In today’s Sydney Morning Herald article, William Pesek (Bloomberg) has some interesting observations about the challenges faced by Yingluck in the coming months. He notes:
The trouble is, Yingluck, 44, still must overcome resistance from Thailand’s military, which is as coup-happy as they come. She must do the same with the courts and the bureaucracy as she tackles the prickliest issue of all: when and how she moves to return her brother Thaksin to the nation he’s been trying to run from afar in self-imposed exile.
That’s the real issue, and Thais will be assessing the risk that Yingluck moves too fast to repatriate her brother. Protesters and the military would snap into action and thrust Thailand back into crisis.
Much is forgiven when an economy scores high growth rates. In 2010, Thailand grew the fastest in 15 years. Yet stability matters, too. The longer Thailand goes without it, the further it falls behind China. Just a decade ago, Thailand was a democratic oasis in a region of autocrats. Today, it’s a political basket case.
It’s easy to forget how billionaire Thaksin bent Thailand’s leadership apparatus – the courts, bureaucracy and the military – to his will to benefit his business interests. Shares in the family media business, Shin Corp, surged after Thaksin’s sister won the election – it’s thought he will be calling the shots again, which would be great for Thaksin Inc.
If Thailand had built a robust political system, one where independent bodies existed to uphold its legitimacy, this would be dismissed as the stuff of conspiracy theories. Only it’s clear that Thaksin used his power while in office from 2001 to 2006 for personal gain.
It’s not a coincidence that Thailand has slipped to 78th among the 178 countries in Transparency International’s corruption perceptions index. In 2001, it ranked 61st.
- 1999: 68
- 2000: 60
- 2001: 61
- 2002: 64
- 2003: 70
- 2004: 64
- 2005: 59
- 2006: 63
- 2007: 84
- 2008: 80
- 2009: 84
- 2010: 78
It’s not hard to see where the big fall in Thailand’s international corruption perceptions ranking occurred.
This will be an interesting indicator to watch in the coming years.
UPDATE 10 July 2011: I have been told that my statement (“but citing Transparency International’s corruption perceptions index is misleading”) could be interpreted as suggesting that the index is itself misleading. That is not my intention and I have inserted clarifications above.
Also, as suggested by Bangkok Pundit on Twitter, I have prepared the following chart of the actual corruption perceptions index scores for Thailand (higher scores indicate less perception of corruption).
Another indicator to follow is the Press Freedom Index.
Here are Thailand’s rankings from 2002 to 2010 (a lower ranking is better):
2002: 22.75
2003: 19.67
2004: 14.00
2005: 28.00
2006: 33.50
2007: 53.50
2008: 34.50
2009: 44.00
2010: 56.83
Thailand is currently ranked 153 out of 178. This is down from 65 in 2002.
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I think William Pesek made an inaccurate assertion here.
It’s easy to forget how billionaire Thaksin bent Thailand’s leadership apparatus – the courts, bureaucracy and the military – to his will to benefit his business interests.
The 3 institutions certainly never been fully under Thaksin’s control, if that’s the case the court wouldn’t null the 2006 election just because the EC turns the voting box in a wrong position or even the 2006 coup itself. The elite network as a whole, rather, were the one controlling the 3 institution. Thaksin was (and is) part of the elite, he was certainly benefit from the elite exploit but he is surely does not have control over it.
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I have provided some clarification and additional information on this post. AW
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The return of Thaksin may be a pressing immediate issue, but it is neither the prickliest nor the biggest issue of all, as Willie suggests. The biggest issue of all is whether or not PT will be able to meet the aspirations of the people who voted for them. Having woken up the peasants, Thaksin and PT will find it very hard to put them back to sleep again. Is PT a genuine representative of a peoples’ movement, or is it just a clever player in what is just another internecine power struggle among Bangkok’s elite? In the long run, the answer to this question will be most telling on Thailand’s future.
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Stuart….
why would PT want to put the people back to sleep again?
anyway, Thaksin was popular because he did meet the peoples aspirations
and, we expect PT will do the same unless the military/elites manage to stop them
democracy works provided everyone, including those that dont want it accept the will of the people at every election
when will the military/elites learn to live under control of democratically elected governments?
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Stuart: The PT voters cannot make any change or evne concern about the commitment from the party. They are busying spending what they got for their vote. The critical issue for Yingluk is how to satisfy the groups inside the party and might need help from the exile brother.
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Taksin certainly knew how to make corruption benefit his interests but he is an amateur when it comes to the true masters of the discipline, the Democrats and Army. They have finessed their strokes into an art form, truly inspiring and a joy to behold, but as with all disciplines years of practice, focus and a spirit that never withers under duress are the hallmarks of a true expert.
Abbhisit although a mere beginner had the benefit of help and guidance from two notables of the art, Suthep and Newin, glorious in their ability to squeeze every last drop of tea money from the most minor matter to the largest unneeded infrastructure project. Their swashbuckling style and nonchalant indifference to criticism will be sorely missed.
The army, as always following a coup, set out on a course of unbridled greed and avarice in the pursuit of useless but profitable equipment unrestrained by fiscal considerations. As always, poetry in motion.
Phuea Thai has a hard act to follow despite their enthusiasm.
