists or the curious. Believe it or not, there really are privacy provisions and they really are rigorously applied. That’s not stonewalling, that’s common sense.
Under Thai law it’s a pre-condition for the granting of a pardon in such cases that the miscreant/victim (delete the description you disagree with) publicly expresses contrition, apologises, begs forgiveness, promises never to do it again, and expresses gratitude for the king’s benevolence. You might not like it, but that is how things are done in Thailand, and the situation is not going to change under the Yingluck “na kha” government.
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Ricky #49
You remind me of World War Two, when Hitler with his 6 million concentration camp victims was the hated enemy, while Stalin with his 12 million conecntration camp victim was the gallant ally.
If 91 dead makes Abhisit “murderous Mark”, does the much greater combined total for Tak Bai/Krueseh Mosque/the War on Drugs make Thaksin “monstrous Maew”?
Whatever we call him, he’s NOT the Thai version of Nelson Mandela or Aung San Suu Kyi.
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Seh Fah #57
Wow, the usual PAD-analogy would be Thaksin Hitler, but in your comment Mark is Hitler and Thaksin would be Stalin … was it really your intent to make such a comparison (and of course you broke Godwins law)
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Seh Fah // Aug 23, 2011 at 1:11 pm #56
yes, Nickolaides was an example to stifle free speech around the world
Thai elites trying to impose their repressive, anti-democratic controls over anyone interested in the country
no country can claim to be democratic while there are any people and institutions, such as royalty and military generals that are not under control of and accountable to the people of the country though their elected representative government
I wonder how you can be confident that these things will not change in the term of the Yingluck government, is it because you think the Royals and Generals will manage to keep their control for this much longer?
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David Brown #59
What we saw on 3rd July was a change in elites, from one headed by Murderous Mark to one headed by Monstrous Maew. Neither of them anywhere near as evil as Hitler or Stalin, of course, but just as Hitler and Stalin were similar in many ways, so too are Murderous Mark and Monstrous Maew. For example, both of them have little liking for a free press. Murderous Mark showed how to use the lese majeste laws to good effect, and I’m sure that Monstrous Maew will follow suit. And like Churchill, anyone can choose to describe one as a hated enemy and the other as a gallant ally, depending on the benefits or disadvantages resulting from their policies.
Now that Murderous Maew has won office, his first priority is to emasculate the UDD/Red Shirts. They may have won the election for him, but how many of their core leaders were rewarded with ministerial portfolios?
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David Brown 59′
I think you ll find a majority of punters on this site believe the Shinawatra clan represent regime change rather than political reform. I personally believe it is dynastic regime change they aim for in the long run. Whether this involves any social democratic progress for the masses as a by product remains to be seen – I doubt it.
No party has anything to gain by repealing the les majeste law which serves to protect whoever wields political power. The mobilization of nationalist sentiment and self righteousness goes to the core of political control of the masses.
And sorry Mr Godwin but I quite like the Hitler/Stalin analogy. Inflated, crude and blunt but an effective satirical comparison – not without merit IMO!
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Billy Budd #61
“No party has anything to gain by repealing the les majeste law which serves to protect whoever wields political power. The mobilization of nationalist sentiment and self righteousness goes to the core of political control of the masses.”
if I can understand what you are saying you consider it is not in any parties benefit to remove the royals/privy council from political power
seems to me that the Thaksin inspired parties are trying to rely on the support of the people at the ballot box for their power
but the royals/other elites/military generals are in the way and use LM as one of their mechanisms of control
therefore its obvious to me (whose mind is relatively unsullied by Sondhi Lim’s royalist rantings) that it will benefit any democratically elected government to remove LM
I wonder if there is a difference in opinions of those that have lived through Sondhi Lim’s rantings and those that have not? (minor research topic?)
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as to the second part of the statement….
“The mobilization of nationalist sentiment and self righteousness goes to the core of political control of the masses.”
this seems to be at utter variance with the facts….
the popularity of the Thaksin governments with the majority of the people resides in the actual achievement of benefits for all the people (even the elites, except the CP, use Suvarnabumi airport?)
the unpopularity of the Thaksin and Thaksin inspired governments with a minority of the people resides in the fear that his government will achieve radical political and social reform in Thailand
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Ji has the view that the major benificiary of the Lese Majeste law is the army. The people who make the coups. So I agree with the view that Taksins people should be the winners if 112 is abolished. Of course the yellows will make a fuss but the proces defending this reform will be a joy to participate in. I imagine there are genuine royalists who would much prefer a European stlye monarchy who will support the reform.
I would like to ask Thai folk I know their opinion. Could somebody please tell us all what is the Thai term for Lese Majeste?
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Billy Budd #61
Thank you. I love your observation that my use of the Hitler/Stalin analogy was “inflated, crude and blunt”. It proves beyond any shadow of doubt that my year at the Royal Thai Army Command and General Staff College was time well spent.
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Ricky # 64
Du min phra boromma dechanuphap. And I would be prepared to bet that the Yingluck “Na Kha” Government will retain it. Too strong a weapon to throw away.
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I think Craig Reynolds article “Autocratic Rule in Thailand” goes to the heart of it and Chang Noi’s recent publication on Khun Phaen probably also, though I haven’t yet read it.
The nation loves a strongman. be it Sarit, Thaksin, King Narasuen or Samak. the Les Majeste law, like the anti-communist laws of the recent past is used to stifle discussion, oppress dissent, and promulgate military coup d’etats. It’s a convenient tool for whoever is running the show and far too valuable to remove. I believe the noble Police Colonel Chalerm of the recently elected Pheua Thai Party has stated today that there will be no changes to the law (in the interests of “National Security” of course) and who am I to doubt him? I will probably continue to whinge about it as it upsets my inculcated western sense of progress, democracy and fair play but at the end of the day it’s for empowered and enfranchised thais to decide isn’t it(??)
How and whom becomes empowered is of course the fascinating part of New Mandala and Thai history of the last seventy years.
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I”I would like to ask the Thai people what is the Thai term for les-majeste”…
It’s about 15 years…
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Billy Budd #66
Harry was out in six months. Clear evidence of the effectiveness of discrete diplomacy.
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Seh Fah
You said -
“Harry was out in six months. Clear evidence of the effectiveness of discrete diplomacy.”
There is no real evidence of this – just hearsay from you and Andrew Walker (the same person who previously said veracity was relatively meaningless).
Harry was freed cos he confessed and because he showed the correct kind of contrition.
If he’d gone for a not guilty plea and refused to grovel it is an almost cast-iron certainty he’d still be in a Thai prison.
Why do you think Suwicha Thakor was released (he had to think of his kid) while Da T isn’t?
I would suggest you and others stick to the evidence rather that what you imagine Australia’s “diplomatic” power to be.
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Seh Fah: It is clear evidence of the pressure to plead guilty.
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The commentary seems to be degenerating to the level of trivia, howeber I would like to comment on the statement that LM ” upsets my inculcated western sense of progress, democracy and fair play”.
Well it didn’t seem to upset the King, born in the USA and educated in Europe nor Mark ex Oxford. If one looks at the double standards regularly applied in the West one realises that fair play is applicable only when one plays e.g. rugger, snooker or in debates at the club ( e.g Palace of Westminster, Capitol Hill ).
Democracy is repugnant to Western elites just as it is to Thai. So for example when Haitians wanted Aristide for President neither Clinton, Bush jr not Obama would have it. When Palestine at free elections voted for Hamas the USA & EU punished the people who made the wrong choice.
Further the USA in particular has since 1945 engineered so many murderous coups d’etat and regime changes contrary to the wishes of its own people that I am encouraged by the news that Andrew Spooner is working at exposing how the dirty deals between the US and Thai military are supressing democracy in Thailand.
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The comparison to Hitler and Stalin is absurd and is proof of an extremely poor understanding of history. Also very poor satire if meant so. My family having had to feed on of the escapes of a German camp (a teacher having had the courage of thinking differently), we know to make certain differences, if you know what I mean.
Yingluck has no intention at all to start abolishment of LM Law. The people which voted for her have in the meantime understood and are preparing themselves for actions. The problem of Joe is not that he is half Thai-American; his problem is that in Thailand no one cannot think and say what he wants. It has become a law which is utilized in a Stasi way, i.e. everybody can denounce his neighbor and bring him to jail, like in Pakistan when you denounce one for being a Christian. In reality, para 112 should only be valid when and if the king himself intents action, like it is the case in European monarchies.
Yingluck has herself prostrated herself before the king’s portrait, same rules as the ones in North Korea. As the king has to sign all important acts, it’s another proof that we are in an absolute monarchy and certainly not in a constitutional monarchy, whatever the various constitutions might say (paper is patient and accepts anything you write on it). So she will follow the king’s instructions and having only some “liberty” in economic questions as the army proofed itself totally incompetent in this chapter and her brother will guide her. That’s how a legally elected “democratic” government works in Thailand. Furthermore Thaksin is becoming welcome in many countries, not only states like Montenegro or Nicaragua, i.e. politicians of more important economies are aware that the 60 years of royal reign are rapidly coming to an end, that the heirs at best will have only very limited power, if at all they survive the coming turmoil.
By the way, she and her brother thought it more important to celebrate the queen’s birthday instead of thanking all the people who have been sacrificed for the fight for democracy.
The voters of PT have not forgotten this total lack of respect for the ones who have fought during 5 years (informal body-count amounts presently to >2’000 and not only to 90 or some). They are also angry that no action is taken to abolish the LM law but they also are learning fast from what’s going on in Lybia, Yemen etc. and how, and are piling up arms. If the Thaksin Group thinks he can resolve this boiling unrest with economic measures and despite the fact that the lousy economy is hurting the middle class it’s not any more sufficient. Has anyone ever seen a multimillionaire fighting and scarifying himself to impose democracy against dictatorship! This will end in violence and there will be only one winner, i.e. the party which has the larger number of people.
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Andrew Spooner #70
I was employed at the embassy throughout the Nocolaides saga. I know from personal observation the effort that was put into securing Harry’s early (make that very early – a six-year sentence was reduced to six months) release, and I believe the diplomats involved deserve praise,not ill-informed criticism. Without them, he would still be in gaol. What would you have had to say about their efforts if you had been in Harry’s position?
Please don’t think for one moment that I support the lese majeste legislation or any other restrictions on free speech, which in Thailand are truly draconian and the reason why I use a pseudonym.
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Seh Fah
Where have i criticised the Aus Embassy and the efforts of the staff?
What I actually criticised was an anonymous source.
And relying on anonymous sources, hearsay, rumour, gossip etc is the way most discussions on Thailand go.
Let’s stick to the facts – going for a guilty plea on LM gets you a reduced sentence. Then, to secure a “pardon” for LM, certain acts of supplication must be undertaken.
If you don’t undertake these acts you will not be released.
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Where have you criticised the Australian Embassy and the efforts of the staff? In your assessment that there was no real evidence of discrete and effective diplomacy. The evidence lies in the fact that Harry was released after serving a fraction of his sentence. Without the efforts of the embassy staff, he could still be in gaol. Simply going for a guilty plea would have been insufficient. What had to be overcome was the desire to make a salutary example of Harry to deter any other naughty Western writers from criticizing CP in print, a matter of considerable importance given the possibility of royal succession sooner rather than later. Persuading the powers that be that 6 months was long enough was a praiseworthy achievement by our embassy.
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Seh Fah
Saying there is no evidence is not a criticism.
And there isn’t any evidence apart from hearsay – there are no documents and nobody from the Aus Embassy has come forward and said this publicly (I am sorry but anonymous posters on comments forums don’t really count). And even then there are other far larger factors that would have come into play.
There is also, I’m afraid, absolutely no way at all of judging the effectivity of the Aus Embassy’s “quiet diplomacy” versus other forms of nosier Embassy involvement.
Yet, what is absolutely certain is that every LM prisoner who pleads guilty and then completes the right form of grovelling apology is released – Australian or not (eg Thai national Suwicha Thakor).
Those who don’t are kept in prison.
That’s a direct, provable comparison.
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Seh Fah: Can you point to any foreigner who has not been pardoned and served a fraction of their sentence following a guilty plea? That has been the pattern. You say you worked at the embassy. So tell us: Did the embassy put pressure on Harry to plead guilty? Did they tell him things would be easier on him if he did? Tell us more about what the embassy did.
