Thailand’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs normally sees itself as working in the realm of “foreign” matters that require special knowledge, skills, and training. The Ministry has a high number of well-educated officials compared to other ministries as it generally recruits high calibre graduates from Thailand’s top tier universities. The MFA enjoys a professionalism that cannot be easily replicated by other state organs especially in dealing with foreign countries.
Recently, the Thai foreign ministry has released a statement responding to foreign criticism on Thai legal process regarding lese majeste law including Akong and Joe Gordon cases. The full statement is available here.
New Mandala has heard through the grapevine that MFA’s position is well supported by many officials in the ministry. Some took the liberty to exercise freedom of speech to defend their country’s position by commenting on this statement. One comment is striking suggesting that those criticising the Thai legal system on free speech and lese majeste law should also do the same to Western diplomats condemning a group of Thai students of the Sacred Heart College in Chiangmai, who exercised their freedom of expression by dressing like Nazi members in their school’s parade.
Are these diplomatic skills, knowledge and professionalism the Thai MFA officials have cultivated to help lift Thailand’s international image and its neighbourliness within the international community?
Thailand is an exceptional and unique country, culture with a unique and exceptional people and a King whose wife, son and daughters are also unique and exceptional without any faults at all. There is no need, no cause and no reason for any criticism, verbal or written, or for that mater any critical thought when it comes to the King of Thailand and his family.
This is the reason why 100% of all Thais revere and love their King, his wife and their superior children. Any foreign person who does not agree with this Thai way of thinking should mind their own business and keep their mouth shut.
Otherwise, if the foreign person lives in Thailand or visits Thailand, we will arrest them, throw them in a prison cell with 20 other criminals, feed them rice gruel once a day and let them use a hole in the floor for their toilet. End of story.
Highly rated. Quality comment or not?
72 
20
Hear hear Somchai!
Quality comment or not?
12 
10
When one is infatuated with oneself [and makes a career of ensuring one's fellows are likewise infatuated] so as to claim perfection on the one hand, and so easily demonstrate unashamed disgust at those who claim otherwise – that is, those with common sense – it is difficult to see where this mild satire might find a nest in the tree. Abandoned religion, abandoned ethics, abandoned logic…what else is there not to abandon except illusion? Who else is there to imprison but those who prove what is not accepted?
Quality comment or not?
0 
0
Having now read that statement in its fullest detail, I ask whether those in the state, government, private groups and secret “cells” that spread hate speech against those who spoke in a legitimate manner, such as recent anti-US and anti-UN statements and demonstrations about the lese majeste law, are they also going to be held accountable? Is that, in fact, not why the US and UN finally spoke out – t0 to hold the Thai state accountable for its actions or lack thereof? Thailand is a signatory to various UN understakings; it should not cringe from its responsibilities, even when they involve Article 112 and the notorious 2007 Computer Crime Law, when just criticism is leveled against the country. Venting anger and indignation is not the way to needed reform.
Quality comment or not?
1 
0
Somchai – 1
I cannot tell if that is satire or real. That’s the frightening part.
Highly rated. Quality comment or not?
40 
0
Anouvong, 3
Rather cleverly, it’s both. And therefore doubly satirical
Quality comment or not?
14 
0
the scary thing is, that there are actually a few people who actually think like this and assume most Thais are alike in these thoughts, and that they speak for all Thai people.
Quality comment or not?
7 
0
I’m not surprise to see 23 thump ups given to somchai’s foolish comment by contributors on the NM website.
Recently, the american ambassador to thailand expressed her concern about article 112 and recent less majeste cases after thai court jailed a thai-born american for 2.5 years. Of course ‘freedom of speech/expression’ was again used as a cause of concern by the ambassador.
what happens with ‘freedom of speech’ in her beloved country?
…someone was jailed by US court for 33 months for threatening obama in poem!
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/man-charged-with-obama-threat-in-poem-20100220-om7r.html
and
….someone was banned for entry the US for life after sending an abusive e-mail to obama!
http://www.news.com.au/world/british-teen-banned-from-usa-for-life-after-sending-abusive-email-to-barack-obama/story-e6frfkyi-1225922039720
I guess farangs are good at criticising others but they must be blind when it comes to their own.
Quality comment or not?
13 
26
Hmmm….does that official try to suggest that lese majeste/thai legal system = nazi?
Quality comment or not?
7 
5
“I cannot tell if that is satire or real. That’s the frightening part.” … try to go with the satire part and you are mentally in a better state to deal with the Tuls and Mallikas in Thailand.
I found the reference to Nazis quite interesting for one reason. Legally, Nazi symbolism is banned in Germany. As a consequence Nazi punks use “88″ as an abbreviation for “Hail Hitler”, as “H” is the 8th letter in the alphabet.
