On 14 April 2012, for the first time in the conflict of the past 6 years, Thaksin addressed a mass rally of Red Shirt supporters. While on many occasions Red Shirts have travelled to see Thaksin at his home in Dubai, or during his previous stays in Cambodia, and also during his stay in Laos from 13-14 April 2012, the rally in Siem Reap was the first time Thaksin spoke on a mass rally stage in person to the Red Shirts. The event came at a time of much insecurity and confusion over the future developments of Thai politics. The Red Shirt-supported government led by Thaksin’s sister Yingluck Shinawatra seems to follow a course of reconciliation, which may also include one or the other form of a general amnesty for politically motivated crimes related to the past 6 years of political conflict, yet the opposition Democrat Party and the two anti-government protest groups — the People’s Alliance for Democracy and Siam Samakkhi — oppose this course of the government. But some ordinary Red Shirt protesters I spoke with also express their opposition to the idea of an amnesty at this point. They want accountability and truth before talks of an amnesty.
On 13 April 2012, I went to the Mor Chit bus terminal, and with luck got a ticket on a bus to the border at Aranyaprathet. The bus was crowded with Songkran holiday travelers heading to their home villages, also some Cambodian workers were on the bus. Two men sitting in the row in front of me emptied a bottle of whisky during the 5-hour trip, and after beginning to annoy fellow passengers they were thrown off the bus not long before reaching Aranyaprathet. The bus stopped at Rong Kleu market, a short walk from the border crossing. At the check point on the Thai side, Red Shirts from Sakeo province had a table to help Red Shirts with the border crossing. By that stage, many Red Shirts were already crossing the border, both in their private vehicles, and as part of organised tours. The Sakeo Red Shirts expected the main rush the following day, the day of the mass rally. Some Red Shirts opted to park their cars at the border market, and take advantage of the free transport provided for them by the Cambodian government from Poipet to Siem Reap. After crossing the border, I got a ride with one of the free buses waiting in front of one of the casinos for Red Shirts. Most Red Shirts on the bus came from Bangkok and surrounding provinces, but a group of Red Shirts from Phuket were there as well.
At the start of the journey a Red Shirt leader from a Thonburi group took over the microphone and asked for a collection for the driver, if possible 20 baht per person. They collected 1150 Baht, and gave the money to the bus driver. A slight mishap occurred when they tried to get the karaoke in the bus running, and an explicit pornographic picture appeared on the screen of the TV, accompanied by loud laughter from the passengers. During a short break I met several Red Shirt guards on the way to Siem Reap in a car, and also Jatuporn’s driver and bodyguard who were having dinner in a roadside restaurant. They came with Jatuporn’s car, to pick him up the following day at the airport.
Approaching Siem Reap, the Red Shirts expressed their amazement at how clean Cambodia is, how good the roads are, and asked the driver to drive them around for a tour to see Siem Reap’s city lights, applauding when they saw karaoke parlors or fellow Red Shirts, commenting on how developed Siem Reap is, asking if Siam Reap has katoey as well, and when they saw some, applauding again. The man on the microphone then commented that that they will have to apologise to Cambodia for having looked down upon it before. They then chanted: “Long live Hun Sen, Long Live Thaksin!”
The bus then went to the rally area in a large field just outside Siem Reap, where they were going to spend the night. The stage area itself was already cordoned off, the entrances marked by X-Ray machines and metal scanners. I went to the stage, was stopped by Cambodian security, but let through after Red Shirt guards vouched for me. I then picked up a press pass for the following day, with a picture of Thaksin and Hun Sen, and found a small guesthouse to stay.
On 14 April, I went first to the airport, where maybe 200 Red Shirts had gathered to welcome Thaksin. As in Laos, Thaksin landed at the military airport a few hundred meters away, and was straight away rushed to his hotel. Many of the Red Shirts at the airport were part of an organised tour, and I hitched a ride with them to Thaksin’s hotel — the City Angkor — where he was to have a lunch.
At the hotel entry was a crowd of Red Shirts, blocked by Cambodian security. At first they refused me entry too, ignoring my press pass, but after some discussion it was decided I could enter, and had to pass through a metal scanner and have my camera bag checked in an X-ray machine. The hotel lobby was packed with Red Shirts, and in the adjacent restaurant the tables were already occupied with Red Shirts waiting for Thaksin who was giving a speech and attending a small Songkran ceremony in an upstairs meeting room. In front of a lift several Pheua Thai Party officials tried to bring order to the Red Shirts who waited to greet Thaksin. One man primed the crowd with choruses.
I talked with a Pheua Thai Party MP, and member of the Parliamentary Committee for National Reconciliation, who expressed personal difficulties with the reconciliation process, and who noted that she may have to separate these personal problems from political reality. The MP asked not to be named, as did almost all MPs and Red Shirt leaders I asked about the reconciliation process.
I managed to evade the security and slipped upstairs together with a group of Red Shirts. Thaksin was just coming out of the meeting room, and I captured a few images. He then proceeded to sprinkle several Red Shirts with sacred water.
I ran downstairs again to photograph Thaksin when he was greeted by the crowd. Of course the orchestrated greeting collapsed when Thaksin appeared and was rushed by the crowd.
He then went to the restaurant, to a separate room behind glass, where he, Pheua Thai phu yai and several Red Shirt leaders had lunch. Thaksin was seated next to Sanoh Tienthong, with whom he had an animated conversation, which I photographed through the glass.
After lunch, Thaksin then made a round through the restaurant. He was surrounded by Cambodian security. People rushed Thaksin, hugged him, and cheered.
At the outside area, with more lunch tables for Red Shirts, Thaksin then spoke briefly, and said that everybody will have a chance to meet him. One crying woman hugged Thaksin. Thaksin went back to the glassed room, where he, and Sanoh Tienthong, held a Songkran ceremony. Red Shirts cued up to sprinkle water over their hands.
Thaksin then retired to his third floor suite. I tried to get an interview with Thaksin, but was not successful.
I decided then to move to the stage area, and rode in the van of a Red Shirt leader and Pheua Thai MP. A former Thai Rak Thai MP was also accompanying us. During the trip I asked again about the reconciliation process, and the answers were quite revealing of the difficulties in the process. While the Red Shirt leader was quite adamant in not accepting any form of amnesty, and only to void the Asset Examination Committee cases the retired Thai Rak Thai MP said that: “Thailand needs reconciliation, needs an amnesty for all, this should be the last time that Thai society should have the need to reconcile”, that there should be no more conflicts, no more military coups. He also said that a general amnesty should be decided upon by Royal Decree (phraratchakamnot) as this would be quicker and far more difficult for any opposition to stop the process. For a Royal Decree, the government proposed law would be presented to the king to sign, and only after the parliament would debate the law.
The dusty rally ground was under heavy Cambodian security — armed soldiers in uniform, and soldiers of the Bodyguard unit in black suits. The Red Shirts had to pass through a metal detector and their bags an X-Ray machine before being allowed into the rally ground, in which 50,000 chairs were prepared for the Red Shirts in long rows. Altogether maybe 30,000 Red Shirts made the journey to Cambodia (the number was also confirmed to me by sources in Thai intelligence who based their estimate on their count of Red Shirts passing through the border crossings). On the construction site of a building opposite and overlooking the stage sniper teams were placed to take out possible assailants.
Thaksin arrived just before dusk. The many black dressed Cambodian security officers pushed everyone away, including journalists, Red Shirt guards and even several VIPs. The Cambodian security officers were paranoid over Thaksin’s security, but quite overwhelmed with the situation, not knowing anyone, disregarding the different passes, and so rude that almost all journalists were very annoyed, as were many of the Red Shirt guards who were treated no differently.
Thaksin entered the stage right away, and I managed to slip on the stage as well, as I definitely did not want to miss the image of Thaksin speaking in front of a crowd of Red Shirts. One Red Shirt photographer and a western camera woman managed this as well.
After a brief and not overly political speech the evening began with the singing of countless songs by Thaksin and the Red Shirt leaders, and the Red Shirts partying with Thaksin. Nattawut Saikua later replied when asked why there were so few political speeches on the stage that it would not be appropriate to have too much political content from a stage on Cambodian soil, and that they would do that on Thai soil. He said that the event should resemble more the Bonanza Khao Yai concerts, being mostly a festive party with light political content. That though did not hinder Jatuporn later on, when Thaksin has already left, to state, after he talked about the Red Shirt victims of 2010, that he would like Abhisit and Suthep to be dead.
Almost all Red Shirt leaders were present and joined Thaksin on the stage — most notable were Thida Tawornset, her husband Dr. Weng Tojirakarn, Jatuporn Prompan, Nattawut Saikua (who rarely let go of the microphone), Suporn “Rambo Isan” Attawong, Korgaeow Pikulthong, Nisit Sinthuprai, former head of the guards Ari Krainara, and Payap Panket. Many politicians close to the Red Shirts were there as well, such as Adisorn Piengket and Pheua Thai MP Sunai Julponsathorn, who has been a regular speaker at Daeng Siam rallies.
Behind the stage I had several conversations about the reconciliation process. Notable was Phayao Akahad, the mother of Kamolket “Nong Kate” Akahad — the nurse who was killed in Wat Patumwanaram on 19 May 2010 during the dispersal at Rajaprasong intersection. She was quite anxious and openly opposed the possible amnesty. Arisaman Pongruangrong was also there. He got court permission to travel to Siem Reap, but was by the courts forbidden to take to the stage.
Photographing Thaksin and the Red Shirt leaders on the stage and the Red Shirt attendants was extremely difficult — the Cambodian security pushed, shoved and held me back at almost every step, when I walked to find the right angles. Every photo was hard fought over. My only consolidation was that every journalist there had to endure the same treatment. Most journalists had given up after they got their necessary shots and footage. In the end, I managed to get close to the stage when Korkaeow Pikulthong called me over to the stage from the quite distant place where we were allowed to stand and take photos.
When Thaksin finally left, the atmosphere became more relaxed, just like at a normal Red Shirt mass rally. Red Shirt protesters were allowed directly in front of the stage, dancing to the music on the stage. I left soon after.
On the following day, 15 April 2012, Angkor Wat was allowing free entry to the Red Shirts, where Thaksin was to perform another Songkran ritual. Showing my press pass at the entry to Angkor Wat I was allowed free entry as well. Thousands of Red Shirts had already gathered, expecting Thaksin, who was first to give alms to 265 monks — a number corresponding to the Pheua Thai Party’s number of seats in parliament. The security was a lot friendlier and less pushy than the previous day. More journalists were present as well, still though fewer journalists compared to large rallies in Bangkok. After Thaksin arrived in his motorcade, together with members of his family — his sister Yaowapa Wongsawat and his son Panthongtae — Arisaman Pongruangrong led the long row of 265 monks out of the ancient temple compound opposite the area reserved for the celebrations. Thaksin gave alms to each of the monks.
When this was over Thaksin spoke to the crowd, and began sprinkling the crowd with water from a hose, and then walked surrounded by bodyguards through the crowd of Red Shirts.
A fire engine parked at the side of the area sprayed water over the crowd from a large hose. I stood on the side as I did not want to lose yet another camera. Thaksin emerged, dripping wet from his walk through the crowd, and I snapped a few images. He then moved to give a small press conference.
I asked his assistants if I could get an interview, and they said that today he will give interviews and that I am in the queue. The Red Shirts went through Angkor Wat, and I followed them snapping images of Red Shirts praying at the temple.
I went then to the City Angkor Hotel to get ready for my interview. Thaksin gave brief interviews to a few journalist teams before lunch. I was led then to the third floor, to wait for my allocated time. Accompanying me was a friend, a researcher working on her PhD. In front of Thaksin’s suite his son Panthongtae regulated the entry, and several Cambodian security officers guarded the floor. While waiting for my turn, we talked. One of the Cambodian security officials asked me if today was better for me as I seemed to be very annoyed the day before (I had treated him also with several rather less polite words the previous day). I laughed and said that today working was much easier, that I wasn’t getting pushed around anymore. Panthongtae laughed, and said that even he was pushed the day before when security officials did not recognise him. The Cambodian security official smiled, then gave me his card, and told me to look him up when I am in Phnom Penh. Looking at the card, he turned out to be a Brigadier General who was commander of Hun Sen’s Bodyguard Headquarters. Panthongtae was angry about a journalist’s team asking him about his wedding. He said that he will not respond to any question regarding his wedding. I said to him that as far as I am concerned this is his private matter and none of my business, and that I will only ask about political matters. He said that this is good, and then: “But you see — I have no privacy at all anymore.”
When it was our turn, Thaksin greeted us. He remembered me from when I photographed him in his home in Dubai not long before the 2011 elections for an assignment for a German newsmagazine. We restricted ourselves to 3 questions as we had only 5 to 10 minutes for the interview.
My first question was regarding the reconciliation process and the general confusion over it. Thaksin answered that there are 3 different options, and that the one which seems to be accepted by the majority would be option two — to void the cases of the Asset Examination Commission, set up by the coup, which he said were very biased and unfair, and then to start all over again with these cases with due process of the law. Thaksin said that this is the option most likely proposed by the parliamentary Committee on National Reconciliation.
My second question was about the possible amnesty, and the fact that most ordinary Red Shirts I spoke with were opposed to an amnesty at this time, and that they wanted truth and accountability before talking about an amnesty. Thaksin said that he is aware that that many worry about this, especially families who lost loved ones in 2010. He was then slightly evasive, stating that an amnesty is considered a domestic affair, talking also about the problems that even if incidents could be considered crimes against humanity that Thailand is not party to the International Criminal Court. He then said: “Anyway, if we really want to start all over, the remedy must be there, and already is there, will be done quickly. At least we should do something. After the remedy there should be forgiveness.”
He also said: “Truth will come out, but will not really be in detail. Truth will come because the process will start by prosecuting. They start to prosecute already. This should reveal some truth. The evidence is strong. After we do more investigation, the evidence is much more.”
The researcher asked then about the signature campaign to amend the lese majeste law – Article 112 of the criminal code. Thaksin said: “I try to explain to them that 112 never was a problem before 6 years ago. It has been used for political purposes too much.” He said that it is not treated according to the set regulations, that a committee at the police headquarters has to consider these cases, and that not just anyone who wants to show loyalty to the monarchy can file a case. He said that a further problem is that officials in the justice process think that if they ignore cases it could be alleged that they are not loyal. He said that if the process can be normalised, strictly controlled by the regulations, then there is no need for amendments.
Asked if the jail terms of 3 to 15 years should be reduced, Thaksin replied: “Normally in the past they talk about 1 year, 6 months. I have never really heard 10 years, 15 years, not even 7 years in the old days.”
“In the old days the judges never give that much”.
“All we need to do is just to bring back the practice of the old days, and let everybody involved understand that, not try to overdo it.”
*********
While many observers, and also high ranking Pheua Thai politicians, seem to be convinced that a general amnesty will come, regardless of any opposition, I am not yet entirely convinced, and believe that the final judgment has not yet been made. Thaksin was slightly evasive when I asked him about the idea of an amnesty. The evening before a Red Shirt leader told me that with the spectacle in Siem Reap Thaksin had shown his opponents that he still has a huge following and support. He also suggested that Red Shirts themselves had given clear signals to Thaksin that an amnesty would not find their support. Another source said to me that Thaksin, feeling he has given more at the negotiation table than his opponents, wanted with this event to apply more pressure at the negotiating table. According to my source, Thaksin may have spent up to US$ 500,000 for this event, for logistics and security (more than 2000 Cambodian troops were at any time around Thaksin during this visit).
I believe that we may have to wait a bit longer for clarity. Opposition not just by the Democrat Party, and their covertly supported street protest group of Siam Samakhi and the now quite isolated People’s Alliance for Democracy, but also by the overwhelming majority of the Red Shirts themselves may still unsettle the amnesty option.
And while a showing of 30,000 supporters may sound small, one still has to consider that for Red Shirts the journey to Cambodia involved considerable expense and effort. The majority of the Red Shirts I spoke with there were not his supporters from the economically disadvantaged rural areas or urban labour districts, but people that had the means to travel. The numbers of Red Shirts not able to travel to Cambodia watching the event over the Red Shirt channel Asia Update would have been considerable as well.
