As soon as I heard the news that German authorities had impounded the Crown Prince of Thailand’s plane I knew we were in for a lively few days.
Some media outlets, like The Nation, won’t even mention Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn by name. He is merely a “Thai national”. MCOT plays a straight bat. But Thai Rath isn’t so shy. Nor is the Bangkok Post. It provides more details, and pulls fewer punches. I do wonder, though, whether Thai Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya is exactly right when he claims that “[t]his airplane is personal property, not that of the Thai government. So the German government cannot seize it…”
Bangkok Pundit, a handy chap on legal matters, has a long post sketching out the technicalities.
Apparently Werner Schneider, the insolvency administrator for the firm involved in this dispute, has been summarily banned from entering Thailand. I can’t imagine he’s too fussed. After this brazen move he’s now got the Crown Prince’s plane as leverage. Who would have thought?
What a terrifically delightful story! I don’t think FM Kasit Piromya or the rest of the RTG will be able to lie or bluster their way out of this one, but they are certainly going to try! Bangkok Pundit has some good reporting and it appears the plane is indeed owned by the Royal Thai Air Force, despite what they are saying. I don’t think the German government is going to lift a single finger to help Kasit, so he is in store for quite a loss of face. Nobody in Germany cares that it is the CP’s plane. For that matter, I don’t think that many people in Thailand care.
He and the rest of the Abhisit government should do the right thing; give up on this decades long foot dragging and Thai exceptionalism bullshit and pay up! The money is long overdue.
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I felt bad for the prince really, the whole thing happened because the Abhisit government doesn’t want to pay the debt and the prince took the fall for it.
Hot debate. What do you think? Quality comment or not?
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Nik – Haven’t you missed the point about news coverage? BP’s first report was dated Jul 13, 2011 11:05AM UTC ( which is 6:05 pm BKK time). The Thai press did not report the incident until Jul 15 when it could have been in the papers on 14th.
Why the slowness? Did they fear Lese Magesty charges ( and does The Nation still fear and hence no mention of the pilot) or are they trying to cover up the frequent visits to Munich?
No doubt the folk in Phrae will be giggling also.
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Thanks Ricky,
Maybe — but I doubt that is the explanation. Newspapers are often slow on the uptake. Bloggers have all manner of advantages when it comes to getting news and analysis out quickly. That we don’t face a single, once-a-day deadline is obviously one issue. So I am not reading too much into the relatively slow response of Thailand’s press. Their choice of language is a different matter…
Best wishes to all,
Nich
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I wouldn’t be surprised if our Werner was once on the arse-end of a Pattaya jet-ski scam. Touché
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11 
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Wouldn’t say The Nation quite got away with ‘not mentioning the war’. Halfway into the article:
“I made it clear that this matter has nothing to do with the royal court,” (Kasit) said.
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6 
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@ Nich
The first article about the topic was published in Germany on the 12th in the Financial Times Deutschland, later “Der Spiegel” picked it up as well. I posted also on the 12th on a Thai Forum, but my post was banned. I FB’ed Bangkokpundit and he took it up a full day later, a message to BKK Post and The Nation was never replied (all on 13th). I had the feeling that nobody really wanted to touch this “hot topic” here in Thailand. …
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Thanks Hualan,
That makes sense. One further observation about this evolving story is that the Thai media, again, fails to ask the key questions about big international stories that break in its backyard. I am reminded of this post from earlier in the year where I questioned this mentality.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
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16 
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I think Kasit is so used to lying he forgot that if his lies ‘defame’ a foreigner, he can be liable for them in a foreign court.
He said that the liquidator ‘faked’ the evidence, and the German Court was gullible to believe the liquidator’s fake evidence. That is a serious allegation, and the liquidator can take action on defamation if it is not true.
These Thai elites are so spoiled in Thailand with their lying since they know that the Court will never rule against them, since they are all in the same side. They probably have forgotten that they cannot manipulate the German Court like they did with the Thai Courts. Come on Germany, sue him for defamation. I would love to see what’d happen!
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Thai Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya (…) claims that “[t]his airplane is personal property, not that of the Thai government. So the German government cannot seize it…”
The German government?
The German government is not involved in this. The guy is acting on behalf of his client and just uses the tools that the german law provides in these cases.
I don’t really think that the German government is very happy about this, but they are just not legitimized to do anything about it.
So a) Kasit is right. The German government cannot seize it.
b) The German government didn’t seize it but an individual seized it according to the law. c) In this case this German individual CAN seize it.
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55 
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Political Prisoners in Thailand has had two posts on the topic, both derivative of BP’s, but making some of the points made above. There general point is worth considering:
“The question of ownership and the distinction between state property and that of the royals is complicated. For example, the Crown Property Bureau has claimed that its assets are state property when clearly they are not.
It is increasingly clear that while the distinction between royal property and state property was made clear several decades ago, the increasing wealth of the royal family, its extensive business interests, and the campaigns of several decades to restore the political and economic power of the monarchy have increasingly blurred the distinction. Fawning of the monarchy by state officials also means that almost no one is prepared to raise questions when state property is transmogrified into something else.”
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TIT. You can’t make this shit up!
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Werner seems to be determined to put the matter to rest, so this one could run and run. Poor old CP may have to come back on Thai Inter - no doubt he’ll insist on piloting it; just glad I won’t be on it.
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14 
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Anywhere in NM archive in one of the numerous topics about the CP there must be a comment from a German reader mentioning a visit by the CP on a local Fairground in 2008 (with link to a German webboard) . The following year a local newspaper catched him on another Fairground. Both are in close vicinity to MUC.
A few weeks ago, the same newspaper found him in the strawberry fields:
http://www.wochenblatt.de/nachrichten/kelheim/regionales/Ein-Prinzenpaar-im-Erdbeerfeld;art1176,55776
Anyhow, this would be his 4 th consecutive summer ( if he plans to stay)
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17 
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Daresay if if they confiscate the plane the military will just ask for and get a new upgraded one, not a matter of budget concerns, who would dare say no?
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17 
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Fabian (10), I think you’ll find that the aircraft has been seized on the order of the court, which is an arm of (the Bavarian?) Government. But the courts in Germany are completely independent of the executive. That is what Kasit doesn’t understand. He must think they are like the corrupt Thai courts which can be pushed around by anyone with enough power. He can pressure the German Federal Government all he likes, but the Government will not interfere with the Court. Kasit’s behaviour has been unbelievably bad. What a jerk! How hugely entertaining!
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77 
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Gee… doesn’t that act on the part of the putsch cabinet expose The Institution to public ridicule and disrepute?
Doesn’t that constitute textbook lèse majesté?
Shouldn’t the entire cabinet be in remand prison as I write, without bail, for two or three years prior to the gracious offer of half-time sentences for guilty pleas from the State?
Or maybe just off with their heads?
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35 
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It’s not even a “High Court” like the International Court of Justice ICJ, another court Kasit will face in a few days.
The seizure sticker attached to the plane says “Amtsgericht” which means “Local County Court” in German
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20 
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“Kasit said he had placed Schneider on the “persona non grata” list banning him from entering Thailand.” – The Nation
What a childish, petulant response from someone so utterly removed from the real world. Does this prat live on the moon? He reminds me of a spoilt child stamping its foot on the playing field: “Not fair – I’m not going to play with you anymore”.
Pathetic.
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52 
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We are witnessing some of the very best characterizations of “Thainess,” that unique quality that makes real Thais who they really are. And it explains why Thais who go abroad are often ashamed of coming back. The pretension is nauseating after some exposure to reality – and not as it’s defined in the LOS.
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@Chris B #12 said: “Poor old CP may have to come back on Thai Inter – no doubt he’ll insist on piloting it; just glad I won’t be on it.”
I don’t think he has the license to pilot B747. He can pilot the 734, and he pilots it sometimes domestically. (Rumour has it that he’ll call himself “Captain Somchai” if he pilots a 734.) He usually travels in First Class if he boards Thai Air to Munich; he does not pilot the 747 as far as I am aware of
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@Ricky: Stories like this get held up for serious editorial review and discussion, for obvious reasons. Not being the first to stick your neck out has some advantages too.
I’m with the Germans on this one. Time to pay up, RTG.
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I was just wondering if Werner will face arrest for LM should he dare visit Thailand anytime during the lifetime of our you know who…
@Tarrin
Actually, I feel more sorry for the incoming Thai government (any party except DP). The DP + Army left such a big mess locally and internationally…
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28 
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Hugely entertaining to see the Thai elites running around the world displaying the same attitudes they display when running around in Thailand.
Even more entertaining to see Kasit have a porterhouse blue about it all. Perhaps he’ll sue the German government for breaking Thai laws while in Germany.
They just don’t seem to get it…
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37 
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The issue of Thailand’s compliance, or ahem, non-compliance, with arbitration awards is worthy of more detailed consideration.
Consider the Hopewell Project. See Bangkok Post November 17, 2008: “…Early this month an arbitration committee ruled that the SRT (State Railways of Thailand) and the Transport Ministry should pay 11.8 billion Baht plus 7.5% interest per year, and return a letter of guarantee worth 500 million Baht to the Hong Kong based Hopewell (Thailand) in compensation for terminating a concession contract to build a 60km elevated system for ordinary and electric trains, a tollway and frontage fronts…” Wonder if Gordon Woo was paid?
And what of the construction of the Bangna-Trad elevated road? In an arbitration between the contractor BBCD and the Expressway and Rapid Transit Authority, the ETA was ordered to pay Bt6.2 billion for delays in construction due to late hand over of land. This award was upheld in the Civil Court but reversed by the Supreme Court.
The latter case resulted in a Thai cabinet resolution that: (1) arbitration clauses may not be used in contracts between Thai public authorities and public sector entities and (2) that such contracts may only be in Thai language (obviously putting foreign contractors at a disadvantage).
So it looks like Thailand public entities are rather sensitive about complying with arbitration awards, particularly if it involves paying out large sums of money.
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26 
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Quote from heading-for-the-exit Abhisit in Khao Sod’s report:
“There was no need for seizure of property… if the final court verdict said Thailand must pay the debt, we would comply anyhow.”
Well, of course, we know the standard Thai definition of “final” when it comes to court verdicts – i.e. it’s only final when it’s in your favour. Rather like Abhisit’s “wishful reading” approach to the 1962 ICJ verdict on Preah Vihear.
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I am so sorry for Kasit that he was not successful in Germany.
The plane will stay sealed and the county court in Landshut was telling that the papers of the plane gave not enough validity for the ownership of the CP. Maybe we will see in the next days a Thai fabrication of new papers. Another interesting point is that the Thai government is not willing to make a security payment to release the plane. Werner Schneider was making such an offer but it was rejected.
Here is the press note thereabout at Spiegel online (in German): http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/0,1518,774794,00.html
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15 
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Stuart at #18: Do you have a link for the Nation story? I can’t find that line yet.
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0 
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Haha…. this story gets more and more funny.
Poor guy. He just did his job and now he is not allowed to come to Thailand for a private holiday… hehe…
In Germany as rightly said above the courts are independent from the government.
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9 
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Ownership?
Who bought this aircraft?
Who pays the operating costs, royal outfitting, insurance, staff, fuel, maintenance, landing fees, storage, catering, entertainment, depreciation, etc.?
This should be interesting.
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30 
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Google translate offers this magnificent opening sentence for the Spiegel piece:
“Despite all the efforts of Thailand to continue sticking it to the bailiff of the cuckoo.”
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9 
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A wise farang once said “Only invest in Thailand what you can afford to loose.”
Thousands of people have been stung by loosing money in Thailand. The Thais are masters of avoiding responsibility, accountability and above all have no shame when it comes to ripping people off.
The attitude is just like one respected Thai politician’s view
“I don’t respect Farangs.”
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34 
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OK, I looked it up.
Boeing 737 – used price-
5-10 years is still considered almost new, so the price would be around $45 million if you only buy one. Add another $2-5 million per year for maintenance, fuel, wages etc
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Ralph Kramden #28
You can find it here: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/07/15/national/Thailands-making-all-efforts-to-end-aircraft-spat–30160340.html
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The Thai approach to working with foreign investors is to get the work done and then look for reasons not to pay, and this also applies to their dismal record on complying with international treaties and covenants to which they are often signatories (to generate good appearances) bit are rarely compliant.
In the Loxley lottery bid 2 or 3 years back, it was reported at the time that the government officers trying to find a way out of the lottery, for which contracts had already been issued to a consortium which included Loxley, were instructed to ‘find something that we can use as a reason to cancel it’. On another phase of the BKK tollways a few years ago, payments of several billion baht were refused on the basis that 2 light poles were 1m shorter than specified.
The Thai has a moral deficit, it comes in part from decades of poor education and a propagandised belief that Thais are better than other folk. Outside of Thailand, Thai misdemeanours are often rewarded with a judicial kicking, which of course is never reported inside Thailand to preserve the self-esteem of the Thai nation, same as the CP has been described as a ‘Thai national’ in that awful rag the Nation, to avoid loss of face (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/07/16/national/Kasit-seeks-a-meeting-with-German-deputy-FM-over-i-30160380.html).
It would be nice to see Thais get their come-uppance more often, and this episode, featuring the aircraft toy of perhaps the most loathed and detested person in Thailand is a good start, hopefully it won’t fall in a heap.
Little by little, Thais are being exposed over recent years as having more than their fare share of corruption, cheating and thieving among the citizenry and the government and the bureaucracy, but they seemingly aren’t bright enough to understand that sooner or later, their bottom line will suffer as a consequence of this moral deficit.
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Ralph(#27): The quote is in the last line here: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/07/15/national/Thailands-making-all-efforts-to-end-aircraft-spat–30160340.html
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0 
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There are two Nation stories at the moment that are easy to find:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Thailands-making-all-efforts-to-end-aircraft-spat–30160340.html – as indicated by Stuart. This one refers to “Thai national.”
Another Nation story on it is http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Kasit-seeks-a-meeting-with-German-deputy-FM-over-i-30160380.html. This one ends with Abhisit quoted as saying Thailand has lots of assets. He did not mention that its nationals are more than adroit at hiding them, especially when it comes to accountability and liability cases.
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10 
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My last comment led me to check the World Bank’s Kingdom of Thailand – Public expenditure and financial accountability : public financial management assessment, dated October 2009. The 122 page PDF document (also available in text format) mentions corruption only twice, and in each instance as part of a compound noun Corruption Commission. Thus, I fear some lack of credibility in the report. Capital ‘L.’
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Thanks Stuart.
Pam makes an excellent point. I’d be prepared to bet that the Thai taxpayer foots the bill for all of these essentially private junkets.
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“‘All of the Thai people are worried about what happened,’ he (Kasit) said.” Bangkok Post.
Did Kasit do a referendum on this?
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31 
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I have informally polled may Thai friends about the seizure of th Prince’s plane by the German courts and find that Kasit’s statement about “All of the Thai people are worried about what happened” is not correct. They don’t seem to give a stuff about the Prince’s plane although a few of them did think it was a good joke. Some even suggested he stop playing around in Germany and get a job.
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As to a wise farang once said “Only invest in Thailand what you can afford to loose.” I don’t disagree with your synopsis of Thais and the dangers of opening a business but having previously worked in real estate (long retired) in Thailand I would suggest that was usually referring to the purchase of property as usually he didn’t actually have the money to buy, so had no choice but to rent and was justifying that to friends.
I have owned several properties there for a long time, the rate of return is very good at 10%+, no land taxes or hassles either. Compare that to the west. Thailand like everywhere is a mix of good and bad, a few dollars in the bank tips the scales considerably though. And there are many farang there that only just manage to survive, and often by being involved in similar scams to the Thais. Anyone been there a while has seen them.
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10 
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Ok, NOW, Thailand is reacting to a court directed settelement whiched invoked seizure of one of its gov’t assets in Germany. They cannot crawl out from under this with their typical corrupt and heavy handed approach…..and if they are too stupid to know (which they most assuredly are), they are in for a rough ride from the German civil system. They are dealing with the German systen IN Germany and they are sucking the hind tit on this fiasco whch is surely causing loss of their hypocritical faces, and the sobering realities outside of Thailand which they CANNOT control. Big loss for Thailand….serves them right You rip people off and the civilized western society uses proper remedies to shoveit in your face, while they keep trying to forge ahead with more cock and bull lies…! Should be so interesting to see how the Thai establishment deals with this now that they are on the global stage!!
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28 
1
Would a good Buddhist lie?
