Yesterday, the Khana Nitirat, the group of seven lecturers at Thammasat University who work to put law in the service of the people, held a public seminar on the nullifcation of the 2007 Constitution. The Sriburapha Auditorium at Thammasat University was overflowing with people listening inside, and exchanging ideas, browsing books and doing political performance art outside. Read reports summarizing the seminar here, here, and here, and view video of the seminar here, here, and here.
Yet rather than write about the important proposal of the Khana Nitirat here, what I want to do instead is to flag the threatening response that their work has generated. In particular, I turn to the comments section of an article about yesterday’s seminar posted on the online version of ผู้จัดการ/Manager newspaper. The article was the ผู้จัดการ/Manager take on the seminar and the Khana Nitirat proposal. The comments are full of unconstructive misreadings of the Khana Nitirat proposal, but more than that, a virulent thread of hatred.These comments do not seem to be in the interest of furthering debate about democracy, rule of law, and monarchy, but rather shutting it down, by making the possible risks for entering it grave and unpredictable.
Perhaps if I read the comments on ผู้จัดการ/Manager articles more frequently, I would be inured to comments which suggest that people be murdered or burned alive. But I do not, and I am not, so I offer a catalogue of the comments posted, circa 12 noon Thailand time on 23 January 2012.
At that time, there were a total of 227 comments. While several comments took the proposal of the Khana Nitirat seriously, many comments chose to forgo engagement and instead engage in harassment and threats against the members of the Khana Nitirat. Of primary concern here, commentators cast the members of the Khana Nitirat as less than human, called for the involvement of the military, called for surveillance, called for their deaths in a vague sense, and called for murderous vigilante violence against them. Many other comments suggested that the members of the Khana Nitirat were not-Thai and should leave the country. In what follows, the number in [ ] refers to the number of the comment which corresponds to the content noted.
Less than human
• Comparison of the members of the Khana Nitirat with dogs [50]
• Members of the Khana Nitirat are aliens [23]
• Members of the Khana Nitirat are not human [186]
Call for involvement of the military:
• What are soldiers doing about this [31, 110]
• Call for a coup [148]
• Where is the Army’s pride [150]
Call for surveillance:
• For the names, addresses, phone numbers, and maps of the house location of the members of the Khana Nitirat to be published [41, 86,117]
• Listing of the names of the members of the Khana Nitirat with the admonition to remember it well [159]
• Request for other commentators to be the eyes and ears, i.e., to be an informal surveillance network [78]
Call for vigilante and/or state violence, including murder:
• Soldiers should disappear the members of the Khana Nitirat by throwing them from helicopters [45]
• Along with their families, the members of the Khana Nitirat should be necklaced and burned alive in front of their houses [44]
• Members of the Khana Nitirat should die a violent death (ตายโหง) [4,10]
• Members of the Khana Nitirat should be beheaded [29]
• Members of the Khana Nitirat should be beheaded and their heads put on stakes outside the front of the entrance to Thammasat University [85]
• Ajarn Worachet should be executed [111]
• Take care of the members of the Khana Nitirat with an eye for eye, a tooth for a tooth [105]
• General death threats [24, 37, 79, 102, 153]
• Thammasat University should be burned down [111]
• Trash should be thrown at the members of the Khana Nitirat [179]
To be clear: my point is not to suggest that the proposal of the Khana Nitirat should not be engaged critically. But the comments posted on ผู้จัดการ/Manager are neither critical nor about engagement. They are about calling for violence. In what universe is it appropriate to call for someone whose ideas one disagrees with to be beheaded and their head put on a stake outside a university? This is an attempt to intimidate and threaten the members of the Khana Nitirat, as well as shut down, not open, criticism and conversation. I would further ask, what does this mean – for the present and future of politics, about the possibility of the rule of law, about the protection of human rights, and about the status of the freedom of expression in Thailand? Does dissent – no matter the form – remove one’s claim to be human? In the present political moment, perhaps.
Elizabeth Fitzgerald is the pen name of an observer of Thai politics and history. She can be reached at lizziefitzy@gmail.com.
These comments are evidences that the Thai Royals should not be respected. If they are really good people like they claim they are, if they see their fanatics behaving this way, they must do something to stop these behaviour. Yet they don’t. They acquiesce to it, they do nothing when their fanatics are threatening others, inciting violence etc for the purpose of protecting them. This means they support this kind of behaviour. And for that, they deserve zero respect from me.
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Yes, Elizabeth, you do need to read this site more often. Such comments are par for that course. It seems that “human” is a term reserved for persons who are ultra-royalist and ultra-nationalist. A bit like the mid-1970s.
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Very worrying. My immediate reaction to this was to imagine a civil war. Yes, it’s a big jump from message board hate to calls over a radio for murder, but with feelings for such extreme actions expressed like that, it momentarily didn’t seem impossible.
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Shade of October 6, 1976. Most people don’t even know what transpired then and the significance of that date. Those who were told or found out later were appalled. Yet history is repeating itself. You cannot learn from history if that page was torn off as if it never existed.
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One can’t give up hope for these hotheads. Privileged people who find themselves trapped in a corner often resort to bad language. But rarely does it spill over into all-out total violence because rich people simply have too much to lose in a sustained military campaign of mutual destruction. Only desperate poor people do that.
As an example, the average privileged and educated white South African voiced similar sentiments in the 1970s and 1980s at a time when the ANC was threatening white dominance. Yet in the 1992 referendum some 69% of them voted “yes” to reforms that they knew would lead to a voluntary capitulation and handover of power. I was one of them.
Violent expression is often the last desperate gambol of those who feel threatened by looming change. Sometimes that’s all it is..sometimes not. The ‘amart’ sense the writing is on the wall, and this violent expression is just a symptom of it (I pray).
There is still some hope that good sense and calm heads will prevail in Thailand. I expect there will be more popular uprisings similar to May 2010 as frustration grows at the slow pace of change, which will no doubt be brutally doused by the elite and their uniformed henchmen. But I can’t see this spoilt generation of Bangkok’s rich kids resorting to total civil war in a bloody campaign that will result in the destruction of their economy and lifestyles. Like the equally bellicose white South Africans, they simply have too much to lose.
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Of primary concern here, commentators cast the members of the Khana Nitirat as less then human, called for the involvement of the military, called for surveillance, called for their deaths in a vague sense, and called for murderous vigilante violence against them.
And yet, the vast majority of those commentators would consider themselves to be devout defenders of Buddhism.
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Does the Computer Crimes Act prescribe any penalties for incitement to murder and arson via online postings?
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These people are insane, they wanted the history of the past reappears again hanging people by the tree, tossing people to the fire just like what those animals did then but they forgot the time now is 2012 and such act will not be allow to happen again and they are only the minority and if they start something up, it will be a civil war they’re starting up and the world will condemn the greens if they dare come out, sanction will be made to Thailand from round the world. It ain’t going be as easy as they thought and they will put our Monarchy in danger using them as the tool.