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hmmm… its usual for bureaucrats to try to milk each situation to the maximum for their own benefit (isnt it?)
the embassy “activity” may have helped but I assume their is no objective evidence actually linking any particular activity of ordinary (ie non CIA, US military) government agencies with the machinations of the Thai judicial, privy council and royal processes in this or probably any other case
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I believe that guilty plea is something which no one should be forced to do. Yes we all know that one who pleads guilty will be pardoned in LM cases. The issue, however, is what guilt did these people commit? They merely exercise their basic human rights to political preference, right to express and hold a political view etc. permissible under Human Rights Convention. How can you force someone to admit that they are guilty when they have no guilt to admit?
I think the decision to plead guilty is the most painful decision LM prisoners must face. They know it is the only way that they will be out of the horrible conditions inside (inhumane) Thai cells, but to admit that they are guilty when they have no guilt to admit, is a serious insult to one’s dignity as a human being. The more I think of it, the more I hate how Thailand is nowadays.
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“Free Joe. Now!”
Joe Gordon would rather hear that from the US government than “disappointment.” Lisa Gardner has a new report on Joe Gordon on Prachatai: “‘Disappointment’ from the United States is not enough”.
http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/2725
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Bad laws and their consequences should be opposed by all possible means.
If the Australian government (or other governments) work behind the scenes to secure the release of people who suffer under these laws, that’s good.
If other people protest against these laws openly and forcefully, that’s good too.
Free Harry Nicolaides and free Da Torpedo.
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I believe the case of “Da Torpedo” was based on an inflammatory Bolshevik rendering to the assembled throng which could not go unanswered by the powers that be. An actual transcript is hard to trackdown. Could anyone here reprint the alleged statements made for a considered and objective analysis?
I just wonder if a muslim leader in Australia made statements to a street assembly threatening the lives of members of government how it would be perceived and dealt with?
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Just to be clear – this notion of “quiet effective diplomacy” as the only route available to foreign governments to protest LM laws being used to incarcerate their nationals is completely and entirely spurious.
It seems more like a way to shut down meaningful and direct protest to spare the blushes of Thailand’s international partners.
And lets get this right – the likes of the US and Australia are key allies of Thailand. That they should “quietly” ask for their citizens to be released from the application of censorious charges that are almost certainly a breach of international law and Thailand’s own international HR obligations just reveals how implicated these governments are in sustaining Thailand’s present power structures.
The real question is not how effective clandestine, unaccountable “quiet diplomacy” is but why wasn’t the Australian government raising merry hell about their citizen being incarcerated under LM?
I mean the USA and Australian governments have raised their voices continually and extremely loudly to get a Burmese national, Aung San Suu Kyi, released from incarceration in Burma so why on earth can’t they create the same noise when their own nationals are imprisoned in equally unjust circumstances in Thailand?
Or does moral relativism and cultural sensitivity only apply to the Thais?
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Working behind the scenes just supports the continued use of these laws. Raising hell, as Andrew says, would probably be more useful for Joe Gordon and maybe, just maybe, embarrass the Thai government in to really doing something about it.
The LM law is a chancre on Thailand’s image. But alas, states and their diplomats prefer stealth and sneakery and so keep the wound oozing.
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I’d like to contribute a letter to BKK Post from Guy Baker today for discussion…..
Now the shoe is on the other foot for the US concerning Viktor Bout and Joe Gordon.
Viktor Bout violated no Thai law while in Thailand, no US law while in the US and no Colombian law while in Colombia; yet, he has been imprisoned for years for proposing something in Thailand that might have impacted Colombia, thus possibly violating US law _ and he was imprisoned as a result of unprecedented political pressure from the US government.
That has left the US government defenceless with regard to Joe Gordon: he is accused of violating Thai lese majeste laws while in the US and is being held in Thailand.
If Viktor Bout can be tried in the US, courtesy of Thailand, for allegedly violating US law in some non-specific place, then Joe Gordon can be tried for violating Thai lese majeste laws while he was in the US.
Thai lese majeste laws must be respected as much as US anti-terrorism laws, as they are a matter of Thai national security.
GUY BAKER
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Andrew Spooner #77
I disagree that “anonymous posters on comments forums don’t really count”. Like most other posters living in Thailand, I am constrained by the fact that I do not wish to spend time in a Thai gaol, but as a long-term resident I believe I can offer useful comment. I take it you do not live in Thailand.
Ralph Kramden #78
I understand the embassy concentrated on pointing out the damage being done to Thailand’s international reputation to justify Harry’s early relase. Pounding the table would have been counter-productive. Despite Kevin Rudd’s use of that ridiculous cliche about Australia “punching above its weight” in international relations, the fact of the matter is that we cannot simply demand a desired outcome. Perhaps some of our braver posters who are prepared to put their names to their comments could have done a better job. Why not join DFAT and show us how it should be done?
U. Chemp #73.
Thank you for your constructive comment about my “extremely poor understanding of history”. From now on I shall confine my remarks to matters on which I am better informed. And now, could you please give me your views on Mr. Robert Fisk, and his article in Sunday’s Bangkok Post?
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Seh Fah
But your comment is not only anonymous it is also unsubstantiated and its only evidence is based on the comment itself.
Therefore it can’t really be taken that seriously.
I am also not sure how your comments concerning Aus embassy involvement leave you open to arrest and imprisonment.
“Pounding the table would’ve been counter-productive”. For whom? Australian govt and business interests? Such “table pounding” by the US was incredibly effective in Pakistan in the Raymond Davis case and in the Subic rape case in the Philippines – they got their people free (rapists/killers = good v bloggers = bad).
And why, given this “effective diplomacy”, have LM cases skyrocketed in the last few years? One could argue that the international communty’s insipid response has actually emboldened the use of LM.
Do you think all human rights abuses should be greeted with such “quiet effective diplomacy”?
Or is Thailand a special case?
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David Brown #79
I’m a little bemused by your suggestion that “it’s usual for bureaucrats to try to milk each situation to the maximum for their own benefit”. How exactly were Australian consular officers and other embassy “bureaucrats”, as you call them, milking Harry’s incarceration for their own benefit?
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Seh Fah #89
“milking Harry’s incarceration for their own benefit?”
no, claiming success after his release is what I had in mind.
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Andrew Spooner #88
Not all of my posted comments leave me open to charges of lese majeste, but some of them have. I would never have expected Harry’s comments to see him arrested and sentenced to six years in gaol, but he was. Unlike those who are safely outside Thailand and have no plans to return, I’m not prepared to take that risk.
If my comments are unsubstantiated, then so are those of many others. They still contain information which I consider interesting and worthy of serious consideration.
“Pounding the table would’ve been counter-productive”. For whom? For Harry. If Australia had objected loudly and publicly, he would have spent a considerably longer time in gaol. The US is able to apply far heavier pressure on Pakistan and the Philippines than Australia ever could on Thailand. Persuasion has far more chance of success. The aim of the Thai treatment of Harry was deterrence, and it certainly appears to have worked. Name one Australian writer who has since made similar comments and then returned to Thailand to test the reaction. And no, I don’t think all human rights abuses should be greeted with such “quiet effective diplomacy”. I don’t think Thailand is a special case. But I do think that negotiation without the unwelcome glare of publicity can be more effective than strident public demands, compliance with which would be humiliating. No-one, and certainly not the Thai government, likes to be told what to do. They’re rather more receptive to polite requests.
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Reading Seh Fah’s comment:
“No-one, and certainly not the Thai government, likes to be told what to do. They’re rather more receptive to polite requests.”
I wonder if he would be suggesting a polite letter writing campaign, perhaps to the new Prime Minister?
If readers agree with this please leave Thumb Up otherwise down.
And if anybody has a suggeested form of words please post them.
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Seh Fah
Yes history is littered with draconian human rights abusing regimes that respond to “polite requests”.
And Thailand’s a great example of that.
Maybe try speaking to the families of the dead medical workers, Red Shirts etc and ask them how they feel about making “polite requests”?
Sarcasm aside I can’t think of one regime in history with a back story like Thailand’s that has changed due to “polite requests”. In fact similar regimes just view such insipid comment as reason to extend any oppression they engage in as they know they won’t be properly opposed. I think it is called “appeasement”. Thailand, if we look at recent history, is no different.
As someone who returns to Thailand regularly, spending considerable time there (3months so far in 2011), yet still feels the need to speak out on such issues as LM, I make my own carefully nuanced choices about what I say and how.
You make an assertion that Harry would’ve spent less time in jail based on an unverifiable and unaccountable process of which even somebody who claims to be a part of it (yourself) won’t put their real name to.
Extraordinary.
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Seh Fah: Damn, I wish I hadn’t included that last sentence: Tell us more…? It distracted you from the questions. I thought you’d know, because you said: “I was employed at the embassy throughout the Nocolaides saga. I know from personal observation the effort that was put into securing Harry’s early (make that very early – a six-year sentence was reduced to six months) release…”. You see, I thought you were speaking from personal involvement. But now you say, “I understand the embassy concentrated on…”. So I was mistaken and you are not a first-hand participant. Sorry.
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Andrew Spooner #93; Ralph Kramden #79
When an Australian citizen is arrested in Thailand it is the responsibility of the embassy’s consular section to try to ensure that they are treated fairly according to Thai law.
In Harry’s case, the embassy lobbied successfully for a royal pardon. As I said before (#56), a pre-condition for the granting of a pardon is that the miscreant/victim (delete the description you disagree with) publicly expresses contrition, apologises, begs forgiveness, promises never to do it again, and expresses gratitude for the king’s benevolence. This was made perfectly clear to Harry by his Thai lawyer, who was retained with embassy assistance.
I was not a member of the consulate staff and so I was not directly involved, but I did discuss the case with those who were and I know the effort that went into getting Harry pardoned. To say that he was released for no other reason than “the simple fact he admitted his guilt and begged for forgiveness” and that “it wasn’t back room negotiations that freed him” is incorrect. Without embassy involvement, he would in all likelihood still be in gaol.
Joe, Somyot, Da Torpedo and others are Thai citizens and the Australian embassy’s consular staff cannot become involved. They were charged under a Thai law which neither the previous Democrat Government nor the current Phuea Thai Government have any intention of amending. I doubt very much that simply admitting their guilt and begging for forgiveness would free any of them.
Finally, please remember that I was talking about freeing one Australian citizen on lese majeste charges, not about trying to reform a draconian human rights abusing regime with polite requests.
If you would like to take the discussion a little further, please let me know of your next trip to Bangkok and we can do so over a beer at the FCCT.
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Seh Fah
Sorry but your “evidence” just doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever.
Suwicha Thakor admitted his guilt, begged for forgiveness etc and was released.
He is a Thai national.
Nothing to do with Australia. At all.
I am sure some people at the Australian Embassy are horrified by LM laws and Thailand’s cyclical use of massacre and coup – but quite clearly “quiet effective diplomacy” has proven useless in the face of all this.
Western diplomats haven’t been so supine in the face of Burmese repression why should they be so insipid in the face of similar circumstances in Thailand?
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This “debate” is getting boring. For one, I am happy to take Seh Fah’s comments about Australian embassy representations as one element in what is a very complex mix. At the time of Harry’s arrest and trial I was an outspoken critic of the Australian government’s low-key approach to the issue. Naturally, I had some doubts about the position I was taking (though I stand by it and would do it again), worrying about possible adverse impacts on Harry’s position. I was open to the possibility that behind the scenes action was underway and I hoped that it may have some positive effect. Seh Fah’s comments indicate that such action was taken and that it may have helped secure Harry’s earlier release. Of course we cannot put too much confidence in anonymous comments, but as I note above, I am happy to treat it as another piece in a very complicated jigsaw puzzle. Seh Fah’s comments are also consistent with what a trusted member of the Australian government told me. I don’t think comparisons with other cases are particularly useful (this is not some sort of controlled experiment). I imagine that each case is surrounded by all sorts of complex and specific micro-politics and negotiations. Seh Fah has provided some hints about some of the dealings behind Harry’s case. I welcome that. It is no confirmation that one approach to lese majeste charges is better than another, but it is exactly the sort of “local knowledge” that we are happy to host on New Mandala.
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Andrew Walker
The evidence overwhelmingly shows that the single, unifying factor that has contributed to early release for LM charges, whether prisoners are Thai, Swiss, Australian or otherwise is an admission of guilt, followed by suitable amounts of bowing and scrapping.
I know that such “veracity” might seem uninteresting and “boring” when there’s anonymous sources and unaccountable and unverifiable “evidence” to chew over.