When my interview with him was finished Thaksin had lunch once again at the restaurant. When he finished his lunch he went around the tables of the Red Shirts seated inside and in the outside area under tents. The security was much more low-key than the previous day, and very few journalists were still there, making it much easier for me to take pictures. The Red Shirts were asked to remain seated when Thaksin come passed, and told that he would pose with every table. He walked up, people hugged him, and he hugged the people, and went then to the next table. He took almost two hours doing this.
I then went back to my guesthouse for a much needed rest. The following day I returned to Bangkok. At the Poipet border a family of Red Shirts offered me a ride, which I gladly accepted as I feared difficulties getting transport to Bangkok as it was the end of the Songkran holidays.


































I always cringe when I see fanatical Thai royalists cry when they see the Royals. But now when I see fanatical Thaksin supporters cry and hug him, I feel quite sick, especially after I heard his comment about section 112.
The Red Shirts who died two years ago believed they sacrified themselves for true democracy. What Thaksin had said about LM was, in my opinion, was adding the insult to their deaths.
If he really means it, then he better not come back to Thailand ever. I really feel sorry for Thai people. They have struggled to find the right person who will bring true democracy to their country. But that person has never appeared.
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Well CT cry no more! At Pathumthani’s (a deeply Red Shirt country) recent MP by-election, Thaksin’s party candidate lost to a Democrat Party candidate.
(Personally I am wondering what incantations the Khmer voodoo witches chanted for Thaksin that so encouraged him to declare that this year 2012 could be the auspicious time for his return to Thailand.)
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Thanks, Nick Nostitz.
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Wow! What more can anyone add?
Wonder if Thaksin’s commitment to Hun Sen included a promise to encourage, with quotation marks, supports on the bus to make such an apology for looking down on Cambodia.
As bad as things in the States are, could they ever be as orchestrated as this?
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This is a great report…thank you for your hard work and attention to detail, Nick……
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Goodness me Vichai! You mean those hopelessly duped and/or paid red shirts somehow managed to vote for another party? Miraculous transformations underway!
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Vichai N @ 3
The problem is who do you vote for if you want democracy, certainly not the Democrat Party and certainly not for Thaksin parties. Are there any true democrats in Thailand?
Many people have replaced God Bhumipol with God Thaksin. When everyone realizes neither of them is a God we can move on.
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Nostitz’ photos are remarkably revealing: you could see first their undisguised anticipation while in the coach, then their honest-to-goodness rapture when their Beloved Leader made his appearance, and the pandemium to hug and get close to their Beloved Leader.
Paid (Kamden#7) or not, everyone (the payor and payees) got their money’s worth me thinks.
Makes me wonder perhaps the Democrats were buying votes in Pathumthani to explain Thaksin’s party’s loss? (ha ha)
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#7 “Goodness me Vichai! You mean those hopelessly duped and/or paid red shirts somehow managed to vote for another party? Miraculous transformations underway!”
My word, Ralph, but you are a one trick pony when it comes to clumsy sarcasm…… Your comments seem to be devoid of any actual content…. It’s quite a talent.
#1 CT “They have struggled to find the right person who will bring true democracy to their country. But that person has never appeared.”
That is called the sound of a penny dropping…. Something long overdue at New Mandala.
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At this point I have nothing more to say than the reconciliation is pointless and amnesty immoral. Royal Decree? A kiss of death.
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Dan: you might read Vichai’s comment. He displays a sense of humor in these matters. Unlike you, Vichai grasped the basic point suggesting a considerable intelligence and self awareness.
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“The problem is who do you vote for if you want democracy . . .” Nobby (#10)
That’s a good question. When Thais vote, do they even think of democracy, I must wonder?
My opinion: The paramount Thai concern when they vote, under current very tense circumstances, is how their vote will remove or undo any perceived threats to their situation. I consider Thaksin and his deadly political machinations to be a serious threat to me and Thailand’s well-being. Thus Thaksin’s PTP party & friends will never get my vote.
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Comparing the adulation of Thaksin to the King is false. The King has almost the entire state apparatus, including one of the most brutal censorship laws on earth, supporting an unquestioning propaganda campaign for him. This campaign is enforced by regular threats from the military who also routinely invoke the King’s name to carry out coups and massacres. Any criticism of the King can lead to a long prison sentence or stalking and hate campaigns by rightwing hate mobs. On this forum we can freely discuss/analyse Thaksin without too much fear of being imprisoned, arrested or targetted. The reverse is true if you question the Thai monarchy. Strangely, given that context, the King has been seen by some as a symbol of democracy while Thaksin is seen as the opposite.
Secondly, this kind of rockstar treatment for a popular politician is hardly new or something particular to Thaksin. Countless numbers of leaders – from Mandela to Peron – have all received such adulation.
The question of “true democracy” coming to Thailand is complex. Democracy is an ideal and a concept that is struggled over culturally, politically and socially throughout the world. It means something different to Indians and something different to Greeks. At the moment many of Thailand’s most important institutions – courts, bureaucracy, military, religious, monarchy, civil bodies – are politicised towards a form of royalist Thai phalangism and unaccountable to democratic norms. The only democratic norm that has been put in place – and the struggle to secure that has been long and bloody and is still continuing – is the right for the population to elect a government. My view is that securing that, however distasteful Thaksin may or may not be to Western liberal thinking (and let’s face it we are not Thais and don’t have to face, completely, what that means. Thais have democratically elected a PT govt so we need to respect that vote), will bring long-term and meaningful change to Thailand. I just hope a proper democratic opposition to Thaksin emerges soon. The Democrat Party are not “democrats” but part of the Thai phalangist project – that is the root of their continued failure. They don’t have to rely on the vote to secure power so when worry about it? It’s deep in the Dems’ mindset.
Thirdly – why is Dan (aka Dan White) always so personal and abusive when he makes any comment? It’s getting very tiresome. Please contribute, rather than subtract, Dan.
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#Ralph 14. “He displays a sense of humor in these matters. ”
A bit like Bernard Manning? . …. Ralph, I had no idea that you were using New Mandala as a platform for the exhibition of your rapier wit and all round comedic talent….. Do carry on….
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Awesome post, Nick. The questions you asked TS were very well chosen and very informative.
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Dan: I understand that you are very angry about something, but not sure what that is. That anger deflects you from the point of the earlier quip: Unlike you, Vichai grasped the basic point suggesting a considerable intelligence and self awareness. Do try to calm down.
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Looks like Thaksin & Kevin Rudd have something else in common.
Both were deposed by a coup, both were (in part) to blame for their own downfalls, and both get mobbed by their supporters
Will both fade away, or will they hang around like a bad smell? (a la General Prem)
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@Vichai
Um, I think you are exaggerating that Thaksin is a real hreat to Thailand. If you don’t want Thaksin, all you need to do is do not vote for him. He cannot force you to vote for you. He cannot force you to love him. He cannot jail you if you criticise him. And if he loses the election he cannot use unconstitutional methods to get into power (at least not now, anyway).
I believe the real threat to Thailand should be someone who forces people to love him, jails people who criticise him, and can approve, support, or acquiesce to any unconstitutional methods to get anyone he wants into power. Do you know who that person is?
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# 16 John Smith….”Thais have democratically elected a PT govt so we need to respect that vote), will bring long-term and meaningful change to Thailand.”
Elections throughout history have often thrown up terrible and brutal leaders….. Benito Mussolini, George W Bush, Margaret Thatcher, Adolf Hitler…… So yes the results of these elections should be respected in the same way as the US elections in 2000 were respected… But that doesn’t mean one is forced to say either Chalerm Yubamrung or Dick Cheney are anything other than damaging to the nations they have ruled or do rule.
Secondly…. Why on earth, after all this time, do you think these tired old mafia faces (or their little sisters) are going to bring ‘long term and meaningful change’? They are going to do exactly what they did in the past and exactly the same as most Thai politicians always do…. They will exploit their positions for business and financial advantage.
“:Thirdly – why is Dan (aka Dan White) always so personal and abusive when he makes any comment?”
Says the sock puppet…….
#19 Ralph”Dan: I understand that you are very angry about something”…..
Your ‘understanding’ clearly contains some fairly serious flaws.
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First let me thank Nick for a very well done report. It is without a doubt the most detailed report of the little get together. His attempts to get reactions about the reconciliation and amnesty are very admirable. The leadership on both sides have a lot to lose if a full scale investigation of the violence is ever done.
I would also like to point out The John Smith in post #16 is not me and opinions expressed are in almost complete opposition to my own. To say that Thaksin and his gang of chao pho’s represents any sort of step forward in the democratic process for Thailand is ludicrous. As Dan in his post #22 says so eloquently:
“Why on earth, after all this time, do you think these tired old mafia faces (or their little sisters) are going to bring ‘long term and meaningful change’? They are going to do exactly what they did in the past and exactly the same as most Thai politicians always do…. They will exploit their positions for business and financial advantage.
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Dan
“Elections throughout history have often thrown up terrible and brutal leaders”
Elections have thrown up terrible leaders (although Mussolini was coup/royal imposed).
But what to do?
End the democratic electoral process and align with the forces opposed to democracy? After Bush came Obama. And Thatcher was eventually forced out by her own party after the Poll Tax riots. What would’ve been a better solution? A military coup in both UK and USA supported by shadowy figures in the elite and the royal family, who then impose a deeply unpopular President or PM on the people with all that being kept in place by the use of very violent force?
And no, despite all those clever PAD posters, Thaksin is not a Hitler. It trivializes the crimes of Hitler by making that comparison.
Thaksin is, in the grand context, of Thai politics a moot point. He understands and plays a system that he didn’t create. Others did.
The way some people invoke Thaksin it’s almost like there was some wonderful perfect democracy before he came on the scene. As you well know, there wasn’t.
I am also in complete agreement with you. Yes, Thaksin needs to be opposed. He also needs to be held to account for any criminal acts he undertakes or is involved in. But this must be done via democratic means, without interference from the Army or the monarchy or other elite groups who don’t like the competition. Having a coup, setting up a military decreed committee designed purely to focus on one person and then saying “you are guilty” is not the rule of law.
Previously the opposition to Thaksin was embodied via organizations like the PAD who are committed anti-democrats. In the past the so-called Thai “liberals” on both the left and right chose to ally themselves with the PAD. This helped create the conditions for the 2006 coup and the present round of conflict. And the “victims” of the coup (ordinary Thai voters) continually get blamed for it. “If you hadn’t been so stupid, so slavish in your support, so easily bought, then we wouldn’t have had to stage our coup. And you deserved to be shot when you came out to protest afterwards.”
Nick Nostitz offers a more rounded analysis where he looks at the larger, more complex historical forces at play here. If these forces had been allowed to play out in their own time, without the interference from the 2006 coup, and the Democrats and Abhisit had seized the moment and became true democrats instead of the phalangists that they are, in all likelihood Thaksin would’ve lost the 2009 or 2010 election, and Thailand could’ve moved on to a more stable future.
Now Thailand is looking to at least 2019 to remove Thaksin/PT democratically.
The best hope for a democratic opposition to Thaksin is to push the Democrats to throw out Abhisit and to completely re-imagine themselves, with new leaders and a new mindset. At the moment they act like they are born to rule or that their biggest hope is for another coup with the monarchy installing Mark as PM.
If that happens the price will likely be civil war.
Let’s hope democracy prevails even if it does take another 6 or 7 years to vote Thaksin out.
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Just to clarify:
We now have two “John Smiths” on New Mandala. I expect the simplest option is for the one with the yahoo.com e-mail address to choose a slightly different name. The other (hotmail.com) John Smith has been around for a while and, to ease confusion, we will need to distinguish between our two Johns. You are, of course, both very welcome here.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
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“Elections throughout history have often thrown up terrible and brutal leaders….. Benito Mussolini, George W Bush, Margaret Thatcher, Adolf Hitler……”
So tell us, oh wise Dan, which of these actually achieved office through popular elections?
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Nich
There’s more than one John Smith???
How can that be?
From now on I will call myself the “Pro-democracy John Smith” as opposed to the other one who seems to have ingested “The Nation’s guide to politics”.
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@Dan #22
“Elections throughout history have often thrown up terrible and brutal leaders….. Benito Mussolini, George W Bush, Margaret Thatcher, Adolf Hitler”
The PAD have made a concerted effort to discredit all tenants of democracy. They make arguments such as:
1) The electorate is too dumb to vote (surely, anyone who doesn’t vote the way I do is dumb)
2) People only vote for who they are paid to vote for. (There is no evidence to this – people can take money from anyone and then vote the way they want because ballots are secret. 20 million votes at 1000 baht each isn’t cheap, nor possible to conceal if it actually happened)
3) Politicians are corrupt, but the military is not. (right.)
4) Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, etc were elected. (No they were not! A complete lie. They were appointed in the same manner Abhisit was appointed.)
Godwin’s Law states, “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
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I wonder how long before “Pro-democracy John Smith” is shown to be an attempt at a milder form of Andrew Spooner.
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John Smith
Actually I am a milder, more democratic form of John Smith.
I am also called “John Smith” to the same degree you are called “John Smith”.
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Splendid work Nick Nostitz. Getting there, getting access, getting the pictures, getting as much interaction and “face” as you did, all high quality journalistic work. And you make the trip itself sound fun.
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John Smith #24
You huge flocks of John Smiths are confusing me!….
“And no, despite all those clever PAD posters, Thaksin is not a Hitler.”
Of course not. He is a brutal serial rights abuser….. But to equate him with Adolf Hitler is absurd and symptomatic of idiotic PAD hatespeak (the kind idiotic hatespeak that was also blasting 24 hour from the UDD stage at Rajaprasong…. They both use the same incipient fascist methods of rabble rousing and brainwashing with vitriol). … The point about the virtues of action as opposed to the virtue of simply being elected is actually the point and has nothing to do with whether Thakisn is like Hitler or not. In 1933 the Nazis gained by far the largest number of votes of any party contesting and Hitler was thus able to pass the enabling act that put them into power…… So…. I am sorry about that Mrs and Mrs Blumnthal!…. Don’t look so glum!….. You will actually be ‘democratically’ gassed if that gives you and all the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, leftists and mentally handicapped any comfort. … Its the peoples choice you know.
#28 John inbkk….”The PAD have made a concerted effort to discredit all tenants of democracy.”…..
Indeed they have. Largely because no one would vote for them if they fielded candidates and they have a mission to fight their increasing irrelevance with a lurch into yet ever more virulent nationalism…. And they too, like the UDD stage, use distinctly fascist methods of propagandising and hatespeak….. Nor do they have potential to be anything other than a regressive and reactionary movement unlike the UDD which does have elements that could propel them to be a truly a truly progressive force. This will never happen whist the majority of the UDD remain simply a platform for furthering the interests of ‘the boss’, Thaksin Shinawatra, and his clique….. Given the moribund, corrupt, chaotic and disdainful mess that the Democrats are, sections of the UDD dropping Thaksin is the only hope for any meaningful expectation of preventing Thailand becoming a one party state or descending into even more serious conflict than it has already undergone.
The rest of your points seem to be veering off track into an attack on the PAD, which whilst entirely justified in my view, is not really what this thread is about from what I can tell….. Nor is Godwin’s law of any interest…. There are two many parallels with unrest and the growth of fascism in Europe in the 1930s for it not to come up….. Especially in a debate where people claim that the fact that someone has won an election makes it wrong to question their motives, actions or politics….
Thaksin has proven again and again that his repeated election wins give him the right to trample the institutions, have people murdered at will without arrest or trial and plunder the nations wealth….. That is distinctly counter productive and anti democratic view. His repeated elections wins did not and do not give him these rights any more than they would to the democrats in the unlikely event they managed to win an election. The present government of Thailand in the shape of Thaksin nominees and the old gangster faces of people like Chalerm and and Banharn is deeply questionable and there is no effective opposition because the Dems are no better. Democracy cannot work without effective dissent and a genuine choice and since the political culture of Thailand is so incredibly corrupt and Peua Thai are the only show in town, democracy as a reality remains elusive despite the fact that people get to cast a vote every now and then for any one or other of the gangsters and feudal family candidates on offer…… Thonburia, Supan, Buriram, Surat… It doesn’t matter which party these feudal strongmen are in… They represent the system and Thaksin is simply just one of them doing the same business in the same way, but with slightly upgraded PR tricks that work.