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@Thomas Hoy asks: “Does the Computer Crimes Act prescribe any penalties for incitement to murder and arson via online postings?”
If you threaten, defame, insult, attack (either verbally or physically), witchhunt anyone who shows that they don’t like the King, you will never be charged. Instead, those who has been threatened, defamed, insulted, attacked (either verbally or physically), witchhunted, will be the one who will be charged because they don’t love the King.
Voila…land of Smiles
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And there will always be those adding fuel to the flames from a distance as can be seen from Thanong Khanthong’s very recent tweets:
“Now with the emergence of the Nitirat Group, Thammsat University is turning for the worst — fatefully.
Both the students and the faculty members at Thammasat University have lost their way, failing to become a voice of the society.”
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> “commentators cast the members of the Khana Nitirat as less then human”
I can’t parse this sentence. Was the (anon) author going for “human then less”?
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The Chinese element, so evident in this year’s gaudy New Year, seems part and parcel of the drum beat of alleged worship while ripping off the treasury.
The Manager Online comments were indeed par for the course as far as they are concerned. I wrote to them in Thai and English suggesting they put a couple of foreigners on their ASTV program who have a different idea about Article 112 and human rights…of course, no response.
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Go to the Facebook “นิติไท ร่วมใจปกป้องสถาบัน”. You’ll find many more and uglier threats than suggested in this article.
One picture in early Jan 2012 is the picture of traditional execution (cutting head by sword) and a smaller insert is the crop picture of the head of Aj Piyabutr, a member of the Nitirat group, on the ground. A caption reads “Whoever is rebellious (Kabot), Execute him.”
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@ Jon Wright ( Comment # 12), The phrase should read “less than human.” My error.
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@14: Isn’t that a quote from Prajadhipok?
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stuart says –
“Privileged people who find themselves trapped in a corner often resort to bad language. But rarely does it spill over into all-out total violence because rich people simply have too much to lose in a sustained military campaign of mutual destruction. Only desperate poor people do that.”
Really?
So what was about all those death squads in Central America in the 1980s and the horrific civil wars that resulted just to protect a small, wealthy group from a bonafide peasant uprising?
You also cite South Africa. As I remember it, it was only after decades of violence, bombings, massacres and 1000s of deaths that the privileged white South Africans suddenly realised that they had to make peace.
And then let’s get onto Thailand. How many more students hanging from trees, massacres and coups will it take to convince the world how brutal these people are and what they will do to secure and maintain power?
Your comment is certainly rational but in Thailand, just like elsewhere, power groups tend to often operate completely irrationally and very very often assure their own destruction.
If history teaches the world one lesson it is that.
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On the theme of dehumanising political opponents a long-time reader offers this image from the ASTV Manager magazine. The chap who is pictured is anti-lese majeste campaigner Worachet Pakeerat. Some details on how he fits in are available here.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
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As anyone done a similar cataloging of the content of the Thai language anti-monarch sites? As anyone here bothered to looks at what the content is that has been removed from Youtube? The name calling and ugly, obscene insults are just as prevalent there as in these Manager comments.
I’m for a revision of the LM that allows for reasonable political discussion, the problem is so much of what is out there is along exactly the same lines as what is being proclaimed here as something only “royalist” or “elites” engage in. Unfortunately, that is just not true.
.
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Andrew (17)
I can’t comment on Central America because I haven’t lived there nor have I read much about it. But I can comment on South Africa where I was the news editor at Johannesburg’s major daily newspaper during the time period in question. The “decades of violence, bombings, massacres and 1000s of deaths” you refer to were almost all within the black community – the so-call “black-on-black violence” that beset the nation from around 1985 through to 1996. The white community was almost totally isolated from the effects of ‘The Struggle”. There were indeed several limpet mine bombings in Johannesburg CBD in the late 1980s that were targeted at whites, and also some isolated tragedies such as the awful St James Church and Observatory massacres. But under the State of Emergency laws from 1985 onwards most white South Africans had barely an inkling of what was going on in the townships. My own news reporters had to operate under severe censorship.
The capitulation of the minority white community came about for a number of reasons, and was quite complex. International pressure, sanctions, and our increasing discomfort at being branded “the polecats of the western world” had a much greater impact than bombs and bullets. We certainly didn’t engage in a civil war of the nature I was talking about in my comment on Thailand. It was the threat of a bloodbath that forced our hand. In fact, our standing army – at the time the 5th largest in the world – was almost completely at rest other than some relatively low-key operations in the townships and the Angolan border. Our choice was to either hand it all over on a silver plate or risk everything we had in a bloodbath. History records the verdict.
people aren’t much different from place to place. I know quite a number of so-called priviledged “hi-so” Thais and I do not believe they have the appetite for all-out civil war with the peasants. The rich are far too selfish to die for Thailand. They’ll look after their businesses first, if they know what’s good for them. Just like white South Africans did.
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Nick #20.
Can I post a link to a site with a strikingly similar dehumanizing image of the King?
Last time I included actual LM content, you deleted the post.
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For general information, I am sending along this draft translation of Worachet (Enlightened Jurist leader) biography from Thai Wikipedia. There has been some interest in his bio. Not a lot of meat here but it’s a start.
DRAFT TRANSLATION
วรเจตน์ ภาคีรัตน์
จากวิกิพีเดีย สารานุกรมเสรี
Worachet Pakeerut
From Thai Wikipedia th.wikipedia.org/wiki/วรเจตน์_ภาคีรัตน์
รศ.ดร.วรเจตน์ ภาคีรัตน์ เป็นอาจารย์ภาควิชากฎหมายมหาชน คณะนิติศาสตร์ มหาวิทยาลัยธรรมศาสตร์ มีชื่อเสียงจากเป็นนักวิชาการของคณะนิติราษฎร์
Professor Dr. Worachet Pakeerut is a professor of Public Law, Faculty of Law, at Thammasat University. He is known as an academic with the Enlightened Jurist group.
1 ประวัติ Personal history
2 ประวัติการทำงาน Work history
3 รางวัล Awards
4 อ้างอิง References
5 แหล่งข้อมูลอื่น Other sources of Information
ประวัติ Personal history
วรเจตน์ ภาคีรัตน์ เกิดใน จังหวัดพระนครศรีอยุธยา มีพี่น้อง 4 คน บิดาเป็นอดีตนายสถานีรถไฟบ้านม้า วรเจตน์ชื่นชอบการเมืองการปกครองมาตั้งแต่เด็ก จนมีความคิดที่จะเรียนรัฐศาสตร์และนิติศาสตร์ ชื่นชอบนวนิยาย อาทิ มังกรหยก ฤทธิ์มีดสั้น
Worachet Pakeerut was born in the province of Ayuthaya, has four siblings, his father a former rail station head at Baan Ma station. Worachet has been fond of politics from childhood, motivating him to study political science and law. He likes novels, especially Monkon Yoke, The Legend of the Condor Heroes, [where] prowess with daggers [was part of the theme.]