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Boring? Not fo9r me. As I said above, I was under the impression that we were getting an insider story on Harry and the Australian Embassy and DFAT. That would seem to no longer be the case – my mistake, as I said. Seh Fah now says “I was not a member of the consulate staff and so I was not directly involved, but I did discuss the case with those who were…”. Oh well, maybe Harry will eventually tell us what he knows. Any idea, Andrew, why he hasn’t?
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Andrew Spooner #98
Thank you, Andrew, for correcting my mistaken impression that the Australian Embassy’s actions following the arrest of Harry Nicolaides may have had a positive effect in presuading the Thai Government to pardon and deport him after serving six months of a six year sentence. I was clearly quite wrong, and should never had suggested such an absurd explanation. From now on I will do my level best to match your own carefully nuanced choices about what I say and how I say it.
I have one query. If you had been the Australian ambassador to Thailand at the time of Harry’s arrest, what exactly would you have done to secure his release? I assume it would not have involved any resort to diplomacy, which the Macquarie Dictionary defines as follows:
1. The conduct by government officials of negotiations and other relations between states.
2. The science of conducting such negotiations.
3. Skill in managing any negotiations; artful management.
I also have a request. After Andrew has told us all what he would have done to get Harry out of gaol, could everyone else please tell me which approach they would prefer in the unfortunate event of their arrest on lese majeste charges.
Over to you, Andrew.
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Ralph Kramden #99
How far inside do you have to be to qualify as an insider? Regular lunchtime discussions with the consular case officer just a little too far out of the loop?
Credibility reduced by the use of a pseudonym? I’m old enough to remember The Honeymooners. Don’t tell me Ralph Kramden is your real name.
I would love to hear Harry’s reflections on his experience. He did write a very nice “thank you” letter to his case officer.
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Andrew Walker #97
Thank you, Andrew, for acknowledging that my comments are consistent with what a trusted member of the Australian government told you. And of course you can’t identify him by name, or expect him to provide you with written evidence, because he’s bound by the Official Secrets Act and doesn’t want to do a Bradley Manning.
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Hold on…. A person using a pseudonym is attacking me for using one? Or am I wrong again and Seh Fah is a real name?
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Ralph Kramden #103.
Not attacking you, comrade. Simply pointing out that the use of a pseudonym doesn’t necessarily mean that our posts, yours and mine, are lacking in value or credibility. Lacking in a carefully nuanced choice of words, perhaps, but still worth reading.
Seh Fah is my real nickname. The Thai Army Staff College is called the Rong Rian Senathikan Thahan Bok, with rong rian meaning school, senathikan meaning staff duties and procedures, and thahan bok meaning military.
Any graduate of the school is entitled to put the informal title “seh”, the first syllable of senathikan, in front of his nickname. Strictly speaking it could perhaps be translated as “staff”, but that is the English nickname for a lowly staff sergeant, whereas the typical staff college graduate holds the much more exalted rank of lieutenant colonel, hence the preference for transliteration.
No doubt you have heard of the late Seh Daeng, hero of the Red Shirt revolution and a fellow graduate of the Thai Army Staff College. Daeng means red and is a common Thai nickname for someone of ruddy complexion. When I told him that in Australia someone with red hair used to be nicknamed Bluey, he took to calling me Seh Fah (fah meaning blue) and the nickname stuck.
Had Seh Daeng survived to rise to the rank of general and to occupy a powerful command position, he would have become Big Daeng, big being short for big boss. Transliteration works both ways. I would love to see my Thai Army colleague Seh Mac become a general.
So why Ralph Kramden? A physical resemblance to Jackie Gleason? A natural comedian?
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Joe Gordon’s letter to President Obama and an international scholars’ letter to PM Yingluck were posted today on PPT. Let’s hope their responses are, too.
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The latest wikileaks cabledump seems to point to the US Embassy strategy of dealing with a case like Joe’s.
See:
http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=07BANGKOK3154&q=%3Dcasc%20%3Druehbk%20%3Dth%20%3Dthailand%20assistance-to-citizens%20embassy-bangkok
In it are a few comments based on the Swiss experience with the Jufer case.
“Swiss officials in Thailand believe their restrained response to the arrest, in spite of their public’s demand for strong action, contributed to the sooner-than-expected release of their citizen. The Swiss experience with Thailand’s lese majeste laws informs a possible USG response should an AmCit be charged with lese majeste in the future.”
“The palace appears quite sensitive to the possibility that lese majeste could be abused by non-palace actors to achieve their own ends. If an AmCit were to be charged with lese majeste, it is likely that a low key approach outside the public eye would stand the best chance of success in getting him or her out of custody and out of Thailand. “–Ambassador BOYCE
I do however disagree. Based on the longstanding US relationship with Thailand, I feel the US response should be in a leading role. Not based on Swiss models. I congradulate Joe in writing President Obama about his case.
I hope we can see Secretary Clinton address the issue of fundamental rights and comdemn the Thai Prosecution of American Citizen Joe Gorden who continues to be held in the Thai prison as a political prisoner.
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Andrew Walker, Seh Fah
You two must both be very pleased that your position on how foreign govts should deal with their nationals charged with LM is so close Boyce’s.
http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2011/09/03/wikileaks-u-s-ambassador-boyce-offers-lese-majeste-advice/
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Seh Fah
I’m sorry but I don’t have time to go into details of how to organise a campaign to release political prisoners nor to excavate the relationships of Western govts with Thailand.
What I would say is there are, quite literally, 1000s of examples, from Nelson Mandela to ASSK, on the kinds of campaigns someone could run.
It’s not my problem if your imagination runs only to “quiet effective diplomacy” on such matters or you’re unable to study other such campaigns.
And, once again, I must raise simple fact that Australia and the US govts have both raised far louder voices when it comes to freeing Burmese national ASSK in Burma than they have for either Joe or Harry – both of whom are their nationals. If you want a model there’s one right there.
What is transparent is that the strategy of “quiet effective diplomacy” (QED) is based on 1) a belief in Thai LM laws being a “special case” 2) a lack of principle 3) strategic issues such as military and economic ties.
This QED strategy is not based at all, in any way shape or form on any evidence of effectivity (and to be honest I don’t really care what Andrew Walker’s “opinion” on effectivity is. Unless, of course, he provides substantive evidence to the contrary, which he can’t because it doesn’t exist. Unless he bases it on your anonymous, evidenceless blog comments).
To claim that QED is effective is utterly spurious. And it is interesting that Harry thanked the Aus media and people but not the govt on his release.
But then you also claim on another thread that you believe the Thai military, despite decades of massacre, coup and unmitigated fascism, are somehow a force for democracy in Thailand.
I guess I don’t need to know anymore about you than that.
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The Bangkok Post has a story today
That ‘CIA prison’
which sheds light not only on the US ‘inability’ to spring ‘AmCit’ Joe Gordon from the clutches of the Royal Thai Elite but also and especially on its ‘tolerance’ of the Royal Thai LM Police carrying out their interrogation and intimidation operations of ‘AmCit’ Anthony Chai on American soil : PAYBACK.
On corrupt regime exercising its ‘prerogatives’ in support of another.
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Oh look – there is something that the Australian Embassy can get riled up about – tourists being ripped-off!! So much for “quiet effective diplomacy”… I guess human rights are of less importance..
http://www.andrew-drummond.com/view-story.php?sid=434
“British and Foreign diplomats in Thailand have asked the authorities on a Thai island to put an end to the extortion and ‘dog pack’ attack on tourists.
In a showdown with the governor of Phuket island diplomatic officials from Britain, Australia, Austria, and Germany, the Netherlands and Sweden, have complained that tourists who complain about being extorted on taxi and tuk-tuk fares, are attacked by packs of up to twenty Thais and savagely beaten.”
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John Francis-Lee
Imagine if 1/10th of the diplomatic pressure that the US govt used when they wanted to get their hands on Viktor Bout was now brought to bear to free Joe Gordon?
This entire, ridiculous notions that “diplomats” know best and that if we let them “quietly” do their (non-transparent, unaccountable) work all will be well vis a vis LM has to be completely debunked.
My view is that in reality, in at least the case of the USA, that govt is actually a significant part of the problem.
Their dubious strategy is straight out Ben Zawacki’s (rumours are flying that AI in London are getting seriously annoyed with the flak Zawacki and his mentor, Donna Guest, seem to draw) pro-elite play book.
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Andrew Spooner #108
According to you, I claimed on another thread that I believe the Thai military, despite decades of massacre, coup and unmitigated fascism, are somehow a force for democracy in Thailand.
Really? Where exactly did I say that? Were you perhaps referring to my comment (Seh Fah #22) that made two separate and quite distinct points:
(1) The first Thai (sorry, Siamese) coup d’etat, back in 1932, was probably a good thing because at least it initiated the transition from absolute monarchy to democracy under a constitutional monarch.
(2) It’s a bit more difficult to say anything particularly positive about any of those that followed.
It’s a bit of a stretch to interpret that comment as evidence that I believe the Thai military, despite decades of massacre, coup and unmitigated fascism, are somehow a force for democracy in Thailand. What did you say about evidenceless blog comments?
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The US State Department is now a very small subsidiary of the US War Department, and that fact can help us all to understand what is happening.
Diplomacy is the weak weapon of War.
The Thais allowed, among other things, the US CIA to torture ‘terrorists’ on Thai soil, part of the US’ “War on Terror” or “Reign of Terror”, depending upon who’s signing your paycheck, and in return the US allowed Thai Operatives to corner, intimidate, and interrogate a United States Citizen in the United States of America.
Citizenship means nothing to the Bush/Obama continuum during its Reign of Terror.
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Andrew #111
Although I agree that the US government should be working harder to bring Joe Gordon back home, I think you overestimate the power/competency of US diplomacy. It did take over 2 and 1/2 years to get Bout out of Thailand and to the US.
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Andrew Spooner #110
I hope you’re not suggesting that British, Australian, Austrian, German, Dutch and Swedish diplomats should ignore extortion and attacks on tourists, and concentrate all of their efforts on LM cases. On the other hand, if their efforts are going to be totally ineffective anyway, it doesn’t really matter what they do, does it?
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Seh Fah
You previously stated – “Thaksin had systematically undermined virtually all of the checks and balances of a democratic system, leaving the army as the last unbalanced check.”
Obviously you fail to understand the concept of “evidence” adequately.
That failure is matched only by your inability to understand democracy.
Let’s get one thing absolutely straight – there is no evidence whatsoever that the Thai Army is any part of any kind of democratic system nor that it ever has been. Because they give you, as you described above, a cute nickname is entirely irrelevant.
You’re also engaging in sophistry – your point is that the Australian Embassy shouldn’t engage/or are unable to engage in anything other than quiet effective diplomacy when it considers the application of the Thai justice system, of which the police are a part, on Australian citizens. Yet, here they are creating a stink about extortion of tourists!
Why not with Joe, Harry etc? Why not make the same noises they do with ASSK? I mean she is not even Australian or American. Your entire argument is so thin, so evidenceless and so immoral it’s amazing you’d even find the nerve to make it in a public forum. But, there again, you are anonymous.
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Andrew Spooner #116
Thank you, Andrew, for your carefully nuanced listing of all my short-comings: my failure to understand evidence or democracy, my tendency to immoral argument, and my lauding the Royal Thai Army as a force for democracy. It’s made my day.
And you deduced all of this from my belief that restrained responses by Swiss and Australian diplomats, in spite of public demands for strong action, led (sorry, let’s make that “contributed in some infinitely small way”) to the early release of Oliver Jufer and Harry Nicolaides (and yes, it may have included pointing out that a public confession and expression of contribution was a pre-requiesite for a royal pardon); my assessment that of all the coups d’etat in Thai modern history, only the first made any contribution to Thai democracy; my description of the Royal Thai Army as a last, unbalanced check in the Thai system of checks and balances (check the dictionary definition of the word “unbalanced”); and perhaps from my explanation of my Thai nickname. (Sorry, that was a response to a query from Ralph Kramden. My apologies. I should have ignored him. But it does make me instantly recognizable to my former staff college classmates.)
I would correct one small point. I think the current diplomatic concern about Phuket is about life-threatening physical asaults on tourists rather than extortion. But if I’m wrong, I’m sure you’ll let me known in your usual nuanced manner.
And so I conclude yet another amazingly thin, evidenceless and immoral comment.
Yours anonymously,
Seh Fah (or Bluey the Staff Officer, for those of you who don’t speak Thai).