Sort of tells the scope of ability to tell a tale and constantly get away with it.
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1 
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The ClownPrince has two 737:
115.^ “Boeing 737-448 HS-HRH, Operator (Owner): Thailand – Air Force; Delivery Date: November 26, 2004, former Aer Lingus EI-BXD”. jetphotos.net. Retrieved: August 31, 2010.
116.^ “Boeing 737-4Z6 HS-CMV, Operator (Owner): Thailand – Air Force; Delivery Date: February 28, 1995.” jetphotos.net. Retrieved: August 31, 2010.
Both has the บ.พระราชพาหนะ ( ??Royal Mobile Company?? ) emblem on them with the initials that belongs to the ClownPrince.
Something like this could make the thai people think about a lot of questions and the authorities are probably worried that us thais might get ourselves hurt for attempting at something that is usually the role of the Thai authorities, hence, the slow pace of the press.
Which of the two was confiscated? Does every Royal family member have one or two? Why isn’t one enough? Why is it so big for a private jet? Could it be that the government was corrupt when they bought it, buying the bigger more expensive one for private สวนพระองค์ use they could like take commision kick backs? Would this be bad for the sufficient economy policy? etc…
The Thai authorities are just protecting us thais from the brutishness of foreign judicial autonomy. (sorry for bad ad hoc tranlations my english is not that good; I am thai and spent most of education in Thailand)
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I do wonder a little about the patience of the Thai public with the ongoing outrageous behavior of O. His behavior over the years is incongruent with normal behavior with his series of concubines, naked birthday parties, diplomatic blunders with Japan and China, and all the rest. It is hard to think of another country where this much out of touch behavior would be tolerated.
When does patience from the pubic become stupidity??
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Ynot 43
Q: “When does patience from the public become stupidity??”
A: When it’s inculcated and sponsored by the state (Like most nations…)
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10 
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Pam @29: According to the BP, the RTAF gave the plane to CP in 2007.
No mention as to who sanctioned this, but clearly a misuse of our taxes. I
know many people who wouldn’t mind being given a plane by RTAF, but I
don’t expect them to be getting one any time soon!
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Perhaps even more so when the people undertake to inculcate one another with the same rationale and lack of logic their leaders expect them to possess.
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Re: Kasit’s statement about “All of the Thai people are worried about what happened.” Yeah, I’m a Thai and I’m worried as hell. I’m worried that I may have to foot the bill for the CMV’s new jet.
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“Yeah, I’m a Thai and I’m worried as hell. I’m worried that I may have to foot the bill for the CMV’s new jet.”
Ditto!
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6 
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While I am enjoying this fun like the rest and happy to note O is back in town to dust down the Green Buddha, I would point out that the description of Germany as civilized, as applied to this issue should not be taken too far.
While the Thai state spends lavishly on its royals the German Federal Republic is spending far more on a military adventure in Afghanistan leading to deaths of thousands.
It even makes the efforts of our Kasit, Prayuth & Co on the Cambodia border seem rather puny.
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I am a bit surprised over Kasit. Wasn’t he invo0lved in international terrorist acts? I read from the media that he was one of the main organizers taking hostages at the int. airport. Perhaps he can be tried by a court in germany as well or send to The Hague? Would be nice!
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16 
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I sort of wanted to say something about this situation. But because I live in Thailand, I can’t .
But I suppose I can repeat what has already been reported.
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I do not know that Thailand third world country have their private plan.The Queen of England cannot afford it.
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9 
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These Thai ‘elites’ should at least be smart enough to realize that the practice of inventing a lie to cover up a series of lies won’t work outside the Land of Lies.
But needless to say, when the dusts settle, the biggest losers as usual will be just ordinary tax payers.
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And while we’re at it…
Maha Vajiralongkorn, heir to the throne, has “hidden” his Mercedes SLK sportscar in a private parking space of a luxury Munich hotel in southern Germany where it is being watched over by 10 bodyguards, the paper said.
http://www.timesofoman.com/innercat.asp?detail=47815
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Interestingly, BangkokPost has been blocking their comment section for all articles related to this airplane issue. The only other articles they are highly likely to block are those related to General Prayuth.
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One of the oddest parts of this odd story is that the alleged true owner of the seized property is not a party to this proceeding. Normally when a creditor seizes property to satisfy a debt, and there’s an issue about whether the debtor really owns the property, the person who claims to be the owner is the one who shows up to complain. The debtor doesn’t care.
So if CP has a colorable claim to own the plane, one would expect his lawyers to be there arguing on his behalf that the plane should be released and not impounded for someone else’s debt. He is apparently not involved in this proceeding though. Maybe he’s content to let the government argue for him. Or maybe he doesn’t think he really owns the plane.
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Thanks JohnH 57 for the update on the rot Benz. From the same link we learn that O was “currently spending his time picking strawberries in the area”. Seems that he is extending the path of Sufficiency Economy to Southern Germany.
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@ Bkk Lawyer: apparently it were the CP’s lawyers who approached the German court, first, but they didn’t get anywhere because the plane’s owner documentation in Thai & English was “unclear”.
http://www.merkur-online.de/lokales/flughafen-muenchen/krimi-prinzen-boeing-jetzt-kommt-aussenminister-1323468.html
Only after CPs lawyers failed to release the plane, Kasit came into play and added insult to injury…
Funny little detail is how all the German papers claim the reason for CPs frequent visits to Munich is to “pluck strawberries”…the man must love strawberries very much
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ynot said: “I do wonder a little about the patience of the Thai public with the ongoing outrageous behavior of O.”
People who knows too much in Thailand have lost all their patience long time ago for such appalling behavior. But what can they do? They can’t even raise a question in their homeland. (That’s why I’m here.) The rest of the Thais, around 3/4 of the population, didn’t even know the Boeing 737 existed.
A sentiment expressed in Paul Simon’s song (American Tune – 1973), in my opinion, could probably describe the situation in Thailand right now quite well. “Half the (Thai) people are stoned and the other half are waiting for the next election. Half the people are drowned and the other half are swimming in the wrong direction.” So sad!
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Does plucking strawberries mean something else to Germans? Is it a metaphor for more interesting things?
BTW, he is/was in Bangkok. Saw him on the royal news doing khao phansa things.
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Does plucking strawberries mean something else to Germans? Is it a metaphor for more interesting things?
@Ralph
I am German and I grew up close to Munich.
I am not aware of any metaphorical connotation a south German might have popping up in his mind if he reads this.
I only read: He is plucking strawberries
I guess the journalists just like the hidden comparison of a high born royal, the case of a xx million (insert price and currency) expensive plane and the fact that at the same time the high born royal does enjoy something very normal like picking strawberries.
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One aspect, which is of course irrelevant for Kasit and state elites, is that the debts of the Thaistate owned to Werner Bau or large parts of it, are to be used for the employees who had lost their jobs.
Another issue is, whether it is still save for German citizen to travel to Thailand for holidays or business. Kasit made it very clear that those Thai who love the crown prince are now strongly against Germans. Might it happen that all Germans in Thailand will face l.m.?
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The strawberry plucking is a most encouraging sign that the sufficiency economy lessons have been taken to heart. However, it would have been an even better example for Thai peasants, if the engines of the S class mercs had not been kept running while the bucolic frolics were taking place. I think bicycles would be more appropriate just like the continental royals.
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HRK @65:
Then Germans need not be too concerned.
Shan @61: Thank you for that information. CP either doesn’t have good lawyers or doesn’t have good evidence that he owns the plane.
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11 
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So many questions……..
Do the Thai Elite think that every is concerned about this?
More so than say, wether the elected party and its leader will be able to actually rule?
That 7 selectors appointed half the senators?
That contracts actually mean something to busniessmen?
That this is one more nail in Thailand’s coffin?
Or the irony in sending a man who forcibly closed an international airport with armed thugs and human sheilds is now seeking the return of an airplane to the same airport?
More or less concern than the families, widows, and orphans of 91 killed because Abhisit wanted to delay an election that he ultimately lost in any case?
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The main reason for the German papers to mix the story about the plane seizure and HRH´s strawberries is that they are usually made by underpaid and in this case probably uninterested people. They just take information from AFP or another news agency and add some background information taken from Wikipedia and google news. If they have a little bit more time they would probably check out Bangkok Post/Nation/Prachatai too – that´s it (journalists quoting journalists – it´s like two blind persons talking about the beauty of the rainbow…). And I fear the situation is not much better anywhere else. Actually it is a deplorable fact to see that journalists and even most “academics” from all over the world rely totally on “information” wrought out of BP/Nation/Prachatai when they deal with Thai affairs.
Today I was asked five or six times about the country of my origin, and nobody reacted coolly or unfriendly, not at all. Probably people have more important things in mind, such as earning a living under harsh conditions, than Thailand´s foreign debts and the mess the RTG has left.
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@#65
It didn’t work with our neighbors. The Thai state have been using hate rhetoric packaged as national defence for like ever, but people on the ground where they actually do the neighboring get along fine in economics, culture, tradition, you know how the border blurs when you get there the people are really similar in a lot of ways. Same thing with the Preah Vihear, the people who actually live in the vinicity of being neighbors are not really eyeing for each other. It’s mainly the airhead bourgeoise that are swept and fascinated because they do not have any real substance in their connection, which are perceived through artifacts like the TV, internet. Sure, there is the possibility of plain fiends disguised as fanatics, but they can not tell a German from a Russian. Then there’s Germans who live in Thailand. But the German peoples that live here are well established in various ways, and actual people that have shared presence together are not that taken by voices from the TV. So, I believe its the poor thais thats gonna take the check for the media playing hate on the Germans, paid in kind with the decrease of German tourists.
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One aspect, which is of course irrelevant for Kasit and state elites, is that the debts of the Thaistate owned to Werner Bau or large parts of it, are to be used for the employees who had lost their jobs.
Another issue is, whether it is still save for German citizen to travel to Thailand for holidays or business. Kasit made it very clear that those Thai who love the crown prince are now strongly against Germans. Might it happen that all Germans in Thailand will face l.m.?
Haha… nice comment. But seriously. I don’t think so. Most of Thailand is not even aware of this according to what i asked my friends around here.
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In Thai, the word ‘strawberry’ is a verb that means ‘to lie’:
“ถ้ามีคนมาพูดกับเราว่า “เธอ อย่าสตรอเบอร์รี่ได้มั้ย”. หลายคนคงเข้าใจความหมายโดยนัยของคำว่า “สตรอเบอร์รี่” คือ การพูดไม่จริง หรือโกหกนั่นเอง”
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BKK Lawyer replied to HRK @65:
“Kasit made it very clear that those Thai who love the crown prince are now strongly against Germans. ”
Then Germans need not be too concerned.
———-
lol I chuckled reading that.
I must say, however, that while my feeling towards him is not ‘love’, but I support him as the next King. I look forward to see Princess Srirasmi as our next Queen. I would love to see those brainwashed royalists prostrate themselves at her feet.
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One basic question here is: what was the plane doing in Germany? If it’s a plane for royal service, then what business did the royal person who used the plane have in Germany? Presumably, it must be some business of importance to Thailand? On the other hand, if the plane was simply used for some private purpose, would that be considered proper? And who, indeed, footed the bills for fuel, service, meals, etc.? If the Thai government paid for all these, a case can be made that the plane is a Thai government issue. My other question is similar to the one already asked by some others here. As a Thai citizen, I would question very hard the desirability for a high-ranking member of the royal family to have a big airplane for personal use. He or she should feel deeply ashamed of such action and must try to atone for it in some very productive way if he expects to be welcome in Thailand from now on.
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Actually (more literally) the English word “strawberry” is VERY similar sounding to the Thai word for “bulls**t”… so much so, that Thais will just say “strawberry” any time they want to say “bulls**t”.
For all intents and purposes, it’s become and “adopted word” in Thai (with a totally different meaning, in this case!)
It’s particularly hilarious that this transparent expression is being used by the German officials (in the know!)
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Strawberry fields forever
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I was skeptical about Pawpcorn’s explanation (#74) so I asked a good Thai friend (a university ajarn) who said that “strawberry” means fake, or something not to be taken seriously. She gave examples of teenage girls who dress up in makeup & hair to look like Korean pop stars ==> not really Korean, so ‘strawberry’… fake.
She said that further you can use “strawberry cheesecake” to denote young girls who doll up for photos to look particularly doll-like. When I explained the idea of “cheesecake” photos in English, she said that “strawberry cheesecake” is definitely ‘doll-like’ rather than ‘sex kitten’.
I had never heard either expression used before.
Interesting.
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Where was foo foo and what was this noble creatures role in all this hoo ha?
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Regarding “strawberry”… ask STUDENTS and they will tell you it means BS, plain and simple. (or in this case… “plane and simple” 555)
Re comment on Foo Foo (or officially Air Force Major)… those were my thoughts too… Where WAS that little rascal, when all the shenanigans were going on?!?
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All people here talking about the “strawberry” thing: the journalist wrote what really happened: The prince WAS picking strawberries.
http://www.merkur-online.de/nachrichten/bayern/prinz-erdbeerfeld-1326505.html?cmp=defrss
Oh, and “Foo Foo” was also there.
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If you look at the photos in the article linked to in post 14, you will see that ACM Foo Foo is alive and well, and was present at the strawberry picking event.
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Ajarn Bill – 76
The notion was invested not long ago, I guess less than couple of years.
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Gut gemacht Deutschland!
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It seems that the Thai government has produced the requisite documents to prove the CP’s ownership of the 737.
‘A document showing the withdrawal of an impounded Boeing 737 from the Defence Ministry’s list of aircraft was among evidence presented to a German court to prove the plane’s ownership, an informed source said yesterday.
Other papers submitted included the Standard Certificate of Airworthiness, the aircraft registration and a permit to use private aircraft, all signed by HRH the Crown Prince Maha Vajiralong-korn when the Royal Thai Air Force presented the plane to him in 2007 for his personal use, the source said.’
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/07/20/national/Court-shown-evidence-on-ownership-30160692.html
Apparently, about three years ago the German government and air aviation authority were so incensed with the CP’s habit of taking his airplane up into German airspace to clock up his pilot’s license airmiles without first obtaining the usual permissions from the relevant authorities, two warplanes were sent up to force him down.
He was also spoken to by someone from the German government and warned not to do this again, otherwise he would no longer be welcome in Germany.
Previously, when warned by Thai embassy staff that he was upsetting people and contravening standard air safety protocols, the CP told his staff to remind the authorities of who he was!
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JohnH – 84.
Interesting post. Do you also have the detail of your original source/s for what you wrote in the last three paragraphs?
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If the Thai Air Force did “give” away a plane woth millions of dollars then qustion becomes by what right? Was this during the military government post the anti-Thaksin coup d’etat? Did O receive stolen property?
Will the other side bring up arguments along these lines to force the Thai government to pay up?
(PS It appears there are 2 persons signing in as Ricky)
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Silly discussion about strawberrys. There is nothing to interpret!
So more facts:
There is now a second plane of the same type in identical colouring next to the impounded one. It probably arrived on Monday (thats what I read in German webboards) but it went so far unreported by the German press. I wonder why ?
And don’t worry too much about a certain high ranking pet. Obviously alive and well. Taken out for a walk as usual. Well dressed and with paw mitts.
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#79
“Regarding ‘strawberry’… ask STUDENTS and they will tell you it means BS, plain and simple.”
I did, and they didn’t. I quote: “Strawberry means bitchy woman or แรด in thai . 5555″
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Be interesting to see how (or if?) the Thai press covers this:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/20/germany-thai-plane-idUSLDE76J0F420110720
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Well worth following ThanongK’s tweets at the moment. I think he might actually be going to melt down. A sample:
เรากำลังรบกับศัตรูที่มองไม่เห็น
ถ้าคนไทยคิดว่าสามเรื่องนี้ไม่สัมพันธ์กัน เป็นเรื่องบังเอิญ เป็นเรื่องล้อเล่น ก็เตรียมตัวสิ้นชาติได้
Roughly: “We now are fighting an invisible enemy.
If the Thais think these events are unconnected – are coincidences – they may as well prepare themselves for the demise of the nation.”
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JohnW
Bangkok Post cannot restrain their glee as they report the release of the Strawberry Picker’s plane:
Published: 20/07/2011 at 07:27 PM
Online news:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/247975/royal-jet-released
No mention in their report that it may be the result of an illegal gift by an illegitimate government.