วรเจตน์ จบการศึกษาระดับชั้นอนุบาล จนถึงชั้นประถมศึกษาโรงเรียนจิระศาสตร์วิทยา จังหวัดพระนครศรีอยุธยา มัธยมศึกษาตอนต้นจากโรงเรียนหอวัง นั่งรถไฟไปกลับทุกวัน โดยลงที่สถานีรถไฟบางเขน แล้วต่อด้วยรถเมล์ไปโรงเรียนหอวัง มัธยมศึกษาตอนปลายจากโรงเรียนเตรียมอุดมศึกษา[1] ปริญญาตรีจาก คณะนิติศาสตร์ มหาวิทยาลัยธรรมศาสตร์ เมื่อปี พ.ศ. 2530 ปริญญาโทและปริญญาเอก นิติศาสตรมหาบัณฑิต มหาวิทยาลัยเกิร์ทธิงเก้น ประเทศเยอรมนี ด้วยทุนอานันทมหิดล จบด้วยคะแนนสูงสุด
Worachet completed primary and elementary school at Jirasart Wittaya School in Ayuthaya province, and junior high school at Horwang School. He rode the train back and forth daily, getting off at Bang Kaen station, then connecting with the mail train to Horwang School. He completed high school at the preparatory school and bachelor’s at the faculty of law of Thammasat University in 1987, master’s and Ph.D. and Master of Law at the University of Göttingen, Germany, with an Ananda Mahidol Scholarship. He received the highest marks.
ประวัติการทำงาน
Work history
[Translator’s note: At a press conference on TV today, 25 January 2012, Thailand's army commander-in-chief General Prayuth Chan-ocha, once more denounced the Nitirat group, citing as one of the shortfalls of its membership lack of experience, youth, and never really managing anything.]
นิติกร ที่สำนักงานกฎหมาย บริษัทปูนซิเมนต์ไทย
อาจารย์ประจำคณะนิติศาสตร์ มหาวิทยาลัยธรรมศาสตร์
รองศาสตราจารย์ประจำคณะนิติศาสตร์ มหาวิทยาลัยธรรมศาสตร์
หัวหน้าหลักสูตรประกาศนียบัตรบัณฑิตทางกฎหมายมหาชน คณะนิติศาสตร์ มหาวิทยาลัยธรรมศาสตร์
รองผู้อำนวยการโครงการอบรมประกาศนียบัตรกฎหมายมหาชน คณะนิติศาสตร์ มหาวิทยาลัยธรรมศาสตร์
อาจารย์พิเศษ คณะนิติศาสตร์ มหาวิทยาลัยรังสิต [2]
Lawyer with the Siam Cement Company
Lecturer with the Faculty of Law, Thammasat University
Head of the Public Law Graduate Degree program, Thammasat University
Deputy Director, Public Law Training Program, Faculty of Law, Thammasat University
Special professor, Faculty of Law, Rangsit University
รางวัล
Awards
เกียตินิยมอันดับสอง [Thai spelling corrected to เกียรตินิยมอันดับสอง] นิติศาสตร์บัณฑิต มหาวิทยาลัยธรรมศาสตร์
ได้รับรางวัลเรียนดีทุนภูมิพลในฐานะบัณฑิตที่ได้คะแนนสูงสุดของคณะนิติศาสตร์ประจำปีการศึกษา ๒๕๓๓
ได้รับพระราชทานทุนมูลนิธิอานันทมหิดลให้ไปศึกษาวิชานิติศาสตร์ กฎหมายมหาชน ณ สหพันธ์สาธารณรัฐเยอรมัน
สำเร็จการศึกษานิติศาสตรมหาบัณฑิตซึ่งเป็นคะแนนสูงสุดตามหลักสูตร Magister luris ของมหาวิทยาลัยเกิร์ทธิงเก้น
Second class honors, Bachelor of Law, Thammasat University
Received Bhumibol Scholarship Award as a graduate with the highest marks in the Faculty of Law for the year 1990.
Received royal funding from Ananda Mahidol Scholarship to study public law at
The Federal Republic of Germany.
Graduated Magister luris with highest marks
อ้างอิง References
^ ศิษย์เก่าที่เราภูมิใจ วรเจตน์ ภาคีรัตน์ โรงเรียนจิระศาสตร์วิทยา
^ อาจารย์พิเศษ คณะนิติศาตร์ มหาวิทยาลัยรังสิต
Alumni we are proud of , Worachete Pasriratr, Jirasart Wittaya School
Special lecturer, Faculty of Law, Rangsit University
แหล่งข้อมูลอื่น
Other source of Information
บทความ วรเจตน์ ภาคีรัตน์ : นิติราษฎร์
วรเจตน์ ภาคีรัตน์ : ไทยรัฐ
วรเจตน์ ภาคีรัตน์ : เครือข่ายกฎหมายมหาชนไทย
วรเจตน์ ภาคีรัตน์ : ศูนย์ข้อมูลการเมืองไทย
Articles:
Worachet Pakeerut: Nitirat
Worachet Pakeerut: Thai Rath
Worachet Pakeerut: Thai Public Law Network
Worachet Pakeerut: Thai Politics Information Center
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stuart
Just a question – did you leave South Africa during Apartheid?
Were you a member of the ANC yourself?
What experience did you have of living in the Townships? (you said you could only comment on places you lived in, and you also said how separate the two worlds, black and white, were in S Africa at that time).
Or did you just visit?
I also don;t know if you’ve ever read the autobiography of Nelson Mandela.
In that he makes it pretty clear that it was necessary to use force of arms to end Apartheid.
But maybe the South Africa he’s referring to isn’t the one you lived in?
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Andrew.Let me number my responses to make it easier to follow:
1. No I didn’t. I’m still very much there, although I spend a great deal more time elsewhere these days.
2. Yes I was , between 1985 and 1992 when it was still a banned organisation. By the U.S Government’s definition that made me a terrorist! With some regrets, I’m no longer a member.
3. I spent the worst part of two years in and out of Alex as a young rifleman under conscription. Later, I was frequently in and out of Soweto and Thembisa (and also Alex as necessary) as a reporter for an international news service and for some years as a newspaperman at the major Johannesburg daily. Since 1995 I maintain a home (and since 2003 a third-share in a shebeen) in Khayelitsha.
4. No. I think my answer above qualifies me as more than just visiting. I haven’t seen as much as many, and possibly more than most; but I have seen enough.