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And John, just to add….
“And Thatcher was eventually forced out by her own party after the Poll Tax riots. What would’ve been a better solution? A military coup in both UK and USA”
She was…. I was there covering it for the Observer newspaper….. And nor was it any solution in Thailand in 2006 (although it’s a pretty shaky parallel to be fair). When Thakisn first became PM he was widely backed across the social spectrum (including amongst more affluent sectors of Bangkokians) and by 2006 was widely loathed by the exact same people once they saw he was not a ‘new broom’ but just another lying business man and deal maker snout-in-trough, the Temasak deal really showing where his priorities lay, although it was already clear….. Many Thai people, especially those who had supported hin as a conduit to more modern and fairer governance rather than just a PM who ran programs they felt alleviated their dire poverty, saw through him…. The coup set back everything and gave him the perfect vehicle to become the utterly fraudulent ‘people’s hero’ – a card he play so cynically to this day in order to advance the his business/political interests.
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Surprised that there is no comment about the irony of a mass Thai political rally in a town whose name is roughly translated as “defeat of Siam”.
It is difficult to understand without context, but it is somewhat disturbing that they seem to be paying special reverence to Kali. Rah, rah for death and destruction. Perhaps this is in line with Jatuporn’s alleged Mark/Thep Taug death wish (BTW suspect the feeling is mutual). Anyway I’m sure this was all light hearted jest in the name of reconciliation.
Anyway it is quite amusing to see a Uni from a US satellite/puppet state is so self confident that it can pontificate on the affairs of the world’s most populist region.
If I were in OZ, I may think a little more about why our head of state is an English woman of German descent or why we are hosting a permanent USMC base.
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Dan now says: “The point about the virtues of action as opposed to the virtue of simply being elected is actually the point and has nothing to do with whether Thakisn is like Hitler or not. In 1933 the Nazis gained by far the largest number of votes of any party contesting and Hitler was thus able to pass the enabling act that put them into power…… ”
Sure, I can ignore high school historical clangers, and can accept that you seem unable to tell an election from a coup.
But on the 1933 election, do have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933. Context matters.
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#34 Yojimbo
“Surprised that there is no comment about the irony of a mass Thai political rally in a town whose name is roughly translated as “defeat of Siam”.
That was mentioned here
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2012/04/16/when-thaksin-comes-home/
Post 3
#35 Ralph…s “Sure, I can ignore high school historical clangers, and can accept that you seem unable to tell an election from a coup.”
Your point is? The page says this, “Federal elections were held in Germany on 5 March 1933. The Nazis registered a large increase in votes again emerging as the largest party by far, nevertheless they failed to obtain absolute majority. Thanks to the success in the poll, the party leader Adolf Hitler – appointed Chancellor since 30 January – was able to pass the Enabling Act on 23 March, which effectively gave him the power of a dictator.”
I said
“In 1933 the Nazis gained by far the largest number of votes of any party contesting and Hitler was thus able to pass the enabling act that put them into power…… ”
What is it that you are taking issue with here Ralph?
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Dan
“In 1933 the Nazis gained by far the largest number of votes of any party contesting and Hitler was thus able to pass the enabling act that put them into power…… ”
And what has that got to do with Thaksin and Pheu Thai?
Or have you unearthed evidence that Thaksin and PT are about to create their own “enabling act” and then embark on a genocide?
If you haven’t, comparing PT’s 2011 election victory to Hitler’s in 1933 is ludicrous.
I’m unsure what it is you’re exactly trying to say by invoking Hitler and 1933.
Of course you might be arguing that democracy as a form of political practice is a failure because it helped bring people like Hitler to power.
I’d disagree.
Or you might be making an argument that democracies have inherent flaws in them and can lead to the election of “bad” people.
To a point I’d agree with that.
But what is your solution?
No-one here, least of all myself, has ever argued PT’s 2011 election victory is emblematic of perfect democracy. But compared to military coups and snipers being used against civilians it is progress.
If the Thai people don’t like them the point is that PT can be voted out. The recent by-election at Pathum Thani revealed that.
And compare what PT said after that defeat to the usual line of “dumb kwai, bought by Thaksin” put out by the Dems when they lose.
The clue to their electoral success lies in that.
And Thaksin’s formidable skills as a campaigner – Nick’s report of him taking two and a half hours to meet everyone is key. Can you imagine Abhisit doing that? Not in a million years. He’d sneer at the poor Thais and talk in his “perfect English” to a enraptured Western reporter who’d then report on what a wonderful politician Abhisit is.
I also don’t think Thaksin has ever hidden his desire to be incredibly rich. But has he secured US$35 billion via Thai taxpayers? I think not. At least he managed to actually help create wealth rather than accrue it without any scrutiny or oversight.
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Dan# 36
The issue here is that your statement only shows how superficial you know abou the matter regarding Hitler ascendent to power.
Hitler didn’t have any power after March 1933 election. Far from it, he was appointed by Hiddenburg as the chanceller, a ceremonial position with no real political power. Only when Hitler orcharestrate the Reichstag Fire incident that Hiddenburg gave ways, under then German constitution article 48 which lead to the Reichstag Fire Deree that Hitler start to have any real power. His position was later solidify by the Enabling act which effectively put all power under the chanceller.
Yes, Hitler was an appointed dictator, not the elected one.
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Fascinating to know what Mr T and Sanoh Thienthong had to talk about.
The date of Mr. T’s flight to Bkk and a future cabinet position for Mr. S or his nominee?
Surely not.
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# 37 John Smith
“Of course you might be arguing that democracy as a form of political practice is a failure because it helped bring people like Hitler to power.”
No…. Not a failure as a form of political practice… Simply that to function successfully democracy depends on more than simply casting votes. It is far more complex than that and depends on the integrity of the institutions that one needs to support it and the effective regulation of abuses … And this has a great deal to do with all the political parties and most of the political players within Thailand…. As an example, it should be the democratic right of the citizen of any democracy not to be summarily murdered (without arrest or trial for anything at all) by agents of the state on the orders of the government of the day, simply because some local cop perceived you as being part of a wider social ill or the local mafia chief has a grudge against you…. I would see that not being murdered arbitrarily by agents the state is a fairly fundamental democratic right….. If state institutions feel thbey have the democratic right to summarily execute their own citizens without arrest or trial, then the institutions are or have been pervereted and democracy is not in place.
“If you haven’t, comparing PT’s 2011 election victory to Hitler’s in 1933 is ludicrous.”
I didn’t compare PT’s 2011 election victory to Hitler’s in 1933 …. And indeed if I had done it would have been ridiculous. Your reasoning is fallacious and peopled with straw men (which means I have s strong feeling I know what what this ‘John Smith’s ‘ real name is). PTs 2011 election victory looked pretty emphatic to me…. Even with margins for error and the inevitable levels of chicanery, I don’t think anyone could dispute it as an outright PT victory by a long very way.
“I’m unsure what it is you’re exactly trying to say by invoking Hitler and 1933. ”
I also invoked George W Bush and Margaret Thatcher…. If you bother to read the thread you would understand why……. This is not about direct repro of political and historical situations…. It is to illustrate that ‘democracy’ is dependent on a complex set of factors both in the practice of elections and the ‘democratic’ administration of government….. The former does not guarentee the latter.
“Or you might be making an argument that democracies have inherent flaws in them and can lead to the election of “bad” people. ”
That is true…
“But what is your solution? ”
Why do you think there is neccesarily a solution on offer?…
“No-one here, least of all myself, has ever argued PT’s 2011 election victory is emblematic of perfect democracy. But compared to military coups and snipers being used against civilians it is progress. ”
Yes of course…. That is exactly what I have been arguing…. We could also chuck into the mix politiically sponsored thugs murdering commuters and passers by on Silom Road or intimdating the sick and the dying in nearby hospitals….. Elections were always due. Early elections were demanded by the mob and were granted and the political masters of that mob then refused them, highlighting that the demand itself was never sincere…. What followed was horrible carnage….. And then PT won the elections anyway which was always likely to have been the outcome….. Approx 91 dead for nowt.
“And Thaksin’s formidable skills as a campaigner – Nick’s report of him taking two and a half hours to meet everyone is key.”
No one would deny his populist skills in the pursuance of his own interest.
“Can you imagine Abhisit doing that? Not in a million years. He’d sneer at the poor Thais and talk in his “perfect English” to a enraptured Western reporter who’d then report on what a wonderful politician Abhisit is.”
Abhisit has skills as a populist are useless…. Which is a bit of a disadvantage if you are running for office….. Especially when you are heading up a party that has all the contemporary political appeal of tepid kippers.
“I also don’t think Thaksin has ever hidden his desire to be incredibly rich. But has he secured US$35 billion via Thai taxpayers? I think not. At least he managed to actually help create wealth rather than accrue it without any scrutiny or oversight. ”
I hear the cry of the lesser-spotted-lobbyist……
#36 Tarrin “His position was later solidify by the Enabling act which effectively put all power under the chanceller. Yes, Hitler was an appointed dictator, not the elected one. ”
And?…. He won the largest percentage of votes. This is not about direct parallels. It is about the fragility of outcomes when the institutions are weak or malleable…… Hence democracy is about rather more than voting. Dictatorship by the back door is a perfectly feasible result of weak institutions and a systemically corrupt political class…. And is a rather more likely outcome in Thailand than some sort of utopian march to true happiness given the truly mafia like collection of ne’er do wells that people the political class and indeed the business class (although you might just want to knock those two into one largerly).
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erewhon #39
The date of Mr. T’s flight to Bkk and a future cabinet position for Mr. S or his nominee?
You mean another cabinet position. There is already one.
Thanis Thienthong: Deputy Interior Minister.
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2011/08/10/yinglucks-cabinet/
That is a daughter I believe.
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Dan
Using an historical anomaly to make a general point about democracy and democratic elections wouldn’t get past a high school debate.
I could point out 1000 comparisons that reveal the democratic system working very well when a politician wins an election.
You’re only making yourself look silly by carrying on with Hitler/Thaksin comparison.
I’d give it up.
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Dan (and I apologize to others for being off topic and having to make an obvious point several times): The first point is that you seem unable to distinguish between a coup and an election (as in your claim about Mussolini). This suggests you are likely to be equally likely to be blind on Thailand.
Another point is that you claimed both Hitler and Mussolini were elected to power. Both are high school clangers. You ignore this by saying something else.
A third point, based on your most recent reply is that you are unable to read beyond a first paragraph. That might explain why you seem unable to gain any context on Thailand’s politics. You quote the first para of Wikipedia. But then the same article says things like: “In early February, the Nazis “unleashed a campaign of violence and terror that dwarfed anything seen so far.” It goes on to discuss massive censorship and a reign of terror. Then followed the Reichstag fire, leading to an “emergency law [that] removed many civil liberties…”. It continues saying a “combination of terror, repression and propaganda was mobilized in every… community, large and small, across the land.”
As I said, context matters, and all of this is why in “1933 the Nazis gained by far the largest number of votes of any party contesting…”. by way of a reign of terror.
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#42 & 43 Ralph and pro-Oligarch John Smith
Any chance either of you two guys are actually going to get round to addressing any topic raised in the last post and a few previous? Maybe, or perhaps, when that point concerns the state sponsored murder of Thai citizens without a arrest or trial under the auspices of a government with a popularly and democratically elected majority in the house?…. Or will you continue to evade and sidestep (you both appear practiced).
Or even address answers posted to your own previous misinterpretations?……. Go on gents…..Give it a go.
Or are you going to continue to willfully misunderstand the points made about other elected politicians throughout the last century, drawing inept conclusions?
Here are a couple starters for you.
A. Chalerm Yubamrung?……Any opinions?
B. The relative validity of democracy in a culture of ‘democracy’ where those fragile institutions are abused….. You can start with the Weimar Republic and Adolf Hitler or Mussolini…. The rise of both of which demonstrate just how institutions that define democracy can be manipulated when those institutions are fragile…. But I don’t think you will address that….. will you? Having missed the point in the first place.
Or you could tell me about your love for both Margaret Thatcher and George W Bush…. Given that both were democratically elected (bar the odd hanging chad in one case)….. But I again I think you will shy away from that too…..
So lets pick a starting point…. And pick Chalerm Yubamrung since he is actually Deputy PM and is a good an example of how a ‘democracy’ movement can pick a well known strong arm gangster and put him into power, knowing all along that him actually being in power would be the outcome….
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Thaksin only came on the scene a decade or so ago, and whilst a product & manipulator of the ‘system’, he’s not the root of all its problems.
Whilst he has many shortcomings, we can at least be thankful that its not illegal to criticize Thaksin, and the army doesn’t kill to ‘protect’ him.
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Dan #40
He won the largest percentage of votes. This is not about direct parallels.
Yes, Hitler won the largest vote BUT he had no executive power, come on why do you think I even mentioned about Reichtag fire or Constitution article 48?
Hence democracy is about rather more than voting. Dictatorship by the back door is a perfectly feasible result of weak institutions and a systemically corrupt political class
Yes democracy is more than voting, totally agree, but you have degrading your point by saying “Hitler came trough power from voting” sort of direction since it is obviously not the case.
Thaksin is obviously not the first person who make Thailand what it is today, our executive institution has never been strong, even by the 1997 constitution and the evidence of that is our 60 years history of continuous coup, political chaos and bloodshed.
Your way of think that “political morality” (if that’s what you mean since I totally dont get what point you are trying to make) is going to fix anything has been tired for decades and its not changing anything. That’s why many people here like “Pro-democracy John Smith ” CT or me has been suggesting that we should start from the Monarch institution and the military, not the political party.
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Dan: who is doing the avoiding? If you can’t get basic facts right, what’s the point? Missing points? Speak for yourself.
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Can I add my two cents into this Hitler debate?
I know very little about Hitler. What Tarrin said above is what I did not know. Perhaps you did a history course in uni. I did not. But this is what I know about Hitler from the Course I did at university:
1) Hitler brainwashed the Germans to be fanatical to him;
2) He enacted the law which made it illegal for anyone to oppose his party’s policy;
3) Anyone who found to be opposing his regime will be imprisoned;
and
4) Anyone can report anyone to authorities they do not support Hitler’s regime. There is rampant witchhunting in the German society at that era. Fanatican Germans were actively looking for people who did not support Hitler and report them to the authorities, believing that these people are ‘threat to national security’.
Just for these four facts, I’d say the analogy between Thaksin and Hitler is not convincing. The reasons it is unconvincing is as followed:
1) While it is true Thaksin used the media to gain people’s support, his attempt would not cross the line to ‘brainwashing’. Brainwashing means claiming that x is the nation, without x, the nation cannot survive, every good thing in the nation occurs because of x etc. Thaksin has not gone that far;
2) Thaksin never enacted the law which made it illegal for anyone to criticise him;
3) Thaksin never jailed anyone who does not vote for him;
4) No one can report the person who merely does not support Thaksin’s party to authorities for that person to be criminally guilty. Thaksin supporters do not actively witchhunt people who oppose him, and do not brand them as threat to national security.
However, there is one person in Thailand who did these four things Hitler did, and this person also has a lot of fanatics actively witchhunting people who do not love him and report them to authorities. So I ask you this:
1) I believe you know who that person is, do you?
2) And because what this person is doing is so similar to what Hitler had been doing, the Hitler analogy would suit this person more than Thaksin, wouldn’t it?
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The basis of the question of democracy vs. something else producing better or worse politicians and leaders is dumb. Democracies produce dicks (Chalerm, Bush, Bjelke-Petersen and so on) and so do all the something elses (think of the raving loonies who have been monarchs).
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#45 Nganadeeleg “Thaksin only came on the scene a decade or so ago”
No, he came on the scene 2 decades ago when he entered politics and was in government in the 90s before he became PM as leader of Thai Rak Thai at the turn of the century…. General Chamlong was an initial supporter. ….. Banharn? Chavalit?
#47 Ralph “Dan: who is doing the avoiding? If you can’t get basic facts right, what’s the point? Missing points? Speak for yourself.”