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The ‘invisible enemy’? Three invisibles, which come to mind, are honesty, integrity and incorruptibility. As sure as eggs is eggs, a combined attack from these subversive notions would destroy Thailand as we know it overnight.
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JohnH @84 reports
In fact, the requisite documents were not produced: the court was still unconvinced. And not surprising. Nothing listed here establishes ownership, let alone a transfer of ownership from the RTAF to the CP.
The sworn statement of the director of Civil Aviation is one of the most laughable pieces of proof (but I bet the director wasn’t laughing or smiling when his boss handed him the statement and said ‘sign this’). How would he know who owns the plane? He could swear to the authenticity of a document issued by the Aviation department, but can’t swear to the underlying transactions. It’s like having the head of the Motor Vehicle department swear that I own my car.
Assuming the RTAF previously owned the plane (which no one seems to dispute), they need to present a document showing the transfer of ownership from the RTAF to the CP (signed by an RTAF official who was authorized to transfer ownership of an airplane).
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well check this…. it is a german source.
Mr. Schneider was suing for 30 mio Euro. This has accumulated druing the years no 40 mio Euro. So now for the plane he got a breach of 20 mio.
But now there is another – similar – plane in Munich which obviously doesn’t belong to the CP but to the government.
Here is the German story: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/freising/konfiszierte-boeing-frei-aber-raetsel-um-zweites-thai-flugzeug-am-muenchner-flughafen-1.1122454-2
Basically, for everybody who doesn’t understand German: The question is whether Schneider will abduct this second plane as well to make sure he gets the other 50 %….
We’ll see… hehe …. I think the government of germany that was diplomatically struck by surprise due to the actions of Schneider will not let him do this… again…
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A kind of response to BKK lawyer # 93
The 737 was a ‘gift’ to the CP. It’s a simple as that. Such gifts would demonstrate loyalty (fealty?) and, hopefully, leverage patronage and protection from the CP.
I’m also informed that on his frequent trips abroad, all costs are borne by Thai Air.
I’m also lead to believe that a recent inspection of Thai Air accounts by the Auditor General’s office revealed an unaccounted for deficit of some 200 milllion Baht. On pursuing this interesting discrepancy, the CP was mentioned, and the audit team were advised not to raise any more questions on the matter.
This fiasco begs another question: How many other ‘gifts’ have been graciously bestowed on the CP by the military and, indeed, other parties?
Anyway, the BP has an update here:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/247992/court-wants-b846m-to-release-royal-jet
And the comments section is open! Here are two.
Somchai
Discussion 1 : 21/07/2011 at 12:45 AM1
‘Several reports that Robert Amsterdam is involved. Will he get comission from the bank guarantee or a bonus from the fugitive?’
SteveCM
Discussion 3 : 21/07/2011 at 02:43 AM3
‘No, Somchai (#1), not “several reports” – just one internet rumour (since explicitly & categorically denied by Robert Amsterdam). Getting a bit desperate these days, aren’t you?’
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#95 JohnH
” Such gifts would demonstrate loyalty (fealty?) and, hopefully, leverage patronage and protection from the CP.”
This implies that the CP wields great power . . . does he?
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Note on Initials. CP is the trademark of Thailand’s biggest agribusiness and one should be careful not to risk defaming CP and perhaps being drowned in insecticide.
BP are the initials of Thailands most thorough and reliable political blogster Bangkok Pundit, so when I see a reference to BP I get excited that I am apout to read something trustworthy and NOT one rung above the dismal level of reporting of The Nation.
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johninbkk # 96
Power through fear, I fear.
Ricky # 97 You are right, and it is something I have thought about when posting.
Can anyone suggest any alternatives?
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The Thai media have put on a brave face and done their best to present the court’s latest ruling as a victory for Thailand but they are having a hard time explaining why the court demanded the 20 million euros bank guarantee, if it really found the new ownership documents to be credible. They have also been too coy thus far to even mention the surprise appearance of the plane’s twin.
Since the court said the ownership should be defined according to Thai law, this should be a relatively easy task. There is plenty of Thai legislation that could be helpful here, for example the Foreign Business Act and the Land Code with its accompanying ministerial regulations. In order to establish the Thai nationality of individuals or companies, Commerce Ministry and Land Department officials are required to follow the money trail and find out who paid for the shares and/or land in question. Thus some who simply signs ownership documents but doesn’t pay for the asset in question is regarded as a nominee and not the real owner.
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Instead of CP I suggest using the person’s nickname “O”.
For the Bangkok Post, why not just “the Post” just as New Yorkers do when referring to their local rag.
There should be no confusion with the newly established ChiangMai Post which is yet to have an internet presence.
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Comment section has now been removed from the Bangkok Post.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/247992/court-wants-b846m-to-release-royal-jet
Looks like a sub ed. slipped up (Or maybe not)
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johninbkk (96). Yes, Vajiralongkorn wields great power, though it is derived entirely from the political capital accumulated by his father. He seems to be in competition with his mother for the principal role in dissipating it: the one in buying pleasure for himself, and the other by inflicting pain and misery on her country.
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c101
“Comment section has now been removed from the Bangkok Post.”
Judging by the e-mail notifications* of further comments after mine, there were another eight published before all the comments were removed. I suspect that at least one slipped through that was too near or beyond the mark. Frankly, given the context, I was surprised that the Post even opened the article to comments in the first place. As others have noted, they seem (lately) to operate a blanket “no comments” policy on anything to do with Prayuth, for example.
* They don’t include the content.
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Back to nearly square one, it seems…..
BANGKOK, July 21, 2011 (AFP) – Thailand’s foreign minister on Thursday ruled out paying a multi-million dollar bank guarantee to secure the release of the Thai crown prince’s jet, which has been impounded in Germany.
The decision not to fork out the 20 million euros ($28 million) ordered by a German court in exchange for Maha Vajiralongkorn’s Boeing 737 adds a further twist to an uncomfortable episode that has threatened ties between the nations.
“We are confident that the aircraft belongs to the crown prince. He is not involved with this case and the documents are very solid, so there is no need to pay the guarantee of 20 million euros,” said Thai Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya.
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Kasit has now announced the Thailand government will not put up the 20 million Euro gurantee/bond to free the captive 737 per link below. In addition the delegation/entourage of high Thai government officials travelling to and from Germany to deal with this case keeps increasing in numbers.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/248128/kasit-no-guarantee-deposit-for-the-release-of-royal-jet
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The German business community is very closely following the development in this case…. An incident a couple of years ago: a Thai court reversed a ruling that would have obliged the state enterprise ETA (Expressway and Rapid Transit Authority of Thailand) “to pay a Thai-German construction company 6.2 billion baht (172 million dollars)”. The ruling was that then governor of ETA Siwa Charoenphan had unlawfully signed the contract to build the expressway so the ETA was not bound to pay any compensation resulting from the contract. … Go figure yourself:
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Thai_court_reverses_compensation_ve_02152007.html
And then an interesting update via AFP:
Thailand rules out paying to free prince’s plane
BANGKOK, July 21, 2011 (AFP) – Thailand’s foreign minister on Thursday ruled out paying a multi-million dollar bank guarantee to secure the release of the Thai crown prince’s jet, which has been impounded in Germany.
The decision not to fork out the 20 million euros ($28 million) ordered by a German court in exchange for Maha Vajiralongkorn’s Boeing 737 adds a further twist to an uncomfortable episode that has threatened ties between the nations.
“We are confident that the aircraft belongs to the crown prince. He is not involved with this case and the documents are very solid, so there is no need to pay the guarantee of 20 million euros,” said Thai Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya. (…)
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#102 R.N.
Perhaps a silly question but . . . how does he have any power? Do people just do what he says for nothing? What does CP have that people want that he can give? I can’t see him as someone who has any really influence over anyone else. Not even when he goes from CP to become CK. He doesn’t even seem to want to be involved. The current CK gains his power from the deep love/respect/fanaticism of his followers . . . but for the CP?
(no, not Calvin Klein lol)
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#103 SteveCM
There is a bug in the BangkokPost comment system that lets you view all posts that haven’t been deleted (including those that haven’t been approved, yet). It continues to show comments for quite a while after the comments are blocked, too (perhaps because of caching?).
The secret is to go to the mobile version of the site:
http://m.bangkokpost.com/
I’ve never seen anyone post anything ‘dangerous’ to the airplane articles . . . perhaps I missed them, or perhaps BP didn’t want to take a chance on it but the censor was slow . . .
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The Thai government has now presented the best evidence yet on the ownership of the 737. AFP reports today (21 July):
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ib8YHJAEmDQ2uFMxO4r6FcoMQRCg?docId=CNG.454ffc5a0460a3378f12993e4765f06d.521
In other words, the government is not sufficiently convinced by its own “evidence” to put its money at risk. Its refusal to post the guarantee speaks louder than any words.
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JohnH @95: “The 737 was a ‘gift’ to the CP. It’s a simple as that.”
A transfer by gift would still have to be reflected in documents showing the transfer of ownership. Use of such documents is not limited to transfers by sale.
The necessity for such documents is amply demonstrated by the present dispute. Such documents are necessary in any event to establish rights and responsibilities regarding the plane. For example, if there were an accident, who has liability? And who is entitled to the insurance proceeds for damage to the plane?
You don’t just give away (or sell) a 20-million-euro aircraft without carefully documenting the new ownership. A lack of documentation suggests there was no gift, no sale, no transfer.
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What happened to that old adage about respect for courts? If Thailand is so enamored with the principle of justice being automatic with court decisions, it should be more than glad to pay the surety.
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Today, the BP has this:
‘Mr Supoj (transport permanent secretary( said the ministry has fresh evidence to show the ruling is distorted and needs to be reviewed.According to Mr Supoj, Walter Bau has ties with Thai nationals who might have meddled with the case.’
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/248178/govt-refuses-to-pay-surety-for-royal-jet
The usual attempts to deny responsibility, or are things starting to get even murkier?
And I wonder if this has anything to do with Somchai’s post in the BP? (comments since closed/ deleted) – here’s a reminder from my previous post #95
Discussion 1 : 21/07/2011 at 12:45 AM1
‘Several reports that Robert Amsterdam is involved. Will he get comission from the bank guarantee or a bonus from the fugitive?
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I notice the BKK Post now has a link to (Gasp!) Wikileaks. After excitedly pressing said link I got access to some real estate ads and some Cambodian wikileaks gossip about the nefarious Hun Sen saying nothing too controversial about border disputes.
Not exactly competition for “The Guardian” yet then?
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johninbkk (108). Kasit has sacrificed the reputation of his country (or what was left of it) in the whole diplomatic community by making ugly threats to Germany. He has also sacrificed the personal reputation of one who rises to become his country’s chief representative to the world. Rather than frighten the German Government, he has made a complete goose of himself for all the world to laugh at. He has shown himself to be oblivious to the workings of genuine justice, and absolutely lost outside his native milieu of thuggery, grovelling, and corruption. All for what? To demonstrate his loyalty to the throne and its future occupant. Such is the power of Vajiralongkorn and the Thai monarchy. It is the power to destroy, but power nonetheless.
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Unfortunately I am no scholar of German, so have had to rely on Google Translate for this account of the strawberry picking. But I often think Google Translate is much more fun!
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Der Prinz und die Currywurst!!!!
Here is another story from the German press, again via Google Translate. It’s a bit rough but readers should be able to get the gist. If any German-speaking readers of New Mandala can provide a summary, we would all be very grateful.
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Images of the very private and low-key strawberry picking expedition are available here. Questions have been raised about the authenticity of this photo of one of the members of the strawberry picking party.
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Can Portman #99 or anyone else clarify this comment:
“They have also been too coy thus far to even mention the surprise appearance of the plane’s twin.”
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First:
Re: Our Beloved Andrew W. #115-116
For them not to pay the whole bill reminds me of the scene in Goodfellows with Robert Di Nero and Joe Pepcii. The restaurant owner presents Joe Pepsi with a bill and he gets insulted and hits the owner over the head with a wine bottle.
The scene is meant to portray arrogance and contempt that the Goodfellows (mafia) have for other people.
Second:
Re: R. N. England #114.
Here is today’s comment from our beloved Bangkok Pundit.,
http://asiancorrespondent.com/author/bangkokpundit/
BP: Was struck when finally got a chance to catch up on the news and read what Kasit said. Was awestruck that he couldn’t separate the German liquidator from the German government, but at least Abhisit indirectly set him straight….
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Perhaps the most telling line in Andrew’s version of “Der prinz und der currywurst” was:
“An employee of the Crown Prince assured him that the expenses would be taken for granted.”
A case of absolutely nothing getting lost in translation.
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From BangkokPost:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/248371/crown-prince-urges-no-payment
“His Royal Highness has been concerned about Thai people’s feelings which may be misled over the issue into thinking that he violated aviation rules,” said Attorney-General Chulasingh Vasantasingh at a press conference yesterday.
“[I] would like the Thai people to understand the Crown Prince did not commit any violations and he isn’t involved in the legal fight between the government and German firm,” he said.
Mr Chulasingh said the Crown Prince suggested the government not pay the 20 million euros for the return of his aircraft even though the government was ready to do so. This is because the Crown Prince’s jet has noting to do with the government’s legal case.
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Stuart,
Google Translate is lost if you do not understand the source language.
“An employee of the Crown Prince assured him that the expenses would be taken for granted.”
It was lost in translation. Correct is:
“An employee of the crown prince assured him that the expenses would be taken care of.”
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A link to an intersting post on the plane affair form Political Prisoners Thailand blog:
http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2011/07/23/stranger-and-stranger-on-the-plane/
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Andrew & Nik : How about getting some ” high-quality comments that make original contributions to discussion ” .
For days we have been seeing trivia about a person who is responsible for the suffering of over 100 people in dreadful conditions in Thai jails – just because they speak the truth.
Compare the comments with Andrew Spooner’s :
“Let’s hope Amnesty have both the courage and the principles to formally campaign for her release and that the incoming Pheu Thai government does the right thing and releases all 112 lese majeste prisoners immediately. If anyone deserves an amnesty, it is them.”
http://asiancorrespondent.com/60695/an-interview-with-da-torpedo-thailand%E2%80%99s-lady-in-the-iron-mask/
And while on this subject where is the network in Thailand preparing to go on the streets to demand what Andrew s. calls for?
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It might be prudent to add that Google Translate is lost even if you do understand the source language. I find it good only for single word translations to check nuances, or overall a paragraph or passage that might have words in it that Google occasionally replaces with a better choice for the context, or at least throws out a different word that might ring a better bell.
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Donatella Toddawally
It’s called I-R-O-N-Y. Clearly, lost on some people.
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#122
New Mandala is lost if you do not understand irony.
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Donnatella (c.122), I think you may have missed the ironic inflection in Stuart’s comment. Sometimes a mistranslation may inadvertently get closer to the truth of what actually happened than a correct translation.
And on Ricky’s point (c.124) about people in Thai jails for the crime of thinking and speaking their thoughts, I am extremely pleased that the Bangkok Post has, for the first time in a very long time, perhaps the first time ever, seen fit to inform us about the condition of one of these prisoners. Thank you, Achara Ashayagachat, you redeem something of my very diminished faith in Thai journalism. May it continue.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/248319/daranee-release-democracy-protectors
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Sounds like Junior is bucking for a new plane.
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Bangkok Post business section today make a reasonable attempt to lay out the background to the plane affair.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/aviation/248496/how-the-turbulence-began
But of course with a bias that assumes that any statement by government officials outweighs all documentary evidence to the contrary.
And at the end a candid statement from a Thai lawyer, “arbitration is a difficult way to settle contractual disputes since the government often doesn’t honour the arbitration rulings”
And not just contractual disputes, applies to border disputes also…..
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erewhon @118: re “the surprise appearance of the plane’s twin” noted @99: Apparently a second Thai 737 recently appeared at the Munich airport, parked next to the impounded 737.
Anyone know about the second 737? A temporary replacement for the CP to use? Subject to impoundment? Does Thailand claim it has diplomatic immunity?
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In case folk are wondering why we are watching the reputation of Thailand sink lower every day this may be part of the answer:
Ten years ago in a Bangkok Bar I met an American academic who bragged about how he wrote the 1997 Thai Constitution.
True or false I know not, but the present version could well have been written by the US State Department for the Thai military.
In the US the President is elected in November but does not take office until January. Plenty of time for the out going president to get up to tricks like pardoning favorite criminals, veto-ing UN Security Council resolutions etc. And as an American friend said to me “The founding Fathers did not trust the people to vote so they inserted an electoral college of ‘wise men’ to choose the president”.