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Patsan
I’m aware this is typical of many Democrats’ prevailing view of Thailand’s peasants. It’s probably also Thaksin’s view. The “dumb, ignorant and easily led peasant” was true enough for many hundreds of years. But I’m not so sure it remains the case anymore. As Thailand transitions quickly from a rural agrarian society into a modern enterprise economy, it is already much harder to “keep the peasants in their place”. Higher levels of education and modern digital communication has heightened rural Thais’ awareness of the inherent inequalities. I think there is a real peoples’ movement afoot – without or without the support of PT. Thaksin was the first to recognise this, and is riding it for all it’s worth. He’s clever enough to make the most of it. He may well be using the “dumb ignorant peasants” to position himself; but, in time, the rising aspirations of rural Thais will eventually become bigger than even Thaksin’s ability to harness their power for his own ends. Awareness levels among rural Thais are high; the next step is for them to organise. They haven’t organised yet, and this is where Thaksin can still exploit them. But for how long can the tail wag the dog? Other elites are starting to smell the coffee, and are either burying their heads in the sand or clawing at the old structures for comfort. The clever ones, like Thaksin, will adapt and position themselves to benefit from it. The majority will simply be subsumed by it. For them, times will never be as good again.
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It is interesting that while public perceptions of corruption have deteriorated dramatically since the coup, they still haven’t plumbed the depths of the pre-Thaksin era when Chuan was PM. It is extraordinary that both Chuan and Abhisit, each of whom has a reputation of being a comparative “clean skin” both appear to have presided over periods when corruption was much more problematical, whereas Thaksin, the fugitive from a conviction for conflict of interest as well as other charges of corruption, seems to have kept a much tighter rein. Maybe the experience of the poacher makes him a better gamekeeper!
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Let’s face it. Thai people are basically corrupt. I am a Thai and I have seen potential corruption in every walk of Thai life. Chances are–with few exceptions–that my fellow Thais always wait for an opportunity to cheat on me if I get careless. You are just dreaming if you think corruption can be driven away from Thai life. It is here to stay, and nothing short of transplanting all Thais will do the trick, which would be well nigh impossible.
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“It’s not hard to see where the big fall in Thailand’s international corruption perceptions ranking occurred.”
I see the Corruption Perception index used many time as an attempt to show that the Thaksin years were not that bad and how it has declined since the 2006 coup and during Democrat coalition time.
What they seem to ignore, is what Transparency International say in the FAQ on the index about using the index in trend analysis.
http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/faqs
Can country/territory scores in the 2010 CPI be compared to those in past editions of the CPI?
The index is based on rankings of countries/territories calculated using a changing set of source surveys. The CPI is therefore not the appropriate tool for comparisons over time. Additionally, the number of sources and countries included has varied over time since the CPI’s inception in 1995. Certain source surveys have been added or discontinued. In an effort to improve the index over the last 15 years, TI has also made slight modifications to the methodology. As a consequence, the CPI cannot be used for accurate trend analysis.
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John Smith #12.
Could you suggest an alternative ?
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Struat: Agree on the point. However, while there is an upcoming of a strong government, but nothing about the quality of the people was mentioned. All they offer are popularist policies (300 Bht for standard pay/day, credit card for farmers/ what for? more easy money to spend,and the biggest one is on cell phones), which means they can gain more packs of royal grassroot people. I believe the changes is there, but shouldn’t be too optimistic. A strong belive in spirits, exocisms (don’ t get them wrong) among the rulral people are still there, that while every mid and 1st of each month you will see pack of people huming around an aged trees (the older the better, they believe they were haunted by ghosts) and determinely rub their bark just to get a 3 digits number for their underground lotery or once a while when they get some deformed lifestock, it will become their holy spirit to pray for.
These thinkings are nice when percieved as as a cultural threat given from anchestors, but is it a civilized or the third world’s mindset? Then we cannot be too optimistic or too naive with the policians here, they possess a good knowlege on how to orgainze/ manipulate the people.
Even, lots of aged people joined the rallies in Ratchaprasong because they were told to do so (sorry not any reason like political reform) and some lost their business from the failure of the OTOP program and just want their money back. Some of them (old ladies) were pushed to leave by the squad just tightly grasped their chairs and rufused to go, (while all the rally leaders were all disappeared into thin air), just for the money they expected to get for being there (showed on the local evening news on the day of riot). They are real poor, ignorant and uneducated people.
It’s quite difficult and complicated to figure it out from western world stand point actually.
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Patsan
Please spare me the patronising “you not Thai, you know nothing” mantra. While I’m sure some rural Thais do indeed spend their time “humming around aged trees and rubbing bark for 3-digit numbers”, the opinions of those I have spoken with strongly suggest to me that you need to get out more. You’re living in la-la-land, my friend. It’s time to listen to what your own people are trying to tell you; or catch a very large smack between the eyes. The last four elections would be a good start.
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@Patsan
Failure of OTOP program? Are you kidding? Last I was in Tokyo, a professor there was just telling me how impress they were by it! That OTOP (the concept) was so successfully implemented in Thailand when it did not quite take off in Japan.
If you are looking at failure cases, of course there are! When I was attending my MBA, a lecturer on start-ups mentioned that less then 5% of startups survived 5 years. So do look at the success stories, and expect there to be a lot more failures than success.
On another note, I highly respect these paganistic rural Thais who respect their environments and their roots. I highly esteemed my former farmer friends from Isaan who with barely any quality education and no English speaking ability, managed to get to Australia, worked, learn English, save money, eventually buy their own Thai eatery and feed their family, then bring their parents across.