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Feh Sah:
Now you listen to me Feh Sah. This time I’ve really got you.
On the one hand you say that you have red hair. On the other hand you say that people call you blue.
Now let’s get one thing absolutely 100% straight. Red is not, never has been, and never will be blue. There is not one skerrick of evidence to the contrary. Hah! Got you!
Just who do you think you are promoting undemocratic and immoral falsehoods. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Rood giddance!
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And meanwhile Joe rots in jail….
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And meanwhile Joe rots in jail…. says Ralph.
So we have our petition from academics to PM Yingluck and Andrew Spooner has called for a campaign.
Today I was sent an email with the words:
“But this movement does more than sign petitions: many of you stood strong in front of the White House risking arrest, and protesters on every continent have picketed outside embassies and consulates. That makes sense, for global warming is the one problem that affects everyone everywhere.”
It came from 350.org and if it is good enough for them to “have picketed outside (USA) embassies and consulates” why not do the same over Joe & 112?
I sent a comment along these lines with some details to NM last week, but it was not approved.
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Andrew Spoonerism #118
Really got me? Not quite! According to the Macquarie dictionary, Bluey is a nickname for a red-headed person.
Perhaps it’s just jealousy at my cute nickname, so here’s one for you: Khun Khamphuan. Sorry, let’s make that Ajarn Khamphuan. And no, it’s in no way disrespectful. Quite the opposite. Ask your Thai friends.
Ralph Kramden #119
Thanks for bringing us back on line. The unfortunate fact is that in Thailand both the powers that were and the powers that be regard the monarchy as a cornerstone of national security and will do whatever it takes to protect it from rational scrutiny. As far as I know, not one Thai MP has expressed any support for changing the LM legislation, which also appears to be a matter of little concern to any other country with the clout to encourage a change in policy.
I sincerely believe that the Swiss and Australian approach when one of their citizens is arrested on LM charges is the only feasible option. The US embassy appears to agree, and I would like to believe that discrete negotiations are under way, but the Joe Gordon case is complicated by the issue of dual nationality and the requirement to diplomats to show some respect for the laws of the sovereign country to which they are accredited. I do applaud the efforts of more principled groups to apply pressure for change.
One more question for both Ajarn Khamphuan and Khun Ralph. If you were arrested by the Thai police for LM, what would you expect your embassy to do for you?
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I’ve got to say I find this obsession with 112 a little tiresome. People act as if there’s no legitimate space for dissent in Thailand which is absolutely not true. With just a little bit of imagination and hard work there’s all kinds of critiques of power that could be made which could threaten the system, and which wouldn’t violate 112. Why don’t critics focus on the military, the Privy Council, the bureaucracy etc… if you can’t attack the centre, then go for the flanks – they’re all horribly exposed and yet no-one seems to ever even attempt to land a blow. The bureacracy is full of minor royals, and exposing some of the rampant corruption of these folk would inevitably reflect on the integrity/credibility of the royal institution itself.
Or what about some lateral thinking – more symbolic action. Why did the Reds (or whoever is now currently opposed to the ‘amaat’) not use recent ‘Mother’s Day’ to make some kind of symbolic protest against she who they think is the source of their problems. Turning ‘Mother’s Day’ into a memorial day for the departed Reds would have been a powerful statement. I guess my point is there are all kids of ways around 112 and all manner of available space for dissent with just a little thought.
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Billyd: By all means be creative & symbolic in your dissent, but don’t you find it a little tiresome that people are still being locked up for LM?
Don’t you find the self censorship, and lack of the ability to call a spade a spade, a little tiresome?
Don’t you find groups like Social Sanction (SS) a little tiresome?
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Seh Fah: “One more question for both Ajarn Khamphuan and Khun Ralph. If you were arrested by the Thai police for LM, what would you expect your embassy to do for you?”
I’d hope that they ignored the kind of advice you give and got loud and aggressive, drawing as much international attention as possible to the case.
billyrd: almost everything you mention has been part of campaigns in recent years. And there has been lots of lateral protest thinking – consider, as one example, Sombat’s activities. The attention to LM is just one element of a very broad and, at times, very innovative campaign by red shirts and others.
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billyd – 112
Why don’t critics focus on the military, the Privy Council, the bureaucracy etc
Last year, a red shirt lady from Korat got jail term for 5 years (or 3 I dont remember the exact number) on lese majeste charge for burning a coffin with a tag “พระองท่าน…………พล อ เปรม ติณสูลานนท์” (roughtly translate “your highest …………… Gen Prem Tilasulanon).
The court somehow interpred that the word พระองค์ท่าน was mean for the king. This is the example where your idea might not work exactly like what you siad. Like I’ve said earlier, you have to logic about the article 112 reversed and I think you have greatly misunderestimate the application of the law.
What I find more rediculous is that you suggest people to go and have some sort of protest on the “mother day”, well guess what, Sombat Bunngamanong of the Red Sunda did, infact, tried to have a talk show on the 5th Dec last year. Guess what happened, he got a death threat and was threaten with 112.
So, let me ask, how on earth should we have a “symbolic” protest when they have 112 around?
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Joe Gordon was a fool to have made links to TKNS and to have criticized the monarchy and then have the audacity to return to Thailand knowing the law. What was he thinking? And no, he shouldn’t be treated like an average US citizen. He’s not one, thus his treatment by the Thai government. And what is “dual nationality” anyway? Thai when it’s convenient? American when it’s convenient? I’m a US citizen and I don’t look at this guy as a full fledged American. Sorry.
Judgement is based on context, and this context is not forgiving for Joe Gordon.
As an American I could move back and write all I want about the King of Thailand and my website would be blocked and I would certainly never attempt to visit Thailand. Common sense.
Lots of naivete on this board.
One thing I’ve seen firsthand here is how ruthless Thais are with their own. Absolutely ruthless. Joe Gordon should have known this.
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Maratjp: you mean you assume Joe has actually done what he is accused of, right? I believe he is (so far) claiming innocence, despite the usual pressure to admit guilt and take reduced sentences.
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Billyd – 122 and Tarrin – 125
The red shirts’ imaginitive, and successful, protest at Privy Councillor and former PM General Surayud’s country house illegally constructed on forest land in Nakhon Ratchasima province a couple of years ago was a classic example of the lateral thinking suggested by billyd.
The protest also highlighted the red shirts’ “double standards” campaign, as a restaurant further down the same hill had been closed down and the owner jailed. No such punishment for the General, of course, but at least the house was demolished, and a point made.
I wouldn’t rule out more such activities by the red shirts if the government drags its feet on issues which they hold dear.
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billyd – 122 and Tarrin – 125
The red shirts’s imaginative, and successful, protest a couple of years ago at Privy Councillor and former Prime Minister General Surayud’s country house, illegally constructed on national forest land in Nakhon Ratchasima province, was a classic example of the lateral thinking suggested by billyd.
The protest also highlighted the red shirt’s “double standards” campaign, as a restaurant located further down the same hill had been closed down and its owner jailed. No such punishment for the general, of course, but at least the house was demolished and a point made.
I would not be surprised at more such activities by the red shirts if the government drags its feet on issues they hold dear.
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As far I can see, there are two questions: What to do when a foreign national is charged with LM, and what to do about the LM legislation.
For foreigners under arrest for LM, the only approach that has ever succeeded in getting them released has been discretely negotiated royal amnesties. And yes, that includes the requirement to admit guilt and express contrition. I lack Ralph Kramden’s courage. If I were arrested, I’d put my faith in that approach.
The LM legislation is a much more difficult issue. Barring an anti-monarchist, pro-republican coup d’etat, which would seem unlikely, the Thai Parliament must either amend or repeal the LM legislation. Under the current government, that appears even less likely than an anti-monarchist, pro-republican coup d’etat. Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm has declared that the legislation should be rigorously applied. The two Red Shirt leaders most vociferous in their demands for LM reform, Surachai Danwathananusorn and Somyot Phruksakasemsuk, are both in gaol and likely to remain there. No Phuea Thai Party MPs, no core leaders of the UDD, not even the main stream Red Shirts, are urging their release. In mid-August the Thai press quoted the UDD acting chairman, a Hanoi-trained former member of the Communist Party of Thailand, Mrs. Thida Thawornset, thus: “Daeng mai ao jao nan mai chai NPCh”, which I would translate as “Those anti-monarchist Reds are not members of the UDD”. Not only is there no sign of any effective and widely supported local pressure for change, there is none from any foreign government, either.
This time around, Andrew, PLEASE don’t accuse me of supporting the LM legislation just because I have expressed the opinion that efforts to change it are a forlorn hope.
Let me also point out the meaning of the word “spoonerism”. According to my Macquarie dictionary (you really should invest in a copy), a spoonerism is a phrase in which the initial or other sounds in words are transposed e.g. “our queer old dean” for “our dear old queen”. Or the Kenny Everett character of 1980s TV fame, Cupid Stunt. By those standards, “rood giddance” hardly qualifies as a spoonerism. Even worse, it’s not even witty.
Goold luck with the PhD. You’re going to need it.
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Tarrin 125
No, my logic is perfectly sound, thank you all the same. 112 is a fact of life just as is the military in Burma. Its the same as people who at the last Burmese elections wanted a change to ASSK and were outraged when this didn’t happen. You have to reckon with reality, whether its pretty, just, fair or whatever. That’s not to say we shouldn’t look for change, but that there’s no point in naive idealism. As I said, there is all kind of space to protest the ‘system’ in Thailand. Is burning a coffin the way forward? Maybe, but its a fairly blunt itstrument. Think of Thongchai’s parable which has been reported on this website last year, the ongoing Facebook lakhoon that A. Walker talks about… all I’m saying is that there are all kinds of imaginative ways of expressing dissent that may be better than what frankly I think is a pointless effort to get rid of 112. Its in no-one’s (with power, that is) interest to get rid of it, so lets find other ways of achieving the same goal – a more just and transparent society that circumvents 112…
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Seh Fah: “For foreigners under arrest for LM, the only approach that has ever succeeded in getting them released has been discretely negotiated royal amnesties.”
Has any other approach ever been tried?
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What are the Reds doing about 112 and the 100+ prisoners?
I asked this question in Chiang Mai and was told they and the government are moving on the issue and there will be a meeting 18:00 on 19/9/2011 behind Wat Pra Sing here. Please go and cheer them on.
For details tune in to their radio station FM 92.5
http://www.fm925cm.ob.tc/webpage1/index.html
(Apologies I will be in China that day)
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Ralph Kramden @127
Yeah, I’m assuming that the charges are legit. If in fact this Joe Gordon did not actually do what he is accused of then he is of course entitled his due process of law.
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billyd – 132
112 is a fact of life just as is the military in Burma.
It sure wasnt fact of like 30 years ago, hell, even 10 years ago there were fewer than 10 lese majeste cases annually, now we are looking at hundreds. If it wasnt fact of life 30 years ago sure it can be undone.
That’s not to say we shouldn’t look for change, but that there’s no point in naive idealism.
This is not even about idealism, this is simply about basic freedom of speech. If a country claimed to be democratic then at very least it should have the most fundamental right for its citizen so democracy can function properly.
Is burning a coffin the way forward? Maybe, but its a fairly blunt itstrument.
and someone got jail for that, how is it “Maybe” works is beyond me.
all I’m saying is that there are all kinds of imaginative ways of expressing dissent that may be better than what frankly I think is a pointless effort to get rid of 112
You seems not to get the point why I even mentioned the “burning coffin” and “Sombat’s talk show”. The thing is, no matter how much “imagination” you’ve got, they will find a way to jail you, dont you know why Da Torpido was sentence behind the close door?.
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….”If in fact this Joe Gordon did not actually do what he is accused of then he is of course entitled his due process of law”
You need to wake up Maratjp….there is no “Rule of Law” in Thailand, no “Impartial Justice System”, no “Rules of Evidence”, no “Due Process of Law”………….
Btw, I’ll be sure to get the word out to those tens of millions of U.S. citizens who are “dual citizens”, that as far as Maratjp is concerned they are not actually U.S. citizens and they are no longer entitled to the rights of a U.S. citizen to go about their business in the U.S. as if they have the rights of a U.S.. citizen. Such as posting links to Yale University Press books on their blogs or, god forbid, doing partial translations of Yale University Press books.
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Maratjp: Your first post @126 revealed your ignorance, your post @134 solidified it. Every accused is entitled to due process, not just the innocent ones.