That Hitler came to power by winning the largest section of the votes in 1933 and forcing the passing of the enabling act?…… As I said already, which fact are you disputing?
So you (and no doubt Pro Oligarch ‘John Smith’ in an upcoming post) will continue to march your straw men up blind alleys, whilst clutching at straws in order not to answer the salient questions that make up the central theme of this thread…. I can’t say I am surprised.
CT #45 “Just for these four facts, I’d say the analogy between Thaksin and Hitler is not convincing.”
And nor has anyone made this analogy apart from you…. It would be utterly absurd to claim one corrupt and self serving oligarch in any way serves as a parallel with the author of one of the most brutal and evil crimes against humanity in history……. The echo is in the fragility and maleable nature of state institutions within a weak ‘democracy’ such as the Weimar Republic….. And a separate point about the way fascism employed the mass brainwashing of crowds with hatespeak….. Something parcticed by both the Red and Yellow leadership. This echoing of Fascist method does not make Thaksin or even Sonthi ‘like Hitler’…. It just makes him sound a bit like him when he is trying to encourage his supporters to violent acts.
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@Dan #36
You quoted the first paragraph in the wikipedia article which, on the surface, would appear to prove your point. Unfortunately for you, the rest of us read beyond that first paragraph.
The PAD has made a concerted effort to discredit democracy. Using selective and even false information to ‘prove’ that point is their tool.
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@Ralph #49
And if that leader is a ‘dick’, democracy, over that ‘something else’, has three benefits:
1) the majority approve of him
2) his powers are clearly defined and limited
3) he has an expiration date, ie can be impeached and must face re-election
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Thanks for the intriguing inputs from everyone, Nick Nostitz especially.
Ok, i got some thoughts not quite same with everybody. While the focal point in most posts remains on Thaksin (and comparison with Hitler and the alike), maybe we should also look at the red shirts who made the effort to meet him. True, there are many emotional expressions with tears and hugs involved. Yet, why are they still so “fanatical” (in CT’s word) or obsessed with Thaksin even when he’s been out of the country for quite some time? How do they change from saving all the tears and flowers only to the monarchy to giving all out so generously to Thaksin? How has Thaksin become an alternative to receive these strong gestures that used to be reserved only to HM?
Well you can go on to stick with “brainwash” if you like. But CT makes a good point that Thaksin has yet to cross the line to brainwash people. What I see is really that people see more of what this man represents or represneted. He delivers/ed something the red shirts desire — a political rule that honors their dignity and speasks in their interest.
When we only believe personal charisma is all that a leader uses to appeal to supporters, we really miss out what the supporters see in their own eyes and what they think in their own minds. Personal charm may win ears and eyes, but ideological and material delivery win hearts.
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johninbkk: in theory, yes, of course. But dicks can also try to screw with the electoral system (oops, now Dan will liken me to racist English comedians). Of course, the dicks in the other systems (like absolute monarchies or Fascist states) don’t even have to bother about that.
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@Ralph #54
“But dicks can also try to screw with the electoral system”
Oh yes, definitely: http://m.bangkokpost.com/topstories/230850
But . . . the 2007 Constitution is hardly democratic.
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@Dan
I never said you compared Thaksin to Hitler. Read my post again. It was not even addressed to you, but to everyone here. In fact, I did note your post above that you think the PAD comparing Thaksin to Hitler is idiotic. The person who should be compared to Hitler in Thailand is not Thaksin. Rather it is the person who the PAD wants to protect and defend the most whose behaviour is moat analogous to Hitler. Unfortunately the PAD is too blind to see this blatant fact.
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@Bunny #53
I will try to answer your question as to why there are still many Red Shirts who are ‘fanatical’ to Thaksin.
Perhaps they were the ones who benefited from his government policy? Thaksin’s OTOP project changed the lives of many people. I have read about many people who suddenly become ‘well to do businessmen’ after OTOP because their product became famous. His medical welfare policy saved the lives of many, who were unable to afford medical treatment before this policy exists.
Before Thaksin, I’d say no one had done much for poor people in Thailand. The Royal Projects, whilst having some benefit to the poor, are done with the sole purpose to propagandalise the Royal Family at the cost of the taxpayers, without much consideration on how the projects should be run to become effective and independent from taxpayers’ monetary support. Yet the poor saw it as an attempt from the Royal Family to assist them.
Thaksin did the same thing the Royal Family did, but he also went one step ahead: he came up with a plan to make these projects really work. So this is why many poor people whose lives changed because of Thaksin still regard him as a hero of some sort. So, I must say, although I cringe seeing Red Shirts hugging and crying Thaksin, I would still understand the reasons behind it.
This is why Thaksin is a threat to the Democrat Party. The Democrat Party had years to do this before Thaksin burst out into the scene, yet they never did what Thaksin had done. And now it is too late for them to do it; the poor and unprivileged had made their choice.
As for me, I abstain my vote altogether. I see no point voting for Thaksin who plays politics mainly for his own interest. Nor would I vote for the Democrat party who plays politics for the elites’ interest. Although I am a Thai, but I prefer to live overseas and pay tax to the country that actually looks after its taxpayers and listen to what they say seriously.
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Going back to the article, I’ve had a thought . . .
What if the amnesty plan is changed so that it:
1) does not grant amnesty to violent crimes
2) grants amnesty to political crimes
3) cancels all politically motivated charges/sentences
4) the above rulings can be re-tried in court
Such a system would likely please the majority of all sides.
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Ct #56
No political figure in Thailand is really analogous to Hitler. And it is kind of belittling the terrible crimes of the holocaust and the horrific bigotry that preceded it across both Western Europe and Eastern Europe to even bring the monster into it…… It is a Red Herring….. The constitutional context of 1930s Europe is not. Just look how many changes of government France underwent between World War One and World War Two….. The PAD brainwashing depended on mass hysteria and a lack of knowledge to convince people of the hatespeak…. It was and is awful….. If ‘Bunny’ #53 believes that the Red Stage and Thaksin didn’t employ exactly the same methods then he/she obviously didn’t spend much time at Rajaprasong…… The hate message of the Thaksin fluffers was relentless… Arisaman even urged the crowd to ‘hunt down’ the drivers of BTS trains because the BTS was the ‘tool of the amart’……. Revolting.
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Dan said
“No political figure in Thailand is really analogous to Hitler”
I skimmed your posts above (did not really read it) and although your posts received a lot of negative votes, I did give you the benefit of the doubt. But if you really believe that there was no figure in Thailand who had done the same four things Hitler had done, which are:
-brainwashing the Thais
-made it illegal for Thais to criticise him
-jailed those who opposed him
-acquiesced to the withhunting activities his fanatics do to expose those who opposed him
then I have no choice but to withdraw my benefit of the doubt I initially gave to you. From now on I guess I will do the same thing with your posts I did to people who post nonsense like Tony Cartalucci or LandDestroyer: ignore them completely.
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“Although I am a Thai, but I prefer to live overseas and pay tax to the country that actually looks after its taxpayers and listen to what they say seriously.” (CT#57)
This country, I need to know (if CT will oblige). A country that listens seriously to what CT says (and CT has lots to say for his tax money, I can imagine) must have big ears indeed or deaf.
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Dan said that the question of whether or not a democracy is successful is complex ” and depends on the integrity of the institutions that one needs to support it and the effective regulation of abuses …” (C.40)
I think that just about everyone would agree with that. The question is in Thailand about precisely which institutions have failed democracy. Dan mentions the Thaksin era police and justice system and many, including myself, would agree with that. Others would also list a few more institutions – the army, the media, the Democrats as an opposition party, and … I can’t think of any more institutions.
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# 58 johninbkk… “Going back to the article, I’ve had a thought . . .”
If we could…. Nick’s thorough, thoughtful and excellent work deserves better than to be drawn into a mirror image of the worst kind of PAD propaganda here on New Mandala….. Shocking.
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@CT #57
nice to hear some response! I agree with you. That’s exactly why I wrote in the post that personal charm of Thaksin cannot fully explain the stubborn political preference of the red shirts. The upcountry citizens believe not only in his capacity but also his commitment to help them.
If I may just add one more point to your comment, benefiting from Thaksin’s policy is not the whole story yet. People feel proud and empowered because they can elect someone who is responsive and accountable to them. The meaningful electoral participation gives people not only dignity but also hope for better future. That’s why they stick with Thaksin who symbolizes political efficacy and a more promising future.
And Thaksin’s electoral mandate is probably the envy of the Democrats. I understand your abstention too CT. I feel frustrated with any Thai politician as well. But really the provincial voters see something different. For them, Thaksin is a much better alternative.
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@johninbkk #58
the thing about violence is tricky: the red want the Democrats to be responsible for the May 2010 crackdown; the red also want the yellow to be prosecuted properly for airport occupation; the yellow and the Democrats want the red to be tried for inciting violence in both songkran 2009 and 2010; and many violent incidents happened in the provinces…
if amnesty is not granted to violent cases, the fight will continue; if it is granted, they will not accept it easily either.
that’s a hard talk on reconciliation table.
but i think they’ll get over it… the Reconciliation Show will go on even when some are still screaming discontent.
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Eventually these endless moronic Hitler tropes wear out the idiots who excel in them, was my impression. But as CT & Co. above ably demonstrate above, I will be wrong as usual in such things.
(The country tax collector deserved every bit of tax collected from CT. Fair exchange for the never ending Hitler-cum-Thailand CT oration, eh).
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@Vichai said:
“This country, I need to know (if CT will oblige). A country that listens seriously to what CT says (and CT has lots to say for his tax money, I can imagine) must have big ears indeed or deaf.”
You either misread my post or are distorting my words, which I am not surprised, because it was not the first time. What I said above is the country which ‘looks after the taxpayers well and listen to what they say seriously’. You distorted my words by substituting ‘myself’ to replace ‘taxpayers’ (notice the pluralisation)…which definitely means more than myself.
I suggest you to read people’s posts more carefully and try to interpret what they say in a reasonable manner. It is not that I care about your future if you did not change your habit; it is just that I find your habit annoying when I read how you distort or misinterpret my words.
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It’s quite amusing to the dismay of rank and file red shirt prai at the symbolic reconciliation meeting of Yingluck and Prem. Their movement was set up and funded by Thaksin first of all as a simple foil against the PAD and then greatly expanded to agitate for his return to Thailand with all corruption charges expunged and for the return of his assets.
Do the poor fools really believe that this was some kind of socialist political movement? Do they think he really cares about Nurse Kate or indeed anyone outside his own Chinese clan? Who do the prai now think Thaksin and his lackeys were referring to in his blistering tirades against the amartiya?
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Excellent article and photos, Nick.
Now I am waiting for your next report on the second anniversary of the innocent civilians’ massacre at Ratchaprasong, which will be held on the 19th of May 2012.
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Thaksin’s comments about Section 112 are also hilarious. “I have never really heard of 10 years, 15 years, not even 7 years in the old days.” How could he have heard of such sentences in the old days before the maximum penalty was increased from 3 years to 15 in the 70s by the military installed government? The monarchy seemed to be doing fine and was not under threat of extinction as a result of the lower maximum penalty prior to that? So why doesn’t Thaksin suggest repealing the military sponsored 70s amendment and reverting to the status quo prior to that with which all, except the right wing falangists were happy?
The answer to this can be easily unearthed through a cursory perusal of Thaksin’s personal litigious behavior prior to legging it to avoid prison. He made extensive use of Thailand’s anachronistic criminal libel laws to muzzle any type of adverse criticism. On the one hand Section 112 can be an extremely useful tool for him and preserving it or strengthening it further is a great way for him to show off his ersatz loyalty. On the other hand, the legal academics’ defense of Section 112 always revolves around the fact that the monarchy is unable to protect itself by pursuing criminal libel prosecutions in the way ordinary citizens can. A logical sequence of reforming or removing Section 112 would inevitably be a strong push to level the playing field by removing the wealthy non-royals’ version of it which is the criminal libel law. Quite simple.
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#68
“Do they think he really cares about Nurse Kate…” > Well, as Thaksin said, her mother might not agree with an amnesty, but she had to make a sacrifice “for the sake of the country.” Just like Yingluck had to make a “sacrifice” when she met Prem, I guess. (Ha!)
Look at this pinky picture…
http://nationmultimedia.com/politics/Thaksin-flying-to-England-for-Manchester-derby-30180825.html
Remember, in the election campaign, Abhisit tried to capitalize on the amnesty issue by telling the red shirts that they should very carefully consider whether they should vote for PT, because its policies included an amnesty, thereby undercutting the red’s desire for justice.
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#62 Tom Hoy “I think that just about everyone would agree with that. The question is in Thailand about precisely which institutions have failed democracy.”
That is not my point…. They all have pretty much… And the institutions have never actually been fully formed or established with more than a nod to a genuine democratic framework…. My point is about the liberty ‘elected’ politicians’ feel they have to abuse the institutions, ignore them, manipulate them and people them with their own families and cronies as soon as they get the chance and they all know this is part of political competition because those institutions are potentially up for grabs… This is not exclusive to aspiring democracies such as Thailand it has to be said…. But in Thailand it is a free-for-all and there is really very little to protect those institutions from the rapacious mauling of the feudal strong men that stand for election and win votes….
The fiction of ‘democracy’ and the placebo of voting are simply cosmetic enablers without any regulation of the democratic processes after the votes are cast and counted (leaving aside manipulations of the voting process itself). This is an ever advancing vicious circle that the likes of Thaksin (and the rest) exploit to the hilt…. And without wishing to provoke any point-missing-Hitler-obsessives out there…. It is an echo of what happened across a destabilised post World War One Europe…. Politicians knowing quite correctly that manipulating the institutions is an accepted part of the game…. A game they ALL understand.
That doesn’t mean you do away with elections… Its the only show in town… But it does mean that the politicians should be under greater scrutiny including those lauded by the Red shirts or who have done deals with PT to gain or regain office so they can continue to plunder now as they did before. …. And the politicians are not under scrutiny.
I re-iterate… The so called ‘War on Drugs’ was the ultimate illustration of this contempt for institutions and any semblance of ‘democratic’ rights since it involved both the rank perversion of the institutions themselves and the wholesale murder of citizens those institutions should exist to protect…. And those who claim they support ‘democracy’ will also say they supported that campaign of murder… The victims being ‘bad people’…… The aspirations to ‘democracy’ do not yet go hand in hand with any collective understanding of the obligations of democracy……. This is a continuing political manipulation that serves the rallying of mobs, but inhibits moving beyond the mob thinking that serves the present crew of Thai politicians and power brokers (across the board) quite well…..
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Dan# 72
Im curious, with your long and eraborate post, why you never mentioned the military and the monarch for a single time. You can blame politician all you want, but the core of the problem in thailand’s politic lays on this very 2 constitution.
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#72
I don’t mention the monarch because I don’t wish to be drawn into a discussion on the subject because I live and work in Thailand and I cannot discuss it freely and if I tried I would be constrained in what I say since the laws of Lese majeste are harsh and their application is terrifyingly capricious. Enough said?
The army comes under the definition of ‘all institutions’….. Although it usually acts also as a political faction…. The police is the same. They both fail the nation. We now have a police aligned government rather than a military aligned government. Neither is a good thing… How many more institutions would you like me to specify, without putting myself at risk of possible incarceration, since if Chalerm’s thought police are watching any website in the webasphere for LM content it is likely to be this one.
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And as a quick couple of examples look at the unseemly manouvreing by both the Red Shirt Leadership and the Democrats on the approaching military reshuffle of 2010… Or indeed look at who is the present chief of police. This is all standard ops for all factions in Thai politics…. And of course it doesn’t take much speculation on the quid pro quo with the deal struck between the army and the new Thaksin adminstration on Yingluck not messing with the army and poking Prayuth….. Business is business after all, and both factions are there to do business above all…. Business is the name of the game.
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“Dan”:
“Business is business after all, and both factions are there to do business above all…. Business is the name of the game.”
And yet again, we are stuck in the same endless, narrow and entirely fruitless discussion solely based on analyses of the elite conflict and elite machinations, completely excluding and disregarding the changing perception and position of ordinary people who in the past years became increasingly politically interested and active.