My question to you is very simple: If you do not have parents who paid for your quality Education. If you had no money in your pocket. If you know your fellow urbane Bangkok citizens deemed you ignorant. Would you have had the guts, the brains, the determination to take out a loan from a loan shark (yes, loan shark, not civilized bank with collateral), travel alone to another country that do not speak your language, and made it there? Would you?
Think again before you say anything about those you consider are ” real poor, ignorant and uneducated people”.
They may be poor, uneducated, perhaps even ignorant. But I tell you all they lack is opportunity – the opportunity that you and I have. Give them that, and you will find they have other values. They have courage in the face of adversary. They are stubborn, persistent, they do not give up easily. They are loyal – they remember who are their friends. They are ‘paganistic’ – walking around tree humming – but will repay every debt they promise to repay because they fear the consequences. They are hardworking – what boss do not like hardworking souls? At the end of the journey, I seriously doubt if one can call them ignorant anymore.
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Patsan #14, the ‘educated’ isn’t that far off from the ‘uneducated’ then. You see directors praying for good fortune. Politicians touring Temples for spiritual advice both from prophets & monks. Superstition is everywhere in this country, from the elites to the poor.
I bet I can find a tree rubbing doctor somewhere in this country. And a farmer who blogs & skype with his children.
What you need to stop is clamoring to stereotype. Look at things layer by layer. Humans are sophisticated beings, and you’d do well to remember that.
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‘Corruption perceptions’ . . . most people usually miss the point relevant Thailand and Thaksin. Corruption Perception Indexes go up or down indefinitely and it is more likely a truism that corruption in Thailand (or any other country) would be an impossibility to eliminate.
The real point is that the ‘corruption perception’ about Thaksin the PM by the Thais and the by the world had been at a phenomenal high . . . before, during and after Thaksin’s rule. Meaning . . . the corruption tag attaches to the person of Thaksin in a rather big (godzilan) way.
Could you say the same about former PM’s Chuan or Abhisit? Nah . . . because these two former Thai PM’s had been honest and near religious about getting ‘personally’ implicated in any corruption period.
Whereas Thaksin had admitted and never denied that yes he and his wife were corrupt.
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Vichai N #18
“‘Corruption perceptions’ . . . most people usually miss the point relevant Thailand and Thaksin. ”
mmm yes I agree
how lucky we are that you and Sondhi Lim (perennial bankrupt and toady Royalist) are in the minority trying to run against the majority tide.
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So Vichai N. Remind me: how many people did Pol Pot personally kill?
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Vichai N – 18
I rather believe CPI than your statement, honestly. If you don’t know the Dem tactic of good cop bad cop then let me reminded you why Chuan seems to be the nicest guy ever, but his duo Sanan was running rampage and involve with several corruption charge that he himself go ban for 5 years? Moreover, the guy son was driving a BMW Z4 while he’s pretending to be dirt poor. Come on at least to true to yourself.
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@Vichai N
You are so hilarious! Either that or you are one of those poor brainwashed souls that the DP and the Establishment loves – believes all things bad about the other side and everything good about this side – with no contacts with any Thais in the “inner circle”, for lack of a better word.
I mean … “these two former Thai PM’s had been honest and near religious about getting ‘personally’ implicated in any corruption period”. Almost anyone in Bangkok, especially those with acquaintances/friends with people in DP (or any other parties, seriously) and especially if you go out drinking late at night at high class bars or late night ‘khao-tom-gui’ outings (pending your social class) knows and talks about who just got how much from what and whom etc etc – including those two religiously clean person you mentioned. Gosh, Samak even once let slip (deliberately IMO) where Chuan stash some of his ill-gotten money on one of the live TV talk shows!
And Honest? Ahbisit wouldn’t even admit he is a British citizen! Even after being confronted, he hemmed and hawed and claimed he never take advantage of his British ‘birth’ and always intent to return to Thailand. When asked if he would renounce now that he was PM, he petulantly said he can renounce if everyone wants it then went on attacking someone else for dual citizenship. The point seriously for HIM at that point is not who else had dual, but whether he WILL or WILL NOT renounce. He did not. Given his stint in the army barracks during the peaceful part of the Red Shirt protest, I really wonder what will happen if Thailand was invaded during his PM-ship. Would he stay in Thailand and fight or suddenly become ‘Mark’ Ahbisit V. again and return to UK as a British citizen?
As for Chuan being “religiously clean”, well. I suppose part of the reasons by the real power brokers chose him was he appeared ‘clean’, and I am sure the condition is he remain ‘clean’ in appearance (your point on perception taken). I remembered pitying him for having all those millions that he dare not spent – must be torture, I am sure most agree with me. Then, within a year of becoming PM (Chuan I), he bought a house with 5m baht cash outright for his ‘wife’ and son. I shan’t even mention the jewels you know who is spotted wearing. Since Chuan’s life career path and public pay is public knowledge, I am sure you can do your own maths.
Again, I am fully aware of Thaksin’s corruption and that had been written here many times, so I won’t bother repeating. Given what you have written, chances are I already know more than you. But think about it, neither side are ‘clean’ in any way. While Thai media might have been restrained in reported C&A’s -erm- other activities, I assure you the rest of Thailand isn’t. Especially not DP’s lower ranking MPs.
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‘Good cop bad cop’ . . .Tarrin picked a shoddy metaphor (#21).
When it comes to bad Thai cops Tarrin, extra-judicially bent Thaksin S. and extortion-notorious Chalerm Y. are living apodictic inspirations to Thai police rookies-wannabes. The worship of Thaksin/Chalerm perhaps is why there’s a scarcity of honest policemen in Thailand.