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Ralph Kramden #132
Apart from Oliver Jufer in 2007 and Harry Nicolaides in 2008/2009, when I was living in Bangkok, I’m not aware of any other cases of Farangs being charged with lese majeste. If anyone has details of any other cases, please share them.
As far as Oliver and Harry were concerned, there was no need to try any approach other than diplomatic negotiation because the desired outcomes were achieved very quickly, given the usual glacial pace of the Thai legal system. How long did it take Chalerm to get his little boy off the murder charge?
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Ricky #133
Now that the most important UDD and Red Shirt leaders have been rewarded with political appointments and have effectively become part of the government, I suspect that their interest in Article 112 and its abuse by the powers that be will dissipate very quickly.
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billyd is calling for imaginative protests but the prosecutors of lese majeste can get pretty imaginative too. Here’s a statement about their methodology from Yanaphol Youngyuen, one of the heroic pursuers of Anthony Chai
“They might use some tactics to conceal their intention. For example, they might send an email forward embedding a massage that…. ‘we can’t stand this person condemning the king…’ but it was actually the distribution of insulting message. That’s one of their various tactics.”
http://blogs.channelnewsasia.com/anasuya-sanyal/2010/08/17/transcript-of-interview-with-yanaphon-youngyuen-deputy-director-general-department-of-special-investigation-dsi/
So you can say something in support of the monarchy and they will read it as meaning the opposite. That’s imaginative.
It’s nice to know that the witch-finder generals at the DSI are also capable of reading through people’s actual words and deeds into their concealed intentions. Mind readers.
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Seh Fah – 139
I don’t think that those red shirt leaders appointed to government positions will be seduced by the attractions of power into losing interest in Article 112 and its abuse, but if they do, it is my firm belief that the UDD will soon make their displeasure known.
For those who have the opportunity, I would suggest a visit to the red shirts’ headquarters in Bangkok’s northern suburbs. This would quickly dispel many of the widespread misconceptions regarding this movement, and reveal its true nature, its resilience and determination. I’m not suggesting they are all angels, infallible or above criticism, but they are here to stay.
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BKK lawyer @137
I’ve touched quite a nerve with you. Your self righteous dismissal of my comments have piqued my interest.
Perhaps I’ve been misunderstood: this Joe Gordon should be considered innocent until his proven guilty. My opinion was based on the assumption that he was guilty. Based on this assumption I don’t understand why you would think my view is “ignorant.”
Perhaps you feel a bit threatened by my candor and simple clarity on the matter, something that perhaps you feel escapes your lawyerly perspective freighted with its pomposity and frivolous allusions to laws no one follows.
Would you mind pointing out exactly what it is you find problematic in my opinion? A lawyer in a nation that has no law. This is interesting.
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Seh Fah: The Chalerm (throwaway) line is not comparable in any sense. I believe you’ll find that the son was on the run and on bail through much of the less than 3 years from the shooting to the trial. As far as I remember, he spent 9 months in jail, and his plea was of innocence throughout.
On other cases of foreigners, I agree that we don’t know much about this. There is Anthony Chai and the infamous case of Frenchman Lech Tomasz Kisielewicz, a businessman. There was a case of a guy in Hua Hin who stated that Sinrindhorn was fat. There has been talk of Cambodians and Burmese held for lese majeste. I am sure that others know or remember more.
The point is that claiming a quiet approach is best is based on no other strategy having been tried (as far as I can recall). So your claims of efficacy of this approach are weak as there is no contrary approach that we can compare with.
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Maratjp – 143
Since BKK lawyer havnt response to your post yet but I felt like I can address some of the points you mad.
My opinion was based on the assumption that he was guilty. Based on this assumption I don’t understand why you would think my view is “ignorant.”
it was your assumption that it is indicated that you are ignorant. If you even care (which you did) every accused is innocent until proven otherwise. When you made assumption that Goe is guilty its already say a lot about your distorted perception to what is “right” or “wrong”.
Although you have the “simple clarity” to the matter, but at least you should get that “simple” right. If you couldnt get the basic right then do we even need to talk about complicated stuff?
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@Maratjp asked:
what is “dual nationality” anyway? Thai when it’s convenient? American when it’s convenient? I’m a US citizen and I don’t look at this guy as a full fledged American. Sorry.
—–
Dual nationality means you obtain the nationality legitimately when the law allows you to do so. Also what is being a full fledged American is about? USA is, largely, a nation of immigrants, and I also assume that you are one of them (unless you are the native Indians/Aborigines whose ancestors have been living in USA before the Whites came, which I doubt it). As you are presumably an immigrant, and Mr Gordon is also an immigrant, what is it that differentiates him from you apart from the fact that you were born there, but he made his way there legitimately and obtained his citizenship in a way which the law allows?
The USA has a right to protect Mr Gordon as a citizen, and they should especially do so in this case. Mr Gordon simply exercises his right to freedom of expression under the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights. He did not kill anyone. He did not steal from anyone. He was deemed to be guilty (well, it is likely that he would be deemed guilty) because of this Thai law which ignores this Conventional Right. A law which has no place in a democratic society and should be abolished ASAP. And Mr Gordon suffers in jail under substandard conditions because of it, despite his blatant illness. This is more of a reason the US should intervene.
Whether he was born in the USA or not is irrelevant. He acquired his citizenship legitimately, and has been living in the US for years. Mr Gordon should be protected by the USA.
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Tarrin,
Fair enough. Yes, this man should have the right to defend himself against allegations as anyone should have. And yes, it is likely that he is a victim of an overzealous Thai government eager to make an example. Evidence should be shown and the Thai government should be held accountable.
Yvonne,
Joe Gordon can live and enjoy his rights in as a US citizen and he has every right to express his opinions. But this doesn’t mean he can criticize the King of Thailand and then expect to visit Thailand and not be charged with LM. (Assuming he’s guilty!)
We won’t be seeing Paul Handley in this part of the world anytime soon.
He will be judged, and should be judged, not as a US citizen, but as a dual citizen with all that this not only guarantees legally, but implies culturally.
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Robin Grant #141
I sincerely hope that you are right and I am wrong, but can you identify any currently serving Thai MPs who are committed to LM reform? I can’t, but if you or anyone else can, I would love to be corrected.
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Maratjp, #146:
“But this doesn’t mean he can criticize the King of Thailand and then expect to visit Thailand and not be charged with LM.”
=========================================
But he didn’t “criticize” the King of Thailand. While residing int he U.S., he posted a link on a blog to a Yale University Press book which if you take the trouble to read it, is a reasonably accurate history of Thai politics for the last 50 years or so and portrays the King as an intelligent, involved and engaged person.
Not to speak of the fact that the King himself announced some years ago that he is not above “criticism”.
The so-called LM “offense” of the book in question is simply that it portrays the King as being involved and engaged in the ongoing affairs of Thailand, rather than being “removed” and “not involved”
It might be a better policy for the LM mullahs in the Thai government to refuse entry to U.S. citizens it feels have committed an LM offense rather than allow them to enter Thailand solely for the purpose of arresting them, throwing them in multi-person prison cells with a toilet hole in the corner, refusing them bail for months or years before a “kangaroo-court” trial and parading them around in leg irons before the world’s media.
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Maratjp -142
I don’t understand how you can find him guilty if the trail was a closed one. Perhaps you are privy to the evidence? Have you, inside information on the case? If not, then perhaps you misunderstood the meaning of ‘innocent until proven guilty’?
There’s a phrase in Thai, ‘ทองแท้ย่อมไม่กลัวไฟ’ = ‘Genuine Gold does not fear fire’. And certainly if the gold is real, why does it not stand up to scrutiny? Some one has been selling us fool’s gold for years obviously!
A man is judged not by his words, but by his actions. I’ll leave it at that.
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thomas hoy -140, that’s ‘Hogging the loyalty to the crown’ Aka ‘No one is more truly loyal than us’, which translate that every other group must be disloyal.
Seeing as how small their group is, they better change their tactics, if they don’t want this to go to the Himalayas. How can a house stand upright, if the foundation is corroded by termites?
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Maratjp -146, If you followed the case, you would know that his alleged ‘insult’ was conducted on US soil. Which there is no law on the subject = he hasn’t done anything wrong.
Now unless Thailand claims judicial authority over US territory, they don’t have a case. On the other hand, if Joe were to visit Thailand, and repeat his crime here, where there IS a law hanging over him. Then they can trial him, US citizen or not.
But seriously, even the Buddha is not exempt from criticism. Can we still call this country, a Buddhist nation?
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Seh Fah – 147
No, I cannot name any MP’s who are publicly committed to to the reform of the LM law, but in the current febrile atmosphere that’s to be expected. However, it is quite a different matter to suggest that those red shirts appointed to government positions will lose interest in Article 112 and its abuse.
This remains an important issue for the red shirt movement, but they know what they are up against, so don’t expect dramatic developments any time soon.
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Days ago there was discussion here about Harry N from Australia with assertions about the role the Australian Embassy played in his release from prison.
I wrote to my MP in Australia asking him to ask some questions of the Foreign Minister in parliament to clarify this matter.
I have now received a response to say that a question on notice is being prepared.
As I am about to travel for the next 2 weeks may I ask that Andrew Walker in Canberra report on this matter to readers.
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Yvonne,
Yes, I’m aware that he posted a link to TKNS and in view of the Thai government/elite/monarchists, this is criticism of the King. In the eyes of the Thai government/elite/monarchists, rest assured, this book is most likely not considered “a reasonably accurate history of Thai politics of the last fifty years.” Handley gets into very sensitive family issues and severely criticizes this “high institution” in Thailand. It’s true that his critique includes positive aspects, but he takes on “the high institution” like no other.
“Not to speak of the fact that the King himself announced some years ago that he is not above ‘criticism’.”
You sound like you don’t live in Thailand at this point. Yvonne, if you really believe this go and set up your table with a bullhorn at the Chulalongkorn equestrian statue and share your criticisms of the King publicly.
You talk of how things should be. I talk about the way things are and how this Joe Gordon is likely to be viewed. Your naivete is refreshing though.
leeyiankun,
I never “found him guilty.” When I first posted about him I wrote if he were guilty.
Joe Gordon (Lerpong Wichaikhammat) is a dual citizen who allegedly posted a link to the TKNS while he was in the US. Leeyiankun, your views on this are very naive. Talking about “law” in this case is a waste of time. I would never post a link to TKNS on US soil and expect to ever visit Thailand knowing how strict their LM law is. They use this “threat to national security” argument when going after people so you’re heading for some serious problems if you dare to play around with them.
Good luck Dr. Somsak Jeamteerasakul in your reform of LM…
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Ricky #153
Well done, Ricky! I expect the Foreign Minister will say that the Australian Embassy did indeed play a part in Harry’s release from prison. I think I can also predict Ajarn Khamphuan’s response: “Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he?”
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The following note was sent from the office of Australian Senator Bob Brown to me on 28th September:
“Thank you for your email suggesting questions on notice about Thailand’s Lese Majeste laws. Questions from Senator Brown based on your suggestions have been lodged today. The responsible minister has 30 days in which to answer the questions and when he does we will send them on to you.”
I thank Senator Brown, his colleague Mr Adam Bandt MP and their staff for their assistance in this matter.
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UPDATE:
Joe Gordon’s lawyer, khun Anon Nampha, just told me that his latest attempt to get bail for Joe (the sixth or seventh time, if I remember correctly), was rejected by the Court this afternoon.
I understand that this is the last time Joe and his lawyer are asking for bail, as it’s obvious that there is no use.
I personally suspect that Joe may have no other choice but to take the degrading “option” of “confessing” and then to ask for royal pardon. Otherwise, he could be in jail probably up to a year during his trial with the likelihood of conviction and long-term jail sentence.
Of course, even if he does “confess”, there’s no absolute guarantee of pardon. But in his case, as an American (perhaps now with some “help” from the embassy?), he at least has a better chance of “early” freedom, than continuing with the trial.
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Since Joe Gordon’s “crime” is posting a link to a Yale University Press book, a book which to this day is still available from Yale University Press, it seems to me that in the interest of consistency and thoroughness, all graduates of Yale University residing in Thailand should be arrested and charged by association with defaming the monarchy.
And since Google search engine continiues to provide 100,000+ links to the book in question, all person residing in Thailand who use and support Google should also be arrested and charged.
Only then will Thailand and the universally revered Thai monarchy be safe.
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Remember the would be Prime Minister Mr. Ruler Purachai who failed to get the job but did gain a seat in parliament?