What deals have supposedly stuck, or not is almost entirely based on rumor and speculation, and supported by articles of so-called journalists who mostly base their points also on rumor and supposition, while in the area we actually can get provable facts – in the developments of the grassroots activists, hardly anyone makes the effort to investigate.
I see you talking endlessly about Thaksin, etc. When in the last few years have you talked with Thaksin, or people close to Thaksin? And if you would have, how can you be sure that what is told to you, reflects reality and not just a reality they want you to know?
But then, have you ever systematically and thoroughly researched grassroots level organizations, which would be the only way to question elite statements given to you or the public?
I am sorry, Dan, but i am rather tired of debates and discussion purely based on speculation, with the aim to voice just another opinion, where no actual research in areas where we can research is base of such opinions.
The Siam Reap event has shown quite clearly that certain elites may want to continue business as usual, but it has shown as well that these elites nowadays are under scrutiny of their own supporters. This by itself proves that Thailand has changed to quite some degree already.
There is only a very limited number of journalists here who do bother with the grassroots angle in a systematic manner, but there are many more journalists who have very strong opinions, yet without having done almost no work whatsoever on what should be the base of our profession – working in the field.
And of course, the resulting discussion is then incredibly distorted, the natural result when articles on the subject matter are solely based on lunches in nice aircon restaurants with members of those elites, who often themselves have no more clue on grassroots developments as these Bangkok bar stool journalists.
How on earth can it happen that a photographer who is basically not interested in politics at all [me] has researched, photographed and written more on this subject matter in a place with a higher density of journalists than anywhere else in this region?
When will i see you sweating in the field at one or the other Red Shirt, or Yellow Shirt event? For somebody who has such strong opinions, you physical presence is quite elusive, or have you, by chance, reached a stage of omniscience?
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Dan #74
Again, you can bash the politicians as much as u want but the fact remains, it wouldnt solve anything if we dont talk about the role of the monarch and the military in Thailand politic. The fact that you somehow down play the deal between PT and the military just being “business” without seeing beyond the “culture” behind it is the very problem why we have this endless argument without some solid solution. I have heard the thing you said, about how politicians are moraly bankrupt and so on, for decades. Thais education has been teaching that in school, our executive branch is the only institution that is under the heaviest scrutiny, does it change anything?
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#75 Tarrin
” The fact that you somehow down play the deal between PT and the military just being “business” without seeing beyond the “culture” behind it is the very problem”
I am not downplaying it…. And I just did talk about the role of the Military and indeed other institutions… As I said before I am actually not able to discuss the role of the monarch here on the world wide web and I just explained why… You may if you wish. That is your choice which you are free to make according to what you feel the dangers may be depending on where you are and how accurate you believe your interpretation of criminal law may be.
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#77 Nick
“And yet again, we are stuck in the same endless, narrow and entirely fruitless discussion solely based on analysis of the elite conflict and elite machinations, completely excluding and disregarding the changing perception and position of ordinary people who in the past years became increasingly politically interested and active.”
These are two different discussions Nick…. Although interrelated… Both are valid… Historically machinations amongst elites have a habit of stifling the aspirations of ordinary people… The fact that there is a change in awareness amonsgt the populace guarantees nothing although one can only hope for postive progress…. Although you are right that there is a huge sea change in Thailand…
“in the developments of the grassroots activists, hardly anyone makes the effort to investigate.”
I am not interested in activists… I am interested in ordinary people living their lives grass roots or otherwise…. And as you well know I spend a great deal of time for my (non political) work across pretty much every province of this country and its neighbours often in the oddest and most obscure corners and have done for many years…. Activists are low on my list of people I consider representative.
“I am sorry, Dan, but i am rather tired of debates and discussion purely based on speculation”
Be as tired as you like Nick… A measure of speculation is part of your job too… It is part of the process of analysis and the process of how you deal with the information that you have gathered. It is not simply a recitation of facts however scrupulous in gathering them you may be.. … ‘Not seeing the wood for the trees’ is sometimes a trap you fall into in my opinion…. Although your attention to facts is what will always allow you to rejig because you are not big on wild assumptions whatever your personal views may be….
“The Siam Reap event has shown quite clearly that certain elites may want to continue business as usual, but it has shown as well that these elites nowadays are under scrutiny of their own supporters. This by itself proves that Thailand has changed to quite some degree already.”
The penny may well be dropping amongst much of the Red Shirt throng… But the point remains how much the percentage of the movement will remain mainly a platform for Thaksin as a demagogue and how large a percentage will engage in a more progressive agenda… This is something that we have discussed at length over the last year or so. It remains the moot point and comes back to where future opposition to ALL the elites, including the newer mercantile class of Thaksin et al, will come from.
“There is only a very limited number of journalists here who do bother with the grassroots angle in a systematic manner, but there are many more journalists who have very strong opinions, yet without having done almost no work whatsoever on what should be the base of our profession – working in the field. ”
I spend most of my working life in the field.
“How on earth can it happen that a photographer who is basically not interested in politics at all [me] has researched, photographed and written more on this subject matter in a place with a higher density of journalists than anywhere else in this region?”
Nick, one of the reasons I like you and why you want me to have your children is that we have a an in-common respect for those who go into the field rather than those who rely on phoners or silly chatrooms…. This is one reason I like your work…. The other is that you write well in English which is rare for someone whose first language is not English. You, however, are not the only one…..
“When will i see you sweating in the field at one or the other Red Shirt, or Yellow Shirt event? For somebody who has such strong opinions, you physical presence is quite elusive, or have you, by chance, reached a stage of omniscience? ”
You can see me sweating in small villages and obscure towns across Thailand, Laos and Cambodia for about 6 months of any given year if you want to jump on the back of the bike and hang out in Mae Hong Son, Beung Khan, Mukdahan, Sangkhlaburi, Chainat, Trang , Surin, Ratchaburi etc etc ….. I have no interest in attending the meetings of Red or Yellow activists although I have actually done quite a lot of it when they came to my doorstep….. I am more interested in the opinions of the vast majority of people who are NOT activists becausse they are actually the vast majority of people…. And as I have said before a resigned cynicism and worries about the economy and how to make ends is meet is much of what I hear from far north to far south and across the Korat Plateau.
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Dan# 78
My point is not to force you to talk about the thai royal, but to point out that the executive brach is only a minor problem in this conflict. It would be more productive to talk about some hard topic and not the retailing of 1970s version of the anti liftist tale.
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@Nick #76
“articles of so-called journalists who mostly base their points also on rumor and supposition, while in the area we actually can get provable facts – in the developments of the grassroots activists, hardly anyone makes the effort to investigate.”
I visited the red shirt protests from 2008-2010 myself to see what they were like. Most of what I saw on the news/TV didn’t match the reality that I saw with my own eyes. Even basic facts were wrong.
Dan, if you put no effort into learning about the red shirts other than what you heard about them on the news or other anti-TS outlets, you should question the validity of your opinions based on that information.
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So instead of NM debates being trolled by likes of Stan G and Tony C we now have Dan White.
He’s repetitive, boring, incredibly long-winded and unable to keep an argument together, veering from the irrational to the plain weird.
Give ‘em enough rope I guess.
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#82 johninbkk
“Dan, if you put no effort into learning about the red shirts other than what you heard about them on the news or other anti-TS outlets, you should question the validity of your opinions based on that information.”
I lived very near Rajaprasong throughout much of the Red shirt protest and spent quite a lot of time there. I also spend a great deal of time in what one might consider heartland red areas of Isan and the north. ….. When Rajaprasong was cleared I was in Chiang Mai and saw the reactions there as people absorbed the news. Not long after that I was based around Udon, Kalasin and Kon Kaen for a while…. Nor do I watch very much TV.
Johninkk….. You might consider getting out of Bangkok once in a while in order that you broaden your horizons. Then you could call yourself Johnintherealworld.
#78 Tarrin
“It would be more productive to talk about some hard topic and not the retailing of 1970s version of the anti liftist tale.”
I am not quite sure what you mean. Can you explain.
#83 blah blah
“He’s repetitive, boring, incredibly long-winded and unable to keep an argument together, veering from the irrational to the plain weird.”
Brand new sock puppet for a brand new day….. You certainly have energy….
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“Dan”:
For someone who is not interested in meeting Red Shirt activists you have very strong opinions about them though…
Your claims of “the vast majority” remind me of the Democrat Party’s constant claims in 2010, that only a “minority” group would try to pressure the by their party led government coalition into elections by “mob rule”, yet only to be defeated by a huge margin in the 2011 elections.
Given the close association between Red Shirts and Pueah Thai Party, and especially the post 2010 crackdown demonization of the Red Shirts by media, Democrat led government and military, their election win is quite a strong indicator that the Red Shirts and their sympathizers are not just a tiny minority. And yes, the double Democrat win in Red Shirt stronghold Pathum Thani under a weak election participation in both the by-elections and in the PAO elections is an indicator that the Pueah Thai party cannot just rest on its laurels because people will anyhow vote for them (there were, after the 2011 elections, frictions between the local Red Shirts and the Puaeh Thai Party).
Yes, i am aware how much time you spend in the field. But how much time do you spend in the villages of contemporary rural Thailand, and not just researching aspects of folkloristic Thailand?
How can you, while traveling in those areas, ignore the emergence of the Red Shirt Village Movement, for example?
Have you ever researched rural Thailand and Red Shirt involvement on local level, especially how this conflict transformed local politics through the empowerment that is a by the Red Shirts opponents often neglected factor that has transformed the sociopolitical landscape of Thailand.
Have you ever looked into the rural community radio stations and their influence in these villages?
You don’t even need to go that far – even communities in Bangkok with a high percentage of rural migrants are now politicized to a degree that has never been evident before.
And in both of these areas local Thais do what you for obvious reasons cannot do here on the net – they do discuss the monarchy institution quite openly and critically now. I live in such a community here in Bangkok. Yes, people talk a lot about their economical difficulties – as you mentioned (and of course their main topics are the normal human topics: gossip, food, etc). But in this connection these other subjects are talked and discussed about as well, as they are talked about in the home villages of these people.
And sorry, Dan, this is representative for contemporary Thailand.
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@Nick #84
“the double Democrat win in Red Shirt stronghold Pathum Thani”
It was a single win by the Dems (by a small margin), and a double loss by PTP:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/289957/pheu-thai-suffers-2-big-poll-defeats
@Dan #83
By debating with us, I assume you’d like us to agree with you and see it your way. Name calling and insults directed at the listener is perhaps the worst debate technique there is to achieve that goal.
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#85 Nick
Quickly… Cos I have to get on the road…. I don’t under estimate the growth in awareness across Thailand…. My impressions of attitudes are born of many chats with people across the country and they are exactly that…. impressions…. But they are informed impressions.
You are engaged in thorough systematic research and I find your reports fascinating.
On the last elections, PT won for a number of very good reasons….
A. People were fed up with the incompetence of the Democrat administration. Even in the Dem heartlands in the south around the rubber rich areas between Trang and Patthalung where I spent quite some time in the run up to the election people were dissatisfied with the rudderless ship that the government was, with rubber prices going down and the economy in dissatisfy. Many saw Abhisit as a good guy but also saw him as ineffectual and surrounded by the usual corrupt and menacing suspects… They won’t have voted PT, but they were not happy…. In swing areas I imagine the feeling was stronger. Thaksin still also has the aura of dynamic economic management from his days as PM when the world was booming. Whether that is justified or not I don’t know…..
B. During the election the Dems had a chance to really show and invigorated sense of ‘caring’ about the people they ask to vote for them…. Problem is they really don’t have one…. And people instead saw a disdainful collection of men and women with outmoded attitudes and an arrogant sense of entitlement…. People are wise to that now and they acted accordingly. The Dems have totally failed to clock changes and learn about how a 21st Century political party gathers and maintains support…. Their campaign was just about as bad as it could…. An own goal of stupendous incompetence and complacency….. This was far too big a landslide to be simply about Red shirts…. It took non committed swing voters in huge numbers.
C. The ‘Narak’ factor…. Thaksin has an amazing nack for short term political timing…. Putting in his own truly fresh and fragrant sister was the equivalent of fielding a panda bear…. Never under estimate the importance of ‘narak’ in Thailand….. She half convinces me she is so wholesome (‘na ka?’)….. And what makes it even more amazing is that at the time the Dems considered it an own goal…. This is populist politics at its most finely honed and skilled…. The panda won a landslide…..
Anyway…. Gotta run…. Keep up the good work big boy….
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“johninbkk”:
Oops, of course – you are right.
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In the long list of Dem Party reasons for losing the 2011 election (as they have every other single election in 20years) Dan forget to mention the most compelling one.
That they sent the army in to shoot unarmed civilians.
I guess that’s irrelevant to Dan as he sweats his way around Thailand.
Hold that thought…
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Nick
Interesting noting different reactions of PT in the recent by-election loss to that of the Dems when they lose a vote.
And you’re right, taking pretty photos of temples and tattoos is not the same as actually talking to the grassroots political movement that has taken shape in Thailand and is now morphing into something that is leaving Thaksin behind.
It is, as you’ve said, fascinating actually watching the wheels of history turning.
As for the Dems – in their present mode they are finished. Let’s hope they turn it around to become a proper opposition
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Thaksin is onlyy symbol of demcracy, and most Thai love him not because of his money, but what he have done for people. Despite so many charge to him from politic opposition,military, and some elite, he still can survive, and get more powerful and can defeat any enemy.
Red Shirt was born from those injustice placed to both Thaksin and his allies, people who support him. What Red Shirt want is just justice to Thaksin and to choose their future without any hidden power, and outside influential ,and from someone behind the scene!
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Not to barge in to meaningful commentary, but constant submittal of one-sided views expressed as fact don’t do a lot of good to accommodate differences of opinion or lead to meaningful constructive conclusions. For example, comment 90 is a clear opinion but expresses it all as fact. This is not logical nor defensible in and of itself. Some of it may be true, some not. We need to express opinions as such, and when stating so-called fact also need to back it up with a cited reference that can be supported by dependable, provable and as-non prejudicial as possible independent references not based on the same sources cited.
Let’s go through it here…
“Thaksin is onlyy symbol of demcracy, and most Thai love him not because of his money, but what he have done for people. Despite so many charge to him from politic opposition,military, and some elite, he still can survive, and get more powerful and can defeat any enemy.
Red Shirt was born from those injustice placed to both Thaksin and his allies, people who support him. What Red Shirt want is just justice to Thaksin and to choose their future without any hidden power, and outside influential ,and from someone behind the scene!”
1. It is arguable that MOST Thais might not love Thaksin. Where did the MOST come from?
2. The argument he is loved by people not because of his money but because of what he did for people is also a highly prejudicial conclusion. Many people may feel that Thaksin did a great deal for the Thai people, but what academic research is there to indicate why they feel this way, how many feel this way, and whether that is indeed accurate.
3. The argument the Red Shirts want justice for Thaksin (and presumably for themselves) and to choose their future without any hidden power is not going to happen, not in this life or any life anywhere. There is always massive power behind the scenes whether al la Thaksin or the Amart, etc., and that will not disappear. But the appeal of having national policies meet real needs is probably the core idea here.
Life is full of ulterior motives with even people we know well, or think we do, making decisions and taking actions that affect or do not affect each of us, and the world. Sit down at a table with people that call themselves your family or friends and start going over their individual motives for one thing or another.
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#86 Dan
“B. During the election the Dems had a chance to really show and invigorated sense of ‘caring’ about the people they ask to vote for them…. Problem is they really don’t have one…. ”
Here is what Abhisit said after the Democrats under Chuan had been badly beaten by Thaksin’s TRT in 2001:
“We didn’t lose because of poor campaigning. After three years in office, the government had stopped responding to the people. This is the main and most important reason.” (The Nation, January 9, 2001)
Maybe, the Democrats need some more time of adjustment, and, maybe, they won’t be able to reform themselves?
And, yes, Abhisit’s crackdown on the red shirt protestors was a rather idiosyncratic way of showing their sense of “caring.”
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#88 ‘pro democracy’ blah, blah, blah etc etc
“That they sent the army in to shoot unarmed civilians. I guess that’s irrelevant to Dan as he sweats his way around Thailand.”