For Nuomi: I do recall Peau Thai (and former policeman) Chalerm Yubamrung mocking the Democrat Party about seven months ago because the DP picked ‘penniless’ lawyers like Chuan to be their party leader . . . whereas Peau Thai Party of course righteously demand ‘money’ above anything else from their leader.
Don’t you Tarrin/Noumi both sense something ethically amiss with the Thaksin mantra: “Yes I am corrupt, but everybody else is corrupt, and it is o/k to be corrupt”?
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c18
“Could you say the same about former PM’s Chuan or Abhisit? Nah . . . because these two former Thai PM’s had been honest and near religious about getting ‘personally’ implicated in any corruption period.”
Oh – “painter Chuan”, you mean? That nickname, of course, having nothing whatever to do with the whitewash job he was so ready to do so repeatedly for his many corrupt ministerial colleagues – as well as for his younger brother Raluek charged with embezzling 231.8 million THB (approx. 9 million USD in 1987) from Thai Farmers Bank who fled prosecution and only returned to Thailand in 2004 after the statute of limitations expired on his crime and he couldn’t be prosecuted. Yes – a great and “clean” example to follow…..
Similarly not even near consistent – never mind “near religious” – about corruption is Abhisit….. whose “iron rules” proved to be rather elastic and difficult to remember where his consortium colleagues were concerned. You can insert the ” ‘personally’ implicated” weasel words – but you conveniently ignore the very real responsibilities (and powers – if he only chooses to exercise them) of a Prime Minister.
Still, do keep cranking out your history re-writes. These are potentially grim times and we all need some light relief.
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Vichai N – 23
The different between us and you is that we never pretend that Thaksin is not corrupt (ala your comment #18) and at many point in time I do criticized him for many things. Just because you said Thaksin did something wrong doesn’t mean that his rival didn’t do the same. Moreover, I never brought Thaksin into conversation, it is always you who couldn’t find a better argument and use his as scapegoat.
If you really think the point thats Nuomi or me made were invalid then at least bring something solid to the table. Just pointing out Thaksin flaw is not going to whitewash Abhisit or Chuan dirty hand.
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Nuomi:#16
“My question to you is very simple: If you do not have parents who paid for your quality Education. If you had no money in your pocket. If you know your fellow urbane Bangkok citizens deemed you ignorant. Would you have had the guts, the brains, the determination to take out a loan from a loan shark (yes, loan shark, not civilized bank with collateral), travel alone to another country that do not speak your language, and made it there? Would you?”
Indeed, I got a fair education, but is it fair enough for the ones who are honestly enough to pay a full tax? (didn’t have any left for a tax aversion consultant). Is it “you get what you pay for”?
“On another note, I highly respect these paganistic rural Thais who respect their environments and their roots. I highly esteemed my former farmer friends from Isaan who with barely any quality education and no English speaking ability, managed to get to Australia, worked, learn English, save money, eventually buy their own Thai eatery and feed their family, then bring their parents across.”
Well it quite interestd on this “Hollywood/ The End of the Raingbow” fairy tale stereotype. Isn’t the Thais should proud of their culture, be self dependent and stay to help out their family/village instead of just left over to other place (since lots of Farangs think in vis versa). Actually, please don’t get me wrong, I didn’t mean to blame it all on the class/ education layer, but this are what really happen there. Thai rural people are a very polite, honest people. They just need an appropiate treatment, not a spoil one.
Leeyiankun#17
“What you need to stop is clamoring to stereotype. Look at things layer by layer. Humans are sophisticated beings, and you’d do well to remember that”
Well, should it take a good look at another perspective/ layer esp. when they are big enough (with their quantity). Again, I didn’t mean that all people who gathered there were as the last line quote, but it is the thing that was there.
More or less it is the opinion, don’t take it as the one single factual thing.
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To: Patsan
People, a very social organism, are very susceptible to swarm intelligence models that afflict herd mentality. Observing herd mentalities, group mentalities, you can not really deduce an individual assessment from their group/mass participation. Just like you would not really associate the กอ.รมน. officers with the red shirt rallies, but they stick out like a thumb anyways at those rallies, some I guess. My point is; intelligence is very often, I believe erroneously, misinterpretated as synonymous being smart. I mean this rhetoric was used by the Khmer Rouge; “you New People, if you’re so Smart try surviving in the most hostile and undeveloped lands that Ankgor has to offer, in the mean time we will exploit you and kill anyone of you that tries to be smart”(not a sympathizer to genocide, crimes against humanity, sorry if I offended, I don’t have a wealth of knowledge for example). It is unfortunate that a lot of Thais are still stuck with the supernatural explanation/meta-narrative, that they are still cognitively at rest from the evolving world, but should they really be the one’s to blame when is it not a catch phrase like; ไม่เชื่ออย่าลบหลู่ “non-beleivers don’t criticize,” or that the Theravada path is to save one’s self first before others: Monkhood; the higher cycle of existense is only applicable as first an individual/private path to Nirvana/Salvation. And the “formal public” education of Thailand being totalitarian and dictoral(personal and collective experience with friends who got expelled from them), should we not put some of the blame on who or whatever that had instigated, installed, instilled, ingrained, inaugurated a socio-cultural structure that is so detrimental to critical thinking and intelligence, that only empowers the few by oppressing the majority through giving conformity, obedience, and compliance the title of “smart” ฉลาด เชื่อฟัง ไม่ดื้อ รู้ต่ำรู้สูง, an esoteric monopoly on definitions, knowhow, worst of all; identity. And suppressed, obpressed, repressed anyone that dares to question, critcize or beg the differ, by killing when possible and now casting them as the “other” not real Thais or stupid Thais. It was never a problem when the poor did their social rituals as long as they were slaves to the hierarchy(who owns the gambling syndicates), but when they start to wake up and mobilize to demand for equity, which has no prerequisite of being smart or intelligent for that matter, the old “you stupid fools” rhetoric is invoked. The Thais as any peoples are not inherently stupid, they’ve just been asleep because the climate and abundance here allowed them so. But globalization has brought with it a rude awakening. Individually, people of many skills and professions, when awoken abruptly can be grumpy, but socially, when an entire economical sector or class is rudely awaken; it could be hostile. And the one’s to blame, are people that were privileged (is it spelled privyleged) enough to be educated by the best, but, never actually did anything for their fellow countrymen/women but perpetuate a system that makes the majority of the people of Thailand susceptive to mass exploitation.