So, how far will the Thai paranoia go? Not only banning the phrase but also the sum “88″… or as in the Da Torpedo cases also the square roots and cross sums of all things 8sh?
Quality comment or not?
13 
2
Not sure if Nawat thought through the above post. On the kid who is said to be banned from the U.S., this is what is said in most reports: “Not much is known about the email beyond that just that whatever he said to the President was bad enough that the FBI contacted British police after intercepting the message.” The other case involves a White supremacist apparently threatening death.
While not justifying the threats or the bans, I can’t think of anyone on lese majeste having threatened the life of any royal. I also note that the US didn’t wait for the kid to visit the country and arrest him and I also note that the White supremacist, who probably would love the Nazi stuff, was granted bail….
Quality comment or not?
24 
2
Nawat – 6.
The first article you provided described a threat. In the U.S. we have the freedom to express anything. We can say Obama sucks, Obama is crappy, or Obama is a horrible person. In fact, I can write, right now from my apartment in the heartland of the U.S., that Obama is a huge Muslim terrorist socialist fascist anti-Christ. And nothing will happen to me.
But when words become a threat, that is not a work of fiction, it becomes a serious matter. Though in certain times, such as a pre-9/11 America, even “threatening” poems aren’t taken too seriously.
And the second article you provided has its’ reference from The Sun, a U.K. tabloid paper. I highly doubt that is reliable.
Quality comment or not?
27 
6
I think the students dressing up like nazi’s is really interesting.. its almost like a peak into the collective Thai subconscious, sort of like a freudian slip with relation to a personified state subject, that references the very similar structure of absolutist and military government that has appeared throughout history in Thailand. And as many of you know the first ‘external enemy’ of the Thai Nation state, before communism or globalization, was the western ‘colonialist’ powers during the Chulalongkorn era, possibly representing the association with Hitler because, after all, he was the one who challenged the west.
But then again I’m probably just crazy.
Quality comment or not?
6 
0
Nawat:-
‘I guess farangs are good at criticising others but they must be blind when it comes to their own.’
For a very detailed criticism of your line of arguement see…
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2011/12/12/new-mandala-cowardly-stupid-and-lacking-in-wisdom/
RE:- Thai students demonstrating Freedom of expression and Nazism.
‘Freedom of expression’ implies that, when the schoolchildren wore the Nazi costumes, marched the goose-step and did their dances/chants etc… they knew and understood exactly what their uniforms and the Nazi insignia represented.
If the Foreign Office of Thailand really believes that this was the case, and supports their rights to do so, that is scary.
In December 2006, when I was working at a bi-lingual school in BKK, students in the red house decided to use ‘Nazism’ as their sports day theme. The English teachers arrived at school to see that one of the spectator stands had 3 giant swastikas above it. The students wore Nazi uniforms and one of their chants included a badly pronounced version of ‘heil Hitler…’ When we complained to the Thai staff about how culturally inappropriate their theme was, we were told not to think too much, and not to be worried about it. It was ‘fun.’
Afterwards, the 2 teachers who taught M4-6 (the older students responsible for choosing the sports day theme/designing the costumes/dances etc…) decided to spend a couple of lessons teaching their students about WW2, what the Nazis did, and why Nazism is, to most westerners still repugnant.
When the students learnt what the costumes they had wore represented most were very upset. Some cried in class. Others apologised for upsetting the teachers.
I wonder how those students would react now, if they were told that the costumes they wore back then were a demonstration of Thai ‘freedom of expression’ They’d probably be horrified…
Quality comment or not?
13 
5
Will Facebook founder of Mark Zuckerberg be arrested and charged under the Lese Majeste and Computer Crimes laws on his next visit to Thailand a la Chiranuch? Quite an interesting post on the Thai Intelligence blog on this possibility. The comment thread is also worth a look:
http://goo.gl/arRUO
Quality comment or not?
0 
0
Anouvong – 10
I think it’s too convenient to blame it on tabloid paper. The Australian also reported this and cited The Time as their source:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/us-ban-for-schoolboy-luke-angel-who-insulted-barack-obama/story-e6frg6so-1225924234197
This story was also reported by major media outlets in a number of countries.
Ralph – 9
‘I can’t think of anyone on lese majeste having threatened the life of any royal.’ …What about da torpedo and her clips (in Thai) on youtube?
Really?…threatening US president in poem gets a jail term and calling him a prick gets the ban…but at the same time, the US ambassador was calling for ‘freedom of speech’ in another country.
Quality comment or not?
5 
9
Thank you Nawat – you have encapsulated the Thai mindset beautifully ….