Another nice bit of polemic says the anonymous man with more incarnations than Vishnu…… But actually whatever the ins and outs of the events of Rajaprasong…. The real concerns here are the mundane normalities of the sharply rising cost of living, fuel prices, job losses, economic uncertainty etc etc…. Those are the issues that will swing those not overly concerned with the Red agenda and those were the voters PT succeeded in convincing….. And it was those voters who turned out for PT in numbers. Whatever one thinks of either of the main parties, the Dems failed miserably to connect with voters and nor did they try and PT did the absolute opposite as did TRT and the PPP before them….. This was probably the Dems last chance to rally some credibility and it is not just the fact that they lost but that they were absolutely crushed that may well mean they are finished forever. They managed to hold central Bangkok, but interestingly the one ward that went to PT was Dusit…. Which is largely people by the military giving you some indication of the fact that huge numbers of serving soldiers in those barracks also voted PT….
That may not suit the polemic agenda of farang propagandists (by whom I do NOT mean the worthy Nick Nostitz or the worthy Andrew macgregor Marshall) living in London whose lives are spent spitting venom and vitriol on the internet largely under false names….. But it is a reality none the less…. Go check it out….. It might take more than a 3 week holiday though…..
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Half an hour ago I was reading and enjoying the photo essay presented on this page. Fifteen minutes ago I was getting stuck into the discussions in the comments. Now I’m watching another round of egos colliding in battle.
And just for the record, my dad’s bigger than your dad.
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Dan
So you don’t think killing unarmed protesters has any bearing on Abhisit’s inability to win votes?
Remember he had no mandate before he ordered the army to start shooting.
He is hated and with good reason.
All the other stuff you mention – inflation etc – is very important, of course. Can’t see anyone denying that here….
But, when a popularly elected government is bringing the bad news people will more likely suck it up when compared to a government, imposed by brutal force, doing the same.
The Dems had no legitimate democratic claim on power. The blood is on their hands.
(It would be great to see you make one single comment where you don’t engage in pathetic attempts at put-downs Dan. Just stick to the debate and calm the feck down, eh?).
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# 95 pro-democracy-bla-bla-sweaty-in-Thailand-bit-of-a-cyber-stalker
“The Dems had no legitimate democratic claim on power. The blood is on their hands. So you don’t think killing unarmed protesters has any bearing on Abhisit’s inability to win votes?”
That’s a pretty stupid and ill informed question bla bla.
“Remember he had no mandate before he ordered the army to start shooting.”
You just shot yourself in the foot. Even if he had a mandate to rule as Prime Minister he would never have had a mandate to ‘kill unarmed protesters’…. Can you not even be consistent according to your own world view?
“All the other stuff you mention – inflation etc – is very important, of course. Can’t see anyone denying that here….”
How gracious of you bla bla…. er… I beg your pardon… I meant ‘sweaty’.
“But, when a popularly elected government is bringing the bad news people will more likely suck it up when compared to a government, imposed by brutal force, doing the same.”
Or indeed Asterix the Gaul…. You do understand how parliamentary systems work don’t you sweaty bla bla?
“The Dems had no legitimate democratic claim on power. The blood is on their hands.”
These two statements are called a non sequitur I am afraid sweaty….. Also bear in mind the Red shirt leadership demanded elections. Abhisit granted them elections. Having got what they demanded, the Red leadership then refused the elections they had previously demanded. The ‘unarmed’ Red shirts then started killing people on Silom Road with live munitions…. Quite a talent for unarmed protesters it has to be said….. Then, when they were cleared (after having been granted the elections they had originally demanded and refused), the army went in with their usual incompetence as conscript armies are won’t to do. …..91 dead for what?…. An election that was demanded and granted or the election that was going to happen anyway and they were always likely to win?….. Strangely enough the whole skulking band of ‘brave’ propagandists in the Red shirt leadership who had spent the last few months inspiring their flock to rise up against the ‘amart’ fled just before the proverbial excrement hit the proverbial fan and they emerged unscathed to live another day and drink good wine in expensive restaurants in Thonglor or mooch around Cambodia whining idiocies about Chairman Mao, having deserted the faithful they had inspired to die in the streets…. Courageous men and women all.
“(It would be great to see you make one single comment where you don’t engage in pathetic attempts at put-downs Dan. Just stick to the debate and calm the feck down, eh?). ”
Er…..since when was the clearing of Rajaprasong the debate on this thread? It would be good if you abrogated for eternity the life of a stalker and used your real name when you spout meaningless vitriol.
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Thanks for all of these comments:
Now let’s get this back on to the topic of the Red Shirt rally in Cambodia. Nothing else is going to be approved on this thread of comments from here on out. Thanks for your understanding.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
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Another point to raise from Thaksin’s Cambodia (and Laos) sojourn(s) is the weight he still carries regionally. It’s extraordinary to see a country cock a snook at a more powerful neighbour in this way – or at least give the middle finger to the the more shadowy elements in Thailand’s dual state. Hun Sen likely has bitter memories of the succour the Thai military/elites gave to the KR in the 80s and 90s.
While some would argue that Hun Sen is hardly a role model figure for democracy and social justice, Thaksin’s acceptance by all Thailand’s ASEAN partners increasingly isolates those who stand against him in Bangkok. Not only has Thaksin proven his electoral mandate in Thailand he also seems to be able to call on some powerful friends in the region with most of them obviously considering the Ratchadaphisek case as pure politics.
But I’m not sure Thaksin’s weight carries much beyond that and it is interesting to compare that to his visit to the UK which is happening right now.
I know that there were some reasonably well-established plans for him to hold a party here and conduct some press yet both were cancelled at the last moment.
We do know he is here to watch the Man Utd v Man City (he still owns a VIP box and shares at city) game tonight and to conduct some business meetings.
I did speak to a couple of his UK supporters and they expressed disappointment and annoyance that he didn’t make himself available to meet them.
For my part I was hoping to grab a quick interview with him for my blog. Unfortunately it didn’t happen. (Contrary to popular rumour/myth/folklore I’ve never met him, spoke to him or taken money from him For the record I’ve spent more time with Dem Party people than PT….. )
My view is that Thaksin was originally going to stage some kind of “event” here but I wouldn’t be surprised that the UK authorities attached conditions to his visa – “no press, no events, yes you can come and do business here”.
Be interesting to see in the future if Thaksin makes London more of a base for his activities while he remains outside of Thailand.
For those prone to conspiracy theory there was a further twist to Thaksin’s visit.
Former Dem Finance Minister Korn was also in London this weekend. I’ve met/interviewed Korn a couple of times and he previously told me that Thaksin had tried to recruit him back in the day. I took from his tone that it was a close run thing – that was just my reading of his body language etc.” I’m still curious as to why Korn is so supportive of Abhisit. A politician – even a colleague – in Korn’s position would’ve stabbed his boss in the front/back months ago. But who’d want to be the Dem Party leader now?
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Just a quick note about the “$500,000″ spent by Thaksin: This is highly inaccurate. Hun Sen publicly announced his financial support for this event. All security, the location, and local transport were provided and covered by the Cambodian Government. in all Thaksin and the red shirts had very little expenses while in Cambodia.
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“Asia Journo”:
Public announcements are…, well, public announcements. I do not build my reporting on public announcements without proper fact checking.
The same amount, around $ 500 000, was confirmed to me independently by two high ranked sources in Thaksin’s camp, who naturally will have to stay anonymous.
And before i am misunderstood – i do not see any issue with large amounts of money spent on rallies. Rallies need funding, and that has to come somewhere from. Money spent says nothing whatsoever on the determination and political conviction of the attendants or organizers, unless attendants are simply hired. If that would have been the case in this Siam Reap rally, the images would be quite different.
As an example for the sort of images one gets when rally attendants are hired, look at this article please:
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/07/30/bhum-jai-thai-and-the-business-of-protests-slightly-gone-wrong/
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Nick
Not disputing your source for the $500k claim or that it is inaccurate but surely Thaksin aides have a self-interest in saying how much money is spent? The more Thaksin is claimed to have spent the better his generosity and image, right?
Fact-checking would’ve meant seeing at least some concrete paperwork not taking the word of a Thaksin aide…
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Oh Nick, never know when to stop… 2 ‘high ranked sources’ from the camp that has the interest… that is NOT fact checking by any serious journalist.
Come on, you’re better than this… Although you’re 100% pro-red, and have always had a way to skew some facts just to ‘appear’ right, Everyone knows very well that the reds ‘demonstrators’ are just as paid as any other. in fact, it’s often the same actors with different shirts (as a Bangkok photographer has showed in the past).
You, yourself wrote in your piece that you got a business card from Hun Sen’s bodyguards chief. So, he took some time off work to volunteer with Thaksin?
Ignoring Hun Sen’s hand in all this, and the business aspect of Thaksin’s rally in Siem Reap, is simply bad journalism. In his short speech on stage he even had time to send a business message to China! Di you forget about that part, or conveniently chose to ignore it?
Your love for the underdog can’t overshadow proper journalism and real research and fact checking.
FYI: The Cambodian government, OFFICIALLY, announced over 1m$ just in ‘lost revenue’ over this rally.
Asking the right questions is the key to good journalism, and you seem to have completely ignored all of them. Here are a few for next time:
- Why Cambodia? Do you support Hun Sen’s Murderous regime?
- How is Hun Sen involved?
- How much did this rally cot, and who paid the bill?
- How much did you get from the Cambodian government to organize your rally in Siem Reap?
-Why did you agree to be Hun Sen’s financial adviser 2 years ago?
- When will you order your sister to let you back in the country?
- How much did you gain from the whole red-shirt fiasco?
- Will you give some money back to Thailand? Will your Gardner, son, ex wife return money and assets they have stolen??
- Why have you not called to prosecute the criminal ‘red shirts’ who were killing people and burnt down central world? Shouldn’t you clean your backyard before demanding others to?
- Why do you think you shouldn’t be in jail? If only for all the white collar crimes you’ve committed?
- Do you think a man who runs away from the law should be a leader? is that the kind of role models you are breeding in the ‘red shirts’?
etc… etc… etc…
And one more thing, you spent a while sitting in front of Thaksin’s son, and all you could do (self admittedly) is kiss his arse? ‘It’s your private life, none of my business’? not a single question? Temasek fiasco? Mom fiasco? Pithongtae?
Last, lest we forget what the red shirts were chanting at the end… “Thakisn Hun sen! Thaksin Hun Sen!…”
Sicerely yours,
(As Hun Sen said about Thaksin: )Your “Eternal Friend”.
Some articles:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2012/04/thaksin-cambodia
http://khamerlogue.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/cambodia-deploys-huge-security-for-thaksin-rally-who-pays-for/
P.s- #95: ‘sweaty’: “Unarmed protesters”? that’s just hilarious!
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“Andrew Spooner”:
I have never said “Thaksin’s aides”, i stated “high ranked members in Thaksin’s camp”. There is a difference, and no, i will not be any more specific.
Would you mind not to re-interpret what i have said, and not build a strawmen based on some strange assumption on what may, or may not be in Thaksin’s interest?
“Asia Journo”:
Again, very nice to lounge attacks from the cover of anonymity. Have at least the guts to name yourself, if indeed you are a “journo”, which i very much doubt, looking at the catalog of questions you fired in your post, half of them leading questions, the remainder being completely irrelevant to the event in Siam Reap (no – it was not my intention to write a whole novel on Thaksin’s or his son’s alleged misdeeds of the past years), or full of assumptions based more on your dislike than any evidence.
And secondly, my dear “colleague”, when you are lucky enough to get a few minutes interview time with Thaksin, than you just have these ten minutes. That means three questions tops, and not firing off a dozen questions that may take an hour to answer.
For what i am working on – i am most interested in the current issue of amnesty and reconciliation, which is the first time in the history of the past 6 years of conflict that a potential serious conflict between the Red Shirts and Pueah Thai party/Thaksin can develop.
And no, i do not see that my profession allows me to take liberties beyond anything considered good manners. I requested an interview with Thaksin, not with his son, and that means i will not jump the kid, bombard him with hostile questions and make an arse out of myself. I leave that sort of thing to others.
Also your statement of “everybody knows” disqualifies you from any sort of responsible journalism as well. I am also rather mystified what “a Bangkok photographer has showed in the past”.
Who?
What has this photographer shown?
When?
Why on earth should i include another pseudo analyses on Hun Sen, or write about business? There are more than a few journalists who know far more about Cambodia or business than me, who can do that. I limit myself to the Red Shirts here. This story is about “Red Shirts meet Thaksin”.
If you want a story on Hun Sen, or on Thaksin’s business interests, then write it yourself.
And no, i am completely rejecting the notion that i would be “100% pro-red”. If you read my work there are more than a few instances where the facts i presented strongly disagreed with Red Shirt propaganda, such as claims of non-violence – i have been the first photographer who photographed a Red Shirt protester with a gun back in 2008, or regarding the infamous “Abhisit tape” in 2009, or regarding the existence of the infamous MIB.
Where do i “always had a way to skew some facts just to ‘appear’ right”. Any proof or evidence?
Why then, dear “colleague”, did you not take the opportunity and travel to Cambodia, get an interview with Thaksin and fire your own questions (and possible give us all a laugh by being dragged out of the room for having exceeded the given time limit)? Or are you, if indeed you are a journalist, just another of these Bangkok (or Chiangmai) barstool reporters full of themselves and as full of opinions and very little presence in the field?
I guess it is well enough that you decided to hide your real identity…
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Nick
Ok – Whether you call them Thaksin’s aides or “high ranked members in Thaksin’s camp” is just semantics.
“Fact-checking” is not taking their word for it but asking to see a paper trail.
You didn’t and so that particular fact has not been checked.
Personally I don’t care if Thaksin spent $500K or $5K or $5. But your process of fact-checking in this instance seems a bit wooly.
That’s not a personal insult or an attempt to undermine your work, so please don’t take it that way.
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@Asia Journo 99 – Can you link us to a source for your information?
@Asia Journo 102 – “FYI: The Cambodian government, OFFICIALLY, announced over 1m$ just in ‘lost revenue’ over this rally.”
Free entry fees to Angkor Wat were given to the 30k rally participants. A 3 day pass is normally $40/person, working out to 1.2m$. But to argue 30k would have even gone to Angkor Wat on their own without the rally has no factual basis. More likely, 30k people spending money in Siam Reap was a financial boon for Cambodia.
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#102 Asia Journo
“- Why Cambodia? Do you support Hun Sen’s Murderous regime?
” etc etc etc etc
This list of questions are not just ‘leading’…. But also daft I am afraid…
Hun Sen’s leverage on internal Thai politics, which brings him huge kudos in Cambodia, is rather more complex than the answers these questions would ever elicit from Thaksin …… Nor, if you wish to be fair, was Nick ever there to cover this aspect of events…. Nor did he claim too be…. It is unfair criticism…..
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“Andrew Spooner”:
Paper trail – are you kidding me?
Wooly fact checking?
This is a rather wooly part of the world, not the EU or the US, and on occasion you will have to rely on trusted sources as there are in many areas huge problems with transparency.
I have also, if you read the article, stated “according to my source…”.
As this same amount was independently mentioned by another high ranked source as well, i am confident enough that i can state this in my article.
Like it or not, there are areas in journalism in which you have to depend on sources you have built over years of hard work. This is not hard science.
I do not see what the fuzz is about, other than one anonymous “journo” with a grudge used this as a red herring to start a round about attack against me.
Boring, boring, boring…
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To Dan #106
I bet you don’t know just like the rest of Thai people accepted their country changing its name from Siam to Thai by a war crime Evil loser Phibun Songkram who committed war crime against humanity siding with Japan loser in WWII stealing land and temples of Cambodia. Thai people don’t even know their Thai speaking language was stolen from Tai people of Yunnan.
Hun Sen at least allowed a murder trial for the KR in Cambodia but none of Thai leader never allowed any war crime trial for Phibun Songram in Thailand and plus all Thai people made a war crime Evil Phibun Songram as a great Thai Hero while millions of innocent people in SEA and allies dying without justice.
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Thanks to “Arschloch” and “Asia Journo” for this effort:
The similarity in IP addresses is striking. New Mandala actively discourages the use of multiple, anonymous monikers.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
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Nick
Yep, very aware of complete lack of paper trail on anything as I’ve tried to look for it several times myself.