5. Yes I have. In fact, not only have I read the book but I also know him quite well.
6. Yes he does. In his book you will find he refers to most of the things I talked about in my previous comment. By and large, I saw things in much the same way he did. We agree on all the facts, although our opinions or interpretations sometimes differ. On your point, though, yes they did indeed use force of arms. But that wasn’t my point. White South Africans, almost to a man (bar several lunatics in Bophuthutswana in 1994), calmly and deliberately chose not to go to war. Most did so, I believe, because a bloodbath would have seen the destruction of everything they had built over three and a half centuries. In rude terms, we simply came to our senses. We also very probably would have been killed…which would have been to our detriment. This was my point when I compared us to privileged Thais. I know it’s very exciting to imagine the illustrious ANC marching to war with all guns blazing against the evil white man. But it’s well recorded in fact, and acknowledged by all parties involved, that the overwhelming majority of the “The Struggle” was defined by so-called black-on-black violence. The largely white National Party had started reaching out to the ANC long before. I hope this “red on red” violence (to coin an awkward phrase) doesn’t happen in Thailand, although in this regard the circumstances are different.
7. No, there’s only one South Africa. In fact, it was a blank reality that all sides came to terms with very early during negotiations in the early 1990s. I’m glad they did. I suspect you’re being facetious.
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stuart
Have you heard of Tony Hall? I believe he was banned from writing for S. African newspapers and magazines after interviewing the then on-the-run Nelson Mandela in 1961. As I can recollect, his wife, Eve, was sentenced to prison for 6months and later worked for the ILO and helped to set-up the women’s section of the ANC. She joined the ANC the day after the Sharpeville massacre when 69 people were killed by the Apartheid regime.
I was lucky enough to meet Tony a few years back before he died. His son, Andy, is a close friend of mine.
The entire family had to go on the run for over two decades to escape the Apartheid regime.
Tony’s interview with Mandela makes for interesting reading –
“He said: “It is time for action in a revolutionary sense. There is a great need for a united Non-White front with Africans as its spearhead.
” The immediate aims should be to disorganise the system of Apartheid to make it totally unworkable, to divide the Whites seriously, if possible, and to use the resulting situation to demand further democratic rights.”
Today Mandela says of the planned demonstrations for the end of May: “This is the beginning of the head-on clash with apartheid.”
Of course Apartheid didn’t end until 30years later.
And, according to the Nelson Mandela Foundation – “many thousands of people died in the struggle to end apartheid”.
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‘The Manager mob’ has yet to learn the lessons of historical fascism, which they seemingly wish to enact in the name of nationalist illusions and lies. The rule of law and justice cannot prevail if any attempt to voice counter-truths are crushed in a State of Exception in which delusion reigns.
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stuart
Back to your original point – that the Thai establishment will just hand over power in order to prevent a blood bath.
I stand by my original response that there is ample evidence in other countries, and in Thailand itself, that such elites rarely capitulate without a lengthy and often terrible struggle. And sometimes end up destroying themselves in the process. Civil wars happen, violent insurrections happen, regimes are overthrown and people die in their 100s of 1000s in such scenarios.
Is Thailand close to that? Some believe the potential is there for such an outpouring of violence. Clearly the kinds of threats Nitirat are getting (and many others have experienced in the past – many have also seen these threats turn to actions) implies that there is an undercurrent of violence and hatred. And once such acts are committed they tend to unleash more which then unleashes more and so on.
I hope and pray all of that is avoidable.
But it does seem that violence and mayhem may be in enough people’s interest for it to occur.
I do hope your analysis and not mine is proven to be the more accurate.
(So you didn’t live in the Townships then. Fair enough.
You said – “I know it’s very exciting to imagine the illustrious ANC marching to war with all guns blazing against the evil white man.”
I imagine it is for some. But such conflicts tend to be more about horror than anything else. And wasn’t it Umkhonto we Sizwe who had the guns? Maybe you were being facetious too?)
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Andrew
I never met Tony, no. He’s a well known figure, but well before my time. His newspaper The Rand Daily Mail caused all sorts of trouble for the Nats before dwindling advertising revenue eventually put an end to it. Many people just assume The Rand Daily Mail was shut down by the Nats, but that was simply not true. In fact, the Rand Daily Mail was allowed to continue unimpeded by censorship laws that hamstrung my own generation of reporters some 10 years later. It was a wonderful newspaper and Tony was a big part of it. He did eventually come back to SA when the ANC was unbanned in the 90s. I just did a google search and read his obit in The Guardian.
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A really stupid question from a near stupid person…..
Apart from those who write and read publications like ASTV Manager in Thailand who in Thailand really wants the to experience the type of horrendous violence some of NM’s readers are referring to? I lack any real evidence but intuitively this is not what I hear in Thailand but perhaps because I have experienced civil war first-hand (Cambodia, Vietnam and to a lesser extent Northern Ireland) I don’t want to think Thai people actually want to experience what people in neighboring countries, especially Cambodia, experienced.
It’s very easy to speculate about high levels of domestic violence (and of course a war of words or wars of words are also symptomatic of forms of violence) but for those who have directly experienced violence it is not an abstract and esoteric issue.
Anyway having been proved totally wrong in the past I guess there is no reason why one should not be proved wrong again!
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Stuart
Unfortunately I never met Eve, Tony’s wife, but know all three of their sons and some of their grandkids too. There is an obit in The Guardian for Eve as well. Both remarkable people and her story is particularly powerful.
Andy, the son I am closest to, has been a staff photo-journalist at The Observer for a long time and we’ve worked together in places as diverse as Greenland and New York . We’re also both huge Tottenham Hotspur fans.
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Comment #1 will make it very hard for whoever lives in Thailand to share this article on Facebook or Twitter.
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#13: Frank, taking a racist swipe at the “Chinese element” is simply disgusting. But perhaps it serves a purpose, reminding us how difficult freedom-of-expression issues are, even as we discuss the angry verbal backlash to Nitirat. Would New Mandala be wrong to remove such a comment, or negligent in tolerating it?
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“The Chinese element, so evident in this year’s gaudy New Year, seems part and parcel of the drum beat of alleged worship while ripping off the treasury.”
Believe what you will, but my little prying open the racial tolerance experiment didn’t go well. It took this long for someone to say something and yet my post was up there for four or five days.
The other aspect of the Chinese reference, perhaps missed or not clearly stated by me, was mainland Chinese connections, not racial connections per se, although it is difficult to avoid that aspect. As you know, China has a several corruption problem, unlike, of course (said in satire) the US.
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Living in Thailand is like walking on eggshells. There is no rule of law, as CT #10 effectively indicates in his reply to Thomas Hoy. It is folly to put one’s faith in Thai “justice”.
I recall at the time of last year’s Thai general election replying to Andrew Walker’s comment on the destruction of election posters in some parts of the country. He compared it with the rough and tumble of local electioneering in his part of Australia. I disagreed with him then and I disagree with him now. There is an undercurrent of violence in Thai society which informs such actions and negates attempts to make valid comparisons with mature democracies.
This is an area where Thailand can rightfully claim to be unique, and it should be ashamed of itself.