Quality comment or not?
17 
2
Actually the way it is depicted is not the reality.
Here is the Poem in Question:
“THE SNIPER”
“As the tyrant enters his cross hairs the breath he takes is deep
His focus is square on the target as he begins to release
A patriot for his people he knows this shot will cost his life
But for his race and their existence it is a small sacrifice
The bullet that he has chambered is one of the purest pride
And the inspiration on the casing reads DIE negro DIE
He breathes out as he pulls the trigger releasing all his hate
And a smile appears upon his face as he seals that monkey’s fate.
The bullet screams toward its mark bringing with it death
And where there was once a face there is nothing left
Two blood covered agents stare in horror and dismay
Looking down toward the ground where their president now lay
Now the screams of one old negro broad pierces thru the air
Setting off panic from every eyewitness that was there
And among all the confusion the hero calmly slips away
Laughing for he knows there will be another negro holiday
By Johnny Spencer
The defendant was belonged to a white supremist group. He declined to assert his First Amendment Rights to protected speech. Nowhere does the poem name Obama.
And note, I can read it, look at what he wrote and make my own determination as to weather or not it was offensive, if it breaches free speech, etc.
The judge felt the phrase
‘Die negro Die.’
Breached free speech and was in fact hate speech.
Since the defendant did not assert First Amendment Protections and plead guilty to one count, the arguments are moot.
Much like the defendant that waives the right to counsel or one who voluntarily admits guilt which is what this defendant did.
Further notes.
Mr Logan was a member of a white supremest group.
The poem appeared in a white supremest website NewSaxon.org, which purports to be “An Online Community by and for White Americans.”
Also note that:
Spencer appeared before U.S. Magistrate Judge Dave Whalin on Friday February 19th, 2010 for a detention hearing. Judge Whalin ordered Spencer released on $25,000 bond, but kept under house arrest at a family member’s home.
So hate speech, not protected speech. Plead Guilty. Was granted bail prior to court case.
Absolutely no similarity to current Lese Majeste cases like Gordon or Arkong.
And further that even within the United States the merits of this particular case are openly discussed and available for public review and comment.
Take for instance the following:
David Hudson, a scholar at the First Amendment Center at Vanderbilt University, said the case poses a difficult question of whether Spencer’s words fall under what is known as the “true threat” exception to the First Amendment. He said the courts have held that a statement may be deemed an illegal threat against the president if a reasonable person hearing or reading it would understand it as “a serious expression of intent to inflict bodily injury.” Jurors are instructed to consider the circumstances in which the statement was made and the reactions of those likely to hear or read it.
William Sharp, a staff attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union of Kentucky, which isn’t involved in the case, said: “If the government’s prosecution is predicated solely on the poem, we believe that there would be a strong argument that the poem, despite its obviously horrific and racist imagery, would be protected speech under the First Amendment. The mere fact that authors write graphically violent imagery, even if born out of racist or otherwise repugnant beliefs, does not automatically remove First Amendment protections and justify criminal prosecution.”
http://whitereference.blogspot.com/2010/02/johnny-logan-spencer-latest-thought.html
So any seeming similarity is at best a royalist apologists attempt to obfuscate the matter.
Seriously, can Thais go to the internet and download the content of Arkong alleged texts or see the actual evidence of Joe Gordon’s translations? Then post them on blogs, and discuss them openly and give opinions as to whether they Constitution lese majeste, criticism, or protected speech.
Is a Thai ACLU like human rights group freely discussing the matter in open?
Highly rated. Quality comment or not?
31 
0
Nawat 6, 13
You should study a bit about the detail of the case rather than simply skim trought the article. There are reasons why the guy was send to jail. First, he was making a life threat, which is illegal anywhere. Second, he was making a racist slur “in” a freakin por-Nazi website, that’s a hate speech and a hate crime. As you might aware, racism is a serious crime in US.
About the MFA members mentioning the event in Chieng Mai is a bit irony. First, the west didn’t “prohibit” the discussion about Nazi and wouldn’t send anyone to jail. The same way Harry was dressing as an SS officer in a halloween party wouldnt sent him to jail, eventhough he was under heavily criticism but that’s about it. Seriously, is that the best “come back” the creme of Thailand education could offer??
Quality comment or not?
15 
2
One thing that the Foreign Ministry forgot to mention in their attack on the criticism of the students dressed as Nazis is that these students were not given 15 or 20 years jail for this indiscretion.
They were merely criticized. If only others could be content with criticizing free expression that they disagree with rather than putting people in jail for it.
Quality comment or not?