How similar is Thailand in 2011 with the outgoing Foreign Minister causing maximum embarrasment and our “Election Commission” presiding over the formation of a new parliament.
How different the British system where the day after the vote, a defeated Prime Minister concedes defeat and visits the King to tender his resignation and advise the monarch to invite the leader of the winning party to form a government.
This is how things are done in Australia and at the 1972 election which saw Labor defeat the conservative Liberals who had been in power for 23 years, a government of two was sworn in on the Monday after the Saturday election. Prime Minister Edward Gough Whitlam and his deputy Lance Barnard then governed the country for two weeks as the final numbers in the parliament were decided to allow the Labor caucus to elect a full ministry.
In those two weeks the government issued a host of decrees which changed the country literally over night. One of the first was to order the release from jail the brave young men who had refused to be drafted to fight in the American genocidal war against VietNam.
How different is Thailand with Prime Minister Abhisit conceding defeat but continuing to govern and continuing to imprison political dissenters.
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Thai prince’s second jet faces impounding: report
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCATRE76N1CW20110724
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Two wrongs don’t make a right. The underhanded actions taken by Bau, and the backwater local German Court, are as unjust as any debt payment stalling by the Thais.
By seizing the plane, a week before the Appeal Court case in the US convenes, the German liquidators are subverting this independent, international legal proceeding. Furthermore, they shift the “legal issue” from the justness of the German ‘debt claim’ to that of private verses Thai Government ownership of the questionably seized plane.
Well, it looks like the German ‘tricky’ attempt to escape the Appeal Court’s determination, as to whether the Thai Government owes the Germans anything, might have backed fired.
If the Thai Government files suit against Bau for falsely filing a Failure to Pay Charge, then there’ll surely be egg on German faces.
The Thai attorney’s logic, points out that – until the US Court appeal is settled, Thailand has not failed to pay their debt. The Appeal Court has not yet ruled that the debt is actually owed. So how can charges of failure to pay an ‘unresolved debt claim’ be legitimately filed in the German Court?
Personally, if I were the Thais, I would sue the German Court, too. I am not using hyperbole when I say they appear quite “corrupt”.
There is no way, this German Court could have examined the original International Court finding against the Thais, and not see that that the ‘debt claim’ was still being challenged in the Appeal Court. Therefore there is no way the backwater German Court could legally seize THE plane for debt due, when debt was not legally established.
Therefore this German Courts proceedings appear to me to be quite tainted, to say the least.
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Sam @134:
Sorry, but you’re mistaken on a number of key points.
The Thai govt lost the arbitration, and the arbitration award has been entered as a judgment in U.S. federal court. The judgment is immediately enforceable, even though the Thai government has appealed. The appeal does not prevent Bau from taking all steps to enforce his judgment — including levying on assets like the airplane. If the Thai government wants to obtain a stay to prevent enforcement pending the appeal, it must file a motion to ask for that — though it’s not likely to be granted.
Moving to enforce the judgment is not ‘subverting’ the process; it is carrying out the process.
I don’t know German law, but I seriously doubt that the liquidator can be held liable for pursuing an authorized process of impounding an asset for the purpose of enforcing a judgment. Such actions are usually privileged and immune against civil liability. If he had no basis for believing the asset belonged to Thailand, then he could be liable for abuse of process, but as we’ve seen, it is far from clear that Thailand does not own the asset. Again, the debt most certainly has been legally established, and can be enforced unless and until the U.S. court orders otherwise.
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All of this back and forth re. who is really corrupt and who is serving the interests of whom is interesting but does not settle the legality issues, of course. That a German court made a decision and ordered an aircraft seized does not make the decision wrong because it was a “backwater”court. I suspect that many professionals in the legal field are also weighing the rights and wrongs, and are filing claim and counter-claim. The difference between Thai and non-Thai machinations is not one of who is more corrupt but rather who is in control. I place my faith in those who weigh rather than pretend, in those who know facts and are not afraid to express them than in those who are afraid of others expressing facts.
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Many times irate but polite Thais have resorted to criminal rather than civil options to pay back or put a wrench in the works. BKK lawyer – any chance or probability of this happening?
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Thank You BKK lawyer. It is nice to have a lawyer’s view.
Three thoughts:
1. Perhaps I have a ‘correction’ for you as well.
I have read that the Germans actually filed the Appeal, not the Thai Government, as you wrote.
I could not make sense as to motive. I assumed that it was German maneuvering to preemptively Appeal to gain some legal advantage before the Thai Government filed an Appeal. (?)
2. To this non-attorney, the legal process you lay out, if it works exactly as you describe, could be inherently unfair, in this case, to the Thais.
To Whit:
Suppose the Germans are successful in seizing Thai Government Property and selling it, as you say they legally can do. Then suppose the Thai Government wins the Appeal.
Then legally what would the Thai have to do to get back their asset?
Would the Thais have to sue the Germans to regain their asset value? Would a whole new round of suits begin? Ugh! What a legal mess would result.
The legal logic you describe would seems to me to be illogical legally. The Thais would be punished for having been right all along. And, this injustice would be built into your described justice procedures!
3. If you are legally correct as you write, then why does Thailand’s head prosecutor, Attorney General Julasing Wasantasing, who is also an attorney — disagree with you?
Why is the Attorney General quoted at
http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/241834.html
as declaring he will sue the German company Bau, as ‘it was not proper for the company to claim that Thailand had failed to pay damages’, as the Appeals Court had not ruled on if damages are owed?
Is he and his team mistaken about the law, as you describe it?
Again, I am not an attorney, so I am stuck with relying on legal authority for the ins and outs of this legal struggle. As it is, however, I am now faced with conflicting legal views.
So I respectfully stand by my original view, until I’m convinced the legal facts are otherwise.
Again, thank you for the thoughtful reply. I am open for any further considerations.
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If ownership of the plane was transferred at the time the government says it was, then it is curious that they are having such a hard time producing credible documentary evidence. It seems quite likely that the plane was actually presented to the CP for his personal use without a transfer of ownership. It is hard to imagine any one in the air force having the signing power to give away a plane as a gift and under normal circumstances it would make more sense sense that the transfer should technically be a loan that wouldn’t require higher approval. Thus the air force could more easily cover the cost of maintenance and just replace it with a new “loaner” in time. I imagine that the air force handled the gifting of the CP’s F15 in this way. It is hard to imagine an advanced fighter bomber being owned by a private indivual.
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I think both sides are right to their points. Thai government correctly said that the airplane is belonged to HRH Crown Prince, and Walter AG countered that it belonged to Thai government. We all in Thai knows it by heart that it is the Crown Prince’s, but Walter AG follows the document which is aviation registries –stating that it belongs to Thai Government.
Why the aviation registries states that it is Thai government? Because if you show it is personal property, the taxes and charges will be very high. On the other hand, if you register as government property, the charges will become much cheaper.
Whose false? Nobody false? Or trying to get away the charges?
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Your sentiments are laudable, but “We all in Thai knows it by heart that it is the Crown Prince’s” is certainly inaccurate as an assumption. Many Thai people and others in Thailand are convinced of the opposite, and they talk to one another about it. There are two sides, yes. Let the lawyers and courts, and hopefully non-Thai justice, decide what is fact and just.
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This whole issue should be put into perspective again. As Kasit said, it has become such a prominent issue only due to the involvement of monarchy. Obviously, it is difficult for Kasit and a few others to understand that here we have a “juridical” not a monarchic court case that should be cleared based on existing legal (not political or status) regulation.
There seems to be some more confusion. It is not, as Sam indicates, a case of Germans against Thais, but a company registered in Germany (which does not even have to be a German company!) applying international law against the Thai state for a debt claim. Though we have a Thai-state, one should not confuse population with political system! Sam might explain as well what is meant by “backwater court”. As far as I understand the German legal system, the courts, regardless of their location within Germany, have to apply the same laws. May be this is different in Thailand, depending on what courts are involved. If the representatives of the Thai state could easily prove ownership of the plane, then all would have been set already! It is quite simple: just show legally valid documents that prove ownership to this “backwater” court. May be in Thailand, if a high ranking person says so, no legal documents and regulations are needed.
What I don’t understand is why the current Thai government (not the Thais or the Thai state) tries so hard to keep this case (not paying debts, not being able to prove ownership, etc.) in the international news. Is this a new kind of “amazing Thailand” campaign?
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Sam @138. To respond to your three points:
1. The Germans did not file the appeal. (Where did you read this?) You can see the notice of appeal filed by Thailand on the public docket of the case, Schneider v. Kingdom of Thailand, case no. 10-cv-02729, U.S. District Court, Southern District of New York.
2. You ask how the aircraft owner would recover the airplane if the Thai government wins the appeal. The plane has only been impounded – its status frozen – not sold. That is a long way off. The creditor must give a prescribed notice to the debtor and the public before selling it. That allows an interval of time in which the debtor can redeem the property or seek a stay to postpone a sale pending the outcome of the appeal (or a third party can try to prove the property does not belong to the debtor). The process is designed to protect all parties’ rights. It is not an unfair game, as you surmise. The process operates routinely, day in and day out, in legal systems around the world, for creditors and debtors and judgments of all sizes.
3. The attorney general is quoted as saying Thailand will sue the German creditor. I can’t say that is incorrect: Thailand may or may not carry out its threat to sue. I have only said that Thailand probably would lose such a suit. Maybe such a suit would fly in Thailand, but it would not fly in most other countries (as many grounds for suing in Thailand would not fly in many countries).
As for the AG’s reason for suing—that it was not proper to say that Thailand had failed to pay damages as the case is still on appeal—that is indeed incorrect, as I explained in my original comment on this issue. The judgment is due and immediately enforceable, and the appeal does not change that, unless Thailand seeks and obtains a stay of enforcement, which it has not done, for whatever reason.
Why would Thailand sue anyway? According to the Thai position, the Germans have not impounded Thailand’s property. If anyone would sue, it would be the CP, who claims ownership of the seized airplane.
I hope my explanations are helpful.
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Frank @137: I don’t see any grounds for seeking criminal charges for the impoundment — was that your question?
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http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/248740/pm-2nd-jet-can-t-be-impounded
Apparently, the CP owns two planes.
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Having Herr Bau declared persona non grata in Thailand might be held to be a contempt of court – an attempt to interfere with and influence the court’s judgment be putting pressure on a litigant or witness. The penalty in English law is a fine or imprisonment.
But I would like to shift the debate back to the original court action – why has a Thai government agency not paid a debt after 20 years? After all, the road was built, or wasn’t it?
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Bkk Lawyer #144:
My question was not clear, apologies.
I believe you answered it, however, in saying that you did not see any grounds for criminal charges for the impounding.
Thank you.
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Thai law is one thing, Thai unwillingness to meet its obligations in a general sense quite another.
In a civil damages case I have personal experience with, a Thai woman was sued for civil damages in defamation. Found guilty in court of first instance, she appealed. Upheld in Appellate, she appealed to the Supreme Court. This took from 2005-2010! As each succeeding level of court appearance requires a deposit, the woman appealed to Supreme Court officials that she did not have the money so would they waive the requirement in her case? So in effect she is appealing to be able to appeal!
The woman has publicly declared herself to be owner of a community radio station, has a vehicle and home and other “connections.” Yet she claims not to have any money, even to file an appeal.
The message is that just like bus drivers who suddenly disappear after crashing and killing someone, other Thais just won’t reconcile themselves to the principle that behavior, consequences, responsibility and restitution are all part of the package in dealing with others. It is almost second nature for Thais not to pay anyone anything for anything because everyone else should just accept the idea that they can’t afford to pay and let’s get on with life. Those that can easily afford to pay usually give a pittance. This is one of the ways that Thai culture has decimated Buddhism and justice…let alone the principles of credibility and honor.
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BKK lawyer, once again, Thank You for your legal insights.
1. Re your “The Germans did not file the appeal.” (Where did you read this?)
The Bangkok Pundit (BP) wrote it:
“BP: On Thani saying that Thailand was appealing in New York, BP went googling and found out that Walter Bau (“WB”) decided to take the matter to the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York to seek confirmation of the arbitration award and to enforce it (ie get their money).”
http://asiancorrespondent.com/59962/liquidator-seizes-royal-thai-air-force-plane-in-munich-an-update/
The confusing here seems to be in BP’s denying that the Thais filed the appeal, by pointing to Bau initiating the action in the Arbitration Confirmation stage. Then BP later grants that the Thais have indeed filed an appeal but in a different court, noting “Thailand appealed to the U.S. Court of Appeals, Second Circuit on April 13, 2011 which scheduled (PDF) a pre-trial argument conference in the above-referenced appeal for Wednesday, June 1, 2011 at 3.30pm.”
2. Again, despite your informed explanations as to the workings of the legal process, I fail to see “fairness” in your legal interpretation. It would allow Bau to heap costs on the Thais, while the Thais are in Appeal of that ruling. An Appeal, which one concludes was accepted by a US Appeals Court, as presumably the Appeals Court found the Thai grounds for the Appeal to worthy and not frivolous.
To demonstrate this point, let’s say THE plane is RTAF. The airport fees for setting there impounded during a 2 year Appeal process could literally run into a million or more dollars. Then the loss of use of that plane, and the cost of replacement, be it commercial or otherwise, would be substantial. Finally, the physical damage to a plane setting unused for 2 years would be likewise extremely costly to restore.
Yet, if we accept your legal interpretation, and if the Thais win their appeal, they are stuck with these huge costs and losses of use, despite the fact that Bau’s debt claim is ruled as groundless and the impoundment null and void.
Allowing Bau to do this seems to be allowing legal harassment and personal legal punishment. Furthermore, it allows Bau to use the law, as you describe it, to discourage and prevent a defendant from pursuing their legal rights, by burdening them with extraneous costs.
Again, with all due respect, I find it unreasonable that an Appeals proceeding would not automatically forestall such abuses.
3. Finally re your: “Why would Thailand sue anyway? According to the Thai position, the Germans have not impounded Thailand’s property. If anyone would sue, it would be the CP, who claims ownership of the seized airplane.”
The suit filed by the German liquidator in the German Court — is against the Thai Government, not the CP. The Thais say this suit falsely claims:
1. The Thai Government owes the German company court awarded debt.
2. And, that the Thai Government has failed to pay the court awarded debt.
While you, BKK lawyer, are saying the Thais would lose such a case, nevertheless, this is why the Thai Government is suing, and not the CP.
HRK’s asks, “Sam might explain as well what is meant by “backwater court”.
Connected litigants ‘shop’ for sympathetic Court venues to file their claims and charges. The Viktor Bout case generated whole articles on how the Feds ‘shopped’ for a US Court that would maximize their advantages.
Bau did not take this highly charged “diplomatically sensitive and international” case to an appropriately experienced Berlin or Munich court. Instead, Bau sought out a “backwater” local German court. This would be comparable to the Thais responding in some related action by going through a local court in Nawwatiwat.
By calling this like it is, a “backwater court,” it is this obvious ploy that I am pointing to.
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Sam @149: The free consultation is nearing an end. I will shortly start charging you my hourly fee. Where shall I send the invoice?
1. Who filed what: FIRST the Germans filed an arbitration claim against Thailand, to recover what they claimed Thailand owed on the road project. Thailand lost the arbitration; the arbitrator rendered a multi-million dollar award against Thailand. SECOND, the Germans filed a petition to confirm the award (i.e., convert it to a court judgment) in the U.S. District Court in New York. That’s the proceeding that BP was referring to. (It was not an appeal of the arbitration award.) The court granted the petition and entered a judgment against Thailand. That is the judgment that the Germans are now moving to enforce and execute on. THIRD, Thailand appealed the judgment to the U.S. court of appeals.
Appealing certain types of judgments automatically stays (puts on hold) enforcement of the judgment. In this case, a simple judgment requiring payment of money, a stay is not automatic when the loser files an appeal. The loser has to ask the court to order a stay. For whatever reason, Thailand has so far not done that.
By the way, as the appealing party, Thailand must file the first brief. When I last looked at the court docket, the brief was due today (26 July).
You are not correct that the court of appeals has found Thailand’s appeal to be “worthy”. The court has probably quickly reviewed the file and determined that the appeal is not completely frivolous (e.g., it was filed on time, it is the type of judgment that may be appealed, etc.), but otherwise the court will not consider the merits of the appeal until the parties have filed their briefs.