This makes independently verifying any kind of “facts” almost impossible as everything is reduced to ephemeral rumour and hearsay or “what my source told me”.
And then when actual paper documents or hard evidence is produced no-one believes that either.
I’m also very aware that things get exaggerated and overstated, particularly if it makes someone look important.
For me, what Thaksin spent is not entirely irrelevant but there are other more interesting aspects to this rally. As you wrote here political campaigns/rallies cost a lot of money everywhere.
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Thanks Nich,
Neither “Arschloch” or the “Asia Journo” in 107 are me. You can check the IPs, (unless they are my neighbors? You do know that most of us journos work in the same building, right?)
In any case, nothing wrong about being pro red, yellow, blue, pink… every person has a political opinion, even journalists. Just try not to let it influence your journalistic professionalism too much.
Just a quick answer about payments to demonstrators, to nick, as we seem to disagree on something that is truly common knowledge in Thailand.
Fact: I personally saw lines of people in the Rajprasong camps every day getting paid to be there, depending on “ranking”. Any journalist that was there knows that.
Fact: I also filmed guys that were guarding the access ramps at the airport in yellow (PAD) that were in red at Rajprasong guarding the barricades.
About the Hun Sen involvement? I agree with the ‘other Asia Journo’ about the brothel analogy… and the statement that follows.
You can’t just ignore such important ‘details’ because they don’t fit into your agenda.
Nick, you’re a nice guy, I have nothing personal against you, so please don’t attack my persona either. Be professional.
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Thanks “Asia Journo”,
You’re right — those two aren’t from your (now confirmed) IP. Thanks for clarifying and sorry for any confusion. This is yet another illustration of why anonymity online is a double-edged sword. Those other two comments have been deleted.
My general suggestion to New Mandala commentators is to use your real name wherever possible, and in this case I see no reason why any of you would want to hide. If you are writing about more sensitive issues (say, lese majeste in Thailand, human rights abuses in Burma, political killings in Cambodia, to pick just a few examples) then feel free to rock a fake name. But otherwise I feel it is a distraction and does nobody any credit.
Moreover, Nick Nostitz works in public, and shares his output under his own name. He takes responsibility for what he writes and produces. And he is a fair and very generous contributor to public debate. He is even prepared to discuss his work with anonymous critics, as he done countless times over the years here on New Mandala. But, given the yard hards he puts in and the risks he takes, I think it best if those who want to debate him show their faces. It is, at the very least, a sign of respect and collegiality.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
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#110 Chivan
“Hun Sen at least allowed a murder trial for the KR in Cambodia”
There is a lot I could say about this having covered Cambodia for nearly two decades…. But I think we would be veering rather off topic and the mods have, quite rightly, asked us to keep the thread on track… I think we should get back to the question of Nick’s reportage on the meeting between massed red shirts and Thaksin Shinawatra….
Something that is getting lost in all this is the pictures…. They are excellent. Well done Nick.
A note on ‘sympathies’…. Nick is clear about where his sympathies lie. I don’t have a problem with that since it is part of the process of transparency. As stated before, that does not impinge on his gathering of facts. I find the personal attacks on him by anonymous contributors to be distasteful…. This is the same thread on which I got ‘outed’ by a sock puppet using a phony name for actually using my real name!…. Alice just walked in through the looking glass ladies and gents…… Nick is not claiming to be infalible. Nobody is… But he is quite rightly defending his integrity in his fact gathering…. He is meticulous.
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I do want to echo mails 112 and 113 (as well as my own what seems a long time ago when I first saw his report) in complimenting Nick for the pictures and his account of the trip and encounters. They are, amongst other things, informative and provocative.
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Asia Journo (c102):
“FYI: The Cambodian government, OFFICIALLY, announced over 1m$ just in ‘lost revenue’ over this rally.”
This being announced so “OFFICIALLY” (as you put it), I’d expect that you’ll have no problem in pointing out the confirmed source for this alleged statement. Of course, it will have to be rather more substantial – and substantiated – than the hypothetical arithmetic that has been touted elsewhere…..
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To the real “Asia Journo”:
I will not attack anyone with reasonable criticism, or who has not initiated a personal attack against me.
Constructive and reasonable criticism makes my work better.
No, we do not disagree on the fact that to some extend protesters received money in the Rajaprasong protests. That still does not mean anything at all, especially not about political convictions of these protesters. How on earth could otherwise these people finance to attend such protests?
Not just Thaksin and other high powered financiers of the Red Shirts provided budgets, but also common protesters in both rural and urban groups have donated funds and food for their fellow protesters. I have numerous images of common Red Shirts making such donations. In this aspect the quantities do not matter much, what matters is that they donated. For a villager, as an example, 100 Baht donated is far more money that 1 million baht donated by a billionaire – if you understand what i am trying to say here.
For example – many of the protesters on motorcycle got about 1000 baht for participating in the convoys around Bangkok. Part of that was for petrol, and for loss of income. What makes this different from “hired” protesters though is that hired protesters leave as soon as their paid for duty is finished, while most of these motorcycle drivers spent hours after these convoys returned to the rally sites listening to the speeches on the stage. The different internal intelligence agencies have researched these issues very well, and i have extensively discussed this subject matter with my sources in those agencies.
Guards received money, of course, depending on duty. And it also is a well known fact that on all levels a certain amount of internal corruption resulted in many guards receiving much less than what was budgeted for them. Again – it says little about political convictions. The vast majority of guards i know (and i know many) are strong believers in their cause. But yes, many are ‘naclaeng’, tough guys, fighters, and dangerous people. That is the nature of where they come from. And exactly the circumstances that made them what they are is a major part of what they protest against. This is a far to complex issue though to talk about in a brief commentary. I have lived most of my 20 years in Thailand in such neighborhoods and areas from which these sectors of society come from. That is one of the reasons why i feel very comfortable with especially the guards – of both sides: Yellow and Red.
And yes, there was a certain shift from Yellow to Red. There were some that went from Yellow to Red for political reasons, especially after the 2009 crackdown, others because their ‘nai’ shifted allegiance. At the end of the 2010 protests, when things began to collapse, many new guards came, which were completely unknown to the old guards who were part of the movement since the beginning. Quite a few of them were not politically motivated. This is well known under Red Shirts, and especially also under the Guards. And additionally – each side has spies in the other’s camps.
Again – people receiving money and hired protesters are different matters. One has to look first into the details (some of which i described here), and secondly in the motivations and convictions of protesters – for this you need to have in depth conversations with these protesters, if possible in their language without being filtered by translators, both during protests and in their home districts (which over the past years i have done excessively). You also have to consider the changing landscape of political awareness under the sectors of society that make up the majority of protesters, and this has advanced tremendously, especially after the key-trauma of the red shirts – the 2010 crackdown.
Relating to the Cambodia event: a very high percentage of the attending Red Shirts came from economically more affluent sectors of society, many went with their own cars, or booked tours for which they had to pay for. Only few came through the old canvasser networks.
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Nich, Thanks for bringing your luciferous insight into the matter.
I believe that the agreeable point that my now defunct alter ego tried to make in his/ her analogy to a brothel’s wallpaper, is that to write a whole piece and interview about Thaksin’s event in Cambodia without ever bothering to ask the real questions is not much more than an adoxography.
As I am not an aeolist, I do have insight into the matter at hand, I do believe that this piece doesn’t bring much more to the table than ill disguised autohagiography.
Nick’s cacoethes of standing up for a political ideas, brushing aside any type of criticism is simply a charientism to journalism.
I hope my witzelsucht is received in the manner it was intended.
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@Asia Journo 111
“Fact: I personally saw lines of people in the Rajprasong camps every day getting paid to be there, depending on “ranking”. Any journalist that was there knows that.
Fact: I also filmed guys that were guarding the access ramps at the airport in yellow (PAD) that were in red at Rajprasong guarding the barricades.”
Forgive me for completely doubting you, but these two claims are too unreal to be believable. You said you filmed them, and saw it every day, right? Can you post your evidence?
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I also think Nick’s report on the Cambodian rally was very good and have already said so. I also think much of the discussion has wandered off what Nick is really interested in which is the so-called reconciliation, more accurately called full amnesty.
Like, Nick, I think this could be one of the most important issues coming up in the next year or so as the constitution drafting committee goes to work and hopefully a referendum on a new constitution or least amendments happens next year.
This will be a true test of how well the UDD leadership that is part of the PTP can turn off or redirect the hatred they been inciting over the last couple of years. It will be very interesting to see what happens to the red villages and other UDD activities as the provincial godfathers withdraw their overt or tacit support that allowed the UDD to flourish in within their well defined geographical areas of influence and it becomes obvious that Jatuporn and Nattawut have always been hack politicians.
I think Nick sees this upcoming train wreck in the distance and is very worried. He has always been on the side of the underprivileged in Thailand and they could easily be the big losers in this.
Sanoh actually be the big winner in this as he has kept the UDD from gaining any big foothold within his area and he could come out the upcoming upheaval with increased influence as his MP’s candidates will always win. Newin and Banharn will also come out well for the same reasons.
If there is a civil war in the Northeast, it is not going to be between the rural peasants and the Bangkok eleite/amart. It is going to be between the betrayed rural clients their patrons that did it to them.
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#111 Asian Journo
“I also filmed guys that were guarding the access ramps at the airport in yellow (PAD) that were in red at Rajprasong guarding the barricades.”
I spoke to a couple of shan guys in Mae Hong Son who had taken ‘guard’ work from both groups. I also spoke to villagers from outside of the Red Heartlands who had been approached for the ‘paid holiday’ to Bangkok. They were recruiting as far south as Trang. I am not sure that the fact that money was being passed around in quantity (as it was with the yellows) negates the conviction of the vast majority of the protesters though.
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Financial support to attend the rallies was widely (and understandably) confused for payments to attend the rally.
Personally, I spent hours secretly watching many of the entrance gaits to the protests. Never once did I see any payment or any list of names checked. I also never once saw a guard check anyone’s belongings, or even give a threatening look. I saw uniformed police casually walk in and out. If anyone doubts the convictions of the UDD guards, I have plenty of video I can forward you – paid or not they believed in the cause.
As for yellows joining the reds, as I understand it, Seh Daeng was once a PAD supporter (mid level leader?).
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“Nick Nostitz” “personal attack”:
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2010/02/18/what-you-see-on-new-mandala/
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2010/11/05/nick-nostitz-on-the-pad%E2%80%99s-third-coming/
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2012/01/16/review-of-a-life%E2%80%99s-work-tlcnmrev-xxxi/
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2012/04/10/double-double-toil-and-trouble/
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2012/04/16/when-thaksin-comes-home/
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2012/04/23/songkran-in-cambodia-red-shirts-meet-thaksin/
The phrase is over-used on here as it is but Nick seems to be leading a sudden uptick the last couple of weeks. Every rebuttal or contrary view or counter argument or expression of doubt is a ‘personal attack’ … yeah.
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I recommend, for AsianJourno readers, this: Luciferous Logolepsy
Dragging obscure words into the light of day (http://www.kokogiak.com/logolepsy/)
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“John Smith”:
Thanks, and yes, i am considerably worried, personally, and on several levels.
For my work, by the way, developments of political consciousness in Thai society as represented in the Red/Yellow conflict are of utmost importance.
Thaksin’s business connections with Cambodia, and Cambodia’s self-interest as regarding to its involvement in this conflict are for me of secondary interest. I have my focus, had it since years, and stick with it. Business and elite machinations are neither my main focus, nor am i particularly good in writing on these subjects, therefore i won’t write about them. I do street politics, and how street politics relate to the conflict as i came to believe over these past years that street politics and grassroots developments of political awareness are the main driving force in this conflict.
If my critics want to research these factors, why don’t they do that then? If their articles are good enough, i will then use their work, properly attributed, as i always do with related subjects in my books in the end notes.
“Dan”:
I would suggest to be very careful with these statements. I have come across many of those as well, but the majority of them turned out to be urban legends when i dug a bit deeper.
While some may be accurate, one has to consider the complex intricacies of Thailand’s patronage networks, which of course the Red Shirts as part of, and reflection of Thai society, are also influenced by.
Nevertheless – the situation is extremely fluid, which is in fact result of the ongoing conflict, and Thai society is in an ongoing process of transformation.
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“Personally, I spent hours secretly watching many of the entrance gaits to the protests. Never once did I see any payment or any list of names checked. I also never once saw a guard check anyone’s belongings, or even give a threatening look. ”
Sorry, I must’ve been in Disneyland. As there’s no way we were at the same place.
“Financial support to attend the rallies was widely (and understandably) confused for payments to attend the rally.”
Where else in the world is it Ok to pay people to attend a political rally? And get a higher ‘salary’ the more you’re active? Get penalized if you miss the daily roll call? Sorry, no confusion here. The reds were just as orchestrated and paid as the yellows, if not more. (I never saw a yellow roll call or money distributed at Suvarnhabumi, but I may have missed it)
P.s- funny that you should mention a ‘list of names’… I certainly didn’t.
Is johninbkk on Flicker, you?
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Ralph
Good find!
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“street politics and grassroots developments of political awareness are the main driving force in this conflict”
So you’re saying that the main driving force in this conflict are the masses or even grassroots leaders?
Really? That from a ‘specialist’?
Oh oh, Did anyone else drink from the Koolaid?
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@Asia Journo 125
I think you mis-understood (understandably). Please reread Nick Nostitz #116, and johninbkk #121. We are NOT saying people are paid to participate. We are saying some were given financial support to participate because they supported the cause, but their financial situation otherwise prevents actual participation.
ps – If you have photographic/video evidence to counter what I said in #121, please post it. I’m interested. I assume you want us to agree with you, but sarcasm and personal attacks are very poor techniques to achieve that goal.
“Is johninbkk on Flicker, you?”
No, that is not me. I only use johninbkk for posting here, on BangkokPost.com, and on rare occasion Prachathai. Any other online profiles with the same name are unrelated to me. (serious)
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“Asia Journo”:
“Sorry, I must’ve been in Disneyland. As there’s no way we were at the same place.”
Quite possibly you still are in Disneyland. Definitely you are not in the same Thailand i live in.
Have you, other than filming one or the other news event, ever researched both Red Shirts and Yellow in any depth, such as attending seminars of the different groups, village level rallies, visited grass roots organizations, listened in at the level of political debate, and taken the time to discuss these issues directly with people, in Thai?
“Where else in the world is it Ok to pay people to attend a political rally?” is nothing but the same old and typical non sequitur line of argumentation neglecting not just all existing research, but also the simple fact that countless Red Shirts have spend vast sums into the budgets themselves. This occurred on all levels, in which Red Shirts that stayed home have supported fellow villagers that attended the rallies.
Funny though that you have apparently never filmed at donation boxes at Red Shirt rallies, small or big, or filmed fundraisers, such as Chinese table dinners, in which people paid for their seats to raise funds. Not to speak of the countless seminars and other activities that are taking place every day on all levels of society.
But to answer your question – yes, almost all resistance armies in the world do pay their fighters, and have always done so, and collect funds from both rich and less rich supporters. In the perception of the Red Shirts, since 2006 they are in a warlike scenario against what they define as the “Amaart”. At times that war is cold, and at other times it is hot – as it was in 2010 since April 10. To fight this conflict they need funds, as also their opponents have vast amounts of funds available as well.
If you believe that the past 6 years have all been orchestrated, than you are truly living in Disneyland, and you have completely missed one of the most exiting social developments in this part of the world.
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Nick #116
Paid protestors. The only experience I have with this is in late April 2010, when numbers at the rally site were dwindling, the UDD made a flying pass through my wife’s district offering 2,000 baht with a promise of food provided, but you had to hand over your ID card. As Sanoh, at that time, was not supporting the UDD or the rally, they were politely asked to leave with thier one recruit and never returned.
From your report, apparently Sanoh has had a change of heart about the UDD. What a surprise.
Nick #124
You have unsurprisingly not addressed a single issue I raised about the coming divide between the PTP and the UDD.
I do not see this as a Red/Yellow conflict. In simplistic terms I see this more as two cynical populist movements used to drum up support using a decoy platform as cover for a power grabbing agenda. The yellow movement is way past its prime and the bulk of its previous supporters have gone back to their lives and are no longer are as passionate about their politics and at this point tend to be rather disillusioned about the whole thing. There are of course the small nubmers of radicals that Nick loves to bring up when things get to uncomfortable about the UDD.