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We need a good study on why so much so-called love and loyalty incubates so much hatred and the veiled “We’ll die for our king” which really means “We’ll kill for our king.” And if public sentiment is not convincing the army will clean up afterward. This is really why Sondhi and others have called for a pact between the military and the people – both are violent and neither will ever need to be brought to account.
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ศิษย์เก่า และศิษย์ปัจจุบัน คณะวารสารศาสตร์ ม.ธรรมศาสตร์ นัดรวมพล 2 ก.พ. เคลื่อนไหวต้านนิติราษฎร์ พร้อมเรียกร้องให้ มหาวิทยาลัย สอบสวนดำเนินคดีทางอาญากับกลุ่มนิติราษฎร์
กลุ่มศิษย์เก่าและศิษย์ปัจจุบัน คณะวารสารศาสตร์และสื่อสารมวลชน มหาวิทยาลัยธรรมศาสตร์ และแนวร่วมรวมพลังปกป้องสถาบัน พระมหากษัตริย์และปกป้องสถาบัน มหาวิทยาลัยธรรมศาสตร์ ได้เผยแพร่เอกสารข้อมูลผ่านเว็บไซต์เฟซบุ๊ก ประกาศเจตนารมณ์ ต่อต้านการกระทำของคณะนิติราษฎร์ ที่ใช้ชื่อมหาวิทยาลัย สร้างความชอบธรรมในการเคลื่อนไหวแก้ไขกฎหมายอาญา มาตรา 112
รวมทั้งเรียกร้องให้อธิการบดี ให้มีการสอบสวนเอาผิดทางวินัยและทางกฎหมายอาญากับคณะนิติราษฎร์ โดยกลุ่มดังกล่าวได้นัดรวมพลหน้า คณะวารสารศาสตร์ ในวันพฤหัสบดีที่ 2 ก.พ.นี้ เวลา 14.00 น. โดยมีกิจกรรมเดินขบวนแสดงพลังประกาศเจตนารมณ์ ที่ ลานปรีดี ตัวแทนศิษย์เก่า ยื่นหนังสือต่ออธิการบดี ที่ตึกโดม ปิดท้ายด้วยกิจกรรมการร้องเพลงถวายพระพร หันหน้าไปยังโรงพยาบาลศิริราช
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Ref my comment #34
I am 64 years old and married to a fantastic Thai woman from a great family. It is the best relationship I have had in my life so I do not want people to generalise from what I say here.
Nonetheless I think more people should be aware of what can happen when things go wrong in Thailand. Incidents like these remind me to be very careful in my daily dealings with Thais.
http://www.andrew-drummond.com/view-story.php?sid=503
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Sam
While some may see your link as irrelevant, I don’t. I think this incident, and the many others like it, underscores the violence inherent in every level of Thai society. This is a country where “might is right” takes on a whole new dimension, with many Thais intuitively inclined to pay immediate and unquestioning deference (กราบ) to the “biggest” man in the room. Abhisit knew this when he openly and unabashedly murdered some 90 of his own citizens quite openly in May 2010. These are not a people whose natures are given to free and unfettered personal expressions of peaceful libertarianism. Democracy is not their natural bent.
While there is some hope that Thais – for selfish reasons – will find a peaceful resolution rather than hurl themselves into a violent civil war, but I don’t believe Thais are close to embracing (or even understanding) the concept of democracy as a largely peaceful means of conflict resolution.
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@ Comment #39
I’m sorry but not only is the link irrelevant, it’s offensive. Acts of violence occur in *every* society and to suggest that, because some poor unfortunate sod in Hua Hin was the victim of a brutal assault, Thai society as a whole is somehow inherently prone to physical violence or that the entire Thai population is, by “nature”, incapable of peaceful democratic consensus-building is an inductive fallacy of the most simplistic and, frankly, racist kind.
Any number of so-called mature liberal democracies have histories of barbaric collective violence in their recent past, while many others today suffer appallingly high statistical rates of inter-personal violent crime. Indeed, according to statistics compiled by the WHO, the rate of physical violence resulting in death in Thailand is actually lower than that of the USA (2oo/100,000 as compared to 242/100,000). I know we all share a deep concern about Thailand and hope it will achieve a peaceful path through its current transformative struggles but trading in hasty, sensationalist generalizations doesn’t help anybody IMHO.
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I agree with Brett. Violence against Farang in Thailand exists – often perhaps because of the way the latter behave – but that link provided by Sam proves very little sociologically. I think if we looked at violence against Thai when abroad (e.g. New Zealand where I once lived over 40 years ago has seen considerable male violence – typically by White or Pakeha New Zealanders – against Thai women: indeed any women some women would argue) or in a neighboring country such as Cambodia, Thailand stacks up pretty well.
Surely serious critiques of vilence in any society are preferable to anecdotal and sensational accounts of British builders being bashed by “mafia” in Hua Hin or Farangs being pushed out or jumped out of windows in Pattaya!
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Brett
Why is Sam’s link offensive?
I didn’t suggest at all that Thai society is inherently violent because of Sam’s link. I said Thai society is inherently violent, with Sam’s link an example of it. There are many other examples that would help undermine your more benign view of the Land of Smiles.
The WHO statistics are as good as any available, however they are inaccurate. For example, you will note that South Africa (to cite my own inherently violent homeland) is the second-highest with 2000-3000 per 100,000. During my time with Johannesburg’s major daily newspaper we recorded an average 47 murders every day in Jo’burg metro alone. However, as shocking as this figure is, even the police were quick to admit the figure included only reported murders – with estimates of actual murders higher by a factor of as much as three! The murder figures are only one part of the data feeding the WHO report, but it serves to illustrate that the statistics are accurate only insofar as each country’s level of transparency. I would suggest Thailand’s transparency levels are relatively low. The figure for the U.S is likely far more accurate.
There’s another interesting aspect to the WHO data. The figures only include violence that, as you said, leads to actual deaths. While it’s understandable to assume that this is an accurate indication of general levels of violence as a whole, it probably isn’t. To use the same example of South Africa (and this is more than 15 years ago now so you’ll have to bear with my vague recollections of a report), we found the levels of domestic violence – to cite just one type of violence – differed markedly between geographies, ethnic groups, affluence and education levels and a number of other common demographic measures. Surprisingly, the correlation between the various forms of violence across the various demographic measurements was lower than we thought. For example, there were parts of South African society that recorded extremely high levels of domestic, sexual and vice-related violence, with relatively fewer murders! It might not be such a long bow, therefore, to suggest that WHO’s measurement of violence resulting in death is not as accurate a gauge of general levels of violence as we might assume.
While the sum total of media stories is also not a particularly accurate gauge of violence in a society either, given the restrictions and agendas of the respective media organisations (and Andrew Drummond certainly feeds his own unique audience), we can probably draw some general conclusions from the myriad anecdotal evidence available. For example, I strongly suspect most expats and visitors from Western democracies would agree that Thailand is generally a more violent society than their own. In fact, most might even agree that there is a relatively high correlation between more democratic societies and lower levels of violence (although the adage that “two democracies have never gone to war’ is simply not true). I would take this a step further and argue that violence is both a symptom and a cause of less democratic societies, and I don’t hesitate to include Thailand as one example.