2. If Thailand wins the appeal, I expect that it may be able to recover much, if not all, of certain costs of the litigation. That would include costs it incurs to protect its assets against impoundment. So you are not correct that the impoundment is grossly unfair to Thailand. And again, Thailand can try to avoid these costs by asking the court to stay enforcement of the judgment. Thailand’s hands are not tied in this case.
Again, this is all very routine in the world of judgment-collection. The process is designed to protect rights on both sides.
If Thailand really does not own the airplane, then what costs or damages will it incur? The owner of the plane will be the one to incur costs.
3. I think you’re confused on this point. I asked why Thailand would threaten to sue the Germans for impounding the airplane, when Thailand claims it does not own the plane. What is the damage to Thailand if the Germans mistakenly impound someone else’s property? If the CP owns the plane, then he–not Thailand–is the one with an interest to protect. But, you say, the CP is not a party to the original lawsuit. That’s irrelevant: the CP’s property has been impounded, so he’s a party to any proceeding to get it back.
I don’t know how Walter Bau chose the court, or if he even did. Getting a writ to execute on property is very routine, and it’s possible it did not require a judge to approve — just a paper stamped by the court clerk and then delivered by local law enforcement to the airport. It’s not rocket science, even for a big asset. Airplanes are impounded all the time around the world.
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Sam: your third point isn’t making legal sense for me. If the plane is privately owned and has been seized in the belief that it is state property, then surely the alleged owner would sue or take some action for the return of his alleged property?
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The Thai media have been forced to mention the existence of the other identical plane in Munich in response to the Walter Bau administrator’s assertion that he was considering getting the twin impounded to cover the balance of the Thai government’s unpaid debt. Even though the plane’s arrival was reported in German media last week and the adminstrator’s comment was several days old, Thai media only mentioned its existence today in the context of reporting Abhisit’s comments that there were no legal grounds to impound the second plane. In the event that the administrator and the German court fail to concur with Abhisit’s legal analysis and the second plane is impounded regardless, it will be interesting to see how long it takes for a triplet to appear in Munich and whether such an event would be regarded as in any way newsworthy by the Thai media.
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The German Embassy is now openly putting the screws on Thailand:
http://www.tannetwork.tv/tan/ViewData.aspx?DataID=1046177
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I am not sure that Bavarians would agree with Sam’s assessment of the Landshut court as a “backwater court”. Landshut is the capital of the administrative region of Lower Bavaria and is located only 40 km from Franz Josef Strauss Airport where the plane is impounded. As such the court no doubt has extensive experience of cases relating to the airport. The airport is not located within the munipalities of either Munich or Berlin. So why would it have been more appropriate for courts in those cities to hear the case?
Remember that Suwannabhumi Airport is in Samut Prakarn province, not in the Bangkok Metropolis. Thus a similar situation might arise, if a foreign plane were to be impounded there, as a “backwater” Samut Prakarn court might hear the case. In policing terms, the tiny hick police station of Rajathewa has jurisdiction there, although some have argued that it should be made part of the Bangkok Metropolitan police jurisdiction.
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BKK lawyer, quick question for you, and as this is my first one I would hope you consider this part of your ‘free consultation.’ Anyway, my question is: what is to keep the Thai government from–after the fact–simply create a document of transfer of ownership? In other words, can’t the Thai government have the appropriate official sign a document transferring ownership of the airplane and then date it such that it matches with their previous statements about when the transfer of ownership took place?
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BKK lawyer, Fee payment — lunch on me, near Asoke and Sukhumvit, any weekday, ask webmaster for my email.
Briefly,
1. Most of your reply as to ‘who, did what, when’ from BP is restating what I sent you.
—Assuming you are correct, you make a powerful point about the puzzle of Thailand’s failing to simply file a stay of judgment re their lost suit.
2. All you state here, you’ve nicely stated before. Unanswered is my question as to “fairness” re the cost in time, money and ever-more litigation a winning Thailand must go through in order to recover “…much, if not all, of certain costs of the litigation…”
3. I fear you misunderstood, “Why” the Thais say they are going to sue the Germans. It is not to liberate THE plane. It is to establish that the German suit against the Thai Government is based on the False premises, I laid out for you. See again:
http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/241834.html
The plane would ‘incidentally’ be freed as the German suit is thrown out of Court.
Ralph Kramden #151— Please excuse any unintended disrespect, but are you an in-law of Jackie Gleason of the Honeymooners?
As to why the CP is not suing: The Thai Government has been sued and is answering the suit brought against them. And, the successful legal pursuit by the Thai Government’s suit would ‘incidentally’ free THE plane. Keep in mind the Thai Government says it is going to counter-sue, not just to resolve this case, but to prevent any future similar cases.
Ralph, if you were the innocent victim of a false suit brought against a third party, would you go to the inconvenience and expense to independently sue, when the third party’s counter suit will free your plane with neither cost nor effort on your part?
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ไม่ระบุชื่อ Bkk lawyer can speak for himself but one assumes that they have been busy doing that already but the German court didn’t find it convincing thus far, hence the demand for a security deposit.
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ใม่ระบุชีอ @155
Excuse me butting in. Ah, now you are thinking like a Thai politician. My guess is they have already thought of this but It would look a bit suspicious if they came up with it after all this time. I suppose they could say it got lodged at the back of the filing cabinet and have only just found it.
Thank you BKK Lawyer for your enlightening comments and thank you Sam for some pertinent questions.
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The German embassy in Bangkok has issued a statement that makes an important point I had overlooked in describing the court proceedings in the U.S.:
If Thailand happens to win its appeal in the U.S., the only result will be that the arbitration award is no longer a judgment of the New York federal court, which means that particular judgment can no longer be enforced. But Thailand remains obligated to pay according to the 1999 arbitration award. And the Germans could still petition to have the award entered as judgments in other courts, in the U.S. or elsewhere.
The U.S. proceedings are not examining the merits and propriety of the initial arbitration decision. The U.S. appeals court is only reviewing the procedural decision, by the lower U.S. court, to enter the award as a judgment in New York.
I overlooked the fact that the airplane impoundment is not being conducted to enforce the U.S. judgment, but rather to enforce the earlier award. Therefore, even if Thailand prevails in its U.S. appeal, that would have no effect on the ongoing impoundment proceedings.
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ไม่ระบุชื่อ @155: They could certainly try to submit a forged document. But it would not work. There is ample other evidence of the chain of title, such as the aircraft registry, and probably public access to old versions of the registry.
Also, the court isn’t going to consider just one document, and would be suspicious if Thailand presented only one document for its evidence. If I were the liquidator, I would ask for documents that reflect such things as (1) who’s been paying the insurance premiums on the plane since before the issue of ownership arose, (2) who’s been paying for maintenance, etc. If such documents show that Thailand has been taking responsibility for the plane as if it were the owner, that would be more powerful evidence than a document that purports to show a transfer of ownership (even if the document is genuine).
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The “Thai Law & Policy” blog has a couple of informative posts on the arbitration/aircraft issues:
A Possible Solution to the Arbitration Row with Walter Bau?: https://thailawandpolicy.wordpress.com/2011/07/23/a-possible-solution-to-the-arbitration-row-with-walter-bau/
Arbitration with the Thai Government?: https://thailawandpolicy.wordpress.com/2011/07/16/arbitration-with-the-thai-government/
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Many thanks to BKK Lawyer for the (as usual) clear explanations for us mere non-legal mortals.
FWIW, there is more contained in a new post from Bangkok Pundit:
http://asiancorrespondent.com/61008/german-embassy-thai-government-was-asked-repeatedly-to-comply-with-the-walter-bau-judgement/
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Not one of these indignant officials has given a single voice to the possibility that this all might have to do with bad Karma arising from wrongful acts in the past, present and future committed by the state and willing citizenry.
Listening to one Thai official yesterday cite how independent the Thai judiciary was from the government and how governments (Germany) should refrain from taking positions vis-a-vis court decisions (the plane) is yet another reminder that the Thai ethic just won’t accept being out and out wrong about anything…and as a result having to accept responsibility and pay for it. It is just that there is nothing in the malethic nature of the beast to admit wrongdoing and to accept other than token (no-cost) responsibility.
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Re SteveCM #161
Indeed, I found the German Embassy in Bangkok press release to be very strongly worded. In essence, it says to the Royal Thai Government: “You have run out of time and exhausted all appeals. We expect you to PAY UP NOW!”
I have extracted the following from the Bangkok Pundit post listed in posting #161:
“The aircraft was impounded after an international arbitration panel ruled in summer 2009 that the Thai state should pay compensation to the company Walter Bau AG. The judgement is final. In line with the Investment Protection Treaty between Germany and Thailand, the German Government expects the Thai Government to fulfil its obligation under the judgement as soon as possible.”
“Reports in the Thai media about ongoing proceedings in New York in this connection are misleading. The proceedings in New York merely concern the question as to whether a compulsory enforcement is also possible in the US. This will do nothing to alter Thailand’s obligation to pay compensation.”
“An early resolution of this case would restore the confidence of German and other foreign investors in Thailand and would send out a positive message about the further development of German-Thai relations.”
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(Sam) Your concern about ‘fairness’ — does it extend to the 4,000 workers who reportedly lost their jobs when Walter Bau went belly-up in 2005? I don’t know if timely payment by Thailand would have helped avoid that, but put it on the scales against annoying publicity and loss of use of one personal jet, and see what it weighs. Might payments now go toward benefits for those laid-off workers? Fairness is in the eyes of the beholder, I guess.
(FGA#163): ‘Malethic’? That’s ‘malefic’ spoken with a lisp, right?
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So all of this could have been avoided if the Thai government had accepted the final ruling of the arbitration court and paid up what is in terms of state budgets a very small amount of money. Why wont they pay up?
There is a certain irony when considering Thai government spokespeople go on about foreign governments respecting Thai court decisions and returning the evil one or at least not letting him into their hallowed land.
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The Thai Foreign Ministry’s response to the German government’s succinct and accurate summary of the situation and how it can easily be resolved is truly amazing. They say that nobody told them that they were in breach of any law or agreement, if they refused to pay the compensation ordered by the UN arbitration tribunal in Geneva, despite the fact that they knew the tribunal, which even included a Thai presiding officer and at which the Thai government was represented by distinguished international lawyers, was convened under the German-Thai investment treaty. They also claim that nobody told them they had no right to appeal the tribunal’s decision, despite the fact that under the terms of the treaty willingly entered into by the Thai government there is clearly no avenue for appeal against the tribunal’s judgement.
The statements beg the question of who on earth have they been talking to, if nobody told them what would be patently obvious to a first year law student after a cursory reading of the treaty and the tribunal’s judgment.
Finally they complain that Germany is interfering in a dispute to which it is not a party. While Germany is not a litigant, it is clearly one of the two parties bound by the bilateral investment treaty that has been flagrantly violated by the Thai government. As such it has to guarantee the treaty’s tag along rights to German firms. If the boot were on the other foot and the German government refused to pay an arbitration award to a Thai company under the treaty, it is hard to imagine the Thai government remaining silent. It is more likely that individuals within the government would see an opportunity for personal gains and that the government would vociferously try to collect the debt on commission.
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There is an old saying “There is no honour among thieves” and when one considers who are the parties to this dispute surely the adage applies to all concerned.
Firstly Walter Bau. Why did this German company conspire with the Thai government of the day to make Bangkok more car polluted and energy wasteful? Did the company’s principals think they might be able to come and join in the high life of Bangkok and speed around the town in bright red BMWs or elegant Benz limosines, all made in Germany of course?
Following the re-unification of Germany, the government there poured massive sums of money into upgrading the railways of the DDR so why does it now stand by a treaty which rewards environmental crime in Thailand? Why weren’t they pushing Thailand into upgrading the railway to Don Muang twenty years ago? The train trip from HuaLampong still takes 50 minutes.
Also please do not be fooled into thinking the German-Thai investment treaty has anything to do with justice. Does this treaty guarantee a minimum wage for workers, the right to form trade unions and to strike, safe working conditions and the protection of the environment? I rather think not unless it is an entirely different animal from say NAFTA and the fact that building this road goes completely against the protection of the environment.
So should Thailand pay up now? I suggest not. The forfeiture of the plane or planes will save the government the great cost of running them and the 30 million Euros owed would be better spent on railway works.
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overheard at a noodle shop, (it almost made me spit out my food in laughter).
loosely and literally translated:
“Phor Piang Hia arai wa? Meng nueng Khrob khrua tong kaan boeing kii khan wa?”
“What kind of Sufficiency economy monitor lizard is this? 1 family needs how many boeings?”
I felt like correcting him, it was for 1 person, not the family… but like I usually do in this country, I decided that saying nothing was best
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I’ve very much enjoyed this recent round of ‘community thinking.’
I specially want to thank BKK lawyer for his patient sharing of his legal understandings! He kept this portion of the dialogue going and centered on trying to work out ‘what are the real legal issues and what laws apply, in what manner.’ In a few short days our understandings reached new heights.
My respects BKK lawyer. Between you and the Bangkok Pundit (BP) and all the intelligent folks inspired to contribute by your examples, this has been a rewarding legal discussion.
And, while it goes without saying, maybe we should say it more often, anyway. We owe appreciation to New Mandala for making this forum available and encouraging such a broad range of perspectives.
Altogether, “Hear! Hear!”
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Re Ricky #168
You seem to be a great fan of railways. Nothing wrong with that but not much sense in the rest of your argument.
Walter Bau did not “conspire with the Thai government of the day ” they entered into a well publicised contract. That is the way the free world does business.
As for “mak[ing] Bangkok more car polluted and energy wasteful” you obviously don’t consider the traffic jams on the old Vibhavadi Rangsit Highway. Cars are far more polluting and energy wasteful when they are inching along in endless traffic jams rather than on a freeway. Improving traffic flow reduces pollution and is hardly an “environmental crime”.
After reunification Germany did spend massive amounts on railways in the old DDR but they also spent massive amounts on roads . They knew that improved transport was essential to revitalize the East. Thailand also is in great need of improvements to both road and rail infrastructure if the lives of the majority are to be improved.
“Why weren’t they pushing Thailand into upgrading the railway to Don Muang twenty years ago? ” you ask. Well twenty years ago I was working on upgrading the railway to Don Muang. But paid by the Australians not the Germans. After that the Japanese invested further money into improving the same line. But you are right that there is still scope for huge improvements.
As for the Thai government forfeiting the plane, so far the only result of their stubbornness is that a second plane has been flown out to rescue the CP. So no savings for the environment there. And if the Thai government ever diverts budget from the CP’s fleet of planes to invest in badly needed improvements at Royal State Railways of Thailand I shall eat my plastic Thomas the Tank Engine model.
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“The jet is not a normal one, since it is often flown by HRH Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn. HRH the Crown Prince made clear he understands the situation, but it is the duty of the new foreign minister to employ his or her diplomatic skills to try to get the plane released. ”
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/07/27/national/The-job-nobody-wants-next-foreign-minister-30161215.html
Interesting viewpoint, I thought.
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Nobody @166: You make an excellent point that this “is in terms of state budgets a very small amount of money.” Similarly, it is a trivial issue for a prime minister to deal with — let alone speak out about, let alone bash a friendly country about.
The leader of a non-dysfunctional government would not concern himself or herself with such a trivial issue, and if asked about it by the press would say something like ‘we respect our treaty obligations with Germany’ and ‘the judicial process should run its course,’ and refer further inquiries to the responsible ministry. I am constantly amazed by how often Thai leaders (esp. AV) not only wade into small matters, but even offend people and countries about them.
Portman @167 is right, too, on similar points. Thailand has some excellent lawyers (the foreign ones, at least), and its law firm for the New York proceeding (DLA Piper) is one of the best in the country (and the world). To react to the recent developments with a ‘poor us, nobody warned us’ is not only ludicrous but also probably a lie.
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another update from BangkokPost:
“Acting government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn said the Foreign Ministry would explain and clarify the issue to its German counterpart. The ministry has never heard from any sources that the Thai government will violate any law or breach any agreement if it refused to pay, Foreign Ministry deputy spokesman Jessada Katawetin said.”
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/248948/germany-tells-govt-to-pay-contractor
FYI, the CP is flying back to Thailand before Aug 1st, so I suspect the second plane won’t be there for long:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/249064/crown-prince-to-chair-aug-1-opening-of-parliament
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Does anyone understand why the Nation is claiming that the German Embassy’s statement has been removed from its website? Tulsathit has been claiming this in the ‘tweets’ bit since yesterday. I have no problem accessing it at
http://www.bangkok.diplo.de/contentblob/3217318/Daten/1466452/Flugzeug_Download.pdf
Was there something more, that’s now been removed, or has the Nation simply decided to go the DP route and make stuff up as it goes along?