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@Vichai N
“For Nuomi: I do recall Peau Thai (and former policeman) Chalerm Yubamrung mocking the Democrat Party about seven months ago because the DP picked ‘penniless’ lawyers like Chuan to be their party leader . . . ”
You are right that Chalerm is mocking Chuan for being ‘penniless’. However, you TOTALLY misunderstood the context. Chalerm knew exactly how Chuan got his stash of corruption money, roughly how much, and where Chuan stash the money. He was there on the same TV show when Samak made that ‘slip of tongue’. He was mocking at Chuan’s fake ‘penniless’ image because that image was a lie. (That is one level of sophistication up from mocking at a real poor man for being penniless which is plain snobbish and discriminative) Chalerm was mocking and laughing at those who believe in that so poorly kept fake poor image. More than the ‘penniless’ image, he was mocking Chuan’s total and utter lack of capabilities (penniless – he has nothing). In short, Chalerm is insulting the DP for choosing a non-leader, a personal with no skills and no resources to be their leader.
Now, to be really constructive Thais at this point – here is what we must do. We must ask the right questions:
DP-based questions: do we agree that Chuan is actually not leader and not PM material. If yes, then we must ask why the DP want such a weak leader? Then we must ask who are the real power brokers. What are their agenda? etc etc Of course if you think Chuan is leader material – then you must ask where is his power base? Who are his supporters and for what principles do they support him on… and are there really enough supporters to make him PM? With Chuan as leader, what directions would DP take? Is ‘clean’ Chuan going to throw all the corrupted old party dogs out of the party, for example.
Wider-based questions: How does putting Chuan up benefit DP? Help them win elections? What are the socio-economic factors supporting such a choice? Are the rivals that weak or are there other external factors? If rivals are that weak, again what does that mean for future Thai political landscape and then onto what does that mean in terms of country’s development. etc etc
——-
“Don’t you Tarrin/Noumi both sense something ethically amiss with the Thaksin mantra: “Yes I am corrupt, but everybody else is corrupt, and it is o/k to be corrupt”?”
Actually, that’s not a Thaksin mantra but most if not all Thais mantra. I don’t even have to confess for being guilty of slipping a 100B here or there to avoid paying a wrong turn or parking ticket and even to speed up getting my driver’s license (I got tired of flunking the written exam even though I am certain I got the right answers).
Thaksin’s mantra is actually quite interesting. Back to the point in time just before he became PM for the first time, he was interviewed and accused of getting xx million from yy. Thaksin snapped back and strode off (yes, he snapped): Believe me, its much easier being the one giving the money than the one taking it. (unsure of exact wording). That set the tone of how his ‘corruption’ works. In truth, I was never disappointed by how he did it – I am merely disappointed that he did it. If you cannot tell the difference between the two above points, then you won’t understand the point Tarrin is making either. Cheers!
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Not very many gush over Chalerm’s many ‘capabilities’, but to gush over Chalerm’s subtle rhetorics is well a new revelation to me. Was that Chalerm the subtle when he worked his extortionate magic so his trigger-quick son(s) would not be convicted for the police sargeant killing? Maybe Nuomi would gush over that one too.
Chalerm, Samak and of course Thaksin will definitely make those self-serving accusations that there is not one Thai politician who is not corrupt.
But Chuan and Chamlong and Prem were indeed clean and honest when they held the reins of Thai premiership and/or Bangkok governorship.
And about Nuomi’s ” In truth, I was never disappointed by how he (Thaksin) did it – I am merely disappointed that he did it.” But I do understand Nuomi that you’ll always gush over how Thaksin did or does it. Nuomi you just love Thaksin’s gutter-style politics is why.
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LOL. Dear Vichai, I am really too old to be ‘gushing’ over anyone like a young teenager. And seriously, if I were young again, I would rather be gushing over Sean Connery or Chow Ren Fatt. Much better looking, don’t ya think?
I agree with you Chamlong’s stint as Bangkok Governor was one of the cleanest I ever remember. I voted for him – also helped in printing and pasting election posters etc etc for Palang Dharma. I also know how much previous governors spent building overhead bridges and how much Chamlong spent. The depths of corruption is indeed shocking.