17 
0
Georio…
Your thinking isn’t as crazy as you think…
BKK post editorial from a couple of months ago…
http://www.bangkokpost.com/blogs/index.php/2011/10/04/nazism-in-our-brainwashed-upbringing?blog=64
The writer says ‘I don’t think the adults who knew about the
Nazi-themed parade are ignorant about the Holocaust…’
I’m not sure I agree with this bit. The Thai teaching assistant and English Dept. co-ordinator at my school had no idea about it. Sometimes Thai teachers know little more about world events/history/ politics etc. than the students that they teach.
Quality comment or not?
14 
0
HowLowCanWeGo c.8
“So, how far will the Thai paranoia go? Not only banning the phrase but also the sum “88″… or as in the Da Torpedo cases also the square roots and cross sums of all things 8sh?”
Coded language is already being chased down. Prachatai reported that this was a key issue in the trial of Chiranuch
“An affable police major-general, Suraphon Tuanphong, was today’s first witness for the prosecution. The major-general described himself to the court as an expert at deciphering lèse majesté from coded phrases on the Internet.”….
“The honourable judge immediately opined that ‘anyone would know’ these codewords refer to the Royals.”
http://www.prachatai3.info/english/node/2741
But of course not everyone does know and one could use a phrase or a word innocently and find that somebody has interpreted it as lese majeste.
Quality comment or not?
12 
0
And just further to my previous post, Darunee has been convicted again on the basis of codes.
“Daranee’s mention of ‘yellow and blue collars’ and ‘Jitrlada bottled drinking water’ in her speech on 7 June 2008, ‘although not naming any particular names, was a symbolic message insinuating that Their Majesties the King and Queen supported the People’s Alliance for Democracy, which was a verbal offence against Their Majesties,’ the court said.”
http://www.prachatai3.info/english/node/2950
Quality comment or not?
11 
0
Presumably it is the job of the MFA to represent Thailand on the world stage. Thailand cannot have it both ways. If it wants to be a global player then sooner or later it will have to accommodate to international norms.
For example, take the case of the Chiranuch trial which I recently attended. Apart from the rights and wrongs of the case as a whole, it is the specifics of the court procedure which bear scrutiny and wider publicity.
There are no juries in the Thai judicial system , for a start. There is no such thing as a court transcript, the judge instead summarising into a Dictaphone what s/he thinks is relevant at periodic junctures. This is what is typed up.
Witnesses address the judge with their backs to the public. Furthermore, the judge presiding over the case is not alone in coming to a verdict: a committee of judges behind the scenes meet to make the final decision. Some of these judges have been only tangentially involved in the case, if at all.
Quality comment or not?
15 
2
Nawat – 13
I see. Maybe it is credible. Yet, at the same time, you don’t get banned for insulting anyone in the United States. Maybe the young man seriously threatened Obama, the reporting may blow it out of proportion (it does not specify what was said), or maybe his home police/authorities banned him.
Upon looking further, the comments tend to suggest still this article was originally written up by The Sun:
“Did anybody notice that this kid only talked to the “SUN” that’s like reporting breaking news to the Inquirer or NY POST, or MAD magazine. ”
And
“Clearly this article is with a bit of spin.. The SUN is the only paper he’s spoken to.”
http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/15726177#CommentKey:d2ba0458-08f8-43c3-9bd1-3874322d4497
I have never heard this story until you pointed it out to me. I never heard of it.
Again, you don’t get banned for insulting a head of state, or any head of state, in America. Obama is a prick. There, I said it. I’m not going to jail for it.
Well, I’m sure at least the FBI or homeland security will be checking this page out because of that comment. Hope they don’t come kicking down my door, I have an exam in a few hours.
Quality comment or not?
8 
2
Can I add my two cents?
Whether what the US Courts have done is justifiable or not will remain a moot point. I have not read those cases. I do not know all the facts. Thus I cannot comment whether the outcome is justified or not.
The point I would like to make, however, is “Can anyone, be a scholar or a layperson, critique these decisions? Can they seek all the information regarding what has been said, analyse it, comment on it?
The answer is they can.
-Can they analyse the Court’s reasoning behind the outcome publicly, repeating verbatim of what has been said without any fear of being arrested?
The answer is they can.
-Will the society condemn them if they critique these decisions?
Not likely.
-Will these people feel threatened for being outspoken?
Not likely.
-Will there be anyone who witchhunts them, exposes them, embarrasses them, tell them to leave the country, threaten to kill them, swear at them, harass them, fire them from workplaces?
Not likely. But even if there is, they will be able to seek state protection. They will be able to take legal action against people who threaten them, witchhunt them, harass them, or fire them from workplaces.
As for lese majeste cases, can anyone, be a scholar or a layperson, critique these decisions?
Can they seek full information about what has been said?