Even allowing for hyperbole (and I can’t vouch for Andrew Drummond’s journalistic qualities because I simply don’t know him or his publication very well) most of the many hundreds of Thais, expats and visitors whom I know well would describe incidents such as these as commonplace in Thailand, and probably more commonplace than in the vast majority of Western democracies. I have lived and worked in extreme societies – South Africa being at one end of the violence spectrum, Australia at the other, with Thailand much closer to the former than the latter in my opinion.
To see racists jumping in the shadows is a bad habit that has long worn thin as an effective retort (much like Godwin’s law on this same website). To get back to Sam’s link, the only offensive part about it is your off-handed dismissal of Paul and Justine’s ordeal.
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Stuart,
I suspect it’s a bit pointless to be drawn out on a debate on this matter as you seem wedded to a your own personal view of Thailand as “inherently violent” which is of course your right but subjective reasoning doesn’t hold much weight in terms of logical, constructive social analysis. I would point out respectfully that you do rather compound the fallacious logic of your initial argument by rejecting as “inaccurate” institutionally-verified international statistical evidence that challenges your own opinion, offering little by measure of counter-argument other than recourse to your own cognitive bias and anecdotal evidence drawn from your experience as a journalist and “the hundreds of Thais, expats and visitors [you] know well”. Great that you have such a rich professional and social network but claims to experiential authority is weak and spurious argumentation.
As for your closing remark, I am sure you know full well that no slight was meant by me to the victims of the criminal incident in Hua Hin so to try and mobilize it as the grounds for some kind of feigned rhetorical moralism on behalf of “Paul and Justine” is, well, just one final example of improper argumentation.
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Actually those who take solace from the fact that they think Thailand is quite a violent society or at least is is none too peaceful might look at the Global Peace Index on Wikipedia. I don’t have time to critically analyze the methodologies utilized or at the assumptions made (e.g. Papua New Guinea is considered more “peaceful” than Thailand but anyone who has taken a walk on the wild side in places such as Port Moresby or Lae or in the Southern Highlands might disagree) but if this GPI has any credibility than comparatively speaking Thailand is one of the more violent societies in the world: but not of course the most violent!
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Brett
Besides your response containing lots and lots of words apparently chosen at random (many of them incorrectly), I ask again: What is it you find offensive about Sam’s link? Is it his use of the link to illustrate a point that so enrages you; or is it the journalist’s use (or abuse) of the facts for a news story; or, as is implied by your use of the derogatory “sod”, the misfortune of the victims in the tale?
On the WHO report, I think you place too much store in institutions that have their own imperfections. A critical, and sometimes even cynical, approach is better, as well as drawing on your own experience and observations. You’re a lefty; you’re supposed to be good at this stuff!
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International homicide rates: Thailand ranks No. 1 in Asia (http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html).
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Talking about how violent Thailand is or isn’t seems to be missing the point.
Isn’t the issue more that, when violence does occur there, people quickly find ways (and make excuses, sometimes telling blatent lies) to justify what happened, and to make the voilence seem either morally acceptable or irrelevant. When there’s blood shed in the land of smiles there’s usually little of the moral outrage that we see back in the west.
In May 2008, the first week that I moved to Nan, the burnt out corpse of a man was found hanging from a bridge, a couple of minutes walk away from the school where I’d just started to work. Some people said that he’d been burnt alive, others said he’d had his throat cut / been hung first and that his body had been burnt afterwards.
The story didn’t make it into any of the English language news papers. Incidently, most stories involving violence between Thai’s rarely get printed in the Thai-English press (BKK post/Nation etc…) I’m not sure whether it made the Thai ones or not – I didn’t try to read Thai papers then – but generally, if you pick up any Thai langauge newspaper, there’s usually at least one bloodied body on the front page… traffic accident, shooting, beating, some dispute over property, a scorned lover etc etc….
The first week that I was there people at my school talked about the dead man a lot. Whenever I asked them what they were talking about I was told not to think too much. When the death was mentioned, it was usually followed by comments likes ‘he was a drug dealer…’ ‘he was from Phayao / Chiang Rai…’ ‘he was a bad man…’ No one said anything that implied that the man did not deserve what had happened to him.
Similarly, no one seemed to question what had actually happened there (that the man had been tortured and murdered) and whether it was morally right, for someone, criminal or not, to be killed in that way.
As far as I know – it’s very difficult to find out about these things as people there don’t tend to like to talk about negative things – the murderer was never found, charged etc…
What struck me as being odd at the time was the way that the death was accepted, and couple of weeks later, like so many other deaths there, totally forgotten about, to the point where some people (in some cases the same people who had been talking about it a week earlier) said that it had never happened. ‘what body’ I was told…. ‘Oh that was just a story. It didn’t happen…’
Anyway, going back to the original article (instead of commenting on others comments) and the point that I originally wanted to make, I guess we are supposed to be shocked by the death threats / animal comparisons etc that people have been / still are making on Manager’s website. I wish I could be but, after seeing the other hate campaigns that Manager has lauched against people / groups it didn’t like (I think the first I remember was seeing Taksin turned into ‘I-leeyam’… an evil ‘squarehead’) in terms of content, this one doesn’t seem to be that different. The only difference seems to be the target, a group of academics, rather than a few dodgy corrupt politicians.
The sad thing is that Manager’s audience, the kind of people posting the comments, really believe in their own image, that they are educated, want to do their best to protect the country etc… They dont see the output of their fanaticism, the pages of childish jibes and death threats (there are lots on fb too…) as being in any way wrong and can’t understand why some westerners (like me) find it repulsive. Reasoning with these people, without it turning into the usual ‘you’re not Thai. you will never understand Thailand…’ circular debate is impossible.
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#45: I may be missing something, Ralph, but according to my reading of the statistics in the link you kindly provide, Thailand doesn’t appear to rank No. 1 in homicide rates in Asia as you claim. How do you arrive at that conclusion? In the downloadable XL file under “Homicide Level for 2010″, it states that Myanmar, Indonesia, and the Philippines among other Asian countries have higher rates than Thailand at 10.2, 8.1 and 5.4 per 100k, respectively. Thailand’s rate of 5.3 is certainly high and a cause for concern but it’s not far from the rate of the United States at 5 and a heck of a lot lower than the rates for many other countries.
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For what it’s worth I did urge people not to generalise about the violence. My point is not the violence per se but the censorship of the press as part of the sickening official pretense that Thailand is all smiles. What other country has such a yawning gap between image and reality?