He calims to be a strong believer in justice and abiding by the law. What ever one thinks of the Lese Majeste law the process of trial for those accused with a long wait before appearing in court, a secret trial and no hope of bail is patently unjust.
Perhaps Mr Purachai MP can be prevailed upon to raise this matter in parliament?
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sad UPDATE:
When I wrote the above update #157, I actually already knew that Joe and his lawyer had decided to take the “confession” option after the latest attempt to secure bail was rejected by the Court, but I wanted to wait until it’s absolutely certain.
Now I can report that, on Friday afternoon (7 October), Joe’s lawyer has filed application with the Court changing Joe’s plea from “not guilty” to “guilty”.
So, the upcoming, scheduled trial tomorrow, Monday 10 October at 9.00 am, will turn into a sentencing hearing.
It is expected that Joe will get around 3 to 5 years jail term (reduced from 6 to 10 for confession).
I hope that the US embassy and anyone who can, would now help Joe in his quest for pardon.
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P.S. I should add that, altogether, Joe had applied for bail eight times; all were rejected.
I also heard – but this is still a bit uncertain – that a number of Thais currently in jail on LM charge, in various stages of their cases (trial in lower courts, appeals, etc) have been seriously considering this option as well, since it now becomes obvious that, the newly installed “pro-democracy” government and its “pro-democracy” UDD ally, would not try to intervene, even just to secure their temporary release on bail. (The UDD, of course, had secured bail for several of their own top leaders and activists who are being charged with LM.)
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It is ridiculous really that the allege his act of “providing the link to TKNS” as a threat to national security.
This is because the established legal principle is clear that matters of “national security” will remain so only if it is not available in the public domain. If you can prove that the information is available in the public domain, then the revelation of such information is not a threat to national security. Or if that is what has been alleged, proving that the information is available in public domain will successfully challenge the allegation.
It seems to me that in LM cases, all the legal principles seem to go away. It is ridiculous enough that the Court deems even the “truth” to be statement of defamation to the Monarchy, whereas the principle of defamation is clear that “the truth will be the complete defence to all defamation allegations”. Now they are alleging that sharing the information which is widely available is a threat to national security!
Which other legal principles would be the next which will be ignored and/or distorted by the Thai Courts?
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The comment by Somsak # 161 :
“the newly installed “pro-democracy” government and its “pro-democracy” UDD ally, would not try to intervene, even just to secure their temporary release on bail. ” shows there is a rare opportunity to enhance the King’s prestige vs Thaksin’s.
Sadly the adoption of “double standards” by the government and UDD is clear for all to see. The King has in past speeches expressed his discomfort at having to deal with Lese Majeste cases and in one speech, when Thaksin was PM, made references to “double standards” which was interpreted by many as a criticism of the PM.
Should the King use his birthday speech this year to express sorrow at the suffering caused by the Lese Majeste and demand repeal of the law and freeing of all those jailed because of it, this act of kindness will be seen for what it is and genuine accolades will flow from around the World.
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UPDATE:
The judges on Joe Gordon’s trial has postponed the sentencing until early next month, citing the need to “further background check” on the accused. Joe’s lawyer is somewhat optimistic, saying when such thing happens, it could mean a “lighter” sentence than would normally be, even possibly a suspended one. I really hope he’s right. It could be that the “American factor” (Joe being a US citizen, plus the crime allegedly committed happened on US soils) could now be of the Judges’ consideration. I hope the Embassy would do what it can to “signal” to Thai authorities that sentencing an American for “speech crime” committed on American soils doesn’t look good, etc.
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The new sentencing date for Joe Gordon is 9 November 2011. For details, see this Prachatai post:
http://prachatai.com/journal/2011/10/37320
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presume the judges now have to get advice from Prem on the political tactic
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Wonder what NM’s knowledgeable readers think of this claim (http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2011/10/10/joe-gordon-forced-to-plead-guilty/) that the treatment of Joe Gordon and others on lese majeste could constitute torture?
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Ralf Kramden 167
It’s my personal opinion that the les-majeste law constitutes mental torture of the inhabitants of Thailand in that it forbids freedom or expression of thoughts deemed contrary to “national security” where national security=the status quo.
There can be no doubt that the last 10 years has seen a growth of political and social consciousness in the Thai people and a desire for open discussion and debate. “les-majestable” discussions take place every minute of the day up and down the country, in the market place, the home, the army base, the karaoke shop, government house, birthdays, weddings, funerals and anywhere unidentified affiliations cannot overhear and all must deny it or plead guilty when accused through fear of what will happen to themselves or their dependents.
This law is an obscenity which can only bring opprobrium upon those it is claimed to protect.
Where is the grace and majesty in such a law?
What nation could take pride in such a law?
I have no doubt this is unpleasant news for conservative sectors of society who take cold comfort in skeet-shooting the messenger whenever one is brave enough to pop his or her head up.
We should all wish for a more graceful, more magnanimous, more altruistic, more far seeing acceptance of the inevitable but unfortunately t’was ever thus in the history of the world.
The “Red-Shirt Nemesis” is the creation of the very people who wish it’s destruction, as Khun Thida pointed out in an interview with Voranai Vajanika recently.
So those who are swept along in the current of history like myself can only wonder at the hubris of man and the tragedy of lost opportunities. I have never understood the difficulty that some factions of Thai society have with the buddhist teaching of impermanence. They could learn a lesson from those people sitting patiently smiling and waving from the corrugated roofs of their ramshackle flooded homes this week.
“All these moments shall pass, like tears in the rain” – as my perceptive friend, Roy Batty would say
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Anyone shed any light on this report: The Bennington Vale Evening Transcript, 12 October 2011 (http://www.benningtonvalepress.com/2011/10/us-citizen-pleads-guilty-to-insulting.html). Is it a mish-mash of stories on Joe Gordon and Anthony Chai, a hoax or something else?
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http://www.prachatai3.info/journal/2011/10/37410
For those who can read Thai, this is a report on 2 little known cases of LM, one a 60 year-old Singaporean national who was already convicted and sentenced to 10-year imprisonment; he was caught and handed over to police by the UDD guards during one of their rallies in early 2009. Another is the case of a 40 year-old computer programmer who was arrested last month for allegedly posting on fb.
Plus, at the end of the report, there’s a very interesting and worrying list of LM cases – six or seven altogether – that Surachai Sae Dan of Daeng Sayam group is now facing. Given that there no prospect of bail or amnesty, and that these six or seven cases are at different stages, from the police (DSI) to the court, Surachai is facing the real prospect that he could be dying in jail. He’s 68 and even if one case is finished in one court, others cases could be followed in other courts.
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If Sulak Sivaraksa & The Toronto Star are to be believed, all it takes is a whisper to stop all this nonsense.
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Regarding Somsak’s observtion that “Surachai Sae Dan of Daeng Sayam .. is facing the real prospect that he could be dying in jail. ” ; does anybody have news about the old printer jailed for forging royal papers years ago?
The late Tongbai Thongpao, who represented the man, wrote a sad cloumn in The Bangkok Post about the sole member of a conspircy to go to jail, all the others having enough money to avoid suffering the same fate. Without a royal pardon it appeared he would die in jail.
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On the eve of Hilary Clinton’s visit, I wish to implore the good Secretary of State to speak out against the continued imprisonment of American Joe Gordon, demand transparency in all current court cases involving Lese Majeste, call for an end to in camera procedings, call for an end to the draconian punishments exacted for perceived infractions of lese majeste, get Thaialnd to identify the exact number of people held on this charge and their dates of arrest and current locations, and engage the Thai authorities in obtaining the release of Citizen Joe Gordon.
It is time for a shout of Tear Down that Law just like Reagan shoted to the Russians to tear down a wall.
Shame on Thailand, Shame on the Government of the US, and shame on Ms. Clinton if she can’t provide the fundamental leadership that America shold provide in a free world.
Free JOE GORDON!!!
AND all other Political Prisones in Thailand’s Gulags.
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The American Ambassador to Thailand, Kristie A. Kenney tweeted this on her website today:
“Done! Christmas decs up, take-home office work finished, organized for work tomorrow. Now it’s GLEE time! ”
Now I am glad she feels gleeful, but perhaps, as Joe Gordon now imprisoned for six months under Thailand’s draconian Lese Majeste law, she should begin some less quite diplomacy to get Joe out and back to the United States, and perhaps she can join actually advocate some of the Freedoms that Americans so cherish….. like the freedom of speech…….
Free Joe Gordon!
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Thanks for that American Citizen. What is she thinking when she tweets? The sorority-like tweeting certainly gives the impression that U.S. citizen Joe Gordon can rot in jail while she celebrates Thanksgiving and Christmas in her U.S. taxpayer-funded colonial bungalow with her elite buddies. And still, in its Disneyland fantasy of the fairy kingdom… er… Thailand, the U.S. State Department insists there are no political prisoners in Thailand. Maybe the fairies are at the end of the Embassy garden?
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[oops - other comment has wrong link - please delete and use this one - apologies]
http://bit.ly/jHBokk
Here’s my blog post from a few months back taking a look at Kristie Kenney.
“Chicken on a stick or imprisoned US citizen Joe Gordon? US Ambassador Kenney’s difficult decision”
You’ll find links to plenty of her most vacuous tweets, including the one she made after Joe’s arrest and comment from former State Dept colleagues on her abilities.
No wonder Joe had to plead guilty.
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Joe Gordon went to court today. And as is par for Thai ‘justice’ the reading was Delayed.
The American Embassy Official Expressed Optimism (he is not in jail!!) and several months ago another embassy offical said the Embassy as ‘disappointed’.
Listen American Officals the corrent word is outraged. And failure to recognize this is also an outrage!
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As the saying goes “Justice delayed is justice denied”
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Joe Gordon is supposed to have his verdict read today.
Will the US State Department have comments on it?
Will Sec. Clinton?
Will President Obama?
What about the good Senators from Colorado, Bennett and Udall? Will they express outrage?
Will they condemn the injustice that occurs in Thailand under Article 112 and the Computer Crimes Law?
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This spate of LM convictions could lead to an interesting turn of events. Suppose someone established a Facebook group called “Organization to abolish the Thai Monarchy” and while vacationing in the USA or any other county which can offer asylum for political beliefs, they Friend it and Like it, and even post a political statement which might lead to trouble with the LM prosecutors. They could post wiki leaks.
They could then file for asylum and get the right to live in the USA.
The convictions and the harsh sentences give one a strong case that they are subject to persecution.
Just sayin’
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Well he got 2.5 years.
Another sad day for freedom.
Not as tragic as Uncle SMS but still a sad day.
Let this be a loud and clear message that any Westerner considering coming to Thailand for cheap medical care to be warned….
Has he ever clicked like on a human rights page?
Will he be arrested at the Airport?
But on another issue, don’t all the injustices that developed countries see occurring in Thailand from Thaksin’s signature on his wife’s property purchase, or his long ago asset concealment case, to the debacle on the Munich Tarmac; the numerous academics arrested, jailed, or in exile; the assassination of an outside auditor to a Sugar Company or the dropped cases of politicians cum godfathers, then throw in the occasional scandal like the Bangkok Bank of Commerce, add a few raunchy references to Patpong, and snipers being used for crowd control; and you begin to see that the Thailand of today far from an idealic beach paradise governed by rule of law.
Throw in a diamond scandal and a few dead diplomats……………..
and the occasional coup with ribbon clad tanks……. a few cluster-bombs. and border wars……….. southern insurgents…………………………well you get the drift.
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@Sidney
Not sure about the law in the USA, but in some countries, the law regarding asylum had been amended that you cannot do anything to worsen your situation once you have applied for asylum. The evidence to determine whether or not the risk of persecution is serious enough that asylum should be granted is at the day one makes an application.
So don’t think for a moment that you can use asylum as an easy way to get residency in the USA or any developed countries. If you have to escape Thailand immediately to the US because there is evidence that you commit LM, then you seek asylum right at the airport upon your arrival in the US, you will be fine. However, if you have never committed LM before in Thailand, then you arrive in US and apply for one. Then for the fear that you won’t be granted asylum, you start committing LM after you made the application, then bad luck for you. They won’t consider those evidences as relevant and they will send you back, which of course, you’ll be jailed when you got sent back :p
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So Today a group of ultra-rightist Thai Royalists protested at the United States Embassy. Great. Express yourself.
My questions are in regards to the insults and threats that occurred on the U S Embassy Facebook page.