Can they repeat verbatim of what has been said?
Will the society condemn them if they criticise these decision?
Will these people feel threatened for being outspoken?
More importantly,
Will there be anyone who witchhunts them, exposes them, embarrasses them, tell them to leave the country, threaten to kill them, swear at them, harass them, fire them from workplaces?
And most importantly,
If the answer to the previous question is “yes”, can these people seek state protection or take legal actions against those who harass them, fire them from workplaces, threaten them, or tell them to leave the country? All of these are blatant discrimination based on political opinion according to the International Law.
The point I am trying to make is: the Courts can be wrong. But can you, as a citizen, point the finger to them saying the decision is wrong, explain to them why you think it is wrong, without any fear of prosecution or harassment?
The answer in is, in the USA you can. Can you do this in Thailand?
Quality comment or not?
21 
0
Kerrie – 18
Sometimes Thai teachers know little more about world events/history/ politics etc. than the students that they teach.
It’s probably more than just sometimes. In “The Ambiguous Allure of the West” Thongchai Winichakul informs us that:
Thai scholarship is overwhelmed by local as opposed to global discourses…In Thai schools and universities Thai people learn more and become much better informed about Thai arts, literature and Buddhism than they do about the religions and cultures of the West, or even of their Asian neighbours…
Thais do not read the world’s (i.e. “Western”) literary canons as much as they do those of Thai literature; and they do not learn of anyone else’s history other than their own.
Quality comment or not?
7 
0
Sam…
Not only that but the Thai’s own view of history would be seen as being very distorted by their Asian neighgbours as well as by the west.
Thai students learn about ancient battles with Burma and the Khmers, and memorise names of Kings and kingdoms. They don’t (or didn’t at the high school in Nan where I taught in 2008-9…. I don’t know what the syllabus of the school in BKK where the red house decided to spend a day dressed as ‘Nazis’ was like…) study about ‘recent’ 20th century events like WW2, the cold war (and the way it was played out in the region in Korea/Vnam/Laos…) and the Khmer Rouge… the things that we in the west would probably see as being some of the more important events of that era.
The most a former student in Nan knew about Thailands involvement in WW2 was that the Japanese were ‘invited’ to build a railway there (I guess this fits in with the popular narrative that ‘Thailand was never colonised’ etc etc….)
It would be easy to start a huge, off topic rant here about one of the the big failing of the Thai education system, the way that Thai students aren’t taught/encouraged to analyse / think critically about the materials/topics they study in class etc etc etc… but I won’t..
One time I took the sunday morning tourist train to Sai Yok / Kanchanaburi. On the way back the train stops at a small station 10 minutes walk away from one of the cemetries where some of the allied POWs and people who died building the infamous death railway are buried. I remember hearing one Thai girl ask someone why the ‘farang’ soldiers chose to be buried there???
At times people’s ignorance of world events is shocking… I know this isn’t restricted to Thailand (most of my English friends aren’t that interested in current affairs/history…) but what’s different is the way that some Thai people seem to take such pride their insular outlook/ignorance… Its almost like they see it as a key part of what makes them ‘Thai…’
Quality comment or not?
10 
0
For all the bashing that Thailand’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs is getting from this New Mandala thread, we must not lose sight that this year 2011 at least, it was this ministry that shone the brightest.
Because the only ministry that was able to deliver actual measurable results for the Yingluck administration was Thailand’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs. All other ministry had failed and failed miserably . . . to deliver on Yingluck’s campaign promises.
But the Minister of Foreign Affairs delivered . . . a Thai passport for Thaksin Shinawatra. That by the way, is the only achievement of the Yingluck administration in Y2011.
Quality comment or not?
0 
1
As a Thai, reading the New Mandala, and this thread in particular, always brings the feeling of sahme, guilt and being humiliated. But somehow I can’t help but feel that we rightly deserve all the criticisms.
This morning I heard a news report on Thai TV (Channel 3) saying that according to the BBC, an unprcedented massive crowd in North Korea mourns the death of its leader Kim Jong Il. The news went on to say that the reason for much reverence given to the N. Korean leader is the huge propaganda being broadcasted on national TVs on a daily basis. If I didn’t know it was the news about North Korea, I would have thought the BBC was talking about my beloved country.
Quality comment or not?
19 
1
Poor Thai – 26
I shared your sentimental, I’ve a feeling that when the old man die we would see something pretty similar.
Quality comment or not?