I am not certain this is even worth the effort explaining to you. Nevertheless, I shall try. To fight corruption, one has to do more than condemn it. Indeed, going around screaming “you’re corrupt” is easy. Corruption in Thailand is so deeply ingrained, sometimes one is dragged into it even when one does not want it. Take my driving license – I pass it with one try in Singapore (And Australia). Singapore’s driving test is much harder than Bangkok’s, Australia’s was easier (time-log version). After my 3rd failed written test, a fellow Thai kindly told me that I am too well-dressed and that if I want a pass, I should place a hundred baht in between my test papers. I eventually did it so as not to waste another day (I do have limited leave to take from work).
The above is the reason why I do not, and can never, take the moral high ground on this topic. I can only do what I can to combat it – and that includes understanding how it was done by various entities. By far, Democrat Party has the most efficient, time-tested, and tight corruption hierarchy (I am very impressed). Prem had one key advantage that he leveraged to the max. PAD tried to free ride on it but it backfired (maybe). Thaksin brought in several novel concepts into the arena. Etc Etc.
Indeed, I find Corruption Works a fascinating study. And most of the most corrupted practices actually took place in very classy posh environs – so I’m sorry I do not find Banharn’s or Chuan’s or Sannan’s or Snoh’s or Thaksin’s corruption any where near “gutter-style”.
It is my preference to know who did what, got what, and how they did it. It is so that I can explain to others not just why so and so is corrupted, but also what they did and how they did it. That is so much more convincing than just saying X is clean and Y is corrupt. You only have to do your maths taking the information Tarrin and I have provided to make a clear conclusion on Chuan. If you need more info – go to local libraries and check out old copies of tabloid magazines and papers not for what is written, but look at the photos. Shouts more clearly than anything a reporter might lie about.
Again, what I wrote on Chalerm is only in relation to your comment. However, if you wish to add in another incident, I shall comment on that too. Life as many has said here is very multi-faceted and multi-tiered. I had strictly condemned Chalerm’s actions in interfering with the legal process on his son’s behalf back then – what Chalerm did was wrong, and what his son did was deplorable. But at the same time, I can respect a father’s need to protect his son – even as I disapprove of his methods. At the same time, I am angry on behalf of the dead’s family that the boy got away with murder and rooted for justice on their behalf.
Seriously, just because someone did something bad doesn’t mean he never did anything good in his life. The reverse is also true. That someone did something good does not equate to that same person never doing anything bad. Yes, Chamlong was a good Bangkok governor – one of the best. Yet there was his time in the military. Banharn is corrupt, but he is also a loving husband. Chuan may be a wimpy politician, but he is also a fillial son. I have always said I highly respect Chuan’s mother for her dignity (but not her son) here and elsewhere.
And given all the names you or I bring up – it is really pointless to go into a “he also did this” or “he also did that” spiral. However, if you DO have a workable plan on how to get the old corrupt dogs out of politics (Sannan, Banharn, Newin, Thaksin, Chuan, Ahbisit, Chalerm etc etc etc) – that something worth arguing over (argue as in argument, not quarrel, please)
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“Chamlong and Prem were indeed clean and honest when they held the reins of Thai premiership and/or Bangkok governorship.”
Major General Chamlong and Field Marshal Prem, how should such diversed characters be assessed. They were men who men with guns feared, one guy had the guts or lack of marbles and punched Prem in public, remember him? I wonder what happened to him? General Artit was also in dispute with Prem was he not? He almost got into trouble with illegal financial issues. Not to mention other more recent allagations by Redshirts. And Chamlong, rumors say he was/is a well experienced field combat specialists. Could it be that, they had other ways of getting what they want done that it evades the public eyes. I guess only the people who did their dirty work, if any existed, would know.
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That was a very lengthy wordy commentary Nuomi condoning or excusing the Thaksin/Chalerm corruption. Thaksin and Chalerm would certainly be very pleased and encouraged to corrupt some more.
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I think I can understand Vichai’s disdain for moral and epistemological debates.
He has shown a firm conviction to oppose Thaksin’s corruption and the erroneous beliefs shown by many of us that there are other corruptors worth mentioning. If only we all have the same fervor as him the world would no longer be masterminded by Thaksin and become a better place for our children.
So, really, there is no need for Nuomi’s ‘wordy’ debate since there is only one simple tenet that matters and that is: “Thaksin is corrupt”. Anything that deviates from or fails to mention that is a pointless gush and distraction.
But Vichai, really, you’re quite wordy yourself as New Mandala already announced a new comment policy that the revelation “Thaksin is corrupt” you’ve been enlightening us only needs to be represented with “1″. See the link below.
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2011/06/11/new-mandalas-new-comment-policy/#comments
So, 1. Thank you.
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Now that we are in agreement that Thaksin indeed is corrupt (to godzilian scale), we have to be disturbed that Thaksin’s Peau Thai Party (founded on corruption to serve Thaksin and only Thaksin) had been reincarnated with a vengeance.
Now we can proceed to ‘moral’ and ‘epistemological’ debates about how a Peau Thai Party deeply corrupted by Thaksin could be expected to serve the Thai people without self-serving distractions and corrupt pursuits.
And we should expect more extra-judicial distractions . . . because such distractions are useful why Thaksin’s left and right hands shall be busy with other more rewarding pursuits.
Anyone?
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Vichai,
Can you provide a brief list of Thaksin’s worst corruption backed up with facts from credible sources?
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It seems we don’t need any independent or external assessments of Thailand’s corruption record.