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You are right Peter, although not for 2010, but for “latest available data”. I was citing data from an earlier version of the same statistics that I had on file (the link I provided went to the more recent data), where Thailand was, in fact No. 2 (7.0), after the Philippines (7.1). Sorry about that. The Burma data are highly disputed (see the same page at: Homicide data series to be used for trends analyses, which shows major variation from the 10 rate). Thailand reports a declining trend, and a substantial one at that. Police are reporting this. As Sam Deedes says, the gap between perception and reality.
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Re:- Sam 48
Sure the press is censored (and heavily self censored) but it’s not just censorship of the press that creates the gap between image and reality in Thailand. There’s also a lot of self censorship in the way that Thai’s present stories about their news/lives to foreigners and to the world outside. The lies and excuses that people make to cover up events slowly, over time become the accepted ‘truth…’
Sadly, the narratives tat hthese people create are often more powerful and last longer than the truth itself.
I’m guessing here as I’m not in Thailand anymore but, from a couple of comments I’ve seen on facebook, I would imagine that there are a lot of Thai people who believe (based on narratives presented by manager etc… as ‘news’) that the Nitirat group are to be hated. Few probably really know and understand what the group are proposing and why.
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I spoke to my former Thai colleague who was a member of the CDA for the 2007 constitution on his own campaign against Nitirat. I asked him whether he really felt, as a long time member of the Thai media, that what Nitirat was doing was really unconstitutional.
His response – “The law has a lot of loopholes.”
Thais who support the loyalism mantra will never admit that inherent in the Thai constitution, in Thai laws or Thai culture is the right to voice offensive opinions. That is, unless they are offensive to Nitirat. This is a bit of a stretch but reflects the strength and dept of feelings.
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i just have nthg to say but showing tremendous pity on most of my thai freinds who never read more than three pages/week but instead show lots of angriness. I wonder in what exact way they could understand what nitiraj said. And for some friends who graduated, major in law, from that university. I’d like to share my infinited pity on you too. Having seen you worked like slaves for all of your life, not a bit able to identify what right and wrong on countless injustices in this overwhelmed black propoganda country.
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@free9josh said: “And for some friends who graduated, major in law, from that university. I’d like to share my infinited pity on you too. Having seen you worked like slaves for all of your life, not a bit able to identify what right and wrong on countless injustices in this overwhelmed black propoganda country.”
One of my good friends who is a lawyer in Thailand, graduate of TU, and a Red Shirt, said that the legal studies in Thailand is not like in common law countries.
In common law countries, students are encouraged to take different views from the Courts (even Supreme Court or House of Lords) on what the ‘right’ outcome should be, as long as they can justify their opinion in a legalistic and academic manner. In fact, law students who ‘obey’ the decisions of the highest Court and simply copy verbatim of what the Judges said will receive nothing more than B+ or A-. However, it’s those students who dare to be different, and are able to respectfully convince the lecturers with academic reasons, who will receive the highest marks.
In Thailand, on the other hand, students are taught to obey the decisions of the Courts. If you dare to be different, you will fail. My father was a law graduate from one Thai university as well. He told me about his experience when he did Insurance Law. He knew what the outcome from the Supreme Court was about a certain matter. Yet he dared to be different, explaining why he believes this law should be changed, and what the outcome should be. He also did a lot of research on overseas law on how they decide these matters, and wrote a lot of overseas law and reasoning to support his answer. The result??? He FAILED Insurance Law…(and had he done this in England, he would have received at least an A-….)
My point is…law graduates in Thailand are not taught to think differently. They are taught to obey and trust the highest courts’ decisions. This explains why Thai people can’t think critically. I mean, if even law majors cannot think critically, what hopes do other graduates have?
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For the views of a Nitirat colleague who happens not to be in their camp, see
http://nationmultimedia.com/politics/Rise-in-cases-tied-to-power-struggle-30175191.html
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Thankyou Srithanonchai #53 for the link
It is astounding that Kittisak Prokkati, a lecturer in Law at TU is unable to counter the Nitirat proposals with a tightly framed and concise counter-argument. Instead he provides a page of confused thoughts displaying an ignorance of Thai (and English) history and astonishingly unable to understand the function of a constitution in a democracy. A statement from a professor in law that claims “The best way to prevent coups is to have people oppose coups” is truely disturbing.
Although his arguments follow the standard royalist lines, I would have expected much more from a TU lecturer in law. I am left thinking that this partly reflects the dismal state of the Thai education system.
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Pete S #54
Here is an addition to the theme of “education system.” In today’s BP, senior journalist Veera states,
“Mr Worajate’s suggestion about the King taking an oath before the parliament seems to have offended not just Nitirat’s opponents but ordinary people who strongly feel the group has crossed the line. Personally, I feel that the suggestion is insulting for our King to take an oath before MPs, many of whom have tainted backgrounds and questionable credibility.
How about Mr Worajate and his supporting scholars take an oath before the same group of MPs that they will perform their duties honestly? Would they feel insulted to do the same?”
Since when, one might one ask, are university lecturers constitutional organs?
Moreover,
“As for the suggestion that the King not be allowed to give public addresses, I wonder where is the principle of free expression that the Niritrat group and its supporters cherish and vow to protect.”
In a democrracy, the king is a constitutional organ of a specific kind. If he feels the need to fully engage in public life and politics, he can abdicate and become an ordinary citizen of the same status as all citizens. He will then enjoy the liberties of any other of his fellow citizens.
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The provocation of Nitirat is that they want the constitution as base for legitimacy, while the opponents regard the king as the only valid base for it. This has far reaching implications. Using the constitution as base requires a state and politics based on legality of its procedures. Even more, it demands equal legal treatment, in contrast to influence. In the second case, legitimacy derives from personal relations that through patronage etc. are supposed to reach up to the top. Furthermore it implies that even violence or a coup are taken as legitimate, as long as they are interpreted to be for the protection of the king. In this way, violent acts against f.e. Nitirat can be taken as legitimate even though they would not be in line with existing laws.
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Bangkok Post, February 8, 2012:
“Cabinet ministers and military top brass are backing army chief Prayuth Chan-ocha’s call for the Campaign Committee for the Amendment of Section 112 to halt its activities. Deputy Prime Minister Yutthasak Sasiprapa yesterday said the army would never allow the Criminal Code’s Section 112 to be amended. ‘Any act demeaning the monarchy or Thai people’s feelings should be stopped. If they stop this movement, peace can be achieved,’ Gen Yutthasak said.’
Seems Thailand has some sort of new-style military-led elected government now… Instead of dismissing the army chief because he inappropriately meddled in politics with his statements, they gather behind him.
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Just a reflection on Comment #1 from CT.
I remember when I was laying in my hotel room in Khon Kaen in October 2009, watching PTV on the TV and reading the SMS comment strip that they aired.
The contents were pretty much the same as the ones that are mentioned in this article. Abhisit and Suthep should hang. They are dogs etc etc.
And I remember that my reaction was the same then, as yours is today. “The UDD leadership do not deserve any respect” – I cried. For the exact same reasons that you give.