5 
2
Link to Matichon article in which Police General Vasit defends Thailand’s present Lese Majeste situation and the recent 20 year sentence handed down for 4 text messages and attacks U.S. Ambassador Kristie Kenney and the U.N. Not too different from Somchai’s point of view on Lese Majeste in comment #1….
http://www.prachatai3.info/english/node/2957?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+prachataienglish+%28Prachatai+in+English%29
http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1324391460&grpid=no&cat…
==================================
Vasit: We have to fight even the U.S. and UN
Wed, 21/12/2011 – 23:55 | by prachatai
Pol Gen Vasit Dejkunjorn, former palace police chief and former Deputy Police Chief, has published an article in Matichon in response to recent comments by the US Ambassador and the United Nations Office of Human Rights on Thailand’s lèse majesté law.
Vasit wrote that he was not really surprised to hear that Kristie Kenney, the US Ambassador to Thailand, and Ravina Shamdasani, spokesperson for the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, had ‘come out to make comments critical of the Thai court in the case of Amphon Tangnoppakul who was sentenced to 20 years in prison for lèse majesté.’
He was not surprised, in the case of Kenney, because he had studied in an American university where he had several American friends. And as he has known many more Americans, he is aware that a number of Americans know and understand other peoples and countries only superficially, no matter how highly educated they are or how many degrees they have got from universities.
Citing Kenney’s degrees from various universities, Vasit said that he doubted whether those universities’ curricula had provided her with enough understanding about foreign countries including, in particular, Southeast Asian countries, and made her sufficiently aware that ‘the Thais’ feelings toward their King are completely different from those of Americans toward the President of the United States of America.’
Considering her record of having served only in European and Latin American countries and the Philippines, he assumed that the Ambassador would never have had time to really study and get to know Thailand and the Thai people.
As for Ravina Shamdasani, he said that he could not find her record, except that she is a human rights advocate, ‘seeming quite young and looking Indonesian or Malay.’
‘However, both Kenney and Shamdasani may not know that the Thai King has been enthroned by succession in the dynasty, not by election for a four-year term like the American president,’ he said.
‘More importantly, the King is the institution which unifies the whole Thai nation and guarantees the continuity of the rule which has lasted for over 700 hundred years,’ he said.
He believed that Kenney and Shamdasani did not know much about Thailand’s criminal law, otherwise they would have known that lèse majesté offences were not like offences against ordinary people, but were against national security.
Citing that people are not aware of the fact that ‘all constitutions of the Kingdom of Thailand stipulate that the King shall be enthroned in a position of revered worship and shall not be violated [and] no person shall expose the King to any sort of accusation or action,’ he said that they therefore had come out to criticize or reproach the Thai court’s handling and ruling as inconsistent with universal standards on freedom of expression and in breach of international agreements on human rights.
‘This even goes so far as to demand the amendment of the lèse majesté law,’ he said.
‘I want to inform the US Embassy in Thailand and the UN’s Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights that I well understand how humans are entitled to rights, but I also understand that any human has duties as well,’ he said.
He said that, ‘to defame, insult, or disparage those worshipped by other people is the exercise of rights and freedoms beyond the boundaries any person should use and is a dereliction of duty or betrayal by that person.’
‘Especially in Thailand where the King is ultimately loved, respected and worshipped by the Thai people, such acts are deemed the ultimate offence which is not forgivable by the Thai people,’ he said.
He took note that Kenney and Shamdasani’s acts took place when insults to the King were rampant on the internet, as if they had never been aware of them or had never been informed by their staff.
‘Or is it their intention to join in the fray?’ Vasit asked.
‘A certain number of ungrateful Thai people are trying to destroy democracy with the King as Head of State. If the US or the UN are of this opinion or support this, they should know that the Thai people who worship and want to protect the King are ready to be their enemy and will fight both the US and the UN,’ he said.
Quality comment or not?
12 
1
I once related the story of the Thai Ambassador to the US not delivering his country’s declaration of war to the State Department on 25 Jan 1942, so the US did not reciprocate. Not so in the UK, where the declaration was delivered.
There was a sharp intake of breath from the educated group of Thais I was with, accompanied by a mixture of quizzical and blank stares. The denials followed quickly – “no, no, no – this is not possible – you don’t understand…. it never happened” I am quite sure that for the all of them, it was the first time they had ever heard it.
Quality comment or not?
8 
0
True that a nuanced understanding of history is lacking among most Thai teachers and their students but the same applies in many countries, including the US where I had direct experience teaching US students at university level.
I spend a good deal of my time offering alternative versions or even versions of history unavailable in Thai schools although of course one has to be careful how such versions are scripted even with one’s own children. However, when I see that my nephews and neices who live in countries other than Thailand I realize Thais are not quite as non-global in their understanding of world histories as they are made out to be.