Do you expect the same treatment by the Thai Judicial System that was melted out to Joe Gordon and Uncle SMS?
Now granted Joe committed his alleged infraction against Thai Law while in the United States where he resided and is a citizen. Your offense according to Thai Law is insulting The American Ambassador and the obvious threat implied by showing her bloodied and decapitated body on the Embassy Facebook page. A result your groups claims because of the US State Department Criticism and her personal tweets expressing the view that the United States believes in freedom of speech and its disappointment over the sentence handed to Joe Gordon.
Joe by the way was utilizing his First Amendment Rights in American for allegedly commenting and translating portions of the book The King Never Smiles. He was not breaking local law where he lived. Unlike several members of your group that have broken local Thai laws– to wit the Computer Crimes Law (which admittedly should be used to go after things like pyramid schemes, ponzi schemes, financial fruad, etc) but in topsy turvy Thailand are used against political opponents instead and Section 134 of the Criminal Code which deals with insults against accredited foreign representatives of which the US Ambassador is one.
Are you depending on Facebook and Twitter to not divulge the information to the Thai Government police authorities about the infractions? The same Facebook that you frequently want to shut down or block and censor?
Do you expect the US Embassy staff to act sensibly and just ignore and delete the expressions of your overzealous members or will they act like the Staff of the former Democrat PM Abhisit and copy, analyze, and trace each infraction and find the isp, the headings,the computer and the owners and users of said computers and prosecute and jail them unless they can prove that they couldn’t have done in as occured in the Uncle SMS case.
Will members be permitted bail or not?
Will the courts be in camera?
Will the honorable MP in charge of the MoI, seek to find and charge these members those charged with LM?
I wonder.
On another note, I wish to challenge my Senators from Colorado (and Joe’s too), Mr Udall and Mr Bennett, to come to Thailand and visit U S citizen prisoner Joe Gordon. Perhaps they could also visit some of the others touched by Article 112. Perhaps they can talk with the good ambassador and express support for our State Departments goal to end internet censorship and encourage Thailand to reform Article 112 in line with other modern constitutional monarchies as has the European Union.
And finally again.
Thailand,
Free Joe Gordon.
Free Uncle SMS.
Freedom is not freedom if it applies to only one half of the population.
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Since Mr Gordon was in Colorado at the time of the acts which ultimately caused him to be incarcerated in Thailand, acts which everyone in America would agree are free and leagal based on the First Amendment of the US Constitution, I wonder if an action can be brought against the Thai Government for false imprisonment in US civil court located in that jurisdiction?
It could be an interesting civil case. Damages imense. A US jury, seeing pictures of him shakled, denied bail, etc. What would the jury think as just compensation?
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Technology is changing the world we live and ultimately it’s going to change laws, especially international law. Gordon wrote/linked to a book that is obviously considered a tactical nuclear bomb aimed at the King of Thailand, and thus a threat not only to him, but the state, the nation of Thailand. In the eyes of the Thai government this book is a threat to national security and so laws can be thrown out the window because of self defense. So it doesn’t matter where someone has written anything or linked to anything because it was read in Thailand. Anwar al-Awlaki was eliminated regardless of the laws where he was living because of what he was saying on the internet and in person against the US. Bin Laden was eliminated regardless of the laws of national sovereignty in killing him. Although I don’t think we can equate Joe Gordon with Bin Laden and al-Awlaki, the Thai government will look at anyone, especially Thais, or dual citizens, who dare to criticize this high institution regardless of where it was done, in this light.
I wonder where international law is going with all of this. Where is the line between criticism and free speech and acts of terrorism?
And for all of you PAD/ultra royalists/Democrats/government censors out there reading this: You deserve all of this bathroom graffiti ugliness written on web boards on the internet because you are so arrogant not to allow the Thai people to openly and respectfully discuss the most political institution in their lives. Your arrogance is destroying the very institution you say you love.
The Thai people will not be silenced. Thailand belongs to its people, not to a clique.
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Great idea Advocate, but could it be done? Are there precedents?
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Seems that the thinking of Maratjp on the none hand and Advocate & Ralph on the other are going in opposite directions.
After the absence of any outcry at the way Obama, Clinton & co watched a live transmission of the assassination that they had clearly ordered of the untried Osama bin Laden, and the failure of any state to lay charges against the USA for the illegal imprisonment of their nationals at Guantanamo it is hard not to be as pessimistic as Maratjp.
While it is understandable that US citizens in Thailand are furious a the weak support given Joe Gordon by the State Dapartment, it is hard to see how they could have done more without their hypocrisy being exposed.
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First of all Ricky, OBL got what he deserved. Kudos to Obama for the Chicago move of making him sleep with the fishees. I think Obama really did want to close Guantanamo, but political realities made it impossible or too costly, so he caved.
But if the USA really wanted Gordon out, they could have gotten that one way or the other. It easily could have been engineered in a way where everyone gets something, and nobody loses face. Even if the Thais didn’t want to do that, there surely was enough leverage by administering brush-back pitches and publicly embarrass select members of the Thai elite. But if you outsource torture to Thailand, it is a dangerous game. So instead the USA is a pathetic enabler. Did you see Obama ask Iran to release the drone, but not ask Thailand to release Gordon. How lame is that. How lame is that.
Unfortunately, Gordon was never going to capture the imagination of the US mainstream media. If they had, the US media could have made it difficult on the US government. The charming ambassador to Thailand provides an inexhaustible supply of material. If she was trashed enough to be forced out that would weigh in the minds of policy makers. They could have nightly trashed Thailand. Thais have already been huffy about the minimal criticism they received from the US and UN, this would have been on a wider plane. We all know there are plenty of salacious pictures that could have gotten wider exposure. There are Occupy protesters out looking for things to protest. The internet community could have applied the Rick Santorum treatment. How about a Southpark episode?
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Regarding relevant sections of US Code:
Normally the
The Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act of 1976 would normally preclude the ability of someone from suing a sovereign state in United States Court except under certain conditions.
However
Section 1605(a)(2) of the FSIA provides that a foreign sovereign and its agencies and instrumentalities:
shall not be immune from the jurisdiction of the courts of the United States or of the States in any case … in which the action is based … upon an act outside the territory of the United States in connection with a commercial activity of the foreign sovereign elsewhere and that act causes a direct effect in the United States.
Furthermore,
Not surprisingly, there is no sovereign immunity in a case “in which the foreign state has waived its immunity either explicitly or by implication,” 28 U.S.C. § 1605(a)(1)
It could be argued that the amici argue that the Thailand has impliedly waived sovereign immunity under the FSIA by violating jus cogens norms of the law of nations. “A foreign state that violates these fundamental requirements of a civilized world thereby waives its right to be treated as a sovereign.”
A jus cogens norm is a principle of international law that is “accepted by the international community of States as a whole as a norm from which no derogation is permitted….” Committee of U.S. Citizens in Nicaragua v. Reagan, 859 F.2d 929, 940 (D.C.Cir.1988), quoting Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, May 23, 1969, art. 53, U.N.Doc. A/Conf. 39/27, 8 I.L.M. 679. Such peremptory norms are “nonderogable and enjoy the highest status within international law,” Committee of U.S. Citizens in Nicaragua, 859 F.2d at 940; they “prevail over and invalidate international agreements and other rules of international law in conflict with them,” and they are “subject to modification only by a subsequent norm of international law having the same character.” Restatement, supra, § 102 comment k.
According to one authority, a state violates jus cogens, as currently defined, if it:
practices, encourages, or condones (a) genocide, (b) slavery or slave trade, (c) the murder or causing the disappearance of individuals, (d) torture or other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment, (e) prolonged arbitrary detention, (f) systematic racial discrimination, or (g) a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights.
TITLE 28 > PART IV > CHAPTER 97 > § 1605
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§ 1605. GENERAL EXCEPTIONS TO THE JURISDICTIONAL IMMUNITY OF A FOREIGN STATE
(a) A foreign state shall not be immune from the jurisdiction of courts of the United States or of the States in any case—
(2) in which the action is based upon a commercial activity carried on in the United States by the foreign state; or upon an act performed in the United States in connection with a commercial activity of the foreign state elsewhere; or upon an act outside the territory of the United States in connection with a commercial activity of the foreign state elsewhere and that act causes a direct effect in the United States;
5) not otherwise encompassed in paragraph (2) above, in which money damages are sought against a foreign state for personal injury or death, or damage to or loss of property, occurring in the United States and caused by the tortious act or omission of that foreign state or of any official or employee of that foreign state while acting within the scope of his office or employment; except this paragraph shall not apply to—
(B) any claim arising out of malicious prosecution, abuse of process, libel, slander, misrepresentation, deceit, or interference with contract rights.
So the relevent facts would be where was the tort committed?
Does the action of the foreign sovereign have a direct effect in the United States?
Does the law that he was prosecuted under conform to the norms of international law?
Was his prosecution malicious? Was it an abuse of power?
Can a Thai law restricting an American’s First Amendment rights of Free Speech be adjudicated in a United States Court?
Is Thailands’s lese majeste law is an international norm?
Will a Colorado jury be amused by Thailand’s arguments.
Could a judgement from a Colorado jury be enforced?
Is the shackling of prisoners, denial of bail, locked in prison cells with both sentenced and pretrial inmates, and group cells of 24 or 48 meters sq with 25+ prisoners an accepted international norm?
I wonder?
Will a court room in the United States be a good place to answer those questions?
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Does the censorship work?
A google search with “Joe Gordon” and “Thai” results in 321,000 hits.
“Uncle Sms” and “thailand” gets 669,000 hits.
“Reform lese majeste” gets 1,760,000 hits.
It doesn’t seem to be working.
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Let’s not forget that Gordon is also a duel citizen. In the eyes of the Thai authorities he is simply a Thai man who has blasphemed the Father of the nation, wrote in Thai linking to a Thai version of the Satanic Verses, and should be drawn and quartered and to hell with international norms. Gordon has had his “direct effect” indeed.
In the context of the US’s SE Asian realpolitik Joe Gordon is simply not very important as the US is now preoccupied with containing China. It’s relationship with Thailand is an old one and an important one in the region and this is paramount. Marines in Australia, US Naval ships now docking in Singapore, Burma and Vietnam looking to the US as a counterweight to China—this is what Hillary is looking at in her biggest meetings.
Legally, however, as Advocate has shared with us, his case is a genie out of a bottle in this world on instantaneous, electronic, transnational communication.
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Advocate presents a great case for action. Will Joe want to do it and will there be a lawyer in Colorado willing to take it on? I truly hope so.
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Earlier I sought information from the Australian Parliament about the Harry Nicholiades case. The following response was provided to me on 19 January:
_______________________________________________
SENATE
Australians arrested in Thailand
(Question No. 1264)
Senator Bob Brown asked the Minister representing the Minister for Foreign Affairs, upon notice on 28 September 2011:
In relation to Australians arrested in Thailand on charges of lese-majeste:
(1) Do Australian authorities advise a guilty plea, if so can the reasoning for this be provided.
(2) Have Australian authorities discussed concerns with their Thai counterparts about the court processes and bail applications for foreigners charged with this offense.
(3) Have Australian authorities discussed their opposition to the freedom of speech restrictions this law places on Thailand’s citizens and visitors.
Senator Conroy – the following answer has been provided by the Minister of Foreign Affairs to the Honorable Senator’s questions.
(1) No
(2) No
(3) The Australian Embassy in Bangkok discusses human rights issues, including in relation to freedom of speech with a range of interlocutors in Thailand, including senior government figures and officials.
Australia also delivered a statement to the United Nations Human Rights Council (HRC) on 5 October 2011 as part of the HRC’s review of the human rights situation in Thailand.
The Australian statement, in relevant part, suggested ‘that the committee established to provide advice on the conduct of lese majeste cases under Article 112 of Thailand’s Criminal Code, as part of deliberations, take account of Thailand’s international treaty obligations to protect freedom of expression’.
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To day I read in the Irrawaddy that Senator “McCain said that they did not discuss the recent jailing of U.S. citizen Joe Gordon with Thai Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra during their Friday meeting. “The State Department and the embassy here say they have raised it at the highest level,” he said.
So I am glad that we have US Senators who at least recognize that Joe Gordon rots in Thai jail for exercising his First Amendment Rights in the United States.
However Joe has now been incarcerated far longer that other Foreigners incarcerated under the draconian measure, Article 112.
The Businessman on the the Thai airlines flight served a few weeks in Jail.