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Tell the Germans they can keep the plane. That will save 200,000,000 Baht a year in running costs for somebody…..
taxpayers?
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JohnW @175:
The link you gave leads to “download not available,” but I can still access the German statement at the same addresses where I retrieved it on Tuesday:
Thai version: http://www.bangkok.diplo.de/contentblob/3221716/Daten/1466452/Flugzeug_Download.pdf
English version: http://www.bangkok.diplo.de/contentblob/3217318/Daten/1454765/Flugzeug_Download.pdf
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About an hour ago, the Bangkok Post was publishing comments on this online article:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/249116/abhisit-warns-german-govt-to-back-off
There was a large number of comments, most of which were highly critical of the outgoing Governments stance and many were well informed about the legal issues. There was also some justified criticism of the Post’s misleading wording about Thailand’s current legal position.
The comments have now been removed.
This habit of removing comments when they are predominantly unsympathetic to the Government or the major Thai institutions seems to have become a standard practice of the Post in recent times. Yes, the paper legitimately reserves the right not to publish comments, but to remove comments, which they have moderated and agreed to publish, can only reflect badly on the paper and its editorial staff and must raise questions about the influence of outside pressure by the Government (or in other cases, the army).
Whatever, it is an insidious and despicable form of censorship.
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In a call to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs’ Political division this morning, a ‘roving reporter’ was informed that the legal aspects of this are being handled by the Attorney General’s office – which we probably know. But it is interesting that the MFA’s website statement on the German embassy statement cites the affair being between the State and a private company. Unclear is the line between state, government, and who the AG is really representing.
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Banphai #178
You are quite right. But thanks to the tip from johninbkk #108 all the comments can currently still be read at http://m.bangkokpost.com/topstories/249116
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c175
“Was there something more, that’s now been removed, or has the Nation simply decided to go the DP route and make stuff up as it goes along?”
Bangkok Pundit clarifies this and more in a further blog post* – extract:
1. The Nation carefully words the part about the German Embassy’s statement being removed from its homepage. Initially, Tulsathit incorrectly tweeted that “German Embassy has removed from its web site a statement demanding Thailand to quickly pay compensation”, but as BP pointed out the statement is still available on the Embassy website – English one here and Thai one here. From what BP understands, there was a prominent link on the front page to a secondary page which had the link to the press statement. The secondary page is still there, but the link to the secondary page has been removed from the frontpage of the German Embassy website.
BP: Given the Thai government reaction, the Germans appear to not want to promote the press release although they have not removed the press release, let alone retracted it.
Given his largely Thai experience, I suspect Tulsathit finds it really difficult to distinguish between news/information that’s simply disseminated and a propaganda product that needs to be “promoted”. The Germans (these days) deal in facts whereas the Thai approach is more attuned to (huff and) puff – witness soon-to-be-ex PM Abhisit’s absurd posturing.
* http://asiancorrespondent.com/61118/abhisit-ups-the-ante-against-the-german-government/
(Much more on the legal aspects in the rest of the post)
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I am not always in agreement with the majority view on New Mandala, as many are aware, but this thread in particular highlights for me the importance of having a forum such as this in which all can freely read and contribute without censorship or fear of arrest. The factual legal information assembled here on this case is outstanding.
Re Abhisit’s response it is hard to fathom why he is bombasting a friendly state that is also an important investor and trading partner with blatantly unsound legal arguments, rather than working quietly behind the scenes to ensure a face saving solution for all. He has also unbelievably missed a free kick against Thaksin who, after all, was the one who started the contractual rot by forcing DMT to drop its tolls to a flat rate of 20 baht in 2003 and will instead allow Thaksin a free kick, since the latter will inevitably claim credit for fixing the mess soon after his sister takes office. What an ass!
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c182
“Re Abhisit’s response it is hard to fathom why he is bombasting a friendly state that is also an important investor and trading partner with blatantly unsound legal arguments, rather than working quietly behind the scenes to ensure a face saving solution for all.”
It strikes me as comparable to Abhisit’s “handling” of the ICJ’s recent ruling. While initially saying that as merely the “acting” government, they could not take steps themselves but were obliged to leave it to the incoming government to deal with, within just two days he flip-flopped and was making negative statements and declaring decisions at every opportunity.
Difficult not to see this latest involvement as just more of the “poisoned chalice” approach (maybe better “poisoned well”?) of handing over to the PT-led as big and embarrassing a mess as he can manage to create. I doubt the Germans will fall for it any more than did the Cambodians – who make it very clear that they’re just sensibly waiting for the change of government to be completed. But Abhisit will still have set the stage for flinging accusations that the PT government are just not “pro-Thai” enough. It’s patently nonsense – but will find a ready audience amongst the “My country right or wrong” crowd. In that context, assuming YS’ government does manage to work “quietly behind the scenes to ensure a face saving solution for all”, they’ll – but of course – be painted as having “sold out”.
…….
Apologies for “promoting” yet another Pundit post (no commissions, I promise), but he provides further context for how episodes like this are seriously affecting the outside (real?) world’s view of Thailand as a territory where sensible investors will think at least twice before signing any deal with a supposedly competent Thai authority or company: http://asiancorrespondent.com/61117/would-a-sane-person-arbitrate/ (in Thailand with the Thai government?)
So very third world….. Is that really where Thailand sees itself?
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Apologies – 3rd paragraph of preceding comment should read “….handing over to the PT-led government….”
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For those whose appetites are whetted, yet more legal input (and discussion) on the case available here: http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Possible-Way-End-Arbitration-Row-1799891.S.63148949?qid=96460473-ef3a-4dd3-8157-22c42927b68b&trk=group_most_popular-0-b-ttl&goback=.gmp_1799891
A key comment from “Douglas” (the lawyer who wrote posts linked-to in c161 ): In Thailand’s own opening appellate brief that it filed on 26 July 2011, it says this on page 6: “The New York Convention also affords the [US] district court no power to vacate the Final [Arbitration] Award, and Thailand did NOT ask the district court to do so.”
The text of that brief is available at: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B288nzKEmOVPMmIzNGMwMjMtNmJjZC00MTVlLWJhOTItMjFmMjMzNWFjODU1&hl=en_GB
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BKK lawyer #177
That’s weird. The link I posted still works for me, but the ones YOU posted don’t. I thought it might be because my computer had cached the .pdf, but I tried the Thai sister version (not previously accessed), and that works for me too:
http://www.bangkok.diplo.de/contentblob/3221716/Daten/1469233/Flugzeug_Download.pdf
Never encountered this before.
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The Nation has an article quoting Abhisit as saying he has secret new information on the Plane seizure/German construction company case that “will make the German government change its tone”….
http://goo.gl/dCVy8
Wouldn’t it be more prudent for the now ex-Prime Minister Abhisit to step back from this controversy rather than stirring the pot?
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Until the last day of his tenure , Abhisit will fool no one but himself , by being an absolute buffon and lackey of the elite .
So long to the butcher of Bangkok. No one will miss you .
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From the bizarre flailing around and incomprehensible statements whirling from the mouths of Abhisit and Kasit, one can only speculate on any pressure being applied to them to get things done.
However, for those self appointed, and generally ineffective, defenders of the establishment it must be very frustrating that they cant get the German government to intimidate their courts and have to be drawn into the real world of seperation of powers and what a final judgement means. That this happens in an almost allegoric way in their twilight days in power must make it even more frustrating with them knowing full well that the incoming “enemy” of the establishment government will no doubt quickly resolve the problem that they themselves only compounded while making themselves look like abject fools.
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The approach of Abhisit and the Foreign Ministry, explaining the situation from a Thai perspective and providing some more up-to-date data is reminiscent of the Bank of Thailand’s approach in admonishing foreign analysts who predicted the baht would collapse a year before it really did. Only in this case, they know they are lying, whereas the BoT actually believed its own lies.
Thanong has a ridiculous piece in The Nation where he sees a German government conspiracy involving the seizure of the plane and the apparent reversal of Thaksin’s persona non grata order. He still doesn’t understand that the German government doesn’t have the ability to interfere with the courts, even if it wanted to. Also letting Thaksin back in is much more likely to be a passive reaction from the Merkel government which really doesn’t have any interest or understanding in anything beyond its own borders or Europe at the most. Thaksin has probably pushed the right buttons to get the right people to lobby the government at a time when the Merkel administration couldn’t care less about Thailand and can’t remember who he is or why they banned him in the first place.
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how episodes like this are seriously affecting the outside (real?) world’s view of Thailand as a territory where sensible investors will think at least twice before signing any deal with a supposedly competent Thai authority or company
Maybe the view of an actual German businessman in Thailand might be worth noting:
‘No impact’ from German case
Businessmen see it as a one-on-one dispute
Published: 29/07/2011 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: Business
http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/economics/249299/no-impact-from-german-case
The dispute between the Thai government and a German contractor is unlikely to affect trade and investment between the two countries, German and Thai executives say.
Rolf-Dieter Daniel, president of the German-Thai Chamber of Commerce, said the court case between Walter Bau AG and the Thai government had nothing to do with businesses
…
But Mr Daniel, who returned from Germany on Wednesday, said there was no concern about investing in Thailand among German firms about such an issue.
“It will not have a long-term impact on bilateral trade and investment and for the short term, I don’t think it would. They are totally different issues,” he said.
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Re Portman #190
When I first arrived here the “I” word in Thai was seldom used.
Not very Buddhist, you know, to go around beginning sentences with “I” and showing that ones egocentric illusion of having a self are not yet understood and abandoned. Tish, Tish. Bad form.
Anyway, as non-Enlightened as ” I” remain, “I” thought that despite some ‘incomplete knowledge of the issues’ Thanong made some telling points.
On the one hand, the holier than thou non-third world, European Union, GERMANS, proclaim they are Tish, Tish superior to those Thais, who don’t know that there is a separation of powers between the Executive and the Judicial branches of Government. Tish, THE German government could hardly be expected to interfere in the backwater local German Court’s holding for ransom the CP’s plane. More, Tish, Tish!
Then comes the open hypocrisy. ‘Heaven forbid, it must be all some kind of mistake, smirks the German-Thai Chamber of Commerce, after the fact.’
What, you ask?
Well, THE German Embassy, the formal and legal branch of the GERMAN government in Thailand, openly and loudly INTERFERES in the aforementioned legal process, by DEMANDING OF THAILAND, Achtung! Achtung! “This is the German Government speaking. You Thais will immediately obey our orders and immediately pay the bills as our Judiciary says they are, NOW! ACHTUNG!!!!
What kind of German non-Governmental interference in the Judicial process is this, Thanong asks?
Hmmm, seems a fair question to me. But then I am unenlightened re their moralities, too.
Then, to add insult to injury, Thanon points out the embarrassing and even possibly criminal hypocrisy of the OFFICIAL German Government’s lifting of the ban on Thaksin’s travel to Germany, now that his younger sibling is PM elect of Thailand.
Nothing craven and corrupt about this ‘real politic’ German Government dropping of their enforcement of the International warrant outstanding against Mr. T., now that power has shifted in THAILAND.
Ahhh such shinning paragons of stalwart virtue. Hmmm until the winds changed, that is.
Well, I grant you, Thanongs face at the beginning of his column is kind of scary. Judgmental and condemning without a hint of being forgiving. And, there have been times, when I thought him quite disagreeably over the top and as scary in words as his photo.
But not this time.
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I’m skeptical when the President of the German-Thai Chamber of Commerce, with personal ongoing business interests in Thailand probably dependent on his good relations with Thai government officials, says the following to a Bangkok Post Reporter.
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Yesterday the court announced that a decision about ownership of the plane will take at least until mid September.
And surprising – ownership of the plane will be decided according to Thai Law !
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Link to The Nation article reporting that Thailand government’s Office of Attorney General says the German construction company needs to bring its compensation case before a court in Thailand if it wants to receive payment:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/07/30/national/Bring-case-to-Thailand-30161496.html
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This entire discussion will probably be irrelevant by next week, given that Kasit and AV will no longer hold political office.
BangkokPost has a new update:
“Mr Kasit said the Germans were pursuing a double standard.”
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/249433/kasit-slams-german-decision
(I’m laughing so hard it almost hurts)
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From that Notion article linked by Nathan in c195:
Thailand had a witness who was very familiar with the investment contract from the beginning, but the international arbitration tribunal refused to take this witness into account and made an unfair judgement against the Thai government, Julasing said.
“If the German court in Berlin learned about this key witness, I believe the court would agree with Thailand that the tribunal made the wrong decision on the case,” he said.
Kind of takes you back to those old episodes of Perry Mason, doesn’t it? There was always the late arrival of that key witness who swung the case round…..
Rather too late in this case, I suspect…..
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With his mystery witness who is going to ride in and save the day A-G Julasingh seems now to be drawing his inspiration from Chalerm’s creative defence of his son that featured a mystery shooter who won the legal battle for the hapless Duangchalerm without the need to be identified or even exist. Something tells me it won’t be so easy in a uncorrupt Western court. Perhaps that is why Julasingh is wistfully trying to tempt Werner Schneider into filing an enforcement action in a Thai court. Unfortunately he has overlooked the important point that Herr Schneider has just been declared persona non grata in Thailand by the foreign minister. Julasingh doesn’t seem to feel it necessary to explain (and the Thai media didn’t feel the need to ask him) why the Thai defence team of international lawyers hired at vast taxpayers’ expense didn’t present this crucial witness at the UN arbitration in Geneva.
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Sam 192. Let Thanong rail at the German government’s decision to let Thaksin back in by all means, although to be fair to them we have not heard what their reasons were for that, if it is indeed true. Their reasons for banning him originally seemed to be not for political reasons but because he used some false or incomplete documents to apply for a residence permit in Bonn under an assumed name. The reasons given by Noppadol and Kasit for his unbanning are simply conjecture.
The German Embassy is not a government interfering in a dispute between a private company and Thailand because it is a signatory to and thus effectively a guarantor on behalf of German companies of the bilateral treaty that the UN arbitration found had been violated by Thailand. Of course the government cannot interfere with the Landshut court which, as I have pointed out, is not a backwater court but a highly appropriate court to deal with a matter relating to the airport and is in an administrative capital of Bavaria. Germany seems to be just saying that when you have lost an international arbitration and their are no meaningful avenues of appeal, just pay up and save everyone a lot of trouble. Isn’t that also the message that the government has given to Thaksin who I personally think would do everyone a big favour by coming back and spending the rest of his life behind bars?
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Train audacity
http://news.yahoo.com/china-lawyers-told-not-rail-crash-cases-141719308.html
Nationally lawyers told not to take cases AND to report family members who ask them to.
Legal experts and law firms afraid to take on certain topics, and with good reason.
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Question: Is the Attorney General a political post or a technocrat / civil service type appointment. Will the incoming PT government need to replace him with their own appointee?
I think this might be important, as an obvious royalist / Sonti / Thanong strategy will be to publicly maintain that black is white in all these cases (as they are currently doing) then, if and when the new government accepts the inevitable, howl that they’ve sold out the Thai nation, blockade parliament etc.
It would actually be preferable if (some of) the loonies are kept in the firing line until they are forced to confront reality.
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The German government is not interfering in any judicial process by saying that Thailand should pay the arbitration award. There is no longer a judicial process in which Germany could interfere. As Portman @199 notes, the arbitration award is final, unappealable, and due. (The court case in the U.S. will not change that.)
On the other hand, there is an ongoing judicial process concerning seizure of the airplane in Germany, but the German government has not (that we know) “interfered” there. It has correctly said it cannot interfere there.
It’s laughable that PM Abhisit and FM Kasit — and their cheering section, Thanong — are complaining that the German government is interfering with the judiciary, not only because it’s not, but because Kasit dashed off to Germany to demand that it interfere! Apparently it would have suited Abhikasit if Germany had advised its judiciary to release the plane, but not to advise Thailand to abide by the now-final arbitration decision.
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Dan ajarn // Jul 30, 2011 at 3:31 am
I’m skeptical when the President of the German-Thai Chamber of Commerce, with personal ongoing business interests in Thailand probably dependent on his good relations with Thai government officials, says the following to a Bangkok Post Reporter.
Interesting that you don’t believe what a real businessman, doing real business in Thailand, says about the impact of this case on the perception of the international business community.