My children (at least my older daughter) via school know something about Nazism as they do about Communism although in the latter instance the understanding is not one that makes the subtle link between the rise of communism and national liberation movements and the subsequent demise of communism. However, through travel to places like Vietnam (not just to Hoi An), Lao PDR (not just to Luang Prabang), Cambodia (not just to Siem Reap) and China (not just to Kunming) our children have developed a somewhat keener appreciation of at least sub-regional history.
That does not mean the Disneyworlds or Universal Studios of the world (well both are now in the region) do not also attract children: of course they do. But living in Thailand even if the schools fall short in terms of developing more nuanced understandings of histories that Thais themselves have played a role in shaping its geographical location renders Thailand a great place to vist other places where much of the histroy of the latter part of the last century was made and is still contunuing to be made.
Quality comment or not?
4 
0
Re: Jayzee #29.
That is why it is not a stretch to say that Thailand was an ally of the Third Reich during WWII. While they did not sign the Tripartite Pact, they did sign an alliance with Japan. The leader, Phibun was not installed by the Japanese, so it is not like Puyi installed in Manchukuo.
After the war, Phibun was tried as a war criminal, found guilty and executed . NOT! The Thai army brought him back from exile and made him Prime Minister again.
Quality comment or not?
3 
0
30 Shane
True…
People can educate their own children and encourage them through travel etc. to take an interest in the world around them. But how many Thais want/are able to do what you do? How many of the thousands who book coach tours to Vietnam see anything other than the quaint little shops in Hoi Ann, the tombs in Hue and the beach at Danang ? How many go there with the intention of learning something about the past rather than looking for and doing all things ‘sanuk’, jumping back on the coach and heading to the next place for more 5 minute photostops and ‘fun’ stuff…
I know this is going a bit off topic but I think that whilst many westerners who travel to this part of the world of try to learn something about the places they visit, when some Thai’s visit Vietnam/Laos etc. even if they do manage to venture off the little hitlist of places you mention, their visits just seem to reinforce their own sense of nationalist pride and their own ideas that Thailand and all things Thai are superior to anything and anywhere else….
For instance, here are some comments a group of Thai people who visited Danang in March/April 2011 made.
Vnams so dirty, people drop rubbish on the floor… Thailands so clean… Vnams so poor, so undeveloped, the houses are ugly, the cities have no history, the foods not tasty, its too cold (one I found hilarious since the people who visited Danang usually complained about Nan in March/April being far too hot…), there’s no culture, the beach isn’t beautiful, Phukets nicer… (me – have you ever been to Phuket? Thai person:- no, but I’ve seen pictures and it’s more beautiful and not cold and windy…) People are rude, unfriendly, they cheat you, things are expensive, there’s nothing beautiful to buy…
I could go on forever. All these people did was moan and constantly compare where they were to what things were like in Thailand. When I asked someone what they liked about Vnam they said ‘I don’t like it that much. There’s nothing interesting.’
In case you are wondering why, when they had such negative opinions the Thai group were so eager to travel there, it was a heavily subsidised trip, a ‘seuk sar do ngarn’ as government officers refer to them. The teachers and their friends, family and anyone else who wanted to go there cheaply were supposed to have been learning about Vietnam and it’s culture, but the organisers of the trip used their budget to book a standard tourist coach tour.
One of the people in the group, an English teacher asked in English how I could stay there OK, and said that I must spend every day wishing that I was back in Thailand and eating Thai food. She couldn’t understand that I enjoyed it, or the reasons why I did.
Anyway back to the (slightly off) topic…
How many people know that the history they are taught (and taught to accept without question) is at times, different to the historical narratives taught in other countries? And when there are differences, how many people try to find out and learn about alternative narratives of historical events ?
One thing I always found strange and very hard to understand during the time that I stayed in Thailand is the way that the official versions of events are believed and accepted even when people’s own personal experiences contradict what they are officially told/read in the newspapers etc…
Quality comment or not?
5 
0
Kerrie I don’t doubt there are many Thais who fit nicely into the categories you have described but that does not mean all do….apart from my own family I have traveled with people from Isarn (they do make up nearly one-third of Thailand’s population) through the Lao PDR and their observations and comments are not the same as those you traveled to Hoi An, Danang etc. It sounds positively horrible although quite predictable that Thais – indeed almost any group of people traveling this way – might make such comments.
Thailand’s “developed” aka “over-developed” social ecology of places such as Phuket, Trang and Koh Samui are of course not the same as what Vietnam has to offer. As I know firsthand from traveling between either Hanoi or Ho Chi Minh every week Vietnamese look upon places such as Pattaya as a mecca of sorts: most cannot afford Hua Hin.