My question is are the grassroots’ UDD going to go the same way, or are because the propaganda used was raised to level not seen in the prime PAD days will there be problems when the divide occurs?
What are they going to do when Jatuporn tells them to go home and accept what happens?
Is Arisman and the other true radicals, who arenot a hack client politician, but publicity seeking egotist with a bent toward violence, going to go along? Didn’t they gave Arismans’s wife a party list MP seat, is that the payoff? Are the other faction leaders susceptible to this sort of thing?
The problem as I see it is the UDD is a different demographic than the PAD. Unfortunately the UDD followers tend to be people that are easily led by demagoguery and eloquent oratory, even when it is espousing violence. Keep in mind that many of these people have parents or grandparents that were hard core Village Scouts and were just fine with what happened in 1976. The parent and grandfathers of some the PAD was more likely to have been the victims.
We shall see what happens. I look forward to Nick’s continued ground level reporting.
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@John Smith #130
“Paid protestors. The only experience I have with this is in late April 2010, when numbers at the rally site were dwindling, the UDD made a flying pass through my wife’s district offering 2,000 baht with a promise of food provided, but you had to hand over your ID card.”
There is a widely disseminated youtube video (can’t find it at the moment) showing money being handed out to red shirts. Those who received the money had their ID card information recorded. It was money being offered to drivers willing to ferry protesters to Bangkok, although the anti-TS camp interpreted the same video very differently. A friend of mine told me she was offered money to ferry protesters, too, but never to attend (I can’t remember the amount offered).
“Unfortunately the UDD followers tend to be people that are easily led by demagoguery and eloquent oratory, even when it is espousing violence. ”
Did you just say Thaksin and Yingluck . . . are better orators than Abhisit?!
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#124 Nick ” but the majority of them turned out to be urban legends when i dug a bit deeper.”
The Shan guys weren’t urban legends. They were sat right in front of me and they had gone to Bangkok because the pay was good. 1000 baht a day from the PAD. The UDD paid less I think. Nor did villagers who related being approached have any real reason to lie to me. It was they who volunteered the information when they were asking me how things had been in Bangkok.
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“John Smith”:
I did not address the issue of a potential conflict between Red Shirts and Pueah Thai as my whole story was pointing at this issue anyhow.
As to you assessment of “cynical populist movements”, etc, i do not agree. The PAD indeed is way past its prime.
The Red Shirts (of which the UDD is just its largest mass organization) is still rising, in organizational, structural and ideological terms. While there naturally is a fair amount of propaganda and indoctrination, there is also much political discourse taking place – on all levels. Much of this discourse, due to the sensitive nature, is not publishable.
No – i do not see the Red Shirts going the same way as the PAD went, mostly because of its very active internal discussion, and constant developments of said discussion.
What i see is, if Pueah Thai Puyai do not find a for the Red Shirts acceptable compromise with the “reconciliation” plans, that many sectors of the Red Shirts will separate from this party, and quite possibly radicalize themselves even more. But this is pure speculation.
And here some more speculation – I personally think that a reason for Thaksin’s evasiveness in answering my question on amnesty could be that, after having been given strong signals by Red Shirts, he may have to rethink his strategy. But again, just speculation, and i guess we will see what the future brings.
My personal guess regarding the so-called “reconciliation” is that it will simply not work. I have asked many Red Shirts of all levels, and not one single person had anything but disdain when i mentioned the term “prong dong”. Right now i am watching the new Democrat Party mouthpiece – Blue Sky TV – and the hate speech there is so strong, even sprinkled with occasional quite sordid insults – that this whole notion seems to me nothing but a pipe dream.
Most “true” hardcore leaders and organizers are not well know by the public, neither do they care to be. Much has happened as well when our news hounds lost interest in the whole thing, when the civil war did not break out in the immediate aftermath of the 2010 crackdown. Grassroots organizations became far more independent of politicians, their canvassers and the UDD leadership in the past two years.
Yes, i even know one old Red Shirt guard who was a member of the Kratingdaeng, and involved in the Oct. 6, 1976 mess. But Thailand then, and Thailand today are very different countries. The term “da sawaang”, which came up in the aftermath of the 2010 crackdown is particularly descriptive in this regard of changing perceptions under Red Shirt protesters towards not just the monarchy, but also their entire identity as Thais.
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To Dan #112
The topic tags say Cambodia, Thailand, Thaksin so what I say about Thailand is not off topic.
Let me tell you, no other country in the world know Thailand better than Cambodia.
It’s called amazing Thailand because millions of Thai people accepted their country changing its name from Siam to Thai by a war crime dictator loser Phibun Songkram who sided with Japan losing WWII. Cambodia had admiration for Japan for recognizing its defeat, but Cambodia had no admiration for Thailand for refusing to accept its defeat and Cambodia knew this kind of Thai dictator attitude many times in the past and in present.
People of Italy hung Benito Mussolini to death for siding with Hitler but people of Thailand make Phibun Songram as Prime Minister for siding with Japan.
For Thai people, the Australians speak EngAlish not English because Thai speak THai not Tai.
Thai dictators sent many ambassadors back home because those countries voted Preah Vihear Temple a favour of Cambodia and Thai dictators refused to accept the ICJ verdict that the UN had to suspend Thailand as its member forcing Thailand to accept the ICJ verdict in 1962.
When Cambodia had peace with Thaksin, Cambodia never wanted to look back in the past about Thailand until Abhisit came to power and screwed up all the good relation between Cambodia and Thailand that Cambodia had no choice but to speak up the truth about Thailand. Hun Sen allowed the red shirts to meet Thaksin in Cambodia because Hun Sen wanted to show the world that what Thailand and Cambodia should do living in peace together.
The only people in the world do not want Thailand living in peace with Cambodia is the yellow PAD who owned ASTV never stop yelling and insulting Hun Sen and people of Cambodia everyday on TV but those yellow PAD have no shame at all yelling and insulting Hun Sen and people of Cambodia but using Cambodia numerals to write on Thai currency and copied Cambodia Angkor Wat for Thai royal palace in Bangkok.
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> “People of Italy hung Benito Mussolini to death”
He was shot.
> “Cambodia never wanted to look back in the past about Thailand until Abhisit came to power and screwed up all the good relation between Cambodia and Thailand”
You’re overlooking the rioting and burning of the Thai Embassy and the $50m damage done to Thai businesses in Phnom Penh … of course.
> “using Cambodia numerals to write on Thai currency”
Oooh the indignity of it!
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#135 Chivan “When Cambodia had peace with Thaksin, Cambodia never wanted to look back in the past”
The relationship and historical antagonism between the Khmer and the Thai peoples is rather more complex than you suggest and goes back centuries involving an ebb and flow of empire…. Both Cambodian and Thai politicians play the nationalist card as and when it suits them. The truth is that both nations have a largely shared heritage. The divisive curse of rabid nationalism is also a shared affliction. At the present time I don’t think the hate-mongering of PAD extremists has gained very much traction amongst the majority of Thai people although it occasionally serves as a useful vehicle for Hun Sen to send Khmer people into a frenzy for a day or two.
Its up to the mods if they want to let this one run, but it has little to do with the subject of Nick’s report.
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And Chivan, presumably you have read this piece on the subject of recent episodes of nationalism. Good bit of oped.
“The plague of fanaticism”
http://m.bangkokpost.com/topstories/220087
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@Jon Wright #135
Google search Mussolini hung and click on images, you will see the pictures of Mussolini hanging in Italy.
Or you can watch YouTube video here how
Mussolini was hanged.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9AAnXo0F5c
Mussolini was hanged before shooting and his body was destroyed by Italians.
As to the Thai Embassy burning, it was created by Thailand itself. You did not hear anyone from the world complaining about Cambodia except Thailand itself.
Thailand used the Thai famous actress claiming Angkor Wat that fly on Cambodia flag, a symbol of Khmer nation belonging to Thailand. When famous people talked, people believed, especially Thai people. Cambodia’s market was burned by the Thai armies at Preah Vihear Temple costing over one million and Preah Vihear temple itself was very damaged by the Thai tanks!!!!
Khmer people love their temples and they do anything to protect their temples. Khmer people already killed the Siamese armies when the Siamese King Mongkut ordered his Siamese armies to steal Angkor Wat stones piece by piece and bring to Bangkok, but Khmer people came out and killed all the Siamese armies.
Khmer King AngChan named a Cambodia province Siem Reap where Khmer crushed Siamese like bugs under Khmer feet due to their stubborn thief never give up of stealing Khmer temples. Until today, they still claimed Khmer Preah Vihear temple and its surrounding land belonging to them. Thailand has been is ruling by the armies and the Thai PM must listen to the Thai armies. There is no way that Cambodia can live in peace with Thailand.
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@Dan #137
You liked the Bangkok Post?
Watch this video how the Bangkok Post became unprofessional.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piAfQsJKdIs
.
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Phala:
Mussolini’s body was hung up with a meat hook 24 hours after he was shot dead.
Regarding the words of the Thai actress that prompted Cambodians to go on the rampage, she never said any of that stuff and you know it. And whatever she did say was several years prior.
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To Dan #136
Khmer don’t change Khmer identity for more than 2000 years from a small Kingdom to a Great Empire and back to a small Kingdom again today. Khmer don’t change identity like Thai even Khmer had been trough in hell; Khmer still love Khmer identity using the letters KH on passport and on internet for Khmer identity wherever Khmer go around the globe today.
Khmer politicians don’t play the nationalist card invading Thailand, but Thai politicians play the nationalist card invading Cambodia and they got caught themselves on their own camera in Cambodia.
Watch this video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ZW1VTWgpg
Do you know why the PAD can use the yellow color, a symbol of the Thai King and no lese-majeste against them? Let me tell you why, because the royal Thai family is behind them. One of the royal Thai families traveled to Cambodia asking Hun Sen to release a PAD member Veera Somswaki from Cambodia jail.
Have you ever seen any country in the world allowing their people yelling and insulting other country on TV everyday like the PAD in Thailand? The yellow PAD can’t win the majority of Thai people but they can go screwing the red shirts in Thailand if Yinglack allow the red shirts to meet Thaksin in Thailand and that’s why you have Hun Sen allowing his free vehicles to pick up the red shirts from border to meet Thaksin in Cambodia and that what this topic is all about.
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To Jon Wright #140
Whatever how Mussolini died, the point is people of Italy killing him for his war crime that is the contrast of Siam people making a war crime dictator Phibun as a Thai prime minister and plus accepting their country changing its name from Siam to Thai by a war crime dictator loser while millions of innocent people of SEA and the allied died without justice.
As to the Thai actress, she did claim Angkor Wat belonging to Thailand when she was interview by journalist on TV. You don’t know it just like the rest of Thai people don’t know it because the Thai govt removed the interview hiding away from Thai people.
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Chivan and Phala: There will never be good relations while ignorance pervades. There’s a huge surplus on both sides.
Regarding Suvanant Kongying: If that interview had really happened then we’d know about it, information like that cannot just be ‘removed’ or ‘hidden’. But it seems in this case that ignorance trumped the truth.
More here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Phnom_Penh_riots
And do we need to flog the Siam->Thai vs Khmers-never-changed-their-identity thing? Where is it leading? The names Kampuchea and Kambuja can never be used again for the Khmer nation because they have been forever despoiled. So aren’t both sides equal on this matter?
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#138 Phala
“As to the Thai Embassy burning, it was created by Thailand itself.”
Curious point of view. Can you elaborate?
“Cambodia’s market was burned by the Thai armies at Preah Vihear Temple costing over one million and Preah Vihear temple itself was very damaged by the Thai tanks!!!!”
This exactly what I mean about the way in which these issues are used by both sides to whip up nationalist fervour.
“Khmer people love their temples and they do anything to protect their temples.”
How do you feel about Phimai (Korat Province), Phanom Rung (Buriram Province), Prasat Meumg Singh (kanchanaburi Privince) or Wat Chao Chan (Sukhothai Province)?….. Or indeed Wat Phu in Champassak Province in Laos…. All of these are Khmer temples.
Which province are you from, if you don’t mind me asking?…. Unless you are spoof Khmer…. This thread has been getting surreal of late and is drifting far away from the subject of Nick’s article.
#39 Phala “You like[d] the Bangkok Post?”
Not particularly, no.
#41 Chivan “Khmer politicians don’t play the nationalist card”
Ho, ho, ho.
“Have you ever seen any country in the world allowing their people yelling and insulting other country on TV everyday like the PAD in Thailand?”
Yes.
“Thailand and that’s why you have Hun Sen allowing his free vehicles to pick up the red shirts from border to meet Thaksin in Cambodia and that what this topic is all about.”
Very elaborate way of getting back to the subject of the motor pool.
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@Jon Wright #140
OK, you are right about Benito Mussolini, he was shot, but you only said he was shot not hung, you only said shot and hung after I gave you source.
If Thai actress did not say Angkor Wat belonging to Thailand, why did Khmer go burning the Thai embassy? If Siam King did not steal stone pieces of Angkor why did Khmer people go killing the Siam armies? Whatever she said was in the times that Thaksin in trouble with the lese-majeste law and Thaksin was overthrew by the military coup a few years later.
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@Jon Wright #143
Thailand with Yingluck is continuing to protest against the ICJ verdict, so for you Thailand against the ICJ verdict will have peace with Cambodia? Just a few days ago there was an exchange fire again at the Cambodia-Thai border because a Thai soldier blew up himself losing his leg on landmines, so other Thai soldiers fired on Cambodian soldiers because they thought the sound of landmines was Cambodian soldiers firing at them.
Thailand already removed thousand of websites so why not Thailand can just remove the Thai actress interview?
Anyone can join Wikipedia for free and they can write anything what they wanted.
Don’t you know that schools & universities recommend students not to use Wikipedia as the real source?
Kambuja is in Sanskrit and Cambodia and Kampuchea are derived from Sanskrit Kambuja. Kampuchea is a home of Khmer people speaking Khmer. United States of America is a home of American people speaking English. Australia is a home of Australian people speaking English. Do you think Deutschland and Germany or Switzerland and Schweiz never be used for the German and for the Suisse again?
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@Dan #144
Thailand created itself for the burning Thai embassy because Thai people included the Thai actress were taught by their leader Phibun the father of Thai people teaching Thai people that Thailand lost lands and temples to Cambodia.
The Cambodia’s market was burned and destroyed by the Thai military after UNESCO listing Preah Vihear Temple as world heritage and got nothing to do with the nationalist of both sides.
It got to do with the Thai military who overtrew Thaksin.
How do I feel about Phimai (Korat Province), Phanom Rung (Buriram Province), Prasat Meumg Singh (kanchanaburi Privince) or Wat Chao Chan (Sukhothai Province)?….. Or indeed Wat Phu in Champassak Province in Laos…. All of these are Khmer temples?
I feel proud to be born as Khmer because my Khmer ancestors left the mark of my Khmer heritage everywhere in Southeast Asia telling Khmer children that Khmer was an Empire building many beautiful temples in Southeast Asia and Khmer Empire was a home welcome all ethnics included Tai, Lao, Viet and others who escaped from the Mongols invading China that these people have to use Khmer culture today.
Sorry, I don’t tell which province I am from
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Phala:
Mussolini was not ‘hung’ in any normal sense of the word. His corpse was hung upside down by a meat hook.
> “why did Khmer go burning the Thai embassy?”
Ignorance. Sheer stupid ignorance.
> “Thailand already removed thousand of websites”
Incorrect. And the fact that those webpages that they attempt to ‘remove’ can still be accessed just illustrates the absurdity of your hypothesis.
> “Anyone can join Wikipedia for free and they can write anything what they wanted”
Get on with it then. I challenge you. It’s a damn sight more difficult than endless top-of-the-head irrelevances in the comments section of a blog.
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Thanks for these more recent comments:
For the last time — let’s pull this back on to the topic of Thaksin’s rally in Cambodia. Unless it has direct relevance to that topic it won’t be approved.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
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Its impressive to look all this red shirts coming in Cambodia for follow Thaksin. Its very rare for a politic man!
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