You say that as apparently an “ajarn”, which gives you what insight into the international business community and its perception of doing business In Thailand? Or is your comment more about your opinion of Thailand and the need to disparage anyone that has a different view?
Also interesting that my post on what a real businessman thinks about doing business in Thailand got 6 thumbs down and your post on what an English teacher thinks about it got 6 thumbs up.
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As I have said from the beginning, “Two wrongs don’t make a right!”
So much of the commentary herein focuses on the ‘wrongs’ of the Thai position, but ignore the WRONGFUL, crude and insulting way the Germans have gone about ‘righting their perceived wrong.’
Note the inflamed response to the German ‘wrong approach’ from Bangkok Post editor Thirasant Mann:
”…Thai prestige is insulted _ and insulted in such a way as to shock the very core of our being.”
“…this uber ugly, crass beyond crudity, highly indecent and morally reprehensible action by the deutsche government in striking at an institution which they fully know we highly revere…”
“…instead of discussing the legal merits of the case, our government should have taken immediate steps to retrieve the plane.” German actions have created “…animus which will reap them the whirlwind in future relations,” beginning with, Thirasant demanded, ‘sinking the German submarine contract.’
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/249446/damn-their-euros-save-our-pride
Now ask yourself, ‘Is there something wrong with the legally ‘self-righteous’ way the Germans have acted, when it produces such a counter-productive response?’
Bau German liquidators have needlessly insulted a ‘sacred’ Thai institution having nothing to do with the suit. This wrongful victimization of a sacred innocent party was intentionally planned by the Germans to be provocative. Well, as we see from the about, it has worked.
But victimizing an innocent party calls for a counter-response of ‘righting this new wrong,’ NOT righting the old perceived debt wrong. Instead, a new grievance has been created, that must now be righted. And, so it goes, ever increasing victimization going round and round in a self reinforcing continuous cycle of perceived injustice.
The German’s feel victimized by the Thais and demand ‘justice’. But the wrongful way the Germans seek their justice, victimizes the Thais in a new way, which the Thais see as a new German injustice that must be punished in order to gain justice.
So now what? The Thai’s to gain justice cancel the German Sub contract(?), another party having nothing to do with the original debt injustice, but now turned into a new innocent German victim, which the Germans will react to by demanding that this new perceived injustice be punished in the name of justice….
And, so it goes, ever spinning in a reinforcing circle of abuse, victimization, and escalating demands for justice creating new innocent victims on the way to spinning out of control.
Or, as I’ve been saying all along, “Two wrongs don’t make a right!”
It’s in German hands to stop this endless cycle now, before it truly gets out of hand. They should take their finger out of the Thai eye and release the innocent plane and return the issue to the original debt injustice, rather than face the no-win new injustice reaction, the Germans have created by insulting a sacred Thai institution.
That is, if the Germans are mature, civilized and pragmatic enough to let go of that delicious and addictive barbaric desire for ‘vengeance at all costs’, no matter how self destructive it may be.
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Both BP’s report this morning that CP will stump up with the bond money for his plane.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/249761/prince-to-use-own-funds-to-end-dispute
http://asiancorrespondent.com/61408/thai-crown-prince-issues-statement-on-seized-boeing-737
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Allow me to go off topic a bit.
It has just come to my attention that the Vivacharawongse Family (Yuvathida who is the second wife of Prince V and her four sons) has recently released their open letter, telling us what they are doing. Apparently the second son of Prince V is now a lawyer in the US, and the first & fourth sons are also pursuing their legal studies to be admitted. The third one is pursuing a degree in medicine. He also has health problems.
I have seen the censored version of the letter, is there anyone who knows where to look for the ‘uncensored version’?
Many thanks, CT
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This commentary continues to amuse more so than inform. Take Sam’s wonderful rant in response to our favourite satirical column by not-the-editor Mann and his characterization of O as an “innocent party”. Not what one usually hears around. Also the news that “CP will stump up with the bond money” comes as a worry. Will the prices rise at 7-Eleven to compensate or will the benefactor who paid the gambling debts come to the party?
The “my thumbs down” vs. “Your thumbs up” adds to the fun. I wonder how proud I should be for scoring 18 thumbs down (comment 168) for calling all parties crooks and suggesting the plane be forfeited and no payment be made?
Thanks to Pete S (171) for his thoughtful and highly thumbs-uped response. I do think, however, this indicates a need for the readership to read more widely. Just pick up any of Noam Chomsky’s political writings or talks on youtube.com to see that highway building is the free world’s version of social engineering and that bug business is all about privatizing profits and socializing costs.
I also suggest when it comes to the debt issue readers consider the strong movement for cancelling 3rd World Debt, which even gets recognition by the likes of Tony Blair.
Frank Anderson may be right about the meanness of the Thai’s as a motive for non payment of the tollway debt, however a case can be made that evil debts like this should not be paid, just as say demanding the Iraqis pay for Saddam’s chandeliers. For I do maintain that ignoring rail development while the Americans taught the country to build super highways was evil. But then I am not a mate of Banharn the super highway builder of Supanburi.
Perhaps Andrew might like to invite a guest to write about Thailand and 3rd World debt? And perhaps in the context of how Thailand has been a champion for the poor in need of cheap drugs.
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Re Sam @ 204
I get your point, but I fundamentally disagree with it. There has been no convincing proof presented that the “innocent plane” you mention belongs to the Crown Prince. I remained convinced that the actual ownership remains with the RTAF, and that the Prince merely has (had) use of it. If this is the case, and I believe the facts will eventually emerge to prove that no transfer of ownership ever actually occurred, then the the plane is a legititmate seizure target and the impounding of the plane by the court was a proper measure. Whether it enflames the tempers of the royalists is irrelevant to the matter before the court. There is no “second wrong” here as you contend, merely some legitimate arm twisting by a creditor upon a deadbeat debtor.
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PS – I hope they do “sink the German submarine contract”! Why the Royal Thai Navy wants to buy these old, obsolete submarines is beyond my comprehension. As HMK has pointed out, if the average depth of the Gulf of Siam is only 15 m, the Thai Navy really can’t make good strategic use of them, and they are a bad deal for the Thai people and the rest of us taxpayers.
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Re: the real BP’s comment “the Crown Prince wants the issue resolved as the issue has been escalating and he feels that the case is having an impact on his reputation.”
One point I omitted to mention about Mann’s column is his suggestion that the German submarine deal would be scuttled.
If this were to happen because of the involvement of the Crown Prince in the matter surely this would redeem him in the eyes of many of his critics.
My comment about “bug business” was of course mistyped. My attack was aimed at more than the pesticide industry.
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(CT#206) What makes you think the letter is censored (846 words from “Dear Friends’ to ‘We remain faithfully yours’, yes? ) and for that matter, what makes you think it is authentic?
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The Nation reports a fascinating turn of events in that the CP, who previously urged the government not to pay the security deposit and is not noted for his personal largesse or deep pockets, has decided to pay the security deposit himself. I sense the magic hand of Mr T, who has miraculously been declared persona grata again in Germany just in the nick of time. Helping out with petty cash of 20 million euros behind the scenes is a brilliant way of giving the CP face and defusing a difficult situation for the incoming FM.
Next stop Pra Viharn. Can’t wait.
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I personally think you are all mistaken, (sure 210+ comments), this is just Thailand exporting their lovable nak leng culture to the world.Thaksin looks to be the nak leng in this case and sure it hasn’t gone wonderfully well this first attempt at showing the international audience the true depth of Thai culture, the one beyond the smile but before the threats. It’s most notable victim, however, didn’t turn out to be some forgettable foreign investor but our beloved CP.
Now some may think that Abhisit and Kasit haven’t performed at their very best in their dying hour. and that they appear to have inflamed and bungled the whole affair.I feel this is far from the truth, they are merely demonstrating that they believe that the relationship between the CP and Thaksin is still extremely close and they are only endeavouring to poke a stick into that shining wheel with their last gasp.
Not allowing the toll-way to raise it’s prices and thereby stiffing the company into bankruptcy must have played well with both the little and big end of town.A win win for rich and poor alike and honour to a true nak leng. Now, who ended up with the toll-way when the dust settled?
Really, Kasit was a Foreign Minister? It just seems so unreal.
Amazing Thailand!
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The Bangkok Post reports the CP is paying the bond to release the Boeing 737 in Germany and:
The Nation reports:
The payment will not accomplish any of these goals. It will only allow the plane to be released. The arbitration award remains unpaid and the issue of who owns the 737 remains unresolved and subject to further litigation in Germany.
For the CP to get his money back, he or the Thai government still has to prove to the German court that the CP, not Thailand, owns the plane. The issue will remain alive and presumably will continue to be discussed in the media.
Also, Thailand’s obligation to Walter Bau remains unpaid and a controversial issue between the two countries.
So nothing has changed except the plane will no longer be ground-bound in Munich.
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@Superanonymous (#211)
I do not have any comment about its authenticity until I see the letter itself in full. Thanks.
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Portman #212
One is reminded of the US ambassador’s comment about Thaksin “investing in crown prince futures”. What are the odds on King Rama X appointing Thaksin chief privy counsellor?
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question:
Thailand gold reserves are around 100 Tones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve
As most countries they deposit gran part of heir gold at the United States Bullion Depository, commonly called Fort Knox.
Could the Liquidator confiscate those deposits once the USA court is completed and won by Walter Bau.
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Re Arthurson #208
Evidence of ownership was presented by the Bangkok Pundit 2 weeks ago:
A) “According to the Thai Department of Civil Aviation, “HS-CMV” is a Boeing 737-400 with a CFM56-3C1 engine which was first registered on October 11, 2005. The owner is listed as “H.R.H. THE CROWN PRINCE MAHA VAJIRALONGKORN”
http://asiancorrespondent.com/59962/liquidator-seizes-royal-thai-air-force-plane-in-munich-an-update/ [quote is found under point 2.]
B) Further legal supporting evidence of ownership is the CP, as the declared plane owner, paying the German Ransom. This is a de facto act of ownership. The owner establishes ownership, in fact, by assuming responsibility for and making the payment.
Short of the RTAF unlikely filing a counter claim of ownership, this act of ownership, also establishes that no other party lays claim to the plane.
Maybe the ‘BKK lawyer’ might weigh in on this next point, but as a non-lawyer it seems to me that —
“If the German Court accepts the money from the CP, the Court’s act of Acceptance is a legal Admission by the Court that the CP is the owner and has the right and obligation to pay the ransom! (?).
C) This next ‘used to be’ evidence of ownership raises professionalism questions as to the – how the international aircraft registry folks determine plane ownership. The following paragraph is taken from an email I sent to a friend 10 days ago, in which the international registry clearly and emphatically stated the CP was the aircraft’s owner.
“The independent and international ‘Aircraft Registration Database’ site clearly states under Remarks:
“…owner HRH Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn,…”
http://www.airframes.org/reg/hscmv
Now that the Court Case has gained notoriety, without explanation, this Registry has been changed to “used by” the CP.
All I can say about this flip flopping by the registry is that I would think none of the parties to the suit would be able to rely or establish claims of legal ownership from such erratic and non-transparent
Registries.
Please note, Bau’s original press statement claimed it was one of these registries that Bau used to convince the Court to accept their suit. Ugh!
A question to the cynical commentators on this string over the last 2 weeks. Many of you pointed out the failure of the CP to take responsibility in the German Court as the plane owner. Implied, as well as openly stated, was the lack of Court action by the CP was proof of his NOT owning the plane.
Now that the CP’s spokespeople have stated that the CP will go to the German Court and take legal action in that Court, tell me, now that the CP has done what you asked him to do —
“In your minds, is this now evidence that he does own the plane?”
Why do I think in most cases, this will NOT be your conclusion?
I end by copying below Tarrin’s #2 comment making a point, though I would name other governments too, that seems still worth considering, despite an amazing 41 negative hits!
• 2 Tarrin // Jul 15, 2011 at 2:22 pm
I felt bad for the prince really, the whole thing happened because the Abhisit government doesn’t want to pay the debt and the prince took the fall for it.
13 41
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Sam (218). Whoever turns out to own the 737, the damage is done. Kasit and Abhisit have sacrificed their country’s reputation for the sake of their own personal standing amongst the violent, corrupt, xenophobic rat-bags of their political faction. Credit for reparing some of the damage goes to Vajiralongkorn and his possible financial backer(s).
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Sam – woops
The prince’s offer prompted the Thai government to change its previous refusal to pay the bond, which was set by Landshut court near Munich in a ruling on July 20 as a condition to release the jet.
“The government will pay the 20-million-euro bond itself, to make clear that the crown prince has no involvement in the case which is between the government and a private company,” Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya said.
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I know $20 million is small change for a government but does a minister in a care taker government have the authority to order payment?
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Kasit contradicting the CP, isn’t that ground for LM? Then again, maybe EU20 mil. from the state, EU 20 mil. from the CP, case closed, all conflicts resolved.
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Sam @ 218:
A. The registration certificate raises a presumption of ownership, but it is not conclusive. A registration certificate contains only the signature of the person who’s filing the certificate and thereby claiming ownership, which obviously is self-serving and not conclusive proof. When an aircraft is sold or given away, there is a bill of sale signed by the previous owner and identifying the new owner. That’s the document that needs to be presented to the German court showing transfer of ownership from the RTAF to the CP (and it must show — credibly — that ownership was transferred before the plane was impounded).
B. Posting the bond (the “German ransom,” as you call it) does not prove ownership. Anyone with a strong interest in getting the property released while the seizure is contested may post a release bond. For example, if the aircraft were leased to an airline and the airline was losing money everyday because it cannot fly the plane, the airline might post the bond. Obviously that would not establish that the airline owns the plane — only that it needs to use it.
For the same reason, the court’s accepting the bond does not mean it agrees that the person posting the bond is the owner.
Consider that the Thai govt is apparently now willing to post the bond so the CP doesn’t have to (JohnW @220 and The Nation). How does that fit your theory that posting the bond proves ownership?
C. No one uses aircraft registries as proof of an airplane’s ownership — just as they don’t use registration certificates as proof. The registry is only the first step in identifying the owner. If you were buying a plane, you would not rely on the registry to confirm that the person taking your money is the true owner; you would do a thorough title search (looking at past bills of sale), just as you would do for land.
I too agree with Tarrin’s comment.
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c221
“….does a minister in a care taker government have the authority to order payment?”
Given the timing and who’s involved, I think a more relevant question is whether the incoming government would see fit to cancel it. I doubt it.
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Re: BKK lawyer@223
Thank you for the valuable law explanations. They are most helpful ‘legal groundings’ to build on, for all our understandings and future commentaries.
Please allow me to clear up a few misunderstandings.
1. As I repeatedly wrote, I was offering ‘evidence’ of ownership, not ‘proof’.
Therefore your criticism that I failed to ‘prove’ ownership by pointing out that the Thai Aviation Authority’s registry clearly states the CP is the owner, is false to my intent.
That you say ‘The registration certificate raises a PRESUMPTION OF OWNERSHIP, but is not conclusive’ is exactly my evidential point.
But in this case, I would add, a pre-existing official Thai Department of Aviation Authority registry listing of the CP as the owner is very strong presumptive evidence, indeed.
2. What is also relevant, as further ‘evidence’ of the CP’s ownership, is that this Registry’s Public and Published ‘Notice of Ownership’ was never challenged by any other party claiming to be the ‘true’ owner. Again, another ‘presumption’ of ownership due to a lack of claimants to the contrary.
3. You ask, “How does [Bkk lawyer’s law exposition] fit [my] theory that posting the bond proves ownership? Good question, but I wrote I don’t know the law and asked hopefully that you might reply with authoritative legal knowledge. Which you have, so thank you.
What I do suggest, however, is that the claimed owner by paying out of his own pocket the Court’s 28 million dollar ransom to free his claimed plane is common sense ‘presumptuous’ evidence that his claim might be real. And, furthermore, establishes a legal basis for any future Court claim by showing this as an ‘airplane bills paid’ by the claimed owner. In this case, a whopping bill, indeed.
Meanwhile, reality moves on and there seems to be ‘a left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing’ conflict between the PM and his Foreign Minister re their stance to be taken in Germany.
Mcot’s interview with the PM http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/246865.html
Is 180 out of sync with the FM, found in the Nation.
Regardless, finally, it looks like more than Tarrin is embarrassed by this uncalled for dragging of the CP’s name into this seamy suit dispute, despite none of it being of his making.