The Australian and the Swiss man both did about the same amount of time proir to guilty pleas than Mr. Gordon. However both were released a few weeks after those guilty pleas. Niccolades Jailed in about 5 months pretrail and about 5 weeks post trail. The jail terms imposed on the Australian, Swiss, and American were 2, 10. and 2.5 years respectively.
Joe Gordon’s incarceration for free speech now enters its ninth month. His sentence was eight weeks ago.
So It is time for Americans, including myself to start lobbying our American politicians. Joe’s continued incarceration should be discussed on the floor of the US Senate. Measures should be taken to start applying sanctions against the Goverment of Thailand for its continued intransegence and lack of respect for American Soveregnity.
Measured steps include:
1. State Department Declaring that Thailand has Political Prisoners.
2. Call the Thai Ambassador in for discussion.
3. Re-evaluate America’s involvement with what is increasingly becomming a not-free country.
This could include halting Naval R&R Visits, annual Cobra Gold exercises. provision of spare parts, cease joint training in the US and in Thailand of Police, Narcotics, and Military cooperation. Downsizing the US role in Utapao, Udorn, and Korat. Reducing the size of the US embassy staff Bangkok.
It is ironic that as Burma Opens, Thailand closes. Perhaps it is time for the US to make an exit.
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Perhaps it is time for a Thai charged with Lese Majeste to walk into the American Embassy and Request Political Asylum to bring this issue to a head.
It might be interesting.
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So do we take the Aust Govt’s Ministery of Foreign Affairs at its word and agree that it did nothing at all for Harry Nicolaides except for the normal consular stuff?
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“Perhaps it is time for a Thai charged with Lese Majeste to walk into the American Embassy and Request Political Asylum to bring this issue to a head.”
Exactly. or they could do it in the USA. All they need is a Faccebook ‘like’. If they do it en masse, the amount of uncomfort they would bring to the US government would be a think of beauty.
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Today, Joe Gordon begins his the third month since Mr. Gordon was sentenced. If some backroom deal to be released by pleading guilty was made. It has apparently been reniged upon.
As an American, I want to know what my State Department, its ambassadors, its embassy staff are doing pro-activley to get Mr. Gordon safely back to the United States.
We get daily reports of NGO members in Egypt. Why not daily condemnations from the US State Department regarding the use of Article 112 against Americans who exercise their freedom of speech in American?
Why hasn’t more pressure been applied to end this fiasco? Why is Cobra Gold still planned for Thailand? Why do we press sanctions against some countries with Human Rights Abuses but allow Thailand to get a ‘Free Pass’?
As a group the State Department is failing American Interests by ignoring the plight of Mr. Gordon.
Shame on Thailand.
Shame on US State Department.
Shame on Congress for not passing legislation not holding hearings on this issue matter.
Shame on the US Department of Defense for not taking a more proactive position promoting human rights.
Shame on Thais for allowing the misuse of Thai Laws to net normal citizens for relatively inocculous trasgressions and allow major proven transgressions to go unpunished among its wealthy and connected classes.
Thailand is rapidly becoming the Zimbabwe of Asia.
Free Joe Gordon.
End the madness.
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Dear American Citizen
Good on you for keeping up the pressure over Joe Gordon on the net.
I suggest do the same on the ground.
This means following US diplomatic personnel to their public engagements in Thailand and asking them the questions in full view of an audience and the press.
This is not suggesting anything illegal or aggressive , but rather asserting your rights as Americans.
For example here in Chiang Mai the newly arrived US Consul General, who has just been reported in a local English language newspaper as having taken the post, and as a front page news story, will be invited to be present with local dignitaries at public events.
So the many Americans who live in Chiang Mai can go and ask him in public to answer your questions.
All the better if the Governor is present, as the present incumbent of the post is reported as having been the informant in a case which sent a person working for an internet service to jail.
I am sure Americans in Bangkok can similarly exercise their right of free speech without fear of the draconian laws which sent Joe, A-Gong, Da Torpedo etc etc to prison.
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Ricky with all due respect, surly you jest. How can an foreigner in Thailand expect the univeral human right or freedom of speech if Thais in Thailand are denied it.
Perhaps you are a believer in some sort of American Exceptionalism akin to that of an upper caste Thai who thinks his Mercedes traveling at high speed in the oncoming lane will able defy the laws of physics when it meets a oncoming delivery truck. I however am not.
I am a realist. I am merely trying to apply pressure on the US State Department, The President, and the US Congress to take measured steps if an American Citizen’s human rights are violated. In the case of Akong, the lack of transparency makes his conviction a gross miscarriage of justice as it appears to me that the prosecutions has never proved that Akong has ever sent an SMS which I think is the prerequisite to a conviction as it has been presented.
Thais will have to make there own decisions as to what kind of society they wish to live in. It is not my place. I just suggest that if that concept includes one that alludes to foreigners having a positive attitude of Thailand, they have much work to do.
Ilived and worked there in the mid-90s. I currently reside in Arvada, Colorado. I get my information from the internet. I merely type into google “Joe Gordon” and get plenty of data to have a viewpoint and opinion on how Thailand is treating a fellow Coloradan.
I do contact my State’s Senators and Congressmen. Sadly it seems that the State Department defers to the Department of Defense in their decisions regarding Thailand (not unlike what we did with Mubarak in Egypt) . But Congress has in the past been able to over-rule such policies. Take for example the 1980s Contras and the Ollie North episode.
I don’t know what country you come from Ricky, but I live and work in a country where people are encouraged have opinions, share ideas, and develop political attitudes and share them and advocate changes in laws that we don’t like. I notice that open political space is quite limited in Thailand. Take for example the current discussion over an obscure group of seven academics who have proposed miniscule changes in a severely repressive law. The detractors of that group, have advocated a number of things including decapitation and placing their heads on sticks and we have that problem in our country too.
Is Thai culture and Thai Royalism so weak to be threatened by so little?
It reminds me that Several Anti-Abortionists have been convicted of murdering family planning clinic doctors. The difference is that in a free society we attempt to catch the perpetrators who commit such violence. And we pass laws like the Hate Crimes Laws which make targeting certain venerable groups especially heinous. Obviously, Thailand is a long way from achieving such a society.
We had our experiences with the Klu Klux Clan and their morphed outgrowths at ‘Christian Identity’ and the bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City; and I suggest that perhaps my advocacy here is Colorado is more importantly directed towards local issues here. I have no plans to jump on a plane and allow Thai fanatics a field day at my expense by openly challenging American Diplomats in Thailand. Especially since I can go to the offices of my elected representatives in their offices in nearby Denver. I instead work here in Colorado in HIV advocacy, against hate crimes, and as an active member of the liberal wing of the Colorado Democratic Party.
Mr. Gordon’s plight just happens to have caught my attention and I endeavor to do whatever I can to make my elected representatives here do what is right and get them to apply pressure on the US State Department and the DoD to effect Mr. Gordon’s release.
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Good idea, ask them why President Obama thinks it important enough to request Iran release one of his drones that flew into Iran’s airspace, but has not asked Thailand to release one of his citizen’s for exercising is first amendment rights on American soil?
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Today, March 8, 2012, begins Mr. Gordon’s forth month since he was sentenced by a Thai Court for exercising his American First Amendment rights of Free Speech in America.
It seems that Mr. Gordon’s infraction it that he subsequently traveled to Thailand to visit relatives and avail himself of the much purported benefits of cheap ‘medical tourism’ that Thailand attempts to purvey to the world.
His name appears to have come up in connection with a book written and published by journalist Paul Hadley of internation fame having worked with FEER in the past.
The entire judcial might of the Thai State, has come to crush not a terroist bomber in Bangkok, or a trafficer of drugs or child prostitutes but to an infirm used car salesman from Colorado who wanted to visit his extended family and buy some cheap generic Thai drugs.
Does the Thai elite tremble at the thought of other used car salesmen perhaps from Wyoming or New Mexico coming along and doing the same? Discussing current events in the land of their birth on the internet?
This is the tenth month of Joe’s incarceration. The past policy of freeing foreigners ensnarled in Thailand’s lese majeste a few weeks after their public ‘guilty verdict’ seems to no longer be in effect. Indeed there does not even seems to be an end to this affair with Mr. Gordon now that the prosecutor has appealed the sentence appearently making him unable to request a royal pardon.
Thailand, Free Mr. Gordon now. Show mercy, compassion.
Or do you have to fear other expatriate used car salesmen in your diaspora?
And please note my continued disappointment with my own Goverment in failing to exert more pressure on Thailand in this matter.
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Mercy? Compassion? They are making him pay for being a Thai-American who “forgets” the bit before the hyphen. You can work out who “they” are. It is a part of preparing for the next reign, setting the parameters for what can’t be said.
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Dear American citizen,
It is now a month since I wrote in response to your posting, but sad to say your words appear to be falling on deaf ears at New Mandala, as at most only 4 “thumbs” have been registered in the few posts since then.
When I suggested Americans in Thailand protest, I did not jest. Surely 112 is a draconian law as are the laws prohibiting criticism of court verdicts, but the law does not prohibit criticism of foreign governments or officials as far as I am aware.
The problem seems to be that Americans in Thailand (Eric Bahrt excluded) do not share our concern about the injustice done to Joe or the other victims of 112.
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An open letter to:
Gov. John Hickenlooper (D) Fax: 303-866-2003
Sen. Mark Udall (D) Fax: 202-224-6471
Sen. Michael Bennet (D) Fax: 202-224-1933
Rep. Diana DeGette (D-1) Fax: 202-225-5657
Rep. Jared Polis (D-2) Fax: 202-226-7840
Rep. Scott Tipton (R-3) Fax: 202-226-9669
Rep. Cory Gardner (R-4) Fax: 202-225-5870
Rep. Doug Lamborn (R-5) Fax: 202-225-1942
Rep. Mike Coffman (R-6) Fax: 202-226-4623
Rep. Ed Perlmutter (D-7) Fax: 202-225-5278
Now what I want to know is what you have done to try to obtain the release of fellow Coloradan Joe Gordon who has languashed in Thai jails for the ‘crime’ of lese majeste. He was arrested
while visiting his family in Thailand. The charges were based on blog writings that he wrote while a resident of Colorado
in the United States.
What did he write? The trials are held in camera and the exact charges are not revealed trasparently but it
seems that he wrote about the book The King Never Smiles, published by Yale–A book banned in Thailand.
So a former resident of Thailand, a naturalized US Citizen, comments about a book while residing in Colorado,
returns to visit family and recieve medical treatment and he is arrested, denied bail, shackeled, and persuaded
to plead ‘guilty’ under the false impression that he will recieve a quick pardon.
Instead, he continues to languash in jail. His second year begins at the end of this month.
What I want to know:
Is American Joe Gordon less important to the US State Department than a blind Chinese dissident?
Why the publicity and condemnation of China and not Thailand?
Have you urged legislation or initiated hearings into this matter? If not, why
Why have we not urged sanctions against the Thai Government?
Why have I not heard Secretary Clinton or President Obama condem the Thai Government’s actions in
this case?
Take steps to free American Citizen Joe Gordon, America’s Political Prisoner in Thailand.
Thank you for your time.
I would sign my name, however, I as evidenced by the arrest and treatment of Joe Gordon, I would risk my
freedom if I ever went to Thailand and so must sign………….
American Citizen and Fellow Coloradan.
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Well done!
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It is the Eve of the First Anniversary of the arrest of Joe Gordon, I am saddened that my fellow Coloradan remains incarcerated in a foreign country, ingnored by our State Department and Embassy.
Shame on You Civil Servants and Elected officials for failing to protect the rights of American Citizens.
Shame on you for not repeatedly publicly condeming the Royal Thai Goverment Authorities for violating Human Rights.
Shame on you for not urging sanctions against the Royal Thai Goverment.
Tomorrow, Joe begins his second year incarcerated in Thailand’s prisons.
Thailand: Stop this insanity. Send Joe Home Now!!!
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Joe Gordon has been released.
From the BBC today
Thai king pardons US man jailed for royal insult
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18792430
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Joe , Welcome Home!!!
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It was ridiculous to be imprisoned for translating parts of an academic book, published by Yale University Press, that is regularly referenced by scholars. I presume that Joe Gordon’s US citizenship had a great deal to do with his pardon, so here is the question that remains in my mind: does the royal pardon mean that Joe Gordon has the right to remain or return to Thailand, or will he/has he been put on a plane and told never to return to the Kingdom?
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