‘The majority of Thai people say a corrupt government is acceptable to them if, in being dishonest, it can also bring prosperity to the people and to the country, according to the results of an Abac Poll released on Wednesday.’
‘Those who voiced no objection to corrupt practices included: 71 per cent of respondents under 20 years of age…’
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/247953/poll-corrupt-govt-acceptable-to-thais
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Vichai, if you want to take on the mantle of discussion panel chairman, you should note that the job comes with expectations of being a] accurate and b] even-handed in your summing up.
I think you should consider whether you’re really ready to leap to b] when you plainly struggle to come anywhere remotely close to a].
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JohnH#36, that’s because the current government has shown them that being incompetent is even more scarier than corruption.
Seeking war with your neighbors? -check
Rising price of Palm oil, despite being one of the world largest producters? – check
National debt is now at a record high? -check
Not to mention GT200 & 92 people shot dead in the middle of the capital from protests.
The only reason PT won, was that TRT shown that being competent is what really MATTERS. Corruption is secondary, as it should be.
Corruption is like a cancer, and needs to be eradicated.
But you’re more likely to die if you can’t control your limbs while walking along the sidewalk. Not to mention looking idiotic while dying, leaves you with no dignity.
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JohnH – 36
‘The majority of Thai people say a corrupt government is acceptable to them if, in being dishonest, it can also bring prosperity to the people and to the country, according to the results of an Abac Poll released on Wednesday.’
That is just weird, it goes against all the logic. If the government is corrupted, by default, the country cannot have prosperity. I’m almost sure that corruption and prosperity have negative correlation. I think we have to really think about what “corruption” means in this case. Which bring me to my next point.
VichaiN –
Now that we are in agreement that Thaksin indeed is corrupt (to godzilian scale),
If Thaksin is as corrupted as you said, how come our debt to GDP go down almost 10 percents during his term? there is something really wrong with that.
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#Tarrin
I think the Thailand’s debt to GDP went down about 16 percent.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/30180/did-thaksin-bankrupt-thailand-through-borrowing/
#JohnH
There are different kinds of corruption. Some are harmful to economic development, some are not. Maybe the BTS project generated 20% of the budget in kickbacks. But Bangkok would surely be worse off if it delayed the project by spending 10 years on corruption allegations.
#Vichai
You don’t have to produce a ‘godzilian’ list. Just a top 5 list is fine.
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Perhaps before, during, and after is a skewed way to interpret data. There may be only before Thasin and during as since 2000 he has clearly been the main driving force in anything happening or being blocked in Thailand. Therefore viewing the data in a ten year trend attributable to before his era of dominance compared to under his dominance, which Thailand is still under and will be for the next ten years, may be an interesting perspective.
Going back to the 1990′s Thaksin, whiles amassing his massive wealth, was arguably the poster boy for procurement, schemes, corruption, policy manipulation to ensure market dominance and monopoly pricing and insider trading. At the end of the 90s, he was the poster boy for children as to what makes a successful businessman and perhaps he could bring order at least to chaotic politics. (puzzling why anyone would ever expect a tiger to change it’s stripes)
As for corruption in general, it is scary to think that the poll studies show that over age 50 consider corruption unacceptable while younger respondents pretty much have given up on principles and just want the powers that be to deliver something, no matter how much disappears in the process. It is not to assign blame to anyone, but the trends of the last 20 years will extend beyond the current young generation into a second generation. While not the only player, one may argue we are in the middle of a thaksin era and he is both a product of and a driver of the long term corruption trends and scary changes in governance expectations of the Thai public.
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c41
My compliments to Macro – No, actually that’s inadequate…..
I am lost in admiration at the ingenious combining of two sets of data to produce the proposition. If I understand it correctly, below a certain age i.e. 50, Thai are now considered to be (let’s call them) “Thaksin’s children” – who acquired all their bad habits/attitudes from the example set by their….. well….. “father figure”, I suppose?
In line with the Jesuits’ aphorism “Give me the boy until he is 7 and I will show you the man. “, the attitude spawned by Thaksin is therefore responsible for all that follows. That corruption indices rose dramatically after his time in office of course only supports the proposition – because that’s what you’d expect from the “corruption’s OK” attitude spreading virus-like.
In fact, wait a minute – maybe the virus-spread comparison is a better fit than the Jesuit one? It also opens up the inheritance factor more – parents passing on the corruption virus (hmmm – maybe a gene by now?) to their offspring. Just a suggestion of something for you to work on, Macro – too much for me to handle….. I need to go and lie down.
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However much we quibble about corruption, where/ when it started, who is/ was the biggest perpetrator, etc. the cold hard fact remains that government corruption is a way of life in Thailand, and has been for a very, very long time.
Do we really need indices from wherever to show us what we already know?
And frankly, does anyone really believe that those responsible and party to corruption in Thailand really give a damn what anyone else thinks or what the bar charts and tables purport to show?
Do you really need to care about real economic growth, developing society or even people when you can salt away your ill gotten gains overseas or wherever with absolute impunity?
Equally, if you are the man on the street frying chicken to make a living to support your family, is it little wonder that you accept corruption in Thailand.
What’s the real alternative for you?
Standing up, being counted and then being shot?