The display of uninhibited emotion, with calls for violence, can not be attributed to political sides. Rather to a general state of moral. Or lack thereof, in society.
On the other hand, if you let a group of teenagers in any western country have their say on sensitive issues, their reaction would be prettty much the same.
The wrong you commit, and that I committed, when claiming “The leadership don’t deserve respect” is that we politicize this lack of restraint, lack of reflection and lack of respect for others.
Because the effect of your comments, and your well intended reaction, is not that readers becom affectionate against lack of respect for other peoples views. Rather it builds hatred against the royalists in this case. Just like my own view helped to build hatred against the UDD. And that leads nowhere but to further violence.
And besides that, saying that someones doesn’t deserve respect isn’t that far from saying that someone is a dog.
Luckily, I have changed since that day in October 2009. I hope you will too.
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@NoBuzz
Thank you for your comment about my opinion, in which I have the following to say in respond.
First, I have just heard about the UDD TV’s speech on its TV. And yes, assuming that what you said is true, I would wholeheartedly agree that it is a very bad thing to say. Nevertheless, the fact that UDD’s media acted inappropriately does nothing to make the image of the Thai Royals and Thai elites look better.
Secondly, I respectfully disagree that anyone who reads my comment that the “Thai Royals deserve zero respect for their acquiescence to their fanatics’ violence incitement” would result in nothing but further violence. True, there may be some people who would been incited. Nevertheless, I am sure that most people would not think that way.
In fact, I believe that the vast majority of rational Thais are more likely than not to ‘stop and think’ whether the Royals that they have been taught for their whole lives to respect and sacrifice everything they have for them are really deserving of such admiration.
I was one of those people. I used to respect the King, but after the mess in 2010 I changed my mind.
After the media tried to justify the massacre in 2010 that the Reds deserve to die because they do not love the King, followed by countless witchhunts by the royal fanatics on their attempt to expose people who do not love the Monarchy to public humiliation and imprisonment, I started to ask myself, “what would I do, if I were the King? If I witness my fanatics behaving this way, what would I do? Would I be happy if someone who don’t like me must go to jail if they say they don’t like me? Would I keep quiet when my fanatics are witch-hunting people who think differently? Should I remain silent? Certainly not. If I remain silent, those people would not stop.
The truth, which you have to accept is, the King’s silence to all these witchhunting, massacre, and this current craziness in Thailand nowadays, have damaged his reputation and his own carefully constructed image far more than any criticism from any scholar would do. No person who has even a remote sense of morality would remain quiet in situations like only they can do something to stop the insane human rights violation done ‘in their names’ for their own benefit like what the King currently does. And no, people who realise that he is not worthy of respect won’t necessarily feel that they should inflict violence on him. They are most likely to lose their love and respect they had for him and that’s all. There may be some who would wish to inflict violence on him, but I am certain that those people would be in the minority.
Thirdly, I heavily disagree with your opinion that to say “someone deserves no respect” is akin to saying that they are a dog. For example, I do not respect Yingluck. Her effort to try to build a relationship with the Thai elites who are behind the killing of her supporters is sickening to watch. Nonetheless, I do not mean, when I say I do not respect her, that she is like a dog. To say someone is ‘a dog’ is much more extreme that to say one does not deserve to be respected. “Not respecting” signifies a feeling of indifference. However, to call one “a dog” goes way beyond indifference. It is a clear insult. I fail to see how saying “x should not be respected” can equate to a clear insult like you suggested.
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@CT
Thank you for your lengthy response. And please do not for one minute believe that my intention is to try to make anyone look better. Be it the Thai Royals, the UDD leadership or any of the sides elites.
I am not part in this binary infection and have friends in both camps. I know there are good people in both and don’t want harm caused to any of them.
When I cried “The UDD leadership don’t deserve respect” I didn’t allow them any credit for the good things they were trying to accomplish. Therefore I belittled the efforts of improvement of their followers. And naturally any follower of the UDD would therefore feel hurt by such a statement.
What I should have cried out is “The UDD leadership shouldn’t allow hatred and anger to command their followers” or “They shouldn’t be silent and should promote peaceful solutions”. Just like I think you should cry “Thai Royals should take a public stand against death threats against the Nitirat.” Points I think we both agree on, and I guess any one would agree on after about 10 seconds of thinking.
My bottom line is: “Are our actions/words creating understanding between people – or division?”
Because division can lead to serious violence in Thailand.
And I think that wordings like “they don’t deserve respect” contribute to division.
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Not enough study has been made of Thai society, overall. Not by Thais nor non-Thais. There is so much criticism, so much to be critical of, and so much polarization. Where did all this come from?
In part the concept or mantra of unity in Thailand finds its roots in a regimented society that forces relationships and minimizes free upward mobility. The regimentation is well-entrenched and not well-designed. Thus, given modern opportunities for education, exposure to non-doctrinated concepts, personal experience with life being lived another way, personal empowerment of the mind and so on, it is no wonder that what is being called divisiveness comes into being. If Thai society were less stratified, less regimented there would be no, perhaps…need, for divisiveness. But Thai society seems to have come to another crossroads in its development where Thais in Thailand are telling one another to mind their own business, to leave them alone, to allow things to be said that have always been cited as bad things or un-Thai things. Of course the groupings and activists who support status quo or no-change are screaming about divisiveness. The need for it, though, is overshadowed by colors and very Thai-like hatred and violence. Thai society has always been violent – and not alone in this in the world – but does not appreciate its laundry hanging out on the line.
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Lese Majeste Laws
Nitirat academic Worachet assualted
The Nation February 29, 2012 5:18 pm
Nitirat academic Worachet assualted
Nitirat academic Worachaet Pakeerut was attacked by two unidentied men and sustained injuries at the parking lof of Thammasat University, Metropolitan Police commissioner said on Wednesday.
“Police are checking security cameras at the Tha Phrachan campus in order to identify the suspects,” Lt General Wichai Thongsong said.
Wichai said pollice were persuing all leads and had not drawn conclusion on the motive behind the attack.
Following the attack, Worachet underwent a medical check-up at Thonburi Hospital and filed a complaint. Chana Songkhram police station has the jurisdiction over the case.
Speaking to reporters after his treatment, Worachet said he was talking to a lecturer from Mahidol Universti when two men sneaked from behind to deliver several puches in his face.
“I was hit and everything happened so suddenly that I could not even remember the profile of my attackers,” he said.
He sustained bruises and some minor cuts in the face.
Thanapol Eawsakul, editor of Fa Diew Kan magazine, said he was a witness at the scene, seeing two attackers fleeing by a motorcycle.
Anti-coup activist Sombat Boonngarm-anong tweeted that the motorcycle license plate was Mo Tho 684.
Worachet is the core leader of Nitirat academic group spearheading a campaign to amend the lese majeste law. He is seen as a controversial figure due to his outspokenness in opposing the coup. His political views are often favouring the pro-Thaksin camp.
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