This too is a bit off the point but I think the point I was trying to make is to avoid over-genralizing about what Thais or indeed any group of people know. The same of course applies to a person like myself because of course there are “Westerners” who read Lonley Planet Guide and become instant experts on whether they go although in their defence I sometimes think they have a more subtle understanding of many socieites and their peoples than people who work for international development agencies: this latter group of people I know a lot about.
Anyway it is matter of pride that even my 5 year old son can talk about the traffic in Hanoi or the handful of wealthy Vietnamese who can drive around in Rolls Royces and similar. In fact in a strange sort of a way I think he is learning more about inequality in Vietnam than in Thailand although in Thailand it is in your face if you want to experience it.
I hope in future you can travel with some more interesting Thais than you have in the past…..
Quality comment or not?
2 
0
28 Norman
I’m not so sure about Somchai’s ‘comment’ you refer to – it would seem he’s taking the piss, so to speak. If not, the brainwashing he received from his earliest years (assuming he is actually a Thai person) has worked a treat. The latter, however, is rather improbable for if we leave aside HM and his second daughter, where does one (in private, at least) hear any genuine praise for other members of the immediate family – in particular the mother, the son, or the unfortunate Clubhornlips? Many dyed-in-the wool monarchists, not to mention a vast swathe of the general public, cannot stomach this unholy trio of skidmarks. Naturally enough most people, in the interest of self-preservation, keep such ‘treasonous’ thoughts to themselves.
And why, in heaven’s name, are you posting, at great length Pol Gen Vasit’s comments without providing any of your own? The dreaded ‘party line’ , as we’re all too aware, is already available 24/7 via all media platforms in addition to the ever stimulating, thought provoking educational system.
One also wonders who was providing all those ‘thumbs up’ in the ‘Quality comment or not’ section? More piss takers?
Quality comment or not?
4 
1
Shane 33…
I agree with your points.
I wasn’t meaning to suggest that all Thais think and behave like the coach party I described. Though the teachers in the group I mentioned were supposed to have been going there to learn about Vietnam and its culture. If they can’t find anything positive to say about the country, how can we expect them to teach their pupils about its good points?
Fortunately I didn’t have to travel with those people (I was staying in Danang at the time) but my friend did. She taught at their school and was stuck on the coach with them for 4 days.
Vietnamese look upon places such as Pattaya as a mecca of sorts:
True… and that is one thing that, when I was there, I could never and probably will never be able to understand.
Yeah, young children understand a lot more than adults give them credit for. Thats one reason I used to love (and still miss) teaching primary school aged kids…
Quality comment or not?
2 
0
‘ As a Thai, reading the New Mandala, and this thread in particular, always brings the feeling of shame, guilt and being humiliated. But somehow I can’t help but feel that we rightly deserve all the criticisms. ‘
There is no need to don the hairshirt. Thais are no better, no worse than any other of the world’s peoples.
I am an American and, as my country is now acting the terrorist aggressor world-wide I feel the same revulsion at the actions of my government that you do at yours. Certainly my nation is causing more suffering, trouble, and sorrow worldwide than is Thailand. And we Americans have much more control over our government than do Thais, so are more responsible for the crimes and excesses of our government than are Thais.
But comparing governments’ actions, the one with the other, with the idea of excusing one government’s crimes by citing another government’s worse crimes is a fallacious argument, although constantly resurrected. It’s very attractive to focus on someone else’s government’s crimes and hypocrisy and to remove focus from one’s own.
Of course, to the extent that any one of us has control over any government’s actions it is over our ‘own’ government’s that we have some… and over other governments that we have none at all.
So, from my point of view, blaming Thais for actions of the Thai government is a phoney exercise. Blaming Americans for our government’s actions is more to the point in my case, as an American the American government is the only one I can hope to have any influence over. And I have not had any to date.
It’s important to point out the failings of any and all governments, corporations, churches, NGOs, … institutions of any sort, and of the responsible people within for not ending those failings, but it seems a waste of time to feel guilt, shame, and humiliation for those actions. Better to identify the regimes in which one has any standing and to work to remedy those regimes’ failings. That is a never-ending job and leaves little time for guilt, shame, or humiliation.
Don’t waste time on those feelings, work instead to repeal Article 112, to free Thai political prisoners, to roll-back the legal environment to 18 September 2006 and to re-do the decisions taken since… in Thailand merely publicly and vocally supporting those positions is a ‘revolutionary act’, one with potentially great consequences.
Thailand is now like a super-saturated solution, with the knowledge of what’s-really-what still willfully suspended, but in such high concentration that seed-crystals spontaneously forming will soon bring a rain of crytalization that will quickly and completely change the political environment.
And after the phase change, of course, everyone will be found to have been against the brutality of the former regime, so there will be no need for guilt, shame, or humiliation.
Quality comment or not?
13 
1