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It is almost surreal that an outgoing caretaker government due to be replaced in a few days are still issuing statement after statement and swinging all over the place instead of just allowing the incoming government to deal with the issue which is sensitive to Thailand. One can only hope that the outgoing government are coordinating with the incoming one over the matter before making their statements and taking actions so as not to compound the matter or to make Thailand look any more silly than they already have
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Dear John Smith #203,
Yes, that is my insight as a lowly “ajarn” in Thailand. I recently received my bachelor’s degree from UC Berkeley (perhaps you’ve heard of it?) and took a year off of my life to teach English while preparing for a master’s in international relations. I’m sorry you feel that I’m not high enough on the economic ladder to harbor a legitimate opinion on this matter.
I assure you, it is not “interesting” at all that your comment(s) got voted thumbs down. It is simply a statistical reflection of the sound of your logic and New Mandala viewership’s opinion of aforementioned logic…or lack thereof.
Sorry to clog the discussion, I just wanted a chance to respond to this ad hominem attack. Admins/mods, please give me that opportunity.
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Sam, what makes you think the CP had any thoughts of posting the bond with his own money? It is far more likely that his unexpected decision to pay up was underwritten by an offer from Thaksin and now Abhisit and Kasit are forced to reverse their positions and scrabble around to pre-empt Thaksin’s offer. Either way the CP pays nothing, nor should he, and the bill is footed either directly or indirectly by the RTG which should have paid up in the first place and avoided this nasty business and avoided unnecessary legal fees plus now a costly trip to Berlin by a useless team from Julasingh’s office.
In any event it seems that Schneider’s bold move to impound the plane will pay off handsomely. Even if he is only going to earn 10% of the award as his fee, he is not going to care that Kasit threw his teddy out of the pram and declared him persona non grata in Thailand for simply doing his job in Germany accordance with German law. There is always the Philippines or Cambodia if he feels the urge to do a little bumsen fliegen and they are cheaper too and without jet ski or Kingpower scams.
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Lao Guy #213
As a dumb Farang struggling with the subtleties of the Thai language, I would very much appreciate a little enlightenment on the precise meaning of Thailand’s “lovable nak leng culture”.
According to the Haas Thai-English Student’s Dictionary, a nak leng could be any of the following:
1. A rogue, rascal or gambler.
2. A bold or sporting person.
3. A big-hearted person.
4. A person who is an authority on something.
No doubt Thaksin possesses some of these nak leng qualities, but what about Abhisit, Kasit, the Crown Prince and Thailand as a whole?
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217 said Thailand gold reserves are around 100 Tones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve
As most countries they deposit gran part of heir gold at the United States Bullion Depository, commonly called Fort Knox.
Could the Liquidator confiscate those deposits once the USA court is completed and won by Walter Bau.
Thailand also has USD52 billion of treasury bonds, but looked into this already and the answer is “no”. The reason is because central bank assets have sovereign immunity as confirmed by the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit (the same court where the appeal was filed in the current case. See <a href="https://www.sullcrom.com/Foreign-Sovereign-Immunity-07-11-2011/"here" as excerpted below:
“In an important sovereign immunity decision, the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit ruled last week that the immunity provided to central bank assets in the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (the “FSIA”) does not depend on whether the central bank is “independent” from the parent state. Rather, ruling on an issue of first impression, the Court held that the immunity depends only on whether the assets are used for “central banking functions.” The Court therefore vacated attachments that bondholders of the Republic of Argentina had obtained on approximately $100 million of reserves of the Central Bank of Argentina (known by its initials in Spanish as “BCRA”) held at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York (the “FRBNY”). NML Capital, Ltd. v. Banco Central de la República Argentina, No. 10-1487-cv(L), — F.3d —, 2011 WL 2611269, at *19-20 (2d Cir. July 5, 2011). Sullivan & Cromwell LLP represented BCRA in the case.”
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Seh Fah #229 If you combine 1, 2, and 3 into one person (I don’t get number 4 at all) you have an approximation of a nak leng. A kind of Robin Hood crossed with Al Capone. This type of character is imbued into everyday Thai life and literature.and is still very much present in modern society. The nak leng has a good side but overall the negative far out weighs the positive.If you really must accept number 4 then think of the authority as authority figure as in Mafia figure. Abhisit is a lightweight, Kasit, just a loud mouth bully, But if you think of all the generals down through history who have pulled a coup, then they were all nak lengs,brave enough to dare to risk it all to get the big prize.
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Sam – 225
But in this case, I would add, a pre-existing official Thai Department of Aviation Authority registry listing of the CP as the owner is very strong presumptive evidence, indeed.
I would rather let BKKlaywer response to that, but I think I can clarify that in a simpler term, although I’m not a law practitioner but in my field of work I’m quite familiar with the ownership dispute. You see, the “pre-existing” registry doesn’t prove anything since it can be easily forged. Usually, when it comes to ownership dispute maybe it be land, cars, boats, or airplane, the court will ask for documents on who was paying the bill for maintenance and other related bill, since the user may simply borrow the asset. In my opinion, that is why BKKlawyer said that the evidence is inconclusive since the Thai side never be able prove that CP was the one who pays for the maintenance, sky access fees, and so on.
Moreover, since my first comment got so much disagree I think I want to expand a bit more on that. In my opinion, I really think that the price didn’t do anything wrong, but I never protect him. His senseless spending (along with other in his family) is directly draining from the poor Thais. However, we have to separate the issue, the CP is by all mean not a figure to look up to, but for this case its really not his fault.
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Spiegel has a detailed report on the background of the Walter Bau case against Thailand, the liquidator’s impoundment of the 737, and subsequent events, Runway Wrangling — Thailand Pledges to Settle Dispute Over Prince’s Jet http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,778125,00.html.
For those who are shocked by the German government getting involved in a private dispute:
It’s an interesting read.
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So, somebody in Bangkok tipped off the Germans with the CP flight schedule.
My guess. Prem.
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I agree with Tarrin that it’s not the CP’s fault that the Thai government did not pay its international debts (but it’s funny to watch the ex PM Abhisit and ex FM Kasit’s bumbling in trying to deal with the situation:)
It’s very hard to understand why the government didn’t just reach a settlement to quietly end the matter, and I suspect there is more at play than just money and face.
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Re: Tarrin@232
Khun Tarrin, in preparing to respond to your comment, I felt it would be easy to ‘prove’ that the Thai Civil Aviation reference was ‘pre-existing’ (see below as posted by the Bangkok Pundit) and so not a ‘forgery’ as you suggested it could be.
The awesomely though Bangkok Pundit included a link to an English version of the Registry, so I went there to check out if there was a — sequential case number for the plane’s ownership listing in the registry. The date of this number, if consistent with a sequence of surrounding dates, should show whether or not the CP’s ownership listing is, in fact, pre-dating the present controversy.
I found two surprising ‘facts’.
First, there are many ‘blank’ spaces in the case numbering sequence. So into any of these blanks any listing could be inserted ‘out of any dated sequential order.’ Therefore, finding a ‘pre-existing’ listing’s in the case number sequence would prove nothing as such a listing could, indeed, be a later introduced ‘forgery’ or not. So nothing was ‘provable’ by this method, either way.
The second finding is more disturbing. I could not find ANY listing whatsoever for any CP plane!
This raises many questions:
1. Was the listing there when the BP looked and now it has been removed?
2. Did the BP accidentally put in an incorrect link?
3. What is the ‘Official’ standing of an English spreadsheet, anyway?
4. Is there an ‘Official’ Thai spreadsheet that shows the listing?
5. Would an examination of the ‘case number sequencing placement’ in an Official Thai spreadsheet support the ‘pre-existing’ ownership contention or not?
Ugh!
Following is the full BP comment as well as the registry link.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/59962/liquidator-seizes-royal-thai-air-force-plane-in-munich-an-update/ [quote is found under point 2.]
(BP) According to the Thai Department of Civil Aviation, “HS-CMV” is a Boeing 737-400 with a CFM56-3C1 engine which was first registered on October 11, 2005. The owner is listed as “H.R.H. THE CROWN PRINCE MAHA VAJIRALONGKORN” (this information can be seen in this spreadsheet in English available from here. )
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jwj. Your conspiracy theory about Prem is off beam. The person who tipped off Werner Schneider about the royal plane was clearly Thaksin. His finger prints are all over this from ripping off the DMT consortium in 2003 by reducing the toll to B20 through to ingratiating himself with the CP by offering to pay the 20 million euros from an offshore account and later get reimbursed by his sister after she has had a chance to look good by solving the problem.
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Sam:
http://www.aviation.go.th/AviationNews/Thai%20Aircraft%20List_18%20Apr%202011%20EX.xls
Then under “HRH” tab. It is there. There are 4 planes listed including HS-CMV.
Portman: You do realise that problems faced by WB (and their predecessor’s problems regarding DMT) pre-date Thaksin and are listed thoroughly in the arbitration decision. The toll decision was one of the bigger problems for WB, but they had a litany of complaints before and after that over breaches of the contract which cost DMT money. There is a reason why The Nation and the Democrats haven’t jumped on the issue to lay it at solely at the feet of Thaksin.
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Portman #237, I knew you were going to pin the blame on him. If I was a betting man, I’d put my house on that one.
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No ingratiating is necessary, or expected, I believe. The man has lots of brass and can deliver many things to many people. We can banter all week about who was involved, who was not, but in the face of we being outside and not knowing for sure, it is probable that we really do not know the precise relationships that those high and mighty have with one another.
In short, I fail to see Thaksin’s fingerprints whatsoever.
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BP. Of course you are right. Thaksin only administered a very hefty kick to DMT when it was already down and why not? Ripping off any foreigner foolish enough to invest in infrastructure is a universal Thai trait that is not confined to any particular political persuasion. They are particularly careful only to allow foreigners into one off capital intensive projects where they are more vulnerable to exploitation. The more juicy projects in the telecoms sector are sensibly reserved for Thais and this is reinforced by the NBT’s ultra nationalistic definition of foreigner to include the slightest influence over the board or management, despite the NBT’s cynical road trips at vast expense to attract foreign bidders for 3G.
In the light of all this I can’t wait to see how Thaksin is going to finance all the infrastructure projects promised on his behalf by his sister. The Arabs proved not as doltish as Thaksin thought, when his Emirati lawyer ran off with his nominee stake in Man City. However, he still seems hopeful that they will buy up the land in his Lost City of Atlantis Under the Sea project.
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The Bangkok Pundit thoughtfully provides us with an analysis of a Der Spiegel article, which revealed new details on the Bau machinations re THE plane.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/61680/der-spiegel/
Let us add to the discussion by looking at a significant mistake in the article and, from a non-lawyer point of view, the dishonest implications of what appears to be serious ‘legal abuse’ by Bau and a “lower” Court.
The Mistake: Spiegel says “The Munich senior district court decided that it had no jurisdiction in the case. The prince, the court said, wore a uniform and was immune from prosecution. Schneider [ Bau’s liquidator] then took the case to a court in Berlin, and was successful.”
But as we all know, this is factually wrong. THE plane impoundment case was NOT taken to the Berlin Court. As the Nation explains, Bau took a different and separate action re arbitration to the Berlin Court. Bau sought action in the “…. German court in Berlin asking for enforcement of the arbitration tribunal’s decision.” That “… case is now under consideration….”
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/07/30/national/Bring-case-to-Thailand-30161496.html
So Bau did NOT go to the Berlin Court seeking to impound THE plane, after being ruled against under German Law in a Munich Court. Instead, Bau’s Schneider shopped around for a lower court that apparently would willing and consciously ignore the “SENIOR” German Court’s ruling. A ruling that declared: Under the law, GERMAN law, GERMAN Courts have no jurisdiction to rule on any such matters as impounding this plane.
That is, Bau went to a backwater lower court, which appears to have been chosen because it would over look the legal niceties of the Munich Senior Court’s ruling. In this manner, the Thais have been sucked into an endless German legal morass.
They faced a lower court consciously willing to take the Bau suit, going against their own higher German Court legal finding. So should the Thai Attorneys challenge this lower Court’s jurisdiction in enforcing the suit, they would have yet more tangled legal involvement.
On the other hand, the Thais also faced the lower Court’s own ‘unique ideas of justice’ in ruling on the suit and impounding THE plane. That is, the German lower court remarkably rules, the evidence shows THE plane is privately owned, NOT Thai Government owned, so if you give us 28.4 million dollars, we will release THE plane to the private party.
Say what?
Hmmm, how do you spell, ransom? Shake-down? Judicial abuse? Ahhh, yes, it’s spelled —
B-A-V-A-R-I-A
A stacked deck, indeed!
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Having just seen another rant by amateur lawyer Sam I do hope BKK lawyer does not spend too much of his valuable time refuting it.
However should BKK lawyer not have given up his interest I would ask if he feels the new PM can quickly act to free victims of the Lese Magesty law, both convicted and awaiting trial?
Could the grounds be that the convictions were unfair due to the secretive process of the kangaroo courts that jailed the victims? Could His Magesty’s comments regarding criticism of himself also be grounds?
If the new government were to do so, as well as freeing some of its unjustly jailed supporters it would make the law a dead letter and allow open discussion of some of the unspoken issues underlying this case such as the costs of the Prince’s planes and the reasons for his long absences from the country where he would be King.
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You do not need the services of a lawyer to tell you what common sense should already have been able to do.
The answer is no. That law is not likely to be affected much by the new PM.
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Portman – Agree. It was the final nail in the coffin, but successive Thai govts (and also the bureaucrats) had been nailing the other nails.
Good point about financing.
The risk from doing business with the Thai govt in a the public-private partnership project is so great that the premium you would have to charge means that you will then likely be investigated for overcharging (ie corruption that the figure was so high). Get large payment up front and never set foot in Thailand seems only solution….
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Sam – 242
I havn’t see any mention of “lower” court in the article, where did you get that from? Furthermore, the senior Munich court certainly has no authority over the “international” matter, its like you are asking Srisaket court to impound President Obama’s position car (whether the car belong to the president or the USA government is another matter), the Srisaket’s court just dont have the power.
Btw, you should take notes that it was the Thai side who didn’t pay the debt.
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BP, I think we will soon see how PPP projects are going to work in Thailand and whether foreigners can be attracted into them, as PPP is the only way that the Thai government will be able to get most of the promised projects done without coming up against Thailand’s govt debt ceiling or crowding out its own tiny debt market which would raise domestic interest rates. Without credible foreign investors I think it would be hard to make the concept work. The foreign involvement will bring in foreign equity and debt capital and credible foreign anchor investors will reduce the funding cost to Thai private investors and government. Major Thai infrastructure players tend to have a lot on their plate already, e.g. Ital Thai that has to come up with massive funding for Burma port project. Personally I wouldn’t touch a foreign company involved in Thai infrastructure with a barge pole.
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Portman – One clarification. PPP deals with the skytrain/underground are certainly possible as they are already established players, but you have the 20 Baht trip plan. When it comes to other infrastructure projects Thai companies are probably better-placed OR having an influential, trust-worthy Thai partner in a JV is needed. Given you can get screwed over, agree with your statement “Personally I wouldn’t touch a foreign company involved in Thai infrastructure with a barge pole.”
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A new update from BangkokPost . . .
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/251083/germany-releases-royal-jet
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Finally an end to the plane saga….
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/251083/germany-releases-royal-jet
“Mr Abhisit told reporters the government has posted the full 38 million euros demanded by Walter Bau company in an account to be controlled by the German court.
As a result, the court released the jet.
Terms of the agreement were unclear, as was the role of Mr Abhisit.”
Similar article already at Thairath but nothing from The Nation.
Looks like a complete backdown by the Thai government. Maybe Abhisit is hoping that this final humiliation is lost under the news of Yingluk’s endorsement, market meltdowns etc etc
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Reuters reports that the Thailand government has deposited 54 million USD or 38 million Euros into an account controlled by the German court in order to secure release of the CP’s 737 airplane. This is far in excess of the actual value of the airplane and if the German court decides to do so, the entire amount might be paid out to the German construction company. This payment was made under the Abhisit/Kasit government just before the new government came into power and explicitly and implicitly contradicts almost every statement made to date in this matter by both Abhisit and Kasit:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/09/us-thailand-germany-plane-idUSTRE7783WM20110809
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Thai government have coughed up. It’s in the Thai English language press too, but here it is without fantasy headlines:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/09/thailand-germany-plane-idUSL3E7J93WJ20110809
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38 million euros……..
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