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like SteveCM #42
I also find these twisted (il)logical games amazing
I would start from what seems a basic premise:
“anyone that makes a lot of money (if they are Thai) must be corrupt”
as various have pointed out, Thaksin’s net worth increased during his time in power somewhat less that the corresponding average increase in value of shares on the Stock Exchange of Thailand (SET)
but the asset value of Crown Property and banking and in fact more than 50% of value on the SET increased more than Thaksin’s value
I presume therefore we have to accept the at the Thai Royal Family and the various bank, PTT, CP, etc owners were all more corrupt than Thaksin at the same time as he was in power
were they all colluding to achieve these gains?
why then did they go along with supporting Sondhi Lim in setting the scene to get rid of Thaksin?
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More seriously than my c42 above (Lord, I hope there aren’t many who did take it seriously), there’s this element from that Bangkok Post report mentioned by JohnH (c36):
“People opposed to corruption are mostly over 50 years of age and earning less than 5,000 baht a month”
Potentially interesting. On the one hand, when you’re dirt-poor/living hand-to-mouth just whom are you in a position to corrupt? On the other hand, just what (outside of election time, possibly) have you got to offer that anyone wants to buy or corrupt you for?
But it’s not clear whether the meaning is “over 50 and earning less than 5,000 baht” as opposed to “over 50 or earning less than 5,000 baht”. If the latter, just maybe it’s an indication that people with much more experience of seeing the long-term effects of corruption thereby get wise to its true cost…..
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Marco – 41
While not the only player, one may argue we are in the middle of a thaksin era and he is both a product of and a driver of the long term corruption trends and scary changes in governance expectations of the Thai public.
I’d like to argue that although Thaksin is a product of corrupted Thai’s society but he was and still is not a driver of (I presume, acceptance of) corruption trend as I pointed out earlier, where do you draw the line from plain old “corrupted” and simply spill off?.
Yes, Thaksin got his monopoly from the concession agreement with TOT, but he was not the one who structured Thailand in such a way, it was Chuan government who did not allow telecom sector liberalization. Thaksin just play along the game and he won, with the help of Chalerm of cause (I suspected that’s the only reason Thaksin kept this guy around, to pay back the favor). While during the turner, Thaksin was the one who adjusted the concession so that his competitor DTAC (and some extend, TRUE) to penetrate the market in pre-pay service. I recalled that during 2002-2004, Thailand was actually ahead the US in mobile services, we were downloading ringtone and paying bills on cel-phone, the US didn’t even experience that in full until way later.
If Thaksin was indeed, a poster boy of “procurement, schemes, corruption, policy manipulation to ensure market dominance and monopoly pricing and insider trading.” he wouldn’t do that for DTAC. But I do agree that there were many favoritisms during Thaksin that in many case it was just plain stupidity and the man do have many bad flaws.
A rather more interesting point of view, I think, is what will Thailand become when the “good” old king is gone.
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The only debate left is whether or not there is/was any other Thai who should wield the title ‘Mother of all Thai Corruption’, if not Thaksin.
Thaksin indeed pushed the boundaries when it came to corruption . . . and corrupting Thai institutions. The recent wikileaks about Thaksin skimming the national lottery and using the Thai Deputy Police Chief as the bagman to make the deliveries to we-know-who should underscore that point.
And Snoh’s bombshell of a book of the extent of the Thaksin-Potjaman mafia-like corruption regime also underscore the genius of Thaksin when it comes to organized large scale corruption. Excerpts:
“He placed one of his own people in every ministry. These people did not need to have a powerful post, but everybody knew who they were … If any minister wanted to propose a project using the central budget, the minister would first have to clear it with ‘his person’ first. Many ministers were approached by ‘his person’ saying, ‘The budget is coming. You can have five or six billion, but 10 per cent must go to the party … Any minister who would not do this, could not remain.”
Snoh then explained how the system worked.
“For this 10 per cent policy, the minister would have to pad the budget proposed for approval to include the 10 per cent that would go to the party. Then once it was agreed with ‘his person’ via Khunying, the matter could be sent to his trusted ‘permanent political representative’, who used to be his company employee. To date nobody knows how much this 10 per cent amounts to. Probably need to ask Khunying.”
Snoh claims to have asked Pojaman what she needed so many billions for, and got this answer: “In politics you have to hand out money. It has to be considered a business.” Snoh asked her what would happen if things blew up, and she replied, “If Thaksin falls, the Thai Rak Thai Party will have to stay in power for at least two more terms for safety.”
(Note: Thaksin missed that ‘at least two more terms for safety’ and indeed had to flee Thailand)
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Vichai,
“The recent wikileaks about Thaksin skimming the national lottery and using the Thai Deputy Police Chief as the bagman to make the deliveries to we-know-who should underscore that point.”
Which specific cable are you referring to?
“And Snoh’s bombshell of a book…”
Book title? Author? Link?
Corruption on this scale must have been known by many people. Why has it not been brought to court?
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Vichai N – 47
The only debate left is whether or not there is/was any other Thai who should wield the title ‘Mother of all Thai Corruption’, if not Thaksin.
Why is it the only debate? what’s the point? do we even have the degree of corruptness?? Don’t you think its a bit shallow to be even debating about the topic? since you don’t even want to list out what exactly did thaksin do that constituted as corruption (mind you with good solid proves), so how do we even initiate your demand for debating??
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Vichai – If you really want to cite wikileaks, then there is only one befitting the title ‘Father of corruption’, considering the numerous backroom deals involving high rank officials, army generals, and courts that he’s behind.
Though, I believe his self-styled doublespeaking terms is ‘Father of the Land’.
Would you happen to know anyone with that description?
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Mmm…, here’s an interesting initiative from the Thai Police.
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